1 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Y'all welcome to Zone seven. Tonight is gonna be a party, 2 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: is all I can take. I got Joshua Schiffer and 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: Franz Borghart. Y'all ate ready. If you're driving, you might 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: need to pull over. I'm telling you we have just 5 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: had one of the best evenings I have ever had 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: at Manual's Tavern, the original Zone seven. 7 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 2: You don't remember many of those. I should just note, 8 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 2: like the memory level at Manuel's is brief. 9 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: That's valid. That's valid. 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 2: I quick drink in two thousand and eight, even I've 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 2: got nights that I don't remember there right, that spot 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: is let. 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 3: You could not have picked a better spot. 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: It was perfect for what we wanted. And josh when 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: we first started talking about doing this, and we were like, yes, 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: let's do it. There's no doubt we've got to, you know, 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: have our other friends and y'all. We invited you know, 18 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: Jerryon Shepherd and Susan Hendrix and Joe Scott Morgan and 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: of course Brons He's with us tonight like we said, 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: and Nancy Grays. Y'all. The walls came off the place. 21 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: I'm just telling you people, they thought they were ready, 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: They thought they knew what this event was going to be, 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: but let me just give y' all a brief little thing. 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: We decided instead of doing our normal thing where we 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: take a case and kind of dissect it for you, 26 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: we thought, let's do a real Zone seven. Let's do 27 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: what we used to do at Manuel's Tavern, and it's 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: all get in one room and you know, have a 29 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: meal together and share some stories and talk about our 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: cases that are well known or unknown, and talk about 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: our background. How did we get here? And Josh, they 32 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: were not disappointed, were they? 33 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: It was awesome because so from the I've never done 34 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: this before, don't know quite what to expect, and have 35 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: drug fronds, and you know, I brought my daughter and 36 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: I'm like, all right, we're gonna go do this. It 37 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: was amazing because it was super organic because of just 38 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: who was there, Like you walk in and this was 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: just an ideal venue because it's super friendly. It's this 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: historic bar. For people that don't know, this is one 41 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: of those legendary Atlanta bars. It's actually you know, on 42 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: the east side over towards Decatur, but it's been a 43 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: legendary political cop you know, protest bar for fifty years 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: and it's got this great room, and I walked in 45 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: at five point thirty and it was just packed. Every 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: single table was full. The whole room turns around and 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 2: starts chattering and seeing this and You're like, what is this? 48 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: But it just started off with Hey, let's start talking, 49 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 2: telling some stories, and the next thing you know, it 50 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: was just story after story from people who just want 51 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 2: to show up and share. Absolutely a really cool experience 52 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 2: for me, and I definitely the feedback from the audience 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:10,839 Speaker 2: was just overwhelming. 54 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: Overwhelming. But y'all, in the most classic Zone seven fashion, 55 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: Josh and Franz are talking. I get in this little 56 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: group chat and Franz is like, no, I'm coming, This 57 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: will be great. I've already booked my ticket. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. 58 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: If you're coming, Oh, you're gonna be front and center, Sugar, 59 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: there ain't no doubt. People are gonna lose their mind. 60 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: And he's like, no, no, I just want to come 61 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: and support. I am background. I wouldn't having that, no, sir, ree. 62 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: If he was coming and he's already bought a ticket, 63 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: y'all think hen I'm gonna get behind that microphone if 64 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: I've got breath in my lungs. So let me tell 65 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: you he led off for us because poor Dave Mack 66 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: from Body Bags, Dave was coming. Dave had a flat 67 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: tire on nine twenty trying to get here from Alabama. 68 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: You know, Franz is like, hey, not a problem. He 69 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: starts us off. Franz, would you please tell everybody how 70 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: you just got into the microphone, not a note card, 71 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: not an outline, and just commanded that room so beautifully. 72 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 3: Well, you're you're very sweet to say all those wonderfully 73 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 3: kind things. And it is true that I bought the 74 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: ticket not to be you know, I like making things 75 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 3: about me. I like it. Johns will tell you Prosie, 76 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 3: But but I really did buy the ticket so that 77 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: I could just come and visit and watch the show, because, 78 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 3: like anybody, I'm into this. Standing up in that room, though, 79 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 3: I'll say this, it was like having a conversation with 80 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 3: a bunch of friends about about cases and things in 81 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 3: the system. That and what I really liked was the 82 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 3: fact that you had an intermingling of all sorts of 83 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 3: law enforcement. You had former prosecutors, prosecutors, defense attorneys, you 84 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: had crime scene folks and detective I felt in good company, right, 85 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 3: you know, and and I mainly you know, the funniest was, 86 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 3: I was sitting there thinking about, Okay, what are the 87 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 3: cases I want to talk about? And I kind of 88 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: alluded to, you know, at one point I represented a 89 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 3: guy named Sea Murder, a rapper It's named Sea Murder, 90 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 3: who was accused of murder. Ain't out a bitch. But 91 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: the one I enjoyed talking about, the one that I 92 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 3: got to tell you guys, the one that that kind 93 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 3: of kickstarted my career was the serial killer case I 94 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 3: was on in Baton Rouge. And you know, I geeked 95 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: out on that case that we had three killers. We 96 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 3: had three serial killers, all three have been convicted in 97 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 3: Baton Rouge, and I represented the third of the three, 98 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Gillery, And so I just told told the story 99 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: about what it was like to sit next to us 100 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 3: serial killer for two weeks and try case and the 101 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: prep a case. And the funniest was my defense. My 102 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 3: defense was that the victim in the case, God Rest 103 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: her soul, actually knew and hung out with another of 104 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: the serial killers. She was an associate of Sean Gillis. 105 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 3: Sean Gillis in fact referenced her when he was spilling 106 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: his guts and confessing to his crimes. Now, of course 107 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 3: he didn't kill her, He didn't confess to killing her, 108 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 3: but that certainly didn't stop me from pointing the finger. 109 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: But you know, ultimately, at the end of the day, 110 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 3: in good old fashioned criminal forensic style, that was the 111 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 3: DNA case. 112 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: And you know what's so crazy, I didn't even know 113 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: you represented c murder. And when you said that, I'm like, 114 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: I can remember being on Nancy Gray saying, well, that's 115 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: going to be a workaround right there. That's the first 116 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: thing you got to get over with that jury. 117 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: The best part, the best part of that case was 118 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: our case was he shot. It was all on video. 119 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: He shot a gun at a nightclub. Now it really 120 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 3: wasn't a murder case, but he had a murder case 121 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 3: and another parish and it was all on video. Walks 122 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 3: into the door, they metal detect him, and he doesn't 123 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 3: want to he doesn't want to empty his pockets because 124 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 3: he has a gun on him, and essentially, essentially it 125 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 3: leads to a shooting. But that's not the best part. 126 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 3: The best part was the club owner, the true victim 127 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: of the crime, sued him and his label claiming that 128 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: it was a promotion to a record that he had 129 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: coming out, so that the whole thing was really not real. 130 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 3: It was out of Chase. 131 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: Chase, that money man, Chase right. 132 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: Right, So our defense things for money. So our defense 133 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 3: after that civil suit was filed, our defense became, yeah, 134 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,559 Speaker 3: this really wasn't an attempted murder. This was a promotional item, 135 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 3: because what do you do, guys, what do you do 136 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 3: when your client's on video with a gun fire and 137 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: a gun You lean into what you got? 138 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you got You gotta work brilliant, you gotta 139 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: work with it. 140 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 3: Ultimately, on that before everybody came to their senses and 141 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: we started picking a jury, he ended up pleading. He 142 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 3: ended up pleading to the club shooting because his bigger 143 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: fish to fry was the murder case and the other parish. 144 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 3: And ultimately we got him a wonderful deal on and look, 145 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: being called c murder, he didn't do himself any favors, right, 146 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: So it was look, bigger picture, guys, bigger pictures, Cheryl. 147 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: It was so much fun getting to hang out. I mean, 148 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 3: the highlight for me was little old me sitting there 149 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: talking on the mic. Nancy Grace comes in at the 150 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 3: beginning of my talk, and she, of course now knows 151 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 3: who I am, which how funny is that that Nancy 152 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 3: Grace knows who Franz Borkard is. She made a comment 153 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: about oh Barkart's on the mic. I got that story 154 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 3: for the rest of my life. Guys, thank you. 155 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: But you know, Josh, you and I were sitting there 156 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: at one point and we're like, you know what, there 157 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: are people in this room that came from Indiana, in Ohio, 158 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: in Louisiana, not just Frans but other people from Louisiana 159 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: and Florida and of course Georgia. 160 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: Crazy. 161 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: It was unbelievable. But you know, when you took the mic, 162 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: let me tell you that, Oh stop, but this is 163 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: what I love. Not only do you start telling the stories, 164 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: but you're so great at incorporating what you did at 165 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: your trial college, that camp, that inclusive. Here we all 166 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: are and again given homage to your mentor, and that 167 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: I think set the tone for that room with you 168 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: to say, wait a minute, they're telling us intimate stories. 169 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: How did I get here? How do I frame McKay's 170 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you and I loved that story. 171 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: I have a firm belief that not necessarily the technical 172 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: parts of trialring, but the personal parts of trialaoring can 173 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 2: be done by any single person given some time and attention. 174 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: There is not an intelligence floor that you must be 175 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: this smart to tell a good story, because stories are 176 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: about feelings, and we have been conditioned by our culture, 177 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 2: by our universe to tamp down so much of our 178 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 2: natural expressiveness, the expressiveness that would exist without the artificial constructs. 179 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: We got to actually work at how do you let 180 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: that storytelling out? And the best way to do that 181 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: is to show it. And that's what I try to 182 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: do with any talk is just think about, you know, 183 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: this room, these people, what stories are they going to 184 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: want to be engaged in and listen to. Because if 185 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: you're paying attention to your listener, that that's going to 186 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: get you to tell a story that means something to them. 187 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: It's you're approaching it from their perspective. And I just 188 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: love when you're, like Fran said, in this incredible room 189 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: of people that was warm and trustworth and was there 190 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 2: out of genuine interest and care. These were people that 191 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: have the connections that I think are really special and 192 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: that I want to know about. So I just like 193 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 2: being with those kinds of people. 194 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 3: Well, and let me let me add this. Josh and 195 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: I know each other because of the Jerry Spence Trial 196 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 3: Lawyers College. I met Josh at one of their graduate 197 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 3: programs in Wyoming. We had, in fact, had a dorm 198 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 3: right next to each other. We smoked cigars with each other, 199 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 3: and what few people know is it was such a 200 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 3: wonderful experience. We got to bring cases up with us, 201 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 3: and nobody knows. Josh knows because he was there. At 202 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 3: one point. It was Jerry Spence working with us on 203 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: cases that were tough and complex. And I raised my hand, 204 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 3: I was a public defender, raised my hand and said, 205 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: mister Spence, how do you've wader if your client is 206 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: accused of being a serial killer? And to his credit, 207 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: he was like, well, that's a good question. Is your 208 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: client a serial killer? You know? And we've wad deer. 209 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 3: I had Jerry Spence working on the case. Josh's in 210 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 3: the room and small world. 211 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: And that's that's the special magic of some of those 212 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: gatherings and the power of a group, because that universe, 213 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: especially when Jerry was there and active in the college, 214 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: it was the best group of lawyers the world could 215 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: have met. The volunteer staff were people that you know, 216 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,239 Speaker 2: literally former US attorneys, some of the most famous military 217 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 2: attorneys of all time, the legends of personal injury, the 218 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: guys that literally get the gigantic front page news verdicts. 219 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: And then for that fifteen twenty years, you couldn't pick 220 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: up the newspaper and see a big legal issue without 221 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: being like, I bet I know a trial or as 222 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: college person that was associated with that in some way. 223 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 2: And it's because Jerry teaches all about the storytelling and 224 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 2: teaches that how are you going to tell your client's 225 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: story if you can't tell your story? And the way 226 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: that you find your story is by doing self examination. 227 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: And this is where a lot of people get kind 228 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: of ikeyed out, because there's a lot of what can 229 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: be graciously described as group therapy where you use these 230 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: psychological tools called psychodrama to act out and to put 231 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: into motion of different parts of lives, different storytellings, and 232 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: those tools are being used therapeutically to tell the lawyer's stories. 233 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: And I think that all lawyers to a degree are 234 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 2: broken people. So we get the benefit of kind of 235 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: doing therapy with each other. But at the same time, 236 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: those tools of putting emotions and feelings into action and 237 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: reaching back through time and space and painting visceral pictures 238 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 2: of incidents. If you can teach lawyers to do that, 239 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: it's gonna make them more effective trial lawyers. And that's 240 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: what we all became. And I can go down a 241 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: list of a couple hundred of us that are some 242 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: of the most prominent lawyers in the nation, and we 243 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: all have that kind of special connection. And I remember 244 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: vividly the young Franz public defender. There's a funny story 245 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: about Franz in a tent and there was a lack 246 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: of space, so Franz was gonna maybe be in this 247 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: big old army tent. And we're like, Franz, now, man, 248 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: we'll get your room in the dorm. And he goes, no, no, no, 249 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: I'm good in the tent and we're like, no, no, Franz, man, 250 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: this is the middle of nowhere, wound like this is 251 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: east of the Continental Divide. You walk off the ranch, 252 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: you're gonna die, like it is next to the Native reservation. 253 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: Franz is like no, no, no, no. In the tent, We're like, no, dude, 254 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: come on, come into the barn man. We got room. 255 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: I know. Well, there was only one other person that 256 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: was in the tent, and this was a large tent. 257 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: This was a military grade tent like with rooms and stuff. 258 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: And uh, just so happened that the other person staying 259 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: in the tent was one of the more beautiful and 260 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: striking prom lawyers. And it was like, oh, never mind, 261 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: gets to see her all day, gotcha, never mind. 262 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: Rons is a wilderness man. All of a sudden, I 263 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: got you. 264 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: I'm good girl. Let me say this. It's July in 265 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: the middle of Wyoming. Titan Mountains are in the background, 266 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: and it's snowing in July. And for the tent, they 267 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: had set up a shower outside of the tent in 268 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 3: a little box space, and I'm like taking it and 269 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: keeping part of it. This sounds if it sounds a 270 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 3: little ridiculous. They've set up the tent. Yeah, they set 271 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 3: up into the tent in part because they were letting 272 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: indigent defenders come to this event and who couldn't afford 273 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: their offices, couldn't afford afford the cost of the tuition there, 274 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 3: so they would give out scholarships and hey, if you're 275 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 3: willing to sleep in tent. We're gonna knock off a 276 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 3: little bit of your tuition costs. And I was like 277 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 3: to learn from from Jerry Spence and some of the 278 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 3: best attorneys in the country. I'll sleep outside done. And 279 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 3: that's it was just it. You can't we're not doing 280 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: it justice describing it. But I remember sitting around a 281 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 3: bonfire at one point Sheheryl in the middle of July, 282 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 3: and I'm like, you know, I'm from South Louisiana, and 283 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 3: I'm like, what are these little white, flaky things coming down? 284 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: It was snowing in July. 285 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: My word, it's so wild that there's literally someone hears 286 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: about a bear and it's like, all right, guys, there's bear. 287 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: Everybody be you. 288 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 3: It is wild. 289 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 2: It is beyond wild. You can look it up. It's 290 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 2: the wind River area of Wyoming. There's actually a movie 291 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 2: about it, like The wind River Killer or something like that. 292 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's the most beautiful, striking, desolate landscape ever. 293 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: And it's fifty to seventy five lawyers taking care of 294 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: each other, completely stripped of all the pretense of all 295 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: the shenanigans. We do our own dishes, we clean our 296 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 2: own bathrooms, like it was a real special special way 297 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: that we all learned these tools. And that's really what 298 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: I like talking about, are those tools because they can 299 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 2: be applied throughout your life with storytelling. And that's what 300 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 2: good lawyering is. It's why I think we like true crime. 301 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: We like good stories. The drama of humanity is a 302 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 2: universe touchstone that very clearly a lot of people that 303 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: think like me and I get along with enjoy the 304 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: true crime universe because of those stories. That's what drives 305 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: us and it's why this is so enjoyable for us. 306 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: Right now. My favorite story is friends basically saying to you, Josh, 307 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: you touch my luggage, I'll kill you. Yeah. I think 308 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: that's the funnies think I've ever heard. No, No, I'm 309 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: good in the tent trust me. But you know, Zone 310 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: seven is that way. The original manuals was that for me. 311 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: We had defense attorneys, we had probation officers and crime 312 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: seen investigators and detectives. Everybody's at the same table enjoying 313 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: the stories, enjoying the conversation and learning from each other. 314 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: And when I hear you know, the younger rookies and 315 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: younger detectives today talking about I would never be friends 316 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: with a defense attorney, a baby, you're gonna need one. 317 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: You're gonna need one one day somehow, either you or 318 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: somebody you love. And Two, why in the world does 319 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: it have to be that it's not us against them. 320 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: We're on the same team, really, because the way I 321 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: look at Josh is Josh is gonna keep me honest. 322 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: He's gonna keep me doing my job the best that 323 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: I can. 324 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 3: Let me say this, and to Josh, you may have 325 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: experienced something similar. Some of my best client referrals have 326 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 3: been from law enforcement or prosecutors who found out that 327 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 3: they had someone in their lives that needed help. And look, 328 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 3: I ain't gonna get religious, you know, I'm not religious, Josh, 329 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 3: but I will say it happened this week. I had 330 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: one of my law enforcement buddies who's retired reach out 331 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 3: to me because his son may have cancer, and he 332 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: was like, would you say a prayer for my son? 333 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: And I'm like, you damn right, I will done. So 334 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 3: it's it's it. It doesn't have to be in the courtroom. 335 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 3: It's war outside of the courtroom. It doesn't have to be, 336 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 3: and it shouldn't be. And candidly, if we're all doing 337 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 3: our jobs, right. I mean I want to be able 338 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 3: to go up to a forensic scientist and say, hey, 339 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 3: let's talk about this, you know, and and for them 340 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 3: and I to be able to have an intellectually honest 341 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 3: conversation about like something that is just something that we 342 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: both find to be fascinated and interesting and especially in 343 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 3: cases we're not really working, those are the best conversations. 344 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, and that's when the real work 345 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: can get done. Let's all get in a room, tell 346 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: the truth, figure out the best course of action. Everybody 347 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: don't need to go to jail and. 348 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: The learning like that. If you want to increase your 349 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: the quality of your work product, whatever that is, as 350 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: an officer, as an investigator, as a lawyer, you being 351 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 2: exposed to other good practitioners is where you just get it. 352 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: You can read it in a book, It is nothing 353 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 2: like the experience of being there. And that also gets 354 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 2: to the magic of the moment. Going back to what 355 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: Cheryl was talking about a few minutes ago, with the 356 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 2: original gatherings at Manny's, you can never create that magical 357 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: moment again. That's something that I learned through Trial Loras 358 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: College was we try to haunt these memories and recreate, 359 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 2: and it took getting to the piece that Nope, that 360 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 2: magic was that moment and that serendipity and a bit 361 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 2: of creation. Not to get too religious, that moment of 362 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: creation is truly unique and it will never be that 363 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 2: way again, and that is a good positive memory and 364 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: it can serve as an inspiration for future gatherings. But 365 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: rather than go recreate, let's just go back and honor 366 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: and care about those times that we had. And that 367 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: helps us process and remember the most important parts from it. 368 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: Because when we've gotten to the idea of that's done, 369 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: that's wrapped up, that was a discreete moment, we can 370 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 2: fully process it, get the lessons from it, and then 371 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: apply in the future trying to get back to those 372 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 2: parts that make us feel so special that really bring 373 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: us together. Because that moment when you all are just 374 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: connected and doing the right stuff, doing the work, getting forward, man, 375 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: you feel it. 376 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: It's special and you know you couldn't deny what was 377 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: happening in that room because for me several things were 378 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: just it transcended anything we thought was going to happen. 379 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: But watching Fraunds with Jackie Howard, I loved that they 380 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: were laughing, they were talking about Nancy. I'm sure they 381 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: were just cute as they could be. But to be 382 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: together in that room in that moment was so special. 383 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 2: It was awesome, it was real, and it was such 384 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: an honor to be such a yes. So like I 385 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 2: have my little cute p the pinbacks actually arrived tomorrow. 386 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: A young fan made me the most adorable little clay 387 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 2: set of glasses that I'm making a pin out of 388 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: and crocheted this incredible little glasses holder that sits next 389 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: to my bed. The nicest people, and just seeing everybody, 390 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: and like, I don't get to see Susan Hendrix all 391 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: the time, like I jump into her every once in 392 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 2: a while, but. 393 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: That's what I was getting to. The second thing I 394 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: enjoyed was the two of y'all. Oh my gosh, she 395 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: is one of the most generous, kind fun but the 396 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: two of y'all. I just enjoyed that dynamic. Just watching, Okay, 397 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: all of these people that I love and I respect 398 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: and I'm friends with, We're all in the same room 399 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: and something really good is fixing to happen. 400 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: The funniest piece for me was I was talking to 401 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 3: Miss Jackie and she's like, are you going to crime Con? 402 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: And I looked at her and I said, miss Jackie, 403 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 3: I don't really consider myself a true crime guy. And 404 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 3: she looked at me like I had horns on my 405 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 3: head and I said, I just don't. I don't see 406 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 3: myself that way. And she she was like, are you 407 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 3: full of shit? Or something like like you know, And 408 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 3: it was really funny because she was like pulling up 409 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 3: true Crime, the crime con advertisement on her phone. It's like, 410 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 3: you going to this Franz, right, And I was like, yes, 411 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 3: miss Jackie, Yeah, it's. 412 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: Gonna be a crime con like no other, like no other. 413 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: I see. People don't understand Franz. And until recently me 414 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 2: had a full day like Franz is gonna get up 415 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 2: and go to work tomorrow and do like the whole 416 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: full day lawyer thing all day. And then when he 417 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: gets a break in the action Court TV's kind of 418 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 2: always asking him, hey, can you jump on this hour? 419 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: Can you jump on this hour? Every one of the 420 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: hosts adores Franz. Then he got me he's doing us. 421 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: That's all literally like the Franz hobby because he's he 422 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: and I kind of share that same mentality. It's so 423 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: fun to see how huge that true crime universe is 424 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: because it's not something and I think I speak for 425 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: Franz that we ever were like, hey, let's go do 426 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 2: this true crime. No, it totally dropped in the lap 427 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: because of genuine enjoyment and genuine and we both really 428 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 2: like this stuff. 429 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: But when y'all walked in that room and got the 430 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: attention that y'all did from all of those people, you 431 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: had to be uber aware that hey, wait a minute, 432 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: they know who we are. Like last year you couldn't 433 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: make it to Crime Con because you had a major trial, 434 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: but you gifts for everybody. You called me and said, hey, 435 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: there's a. 436 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 3: Box for you. 437 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: I sent it to the hotel. 438 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 3: Get it. 439 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: You'll know what to do with it when you open it. 440 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: I open this gigantic box, y'all. It's his glasses, the 441 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: round red ones, the green ones, the blue ones, the 442 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: yellow ones. So I go to the session that I've 443 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: got with Barbara Butcher. There's five hundred people in that room, 444 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: all wearing his glasses. 445 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 3: It was so cool. 446 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: But they were so touched that you would think of 447 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: them even in your absence. And what did you get? 448 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: You got a pen of your glasses because her mama 449 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: brought those glasses home, and. 450 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: One very nice woman literally brought those glasses from crime 451 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 2: car it. Man, I'm just a josh. I'm hanging around. 452 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: I'm a single dad with a great fourteen year old. 453 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 2: I know people think I lead some sort of crazy Nope, 454 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: I'm a regular man. I drove a truck. The love 455 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 2: and care those feel so oft like it just it. 456 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 2: It really is moving, and I lap it up. I 457 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: love that kind of care. I'll be greedy about it. 458 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 2: They're the nicest people. 459 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: When I say, how you know generous Susan hendricks is, 460 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. She brought books for everybody, charged no. 461 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: One, And people don't get exactly how brave the career 462 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 2: pivot and that she did. What Like she totally could 463 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 2: have gone and done some fluffy stuff. And she is 464 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 2: a deeply accomplished broadcaster. She's got a built in audience. 465 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 2: Someone will pay her a very reasonable living to be 466 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 2: on the air somewhere. She didn't do that, and she 467 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: didn't do Oh here's true crime. I'm gonna go do 468 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 2: this stint. No, she picked a case that really meant something, 469 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: and I don't believe anybody could go deeper than she has, 470 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: and I think she's going to be the expert on 471 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: something that I still believe. There's chapters and chapters of 472 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 2: the Delphi story waiting to get told. It is it 473 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: remains an important part of discussion in the general crime 474 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 2: and justice universe because of what we all saw happened 475 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: in a trial that I don't know anybody that should 476 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: be happy with what we saw. 477 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: Agreed, and Franz, you know another thing that I thought 478 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: was so great. Everybody in that room knew you as 479 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: a famous defense attorney, but you were once a prosecutor, 480 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: and of course Josh famous defense attorney. But something super 481 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: cool happened that night. And you know, when I introduced 482 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: Jerryon Shepherd, Detective Shepherd, I didn't know what story he 483 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: might tell. I didn't know all the case or background, 484 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: and he started talking about Melissa Wolfenberger. And for y'all 485 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: that don't know, I have a book coming out in May, 486 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: and this is the case that jerry On and I 487 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: worked together. And you know, we got kicked in the 488 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: That's all I can tell you, and it was not 489 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: what we wanted it to be. But when I tell y'all, 490 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: Susan and Josh and Joe Scott, Morgan and Nancy Grace, 491 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: every single person helped in some way on this case. Everyone. 492 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: And so he got up and he started to talk, 493 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: and I don't think he really knew what was going 494 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: to happen in that room. He didn't know any of 495 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: the other people. He certainly didn't know any of the 496 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: guests or fans or people that wanted to participate. 497 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 3: He didn't. 498 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: And Franz, all of a sudden, You and Josh made 499 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: him feel welcome and relaxed. Joe Scott and Susan made 500 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: him feel great, right, And then Franz when everybody started 501 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: clapping and several people stood to their feet, he literally 502 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: took about four steps back from that microphile. 503 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: That man. 504 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 3: Let me tell you, we have a lot of personality 505 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 3: in the true crime world, the nature of lawyers, right, 506 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 3: And so what was refreshing for me was here's a 507 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 3: guy that stands up and couldn't be more Clark Kent 508 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 3: but superman in the same clothes and very humble, very modest, 509 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 3: very soft smoke. And to me he was one of 510 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 3: the most interesting. You know, Yes, it was awesome listening 511 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 3: to Nancy Grace tell stories and answer questions. But to me, 512 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: to me, the Clark Kent superman of that of that 513 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 3: event was that detective. Yeah. 514 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: My daughter actually commented that his stories because she's seen 515 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 2: so she was really enthralled and thought that he was 516 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: the best speaker of everybody because she she he was 517 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: so authentic and real and just just you. You never 518 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: get to hear it like that from someone like that. 519 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: It was one of those moments, like you said, Josh, 520 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean, lightning might not strike twice, but he got 521 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: pretty freaking close. Yeah. 522 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: Now that was a special unique, That was an event. 523 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: It was just it was really everything hit so well. 524 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: And Joe Scott Morgan, I mean he about took the 525 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: walls down. I've known that man over thirty years. Never 526 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 1: heard that story, and y'all I ain't gonna tell it. 527 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make y'all come to something and make him 528 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: tell it again. It was that good. I told him, 529 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: I said, how if I never heard this story? And 530 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: he disagree in and he went, you don't know everything 531 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: about me. I'm like, well, clearly. 532 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 3: Let me say. Let me say this, the best looking 533 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 3: and sounded man in that room may have been him. 534 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 3: And look again, I have a heightened sense of self worth, 535 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 3: as Josh will tell you. But I mean, you look, 536 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 3: I'm just if I'm listening to this, if I'm listening 537 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 3: to this episode, this recording, I'm wondering, how can I 538 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: attend one of these? Where can I attend one of these? 539 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: And I know you're I know you're Lesha the Gates, 540 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 3: and this is gonna be something that people can go to. 541 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 3: But this is really just it was fun. It was 542 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 3: a lot of fun. 543 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: And here's the great thing to watch somebody like Nancy 544 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: Grace because again, when she walks in that room means 545 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: you could have robbed the bartender and nobody would have 546 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: seen you do a thing. And so she gets to 547 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: the microphone and she did something I thought that was 548 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: so genius. She's like, y'all know all my stories. I'm 549 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: gonna take all your questions as long as you have questions, y'all. 550 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: She must have taken a hundred questions. 551 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 3: And I'm not kidding. Stay like she was awesome. 552 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: Stayed yeah, And it was like it was like you're 553 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: on the show man. It was real Nancy. There was 554 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: no you know, gentle hint, No, there was it was 555 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: the real Nancy. 556 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: It was the real Nancy, and it was the real 557 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: Nancy own Faya because she's great behind a microphone, but 558 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: when she's got a live audience that she can make 559 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: laugh or gasp or mad. 560 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: Oh, she was having a fun time for someone who's 561 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: a professional talker, getting that small format, intimate audience. You know, 562 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: we're talking like a couple hundred people like she that 563 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 2: room was eating everything out of her hands and just 564 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: folks love it. She's got that personality. Come on, she's 565 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: she's who she is for a reason. She walks in 566 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 2: and it got popping, like people were really really excited. 567 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 3: That's the number one question I get asked the few 568 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 3: times I've been blessed to be on her show playing 569 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: token defense attorney, which is a lot of fun. 570 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: The number one makes no dude. 571 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: It took me two or three episodes to realize that's 572 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 3: what she wanted, and I got my cookie at the 573 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 3: end of doing it. So but people ask me what 574 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 3: does she really like? And I look at him, I'm like, 575 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 3: what you see is what you get? That is it 576 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 3: is not an act? 577 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's the real Nancy and she brings 578 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 2: it and she's unapologetic about it and she happens one 579 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 2: of her dear friends happens to be a legendary long 580 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: term lawyer here that I'm also friends with, and so 581 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: we got to see Renee as well. Who is man? 582 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: Talk about a memoir I want to read? 583 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, Lord, do you know how many people have to 584 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: die before that can happen? 585 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 2: Though, Oh my god, Renee has Oh you just unless 586 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: you know her, it's impossible to describe. She may be 587 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 2: the most just singular lawyer I've ever practiced in the 588 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 2: orbit of because she's a universe to herself like and 589 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: the way she walks around. Man, ain't nobody does better 590 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: than Renee Like. Renee is the kind of lawyer that 591 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: can correct the judge in the middle of the case. 592 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 2: It's She's just she's something special. 593 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: And like I told y'all, sometime you're going to need one. Well, 594 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: one time I needed her. So I'm just telling you, 595 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, you need those friends, you need all those 596 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: kind of people. I want to end and I just 597 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: want to hear from both of you. Just you can 598 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: just sum up what that night was for you and y'all. 599 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: We are headed to North Carolina on February twenty eighth. 600 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: I'll be posting stuff about it on our social medias. 601 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: We've got Florida already planned, we've got Pennsylvania plan, we've 602 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: got Ohio plan. So we're coming. We've just got to 603 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: make sure everything is locked and signed before we put 604 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: stuff out. But North Carolina set for February twenty eighth 605 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: at I'll be posting about it, but I want to 606 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,240 Speaker 1: hear from the two of y'all just kind of here's 607 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: the reason you would want to come to a ten 608 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: eight ten eight. The reason we're calling the tour the 609 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: ten eight tour is ten eight is a police code 610 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: that means I'm done with my last call. I'm ready 611 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 1: for the next call. In other words, I'm open, I'm ready, 612 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm available. What's next? Give me something? And that to 613 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: me just kind of set the tone for what this is. 614 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: When Josh and I talk, we may talk about Lisk 615 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: one night. Then we're going to talk about what happened 616 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: in this shooting, and we're gonna have about the missing 617 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: person over here, We're going to talk about the serial 618 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: killer over here. Same with Franz. What's next, what's next? 619 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 3: What can we do? 620 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: Who else can we help? So that's the reason we 621 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 1: called it the ten eight tour. So Franz, I'll start 622 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: with you just sum it up for me. 623 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: So for me, what it was was it was kind 624 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 3: of like the acoustical version of all the true crime 625 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 3: put together. It's the unplugged, up close and personal talking 626 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 3: to people. And honestly, the first time I ever did 627 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 3: anything with Cheryl john As you were there and we 628 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 3: were talking about Karen Reid and we had diametrically different 629 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 3: views on Karen Reid, but it was that kind of 630 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 3: conversational piece and where you could reach out and touch 631 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 3: the people in the audience and they could do that 632 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 3: to you. And then what was really nice was we 633 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 3: took breaks and people would come up and start talking 634 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 3: to us and we'd answer questions or we'd answer questions 635 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 3: on the mic. So to me, it's like, if you're 636 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 3: looking for that unplugged, unplugged true crime experience, that is 637 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 3: what this event was and is. And as far as 638 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 3: I'm concerned. 639 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll echo a lot of that, but I'll 640 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 2: add I'm at this kind of interesting juncture in my 641 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 2: life where there's a lot going on. I'm slowing down 642 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 2: my actual personal practice to concentrate on some other law 643 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 2: adjacent things, including some philanthropy, including some political stuff like 644 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 2: becoming an advocate for domestic violence because I think we 645 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 2: need some domestic violence form. And it was just a 646 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 2: particularly poignant night for me to go and be welcomed 647 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 2: so much by Cheryl, by the whole Stone seven community, 648 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 2: as it was a kind of an arrival of sorts. 649 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 2: That was a night I will forever remember. Franz is 650 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 2: one of my dear friends. I love the opportunity we 651 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: got to spend a few days together. He got to 652 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 2: stay at the house, got to hang out with my daughter. 653 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 2: The penultimate event was hanging out with all these great people, 654 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: including my daughter, and getting to really revel in. Man, Josh, 655 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: this is a great place for you that you're really 656 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: happy at and you can derive enormous personal satisfaction and 657 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 2: care and you can care back because these are people 658 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: that care about the same stuff that you do. And 659 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 2: I really like that. And it was a wonderful evening. 660 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 2: I look forward to the next ones. 661 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: I love you both, I admire you both. And you 662 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: know again, folks, both of these men have given me 663 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: fabulous advice. I mean, Fruens has said, hey, when that 664 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: book comes out, swans. Don't swim in the sewer. You 665 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: need to you know, talk it. You need to do 666 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: an audio book. That's so sweet. Josh is the first 667 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: one that told me don't ever say the following, and 668 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,240 Speaker 1: I went, ooh, I think that's all over that book. 669 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: So I had to take some things out. But you know, 670 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 1: good advice people that cheer for you, y'all. I preach 671 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: this all the time about Zone seven. If you are 672 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: hanging out with people that do not have the best 673 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 1: for you in mind, or working against you, or talking 674 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: trash behind your back, get rid of them. There are 675 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: good people out there. There are you're listening to two 676 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: of them right now. Thank you, Cheryl, and y'all, I'm 677 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: on end Zone seven. The way that I always do 678 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:09,919 Speaker 1: with a quote true friendship is when two friends walk 679 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: in opposite directions, but yet are side by side. I'm 680 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.