1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: When Do We Want It? The name may have changed 3 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: from George Floyd, Brianna Taylor or Tamir Rice to Tyrene Nichols, 4 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: but the chance for justice were the same as protesters 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: in Memphis came out to call for change because another 6 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: black man was killed in a traffic stop doing a 7 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: lot right now. Video footage shows five police officers savagely 8 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: and repeatedly beat kick, pepper spray and shocked Nickels, screaming 9 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: profanities at him while he's pinned to the ground and 10 00:00:51,120 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: calls out for his mother mom. Nichols is then propped 11 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: against a car, bloodied and handcuffed until a stretcher is 12 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: finally brought. More than twenty minutes later, he died in 13 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: the hospital. Three days later. The five black officers were 14 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: fired and charged with murder, kidnapping, and other crimes. Their 15 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: elite unit has been disbanded. My guest is David Harris, 16 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: a professor at the University of Pittsburgh Law School and 17 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: a leading authority on law enforcement and racial profiling. Obviously, 18 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: this isn't the first time we've seen police turning a 19 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: traffic stop into a deadly encounter. Why does this keep happening? 20 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: Why aren't police learning from prior incidents? Well, there's so 21 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: many answers to that, but number one, policing is hyper 22 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: localized in this country. Every department is its own little island, 23 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: and so some are doing very well at any one 24 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: time and some less. So some learn some lessons and 25 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: not others more and that we keep falling back into 26 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: some of the same old traps as we have problems 27 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: crop up, and you can trace the use of the 28 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: specialized units that kind of get a set of instructions 29 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: from police leadership or even politicians, go out there and 30 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: get those bad guys will back you up. And we're 31 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: surprised when a catatrophe like this occurred. Number Three, we 32 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: are still sad to say, training police in a way 33 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: that gives them the feelings that it's it's a war 34 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: out there and that's the culture they're all seats in. 35 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: And when you do that, you know, war has casualties, 36 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: and you know you you hold this scorpion unit or 37 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: whatever unit in your own city up for public acclaim 38 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: and look at all the good they're doing. Are we 39 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: really surprised? You can send out a specialized unit and 40 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: say we're going to focus on these racers and things 41 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: like that, the people who are making interstate highways into 42 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: their private racetracks and doing it through neighborhoods. But this 43 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing that used to force is just off 44 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: the chart and yet far too common. It's hard to 45 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: watch this When you look at it, do you see 46 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: what went wrong? Or did everything go wrong from the start. Well, 47 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: we don't know exactly how it started, June. That's one 48 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: of the things people need to keep in mind. We 49 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: don't know what happened before the action that we first 50 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: see in these horrifying videos, and at that point it's 51 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: already under way. They're pulling this man out of his 52 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: car with an amount of force and a kind of 53 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: almost anger, screaming Adam. And so for that seems hard 54 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: to justify. We just don't know why it happened. But 55 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: as far as what goes wrong, I mean, you can 56 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: point to a number of different things. I would just 57 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: hit a couple and that is number one. When force 58 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: is used, it has to be used in a way 59 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: that it's completely be justified. And officers are highly trained. 60 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: And what that means what it looks like they clearly 61 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: stepped over the line here. I don't think there's any 62 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: doubt about that. But not one of these officers said 63 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: to another one, Okay, I think you got this. You 64 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: don't need that. You know, there were any number of 65 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: points in which somebody should have said enough. There's training 66 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: now that is being given in some places in the 67 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: United States that focuses on that moment, the duty to intervene. 68 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: In fact, Tennessee had a law proposed just like that, 69 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: there would be a legal duty to entering. I don't 70 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: think the law pass. But this is the case now 71 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: in law enforcement policy across the country, and yet nobody 72 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: did that here. So that's number one. Number two. I 73 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: hear a lot about training, and a lot about they 74 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: need better this and better than that. There's a fundamental 75 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: lack of humanities here. I mean, you know, with officers 76 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: congratulating each other and doing this, paying no attention to 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: the man with obvious medical st us. This is as 78 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: much a problem of the culture of this department. If 79 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: it will allow something like this, If it will allow 80 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: this kind of conduct, and the officers don't exhibit any 81 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: feeling like something wrong happened here, This tells you that 82 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: this is not just some kind of training deficit. It 83 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: is in fact something deeply wrong in the culture and 84 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: standards of this department. And how all that sits together. 85 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: All five officers are being charged with second degree murder? 86 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: What's the burden on the prosecution to prove that charge? 87 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: Any criminal trial against police officers will be an uphill 88 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: battle for prosecutors, even ones where there is video that 89 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: is still true, even in the era of George Floyd, 90 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: because juries always give police officers the benefit of the doubt. 91 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: It is less true than it used to be, but 92 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: it is still true. So to prove a second degree 93 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: murder under the Tennessee statute that has been applied here, 94 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: the prosecution will have to prove that this killing was 95 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: done knowing that death could result. So, in other words, 96 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: they don't have to prove premeditation like they would for 97 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: first degree murder, but they will have to prove that 98 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: the actions were taken that killed this man knowing that 99 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: the death of the man would occur. And that's gonna 100 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: be a tough sell. I think it's going to be 101 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: tough to do because some people will react to this 102 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: by saying, well, okay, maybe they meant to really beat 103 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: the guy up, but they certainly didn't want him to die, 104 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: and that is likely to be the defense on the 105 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: murder charge. And where will the use of force question 106 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: come in. I don't know how you defend their use 107 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: of force here when the guy was on the ground 108 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: saying okay, okay, I'm on the ground. I don't understand 109 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: how you could even justify that. In most respects, you can't. 110 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: What we've seen in other trials like this, all the 111 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: way back to the Rodney King trial, which you may remember, 112 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: the first time those officers the charge, they were acquitted, 113 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: and they had to go to federal court and they 114 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: were convicted. The ways that these cases are sometimes defended, 115 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: especially even with the video, is that the defense kind 116 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: of pulls the video apart, frame by frame almost and 117 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: almost brings it down to the level of individual bites 118 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: or individual molecules, and tries to explain away what happened 119 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: with the idea that the officers in this particular situation 120 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: had reason to be fearful for their own safety. It 121 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: is hard for me to see how that's a point 122 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: that can carry the day, given what we see in 123 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: these awful, awful videos. But that's what it will look like. 124 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: That's how they will try to justify that used to force. 125 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: In the high profile police involved deaths that come to mind, 126 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 1: it was usually white police officers and a black victim. 127 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: Here the officers were black and so is the victim. 128 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 1: Does that change the conversation from racism to systemic problems 129 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: with police? I think to some degree it does. But 130 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: it really shouldn't surprise anybody that this could be five 131 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: black officers and a department with a black chief who 132 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: came in as a reformer. What you're looking at here 133 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: is not anything perhaps to do with the attitudes of 134 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: the individual officers. You're looking at at these five officers 135 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: who sit into an agency a system that allows this 136 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: kind of behavior or encourages it. You layer that on 137 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: top of all that we know about how the broader 138 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 1: culture of society and the culture of police devalue and 139 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: fear black people, particularly black men. There's a lot of 140 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: measurement of this over many, many years, and you know, 141 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: hundred of studies. Um people look at black people as 142 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: sources of violence and criminality and danger. You put all 143 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: that together, Black people are breathing in that same cultural 144 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: air and it isn't really a surprise that people within 145 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: that police department who have been praised for their actions 146 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: out on the street, even if their own communities were complaining. 147 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: There's a lot of heavy handed tactics going on out here. 148 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: We don't like this. It's no surprise that it ends 149 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: up like this, even if all the officers are black. 150 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: It is the culture and the operations of that police 151 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: department that allows this kind of conduct to happen, and 152 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: they're part of that structure too, whether they're white or 153 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: black or something else. How do you think the police 154 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: department handled this here? Because within two weeks the officers 155 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: have been fired. Within three weeks all had been charged 156 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: with second degree murder, and then you know, the police 157 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: chief condemn their actions and then they release the video. 158 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: What do you think of the police department's response after 159 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: the incident? After the incident, especially knowing that there was 160 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: video and what it would show, because they knew it 161 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: before the public saw it, they reacted in a way 162 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: that was appropriate and relatively swift. I've been working in 163 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: this area for long enough that I can remember very easily. Uh, 164 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, the police department and the district attorney would 165 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: kind of put the clamps on this, put out no 166 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: information worth just doing an investigation. You've got to give 167 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: us time, and months and months later there'd be some 168 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: kind of an announcement on a Friday afternoon. They know 169 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: that the public won't stand for that anymore. So that 170 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: represents an important change, not just in Memphis, but in 171 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: a lot of places. We know that they do not 172 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: do that like they used to. Though it goes on 173 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: untill Sometimes the problem is not in their reaction to it. 174 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: The problem is what led up to it. So the 175 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: reaction all comes later, and that's you know, that's good. 176 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: They're off duty, they're criminally charged. It looks like an 177 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: appropriate reaction. But we've got to do what we need 178 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: to do ahead of time so these things don't happen 179 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 1: at all, or they become just incredibly rare. And right 180 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: now it just keeps happening because we're not doing the 181 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: things we need to do in order to stop it. 182 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: We're putting out a specialized crime suppression unit, and we're 183 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: telling them go out there and do the thing, and 184 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: we'll back you up and will applaud you, and then 185 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: we're surprised when things go terribly wrong like this I 186 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: wrote a whole book about an incident like this in 187 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh ten years ago. So this isn't new. It isn't 188 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: just Memphis. We have to stop reaching for answers like 189 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: that that lead to this place. We have to get 190 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: away from the culture of fear and the culture of 191 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: war as a way to do domestic policing. This isn't 192 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: really a failure of training in that sense. They're doing 193 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: exactly what they were trained to do. Um they're training 194 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: to go to war in their own communities. And that's 195 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: what has to stop. We have to have a policing 196 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: domestically that is about the escalation communication all when we 197 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: can do it. You can't do that in every situation, 198 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: but right now it's about ask, tell, make force. I'm 199 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: in charge, you're not. We scream at you. You do 200 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: what we want, and we'll do to you what we want. 201 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: That's what has to change, David. These police officers were 202 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: wearing body cams and knew they were being filmed, and 203 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: yet they still went ahead and did this. So have 204 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: the body cams and the bystander videos changed anything. It 205 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: has changed things. I think those are part of the 206 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: reason of cameras that we frankly have the charges and 207 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: that we have the officers to smith other on the film. 208 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: I don't think that would happen because it's simply untenable. 209 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: If that film is out there and we know it's 210 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: going to come to light at some point, is untenable 211 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: to just go about business as usual when you know 212 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: the public that's going to see that. And we've seen 213 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: that in some important cases. And you think of that 214 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: case with the man in South Carolina who was shot 215 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: in the back as he was running away. This is 216 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. The police officer had signed 217 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: off on that saying yeah, yeah, he did this, he 218 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: did that, so I had to shoot him. That guy 219 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: was going back on duty the next day, and then 220 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: came the bystander cell phone video and he's in prison 221 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: for murder now. So it has changed a lot. What 222 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: people need to understand is that it doesn't change everything. 223 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: I think there was an expectation those cameras were sold 224 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: to us as this will change everything in policing, and 225 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: that's just not true. They don't they only see what's 226 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: in front of the lens. There are perspective biases that 227 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: are involved, and if it's not turned on we know 228 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: in this case, we don't know what happened before those 229 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: cameras came on. It's still going to leave blank spots 230 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: in the record. But what you see here is very, 231 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: very important. It takes certain aspects of a confrontation in 232 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: many cases away from being disputed. You know, you can 233 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: argue about interpretation later, but you cannot argue that this 234 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: guy wasn't beaten and beaten badly and beaten unnecessarily. And 235 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: that is really fundamental and important. So cameras are not 236 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: silver bullets. That has changed everything, but they have made 237 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: it difference. I know that there's a lot of talk, 238 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: and in fact, some cities have actually passed ordinances that 239 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: police officers shouldn't be involved in traffic stops. Well, that 240 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: stopped this, just to have the police officers not involved 241 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: in any kind of traffic enforcement, well most of that action, 242 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: And you're quite right, there's a move towards that. It's 243 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: still pretty early to see how much traction that has, 244 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: but I do see in a number of cities, including 245 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: in my own city of Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, across the state, 246 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: that some cities and police departments are limiting police power 247 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: to make certain kinds of stops. And then there are 248 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, a handful of jurisdictions that are creating separate 249 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: non police forces to do a traffic enforcement. Will it 250 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: stop this? Will that ladder kind? If it was not 251 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: armed police, you certainly couldn't have a situation like this. 252 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: But what all these efforts are designed to do. The 253 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: challenge they are designed to me is number one, to 254 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: to minimize the chance that will have some kind of 255 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: catastrophe likens that some kind of routine traffic stop will 256 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: turn into a disaster of this type. And number two 257 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: and this is actually more common. I mean, this is 258 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: a terrible, terrible tragedy for Hyree and the men's family, 259 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: But in a more common scenario, police are using traffic 260 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: offenses just to stop people and investigate them when there 261 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: is no evidence that they've done anything wrong. The officer 262 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: just doesn't like the looks of them or something, and 263 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: they use traffic offenses at pretext to stop people. And 264 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: where they do that, and it's very common across states 265 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: and cities and towns you see in the data, assuming 266 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: the agency keeps the data. But this is something that 267 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: is experienced disproportionately by people of color, black and brown, people. 268 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: What those efforts will do is not just minimize the 269 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: chance of a catastrophe like this. What they will also 270 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: do is stop police department from interfering with drivers who 271 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: happen to be black or brown because they think they're 272 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: up to something. That kind of police think almost never 273 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: recovers guns, almost never recovers other contrabands, and is just 274 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: an irritant that erodes the relationship between police and the 275 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: people they're supposed to serve. Do they occasionally get a gun, 276 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: sure to the occasionally get some marijuana or maybe even 277 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: something else. Of course they do, but it's an inefficient 278 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: use of resources that has done damage to the relationship 279 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: that we need between police and those are supposed to serve. 280 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: The Justice Department is investigating whether nichols civil rights were violated. 281 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: Do they seem to be jumping in sooner to do 282 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: these investigations. I think to some extent they are. You 283 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: have to remember that when the Justice Department is investigating, 284 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: the Justice Department is part of the administration that is 285 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 1: in power so um during the Obama administration to presidential terms. 286 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: There's a unit within the Justice Department that was created 287 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: before Obama to investigate cases like this, and they did 288 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: more of these kinds of civil rights police misconduct cases 289 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: than I think had occurred in the prior eight years 290 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: under Bush, for sure, And the reason for that is 291 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: different administrations prioritized different issues. Bush took the emphasis off 292 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: that with his attorneys general, but during Obama they really 293 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: did speed that up. Under Trump, the opposite happened. They 294 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: slowed those down. They took away all the Justice Department 295 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: attorneys that they could who were focused on that issue 296 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: and deployed them to other issues. Now with the Biden administration, 297 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: they are responding rapidly. Once again, it's really a question 298 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: of resources because that unit within the Justice Department only 299 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: has so many lawyers, and there are eighteen thousand police 300 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: departments in this country. So you're only going to really 301 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: get a response when they're a real problem, usually a 302 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: problem that the local actors cannot or will not address. 303 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: That's when you'll see them. Thanks David. That's Professor David 304 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: Harris of the University of Pittsburgh Law School. Hill Musk 305 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: is no stranger to the witness stand. The billionaire has 306 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: been nicknamed teflon Elon for his ability to testify and 307 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: escape unscathed. Musk took the stand in trials in Los 308 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: Angeles and in Delaware in and he won in both cases. Now, 309 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: at a trial in San Francisco, Musk is defending the 310 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: infamous tweets from four and a half years ago about 311 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: taking Tesla private with funding secured. Tesla investors contend the 312 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: tweets amounted to lines that cost them big losses from 313 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: wild stock price swings over a ten day period before 314 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: the pla was abandoned. Billions of dollars and damages are 315 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: on the line. Just how effective was Musk on the 316 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: stand this time around? Here to answer that question is 317 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Legal reporter Joel Rosenblatt, who has been covering the trial. 318 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: Joel tell us about his demeanor on the stand and 319 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: whether he interacted with the jurors at all. He interacted 320 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: very much with the jurors, more than any witness I've seen, actually, 321 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: in terms of eye contact and really, you know, in 322 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: his responses indicating that he's talking to them and not 323 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: just responding to attorneys. He was quiet. He was quieter 324 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: than I expected, and he also was even even muttering 325 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: at times, I'm told by our star Tesla reporter of 326 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: my colleague, Dannah Hall that he speaks like that, that 327 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: that's pretty normal. But he was halting and muttering and 328 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 1: quiet for much of his testimony. I was surprised by 329 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: that because he has been on the stand before, and 330 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: I think maybe every time it's worked out for him. Yeah, 331 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if he has a you know, a 332 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: thousand percent batting average, but but a good one. And 333 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: I think it's worked out again for him here. You 334 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: can tell it's something of rehearsal. I mean, he's he's 335 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: obviously practiced, because there were times also where the Plants 336 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: attorney did get to him and it felt like the 337 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: real Elon Musk came out and it got tense and 338 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: kind of bitter. There was a quick but bitter exchange 339 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: between them. So I think he's kind of you know, 340 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: maybe it's something of an act that he's putting on 341 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: the stand for this case anyway, and so far pretty successful, 342 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, So what's the goal for his side? 343 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: What does he have to do on the stand? Right? Well, 344 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: so he's accused of defrauding investors with his tweet in 345 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and eighteen telling the world to a tweet 346 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: that he was considering taking Tesla private. That's the exact 347 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: word consider, which is key, and the key part of 348 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: the case is really the next sentence in which he 349 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: indicated that he has funding secured to do that. And 350 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: that's the part that the sec previously and now shareholders 351 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: in the class action are saying was fraudulent. His goal 352 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: is to prove that that's that's not the case, that 353 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't fraudulent at all, and he's done that by 354 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: saying that he had the funding at his kind of fingertips. 355 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: Jurors are being asked to look at the world through 356 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: Elon's view, through the lens of Elon Musk, and in 357 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: that world, you can do a deal on a handshake 358 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: with the Saudis. So he claims that he had funding 359 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: secured through a handshake deal with the Public Investment Fund 360 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: of Saudi Arabia, and in Elon Musk's world, that's how 361 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: you can do business. And that's good enough to tell 362 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: the world that you had funding secured. Where the judge 363 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: rule about the tweets already, well, Junior are familiar with 364 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: summary judge him and so right, this is a pre 365 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: trial finding by the judge that the tweets were false 366 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: number one, and also reckless. Right. So those are kind 367 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: of two of the hurdles, two of the four to five, 368 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: depending on how you kind of count these things, hurdles 369 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: that the shareholders have to clear in order to prove 370 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: that he committed fraud. The real trick here is that 371 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: they have to prove and the jury has to find 372 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: that Elon Musk knew he knew that the tweet was false, 373 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: and he knew that it was reckless. In other words, 374 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: not only did he know that it was false, but 375 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: that he also knew it would be material to the shareholders, 376 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: meaning you know, important to them, are meaningful in their 377 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: investment decisions. And he's saying, no, it wasn't false. I 378 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: did have funding secured and I like sort of a 379 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: handshake deal. Yeah. And there's kind of a logical I 380 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: think it's it's a confusing logical disconnect in the case 381 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: because he is saying he's not allowed to say. He's 382 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: not allowed to say this wasn't false because the judge 383 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: is determined that it's false. But he has an effect. 384 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: He is an effect saying it's it's false by saying, well, 385 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't untrue because for the reason you just said, 386 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: and I described earlier he had the funding secured. He 387 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: also injected something completely new into the trial that I 388 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: think took the Plans lawyers a bit by surprise, which 389 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: is he said not only that I could divest myself 390 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: of my privately held company SpaceX if needed, in order 391 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: to fund a transaction to take Tesla private. And so 392 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: that's another example of how well it was false according 393 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: to judge, but in my world, hardly untrue. So if 394 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: he had the funding secured according to him, why didn't 395 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: he go through with taking tests A private? You know, 396 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: we've got to hear a good explanation of that, except 397 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: that Tesla did issue a statement about ten days later 398 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: after the tweet in question, explaining why they not going 399 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: to Essentially, Ellen decided against it is the explanation that 400 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: we've heard in court, and he said, understand that, you know, 401 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: he long contemplated taking Tesla private, but that those benefits 402 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: and drawbacks to both private and publicly health companies in 403 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: the end, he decided that he wasn't going to do it. 404 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: The tweet he keeps referring to the August eight I 405 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: believe it is two thousand eighteen tweets in which he 406 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: says I am considering taking Tesla private. They put a 407 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: lot of emphasis on the word considering to mean that 408 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: something he was contemplating, not that he was going to 409 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: do it. Some of the interesting things that I thought 410 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: that you wrote about where he had all kinds of 411 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: discussions with other billionaires, c e O s and bank 412 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: people about this. Yeah, there's you know, it's the trial 413 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: has been a real window. It has been a window 414 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: into his world in which you know, he's operating having 415 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: dinner with I mentioned, you know, the governor from the 416 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund. Uh, he was there. The 417 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: Saudi's came here to northern California to the factory. You know, 418 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: he's operating with Larry Ellison, all kinds of bankers and 419 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: investors with holdings in Tesla, and so it's just this 420 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: kind of rarefied, very wealthy world that he's operating in 421 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: and that the jurors have had a window onto. Were 422 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: there any lighthearted moments or you know, any big reveals 423 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: about him, Well, there was two that come to mind. 424 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: One lighthearted moment was when the lawyer for the shareholders 425 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: just kind of confused or he's got a lot of 426 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: things in his mind and turned in his questioning and 427 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: referred to Elon Musk as Mr Tweet and uh, and 428 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: I haven't done my own kind of research to determine this, 429 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: but apparently that's that's kind of taken hold and in 430 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: the Twitter verse and the Twitter world and and beyond 431 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: where I think he's now kind of taken on the 432 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: name Mr Tweet or so I've heard. So that's that 433 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: was one kind of lighthearted moment. And in those kinds 434 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: of moments, he always kind of also turned it, not 435 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: necessarily back on the lawyer, but turned it around in 436 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: a way in which he kind of agrees that maybe 437 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: that would be a good name for him. That was 438 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: one lighthearted moment. Another kind of strange and darker moment, 439 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: maybe by design, was when his own lawyer, on cross examination, 440 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: asked him about his childhood. He was I think born 441 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: in South Africa at least raised there until he emigrated 442 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: to the United States, and the lawyer asked began to 443 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: ask about his childhood, and he asked, how how was 444 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: your taught? What was it like? And he got very quiet, 445 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: it almost seemed as if he was going to cry. 446 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: And Elon must said, not not good, and his own 447 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: lawyer kind of was beginning to probe that and it 448 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: was just either really well rehearsed or or something else 449 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: kind of stranger because Elon Musk didn't want to talk 450 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: about that. He refused to, he didn't, he didn't go 451 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: any further, and now was a kind of a strange, 452 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 1: intense moment. I don't I don't know what that is 453 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: about his childhood, that it was not good. It's hard 454 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: to imagine that his lawyer didn't go over most aspects 455 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: of his testimony with him. But you never know. Now 456 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: what about the jurors where they engaged, interested, captivated? You know, 457 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: I I'm kind of like, notoriously bad at reading juries. 458 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: Most people are. I think I'm glad to hear that, 459 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: because I've gotten it wrong too many times to to say. 460 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: But I will say this about this jury, they seem 461 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: most of them seem quite attentive, and many of them 462 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: taking notes. It seems to me of the juries I've watched, 463 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: the most studious jury I've ever seen. They seem really 464 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: to be listening very carefully. And how important is his 465 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: testimony to the case against him? Does the case depend 466 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: on his testimony? You know, you and I have talked 467 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: about the case that the criminal prosecution which is quite 468 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: different of Elizabeth Holmes, but similarity there besides security fraud 469 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: is uh and that let me be clear that one's 470 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: criminal in the case of Elizabeth Holmes and and Elon 471 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: Musk faces civil liability. But the similarity there is that, 472 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Holmes, you know, when you have the defendants 473 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: like that, who takes the witness stand, you know, the 474 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: case just terms on that. I mean, there's a lot 475 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: left in this case. There's a lot we're gonna hear 476 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: from any more experts. But it seems to me that 477 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: when you have a named defendant of such notoriety, that 478 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: when that person takes the stand, it seems like the 479 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, I think the case turns on that testimony. 480 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: And it's an interesting it's a great question in this 481 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: case in particular because Elon Musk his lawyers have been 482 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: an interesting thing. They've used a lot more time than 483 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: the Planeffs lawyers on the cross examination of him, in particular, 484 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: so there seemed to be burned all of their time. 485 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: You know, they have an eighteen hours I think allotted 486 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: to each side, and must slayers are using all of 487 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: their time on cross examinations, I think to kind of 488 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: turn the planiff's case against them immediately with each witness, 489 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: and they did that. They've done that effectively, I think, 490 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: and and in and in particular with the Lord Musk. Well, 491 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot more to go in this trial. Thanks 492 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 1: so much, Joe. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Joe Rosenblatt, and 493 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. 494 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 495 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 496 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, 497 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 498 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: week night at ten BM Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso, 499 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg