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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: A shock Coburger claim that an eyewitness says the killer

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Speaker 2: fled the murder scene with a hand hel vacuum. And

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Speaker 2: now after reading court documents, we learn did Coburger get

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Speaker 2: rid of his shower curtain?

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Speaker 1: Wonder why?

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Speaker 2: I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for being with us. Just around three am and a

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Speaker 2: man named.

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Speaker 1: Brian Christopher Coburger was taken into custody.

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Speaker 3: Coburger claims he was driving his car as he often

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Speaker 3: did to hike and run and or see the moon

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Speaker 3: and stars.

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Speaker 4: Our defens team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in

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Speaker 4: mister Coberger's innocense.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, she may be firm in her belief, but

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Speaker 2: a grand jury has handed down and with Trubal charging

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Speaker 2: him with four murders, the murders of four Beautiful University

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Speaker 2: Idaho students dead slaughtered in their beds, and tonight we

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Speaker 2: learned the eyewitness states the killer fled the scene with

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Speaker 2: a hand that listen.

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Speaker 4: Hippler's ruling also revealed new details of what surviving roommate

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Speaker 4: Dylan Mortenson saw the night of the murders in the

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Speaker 4: closed door hearing, the defense attempts to argue Mortenson's account

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Speaker 4: is unreliable, and while the judge agrees Mortensen was likely

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Speaker 4: drunk during the murders, he points out that her statements

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Speaker 4: to police were very similar each time, and other evidence

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Speaker 4: corroborates what she witnessed. Hipler reveals that in Mortenson's second

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Speaker 4: and third interviews, she mentions the suspect carrying what looked

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Speaker 4: to be a handheld vacuum.

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Speaker 2: Oh, according to reports, that is so Coburger with the

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Speaker 2: hand hell of that?

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Speaker 1: Who else would do that? Now?

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Speaker 2: Guys, let me get straight out to Hermonia Rodriguez joining

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Speaker 2: US chief US reporter with Dailymail dot Com and host

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Speaker 2: off Welcome to magaaland podcast.

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Speaker 1: No Politics on crime stories.

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Speaker 2: Okay, no crime, no crime victim is a political football,

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Speaker 2: So everybody keep your politics to yourself. Back to the

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Speaker 2: hand that, Harmonia, What do you know?

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Speaker 5: That's right?

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Speaker 6: These new court documents are offering new details about the

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Speaker 6: investigation that led police to Brian Coberger. We know that

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Speaker 6: there were surviving roommates that were in the house and

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Speaker 6: one of them said that she saw a boushy eyed man.

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Speaker 6: We know Coburger's eyebrows have been a topic of debate

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Speaker 6: after this surviving witness said they saw a white, tall

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Speaker 6: man with bushy eyebrows.

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Speaker 1: Now now we.

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Speaker 6: Know that she also said in following interviews that he

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Speaker 6: was carrying Okay, that's bushie.

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Harmonia, look that Okay, hold that is bushi.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead. Correct.

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Speaker 6: That has been a topic of discussion, and that part

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Speaker 6: of the witnesses testimony has never changed the description of

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Speaker 6: what the suspect to look like. However, it appears on

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Speaker 6: in her initial interviews she hadn't mentioned the handheld vacuum.

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Speaker 1: Now we know that this witness has.

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Speaker 6: Said her mind wasn't clear, that she was kind of

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Speaker 6: in a dream like state. Of course, Coberger's team of

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Speaker 6: lawyers have gone after this young woman's credibility, saying that

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Speaker 6: what she is saying cannot be trusted because she admitted.

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Speaker 1: To being in a not clear state of mind.

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Speaker 6: Now, the judge said that even Ifmonia and put her up, Harmonia,

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Speaker 6: I asked you about the handheld vack and so far what.

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Speaker 2: I've heard is everything wrong. When the eyewitnesses statement, can

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Speaker 2: you tell me about the vacuum? I'll give do Bay

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Speaker 2: a chance to slice the poor witness to shreds before

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Speaker 2: I so were back together again? Thatack vack vacuum harmonia.

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Speaker 1: Right, so, as I said.

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Speaker 6: The surviving roommate said she saw the suspect bushy eyebrowed

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Speaker 6: suspect leaving with a hand held vacuum. She also had

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Speaker 6: said as we already knew that the suspect said something

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Speaker 6: like I'm here to help before he exited their home

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Speaker 6: through a sliding door quietly. This witness has said she

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Speaker 6: then went back to sleep. Wasn't clear on what happened,

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Speaker 6: but she has repeated in several interviews this detail about

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Speaker 6: the handheld vacuum.

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Speaker 2: Well, obviously it stood out in her mind. She says,

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Speaker 2: Oh my stars, he had a handback. That's not the

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Speaker 2: kind of detail you can insert into someone's memory. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I need a shrink before Dubay jumps on this. Doctor

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Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall joining us, so, I say, COO analyst joining

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Speaker 2: us out of la, author of deal Breakers. You can

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Speaker 2: find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. You can see

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Speaker 2: her now on Peacock Doctor Bethany. It doesn't end there.

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Speaker 1: Everybody on the.

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Speaker 2: Panel, I want you to envision what you have in

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Speaker 2: your closet, what you keep in the deep dark recesses

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Speaker 2: in the back of your closet.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now listen to this.

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Speaker 3: The defense also argues that Moscow Pede failed to disclose

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Speaker 3: that lab testing did not reveal any of the victims

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Speaker 3: DNA in Coburger's car or apartment, but a search warrant

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Speaker 3: return did list a vacuum candister having been removed from

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Speaker 3: a closet in Coburger's Pullman apartment, where investigators also found

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Speaker 3: a black glove and receipts. Coburger's shower curtains had been removed,

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Speaker 3: and all trash cans were empty.

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Speaker 2: Well, he's certainly the Nate Nick. There's a lot there

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Speaker 2: to dissect. But can we just talk about the fact

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Speaker 2: that in his closet, in the back, dark, deep recesses

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Speaker 2: of his closet, he has a vacuum canister a spare?

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Speaker 1: Do you have one of those in your closet? By

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Speaker 1: all your designers? She used, doctor Bethany, I bet you die,

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Speaker 1: I do not.

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Speaker 2: Can we talk about the killer with a handbag? What

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Speaker 2: does it say, Nancy?

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Speaker 7: We use handbags to clean things up, right, So obviously

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Speaker 7: he was anticipating a messy scene and the fact that

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Speaker 7: he would need to clean things up, or he was

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Speaker 7: looking for tokens or fetishes or something he could suck

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Speaker 7: up before he left, so he would have something to

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Speaker 7: play with, toy with. But I think it's likely that

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Speaker 7: it was just an instrument for cleaning after at the

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Speaker 7: commission of a crime which obviously he got scared off

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Speaker 7: and he didn't complete.

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Speaker 2: Okay, maybe I'm the crazy one on this panel, but

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Speaker 2: I guess I have to spell it out for Joe

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan and doctor Bethany Marshall.

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Speaker 1: But I need the help.

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Speaker 2: Of doctor Monte Miller joining US Director Forensic DNA Expert

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Speaker 2: Specialist and forensic Science forensic Scientists for Texas Department Public Safety.

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Speaker 1: And it goes on and on.

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Speaker 2: You can find doctor Monty Miller at Crime Lab Forensic

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Speaker 2: DNA Experts dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Monte Miller.

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Speaker 2: Okay, address on the blackboard, spell it out for me.

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Speaker 2: Why would a killer bring a handback to a murder scene?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean did he bring it or did he

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Speaker 5: take it from there?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I mean you would only bring it for you know,

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Speaker 5: to clean up, to like vacuum stuff off of you

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Speaker 5: and things like that, so that you wouldn't leave it

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Speaker 5: in your car, So he might have just brought his

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Speaker 5: own and then kind of used it to clean himself

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Speaker 5: up so that he doesn't leave a mess in his car.

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Speaker 5: They didn't find anything in his car, and maybe because

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Speaker 5: he cleaned up.

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Speaker 2: Obviously he took the handback to get rid of evidence.

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Speaker 2: And no, he did not steal their vacuum cleaner. He

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Speaker 2: took the vacuum cleaner with him. The only question is

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Speaker 2: why I'm going to give Joe Scott Morgan another swing

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Speaker 2: at the ball be succinct.

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Speaker 9: So you're telling me that he thought so far ahead

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Speaker 9: that he's going to bring a handheld back with him

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Speaker 9: in addition to a knife, and he's going to take

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Speaker 9: time to utilize this vacuum cleaner in order to clean

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Speaker 9: up what's he going to clean up? All of the

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Speaker 9: wet blood in there? Because it's not going to work.

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Speaker 9: This guy's supposed to be some kind of forensic genius.

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Speaker 9: Remember they've talked about this forever and ever. This is

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Speaker 9: not going to be appropriate for the task at hand.

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Speaker 9: I can't I would.

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Speaker 1: He put him up. Scott Scott, my friend and colleague.

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Speaker 2: He brings a handback to the same that's what prosecutors

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Speaker 2: are going to argue to clean up Evans?

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Speaker 1: Was that feasible? Did it make sense?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 1: But think think think, you think, think, use that noodle.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, what does he do for a little He

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Speaker 2: teaches forensic science, criminology.

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Speaker 9: And his inflating what he does with forensic science. I've

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Speaker 9: gone over this over and over and over again. He

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Speaker 9: is studying criminal You're just.

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Speaker 2: Saying that because you're a forensic you don't like to

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Speaker 2: with you. He's a PhD student criminologist. He's a team

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Speaker 2: a teaching assistant.

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Speaker 9: In criminology, not forensic science. Okay, just because you.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Okay, he certainly knows, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: You know what, let's just everybody stipulate he's know Joe

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan. Now that's with his limited understanding as a

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Speaker 2: student of criminology. He takes a handback to the murder scene,

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Speaker 2: thinking somehow he's going to get rid of evidence.

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Speaker 1: Obviously that's not feasible. But in his.

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Speaker 2: Mind, having only got book learning about crime, I mean,

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Speaker 2: why else would he bring a handback to the scene.

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Speaker 1: Again, be succinct.

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Speaker 9: He not going to bring a handheld back to the scene.

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Speaker 9: I don't believe it. I'm just not buying this is

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Speaker 9: what he brought to this case.

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Speaker 2: So are you saying he still Are you saying he

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Speaker 2: stole it? Did he steal a handback? I guess house

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Speaker 2: and steals a handbag?

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Speaker 9: We have to go back?

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Speaker 1: Well, then are you saying the witness is lying?

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Speaker 9: No, I'm saying that she's not remembering correctly, is what

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Speaker 9: I'm saying. You know, bushy eyebrow's face covered, it's dark.

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Speaker 9: You know she's saying that he also had a hand

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Speaker 9: handhaild vack.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you are accepting part of her description but

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Speaker 2: not the other part because you, a professor forensics, doesn't

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Speaker 2: think it's feasible. You know what, Let me just jog

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Speaker 2: everyone's recollection.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 3: The police source says Brian Coberger cleaned his car meticulously,

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Speaker 3: both inside and out, in the days leading up to

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Speaker 3: his arrests. The source, speaking anonymously, says, during the four

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Speaker 3: days of surveillance at the Coburger family's Pennsylvania home, the

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Speaker 3: suspect was detailing his white Honda a Lantra quote not

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Speaker 3: missing an inch. Some of the trash taken from the

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Speaker 3: car was deposited in a neighbor's trash bin at four

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Speaker 3: a m. Agents recovered the garbage and some items were

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Speaker 3: sent to the Idaho State Lab for testing. Detectives also

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Speaker 3: seized a car vacuum reportedly used to clean out vehicle.

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Speaker 2: Okay, doctor Bethany Marshall, that's what we call a pattern

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Speaker 2: m modus operadi method of operation. He's cleaning up at

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Speaker 2: three and four am, wearing underwear, shorts and plastic gloves

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Speaker 2: at his parents' house. He's putting I guess, evidence into

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Speaker 2: separate plastic bags, putting them in the Dixie dumpster and

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Speaker 2: putting them in the neighbors trash wearing plastic gloves.

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Speaker 1: When they go to his home.

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Speaker 2: His apartment in Woman, ten minutes away from the murder scene.

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Speaker 2: His apartment is meticulous, no trash in the trash cans,

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Speaker 2: and he has destroyed gotten rid of his shower curtain.

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Speaker 1: Think think, think think.

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Speaker 2: Of course, he took a hand back to the murder

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Speaker 2: scene and his limited understanding of what a murder scene

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Speaker 2: really is. You know, he's seen pictures and read books.

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Speaker 2: He thinks he can remove forensic evidence.

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Speaker 1: It fits perfectly with what we know of him.

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Speaker 7: Okay, So, Nancy, I think he's obsessive, compulsive, and we

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Speaker 7: see this in this meticulous planning to commit this crime.

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Speaker 7: He probably researched it. There's probably evidence in his computers.

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Speaker 7: He probably thought about it day and night, probably prepared

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Speaker 7: the car, prepared the handbag to take there, and he

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Speaker 7: probably meticulously studied the house. So criminals who want to

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Speaker 7: commit to homicide, not only are they compulsive, meaning they

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Speaker 7: just they can't discharge a new vitralized anxiety without committing

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Speaker 7: an act, but they also become so obsessed with every

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Speaker 7: single detail.

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Speaker 1: Joining me.

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Speaker 2: Now we've been holding him at Bay renowned defense attorney

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Speaker 2: joining us out.

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Speaker 1: On la Philip Dubay, Okay, have at it?

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Speaker 5: Have it?

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Speaker 10: What I mean, Listen, a lot of unsophisticated criminals think

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Speaker 10: that a dustbuster is going to pick up all shedding,

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Speaker 10: slough off in trace evidence. It's ridiculous. It's not going

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Speaker 10: to happen. You're going to leave behind minuscule.

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Speaker 5: Pieces of.

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Speaker 1: Hair follicles, skin.

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Speaker 10: Follicles, You're going to leave behind dust, your own DNA,

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Speaker 10: your own touch DNA. And to think that a dustbuster

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Speaker 10: is going to clean up the scene is actually lappable.

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Speaker 10: And frankly, this could support the argument that maybe he

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Speaker 10: is a little on the spectrum because it's kind.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So to me that argument, you have to admit

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Speaker 2: he did the crime. If you're claiming some sort of

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Speaker 2: midtal defense, you have the only way to do that

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Speaker 2: under our American jurisprudence is to say I did it,

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Speaker 2: but I was insane. Okay, Now, under the spectrum does

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Speaker 2: not rise to insanity. We all know that, let's not

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Speaker 2: most lead anyone regarding the definition of insanity in our country.

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Speaker 2: So of course it's a given to everybody on this

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Speaker 2: panel and probably all of our viewers that a.

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Speaker 1: Handback is not going to get rid of evidence.

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Speaker 2: The point is a person obsessed with crime, a person

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Speaker 2: that only knows about crime through boot learning and a classroom,

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Speaker 2: has never been to an actual murder scene, has no

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Speaker 2: idea what that encompasses. A person that is anal compulsive, fastidious,

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Speaker 2: that is known to vacuum excessively, even keeping an extra

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Speaker 2: vacuum canister in the deep dark recesses of his closet

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Speaker 2: would bring a handback to a murder scene. This is

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Speaker 2: him fitting him to a t. I don't understand the

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Speaker 2: issue you got having. Chris McDonough you're the homicide investigator.

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Speaker 2: Is this making any sense? Or am I just screaming

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Speaker 2: out the window on Third Avenue here?

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Speaker 11: Well, there's a there's another possibility. I mean, remember, whatever

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Speaker 11: comes into that scene, there's a potential that it doesn't leave,

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Speaker 11: i e.

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Speaker 1: Cross contamination.

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Speaker 11: And so I'm with Doc Morgan on this one, to

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Speaker 11: be honest with you, because the other possibility is we

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Speaker 11: don't know if one of the victims picked up that

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Speaker 11: handback and use it as a weapon of defense whilst

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Speaker 11: they were being attacked.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you've all gone insane.

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Speaker 12: The person who did his crime looked at one of

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Speaker 12: the victims instead.

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Speaker 8: I'm here to help me.

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Speaker 12: If that's not malice. That's the most type of people

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Speaker 12: that you could ever hear.

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Speaker 1: It shouldn't be rewarded.

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Speaker 7: With the suit and a first chirut every time of

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Speaker 7: what he can do.

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Speaker 12: That's why that's wow.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to an investigative reporter.

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Speaker 2: The chief US reporter with Dailymail dot Com, host of

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Magaland podcast, Harmonia Rodriguez Harmonia the Latest, it's

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Speaker 2: a bottshell. The defense is arguing coburger surfers autism.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's truly shocking. They file this motion on Monday.

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Speaker 6: It's worth noting that this defense team has filed many

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Speaker 6: different motions and defenses that have delayed this case for

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Speaker 6: years now. The latest they are asking that prosecutors do

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Speaker 6: not seek the death penalty because Coburger they say it's

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Speaker 6: on the autism spectrum. Again, this is the first time

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Speaker 6: we hear this. We have never heard before that Coburger

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Speaker 6: is autistic. Now this is going to be another court fight.

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Speaker 6: While I'm sure the prosecution asks for any evidence of

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Speaker 6: this autism as again, it has never been introduced to

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Speaker 6: court before. In their motion, the defense has not filed

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Speaker 6: any evidence, any testing to support disclaim of autism, but

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Speaker 6: they want the death penalty punishment dropped before the trials.

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Speaker 2: Harmonia Rodriguez, correct me if I'm wrong, But didn't the

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Speaker 2: murders occur just before Thanksgiving break at University Idaho specifically

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Speaker 2: November thirteen, twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? That's a yes. No, that's that's all right.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So Harmonia, you're telling me it has taken from

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Speaker 2: eleven thirteen twenty two two February twenty five for them

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Speaker 2: to determine that Coburger is autistic.

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Speaker 6: That's right, Nancy, it's a shocker. We have never heard

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Speaker 6: this before from the defense team. As again, it's another

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Speaker 6: motion that's going to delay things. Cober Girl already had

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Speaker 6: the district of his trial change, the judge change, and

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Speaker 6: now the defense wants to start litigating at this point

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Speaker 6: years later, whether Coberger is autistic or not.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to psychoaalyst doctor Bethany Marshall joining us from

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Speaker 2: LA specifically, it stated a quote motion to striking the

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Speaker 2: death penalty ray autism regarding autism spectrum disorder that has

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Speaker 2: just been filed by Coburger's defense.

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Speaker 1: I'd like you to weigh in, doctor Bethany. Nancy, this

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Speaker 1: is just a delay tactic.

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Speaker 7: And one of the things we know about autistic individuals

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Speaker 7: is that they notoriously lack insight into what is going

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Speaker 7: on in the minds of others. They have a hard

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Speaker 7: time reading social cues. But what we know about serial

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Speaker 7: killers is that they are keenly interested in what goes

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Speaker 7: on in the minds of others, stalking them, tracking them,

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Speaker 7: and trying to instill fear and terror as they're killing them. So,

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Speaker 7: on the one hand, you have autism, where the person

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Speaker 7: has little interest in what goes on in the mind

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Speaker 7: of the other. And then you have the psychopath, the

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Speaker 7: alleged psychopath who's obsessed with the state of fear that

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Speaker 7: he's going to induce, you know. And now see, there

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Speaker 7: were a lot of witnesses to students who were in

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Speaker 7: Coburger's class. None of them said that he had Askebergers

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Speaker 7: or autism.

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Speaker 2: Well, what would be some symptoms or some indicators that

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Speaker 2: he could be on the spectrum.

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Speaker 7: Well, learning disorders that persist throughout the lifespan, narrow range.

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Speaker 2: Of pH d student. He's a pH d student, he's

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Speaker 2: a teaching.

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Speaker 1: Assistant communicators person.

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Speaker 2: Okay, he's a PhD student making all a's. You know,

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Speaker 2: doctor Bethy, let me just throw something at you. A

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Speaker 2: few names. These are people that either discuss their autism,

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Speaker 2: are suspected of autism, that they had autism, or who

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Speaker 2: exhibit those symptoms.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Albert Einstein, Anthony Hopkins, Elon Musk, Dan Ackroyd, Susan Boyle,

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Speaker 2: Darryl Hannah, Tim Burton, Greta Thurnberg, Bill Gates, Sir Isaac Newton,

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Speaker 2: Emily Dickinson. Jerry Seinfeld has spoken about his experiences with

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Speaker 2: autism and is an advocate, Bobby Fisher, the great chess champion,

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Speaker 2: Charles Darwin, Courtney Love, Lionel Messy, Michlangelo, and Mozart.

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah, Andy Warhol. I mean help me.

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Speaker 7: Well, you know, Nancy, I will say that one of

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Speaker 7: the symptoms of automism is an obsession or preoccupation with

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Speaker 7: one single thing or set of things. Like an autistic

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Speaker 7: child might pick up a train and just turned it

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Speaker 7: over and over and over again in his hand and

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Speaker 7: have no interest in the people in the room or

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Speaker 7: social in that interaction or engagement. They just want that

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Speaker 7: one thing. And it could be that he was his

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Speaker 7: one obsession was these four students.

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Speaker 1: He's a PhD student. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Out to Phillip Debay, veteran defense attorneys won a lot

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Speaker 2: of cases in court. Debay, he's a PhD student, he's

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Speaker 2: making all a's. He's a teaching assistant, he teaches classes.

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Speaker 2: How can this be? How can this be a defense?

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Speaker 2: And it's my understanding in every jurisdiction in our country,

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Speaker 2: to launch a mental defense, such as insanity or impairment,

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Speaker 2: you must first admit you did the deed. You have

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Speaker 2: to say I did it, but I'm autistic. I did it,

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Speaker 2: but I'm insane.

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Speaker 10: That's correct, But first of all, Idaho abergated the insanity defense.

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Speaker 10: It doesn't even exist since nineteen eighty two, so you

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Speaker 10: can't even put that on. Having said that, whenever you're

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Speaker 10: charged with capital murder, at least in the data Idaho,

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Speaker 10: you're on two tracks, the guilt phase and the penalty phase.

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Speaker 10: Court appointed Council right now is working up both phases

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Speaker 10: of trial. Their endgame, their agenda right now is to

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Speaker 10: spare his life. It's clear from all their defeats in

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Speaker 10: court that they realize that Brian Koberger is going down

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Speaker 10: in the guilt phase. So right now they're trying to

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Speaker 10: save his life. Back in I think it was two

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Speaker 10: thousand and two, the US Supreme Court held of usv. Atkins,

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Speaker 10: that you cannot execute the developmentally or the intellectually disabled. Now,

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Speaker 10: that does not mean that you have to be living

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Speaker 10: with profound mental retardation or a profound disorder on the

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Speaker 10: aptism spectrum. The question is for the court and for

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Speaker 10: the jury is does he have a true concept of reality?

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Speaker 10: Because of this type of learning disability, it only goes

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Speaker 10: to mitigation to spare his life, not to guilt.

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Speaker 5: Two.

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Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnald joining me, founder of the Cold Case Foundation,

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Speaker 2: former homicide detective with literally hundreds of death investigations under

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Speaker 2: his belt. I found him on his YouTube channel, the

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Speaker 2: Interview Room, and he has researched and investigated the Idaho

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Speaker 2: slaves himself.

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Speaker 1: Chris McDonough.

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Speaker 2: Let me just throw this at you, since my experts

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Speaker 2: seem to ignore it whenever I say it. According to

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Speaker 2: Harmonia Rodriguez and the court filing, she's right. The defense

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Speaker 2: is now filing motion to strike death penalty regarding autism

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Speaker 2: spectrum disorder.

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Speaker 1: Chris, He's a PhD student that.

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Speaker 2: Teaches criminology and supervises dozens and dozens of students.

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Speaker 1: Do you buy it?

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Speaker 11: No, I don't buy it. And two words right, thought control.

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Speaker 1: It's not thought you.

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Speaker 2: Were going to say as go ahead, Well, well, and

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Speaker 2: I'm about ready to get there one hundred percent.

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Speaker 11: Nancy, where you know this guy if he's our guy,

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Speaker 11: which the DNA evidence is pointing that he potentially could be. Allegedly,

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Speaker 11: this guy is methodical and that means you know they're

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Speaker 11: going to look at a state of mind from the

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Speaker 11: prosecution side, does you know more than anybody. You know

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Speaker 11: what's his what's his evil intent here? Does he have

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Speaker 11: an evil mind? And does he know that society everything

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Speaker 11: that he would do once he committed that crime would

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Speaker 11: be looked under that looked at through that lens. So

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Speaker 11: I think he is playing a game here, and I

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Speaker 11: think that the defense attorneys are listening to what he's

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Speaker 11: probably saying behind the scenes. It won't surprise me if

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Speaker 11: he ends up in the courtroom really pushing his defense

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Speaker 11: and the defense basically just becomes a sideline.

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Speaker 2: You mean, pushing the autistic theory and the defense to

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Speaker 2: the murders becomes a sideline.

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Speaker 8: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: You didn't get to the BS part.

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Speaker 11: Well. I think he's in deep here, and I think

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Speaker 11: the firing of his attorney recently, remember Ted Bundy did

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Speaker 11: the same thing, and a superior court judge says, you know,

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Speaker 11: mister Bundy, you're so smart. You really had an opportunity

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Speaker 11: of a future and I would have loved to hear

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Speaker 11: you defend other things in this court of law.

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Speaker 1: But you took the wrong path.

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Speaker 7: When you lived in a small college town. It occurred

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Speaker 7: to not know exactly.

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Speaker 3: Four students from University of Idaho murdered.

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Speaker 6: One of the neighbors down there of the growth called

443
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 6: and said, I want to tell you I'm.

444
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: A neighbor and Kaylee and Maddie are both dead.

445
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: Revelation We now learn an eyewitness says the killer fled

446
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: the scene of the Idaho slaves with a vacuum cleaner.

447
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: We assume that means a handvac Now welcome to the

448
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: crazy house, because I've got one guest claiming that he

449
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: stole the handback from the victims. I've got another guest

450
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: stay stating that a victim tried to fight off the.

451
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: Killer with a hand that reality check.

452
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: This will not be the first killer that tried to

453
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 2: sanitize a scene.

454
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: Does anybody recall Photus Dulo's photos.

455
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 13: Dulos, husband of missing Jennifer Dulo's, takes an employee's Toyota

456
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 13: Tacoma borrowed without permission, to a car wash and to

457
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 13: tail shop to try to clean a brown colored stain

458
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 13: from the seats. Dulos tells the employee to replace the

459
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 13: front seats, and he does, but keeps the originals, ultimately

460
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 13: giving them to police. Police allege the stains blood.

461
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 2: He's not the only one I assume you all remember

462
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: the beautiful young teacher out of Memphis, Eliza Fletcher, out

463
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: jogging minding her own business. Four thirty am was the

464
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 2: only time she could work out because.

465
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: She worked and took care of children. Remember her killer.

466
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 4: The man accused of abducting and murdering Eliza Fletcher, is

467
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 4: seen cleaning out his car just hours after the Memphis

468
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 4: teacher disappeared. Video shows Cleota Abston spending more than an

469
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 4: hour in the passenger side of his suv. A witness

470
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 4: says Abstin vigorously clean the interior of his car with

471
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 4: a carpet cleaner. Fletcher's dead body was found close to

472
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 4: where police said Abstin is seen cleaning out his vehicle.

473
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it goes on and on and on.

474
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 2: You've got Scott Peterson that suddenly cleaned the whole apartment,

475
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: the whole home after he murdered Lacy and Connor. You've

476
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: got Jody Arius who cleaned up and even did laundry.

477
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: Luckily, she left her digital.

478
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: Camera in the washing machine, which revealed her foot by

479
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: the dead body. But the cleaning, the obsessive cleaning, the

480
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: thought that you can somehow wash away forensics, that doesn't happen.

481
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, No, it doesn't.

482
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 9: I've held early on, and you know I've been proven wrong.

483
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 9: I think at this point in time, based on the evidence,

484
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 9: I held that the car was going to be quote

485
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 9: unquote a rolling crime scene, that it would be there'd

486
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 9: be so much transfer evidence in there. Because you know,

487
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 9: having worked many many sharp force injury related homicides over

488
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 9: the course of my career, you've got four victims. There's

489
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 9: no way that this individual could not have been potentially

490
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 9: supersaturated with blood and transferred that evidence into the car.

491
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 9: And right now that hasn't occurred. So yeah, you know,

492
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 9: when you think about it, I think that there is

493
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 9: obviously evidence that this guy is cleaning. However, what's the

494
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 9: choice here? Is he cleaning the crimes seen with a

495
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 9: handheld back or does he clean his car with a

496
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 9: hand held back? I don't know. Did he show up

497
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 9: he's so deranged and put him up?

498
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: Why do I have to choose?

499
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: You've got an eyewitness stating she sees the tall, white

500
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: male with bushy eyeberries, wearing a face mask, lean and

501
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: he's got a handback. You have, I mean this is

502
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: a pattern, Joe Scott. Then You've got his apartment immaculate,

503
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: where his shower curtain has been taken out and the

504
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: rings are still up there, but the shower curtain's gone.

505
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: What could possibly have been on it? Blood? Maybe think

506
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: he think?

507
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: And hiding an extra vacuum canister in the back of

508
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: his closet.

509
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: That's all deduction.

510
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: We know that the law enforcement watched him meticulously clean

511
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: out his car for hours.

512
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: His sister even said so.

513
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: Then they see him at three am cleaning out the

514
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: house getting rid of evidence.

515
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: He can't stop himself.

516
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: Does it make sense to you and I, to you

517
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: and me that he took in a handback.

518
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: To try to get rid of evidence.

519
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: Not because we've been to murder scenes we know that's impossible,

520
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: But a twenty nine year old pH D sceunit in

521
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: criminology who's never been to a real murder scene probably.

522
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: Thinks, hey, I can get rid of evidence.

523
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: He planned everything meticulously, Joe Scott, this is so am Yeah, but.

524
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 9: He still doesn't wear a belt where he can put

525
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 9: the sheath of the knife on it and hold it.

526
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 9: He leaves that behind. So if he's so ocd, you know,

527
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 9: why in the hell did he leave that critical piece

528
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 9: of evidence behind which, by the way, which by the

529
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 9: way contains allegedly his DNA. He left it behind, Nancy,

530
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 9: So Joscott go in, He's going.

531
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: To clean quiet.

532
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: We are not the engineers of the evidence. We take

533
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: it as we find it and we build our case.

534
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: How many times, Joe Scott, I'm really actually surprised at you.

535
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: How many times have we said, what an idiot?

536
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: Idiots because they do idiotic things. Well, you're even criminal masterminds.

537
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 9: Your supposition here is that everything is based upon this

538
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 9: eyewitness statement in the dark, in this hallway where you

539
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 9: can't make out specifics. So I don't know he's carrying

540
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 9: a handheld back. Well, gee whiz, what brand was it?

541
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 9: I don't know?

542
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: Okay, question to you, Joe Scott. You're doing what Philip

543
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: Dubay was doing earlier. That is, you're parsing.

544
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: You're cherry picking the parts of her eyewitness testimony that

545
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: you like. You're going to take some, Okay, So you

546
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: want to throw it all of her testimony?

547
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 9: Then, no, I want to know where was the knight?

548
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: You only want to keep the parts you like.

549
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 9: No, it's not that I want to keep. I want

550
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 9: to seek the truth in this and what is available?

551
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: Tell me why, and the witness says, handback, you know what,

552
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: let's talk about the shower curtain crime stories with Nancy

553
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: Grace Harmonio Rodriguez joining US chief US reporter dailymail dot Com.

554
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: Tell me about the missing shower curtain. That's right.

555
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 6: We know that Coberger took a lot of measures to

556
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 6: clean everything in his life following this murder. When detectives

557
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 6: reached his Washington home, they found that there was no

558
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 6: shower curtain, of course, suggesting maybe he could have taken

559
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 6: a shower in there and there was evidence in it

560
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 6: to get rid of. There was also no trash at all, Nancy,

561
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 6: and this is something that he was also doing in

562
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 6: his parents' house in Pennsylvania. He was not throwing his

563
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 6: own trash out. We know he was wearing gloves in

564
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 6: his parents' house, So we know Coburger tried to cover

565
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 6: his tracks, which is why, as your guests are mentioning,

566
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 6: there is a juxtaposition because he seemed to be so

567
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 6: careful in some ways, or attempted to be careful, but

568
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 6: then did things like leaving a knife sheet behind and

569
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 6: maybe thinking he could clean up a crime scene with

570
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 6: a handbag, which of course is absolutely impossible, and I

571
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 6: think he should have known that as.

572
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: A PhD student of criminology.

573
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 6: I mean, you may be able to pick up some hairs,

574
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 6: but he must have expected that this scene was going

575
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 6: to be bloody and that a handbag would not have help.

576
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 6: His home showed that he was taken measures to make

577
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 6: sure there was no evidence there.

578
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 12: I don't like you he did a white color craft.

579
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 12: This isn't a white color crime.

580
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 7: This is this.

581
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: Is people who you work your whole life.

582
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 12: To get him to go to college, and then they

583
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 12: get killed while they're sleep that night. And then this

584
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 12: guy like he just like traded insider trading, but his

585
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 12: own company stocks.

586
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: It's not white collar.

587
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: And as we go to air tonight, wehe Larren Coiburger

588
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: has replaced fired a lawyer Listen.

589
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 14: Brian Coburger is fine tuning the team that will represent

590
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 14: him at trial in August. Jay Logston and Idaho public

591
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,479
Speaker 14: defender assisting Ann Taylor will be replaced with a Northern

592
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 14: California attorney who specializes in DNA and previously testified as

593
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 14: a paid consultant for the defense, Biccob Barlow, formerly of

594
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 14: the San Francisco Public Defender's Office has been admitted to

595
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 14: the case pro Hawk Vice Barlow has run a private

596
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 14: law office with a focus on cases that involve forensic

597
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 14: DNA for over ten years and claims to have led

598
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 14: the first successful challenge of str DNA evidence in the US.

599
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: Ryan Heiberger is not the first famous celebrity defendant.

600
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: To get rid of their lawyer. Is a name Michael

601
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: Jackson ring a bell.

602
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 4: Just after Michael Jackson's Santa Barbara indictment on nine felony

603
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 4: accounts in the alleged molestation of a young boy, Jackson

604
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 4: fires his attorneys, Mark Garrigos and Benjamin Braffman, the singer

605
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 4: commenting that he needs the full attention of his representation

606
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 4: while his life is at stake.

607
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: Joining me.

608
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: Philip Debay, veteran trial lawyer out of the LA Jurisdiction,

609
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 2: has handled many a case in court. I remember when

610
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson fired Mark Garrigos and Mark Gegos has tried

611
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: a lot of cases, but Jackson did it.

612
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 10: Yeah, but there's a difference between being privately retained and

613
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 10: court appointed. In the court appointed cases, council can withdraw

614
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 10: if there is a conflict or if they feel they

615
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 10: don't have the skills that are required to do the representation,

616
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 10: so you bring somebody else on who's paid by the court.

617
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 10: It's very very common. In this particular case, Ann Taylor

618
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 10: is lead counsel. She's the captain of the ship, and

619
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 10: she needs to decide what, if any type of assistance

620
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 10: she needs by way of second chair, third chair, fourth chair,

621
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 10: who's going to do the science and who's going to

622
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 10: do the mitigation. And it seems like the people that

623
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 10: they had for the DNA or for the science weren't

624
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 10: well equipped enough to defend him with this mountain of

625
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 10: forensic evidence. And I think the endgame initially was to

626
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 10: try to get all the forensics suppressed. When that failed,

627
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 10: now is bringing onboard people who are really lettered and

628
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 10: schooled in the forensics.

629
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: Philip Dubay, do you think it has anything to do

630
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: with the replaced fired lawyer Logsden putting not one but

631
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: both feet in his mouth last week in court when

632
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: he described our country, America, let me get this right,

633
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: as a panopticon, which is essentially a large prison with guards,

634
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: a surveillance state where your privacy is going to be

635
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: trampled upon by the police.

636
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: He said that, and it made all the headlines.

637
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 10: Well, at a minimum, it's problematic because everybody's under a

638
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 10: gag order. You should not be talking to the press,

639
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 10: giving any media statements about the case, about the system,

640
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 10: about law enforcement.

641
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: It was in court. It was in court, open court.

642
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: Even a mouse in the corner could hear it. I

643
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about. Privacy, No, I understand.

644
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 10: But the point is, I don't think that's enough to

645
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 10: remove court appointed counsel from the case. You have to

646
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 10: show that counsel just simply cannot perform to the degree

647
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 10: other similarly attorneys perform constitutionally. Anyway.

648
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 7: A million people can tell me you don't let it consume you,

649
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 7: be patient, don't think about it, just you know.

650
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: But I am me.

651
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 14: I I can't.

652
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: This is my daughter to serve, best friend.

653
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 7: I can't stop. Just can you consume me by it?

654
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: In the last hour was a bombshell.

655
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: The defense now claims that they are advancing the theory

656
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: that Brian Coberg or the PhD student, the teaching assistant,

657
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: and the criminology department at Pullman is autistic. Harmonia Rodriguez again,

658
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: tell me about that claim.

659
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 1: Right, so this is a new claim.

660
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 6: We had never heard before in the years we have

661
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 6: been covering this case, and it's interesting that it comes

662
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 6: right after the Coburger defense team replaced one lawyer with

663
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 6: another who's more focused on DNA. It also came after

664
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 6: the judge said he was not going to throw out

665
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 6: the DNA and obtained through genetic tracking. Now, Coberger's defense

666
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 6: has asked the prosecution to drop the death penalty, claiming

667
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 6: that Coberger is in the autism spectrum. Again, they submitted

668
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 6: no evidence of this, no test, no historical documentation of

669
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 6: this diagnosis. So we are sure to see the prosecution

670
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 6: now ask for evidence of this alleged autistic diagnosis.

671
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 2: Doctor Monty Miller and joining me at a Riverside, California

672
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 2: Director forensic DNA Experts, Doctor Miller, again, thank you for

673
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 2: being with us, Doctor Miller. The odds in this case

674
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 2: that the DNA is incorrect, I mean it's hard for

675
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: a lay person to believe.

676
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: I didn't believe the first.

677
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: Time I used DNA Joksuribo nucleic acid in court, but

678
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 2: I had to check it and it's correct. The odds

679
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: are like one in eight actilion that it could be

680
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: anybody else's DNA, but Cobrews, would you agree with that

681
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: type of statistic? In DNA analysis the way I would

682
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: do them, you end up basically with a number so big,

683
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 2: just like that one that says the DNA came from him.

684
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 5: I mean, it's to.

685
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 8: That point where scientifically, logically, statistically, you've ruled out anything else.

686
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 8: It really unless somebody else's DNA matches him, and somebody

687
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,439
Speaker 8: else's DNA that matched him was left there and implicated him,

688
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 8: and so the chances of that happening are just zero.

689
00:39:59,480 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: Just got more.

690
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: You're joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Scott, Do

691
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 2: you agree with doctor Monte Miller those statistics are real?

692
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean one thousand percent. And I have to

693
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 9: tell you, no, he does not have an expectation of

694
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 9: privacy relative to any of this biological evidence that they

695
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 9: have collected. And they're trying to, you know, essentially recap

696
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 9: the evidence and how was collected and how was utilized

697
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 9: in this particular case. And I think the defense realizes

698
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 9: that this is a real up hill battle when you

699
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 9: begin to consider the numeric values involved in this.

700
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 2: So Phillip debate veteran trial lawyer joining us out of LA.

701
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 2: Bottom line, the DNA is irrefutable one in eight octillion

702
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: that this DNA could have been led by anybody other

703
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 2: than Brian Coburger on a ninth sheath under a dead body.

704
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: So where can they go now with a mental defect client.

705
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: That's what's happening, Philip, Well, first of.

706
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 10: All, in the guilt phase, I think the only thing

707
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 10: that the touch DNA proves is that somebody with his

708
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 10: DNA on a snap left it at the scene. It

709
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 10: does not, in the fact, prove that he committed the

710
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 10: quadruple Hama side. It just puts his touch DNA on

711
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 10: some item that's in the stream of commerce at the scene.

712
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 10: So the question is going to become for the state,

713
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 10: what else do they have to put him at that house?

714
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 10: Slitting all these students' throats.

715
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: We remember American hero police officer Christopher Reese, Virginia, HPD,

716
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 2: shot and killed in the line of duty, passed away

717
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 2: along with partner Officer Cameron Gervin, survived by loving family,

718
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 2: Sentenced to life without him. American hero Officer Christopher Reese.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,