1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:22,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. These days, whenever I face a serious setback, I 2 00:00:22,996 --> 00:00:25,876 Speaker 1: try to channel the ancient stoics. I try to follow 3 00:00:25,916 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 1: the advice of great philosophers like Epictetus, a man who 4 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:32,396 Speaker 1: was born into slavery but eventually became one of Rome's 5 00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:36,196 Speaker 1: greatest thinkers. Epictetus argued that we have more control than 6 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:39,116 Speaker 1: we think about how we react to negative events. He 7 00:00:39,156 --> 00:00:41,316 Speaker 1: said we should try to think about life's bad times 8 00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:44,596 Speaker 1: as opportunities to learn and grow. And so whenever I 9 00:00:44,636 --> 00:00:46,596 Speaker 1: face a new problem, I try to treat it as 10 00:00:46,636 --> 00:00:50,156 Speaker 1: a challenge to be overcome. But I'm a pretty lucky person. 11 00:00:50,716 --> 00:00:53,516 Speaker 1: Most of my own personal challenges have, at least today 12 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:57,436 Speaker 1: knock on Wood, been fairly trivial. Thankfully, I haven't yet 13 00:00:57,436 --> 00:00:59,716 Speaker 1: had to go through anything like the challenges that my 14 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:02,356 Speaker 1: next guest, Karen Guggenheim had to face. 15 00:01:02,716 --> 00:01:03,556 Speaker 2: Eleven years ago. 16 00:01:03,636 --> 00:01:08,156 Speaker 3: Last week, actually last week last week, my husband caught 17 00:01:08,276 --> 00:01:12,436 Speaker 3: the flu, which developed into a pneumonia, and within ten 18 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:13,396 Speaker 3: days he was gone. 19 00:01:13,996 --> 00:01:17,916 Speaker 1: Wow, Karen's loss was shattering. People often say that you 20 00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:21,036 Speaker 1: gain strength through adversity, but I think they usually mean 21 00:01:21,116 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 1: tinier sorts of adversity, things like not getting some job 22 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:27,556 Speaker 1: you wanted or flunking your driver's test. But are there 23 00:01:27,596 --> 00:01:30,396 Speaker 1: ways we can grow from the truly terrible events in life, 24 00:01:30,796 --> 00:01:33,356 Speaker 1: things like the grief of losing your life partner Suddenly 25 00:01:33,956 --> 00:01:37,676 Speaker 1: Can the worst traumas imaginable also come with unexpected gifts 26 00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:41,996 Speaker 1: and growth. That's the question we'll be exploring in today's episode, 27 00:01:42,436 --> 00:01:45,476 Speaker 1: and Karen is the perfect person to help us. You see, 28 00:01:45,636 --> 00:01:48,636 Speaker 1: Karen's story is a lovely example of what psychologists call 29 00:01:48,756 --> 00:01:51,756 Speaker 1: post traumatic growth. Now, most of us have heard of 30 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:56,116 Speaker 1: the phenomena of post traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, cases 31 00:01:56,156 --> 00:01:59,796 Speaker 1: in which people struggle emotionally after experiencing a stressful situation, 32 00:02:00,516 --> 00:02:04,356 Speaker 1: but psychologists have also documented the opposite reaction. There are 33 00:02:04,396 --> 00:02:07,356 Speaker 1: certain people who go through a traumatic situation and wind 34 00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:10,316 Speaker 1: up stronger on the other side. They turned their pain 35 00:02:10,516 --> 00:02:13,676 Speaker 1: into growth. As we'll see in this episode, Karen turned 36 00:02:13,676 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 1: the pain of her husband's death into a mission to 37 00:02:16,076 --> 00:02:19,516 Speaker 1: improve everyone's well being. Her loss spurred her to develop 38 00:02:19,556 --> 00:02:22,956 Speaker 1: and found the World Happiness Summit, an annual celebration of 39 00:02:22,996 --> 00:02:25,716 Speaker 1: the science of well being where scientists like me get 40 00:02:25,716 --> 00:02:28,676 Speaker 1: to share our happiness findings with people from around the world. 41 00:02:29,276 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 1: I had a chance to chat with Karen about her 42 00:02:31,156 --> 00:02:34,236 Speaker 1: story at this year's World Happiness Summit in London. We 43 00:02:34,276 --> 00:02:37,116 Speaker 1: stuck away from all the lectures and panel discussions to 44 00:02:37,196 --> 00:02:40,276 Speaker 1: chat about the journey that began with her husband, Ricardo's death. 45 00:02:41,076 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 2: The trauma was on so many things. 46 00:02:42,756 --> 00:02:45,276 Speaker 3: Being in the hospital watching it happen, having the doctors 47 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 3: come in and trying to save him, telling my children 48 00:02:49,476 --> 00:02:53,036 Speaker 3: that their father had passed. I mean something that I 49 00:02:53,116 --> 00:02:55,236 Speaker 3: wasn't prepared for. Obviously you get prepared for it, but 50 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:57,596 Speaker 3: was the loss of identity. He was my best friend, 51 00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:00,236 Speaker 3: he was the father of my children, my husband, So 52 00:03:00,316 --> 00:03:03,316 Speaker 3: it was like his death also felt like a death 53 00:03:03,676 --> 00:03:06,436 Speaker 3: for me because in one moment to the next I 54 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:09,036 Speaker 3: wasn't those things, and so it was really really dramatic, 55 00:03:09,996 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 3: and a couple of days after he died, you know, 56 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:15,996 Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, I've been married twenty one years. 57 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 3: I got married when I was twenty one and he 58 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 3: died when I was forty two, So I was married 59 00:03:20,036 --> 00:03:22,516 Speaker 3: half my life with this person. I grew up with him, really, 60 00:03:22,596 --> 00:03:24,996 Speaker 3: he was eleven years older, and he was my best 61 00:03:25,036 --> 00:03:32,716 Speaker 3: friend and my advocate and somebody who accepted me completely. 62 00:03:33,836 --> 00:03:35,836 Speaker 3: And so we talk a lot about belonging now, and 63 00:03:35,836 --> 00:03:37,996 Speaker 3: so I felt this huge sense of belonging with this 64 00:03:38,036 --> 00:03:40,836 Speaker 3: person and he was gone, and I was like, okay, 65 00:03:40,876 --> 00:03:45,036 Speaker 3: well I'm done. This is great everyone, thank you so much, 66 00:03:45,716 --> 00:03:48,516 Speaker 3: but I'll take the check please, because I'm out of here. 67 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:52,636 Speaker 3: And then for some of us, invariably, it's the voice 68 00:03:52,676 --> 00:03:56,316 Speaker 3: of your mother in your head what about the children? 69 00:03:56,476 --> 00:03:59,796 Speaker 3: And I'm like, what what about the children? And I 70 00:03:59,836 --> 00:04:03,436 Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, I can't leave them. This 71 00:04:03,516 --> 00:04:07,276 Speaker 3: is bad enough. What's happened. And now if I'm gone, 72 00:04:08,076 --> 00:04:10,756 Speaker 3: And I don't think that I was suicidal at all 73 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:13,076 Speaker 3: in that regard, but I think we can be a 74 00:04:13,116 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 3: life that if I can say that just being numb 75 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:18,596 Speaker 3: to life, and I knew that that would be game 76 00:04:18,676 --> 00:04:21,516 Speaker 3: over for them, right, And so I thought, okay, I'm 77 00:04:21,516 --> 00:04:24,516 Speaker 3: going to live. And then I don't know how it 78 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:26,916 Speaker 3: was let because I didn't know anything about the science 79 00:04:26,996 --> 00:04:28,836 Speaker 3: and I didn't know about you know, the work that 80 00:04:29,076 --> 00:04:33,396 Speaker 3: you're amazing experts to But intuitively, I said, I choose 81 00:04:33,396 --> 00:04:35,436 Speaker 3: happiness because the pain. 82 00:04:35,236 --> 00:04:38,556 Speaker 2: Is so so bad that I got. 83 00:04:38,356 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 3: To find a way for it to be great. And 84 00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:42,676 Speaker 3: I don't know how to do that, and what I 85 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:45,156 Speaker 3: had hould on to is purpose and meaning because I 86 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:48,116 Speaker 3: could control that. And that was the first thing that 87 00:04:48,196 --> 00:04:52,796 Speaker 3: I learned is life happens, and many times you can't 88 00:04:52,796 --> 00:04:56,596 Speaker 3: control it, but there's always something you can control out 89 00:04:56,596 --> 00:05:01,036 Speaker 3: of the experience. And eventually I accidentally became happy again. 90 00:05:01,116 --> 00:05:03,076 Speaker 3: And when I found out that there was a science 91 00:05:03,156 --> 00:05:07,956 Speaker 3: behind it what I had done accidentally and haphazardly, I 92 00:05:07,996 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 3: decided to dedicate my life IF in twenty sixteen and 93 00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:13,916 Speaker 3: create Wahasu to put on the World Happiness Summit six 94 00:05:13,996 --> 00:05:14,556 Speaker 3: months later. 95 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:17,836 Speaker 1: The World Happiness Summit is now a very big deal. 96 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 1: It's been held on both sides of the Atlantic and 97 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:24,436 Speaker 1: showcases cutting edge work and happiness science. Karen Summit has 98 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:27,316 Speaker 1: now helped people around the world learn effective strategies for 99 00:05:27,396 --> 00:05:30,596 Speaker 1: improving their well being, but her own track for misery 100 00:05:30,596 --> 00:05:33,996 Speaker 1: to post traumatic growth was rather haphazard. I asked her 101 00:05:34,036 --> 00:05:36,476 Speaker 1: about the habit she stumbled upon that helped her find 102 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 1: her way. 103 00:05:37,996 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 3: Some of it has to do with actually things that 104 00:05:39,956 --> 00:05:41,236 Speaker 3: I did. So one of the things that I did, 105 00:05:41,276 --> 00:05:43,916 Speaker 3: I had received this shirt from my nephew that said 106 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:46,836 Speaker 3: I am happiness and I was not happy, and I 107 00:05:46,876 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 3: was not pretending to be happy, but I wore it 108 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:52,836 Speaker 3: because I said, that's where I'm going. I don't know 109 00:05:52,876 --> 00:05:56,876 Speaker 3: what I'm going to get there, so please have self compassion. 110 00:05:57,276 --> 00:06:01,676 Speaker 3: It takes time, it painful. Things are painful and that's okay, right. 111 00:06:01,716 --> 00:06:03,516 Speaker 3: And we hear a lot of things like, oh, weren't 112 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 3: you happy always this? It doesn't matter and it's going 113 00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:07,676 Speaker 3: to be as long as it is for you. 114 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:09,476 Speaker 2: But I can't you. 115 00:06:09,756 --> 00:06:12,836 Speaker 3: Something that really helped me with like Susan David's work, 116 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:15,956 Speaker 3: is I am sad. I am feeling sad, so to 117 00:06:16,036 --> 00:06:18,716 Speaker 3: be able to vocalize it to a friend or loved one, 118 00:06:18,876 --> 00:06:21,956 Speaker 3: you know what, today I'm really feeling sad. And it's 119 00:06:21,996 --> 00:06:25,156 Speaker 3: funny because my kids are like why and it's like no, no. 120 00:06:25,396 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 2: No, I really don't know, but it's okay. 121 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:27,916 Speaker 1: Yeah. 122 00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 3: And then you know, it's like you begin to invite moments, right, 123 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:34,156 Speaker 3: and to begin to invite moments and don't wait to 124 00:06:34,196 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 3: be happy to be happy. So, for example, if you 125 00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:40,156 Speaker 3: want to be happier and somebody asks you to go 126 00:06:40,196 --> 00:06:42,116 Speaker 3: for a walk or to have a call or to 127 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,596 Speaker 3: it and you don't really want to try it, because we. 128 00:06:45,716 --> 00:06:48,436 Speaker 2: Know the connection helps us. 129 00:06:49,156 --> 00:06:50,876 Speaker 3: You know, when you brush your teeth you're not having 130 00:06:50,876 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 3: a philosophical conversation. I may want to, but I don't 131 00:06:54,756 --> 00:06:56,716 Speaker 3: think I do. You know it's good for your teeth, 132 00:06:56,716 --> 00:06:59,236 Speaker 3: so you do it. So use some of these strengths 133 00:06:59,396 --> 00:07:03,476 Speaker 3: you use for other things with your emotional state, so 134 00:07:03,516 --> 00:07:06,316 Speaker 3: you're committed to other things, maybe to exercise, region, maybe 135 00:07:06,396 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 3: to sleep, whatever it is. And so for your well beings, 136 00:07:09,156 --> 00:07:12,036 Speaker 3: start to notice what works for you and reach out 137 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:15,676 Speaker 3: to people and give yourself permission to laugh. 138 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:15,996 Speaker 2: Again. 139 00:07:16,436 --> 00:07:19,716 Speaker 3: That's another one, because we have these prescribed ideas, right, 140 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 3: and so for example, one of the words I hate 141 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:23,996 Speaker 3: the most is the word widow, and I always have 142 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:27,116 Speaker 3: to fill it out single married, widow is like, can 143 00:07:27,156 --> 00:07:29,756 Speaker 3: I just be single? I'm going to the doctor who 144 00:07:29,756 --> 00:07:32,316 Speaker 3: cares you? Right, Because it's a lot of things that 145 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:36,556 Speaker 3: are tied to that. So you get to tell the 146 00:07:36,596 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 3: story about yourself. So start to think who do you 147 00:07:39,316 --> 00:07:40,076 Speaker 3: want to be in your life? 148 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:43,396 Speaker 1: And who did Karen want to be? She wanted to 149 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 1: be someone who could share the science of happiness broadly, 150 00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:48,956 Speaker 1: so she could help as many people as possible. But 151 00:07:49,236 --> 00:07:51,836 Speaker 1: that can be kind of tricky. People have lots of 152 00:07:51,876 --> 00:07:55,556 Speaker 1: misconceptions when it comes to maximizing happiness. They don't often 153 00:07:55,596 --> 00:07:58,676 Speaker 1: accept that simple habits like talking to strangers or writing 154 00:07:58,676 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 1: a thank you letter can have a huge impact on 155 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:04,316 Speaker 1: their happiness. As Karen learned more about the science, it 156 00:08:04,356 --> 00:08:06,156 Speaker 1: felt like a leap of faith for her too. 157 00:08:06,916 --> 00:08:11,596 Speaker 3: First, it was putting a foot into an open abyss, right, 158 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 3: especially if you're just learning about this at first, it's 159 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:18,716 Speaker 3: almost like it feels like it's Santa Claus, right, and 160 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:20,596 Speaker 3: you're like, well, I don't know about it. But then 161 00:08:20,996 --> 00:08:23,756 Speaker 3: just be curious, right, and you put that foot out 162 00:08:24,076 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 3: and you're like, wait, there's something there, and then you 163 00:08:27,196 --> 00:08:29,276 Speaker 3: put the other foot, and then all of a sudden, 164 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:33,676 Speaker 3: when you start practicing it habitually, you start to see 165 00:08:33,756 --> 00:08:36,876 Speaker 3: life in what I call technicolor. For me, it was 166 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:40,116 Speaker 3: black and white before. I was happy, but not fully 167 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:42,676 Speaker 3: alive because I wasn't connected to my real purpose. I 168 00:08:42,676 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 3: didn't even know I should have a I mean, I 169 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:48,236 Speaker 3: love being a mother, But it was like the waves 170 00:08:48,276 --> 00:08:50,156 Speaker 3: of the water, you know, like I'll be happy and 171 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:51,956 Speaker 3: then I wouldn't be and then I'd be happy. But 172 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:54,636 Speaker 3: they didn't know that I could have any purposeful action 173 00:08:54,756 --> 00:08:57,836 Speaker 3: around that. And that's what I've learned that I can 174 00:08:57,876 --> 00:08:59,716 Speaker 3: do something about it because I think. 175 00:08:59,556 --> 00:09:02,076 Speaker 2: We shared this, we got to work at it. Yeah, yeah, 176 00:09:02,116 --> 00:09:04,356 Speaker 2: so we're not one of those rosy people who are 177 00:09:04,356 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 2: just like. 178 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:08,156 Speaker 3: Hello life, you know, And so this keeps me honest. 179 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 3: This work really really keeps me honest, and it works. 180 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:12,396 Speaker 3: It works if you practice it. 181 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:14,276 Speaker 1: So, like I said, the second thing that we often 182 00:09:14,316 --> 00:09:16,796 Speaker 1: see in these moments of post traumatic growth is the 183 00:09:16,836 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 1: idea of social connection. You start to realize the people 184 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 1: that matter in life. You start to have gratitude for 185 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:24,356 Speaker 1: the people who kind of helped you along the way. 186 00:09:24,396 --> 00:09:26,116 Speaker 1: You kind of know who really matters and who kind 187 00:09:26,116 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 1: of didn't matter, you know as much as you might 188 00:09:27,876 --> 00:09:30,476 Speaker 1: have thought. Is that something that you experienced with the 189 00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:32,036 Speaker 1: death of your husband and this path too. 190 00:09:32,276 --> 00:09:34,676 Speaker 2: I think you're right. It does fine tune that. 191 00:09:34,756 --> 00:09:36,876 Speaker 3: And that's another element of post traumatic growth is that 192 00:09:36,956 --> 00:09:38,636 Speaker 3: you feel more empathy for people. 193 00:09:39,316 --> 00:09:40,796 Speaker 2: And the other thing is that. 194 00:09:40,876 --> 00:09:45,036 Speaker 3: The level of compassion increases, also self compassion, which is 195 00:09:45,036 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 3: really really hard again, but you kind of also increase 196 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:50,436 Speaker 3: that and you understand how what you give out to 197 00:09:50,476 --> 00:09:52,996 Speaker 3: others also needs to be nourishing and self care for 198 00:09:53,076 --> 00:09:55,396 Speaker 3: yourself to be able to do this, because if you 199 00:09:55,476 --> 00:09:58,156 Speaker 3: burn out and are depleted. Then you also can't do 200 00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:00,956 Speaker 3: the work for others. So that's also something I learned 201 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,116 Speaker 3: not to do too much. And I think you've learned 202 00:10:04,116 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 3: that as well. 203 00:10:04,796 --> 00:10:06,996 Speaker 1: Take care of yourself in addition to the other people 204 00:10:07,036 --> 00:10:07,516 Speaker 1: in your life. 205 00:10:07,636 --> 00:10:10,876 Speaker 3: Definitely, But when you're talking about people, it has really 206 00:10:10,916 --> 00:10:15,396 Speaker 3: expanded my heart because the pain was so great. So 207 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 3: I just want to say, with postraumatic growth, you don't 208 00:10:17,556 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 3: bypass the pain. Yes, yes, and you go through the 209 00:10:19,996 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 3: pain unfortunately. 210 00:10:21,756 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 1: And I think part of the pain is kind of 211 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 1: what gives you the energy and the knowledge that you 212 00:10:26,956 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 1: need for that compassion because it's like you felt that pain. 213 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 1: So when you see pain in other people, you kind 214 00:10:32,436 --> 00:10:34,276 Speaker 1: of want to help, right, Like you kind of know 215 00:10:34,316 --> 00:10:36,596 Speaker 1: what it feels like. You have that kind of instant empathy. 216 00:10:36,996 --> 00:10:39,236 Speaker 1: I remember this in high school. I had a really 217 00:10:39,236 --> 00:10:42,476 Speaker 1: close friend, Jenny Valente, who caught this terrible cancer and 218 00:10:42,476 --> 00:10:44,676 Speaker 1: wound up passing away. It was kind of a long process, 219 00:10:45,276 --> 00:10:47,156 Speaker 1: but in the middle of that, I remember she was 220 00:10:47,236 --> 00:10:49,716 Speaker 1: just like the most empathic person when it came to 221 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:52,036 Speaker 1: other people's pain. Now, she was like in chemotherapy and 222 00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:54,796 Speaker 1: didn't have hair like her health problems were just so devastating. 223 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:56,916 Speaker 1: But I remember in high school I had to get 224 00:10:56,956 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 1: my wisdom teeth out, which felt like such a silly thing. 225 00:11:00,236 --> 00:11:02,116 Speaker 1: But she was the friend that showed up, showed up 226 00:11:02,156 --> 00:11:04,276 Speaker 1: with flowers, was like ready to be there for me, 227 00:11:04,756 --> 00:11:06,796 Speaker 1: and I genuinely don't know. I mean, she was a 228 00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 1: very empathic person before the cancer, but but it felt 229 00:11:09,716 --> 00:11:11,876 Speaker 1: like it was going through that trauma that allowed her 230 00:11:11,916 --> 00:11:15,276 Speaker 1: to see that other people needed help and what actions 231 00:11:15,276 --> 00:11:16,916 Speaker 1: she could take to do that. It sounds like in 232 00:11:16,956 --> 00:11:18,996 Speaker 1: your story it's been the same. Is that that empathy 233 00:11:19,036 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 1: actually comes from the pain. The pain is sort of 234 00:11:20,836 --> 00:11:21,916 Speaker 1: what builds it in some. 235 00:11:21,796 --> 00:11:26,356 Speaker 3: Sense, absolutely, because you're able to feel so much love 236 00:11:26,836 --> 00:11:30,396 Speaker 3: and compassion for people and help people matter. And so 237 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:33,596 Speaker 3: that for me, I was friendly before, I wasn't a 238 00:11:33,596 --> 00:11:36,356 Speaker 3: bad person. I cared about people, but now to the 239 00:11:36,436 --> 00:11:40,516 Speaker 3: level that I genuinely love putting this event on because 240 00:11:40,556 --> 00:11:42,756 Speaker 3: it makes people happy and that makes me happy. 241 00:11:43,676 --> 00:11:46,636 Speaker 1: Painful events can leave us shattered, but they can also 242 00:11:46,716 --> 00:11:49,436 Speaker 1: lead to post traumatic growth, a new way of living 243 00:11:49,476 --> 00:11:52,276 Speaker 1: that can make us and the people around us even happier. 244 00:11:52,876 --> 00:11:55,836 Speaker 1: Karen's own trauma helped her find deep compassion and purpose 245 00:11:55,876 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 1: in life. But is Karen's story unique? Can any of 246 00:11:59,076 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 1: us turn our trauma and pain into resilience and growth. 247 00:12:02,436 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, we'll unpack the 248 00:12:04,556 --> 00:12:07,676 Speaker 1: research on post traumatic growth. We'll meet an expert who's 249 00:12:07,676 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 1: dedicated her career to understanding the complicated science of human 250 00:12:11,116 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: trauma and how it affects and even its definition can 251 00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:16,236 Speaker 1: be so variable across people. 252 00:12:16,716 --> 00:12:18,236 Speaker 4: Trauma is subjective. 253 00:12:18,436 --> 00:12:20,436 Speaker 5: I cannot tell you what is traumatic for you, and 254 00:12:20,476 --> 00:12:21,916 Speaker 5: you cannot tell me what trauma is for me. 255 00:12:22,596 --> 00:12:25,516 Speaker 1: We'll hear more when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment. 256 00:12:32,676 --> 00:12:35,676 Speaker 5: I know Karen going home very well because the first 257 00:12:35,676 --> 00:12:38,596 Speaker 5: time with it, the World Happiness Summit, was here in Miami. 258 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 1: This is clinical psychologist doctor Edith Shiro. She's the perfect 259 00:12:42,516 --> 00:12:45,476 Speaker 1: person to help explain how Karen Guggenheim went from feeling 260 00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: shattered by the trauma of her husband's death to becoming 261 00:12:48,356 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 1: a major promoter of global happiness. 262 00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:52,876 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, I know her work very well. 263 00:12:53,196 --> 00:12:56,356 Speaker 1: But Edith isn't just Karen's friend. She's also an expert 264 00:12:56,356 --> 00:12:59,236 Speaker 1: on the consequences of adversity and the author of The 265 00:12:59,316 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 1: Unexpected Gift of Trauma, The Path to post Traumatic growth. 266 00:13:03,236 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 1: Edith has worked with the survivors of awful disasters, tragedies 267 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:09,436 Speaker 1: like nine to eleven and the twenty twenty one surf 268 00:13:09,476 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 1: Side condominium collapse in Miami, but it it also counsels 269 00:13:13,236 --> 00:13:15,756 Speaker 1: people suffering from the kind of life traumas that don't 270 00:13:15,756 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 1: make headlines. 271 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:20,076 Speaker 5: Trauma is not just what we used to know where 272 00:13:20,196 --> 00:13:23,916 Speaker 5: we associate trauma with PTSD with post traumatic stress disorder, 273 00:13:24,116 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 5: and really that comes from all these experiences of soldiers 274 00:13:27,276 --> 00:13:30,356 Speaker 5: of war veterans. Really, the way I understand trauma, and 275 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:33,116 Speaker 5: I think the way that trauma works well is by 276 00:13:33,196 --> 00:13:36,436 Speaker 5: understanding the trauma. First of all, it's relational is what 277 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:40,676 Speaker 5: happens to us in relationships with ourselves others in the 278 00:13:40,716 --> 00:13:45,036 Speaker 5: world for which our belief system is shaken or shattered 279 00:13:45,196 --> 00:13:48,396 Speaker 5: and we don't have the resources or the tools to 280 00:13:48,556 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 5: deal with what's happening to us in the moment. It 281 00:13:51,236 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 5: can be a small thing, or it can be a 282 00:13:52,676 --> 00:13:54,636 Speaker 5: big thing. It can be a big T trauma or 283 00:13:54,676 --> 00:13:57,756 Speaker 5: a small T trauma, but it's really not being able 284 00:13:57,796 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 5: to overcome it, to face it, to deal with it. 285 00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 5: The other thing about trauma is that trauma is subjective. 286 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 5: Trauma is about what I decide and what I believe 287 00:14:07,636 --> 00:14:10,076 Speaker 5: to be trauma. I cannot tell you is traumatic for you, 288 00:14:10,116 --> 00:14:11,556 Speaker 5: and you cannot tell me what trauma. 289 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:14,156 Speaker 1: Is for me, because I sometimes hear even in my students, right, 290 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:17,716 Speaker 1: these cases where your people go through something that's that's terrible, 291 00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:19,436 Speaker 1: but they feel like, well, it's not as terrible as 292 00:14:19,436 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 1: the Holocaust, right, you know, I you know my loved 293 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:24,836 Speaker 1: one didn't die. Right, So talk about why, you know, 294 00:14:25,276 --> 00:14:28,636 Speaker 1: all kinds of experiences can be traumatic, and whether we 295 00:14:28,636 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: should feel guilty or for kind of going through these 296 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:34,516 Speaker 1: tough kind of trauma related response for cases of stressors 297 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 1: that maybe somebody might not think of as that bad. 298 00:14:37,556 --> 00:14:37,876 Speaker 2: Yeah. 299 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:41,036 Speaker 5: No, And you know I can hear your students say, oh, well, 300 00:14:41,276 --> 00:14:43,596 Speaker 5: have a bad breakup, but there's a war in Ukraine. 301 00:14:43,796 --> 00:14:45,036 Speaker 4: Yes this is happening. 302 00:14:45,676 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 5: But even if it's something that compared to other things small, 303 00:14:49,356 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 5: but for you, that experience of a breakup or ghosting, 304 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:56,356 Speaker 5: or not being invited to a party, or being discriminated 305 00:14:56,476 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 5: or bullied in your school, this can be very very 306 00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:01,276 Speaker 5: traumatic experiences for you. 307 00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:04,036 Speaker 4: You know. That's why I'm saying it's subjective in some way. 308 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:07,676 Speaker 5: Feeling guilty for that is not allowing yourself to really 309 00:15:07,716 --> 00:15:10,476 Speaker 5: heal that trauma. I don't have the right and I 310 00:15:10,476 --> 00:15:13,996 Speaker 5: don't deserve to feel better. I don't have the right 311 00:15:14,036 --> 00:15:16,396 Speaker 5: to take care of myself, and we have to be 312 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:18,756 Speaker 5: careful with that. I'm not saying that there has to 313 00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:20,556 Speaker 5: be the center of the world. Yes, there are other 314 00:15:20,596 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 5: people suffering too, but tending to your own traumas I'll 315 00:15:24,796 --> 00:15:27,636 Speaker 5: tell you why it's important, because if you walk around 316 00:15:27,756 --> 00:15:31,756 Speaker 5: life with that wound bleeding, the only thing you're gonna 317 00:15:31,796 --> 00:15:34,876 Speaker 5: do is you're gonna spread trauma to other people as well. 318 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 5: Trauma is very contagious, meaning whatever happens to me affects 319 00:15:39,596 --> 00:15:42,316 Speaker 5: everybody around me. So if I have a bad breakup 320 00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:44,476 Speaker 5: and you talk to me about your boyfriend or your 321 00:15:44,476 --> 00:15:48,276 Speaker 5: girlfriend whatever, I'm gonna hate you, and i gonna be 322 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:51,276 Speaker 5: a very supportive friend, and I'm gonna be responding with 323 00:15:51,396 --> 00:15:54,116 Speaker 5: like a nasty comment, or I'm gonna be indifferent, or 324 00:15:54,156 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 5: I'm gonna disconnect from you and say I can't even 325 00:15:57,596 --> 00:15:59,836 Speaker 5: empathize with what you're talking about because my wound is 326 00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:02,236 Speaker 5: so big that I can be there for you. So 327 00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 5: it's almost like a responsibility, Lauren, to tend to your 328 00:16:06,596 --> 00:16:08,836 Speaker 5: own wounds and to your own traumas, even if you 329 00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:12,236 Speaker 5: think that they're small, because even those small ones are 330 00:16:12,316 --> 00:16:14,876 Speaker 5: doing something to the reactions and the choices that you 331 00:16:14,956 --> 00:16:15,876 Speaker 5: make in life every. 332 00:16:15,716 --> 00:16:18,316 Speaker 4: Day, and it really affects the way you show up. 333 00:16:18,196 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 1: In the world. 334 00:16:19,196 --> 00:16:21,836 Speaker 5: If I grew up with a mother that wasn't loving 335 00:16:21,996 --> 00:16:24,396 Speaker 5: a typical thing, that it's not seen as a trauma 336 00:16:24,436 --> 00:16:27,236 Speaker 5: because it's not an event, but it's an ongoing situation. 337 00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 5: It's very hard for me to build a life with 338 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:33,796 Speaker 5: a partner that is healthy and that is respectful or 339 00:16:33,836 --> 00:16:37,036 Speaker 5: that is there for me if I carry the trauma 340 00:16:37,076 --> 00:16:39,756 Speaker 5: of my childhood of not having you know, parents that 341 00:16:39,916 --> 00:16:42,596 Speaker 5: show me what love was in a healthy way. So 342 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:45,316 Speaker 5: it's almost like a responsibility that I have as a 343 00:16:45,356 --> 00:16:48,156 Speaker 5: human being to become more conscious of my own traumas. 344 00:16:48,276 --> 00:16:49,876 Speaker 1: And so to give me some examples of the kind 345 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:52,756 Speaker 1: of events that could happen to individuals or communities that 346 00:16:52,796 --> 00:16:53,996 Speaker 1: could lead to trauma. 347 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:56,036 Speaker 5: So I'm going to give you, like a very very 348 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:59,196 Speaker 5: simple example that we've all gone through, and the pandemic, 349 00:16:59,236 --> 00:17:01,876 Speaker 5: for example. The pandemic is an example of collective trauma 350 00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 5: for which a lot of people were faced with situations 351 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 5: that were really shattering their understanding of themselves or the 352 00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 5: world around them, for which there was no way of 353 00:17:12,116 --> 00:17:15,076 Speaker 5: really processing. Or I thought my life was safer than 354 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:17,356 Speaker 5: what it is. And when those things happen and we 355 00:17:17,396 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 5: don't have the resources or the ability of the tools 356 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 5: to really deal with it, that it can become very 357 00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:25,876 Speaker 5: traumatic and then you can see all these trauma responses 358 00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:28,836 Speaker 5: around us. Other examples are I was just working with 359 00:17:29,236 --> 00:17:32,116 Speaker 5: the community here in Miami the serf Sye collapse and 360 00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 5: where the building collapsed and almost one hundred people died, 361 00:17:35,436 --> 00:17:38,556 Speaker 5: and how a whole community was affected by it. These 362 00:17:38,596 --> 00:17:42,156 Speaker 5: are examples of collective trauma. Individual trauma can be or 363 00:17:42,436 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 5: something from illness. It can be an accident, or it 364 00:17:45,436 --> 00:17:48,436 Speaker 5: can be something like experiences of bullying of a child 365 00:17:48,676 --> 00:17:50,956 Speaker 5: or an adult, or the loss of a pet, or 366 00:17:50,996 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 5: a divorce, or my boyfriend broke up with me, or 367 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 5: I didn't get the job or I was fired from 368 00:17:55,596 --> 00:17:58,436 Speaker 5: a job. These are also experiences of trauma, and it 369 00:17:58,516 --> 00:18:01,596 Speaker 5: depends how we deal with it to really see if 370 00:18:01,636 --> 00:18:04,116 Speaker 5: this can become a chronic trauma or it can be 371 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 5: something that can be an opportunity for learning. 372 00:18:06,956 --> 00:18:10,316 Speaker 1: You So, what's post traumatics you know, what kind of 373 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:12,436 Speaker 1: how does it affect the mind and the body? What 374 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:13,276 Speaker 1: are some symptoms? 375 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:15,716 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean so when we talk about post traumatic 376 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:19,236 Speaker 5: stress disorder, it's just one of the outcomes of being traumatized. 377 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 5: That's actually a diagnosis that happens after six months or 378 00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:24,796 Speaker 5: one year of having these kind of symptoms. But what 379 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 5: do we see when a person is traumatized. The person 380 00:18:26,916 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 5: is developing trauma responses in order to defend from what 381 00:18:32,196 --> 00:18:34,796 Speaker 5: they perceive to be dangerous. People ask me all the 382 00:18:34,836 --> 00:18:37,756 Speaker 5: time why people focus on the negative instead of a positive. 383 00:18:37,796 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 5: Let's say we have ten positive things happening in our 384 00:18:40,156 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 5: day and one negative, and what. 385 00:18:41,676 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 4: Do we do We focus on the negative? 386 00:18:43,596 --> 00:18:46,076 Speaker 5: Why why we know we can have all the great things, 387 00:18:46,116 --> 00:18:48,956 Speaker 5: but we know we are right, they're obsessing about the bag. 388 00:18:49,276 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 5: And I said, you know, we have to keep ourselves alive, 389 00:18:52,996 --> 00:18:55,876 Speaker 5: and we have a very very strong system of survival. 390 00:18:55,996 --> 00:18:58,876 Speaker 5: We are very sophisticated in the way that we defend 391 00:18:58,876 --> 00:19:03,316 Speaker 5: ourselves from pain, from suffering, and from danger. So focusing 392 00:19:03,356 --> 00:19:06,236 Speaker 5: on the negative and focusing on the difficult things. 393 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 4: Is what keeps us alive. 394 00:19:07,436 --> 00:19:09,876 Speaker 5: So in a way, we have to train in ourselves 395 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 5: to say it's okay. 396 00:19:11,596 --> 00:19:12,476 Speaker 4: I can calm. 397 00:19:12,316 --> 00:19:15,476 Speaker 5: Down my body in order to be able to enjoy 398 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:17,316 Speaker 5: and to shift to the positive or to the more 399 00:19:17,436 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 5: enjoyable parts of our lives. 400 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:20,556 Speaker 4: What are the responses? Typically? 401 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:25,396 Speaker 5: Fight, flight, freeze, or phone right? So what do we do? 402 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 5: Something dangers comes in some pain. We don't want to 403 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 5: feel it. We want to do anything not to feel 404 00:19:31,196 --> 00:19:34,556 Speaker 5: that pain, and we either fight back right, and this 405 00:19:34,676 --> 00:19:38,756 Speaker 5: can be emotionally. We get irritated, we hyperventilate, we get 406 00:19:38,876 --> 00:19:42,756 Speaker 5: hyper aroused. We're constantly looking around to see where's the danger. 407 00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:45,716 Speaker 5: We get into attack mode. We can do flight, what 408 00:19:46,036 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 5: does that mean? We are disconnected? We dissociate with avoid 409 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:53,436 Speaker 5: situations at all costs and that comes. 410 00:19:53,116 --> 00:19:55,836 Speaker 4: With a price. Or we freeze? What does that mean? 411 00:19:55,956 --> 00:20:00,036 Speaker 5: We cannot make decisions and inability to do anything about 412 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:03,156 Speaker 5: the current situation in order not to cause more suffering, 413 00:20:03,276 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 5: more pain. All of this is translated into symptoms of anxiety, depression, 414 00:20:08,476 --> 00:20:15,036 Speaker 5: panic attack, hyper vigilance, hyper arousal, flashbacks, nightmares, changing appetite, 415 00:20:15,116 --> 00:20:19,636 Speaker 5: changing sleep. These are typical examples of traumatic responses and 416 00:20:19,836 --> 00:20:23,436 Speaker 5: especially triggering responses. So, for example, I was working with 417 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 5: a girl that was very traumatized and she said, every 418 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 5: time I passed by a coffee place, I started getting 419 00:20:31,476 --> 00:20:34,796 Speaker 5: all these symptoms of anxiety and panic attack. And we 420 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:38,196 Speaker 5: found out later on that her father that was being 421 00:20:38,236 --> 00:20:41,756 Speaker 5: abusive to her loved coffee, and so she would associate 422 00:20:41,796 --> 00:20:44,996 Speaker 5: the smell of coffee with traumatic experiences. So that was 423 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:49,436 Speaker 5: a trigger response. So when you see people overreacting over something, 424 00:20:49,476 --> 00:20:52,476 Speaker 5: they say, wow, this response was so much bigger than 425 00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:54,756 Speaker 5: what it's supposed to be. You know, there's a history, 426 00:20:54,796 --> 00:20:58,356 Speaker 5: there's a story behind that. Then they keep repeating and 427 00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:01,676 Speaker 5: repeating and repeating. These are defense mechanisms that we use 428 00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:05,636 Speaker 5: to protect ourselves. The problem is that when we keep 429 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:09,356 Speaker 5: using them after the danger is gone, what happens it 430 00:21:09,436 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 5: hurts us even more. The very thing that is there 431 00:21:12,156 --> 00:21:14,596 Speaker 5: to defend us and to protect us is the thing 432 00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:17,396 Speaker 5: that now it's causing the problem. Right Because if I 433 00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:19,836 Speaker 5: disconnect from a moment not to feel the pain, that's 434 00:21:19,876 --> 00:21:21,716 Speaker 5: all good and find in the moment. But if I 435 00:21:21,916 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 5: live my life disconnected, then what happens I have higher 436 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:27,676 Speaker 5: and bigger consequences because of that. 437 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 1: And so your book, and in fact, just the name 438 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:33,356 Speaker 1: of the book, argues that trauma is a gift. Why 439 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:34,316 Speaker 1: is trauma a gift? 440 00:21:34,716 --> 00:21:34,996 Speaker 4: You know? 441 00:21:35,076 --> 00:21:36,596 Speaker 5: And people ask me all the time, how can you 442 00:21:36,636 --> 00:21:39,156 Speaker 5: put in the same sentence trauma and gift? 443 00:21:39,196 --> 00:21:40,356 Speaker 4: Come on, how can you do that? 444 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:42,636 Speaker 5: And I'm like, exactly, like I think my book is 445 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 5: full of paradoxes like that. Yes, we can acknowledge that 446 00:21:46,836 --> 00:21:50,076 Speaker 5: something traumatic can happen and at the same time hold 447 00:21:50,396 --> 00:21:55,356 Speaker 5: that hope that also it can bring amazing things into 448 00:21:55,356 --> 00:21:57,796 Speaker 5: our lives. Now, we have to be very careful when 449 00:21:57,836 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 5: do we say that. If a person just went through 450 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 5: the death of their partner, and I say to that person, oh, 451 00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:08,036 Speaker 5: don't worry, because you're going to have an amazing life 452 00:22:08,076 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 5: after this, to bring so many gifts in your life, 453 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:12,436 Speaker 5: So please, how can you be sad? 454 00:22:12,516 --> 00:22:14,596 Speaker 4: How can you No? No, no, no. They would never 455 00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 4: talk to me again. I would have no. 456 00:22:15,996 --> 00:22:20,236 Speaker 5: Patience, right, I would be fired from being a psychologist. 457 00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:22,796 Speaker 5: So we have to be very mindful how we bring 458 00:22:22,836 --> 00:22:26,556 Speaker 5: this up. The validation and the acknowledgment and the recognition 459 00:22:26,636 --> 00:22:28,956 Speaker 5: of the suffering and the pain and what the person 460 00:22:28,996 --> 00:22:32,076 Speaker 5: is going through is extremely important. Right the person, the group, 461 00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:35,836 Speaker 5: the family, the culture is like acknowledging and recognizing that 462 00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:41,276 Speaker 5: pain before we go into beginning to acknowledge that there's 463 00:22:41,316 --> 00:22:45,436 Speaker 5: a gift, and that can be very powerful to say 464 00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:49,396 Speaker 5: at some point, okay, maybe maybe I can see glimpses 465 00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:53,796 Speaker 5: of light. Right, Roomy says, the cracks is where the 466 00:22:53,876 --> 00:22:54,596 Speaker 5: light enters. 467 00:22:54,676 --> 00:22:57,036 Speaker 4: Right, you know this. You probably know this right. 468 00:22:57,316 --> 00:23:01,316 Speaker 5: And I love the Wabi Savage Japanese philosophy, and it's 469 00:23:01,356 --> 00:23:05,196 Speaker 5: a technique called kinsugi, and kinsugi is what's used for 470 00:23:05,436 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 5: basis that are that are shattered and that are broken. 471 00:23:08,956 --> 00:23:12,076 Speaker 5: The of throwing them away and losing their value, what 472 00:23:12,156 --> 00:23:15,316 Speaker 5: they do is that they take a gold powder and 473 00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:17,676 Speaker 5: they mix it with some lue, and they start very 474 00:23:17,716 --> 00:23:21,116 Speaker 5: carefully and beautifully and mindfully putting the pieces back together 475 00:23:21,516 --> 00:23:24,036 Speaker 5: in a way that creates a whole new vase. So 476 00:23:24,116 --> 00:23:27,236 Speaker 5: what you see is a vase that has gone through 477 00:23:27,276 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 5: experiences that something happened to this base. So instead of 478 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:34,076 Speaker 5: having less value, actually and it acquires even more value 479 00:23:34,116 --> 00:23:36,956 Speaker 5: than before. And why is it such a beautiful metaphor 480 00:23:36,956 --> 00:23:40,956 Speaker 5: for postumatic growth, Because it's really not putting the pieceess 481 00:23:40,956 --> 00:23:43,196 Speaker 5: back and bringing you back to where you were before. 482 00:23:43,316 --> 00:23:44,076 Speaker 4: It's the opposite. 483 00:23:44,116 --> 00:23:47,716 Speaker 5: It's really taking you to another level to become something new. 484 00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:50,196 Speaker 5: But in order for that to happen, it has to break. 485 00:23:50,396 --> 00:23:53,116 Speaker 5: So it's like the trauma, which is like that breaking, 486 00:23:53,316 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 5: that shattering, that like touching rock bottom, and then that 487 00:23:57,636 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 5: gift that is somehow with this process, it's like being reborn, 488 00:24:01,796 --> 00:24:04,716 Speaker 5: being reinvented, like seeing life from a very different place. 489 00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 5: And that's why I put trauma and gift the same sentence. 490 00:24:08,436 --> 00:24:10,276 Speaker 5: And you know, the funny thing is that it's not 491 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:12,356 Speaker 5: even that I came up with. That is that after 492 00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:15,636 Speaker 5: seeing patients and working with families and with different groups, 493 00:24:15,756 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 5: this is what they tell me, Laurie. They say, I 494 00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:21,076 Speaker 5: would not wish this on anybody. This is the hardest 495 00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 5: thing that ever happened in my life. But I would 496 00:24:23,916 --> 00:24:26,836 Speaker 5: not change this for anything in the world because what 497 00:24:26,996 --> 00:24:28,956 Speaker 5: happened to me is what made me who I am 498 00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:32,156 Speaker 5: today and I would not change it. And every time 499 00:24:32,196 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 5: I hear this and it's like, wow, people have this 500 00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 5: value not in spite of their trauma, but because of 501 00:24:39,116 --> 00:24:39,676 Speaker 5: their trauma. 502 00:24:39,756 --> 00:24:41,716 Speaker 1: And so let's walk through some of the positives that 503 00:24:41,756 --> 00:24:43,836 Speaker 1: can come out once people have kind of gone through 504 00:24:43,876 --> 00:24:46,236 Speaker 1: this process of post traumatic growth. One is a sense 505 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:49,236 Speaker 1: of appreciation in life. You know, what is appreciation for life? 506 00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:51,356 Speaker 1: And what are some examples of how you've seen that 507 00:24:51,396 --> 00:24:52,356 Speaker 1: in your patients. 508 00:24:52,956 --> 00:24:56,956 Speaker 5: Yes, yes, some of my research working with Cambodian refugees 509 00:24:57,556 --> 00:25:03,596 Speaker 5: and holocoust survivors and Latino immigrants, I've seen how people 510 00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:09,116 Speaker 5: begin to shift their priorities in life. And they say, 511 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:12,876 Speaker 5: you know what, I'm not sweating the small stuff because 512 00:25:13,036 --> 00:25:16,956 Speaker 5: people become so focused on what's important, even the little 513 00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:19,636 Speaker 5: things like waking up in the morning, having the sun 514 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 5: come out, eating a good meal. It's like, I'm so 515 00:25:22,756 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 5: grateful for that. These people that are gone to post 516 00:25:25,236 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 5: traumatic growth are very, very grateful for what they have, 517 00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 5: for who they are. They appreciate life, they appreciate relationships, 518 00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:33,836 Speaker 5: they appreciate. 519 00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:34,316 Speaker 4: Who they become. 520 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:37,436 Speaker 5: And they say it maybe because they've lost so much 521 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:40,996 Speaker 5: that everything hasn't acquired new meaning and they really have 522 00:25:41,076 --> 00:25:43,516 Speaker 5: been able to shed the things that are not so 523 00:25:43,556 --> 00:25:44,636 Speaker 5: important to them. 524 00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 1: And so what happens to a person's sense of personal 525 00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:48,676 Speaker 1: strength after post traumatic growth? 526 00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:52,156 Speaker 5: Right, it really becomes a protective factor in some way. 527 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:53,796 Speaker 5: And they tell me this, I think, you know what, 528 00:25:54,236 --> 00:25:57,876 Speaker 5: I survived my divorce and I know that because of 529 00:25:57,916 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 5: what I learned from the experience of divorce and how 530 00:26:00,196 --> 00:26:02,836 Speaker 5: painful it was I can face anything now, and I 531 00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:05,796 Speaker 5: think you develop tools that are very, very powerful and 532 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:08,556 Speaker 5: very protective for the next events that are happening in 533 00:26:08,636 --> 00:26:09,076 Speaker 5: your life. 534 00:26:09,116 --> 00:26:12,596 Speaker 1: And what happens to people's relationships after post traumatic growth. 535 00:26:12,556 --> 00:26:16,956 Speaker 5: So the relationships become very meaningful because I think people 536 00:26:17,036 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 5: that go through these experiences of traum and growth realize 537 00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:22,796 Speaker 5: that they cannot do this alone. I don't mean to 538 00:26:22,796 --> 00:26:25,196 Speaker 5: say that you need a psychologist for everything that you do, 539 00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:28,356 Speaker 5: but having a support group. It can be your yoga teacher, 540 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:31,116 Speaker 5: it can be a retreat, it can be your religious group, 541 00:26:31,156 --> 00:26:32,956 Speaker 5: It can be a community that you belong it can 542 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:35,196 Speaker 5: be your book club, being in a place that you 543 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:39,076 Speaker 5: feel heard and understood and validated. And when you are 544 00:26:39,196 --> 00:26:43,116 Speaker 5: experiencing that and you see the power of transformation that 545 00:26:43,236 --> 00:26:46,036 Speaker 5: relationships have, then you say, I only want to have 546 00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:50,996 Speaker 5: meaningful relationships, and we begin to really appreciate the connection 547 00:26:51,436 --> 00:26:54,876 Speaker 5: and really nurture the connection of meaningful relationships. One of 548 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:57,756 Speaker 5: the studies that I always talk about is the Harvard 549 00:26:57,796 --> 00:27:01,396 Speaker 5: study on what makes people live longer and healthier, is 550 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:06,476 Speaker 5: that having meaningful, long lasting, close relationships with friends and 551 00:27:06,596 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 5: family truly makes a difference. And I think when you 552 00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 5: get to postumatic growth. You see that in your experience. 553 00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:15,236 Speaker 5: You said, Wow, I look back, and I say, I 554 00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:17,276 Speaker 5: can see who are the people that are with me 555 00:27:17,356 --> 00:27:20,036 Speaker 5: that are not with me? What happens when I maintain 556 00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 5: meaningful relationships and what the difference does that make in 557 00:27:22,836 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 5: my life? 558 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:24,596 Speaker 4: And it might be less. 559 00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:26,956 Speaker 5: People than before, it may be different people than before, 560 00:27:27,036 --> 00:27:29,436 Speaker 5: because there's a lot of changes going on, but these 561 00:27:29,476 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 5: are meaningful relationships no matter what, and appreciation for those 562 00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 5: relationships as well. 563 00:27:34,836 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 1: Bad things can happen at any time in our lives, 564 00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:40,556 Speaker 1: but Edith's professional experience suggests that we could emerge from 565 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:44,996 Speaker 1: adversity more mindful, more empathic, and stronger for having survived 566 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:48,956 Speaker 1: the turmoil. But is everyone capable of experiencing the benefits 567 00:27:48,956 --> 00:27:52,036 Speaker 1: of post traumatic growth. We'll find out when the Happiness 568 00:27:52,076 --> 00:28:06,076 Speaker 1: lab returns in a moment. Doctor either Shiro had seen 569 00:28:06,116 --> 00:28:09,556 Speaker 1: the consequences of trauma long before she began her clinical training. 570 00:28:10,236 --> 00:28:13,196 Speaker 1: Her maternal grandparents endured one of the greatest traumas of 571 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:17,316 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. They were Holocaust survivors. They escaped the 572 00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:19,676 Speaker 1: camps that claimed the lives of virtually all of their 573 00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:23,596 Speaker 1: loved ones, friends, and neighbors, but their individual reactions to 574 00:28:23,636 --> 00:28:26,636 Speaker 1: these painful experiences couldn't have been more divergent. 575 00:28:27,236 --> 00:28:30,556 Speaker 5: I kept seeing that difference between my grandmother and my grandfather. 576 00:28:30,676 --> 00:28:33,796 Speaker 5: They're both really amazing people. I learned so much from 577 00:28:33,796 --> 00:28:36,436 Speaker 5: both of them, very close to both of them, very grateful. 578 00:28:36,596 --> 00:28:40,196 Speaker 5: My grandmother was more quiet about her experience. She was 579 00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 5: suffering the war. She had the memories in her body 580 00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:48,116 Speaker 5: much more evident. She actually was sick for a while 581 00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:50,756 Speaker 5: before she died, and she died young. She wasn't able 582 00:28:50,796 --> 00:28:53,716 Speaker 5: to overcome it in a way that was easy for her. 583 00:28:54,076 --> 00:28:56,916 Speaker 5: My grandfather, on the other hand, who had very very 584 00:28:56,916 --> 00:29:02,716 Speaker 5: similar experiences like my grandmother, somehow was able to transcend 585 00:29:02,956 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 5: that experience in a way that allowed him to appreciate 586 00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:09,076 Speaker 5: life from a different way. So you could see him, 587 00:29:09,556 --> 00:29:12,276 Speaker 5: you know, wanting to travel and being curious about life 588 00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 5: and appreciate life and connecting with people from all over 589 00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:18,836 Speaker 5: the world, keeping his friends. But you could see there 590 00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:22,156 Speaker 5: was something in him that was like that flame of 591 00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:25,636 Speaker 5: life that was very very powerful, and I think he 592 00:29:25,676 --> 00:29:28,476 Speaker 5: made a conscious effort and went through some of this 593 00:29:28,836 --> 00:29:31,316 Speaker 5: process to transcend it. And I think that was a 594 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:34,436 Speaker 5: beautiful example of postraumatic growth. And I kept saying, well, 595 00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:36,116 Speaker 5: how somebody can do that? 596 00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:37,636 Speaker 4: And what does it take? 597 00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 1: Is post traumatic growth possible for anybody? 598 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:41,796 Speaker 4: So this is my answer. 599 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:46,996 Speaker 5: The possibility of postumatic growth is there for everybody. Now, 600 00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:51,356 Speaker 5: some people have it easier than others. Other people, like 601 00:29:51,436 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 5: my grandmother, for example, she might not have known that 602 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:57,796 Speaker 5: that was a possibility. Some people might not have the 603 00:29:57,956 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 5: support system needed because for postraumatic growth, at least in 604 00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:05,836 Speaker 5: my understanding, you cannot do this by yourself. In most cases, 605 00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:08,956 Speaker 5: I think it's like you really truly need that other 606 00:30:09,316 --> 00:30:12,516 Speaker 5: person that can listen to you, that can walk with you, 607 00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:15,756 Speaker 5: that can validate you, that can hold that hope for 608 00:30:15,876 --> 00:30:18,556 Speaker 5: you while you're going through the dark night and soul. 609 00:30:18,996 --> 00:30:20,996 Speaker 5: Some people might not have access to that, and some 610 00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:22,916 Speaker 5: people might not want to do it, and some people 611 00:30:22,996 --> 00:30:25,276 Speaker 5: might not be ready to do it. So sometimes it 612 00:30:25,316 --> 00:30:28,556 Speaker 5: takes years before somebody goes to post traumatic growth. Maybe 613 00:30:28,556 --> 00:30:31,796 Speaker 5: the trauma happened in childhood, and it takes until you know, 614 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,796 Speaker 5: late in life for people to say, oh, I'm finally 615 00:30:35,116 --> 00:30:37,596 Speaker 5: working on it, on transcending it and transforming it. 616 00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:40,476 Speaker 4: So it's very very unique for everybody. 617 00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:42,476 Speaker 5: That's why this is not a recipe that you have 618 00:30:42,556 --> 00:30:43,876 Speaker 5: to follow step by step. 619 00:30:44,076 --> 00:30:45,356 Speaker 4: Is more like a spiral. 620 00:30:45,556 --> 00:30:47,876 Speaker 5: It's how you go around it once, and then you 621 00:30:47,916 --> 00:30:50,196 Speaker 5: go around it again, and then you go around and 622 00:30:50,236 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 5: this is how you keep evolving, you know. 623 00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:55,036 Speaker 1: So let's take a look at some of the kind 624 00:30:55,036 --> 00:30:57,636 Speaker 1: of steps or practices that can help us on this 625 00:30:57,716 --> 00:30:59,796 Speaker 1: path to post traumatic growth. I first wanted to talk 626 00:30:59,796 --> 00:31:02,356 Speaker 1: about radical acceptance. So what's radical acceptance? 627 00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:06,036 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the first step, and that first step is 628 00:31:06,356 --> 00:31:09,836 Speaker 5: one of the hardest. When you're in this mode repetition 629 00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:11,956 Speaker 5: that you're going over and over and over and you 630 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:15,236 Speaker 5: keep doing the same things and wantingly different results. You know, 631 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:17,556 Speaker 5: you keep falling into the same kind of relationships, so 632 00:31:17,676 --> 00:31:20,116 Speaker 5: you keep having the same kind of reactions to things 633 00:31:20,156 --> 00:31:22,436 Speaker 5: that then you say, oh, why did I react this way? 634 00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:27,276 Speaker 5: When we're able to for a moment pause and see 635 00:31:27,436 --> 00:31:29,916 Speaker 5: ourselves and acknowledge, Okay, this. 636 00:31:29,956 --> 00:31:30,636 Speaker 4: Is what I'm doing. 637 00:31:30,756 --> 00:31:33,756 Speaker 5: When we've been in this level of depression or in 638 00:31:33,796 --> 00:31:38,236 Speaker 5: this state of anxiety constant, it requires a moment of 639 00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:41,636 Speaker 5: pause and saying, Okay, let me look at myself, what's happening, 640 00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:45,756 Speaker 5: what's going on? Yes, let me completely and totally recognize 641 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:49,396 Speaker 5: that I'm anxious, yes I'm an alcoholic, or yes I 642 00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:52,076 Speaker 5: am depressed. I am depressed. This is what's happening. I'm 643 00:31:52,156 --> 00:31:54,956 Speaker 5: super depressed. Let me recognize that, let me acknowledge that. 644 00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 5: But this is almost like a conversation you have to 645 00:31:56,876 --> 00:31:59,596 Speaker 5: have with yourself because even though you have everybody around 646 00:31:59,596 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 5: you telling you this all day long, for years and years, 647 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:04,796 Speaker 5: it only comes to a moment of view to say, 648 00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:08,396 Speaker 5: I need to be radically honest with myself, and that's 649 00:32:08,436 --> 00:32:11,956 Speaker 5: where you really enter the process of healing. This is 650 00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:14,396 Speaker 5: the first step because people always ask me, Okay, this 651 00:32:14,436 --> 00:32:16,796 Speaker 5: sounds very great and wonderful, and yes, I want to 652 00:32:16,836 --> 00:32:18,036 Speaker 5: have postumatic. 653 00:32:17,516 --> 00:32:18,636 Speaker 4: Growth, but what do I do? 654 00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:21,836 Speaker 5: Okay, you have to be very courageous, and I understand 655 00:32:21,876 --> 00:32:22,916 Speaker 5: it's very painful. 656 00:32:23,116 --> 00:32:24,436 Speaker 4: It really is very painful. 657 00:32:24,516 --> 00:32:27,996 Speaker 5: So to sit there with yourself for a moment and say, yes, 658 00:32:28,036 --> 00:32:30,756 Speaker 5: I recognize it, it requires a lot of courage and 659 00:32:31,276 --> 00:32:32,436 Speaker 5: requires a lot of strength. 660 00:32:32,876 --> 00:32:34,076 Speaker 4: So that's the first step. 661 00:32:34,236 --> 00:32:36,356 Speaker 1: It also seems to go against our kind of our 662 00:32:36,396 --> 00:32:39,596 Speaker 1: typical mode when we're dealing with trauma, which is usually 663 00:32:39,716 --> 00:32:42,316 Speaker 1: kind of denial. So explain why kind of radical acceptance 664 00:32:42,396 --> 00:32:43,836 Speaker 1: is almost the opposite of denial. 665 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 4: It is right. 666 00:32:45,316 --> 00:32:47,836 Speaker 5: The opposite is saying like, oh, how do we deal 667 00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:51,116 Speaker 5: with trauma? We kind of disconnect from it, we avoid it. 668 00:32:51,156 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 5: This is like the very thing that keeps us surviving. 669 00:32:54,076 --> 00:32:56,436 Speaker 5: So we might have to be in denial for a 670 00:32:56,476 --> 00:33:00,036 Speaker 5: while until we are in a safe space to say 671 00:33:00,116 --> 00:33:02,156 Speaker 5: I'm ready to look into this. If I'm in the 672 00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:05,036 Speaker 5: middle of war, if I'm right now in Ukraine or 673 00:33:05,036 --> 00:33:06,796 Speaker 5: in the Middle East, and I want to go into 674 00:33:06,836 --> 00:33:10,636 Speaker 5: radical acceptance, no, sorry, that's the place the people there 675 00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:12,956 Speaker 5: have to be in survival mode. You have to still 676 00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:15,916 Speaker 5: be in denial in order to stay alivee. So it's 677 00:33:16,076 --> 00:33:18,316 Speaker 5: only when you feel that you're in a safe space, 678 00:33:18,356 --> 00:33:22,476 Speaker 5: and only when your body actually recognizes a safe place 679 00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:26,796 Speaker 5: that's when you can begin to go into this radical acceptance. 680 00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:29,156 Speaker 5: So it's really it takes time. 681 00:33:29,596 --> 00:33:31,436 Speaker 1: And that was nicely kind of going through this idea 682 00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:33,916 Speaker 1: of a safe space. I mean, another step that you 683 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:36,316 Speaker 1: have found is really important is the idea of finding 684 00:33:36,316 --> 00:33:38,756 Speaker 1: a different narrative. And so what is narrative and why 685 00:33:38,796 --> 00:33:39,676 Speaker 1: is it so important? 686 00:33:40,596 --> 00:33:43,196 Speaker 5: Yeah, so really not just a safe space for you, 687 00:33:43,436 --> 00:33:46,636 Speaker 5: but bringing a safe space to reaching out for help. 688 00:33:46,916 --> 00:33:50,356 Speaker 5: Once you're able to do that. Then there's the opportunity 689 00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:53,516 Speaker 5: to say, Okay, since I'm being validated with my experiences, 690 00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:57,316 Speaker 5: I can begin to construct and build a new narrative 691 00:33:57,396 --> 00:34:00,236 Speaker 5: about who I am. Maybe I understood life in a 692 00:34:00,276 --> 00:34:04,116 Speaker 5: certain way. Maybe you know that innocence of life of like, Okay, 693 00:34:04,236 --> 00:34:08,876 Speaker 5: it's predictable, it's controllable. I need to begin to understand 694 00:34:08,916 --> 00:34:12,636 Speaker 5: life a different way. Or I could never imagine that 695 00:34:12,676 --> 00:34:15,076 Speaker 5: I would lose all of my sisters and brothers at 696 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:17,916 Speaker 5: the same time in the building collapse. How is that possible? 697 00:34:17,996 --> 00:34:21,036 Speaker 5: You can't even understand something like that. So it's almost 698 00:34:21,116 --> 00:34:23,756 Speaker 5: like your mind begins to expand and say, let me 699 00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:26,916 Speaker 5: look at new belief systems, let me try out new 700 00:34:26,956 --> 00:34:29,556 Speaker 5: ways of looking at the world, looking at myself. This 701 00:34:29,636 --> 00:34:31,876 Speaker 5: is the stage where people begin to read new books, 702 00:34:32,196 --> 00:34:36,756 Speaker 5: they get into listening to podcasts, into getting into workshops, 703 00:34:36,996 --> 00:34:40,276 Speaker 5: or travel the world, or get new friends. Or a 704 00:34:40,316 --> 00:34:43,716 Speaker 5: patient that was very, very sexually abused, and she began 705 00:34:43,796 --> 00:34:46,676 Speaker 5: to paint and paint and paint, and it's through that 706 00:34:46,836 --> 00:34:50,116 Speaker 5: story of painting, and she almost had an alter ego 707 00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:52,916 Speaker 5: that was a new story for herself. That that's how 708 00:34:52,956 --> 00:34:56,836 Speaker 5: she told a new narrative of life of her life. 709 00:34:56,876 --> 00:34:59,636 Speaker 1: And so the next step is integration. How does that 710 00:34:59,636 --> 00:35:01,436 Speaker 1: involve our identity? What is integration? 711 00:35:01,876 --> 00:35:06,396 Speaker 5: So integration is taking all the new lessons and identities 712 00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:09,796 Speaker 5: that you have for yourself and the old ones, all traumas, 713 00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:12,836 Speaker 5: and really embracing it all. In some ways, it's saying 714 00:35:12,876 --> 00:35:15,436 Speaker 5: I can talk about the death and the loss that 715 00:35:15,476 --> 00:35:19,116 Speaker 5: I have without relieving the traumatic experience, and I also 716 00:35:19,156 --> 00:35:21,756 Speaker 5: can recognize that I am this person now. I am 717 00:35:21,996 --> 00:35:25,716 Speaker 5: I don't know, a divorced woman that went through a difficult, 718 00:35:25,796 --> 00:35:29,796 Speaker 5: traumatic experience of divorce. And I'm also a professional and I, 719 00:35:29,916 --> 00:35:32,756 Speaker 5: you know, have a new relationship. But I can say 720 00:35:32,796 --> 00:35:34,756 Speaker 5: that I can say both and I can integrate it 721 00:35:34,796 --> 00:35:35,836 Speaker 5: both into myself. 722 00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:37,756 Speaker 1: And then the final step that you talk about is 723 00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:40,796 Speaker 1: your favorite step, which is wisdom. And you talk about 724 00:35:40,796 --> 00:35:42,556 Speaker 1: this concept of the hero. You know, what is this 725 00:35:42,596 --> 00:35:45,316 Speaker 1: concept of the hero and how is it involved? Right? 726 00:35:45,356 --> 00:35:48,956 Speaker 5: It is like going through the hero's journey and finding 727 00:35:49,396 --> 00:35:52,596 Speaker 5: a way of understanding life with a mission, with a purpose, 728 00:35:52,836 --> 00:35:57,036 Speaker 5: the appreciation for life, the strength, the meaningful relationships. And 729 00:35:57,116 --> 00:35:59,356 Speaker 5: what I see in the people that I work with 730 00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:04,956 Speaker 5: is that the woman that went through childhood sexual abuse 731 00:36:05,276 --> 00:36:09,676 Speaker 5: has become the woman that opens nonprofit organization to help 732 00:36:09,716 --> 00:36:13,116 Speaker 5: other women in the world, and the alcoholic becomes the 733 00:36:13,236 --> 00:36:17,156 Speaker 5: mentor for all the other people with alcoholic addictions. And 734 00:36:17,196 --> 00:36:19,596 Speaker 5: these are all true examples. I mean, I wish we 735 00:36:19,636 --> 00:36:22,796 Speaker 5: had more time. I give you fascinating examples of what 736 00:36:22,876 --> 00:36:24,796 Speaker 5: people do with their lives. This is what makes me 737 00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:29,396 Speaker 5: cry in my office. It's like, wow, wow, wow. 738 00:36:29,196 --> 00:36:30,116 Speaker 4: How you can do this. 739 00:36:30,356 --> 00:36:33,996 Speaker 5: How you go from the most painful, adverse situation to 740 00:36:34,156 --> 00:36:36,556 Speaker 5: then you being the person that is in service and 741 00:36:36,676 --> 00:36:38,956 Speaker 5: is giving the back to the world in a very 742 00:36:38,996 --> 00:36:41,356 Speaker 5: meaningful way because it comes from the inside. It comes 743 00:36:41,396 --> 00:36:44,876 Speaker 5: from a true experience of going through it yourself, of 744 00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:46,876 Speaker 5: knowing what it's like and say I. 745 00:36:46,836 --> 00:36:48,636 Speaker 4: Did it, I can do it. I want to give 746 00:36:48,676 --> 00:36:49,676 Speaker 4: it back to somebody else. 747 00:36:50,876 --> 00:36:53,876 Speaker 1: Itith description of post traumatic growth as a hero's journey 748 00:36:54,116 --> 00:36:57,196 Speaker 1: really helped me better understand the story that started this episode. 749 00:36:57,676 --> 00:37:00,716 Speaker 1: When Karen Guggenheim lost her husband Ricardo, eleven years ago, 750 00:37:00,836 --> 00:37:04,036 Speaker 1: she was devastated, but thanks to strong family bonds and 751 00:37:04,076 --> 00:37:06,756 Speaker 1: a powerful sense of purpose, she was able to heal 752 00:37:06,836 --> 00:37:10,236 Speaker 1: her shattered sense of self. Her hero journey began when 753 00:37:10,236 --> 00:37:13,756 Speaker 1: she became curious about the very process she'd undergone, and 754 00:37:13,796 --> 00:37:17,516 Speaker 1: began to study the science behind happiness. Karen reasoned that 755 00:37:17,556 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 1: if she could find joy after trauma, it was probably 756 00:37:20,276 --> 00:37:22,596 Speaker 1: her duty to share that knowledge with people in need, 757 00:37:23,156 --> 00:37:26,276 Speaker 1: and that's how the World Happiness Summit was born. At 758 00:37:26,316 --> 00:37:28,756 Speaker 1: the most recent summit in London, I asked Karen if 759 00:37:28,796 --> 00:37:31,636 Speaker 1: she'd felt that she'd passed an important milestone in her 760 00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:34,476 Speaker 1: recovery from trauma today. 761 00:37:34,796 --> 00:37:37,956 Speaker 2: I felt proud of myself today. It's taken this long. 762 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:43,116 Speaker 3: I actually felt genuine pride of my work and what 763 00:37:43,156 --> 00:37:46,876 Speaker 3: I would have done, and so definitely that resilience. 764 00:37:47,076 --> 00:37:48,196 Speaker 2: I really felt it today. 765 00:37:48,316 --> 00:37:50,316 Speaker 1: And that's I think a nice example too with post 766 00:37:50,396 --> 00:37:52,876 Speaker 1: traumatic growth is it often that growth comes, but it 767 00:37:52,956 --> 00:37:56,556 Speaker 1: might not come the Tuesday after some terrible traumatic event. 768 00:37:56,596 --> 00:37:58,796 Speaker 1: It's like it kind of has to take time to 769 00:37:58,836 --> 00:38:01,436 Speaker 1: sort of grow and incubate. But the final results at 770 00:38:01,436 --> 00:38:03,676 Speaker 1: the end are so important. I'm wondering if you think 771 00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:06,036 Speaker 1: your husband could be looking back and seeing all that's 772 00:38:06,076 --> 00:38:08,676 Speaker 1: happened since he passed, like what he would say about 773 00:38:08,676 --> 00:38:09,636 Speaker 1: your past today. 774 00:38:10,156 --> 00:38:11,996 Speaker 3: I think about that all the time, and not only 775 00:38:11,996 --> 00:38:14,876 Speaker 3: do I think about it, I actually feel it because 776 00:38:16,236 --> 00:38:18,156 Speaker 3: for those of you out there who are experiencing any 777 00:38:18,196 --> 00:38:20,676 Speaker 3: kind of loss and are new to the loss, especially 778 00:38:21,476 --> 00:38:25,756 Speaker 3: and even ones that are longer, because it never goes away. 779 00:38:26,196 --> 00:38:31,036 Speaker 3: But you know what, some of us think that holding 780 00:38:31,076 --> 00:38:33,316 Speaker 3: onto the loss is holding. 781 00:38:33,036 --> 00:38:34,316 Speaker 2: Onto the memory, right. 782 00:38:35,156 --> 00:38:38,356 Speaker 3: But what I learned in letting go of the intense pain, 783 00:38:38,956 --> 00:38:41,676 Speaker 3: and it's not that it's not painful sometimes and sometimes 784 00:38:41,716 --> 00:38:45,356 Speaker 3: more than others, is that then you're able to experience 785 00:38:45,436 --> 00:38:46,036 Speaker 3: something else. 786 00:38:46,156 --> 00:38:48,076 Speaker 2: And what I experience now is love. 787 00:38:48,996 --> 00:38:52,076 Speaker 3: It's not romantic love because my husband's dead, but it's 788 00:38:52,076 --> 00:38:53,276 Speaker 3: a different kind of love. 789 00:38:53,716 --> 00:38:55,076 Speaker 2: I can see him and my children. 790 00:38:55,556 --> 00:38:57,476 Speaker 3: If I am in pain and deep pain, I can't 791 00:38:57,516 --> 00:39:02,156 Speaker 3: see him, right, And so it has opened up another 792 00:39:02,236 --> 00:39:05,796 Speaker 3: opportunity to have a different kind of relationship with the 793 00:39:05,836 --> 00:39:07,276 Speaker 3: memory of my husband. 794 00:39:07,356 --> 00:39:10,556 Speaker 2: And also I also like to quote Moga Dat, which. 795 00:39:10,356 --> 00:39:13,236 Speaker 3: Is our friend, and you know he lost his son 796 00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:16,516 Speaker 3: Ali tragically, and he says, you know, Ali lived and 797 00:39:16,556 --> 00:39:19,436 Speaker 3: Ali died, and he focuses on the part that Ali lived. 798 00:39:19,476 --> 00:39:20,436 Speaker 2: So I took that on. 799 00:39:20,956 --> 00:39:23,596 Speaker 3: Yes, he died and he lived, and like it was 800 00:39:23,636 --> 00:39:26,396 Speaker 3: amazing and he was an amazing person. And so for me, 801 00:39:27,036 --> 00:39:30,156 Speaker 3: with the summit, I get to carry his legacy of 802 00:39:30,196 --> 00:39:32,756 Speaker 3: who he was as a person, and so much of 803 00:39:32,796 --> 00:39:35,476 Speaker 3: what we do at the summit is the kindness and 804 00:39:35,516 --> 00:39:38,596 Speaker 3: compassion that he had because he was a doctor and 805 00:39:38,596 --> 00:39:39,516 Speaker 3: so he was a healer. 806 00:39:40,036 --> 00:39:42,036 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming on the Happiness 807 00:39:42,076 --> 00:39:44,116 Speaker 1: Lab and for sharing your story, and thank you so much, 808 00:39:44,156 --> 00:39:46,876 Speaker 1: so much gratitude for what you do, and I look 809 00:39:46,916 --> 00:39:50,236 Speaker 1: forward to seeing you again at Wahasu in Miami twenty 810 00:39:50,276 --> 00:39:55,636 Speaker 1: twenty five. Maybe stay tuned, and you can stay tuned 811 00:39:55,676 --> 00:39:58,516 Speaker 1: for more episodes of the Happiness Lab too. We'll be 812 00:39:58,556 --> 00:40:01,276 Speaker 1: back next time with the show to mark Digital Wellness Day. 813 00:40:01,716 --> 00:40:04,156 Speaker 1: We'll have tips on how to achieve a healthier relationship 814 00:40:04,156 --> 00:40:06,796 Speaker 1: with your devices and how we can reap the benefits 815 00:40:06,796 --> 00:40:09,076 Speaker 1: of new technologies without all the drawbacks. 816 00:40:09,516 --> 00:40:11,876 Speaker 6: Fifty percent of the time we pick up our phone, 817 00:40:11,996 --> 00:40:15,596 Speaker 6: nobody's actually called or messaged us. We're picking it up 818 00:40:15,636 --> 00:40:19,196 Speaker 6: because the need to be needed is actually highly addictive. 819 00:40:19,356 --> 00:40:22,476 Speaker 6: And the second time you reach for your phone, fifty 820 00:40:22,516 --> 00:40:24,836 Speaker 6: percent of the time, it's within two minutes of picking 821 00:40:24,836 --> 00:40:27,476 Speaker 6: it up the first time. And the downside of that 822 00:40:27,716 --> 00:40:29,756 Speaker 6: is that we're a little bit less connected with other 823 00:40:29,796 --> 00:40:32,996 Speaker 6: people in our lives. We're less productive, we're feeling less 824 00:40:32,996 --> 00:40:35,276 Speaker 6: happy about the way that we interact with the world 825 00:40:35,316 --> 00:40:38,236 Speaker 6: around us, and how tuned in we are to ourselves 826 00:40:38,276 --> 00:40:39,516 Speaker 6: and other people as well. 827 00:40:40,076 --> 00:40:42,476 Speaker 1: All that next time on the Happiness Lab with me 828 00:40:42,716 --> 00:40:43,916 Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos