1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 3: And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 3: a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 3: two working parents who love our careers and our families. 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. 8 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 9 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 10 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: the most out of life. 12 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura, and 13 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: in this episode, I am going to be interviewing Sheena Ayengar, 14 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: who is a professor at Columbia's Graduate School of Business. 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: She is the author of two books, one called The 16 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: Art of Choosing, which a number of people have seen 17 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: her pretty famous Ted talk on that topic. She's also 18 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: the author of a new book called Think Bigger. So, Sarah, 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: are you thinking bigger these days? 20 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 4: I don't know. I started looking. 21 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 3: I haven't read her book yet, although I am actually 22 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 3: super intrigued by it, and so I was looking at 23 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 3: Amazon reviews as one does, and I was slightly intimidated 24 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 3: by the idea of thinking bigger. Like sometimes I find 25 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 3: that a phrase like that sounds like it applies to 26 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 3: specifically an entrepreneur who is going to grow their business 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 3: and like get billions from some venture capitalists and ultimately 28 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 3: like go public, like and I don't really. 29 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 4: Have aspirations of that. I don't even know if you do. 30 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: So I'm like, is this one of those books that 31 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 3: like sounds really cool, but like won't really apply to me. 32 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 3: But then when I was reading the reviews, I didn't 33 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 3: really get that sense. So I'm really really curious to 34 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 3: hear this interview and to delve Moore into what she's doing, 35 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 3: because I think it's a fascinating topic of how one 36 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: might think bigger, even in unconventional ways. 37 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, I mean because it's about innovation in general, 38 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: which again it's not innovation is not like huge company 39 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: doing something or even just you know, Leonardo da Vinci 40 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: coming up the helicopters in the fourteen hundreds. It's more 41 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: how do you solve problems? And part of that is 42 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: even learning to phrase things as problems and you encounter 43 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: as a situation and you break it down into a 44 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: series of problems that you then you're asking questions and 45 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: coming up with solving that, and I think, you know, 46 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: she has come up with some pretty systematic ways to 47 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: do this, and one fascinating thing about how she comes 48 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: to this, as we talk about in the interview, she 49 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: has been blind since childhood. And if you think about 50 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: navigating life, like building a career at raising a family 51 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: while blind, there are a series of problems that you 52 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: then need to solve that you know many of us 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: don't necessarily even think about. But a question of like 54 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: how do I go on a vacation if you like 55 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: to travel solo, for instance, or you know, how do 56 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: I go bike riding? We talk about that, And so 57 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: she's had to navigate the world through this lens of 58 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: constantly breaking things down into smaller questions. And it turns 59 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: out that the that's a really cool way to think 60 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: about any problem. 61 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 3: That's super cool. There was a classmate of Mina Williams 62 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: who was blind. She was super smart, and I remember 63 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: you could get like a job reading textbooks out loud. 64 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: I think they were specifically for her. And I actually 65 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 3: did that job for about five minutes. But then I 66 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: found out that it's really hard because you know, if 67 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: you mess up, you kind of have to like start over, 68 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 3: and it turned out not to be the job for me. 69 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 4: But yeah, she was pretty inspiring just to go to college. 70 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, it's like recording audiobooks. It turns 71 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: out to be exactly like recording audiobooks, something that we've 72 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: had to do in the past. But anyway, it's a 73 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: great interview. I really enjoyed talking to Sina. So let's 74 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: go ahead with a Angar about thinking bigger, the art 75 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: of choosing, and all sorts of other wonderful things. Well, 76 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Sena Angar to 77 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: the program. I'm interviewing her today. Sarah can't be with us, 78 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: but Sheena, could you say hello and introduce yourself to 79 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: our listeners. 80 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 5: Hi, my name is Sheena Ian and I am a 81 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 5: faculty member at the Columbia Business School and I'm glad 82 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 5: to be here today. 83 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: Wonderful And you are also the mother of a teenage son, 84 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: is that correct? 85 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 5: Well, he's going to turn. 86 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 4: Eighteen just a few weeks. 87 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, and he's been wanting me to give him freedom 88 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 5: for all these years, and now I'm noticing he's getting 89 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 5: a little afraid. 90 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: Oh no, it's quite a stage. Is he finishing high 91 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: school this year? 92 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 5: Yep, and he just accepted college, so he's riding high 93 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 5: a little. 94 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, at least you guys have cleared that hurdle. 95 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: You've gotten through this. We can all congratulate you on that. 96 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 5: Thank you. 97 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: And there are many fascinating things about your life that 98 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: you know we're going to discuss in your books, the 99 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: art of choosing and the new one Think Bigger, but 100 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: also something that's really relevant as we're talking about all 101 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: of this. You have been blind since childhood? Correct? 102 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 4: Yes, well, well what age was it. 103 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 5: Yes, I was born with a rare form of rett 104 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 5: Nightis pigmentosa, so I was born legally blind. I did 105 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 5: have vision, and I kept losing it. It was like 106 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 5: a gradual deterioration. And you know, people seem to think 107 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 5: that there's like a big moment. I wouldn't say that. 108 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 5: It was you know, certain moments I realized, oh, I 109 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 5: couldn't read anymore. Another moment I realized I was really 110 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 5: banging into way too much stuff and I needed a dog. 111 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 5: And another moment I realized someone said, well, why are 112 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 5: you sitting in the dark? And then I realized, oh, 113 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 5: I guess the light isn't on anymore. I guess I 114 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 5: can't see light anymore. 115 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: So it's really I mean, it's a gradual thing. There's 116 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: not one moment where you are yes, especial. 117 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 5: One day and I couldn't see yeah. 118 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: No, So it was a progression through all of this 119 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: and as you were adjusting. But I mean, I've heard 120 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: you talk in other interviews about how being blind and 121 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: also your background as an Indian American or I guess 122 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: Indian Canadian. You were born in Toronto, right, Yes, I 123 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: was born there. Yes, Okay, well Indian Canadian or American, 124 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: which everyone influenced your initial interest in choice as a topic. 125 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about 126 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: how you came to that research interest. 127 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 5: Well as an Indian American actually was raised seek My 128 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 5: parents were very traditional Seeks. I was always aware that 129 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 5: there was two very different narratives around family life and values, 130 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 5: and many of those had to do a choice. You know, 131 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 5: as a Seekh girl, there were lots of things you 132 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 5: were supposed to do because you were quite religious, and 133 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 5: there were lots of rituals that you had to follow 134 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 5: and things that were just so different from American culture, 135 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 5: Like you know, my parents met each other on their 136 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 5: wedding night. It was an arranged marriage. Usually, you know, 137 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 5: kids do the careers that their parents advise, and so 138 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 5: there was this juxtaposition of an American culture where you 139 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 5: were supposed to sort of choose everything for yourself, and 140 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 5: an Indian culture or the culture I had at home. 141 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 5: It it seemed like there was a lot more influence 142 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 5: and input of parents and God, and I suppose that 143 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 5: got me very interested at some level and choice, particularly 144 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 5: because I'm trying to figure out which one I want 145 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 5: to be. And then the other thing I think that 146 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 5: influenced my interest in choice was the fact that I 147 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 5: was blind, and you know, people were always afraid of 148 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 5: me getting hurt or me not being able to do anything. 149 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 5: And it wasn't a matter of American culture or Indian culture. 150 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 5: Everybody was petrified. And so it became a quest to understand, well, 151 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 5: what choices did I really have and what things were 152 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 5: people taking away from me, or choices were people taking 153 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 5: away from me out of fear which I really actually 154 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 5: could do. So maybe they thought I had a limitation, 155 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 5: but I really didn't. And if I couldn't do it, well, 156 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 5: was there a way to solve the problem and create 157 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 5: that possibility for me. And I think that was just 158 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 5: something that I began to sort of zero in on 159 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 5: at a very young age, even before I understood the 160 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 5: word choice. 161 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have a very popular Ted talk on 162 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: this topic on choice, and if people haven't listened to it, 163 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: you should. You start with a hilarious anecdote about being 164 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: in Japan and a restaurant absolutely refusing to serve you 165 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: sugar with your green tea, that that was a simply 166 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: unacceptable choice in Japanese culture, whereas in America, like you 167 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: ask for sugar with whatever drink you want, you know 168 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: they'll give it to you. But you've done some interesting 169 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: research that people maybe are less satisfied when they have 170 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: a larger number of choices. I think you recall reading 171 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: one of your experiments with maybe samples in a grocery 172 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: store Jam. Yes, Yeah, can you talk a little bit 173 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: about that one. 174 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I did a study it's called the Jam Study. 175 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 5: Essentially what I did was like it was a store 176 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 5: that offered people a lot of variety, which at that 177 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 5: time was rare, although today it's fairly common. And we 178 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 5: set up a display, a tasting booth, right near the 179 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 5: entrance of the store with either six different flavors of 180 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 5: jam or twenty four. And it was a very simple study. 181 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 5: We first just looked at in which case were people 182 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 5: more likely to stop and sample some jam, and second 183 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 5: in which case were people more likely to buy a 184 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 5: jar of jam? And it turned out more people stopped 185 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 5: when there were twenty four on display sixty percent versus 186 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 5: forty percent when there was six on display. But when 187 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 5: it came down to buying behavior, of the people who 188 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 5: stopped when they were twenty four on display, only three 189 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 5: percent of them bought a jar of jam, whereas of 190 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 5: the people who stopped when there was six on display, 191 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 5: thirty percent of them bought a jar of jam. Now 192 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 5: that was the first documentation that although people are more 193 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 5: attracted to a larger number of options, when it comes 194 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 5: down to making a choice, they're more likely to make 195 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 5: a choice when they have less than when they have more. 196 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: So that is fascinating, especially as I mean, I can 197 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: see the parallels right now with like online dating, so 198 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: as more of our dating. You know, I'm married, but 199 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: many people listening to this maybe in the dating market 200 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: for instance, you know, it's like infinite choice out there 201 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: on dating profile, and then you know, are people then 202 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: less likely to actually make a choice, like make a 203 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: permanent commitment to someone if they have all that option 204 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: Do you think there's a parallel there. 205 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 5: Well, in my own work with speed dating events, I 206 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 5: ran the first speed dating studies which Malcolm Gladwell wrote 207 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 5: about in his book Blink, and in my own work 208 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 5: there I found quite definitively that the more choices people 209 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 5: have were the more dates they have, the more their 210 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 5: preferences keep shifting, so they forget kind of what they're 211 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 5: looking for in the process. You certainly hear that a 212 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 5: lot anecdotally with the whole swipe culture on Tinder in general. 213 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 5: The observation is that people are less satisfied with the 214 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 5: average date the more dates they go on, even though 215 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 5: they have more options there. Now, whether it's leading to 216 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 5: a change in commitment, it's. 217 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 4: Hard for me to know. 218 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it doesn't seem likely that we're going to 219 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: go more with the sheik model of your parents meeting 220 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: each other on their wedding day. But you know, maybe 221 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: there's a happy medium somewhere in the middle. 222 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 5: What about love is blind? 223 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: I don't know that's true. Well, there you go all right, 224 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: well on that, We're going to take a quick ad 225 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: break and I'll do We'll be right back with more 226 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: from Sena Anger. So I am here with Sena Anger, 227 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: who is talking all things choice and thinking Bigger. And so, Sena, 228 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: you mentioned that growing up blind people were often limiting 229 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: choices just because I mean, they were petrified that you 230 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: were going to hurt yourself or something like that would happen, 231 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: which was quite a thing to be keeping in mind 232 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: when I'm reading through Think Bigger. And one of the 233 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: first things you're talking about is bike riding. So all right, 234 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: so let's let's talk about bike riding and how you 235 00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: navigate that. 236 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 5: Oh well, I have a tandem bike, okay, all right, Yeah, 237 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 5: so I don't sit in the front. 238 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, few because. 239 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 5: I'd love it if there was a moment when I 240 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 5: could finally sit in the front. So if they could 241 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 5: actually develop technology for that that I could sit in 242 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 5: the front, I would be very happy. 243 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, making sure now I have. 244 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 5: To sit them back. So I have a tandem bike, 245 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 5: and I live right across the streets in the river, 246 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 5: and me and so my my favorite buddy to go 247 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 5: biking with which was the one I had in mind 248 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 5: when I wrote that in the book was Juliana and 249 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 5: Juliana and I. We get up really early. We start 250 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 5: at the northern part of Manhattan and we bike along 251 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 5: the river all the way to the tip, and we're 252 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 5: trying to get to Lady Liberty before the sunrise comes up. 253 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: Awesome, that sounds amazing. And we'll get back to Lady 254 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: Liberty because she plays into the story of how we 255 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: think about innovation and new things. But with that, I 256 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: want to talk about some other, you know, problem solving. 257 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: You mentioned as well that like your life has been 258 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: a lot of extra problem solving because there are things 259 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: you want to do and then it's not necessarily always obvious, 260 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: which plays into how you think about, you know, structuring 261 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: questions and solving problems. In particular, I wonder if you 262 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: could talk a little bit about traveling, because you have 263 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: been all over the world. So if you, you know, 264 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: think of a destination you want to go to, so 265 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: how do you go through navigating planning a trip there? 266 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 5: Wow, that's an interesting question. I once was very depressed 267 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 5: over a romantic fallout and I said to my assistant, 268 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 5: you know, where do you think I could go. That 269 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 5: would be NonStop flight in europecause I was in London 270 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 5: at the time, I've just finished teaching that I could 271 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 5: be on a beach. And I discovered it was Sardinia. Okay, yeah, 272 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 5: I knew nothing about this place. Okay, I knew instinctively 273 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 5: that you had to find a hotel that was small, 274 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 5: and I knew I had to call them and tell 275 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 5: them I was blind, to make sure that they wouldn't 276 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 5: freak out when I got there. And so I found 277 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 5: a hotel. It was a boutique hotel. It was all 278 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 5: the water, and they were happy to have me come. 279 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 5: And I just went and I met you know, I 280 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 5: remember I was sitting next to somebody on the plane 281 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 5: and he became a friend. In fact, we're still friends. 282 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 5: Got to the hotel. I had a beautiful room that 283 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 5: was on the water, and I said, you know, I 284 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 5: want to swim in the ocean. And so I said, 285 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 5: so how about if I pay the lifeguard off hours 286 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 5: so that he could watch her, I wouldn't go too far, right, 287 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 5: And sure enough I did that. So I swam twice 288 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 5: a day. I hired somebody in the hotel, someone's kid, 289 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 5: someone who worked there, as a kid for an hour 290 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 5: to show me around the town. And that was it. 291 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 5: I had a great time. One of my favorite trips ever. 292 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 5: I always love Sardinia. 293 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: It's an amazing place, it sounds like, but yeah, it's 294 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: just that series of figuring out, well, what is the problem. 295 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: You know, I want to swim? How do I make 296 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: sure that I can do it safely? Who can help 297 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: me with it? And so the sort of structured approach, 298 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: And that's somewhat what you have your students go through. 299 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 5: That is exactly right, all right, So. 300 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that. What is this process that then, 301 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, you teach your students about innovation and problem solving, 302 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: you know. 303 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 5: And the approach I teach them is I have them 304 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 5: use I have them come up with an entrepreneurial idea. 305 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 5: Not because I'm necessarily trying to make the all entrepreneurs. 306 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 5: I just figured that's a hard enough platform, so to 307 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 5: learn the technique on that, because then you can do 308 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 5: it on anything. But in fact, you can use think bigger, 309 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 5: whether you're trying to you know, plan my trip to Sardinia, 310 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 5: whether you're trying to figure out how to manage this 311 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 5: process of having your kid apply to colleges, which. 312 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 4: By the way, was quite a process, I'm sure. 313 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 5: Or whether it is managing your career and your household, 314 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 5: or whether it is yeah, coming out with an entrepreneurial problem. 315 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 5: So essentially, I would say there's three really important parts 316 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 5: to it. One is what exactly is the problem I'm 317 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 5: trying to solve. So, for example, with the travel thing 318 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 5: I just said, I wouldn't just say, well, how does 319 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 5: a blind person go on a trip? Nobody knows how 320 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 5: to solve that one. Two big it's how do I 321 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 5: navigate gate a successful few days in a hotel on 322 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 5: a beach in Europe where I can't speak the language. 323 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 5: And now you can break it down and think about, okay, 324 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 5: so what do I need to be able to do. 325 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 5: I can take that same approach whether it's my kid 326 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 5: applying to college, break it down, or whether it's how 327 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 5: do I create a business that does X? Whatever X is. 328 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 5: I'll take one of my student groups reduce stress amongst teenagers, 329 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 5: for example. So the first thing is defining the problem. 330 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 5: The second thing is once I've defined the problem, now 331 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 5: I ask myself, do I know of things that have 332 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 5: worked to solve this piece of my problem that I've 333 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 5: either done before or I've seen somebody else do. So 334 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 5: I'm drawing from my experience. And then the same second 335 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 5: thing I'm doing as I'm searching is who else has 336 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 5: had to deal with a similar sort of problem? Right, 337 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 5: so I do learn from other people who can't drive, 338 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 5: how do they navigate going to a destination which normally 339 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 5: people would drive around in? How do other people navigate 340 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 5: when they are limited in their language, skills, et cetera. Right, 341 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 5: so I can still steal information and knowledge from other groups, 342 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 5: and I take all that information and now I have 343 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 5: the pieces to work with as I am trying to 344 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 5: come up with solutions. And third, you have to be 345 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 5: willing to just take all these pieces and just try 346 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 5: out many, many, many different combinations, because many times we 347 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 5: trip ourselves up because we'll come up with one idea 348 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 5: and then we hold to insteadfast. No, you've got to 349 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 5: have an open mind and then keep trying out different 350 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 5: variations of it, to tinker with it to get it right. 351 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and bringing it back to the Statue of Liberty, 352 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: you know, you write and think bigger about how the 353 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: sculptor was pulling stuff from all over the place. I mean, 354 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: he wants to create something. But he's taking the scale 355 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: from one place, he's taking the image from something else. 356 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: That might be his mother's face that's on there. I mean, 357 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: it's just he borrowed from all over the map. It's 358 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: not you know, it's seldom the flash of lightning that 359 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: something just comes to us. 360 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Absolutely, it looks like a flash of lightning 361 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 5: when you put it together. 362 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't just an apple falling 363 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: on your head. And I mean, I think a lot 364 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: of our listeners have you know, like, yeah, innovation sounds great. 365 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: My boss would like me to be more innovative. And 366 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: then what winds up happening at a lot of companies 367 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: is like, Okay, we're gonna get ten of us in 368 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: a room and we're gonna brainstarre ideas. So what's wrong 369 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: with the ten people in the room for ninety minutes 370 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: coming up with ideas? Why is that not as fruitful 371 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:08,479 Speaker 1: as people might hope. 372 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 5: So if you bring ten people in the room together, 373 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 5: if it's just a manner of information sharing that's actually productive. 374 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 5: I mean, provided it's a culture in which people trust 375 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 5: each other and are willing to share information, that can 376 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 5: actually be productive. Where it's unproductive is you get ten 377 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 5: people in the room. I say we got this big problem. 378 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 5: I need ideas. They're just going to go with redundant 379 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 5: ideas top of mind ideas. They need time to actually 380 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 5: think about it, to actually come up with stuff. So 381 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 5: usually what will happen in a brainstorming session is the 382 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 5: first person speaks and everybody just riffs off of that for. 383 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: The entire next ninety minutes exactly. So you know, let's 384 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: say we have an idea, though you say, it's important 385 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: to get feedback on it, but not just the sort 386 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: of like do you like it kind of feedback. What 387 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: are some more useful questions you can ask if you 388 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: are trying to get people to give you feedback on 389 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: your idea, what. 390 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 5: You really need is a third eye. We really need 391 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 5: to see how other people see it. Now, As a mom, 392 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 5: I can tell you that, despite the fact that our 393 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 5: children can be really annoying, one of the benefits you 394 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 5: have from them before they finally learn to behave themselves 395 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 5: is they give you their uncensored opinion that's really. 396 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: Boring, don't like that outfit? Yes exactly, I'll. 397 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 5: Ever forget like that's really boring? The first time I 398 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 5: did my ted doctor, my child listens to it like 399 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 5: I'm going back to my show. 400 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 4: Oh hey, thanks yeah. 401 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 5: Or I wore a dress which I thought had to 402 00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 5: be amazing. He goes, Mom, look like a human rainbow. Okay, Now, 403 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 5: short of having your children, and you know, and obviously 404 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 5: they have their own biases, so I wouldn't rely solely 405 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 5: on them. As honest as they will be. Is you 406 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 5: really need to get what are other people seeing? So, oh, 407 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 5: maybe the quickest way to describe it to you is 408 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 5: to give you an exercise I just recently did, and 409 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 5: that's a cute exercise. It's not a profound exercise, but 410 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 5: it's a cute exercise that can at least show you 411 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 5: the method. So to warm up my students on the 412 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 5: third eye, I have them do this little exercise. And 413 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 5: you could, by the way, do it at the dinner 414 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 5: table or at a cocktail party. 415 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 4: It's kind of fun. 416 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 5: I'll give you a minute to come up with a word. 417 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 5: It's a new word that doesn't exist in the English language. 418 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 5: So you come up with a word, and you come 419 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 5: up with a definition, you know, like schmooth. And I 420 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 5: come up with that word, and I define it in 421 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 5: my head, and I won't define it free rate, and 422 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 5: then I'll write it down. And then what I'll do 423 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 5: is I'll have the students go up to ten different 424 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 5: people in the class and they give them the word smooth, 425 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 5: and then you'll say, well, that reminds me of a schmoozer. Okay, 426 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 5: So get ten other people to tell you how they 427 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 5: would define the word, and you never tell them how 428 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 5: you defined it. So at the end you have your 429 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 5: definition plus ten other definitions for the word you just 430 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 5: came up with. What did you do there? You learned 431 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 5: how other people would see that word, what interpretations came 432 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 5: to their minds. In the process, you're understanding what other 433 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 5: people see, and that enables you to both iterate on 434 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 5: your word and iterate on your definition, so that you 435 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 5: create a word and definition which has alignment between what 436 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 5: you would see and what others would see. 437 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: So seeing the third ey is how other people would 438 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: see something. 439 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 5: You want to create alignment between what the idea that 440 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 5: exists in your mind and how others interpret it. 441 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So I wanted to talk a little bit about 442 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: your you know, academic career here and combining that with parenthood. 443 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: What stage of your academic career. Were you in when 444 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: your when your son was born? 445 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 5: My son was born just as I got tenure. 446 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: Okay, did you wait to get tenures for having him? 447 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: Or was that? 448 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 5: Well? I was trying to get pregnant for good three 449 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 5: or four years. I had just given up, thinking that, 450 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 5: let me just put in my tenure packet and then 451 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 5: I'll worry about it. And then suddenly I got pregnant. 452 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: Well, many things to celebrate at once, right. 453 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 5: I got pregnant as I was putting together my tenure podcast. 454 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: Okay, I gotcha. 455 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 5: I wasn't that thrilled about that part. 456 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 1: But if you, I mean, you have like your graduate 457 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: student and or you know the people you're mentoring, what 458 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: advice do you give them in terms of if they 459 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: were trying to think about how to plot out an 460 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: academic career and having their children, understanding that in many 461 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: cases we cannot plan these things. But as you're thinking 462 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: about it, what are some things to keep in mind? 463 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 5: You have to be really really organized, and you have 464 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 5: to really know your priorities. I mean, I think part 465 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 5: of why I always say you have to be choosy 466 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 5: about choosing is because you really can't do it. All, 467 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 5: and you really are going to. 468 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 1: Have to figure out what your priorities are. 469 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 5: So every day you have to think through which choices 470 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 5: are really worth making if you're going to be able 471 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 5: to men juggle everything. 472 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you say being really organized, I mean, 473 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: what does that actually mean to be organized? 474 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 5: I mean mine, I guess my life's pretty organized. I 475 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 5: also I delegate a lot. That's the other thing that's 476 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 5: really important. I mean, I would say for me anyway, 477 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 5: having a career and a kid, and I'm also divorced, 478 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 5: having my mom nearby was super important. I also understood 479 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 5: just as he was born, I needed a nanny that 480 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 5: wasn't just going to help raise him. That was going 481 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 5: to be my helper. It's going to be my support system. 482 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 5: And in fact, his nanny was like a second mom 483 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 5: to him and still is. I mean, she raised him 484 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 5: and I kept her in the house. She was like 485 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 5: our nanny, housekeeper, everything until he was twelve, and then 486 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 5: she got married and she still comes around anytime. You know, 487 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 5: I'm a big believer that having multiple people there to 488 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 5: help raise your kid is only good for the kid. 489 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 5: The child doesn't have to be purely raised by just 490 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 5: mom and dad. I don't lose anything by having other people. 491 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 5: If anything, I gained by having other people involved. There 492 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 5: are some things that the nanny get away with getting 493 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 5: him to do that I just can't When his hair 494 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 5: looks like a mess. I could say whatever I want 495 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 5: and going anywhere. When the nanny walks in the door, 496 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 5: suld you say, E done, you need to get a haircut. 497 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 5: We're going and get a haircut. Yeah, And he doesn't 498 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 5: have the heart to say no. 499 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: So it's like lots of different people have their have 500 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: their opinions, and he's managing, managing all of you to 501 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: figure it out. And I mean, congrats again on having 502 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: gone through the college admissions process with him. Then I'm curious, 503 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: given that you are thinking about the problem solving process 504 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: with that, what questions should people be asking and what 505 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: problems should they actually be solving with the college admission process. 506 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: Where do you think people kind of go awry with that? 507 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 5: Oh, the whole thing is a miss. I mean, I 508 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 5: don't know how that works in other schools, but as 509 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 5: a kid going to a private school here in Manhattan, 510 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 5: it's a mess. So first off, they are expecting them 511 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 5: to know what they will want and what are looking 512 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 5: for in a college as if they have any idea them, 513 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 5: they're expecting them to know which college is they have 514 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 5: a better shot at, and to trust some algorithm for 515 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 5: telling them which colleges they have a better shot at, 516 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 5: so that they only apply to those, and it takes 517 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 5: the fun out of what it means to apply to college. 518 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 5: So if I were doing it again, I would restructure 519 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 5: the whole process. I think the first question you have 520 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 5: to help you have to get kids excited first. This 521 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 5: is a new thing they're going to be able to 522 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 5: do in their life. So I know, you don't know 523 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 5: what you want to be after you finish college, but 524 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 5: try to come up with different versions of yourself so 525 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 5: that they're at least imagining. Let them imagine first the 526 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 5: different possibilities of who they could be. So they first 527 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 5: have to get excited so that they understand that there 528 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 5: is something in it for them and that it's in 529 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 5: their interest to think about what they want. Then you've 530 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 5: got to expose them to the different kinds of options. 531 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 5: Like right now, what do most kids do and their 532 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 5: parents do? We go straight to these rankings, as if 533 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 5: the rankings really tell us which one's a better fit 534 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 5: for us. Or I mean it's it's a competition on 535 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 5: stuff that may or may not have much relevance to 536 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 5: your specific details. So I think it's about, Okay, what 537 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 5: is the life like and the curricu and education like 538 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 5: of somebody who say, goes to a small college, and 539 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 5: somebody who goes to a large state college, and then 540 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,239 Speaker 5: somebody who goes to one of these IVY leagues. We 541 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 5: act as if it's the schools that are highly ranked 542 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 5: that you know are the best, and there's no subjectivity 543 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 5: around that. The reality is that there really is a 544 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 5: fit and they really are they have different trade offs. 545 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 5: So I think if young people had a chance to 546 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 5: talk to somebody from a state school versus an IVY league, 547 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 5: versus a small college versus some other kind of institution, 548 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 5: at least they begin to see what the trade offs 549 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 5: are so they can begin to say, okay, well I 550 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 5: would rather go to this kind of school for this reason. 551 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 5: So I do think that right now what's happening everybody 552 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 5: is applying to the same schools based on rank, and 553 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 5: then they feel the entire process is completely unfair and 554 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 5: it's not based on merit, And to be fair, I 555 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 5: don't think it is based on merit, because it can't 556 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 5: be if you have sixty thousand people apply to Columbia, 557 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 5: how are they possibly going to make this merit based 558 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 5: when they're accepting four percent? 559 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: It's pretty random. In the end, I think. 560 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 5: It's got to be that you the chooser or the applier, 561 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 5: as a mix of institutions that you're applying to based 562 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 5: on what you want to get out of it, and 563 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 5: it's like daity and then you find the one that fits. 564 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: Well and with so many choices, unfortunately, maybe we're gonna 565 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: be less satisfied with our choice. But that's something you 566 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: could tell us about too. So she know, we always 567 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: end the best of both worlds with a love of 568 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: the week, So this could be anything that you are 569 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: enjoying this week, you know, movie, TV, show, song book, 570 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: just random gadget. Who knows I can go first, so 571 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: give you a minute to think about it. I'm going 572 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: to actually do a shout out to Ted Talks. So 573 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: I watched yours again as I was preparing for this, 574 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: and I think it is such I mean, I know 575 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: there's the whole thing about Ted and whatever, but having 576 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: people distill what they do into twelve to eighteen minutes. 577 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: It's a useful exercise for anyone, Like, even if you 578 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: are never going to give a TED talk in your life, 579 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: to be able to sum up what you do in 580 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: that amount of time and make it interesting to someone 581 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: can force you to get at like the core of 582 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: it and how you would explain to someone. And so 583 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, I wound up watching like ten others while 584 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: I was over at the website because they're pretty cool. 585 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: So how about you, what is exciting for you this week? Well? 586 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 5: I had this really interesting experience just a couple of 587 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 5: days ago. I was invited to give a talk in Washington, 588 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 5: D C. And it was for a Think Bigger and 589 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 5: I didn't know anything about it. It was busy and 590 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 5: so I didn't look it up. And I arrived at 591 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 5: this mansion and DuPont Circle called Whitmore House. Never heard 592 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 5: of it. And I get there and I walk in 593 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 5: any other all there's this co greeting committee and it 594 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 5: turns out that it was created for women. 595 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: It was a. 596 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:06,959 Speaker 5: Women's empowerment home, interesting for the Women's democracy movement. And 597 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 5: on the first floor was the room where Eleanor Roosevelt 598 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 5: used to do her radio shows. 599 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 600 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 5: By the way, Eleanor Roosevelt is my favorite first lady. 601 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 5: She really was a source of inspiration. She's a woman 602 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 5: who really believed on empowerment. She said, I will solve problems, 603 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 5: don't matter what role you've put me in. She was 604 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 5: a real go getter. And then the room in which 605 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 5: I gave my talk was in the room they called 606 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 5: the first Lady's room, and literally there was a portrait 607 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 5: of every first lady. So of course I got my 608 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 5: picture in front of Michelle Obama too. 609 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: You gotta cheer you, I get your Eleanor Roosevelt sidt 610 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: you'r Michelle Obama's sat exactly. 611 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 5: It was kind of cool though also like every it 612 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 5: was about one hundred and fifty people in the room. 613 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 5: But and I had my assistant go around the room 614 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 5: and describe to me what like Martha Washington looked like. 615 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 5: I had no idea that she had all white hair, 616 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 5: and it was kind of cool. 617 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and I love that so and shed you 618 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: just ask her to tell me what you're seeing and 619 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: you get the whole picture that way. Yes, absolutely, all right, Well, Sina, 620 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. If people want 621 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: to learn more about you and your work, and your books. 622 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: Is there somewhere they can come find more. 623 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 5: I'm a regular poster on LinkedIn, Wonderful and Instagram, so 624 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 5: they can definitely follow me there, and you can buy 625 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 5: the book on my web page if you want to 626 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 5: go there, or on Amazon wonderful. 627 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: All right, thanks so much, you know, we really appreciate it. 628 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 5: Thank you. 629 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: Well, that was great. I always love hearing about her work. 630 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: I've you know, watched her Ted Talk years ago, read 631 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: The Art of Choosing years ago, so I was really 632 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: thrilled to get to actually interview her. So that was 633 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: that was pretty cool for me. So, Sarah, you got 634 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: our question for this week. 635 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 3: Yes, this came to me through my blog a post 636 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 3: about screens. But then the person was asking specifically about 637 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 3: kids and spoiler alert, We're going to be doing a 638 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 3: really fun screen series featuring a guest for one of 639 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 3: the episodes, so I'm super excited about that. But I figured, honestly, 640 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 3: these topics are all in our minds. I don't think 641 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 3: we could talk about them too much, honestly. So the 642 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 3: question was about kids and phones, and I think she 643 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 3: was asking, you know, if I was thinking about getting 644 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 3: phones for my kids yet, because her kids are similar 645 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 3: age to mind and asking for them and Laura, So, 646 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 3: how old were your kids when you've caught them phones? 647 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 3: And how much do you monitor their use in terms 648 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 3: of amount and in terms of content. 649 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so our family rule, we have a family role 650 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: at the moment that you get a phone when you 651 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: are eleven, and it's not carved in stone. But that 652 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: is certainly something that I've then been able to say 653 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 1: when children are under eleven, that you need to wait 654 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: for that point, and with most of our kids, that 655 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: corresponds fairly well with when you start middle school, which 656 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: it actually at that point turns out to be helpful 657 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: to be able to reach a child independently of other 658 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: adults in their lives. So you know, they start doing 659 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: stuff with friends that there might not be adult supervision constantly, 660 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: they start making their own choices of whether they are 661 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: staying after school for activities as opposed to it needing 662 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 1: to be decided far ahead of time. They might need 663 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: a ride or you know, if they take the activity bus. 664 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: Want to let me know that, you know, so there's 665 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: just we're going to overnight camps and things like that. 666 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: So just you know, it's helpful to be able to 667 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: reach the child at that point in a way that 668 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: sort of under that age is less of a thing, right, Like, 669 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: somebody's with your eight year old most of the time, 670 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: so you don't have to reach them. I think eleven 671 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: is starting to be at the point where you can 672 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: have more rational discussions about online use and what is appropriate. 673 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: We limit the hours the children have access to their 674 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: electronics obviously school. High schoolers are allowed to have access 675 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: to their electronics like during the day if you know, 676 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: obviously not in class, but you know, in the halls 677 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: or at lunch or whatever. Middle schoolers are not it 678 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: has to be away for the day, so they don't 679 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: have it during school, but you know, and then we 680 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: take it away at night, so the phones sleep and 681 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: Michael and my room they charge there overnight and then 682 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,439 Speaker 1: the kids can get them in the morning. So yeah, 683 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of our rule. I don't and I 684 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: don't want to say this like publicly, my kids listen 685 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: to this that I don't monitor too closely. I think 686 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm fine if they think I do. Weirdly enough, we 687 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: have it set so that I mean, my iPad is 688 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: Ruth's iPad is tied to my phone, so she can 689 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: get my texts sometimes, so it's more bean that I've 690 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: had to censor myself versus other them censoring themselves. But 691 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: in general, we try to just have discussions about what 692 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: is appropriate in terms of communicating with people, the kind 693 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: of texts you can send to people. We have seen 694 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: examples of inappropriate like more just you know, mean or 695 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,359 Speaker 1: something like that, or talking about other people from other 696 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: children that you know. Then they see the text and 697 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 1: need to have a conversation about it. And it's also 698 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: just about physically sort of being around them, like it's 699 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: harder for them to access stuff that they shouldn't. If 700 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: mom and dad are, you know, you're not off on 701 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: your own for hours where nobody's checking in on you. 702 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: So I think that's another thing that you know, we 703 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: try to do as well. 704 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 3: Totally makes sense. I have a question, which is the 705 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 3: rules about the high schoolers having their phone but not 706 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 3: in class, the middle schoolers having it tucked away all day. 707 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 3: I assume, like in a backpack pocket or something. Are 708 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 3: those school rules or your rules? 709 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: Those aren't my rules, Those seem to be the school's rules. 710 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: Because I think during the day something came up and 711 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: I got an email from a teacher, because I don't 712 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: think Ruth was able to access her phone during the day, 713 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: so although I assume if by the time she's asking 714 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: the tea, the teacher probably would have given her permission 715 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: to said it. But whatever, they reach this solution, and 716 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: that is fine. I don't know. I've in general, I 717 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: think you have to also know your kids, and you 718 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: want to build up a relationship where you trust them 719 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: and that they also feel that they can come to 720 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: you if there's something that is bothering you, or if 721 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: they see something you know that somebody else is doing 722 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 1: that's inappropriate, or if they access content that turns out 723 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 1: to be scary to them, or something that they don't 724 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: think that they should have seen. Like, you want them 725 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 1: to be able to talk to you, and that's not 726 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: a function of whether they have a phone or not. 727 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: That's about your relationship with your kids. So I mean, 728 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: like anything, phones enable some stuff and you have to 729 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: have conversations that you wouldn't have had without phones, like 730 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: about what kind of pictures can you take given that 731 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: they're out there forever or whatever like that's but it's 732 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: still all about how you communicate with your kids, you know. 733 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: So that's my philosophy. 734 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 3: I don't think we'll have any trouble doing a multi 735 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 3: series about this because I feel like there is so 736 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 3: much more to say about this topic. So I guess 737 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 3: we'll just end it there for now. But yeah, I 738 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 3: think it's super fascinating and just important to think about. 739 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 3: And you think there'd be a lot I mean, I 740 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 3: guess there's a lot of conversations about it. 741 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: But well, how about you? When are you? When are 742 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: your children? I mean, because your children don't have phones, 743 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: but they do have other means of communication then. 744 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 4: But not with them on the outside. 745 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 3: So my kids have iPads and so they can text 746 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 3: their friends, like on weekends when we don't generally allow 747 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 3: iPad use on the weekdays unless someone's homesick or something 748 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 3: like that. It's more for the weekends and they can 749 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 3: play games and text their friends. They don't do social media. 750 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 3: Annell I think, at least at this point in her life, 751 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 3: kind of maybe I've brainwashed her a little bit. I 752 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 3: don't know, is not a huge fan of social media, 753 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 3: and there's not a lot of pressure to do that yet. 754 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 3: If anything, there's more just like texting or like group 755 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 3: FaceTime chats and stuff like that some of her friends 756 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 3: have phones, but some of them don't, including some middle schoolers. 757 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 4: And our school is really small and. 758 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 3: Probably a little bit more of a sheltered experience because honestly, 759 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 3: like her middle school classroom is like ten steps away 760 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 3: from her fourth and fifth grade classroom, and she's going 761 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,959 Speaker 3: to be picked up with my other kids. There aren't 762 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 3: a lot of there's a few sports and stuff like that, 763 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 3: but she'll have a Chromebook, so she'll probably be able 764 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 3: to text that way if she needed to school next year. 765 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 3: So we're not planning on a phone as of now. 766 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,439 Speaker 3: And she has a really close friend who's in sixth 767 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 3: grade at the same school who currently doesn't have one 768 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 3: and has been fine. And I really respect this girl's parents, 769 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 3: and like, I can see that it can be done, 770 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 3: and she seems very well adjusted and happy and in 771 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 3: lots of activities. So I think we're going to put 772 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,760 Speaker 3: it off for a little longer than is average, certainly 773 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 3: not forever. I'm thinking maybe it'll be like a seventh 774 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 3: or eighth grade thing. And again, we're not going from 775 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 3: like zero to sixty because she does have an iPad, 776 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 3: she'll have a chromebook. Like, it's not like she won't 777 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 3: have any absorability to communicate or anything like that. It 778 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 3: just I want to make it a little less accessible 779 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 3: for a little while longer. But yeah, lots of fodder 780 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 3: for future episodes. 781 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 4: I know what I was going to say. 782 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of sources come at it 783 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 3: from like either extreme and so I think this will 784 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 3: be useful because I think both of us exists somewhere 785 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 3: in the messy middle. 786 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean there was this whole push of like, 787 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: wait until eighth or whatever, and there's no data saying 788 00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: eighth grade is right. I mean, it's just that it 789 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: And that's what really bugs me about a lot of 790 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: this discussion is it's not there isn't like a lot 791 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: of longitudinal data precisely because this stuff hasn't been around 792 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: that long, so you have no idea, right, and so 793 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:17,760 Speaker 1: people are just asserting stuff. But it's like I said, 794 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: I think you have to know your kid, and they're 795 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: your family and they're your circumstances. And if you need 796 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: to get your kid a phone before they're eleven, like 797 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,359 Speaker 1: you're not gonna get shade from me. I mean, that's 798 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: your family, your decision, and if you have it in 799 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: a way that's healthy. That's great. 800 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 3: So and there may be like logistical reasons that it 801 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 3: makes sense. And I totally get that we happen to 802 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 3: be set up in such a way that it's probably not, 803 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 3: but I can absolutely envision like even certain activities if 804 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 3: Annabel chose to do them, would probably push me towards 805 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 3: being like, well, you're gonna be there, like unpredictable endings, 806 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 3: You're gonna to be picked. 807 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 4: Up, like, let's let's go forward with it. 808 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 1: So we'll see, all right, Well, this has been best 809 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: of both worlds. I was interviewing Shina Ayengar. We just 810 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 1: had a little discussion of screen time a taste of 811 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: what's to come. We will be back next week with 812 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,760 Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together. 813 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening. 814 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 815 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,879 Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you. 816 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 817 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,359 Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join 818 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 819 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 2: work together.