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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt, my name

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Speaker 1: is They called me Ben. We're joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul mission controlled decons. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you, You are here and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. This is this is

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Speaker 1: a special episode for us. No all, it's one that's

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Speaker 1: very close to your heart. We are diving into a

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Speaker 1: genuine mystery today, right, and this is a mystery that

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Speaker 1: may be familiar to some of our listeners in the audience,

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Speaker 1: but for some of this this may be something completely new.

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Speaker 1: Spoiler alert. We're not diving in alone. But before we

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Speaker 1: introduce our guests, no, do you want to give us

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Speaker 1: a little bit of an understanding about this? Oh? Sure,

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Speaker 1: I sure? What had been Thank you for for the opportunity,

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Speaker 1: my friend. Um, yeah, we just wrapped. And when I

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Speaker 1: say we, I mean myself are mystery guests today. It's

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Speaker 1: not really a mystery. It's in the metadata, but we're

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Speaker 1: gonna play at Koy for now. And Lauren Pacheco, who's

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Speaker 1: a colleague of mine, producer from New York who I've

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Speaker 1: worked on a previous show called Happy Face with UM.

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Speaker 1: And this show that we just wrapped us called Murder

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Speaker 1: in Oregon, and it dives into the tragic death of

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Speaker 1: Michael Frankie, who was the director of Oregon's Department of

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Speaker 1: Corrections UM in the late eighties, nineteen eighty nine, about

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Speaker 1: as late in the eighties as you can get. UM.

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Speaker 1: This gentleman was who was a pillar of the community,

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Speaker 1: a very well respected former judge. UM. And it's a

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Speaker 1: very very intelligent and kind man. UM was stabbed to

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Speaker 1: outside of his office. UM. And very quickly there came

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Speaker 1: to be kind of a reckoning where you know, the

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Speaker 1: government needed to pin this on somebody. It wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to go away. And UM unfortunately, as based on our

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Speaker 1: research and the research of our guest today, UM, they

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Speaker 1: pinned it on a patsy, someone who very very clearly

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Speaker 1: didn't do it. But within all of that and that

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Speaker 1: search for the truth is a twisting, turning story the

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Speaker 1: likes of you would which you wouldn't believe something more

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Speaker 1: along the lines of true detective than a nonfiction podcast.

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Speaker 1: But um again, we're not doing this alone. Today. We

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Speaker 1: have Phil Stanford with us, who has been invested in

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Speaker 1: this story for going on thirty years um and has

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Speaker 1: just done a massive amount of research and written columns

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Speaker 1: for The Oregonian on this very subject and has really

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Speaker 1: been himself a huge part of this very story. Phil,

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Speaker 1: welcome to stuff they don't want you to know, sir, Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you for much good to be here. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: I don't even it's such a massive story and we

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Speaker 1: don't want to spoil it for anyone that you know

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Speaker 1: hasn't finished listening to the series yet. But how would you,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of characterize this story of murder and

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Speaker 1: Oregon and the death of Michael Frankie. What what would

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Speaker 1: you say some of the main themes are that we

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, touched on in this very very

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Speaker 1: fascinating series. Well, uh, it comes in several parts. I

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Speaker 1: mean it was first of all, an assassination, which no

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Speaker 1: one wanted to acknowledge. Things like that just don't happen,

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Speaker 1: uh in this country, Uh, let alone, uh little Old Oregon.

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Speaker 1: But this guy, Michael Frankie had come into the state

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Speaker 1: just about a year before he discovered that his department

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Speaker 1: was rife with corruption all the way to the top

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Speaker 1: and he was going to reveal it. Uh, they had

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Speaker 1: him killed. Well, that was the first part of it.

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Speaker 1: The second part was the cover up, a really pervasive

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Speaker 1: her up, because so many individuals and institutions in Salem,

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Speaker 1: even if they weren't involved in the in the murder,

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Speaker 1: had so much to cover up. It goes back to

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Speaker 1: systemic things I think, you know, just the nature of

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Speaker 1: narcotics law enforcement that corrupted the state police for example. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and and the governor too had things to cover up.

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Speaker 1: So an assassination, cover up, selection of a patsy, the

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Speaker 1: manufacture of evidence against a low level tweaker who had

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Speaker 1: nothing at all to do with the crime. And uh,

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Speaker 1: the insistence since then to this very day by the

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Speaker 1: state that he still deserves to be punished, even though

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Speaker 1: a federal judge has ruled that no reasonable juror would

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Speaker 1: vote to convict. Hey, Phil, I really want to know

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Speaker 1: in as much basic detail which sounds like an odd phrase,

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Speaker 1: but basic detail about the corruption that that Michael uncovered.

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Speaker 1: So like, what what were some of the major things

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Speaker 1: that he found out that he felt needed to be

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Speaker 1: told to the public. Okay, Well, first of all, uh,

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Speaker 1: and you'll find this in just about every prison. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The drug trade, protected drug trade. For the drug trade

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Speaker 1: to flourish in or out of the prison, it has

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Speaker 1: to be protected, and it was being protected. In the

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Speaker 1: Oregon State Penitentiary. There were a number of scams that

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Speaker 1: the officials had had run for for years, including hanky

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Speaker 1: panky with animals on the farm, the sale of equipment

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Speaker 1: that belonged to the state, and so forth. Most recently,

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Speaker 1: there had been a warehouse burned down for arson. It

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Speaker 1: was arson for insurance purposes, and he was onto that.

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Speaker 1: We referred to it as the a shed. And we

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Speaker 1: know that he was going to be talking the next day,

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Speaker 1: the morning after he was murder to the legislature about that.

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Speaker 1: We have evidence that he was going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about the aid and and it's just to point out,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is all you know. While this this

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Speaker 1: might sound speculative to some folks that aren't fully familiar

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Speaker 1: with the story, these are all corroborated by multiple sources.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we we absolutely know that this type of

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Speaker 1: corruption is very, very real, and that Michael uncovered it um.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are various theories about who may or

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Speaker 1: may not have killed Michael Frankie, which is a big

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Speaker 1: you know, the central question to murder in Oregon, it's

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Speaker 1: who really killed Michael Frankie. But there is no question

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Speaker 1: that this corruption was rife in the system and that

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Speaker 1: the man that the crime was pinned on almost one

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Speaker 1: thousand percent, did not do it. He was like, there's

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Speaker 1: no question certainly among those who might have listened to

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Speaker 1: the podcast or have been doing their own research, honest research.

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Speaker 1: But there is still a sizeable contingent of a local press,

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Speaker 1: uh and and government that would argue that there was

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Speaker 1: no corruption that they will not accept that. And from

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Speaker 1: the beginning that was the problem. They could not accept

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Speaker 1: the idea that Michael Frankie might have been murdered because

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Speaker 1: he was investigating corruption. I was about ready to blow

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Speaker 1: the whistle on some of his top officials from the

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Speaker 1: beginning they said. The official version was that it was

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Speaker 1: a car burglary that had gone bad. And one thing

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Speaker 1: that's interesting about this, Phil is in in just some

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Speaker 1: preparatory research, I found that you had devoted no less

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Speaker 1: than eighty columns to the murder right when when working

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Speaker 1: with The Oregonian. And I get this sense, and tell

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong here, but I get this sense

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Speaker 1: that for uh, for at least part of the time,

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Speaker 1: you were in in some sense alone, speaking truth to power,

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Speaker 1: bringing up these various things that the authorities apparently wilfully ignored.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever feel like you were in a you know,

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Speaker 1: banging my head against the wall situation or did you

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Speaker 1: feel that the authorities were listening or did you feel

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Speaker 1: that they were actively trying to push this car Burglary narrative? Um?

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Speaker 1: And and do you think that they they genuinely thought

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Speaker 1: it was true or do you think they were, you know,

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Speaker 1: as you had said earlier, noal attempting to just close

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Speaker 1: some case combination. It's hard to read their minds what

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Speaker 1: they're thinking. At first, I was not entirely. I was

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Speaker 1: alone on at my newspaper, The Oregonian, which was the

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Speaker 1: big dog in Oregon at the time. I was writing

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Speaker 1: a column for them. It was a featured columnists. But

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Speaker 1: there were other reporters in Salem, uh, Steve Jackson, Eric

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Speaker 1: Mason on on TV who were following the story too,

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Speaker 1: But I was I was certainly one of the paper,

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Speaker 1: and and because the Oregonian was such a big force

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Speaker 1: in Oregon, I was sort of the appointing man on

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Speaker 1: the thing as far as the authorities were concerned. The governor,

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Speaker 1: after after about six months of my columns, held a

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Speaker 1: press conference and said, where is this garbage coming From

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Speaker 1: another interview, he called it bs He he really what?

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Speaker 1: And I couldn't figure out at the time why he

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Speaker 1: was resisting so strenuously. He'd just come into office and

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Speaker 1: if there was corruption, he could very well blame it

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Speaker 1: on his his predecessor and say let's uh, let's get

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Speaker 1: to the bottom of it. But he didn't. As far

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Speaker 1: as the state cops UH who were conducting the investigation

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Speaker 1: in the d a's office in Marin County, I think

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Speaker 1: from the beginning they knew they had to cover something

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Speaker 1: up once they realized where this thing was going, especially

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Speaker 1: then they they may have been hoping from the beginning

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Speaker 1: that it was a random car burglary, but once they

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Speaker 1: realized the connections which we talked about in murdering Oregon

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Speaker 1: to UH officials and UH who were engaged in in

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Speaker 1: illegal activities, they knew they could not pursue an honest

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Speaker 1: investigation I had to get a patsy. It's it's it's true.

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Speaker 1: And we do discuss all of that, and we kind

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Speaker 1: of leave it up to the listener to sort of

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Speaker 1: make up their minds when we present all of this evidence.

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Speaker 1: And what you realize, if you're paying attention, is that

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't add up. You mentioned the idea of

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Speaker 1: a car burglary gone wrong, and that was sort of

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Speaker 1: the narrative that the state police and the government at

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Speaker 1: large really pushed. This idea that Michael was leaving his

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Speaker 1: office and uh encountered somebody rifling through his car. They

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Speaker 1: used the I love this delightfully regional term jockey boxing,

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Speaker 1: which I've never heard before, but I really liked a

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Speaker 1: lot the idea of rifling through somebody's glove box. And

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Speaker 1: Michael Frankie was a very tall, very fit man, um

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Speaker 1: really imposing, you know stature. I don't know his exact height,

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Speaker 1: but I think he was six ft something and very

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Speaker 1: you know, in shape, and played basketball and you know

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Speaker 1: it was a very active guy. And um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the notion that he came upon somebody rifling through his

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Speaker 1: car who then gave him a single stab kill shot

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Speaker 1: to the heart in addition to like a defensive wound,

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Speaker 1: it's very hard to believe. And even in court, like

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Speaker 1: when they tried to set up the scenario of you know,

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Speaker 1: the angles and all of that of where how he

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Speaker 1: would have had to be stabbed, you know, if the

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Speaker 1: guy was sitting in the car, you know, the angles

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Speaker 1: didn't add up. And can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that, about how some of those narratives that were

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Speaker 1: pushed even in the trial just didn't really make sense. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, nothing about the case made much sense. That's

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Speaker 1: that's the thing there. There there was no physical evidence

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Speaker 1: to start with connecting Frank Gable, that's the guy they

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Speaker 1: eventually indicted for the crime. There was no no evidence

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Speaker 1: that Frank Gable was there, I mean no physical evidence.

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Speaker 1: All they really had was, when they came down to it,

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Speaker 1: was manufactured evidence of a bunch of jail birds and

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Speaker 1: ex cons who had potential sentences hanging over their heads,

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Speaker 1: so you know, a serious time for federal gun charges

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Speaker 1: and federal drug charges got them to make up stories

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Speaker 1: and in the end they got a couple of young hoods,

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Speaker 1: uh seventeen year old runaway girl and then a tough

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Speaker 1: guy named Shorty Hardened to say that they had been

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Speaker 1: there and had seen it happen. Jody Swearings in the

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Speaker 1: seventeen year Old Girl event ran away before a trial

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Speaker 1: could be held and said this police, I had her

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Speaker 1: make it up, make the story up shortly Hardened. The

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Speaker 1: other supposed eyewitness did testify, but his testimony contradicted other tests.

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Speaker 1: Simony on there had been a janitor who had come

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Speaker 1: out and seen something happened in front of the the

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Speaker 1: office building, the dome buildings it's called had no reason

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Speaker 1: to lie, and Shorty Harden's testimony completely contradicted what the

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Speaker 1: janitor had said. So there were not only contradictions like that,

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Speaker 1: but Frank Gables lawyer was so bad he didn't even

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Speaker 1: bother or maybe even think to bring it up with

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Speaker 1: the trial. It was it was for us. It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's he was so bad to the point

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Speaker 1: where you have to think there was some intention behind it.

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Speaker 1: And again that's not something anyone has, you know, actual

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Speaker 1: proof of, but it just makes it just makes no sense.

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Speaker 1: He shouldn't have gotten the case. We talked about that

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Speaker 1: in the show where you know there was an investigator

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Speaker 1: we talked to who I believe was the investigator for

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Speaker 1: Frank's defense. Um who just didn't feel like this lawyer,

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Speaker 1: Bob abel Um was the last person that would have

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Speaker 1: gotten this trot this this case, and that he didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a phone, he didn't have an office of

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Speaker 1: his own, he kind of shared a space with He

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Speaker 1: was very much like almost a Saul Goodman type figure,

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Speaker 1: you know, early in his career. And all the judges

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Speaker 1: and lawyers, i mean, remember Salem is a fairly small town,

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Speaker 1: knew who he was. They knew he was incompetent, and

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Speaker 1: they knew he was a heavy drinker, to say the least.

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Speaker 1: So he was given this case. His business was going

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Speaker 1: down the tubes at the time, and he got the case.

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Speaker 1: He was just way over his head, even if he

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Speaker 1: hadn't been drinking. Uh. Shortly before the trial, the team

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Speaker 1: of investigators, i mean a tremendous amount of money was

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Speaker 1: paid by the state for the defense on this thing.

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Speaker 1: For the lawyers and and and the investigators. The investigators

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Speaker 1: wrote a letter to the judge saying, we're not prepared

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Speaker 1: to go to trial. Our our lawyers don't understand the case.

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Speaker 1: And the judges blew it off and and the trial

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Speaker 1: went forward. But my own opinion that Able I didn't

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Speaker 1: have to tell Able to throw it he but he

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Speaker 1: knew what he had to do. So this gentleman, Frank Gable,

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Speaker 1: he has been in prison since nineteen whatever when the

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Speaker 1: trial was uh. They arrested him in ninety and just

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Speaker 1: earlier this year in April, a federal judge ordered his release.

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Speaker 1: That's correct, I mean, so he did almost thirty years,

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Speaker 1: thirty years for a crime he had absolutely nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with. The judge rule that no reasonable juror would

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Speaker 1: vote to convict on the basis of evidence that was

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Speaker 1: available then, and and the new evidence in including the

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Speaker 1: recantation of all the so called material witnesses against him,

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Speaker 1: leaving absolutely nothing left of the case, right, and and

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Speaker 1: then like the notion that they would retry him is

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Speaker 1: really almost comical, right, because they don't really have they

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Speaker 1: would have nothing to uh to try him on. Yet

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Speaker 1: the State of Oregon is appealing the judge's decision. Judges

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Speaker 1: ruling on technical grounds, in effect trying to put him

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Speaker 1: back in prison for something they know he didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: It's a fairly evil political stance to take. And furthermore,

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Speaker 1: phil from what I understand, the Oregon d o J

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Speaker 1: also wanted to keep Gable in prison while that appeal

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Speaker 1: was being hashed out. Is that correct? Yes, they went

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Speaker 1: to the federal judge and after his ruling and said

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Speaker 1: that he's a dangerous the community, he must be kept

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Speaker 1: in and the judge by by this time, I mean

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Speaker 1: it had taken him two years to rule. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we were all very nervous. We didn't know what was

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Speaker 1: going to happen because this was a highly from the

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Speaker 1: beginning has been a highly political case. Uh and and

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Speaker 1: you know with all all the Democratic establishment in Oregon,

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Speaker 1: which you know, this is a one party state behind

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Speaker 1: the cover up over the decades, And we didn't know

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Speaker 1: what was going to happen. So he kept it two years.

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Speaker 1: He really understood the case thanks to a brilliant habeas

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Speaker 1: corpus petition that written by the federal public defender Neil

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Speaker 1: Brown and and and so when the state asked for that,

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Speaker 1: he just said, nope, he's out. Let's let's get on

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Speaker 1: with the appeal. It's worth pointing out that the a

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Speaker 1: g Attorney General for for Oregon, Ellen Rosenbloom, is a

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Speaker 1: protege of Neil Goldschmidt, who was the governor at the

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Speaker 1: time of the Frankie murder and who was instrumental in

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Speaker 1: the instrumental force behind the cover up. Wow, the whole

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Speaker 1: story with Goldschmidth is its own thing and almost deserves

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Speaker 1: its own podcast because he was, you know, found out too.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, like I hate, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm spoiling anything. But honestly, you can't really

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Speaker 1: spoil this story because what we do is this more

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Speaker 1: of like it really takes you inside all of the

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Speaker 1: ins and outs of every character involved in this whole

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Speaker 1: situation and lets the listener kind of make up their

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Speaker 1: own mind as to what they believe. But the idea

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Speaker 1: of gold Schmidt. There's an episode that we devote to

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Speaker 1: gold Schmidt where he essentially was found known. He absolutely

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Speaker 1: was found out to have been um a pedophile child

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Speaker 1: rapist is the term that we use um because he

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Speaker 1: was carrying on a relationship with a thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: girl or I believe what how old was she felt?

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Speaker 1: Was it fourteen when it started? And it was. It's

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Speaker 1: so heartbreaking because she was the daughter of two of

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Speaker 1: gold Schmidt's most fervent supporters who were like, you know,

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Speaker 1: stumping for or campaigning for him, going door to door,

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Speaker 1: and they were really you know, they worshiped the guy,

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Speaker 1: and they knew about the the affair quote unquote, the

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Speaker 1: the you know, the completely inappropriate relationship, and they borderline

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Speaker 1: encouraged it. And we got all of this for him.

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Speaker 1: One of your colleagues at the time, uh, Phil, Margie Boulet,

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Speaker 1: who wrote this incredible expose about this relationship where she,

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Speaker 1: you know, was trusted by this young woman when she

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Speaker 1: was you know, much older, and this relationship had literally

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Speaker 1: wrecked her life. I mean she became, you know, an

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Speaker 1: alcoholic and outcast. Um she you know, he sent her

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Speaker 1: away and paid her off and all of this really

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking stuff and then she and you know, ultimately passed away.

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Speaker 1: But to hear Margie talk about this stuff and to

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Speaker 1: know what gold Schmidt was capable of and that this

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Speaker 1: was something he was trying to keep buried for years,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't make the one to one connection

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Speaker 1: that this is why they didn't want, you know, they

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Speaker 1: didn't want um Frankie digging around. But there's sure are

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Speaker 1: a lot of characters in this story that had a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff to hide, including the governor of the state.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I don't think uh could be proved wrong.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that gold Schmidt had anything to do

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Speaker 1: with the murder as elf, but he certainly didn't want

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Speaker 1: a thorough going investigation of the murder at which would

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Speaker 1: have led to corruption, which would have led to ripping

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Speaker 1: backs that covers on everything in Salem, because at that

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Speaker 1: time he was negotiating with the girl and her lawyers

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Speaker 1: for the hush money payment. He eventually paid her over

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Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars as long as she kept her

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Speaker 1: mass will pause here for a brief word from our sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and we're back. Okay, So phil Aton met something I've

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Speaker 1: I grew up in Georgia. I've lived here my entire life,

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Speaker 1: done a little bit of traveling, but I've never been

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Speaker 1: to Oregon. I have a picture of this state in

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Speaker 1: my mind from popular culture, Um, you know Portlandia, of course,

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Speaker 1: speaking particularly of Portland. Um, also just of kind of

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Speaker 1: marijuana cole sure of Um. I have a picture of

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Speaker 1: it in my mind a little bit that is very

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Speaker 1: much of popular culture, like a liberal bastion, kind of

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Speaker 1: like on the hill. And that's just the way. I'm

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Speaker 1: very progressive right, that's the way I think about in

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Speaker 1: my mind because that's what's been highlighted. Right. So can

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Speaker 1: you paint a little bit of a picture of what

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Speaker 1: what Oregon, what Salem is like in the eighties? What

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Speaker 1: what does it feel like? Talk to me about I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about the corruption that we know of, but

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Speaker 1: what is the place actually like and what's going on there? Well?

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Speaker 1: Uh I wrote a column for The Oregonian for for

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Speaker 1: a while, and that's how I'm usually identified, uh in

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Speaker 1: in this this context. But since then, I've written several

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Speaker 1: books about corruption in Oregon. And the first one, which

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Speaker 1: I wrote about about twenty years ago, I guess called

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Speaker 1: Portland's Confidential, Oh, which, by the way, everybody won the

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Speaker 1: Independent Publisher's Best True Crime Award of two thousand five. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was. It was very successful. It was

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Speaker 1: a regional bestseller, and and The Oregonian would not write

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Speaker 1: about it. It was it was actually pretty funny. I

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Speaker 1: knew they weren't going to review it. The book review

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Speaker 1: editor told me that he had been ordered not to

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Speaker 1: review it. But they at that time they were printing

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Speaker 1: at once a week. They would print the best sellers

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Speaker 1: in the Northwest. He couldn't keep keep Portland's Confidential out

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Speaker 1: because it was number one for several weeks. And so

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Speaker 1: that first book was about a big vice scandal in Portland.

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Speaker 1: At one time, back in the early fifties, Portland's was

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Speaker 1: notorious throughout the nation. You know, they were Life magazine

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Speaker 1: features on how corrupt it was, and there had been

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Speaker 1: a big vice scandal. A lot of it had to

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Speaker 1: do with national politics and with the teamsters trying to

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Speaker 1: move in and the local mob trying to protect itself.

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Speaker 1: You're Going In won a Pulitzer Prize at the time

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Speaker 1: for telling half the story about how the teamsters were

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Speaker 1: coming in, but they didn't record acknowledge that the town

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Speaker 1: had been set up for for decades, well back into

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, by local mobs. And it ended in

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Speaker 1: Senate hearings. I mean, it was that big a deal

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty seven, and everyone came back and tried

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Speaker 1: to forget about it. So by when I wrote that book,

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Speaker 1: it had really been a secret, not to be talked about,

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Speaker 1: and and everyone liked to imagine that Oregon was this

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Speaker 1: pristine state. I think that that's sort of a carryover

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Speaker 1: from the time when people were coming west anyway, and

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Speaker 1: I thought they could leave the evils of civilization behind.

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Speaker 1: So at least here the impression that Oregon was somehow

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Speaker 1: an exception to the general rules of humanity was fostered.

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Speaker 1: And so when I wrote this, uh, Portland Confidential, it

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Speaker 1: was one of the reasons it was successful is that

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Speaker 1: it was it was just a real breakthrough, you know,

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Speaker 1: people starting to realize except the fact that there was

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Speaker 1: a real tradition of corruption here as there is in

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Speaker 1: most places. I think that you can find this in

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Speaker 1: just about any American city. And one thing, one thing

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Speaker 1: I like about that that understanding of corruption and it's ubiquity,

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Speaker 1: is that despite the image a lot of people outside

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Speaker 1: of Oregon or outside of the Northwest have about the

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Speaker 1: region and the place, despite that image, many of those

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Speaker 1: same rules and I like that you call them rules

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Speaker 1: fille still apply. Uh. Many people don't know that Oregon

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Speaker 1: as a state was initially founded as a yeah, as

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Speaker 1: a racially motivated separatist society. Now, of course that's that.

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Speaker 1: It's just another example of how many skeletons we can

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Speaker 1: find when we dig into these closets. But I'd like

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Speaker 1: to change gears here just a bit and ask ask

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Speaker 1: a personal question of you. I've I've worked with many

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Speaker 1: UH investigative journalists on various projects before, and one thing

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Speaker 1: that I always find profoundly impressive and moving is the

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Speaker 1: drive and the tenacity. And I think for many of

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Speaker 1: our UM journalism students or journalists in the audience today,

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Speaker 1: that's something that they would like like to hear your

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Speaker 1: take on and hear you talk about. Could you tell

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Speaker 1: us what keeps you going on on a case like this,

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Speaker 1: because this has been a hard road and uh twisting tail, Like,

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Speaker 1: are there ever moments where there's a dark night of

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Speaker 1: the soul where you think maybe I should let this go?

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Speaker 1: Or do you double up? I mean, where does the

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Speaker 1: energy and the power and the drive come from to

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Speaker 1: stay with these kind of cases. It's always sort of

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Speaker 1: a complicated thing, you know. From the beginning I got

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Speaker 1: started on it, I was writing a column. I was interested,

430
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: it was obviously an interesting story. And then then there

431
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: are inconsistencies. I I certainly didn't know the answers, uh,

432
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: but but I I knew there were a lot of questions,

433
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: and so I started raising them. And then once I

434
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: started getting all this pushback, it became a little bit

435
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: of a matter of pride, I suppose. And of course,

436
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, we haven't talked about the brothers of the

437
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: murdered man, uh, Kevin and Pat Frankie, who from the

438
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: beginning raised questions about it, and once they realized that

439
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: Gabel was a Patsy, defended him, I mean, And so

440
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: I took there their part in it from the beginning,

441
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: partly because it was made it easier for me to

442
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: tell the story through Kevin's eyes, but also because they

443
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: were they were raising good questions, and so you know,

444
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: I got I got more and more involved in the

445
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: story over the years, and I would say, Okay, I'm

446
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 1: going to write a book about it now, and then

447
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: I say, no, I don't have enough, and I'd go

448
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: off and write a book about something else. Then I'd

449
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: come back to it and I said, okay, I'm gonna

450
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: do it now. Finally, you know, over the years, Kevin

451
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: was doing more research himself, investigation, and I was we

452
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: found it, you know, started understanding the case more. I mean.

453
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: It was very difficult because the official investigation was a

454
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: cover up. And finally there's brilliant habeas corpus petition by

455
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: the public defender. Uh. They She and her team spent

456
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: several years going into this in depth that confirmed so

457
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 1: much of what we talked about and and elucidated all

458
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: the rest of it. Finally, after all these years, finally

459
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: understood it well enough to to make the case that

460
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: we make in Murder and Oregon. But why, I guess

461
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: your your question, why why do you? Why do you

462
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: keep doing it? It's it's it's for a combination of motives,

463
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: and some of them very personal and and and some

464
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: of them probably a little selfish at the beginning, but

465
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: in this case anyway, deeply invested in it finally because

466
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: just the the injustice of it on so many levels.

467
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 1: And I've got to say also, because I'm very interested

468
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: in these stories I spend my I've discovered that I

469
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: really enjoy putting together cases like this and understanding how

470
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: they really work. So that's part of it too. It's

471
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: really interesting to fill spending time with you and Kevin

472
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: U through the production of the show and kind of

473
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: seeing the way you you guys basically became you had

474
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: each other's backs in such a real way. And when

475
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: you and Kevin sort of met back when this was

476
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: was happening. Um, you really forged a friendship. It was

477
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: like a part ship where you were almost kind of

478
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: a duo of kind of makes detectives, I guess for

479
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: for lack of a better term. That's why I kind

480
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: of compare this to the whole True Detective story of

481
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: the first season, where it really is you know, YouTube

482
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: against kind of the world, trying to you know, push

483
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: for the truth against all odds. And Kevin even was

484
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: targeted by the police. I mean there were times where

485
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: he was harassed and his tires were slashed and there

486
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: were notes on his car saying go home. He had

487
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: guns pointed at it, right, and they tried to get

488
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: him killed. Yeah, And he uprooted his life from Florida,

489
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: where he had a successful construction business and moved to

490
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: Oregon and really embedded himself in this kind of underbelly

491
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: where he you know, almost became like that hard boiled

492
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: kind of dashiel Ham detective, going to all the sleazy

493
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: dives and really becoming you know, making his own informants

494
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: and you know, and and doing all the things that

495
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: the police clearly weren't going to do because it wasn't

496
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: and their interest to actually you know point the fingers

497
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: at the right people. Um, and I think that's really fascinating.

498
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: And to spend time with you guys, I realized that

499
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: both of you are almost more comfortable in the presence

500
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: of of of folks that maybe skirt the law in

501
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: a little. And you introduced me to a friend of yours,

502
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: for example, who was like he was a pilot. Who

503
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: tell me about your your your friend who you introduced

504
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: me to if you without naming names, but like these

505
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: the pilot story is another one. I at one point

506
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,239
Speaker 1: I was working as a legitimate journalist in Washington, did

507
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: you see. I dropped out and went back, went down

508
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: to Miami, dropped out again from a newspaper and ended

509
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: up working for investigative agents, private investigator who was doing

510
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: business for one of the biggest drug smugglers in the

511
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: Western hemisphere. And and I got caught up in that.

512
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: But I think the guy you're talking about in Salem

513
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: was my friend Roger came down when we're doing interviews

514
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: h in Salem, and he had spent a lot of

515
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: time in some of the best prisons around the country,

516
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: h for a number of crimes. Very intelligent guys sort

517
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: of uh and and and a great storyteller. I do

518
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with with people who have gone through stuff

519
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: like that. It's it's listening to war stories and and

520
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, the drug drug drug wars were wars. I

521
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: mean I I give people the same sort of license

522
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: I would I would give someone who had been overseas

523
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: more with Phil Stanford. After we take a quick sponsor

524
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: break and we're back, let's dive in. Hey, Phil, I

525
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question about your opinion. Please

526
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: feel free to skip this if you'd like to. But

527
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: just as someone you you currently still live in order, correct, right, So,

528
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: as someone who lives in Oregon, Um, how do you

529
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: feel about the culture the that's happening right now the

530
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: legalization of marijuana? Like how how how do you feel

531
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: about all of that growing up, you know, covering crime

532
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: in the drug trade over all these years, the uh,

533
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: the legalization has made very little difference in in my

534
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: life or the life of people around me. Most of

535
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: the people I know have have smoked dope most of

536
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: their lives. The biggest difference legalization has made in Oregon

537
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: is that has put some people out of business who

538
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: are operating illegally. You know, their prices the prices dropped

539
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: as we would PreTect and and um so let's put

540
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: some some friends out of out of business. But right

541
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: now I'm living out on the coast, Oregon coast, in

542
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: little town and gotten to know the a little bit

543
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: about the history that here, everyone here, uh was raising dope.

544
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: Everyone knew. This a little town, everyone knows who the dope,

545
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,479
Speaker 1: who's selling dope. Had to be protected by the local police,

546
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: and they were. I guess I'm getting a little bit

547
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: off the question of what legalization has meant, but it's

548
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: actually meant very little. Why I I think I think

549
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: you make an interesting point though you talk about police

550
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: protection of of say, marijuana dealers, but what in Murdering Oregon,

551
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: we're talking a lot about police protection of methamphetamine dealers

552
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: and much more sinister drugs and things that really ruined

553
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: people's lives. That's the thing that why I said, none

554
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: of this is spoilers about murder and Oregon, because it

555
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: really is about the experience of meeting all of these characters,

556
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,959
Speaker 1: and we have firsthand accounts from people that you know,

557
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: really had their lives ruined by a lot of the players,

558
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: the higher level players in the story. But you know,

559
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: meth in Oregon is a rampant problem, and that's the

560
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: kind of drugs that were being smuggled into the prisons

561
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: with police protection. UH. And that's a big part of

562
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: our story. So, I mean, do you differentiate between the two.

563
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: I know you're talking about you know, people that are

564
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: in the drug wars. You you respect them in their stripes, etcetera.

565
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: But you know, I do feel like there's a difference

566
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: between you know, smuggling marijuana and smuggling heroin and meth

567
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: amphetamine and things that you know, tear families apart and

568
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: ruined lives. Sure, there's a difference between between them. I um,

569
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: but they all get involved in the same trade. I mean,

570
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: the people who were protecting the officials who are expecting marijuana,

571
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: we're protecting heroin, We're protecting meth The big deal in

572
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: in UH Oregon prisons now as they've declared cigarettes out

573
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: of bound so uh cigarettes sell for more than marijuana

574
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: and uh and and so there's there's a lively trade

575
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: UH of of cigarettes smuggling UH run by the guards.

576
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: The guards are allowed to bring cigarettes into the US.

577
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: Where do you think they go? So it's um, drugs

578
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: are drugs as far as I am concerned. I mean,

579
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: I certainly recognized that some are more dangerous than others.

580
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: I would certainly say that hard liquor is more dangerous

581
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: than marijuana. But yeah, and has probably ruined more lives

582
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: than heroin and is probably doing more doing more damage

583
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: as we record this episode. Yeah, I do think your

584
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: agnostic approach to like you you're looking at you have

585
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: a problem with injustice. You don't make judgments necessarily, but

586
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: what you what really gets under your skin is people

587
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: who are liars and who are covering up the truth.

588
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: And you have this thirst for and that's what drives you.

589
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: I think, in my opinion to Ben's previous question, is

590
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: you cannot abide by people getting away with, you know,

591
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: throwing others under the bus, who didn't deserve it, who

592
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: didn't actually have any steak in the game, and who

593
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: you were just used as kind of ponds and these

594
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: other more powerful people's kind of master plan for lack

595
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: of a better term. Would you agree with that or

596
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts about Yeah? I think I would

597
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah. Uh. Another question, we're talking a lot

598
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: about police corruption, which is an open secret, especially in

599
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: various smaller communities throughout the United States, do you, in

600
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: your experience, UH, in the various regions of work, do

601
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: you find that Oregon has it feels so cynical to

602
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: ask it this way, do you find that it has

603
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: an extraordinarily high amount of law enforcement corruption or a

604
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: normal amount whatever that is? Uh? And I guess the

605
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: question is is Oregon exceptional in the degree of corruption,

606
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: whether through UH smuggling or protected rackets or is this

607
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: just sort of the the lay of the land that

608
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: we don't typically talk about in mainstream media. I think

609
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: that's exactly what it is. And it's not just that

610
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: we don't talk about it and it's not really recognized.

611
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: People can't really afford to recognize this. But I think

612
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: it is. Of course, the levels of corruption depends on

613
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: the place and on the time, and vary from time

614
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: to time, but in every place, but um, yeah, I've

615
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: lived a number of different places, and I worked as

616
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 1: a private investigator in Miami, in d C. And UH

617
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 1: in Portland. I've worked, you know, UH as a writer

618
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: in in those places and lived a lot of places.

619
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 1: I think that corruption is certainly part of our our

620
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: our political economy. There's a really good book on it.

621
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: It's by a sociologist, William Chambliss called On the Take.

622
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: He wrote it back in the I think the seventies

623
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: or eighties. You can, uh, it's worth getting. But he

624
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: talks about crime as a system that involves politicians, law

625
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: enforcement people, and of course he says not always most

626
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: importantly the racketeers. It's certainly true. In fact, he was

627
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: sort of the inspiration for me getting started writing about corruption.

628
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: I've been pushed out at the Oregonian and uh doing

629
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: this and that. It was in Powell's Bookstore, which is

630
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 1: a great bookstore there, and looking at the section and

631
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: and there was this book I hadn't heard of before,

632
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: called On the Take by William Chambler. So I got it.

633
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: And he talks about Seattle in the seventies. He was

634
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: doing his doctoral thesis there and he basically penetrated the

635
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: Seattle underworld where you know, and at the time in Seattle,

636
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: everyone was telling him, oh, this is a squeaky clean town. No,

637
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: he got out there and he started talking to these people,

638
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: worked his way up the chain, and he wrote the

639
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: thesis about it, and it's really terrific. And I said, well,

640
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: maybe that will explain some things in Portland. So I

641
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: started researching those things that uh sort of the lower

642
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: level people involved in in in the vice activities, and

643
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: UH made friends, got to got to know these people

644
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: who was a lot of them were dead by that time.

645
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: Because this was about Portlands in the fifties. It was

646
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 1: the old vice scandal turned into Portland Confidential, the vice

647
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: scandal that everyone pretended never happened and was able to

648
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: reconstruct that. But it is a system and and and

649
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: if you look at Portland's history, for example, the first

650
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: Marshal was the saloon keeper. He was a gun slinger

651
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: from California. A saloon back then was booze gambling. And

652
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: upstairs the girls six of the nine councilmen early on

653
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: in poor Land, we're saloon keepers. Come on. And Portland

654
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: considered itself an exception to the rule. I mean, it's

655
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: because they were they had their blinders on. But yeah,

656
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: you look at New York, Chicago, Providence, Rhode Island, Miami,

657
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: San Francisco, Los Angeles, I mean, and then the small

658
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: towns of the same way, same way. So I'd also

659
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: like to ask you if you have any advice to

660
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: our our budding investigative journalists in the audience today, because

661
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: I know my spider sense tells me at least that

662
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are who are hearing this,

663
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: even if they haven't tuned into the podcast Murder and

664
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: Oregon yet, are are also identifying on some level with

665
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: some of the personal and professional struggles you have to

666
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: face when you're you know, when you're in what can

667
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: you feel like a Dave adversus Goliath situation? Do you

668
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: have advice to UH to journalists who are are digging

669
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: into a story or people who would want to pursue

670
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: investigative journalism. Sure, um, I don't know what I would

671
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: do now. When I got into it, it was it

672
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 1: was easier to sort of slip through the front door

673
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: and get a job. These days, it seems you have

674
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: to be so credential to UH TO to to get

675
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: in and by that time you're you're pretty well conditioned

676
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: not to ask a lot of the questions that a

677
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: good investigative journalist would ask. A lot of what passes

678
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 1: for investigative journalism at the local and the national level

679
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: is just people being fed leaks to really go against

680
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: conventional wisdom, which is what we're talking about here. Is

681
00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: A is a very difficult proposition in the media, especially now,

682
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: and the best investigative journalists in this country, in this

683
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: country seemour Hirsch can't publish in this country anymore. That

684
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: will give you some idea of his problems. So, I mean,

685
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: there are people out there who are getting away with

686
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: good stuff. Matt Tybee is good, Glenn Greenwald is good,

687
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: and there there are a few more. But you've got

688
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: to find an organization that will support you. I I

689
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time in UH sort of

690
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: devising getting my stuff out by devising strategies. When I

691
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: was writing the column, I would always pretend to be

692
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: a little bit more conservative than I was, use the

693
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: conservative argument to UH support a radical position. I mean

694
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of mental judo that goes on

695
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: in anyway, and you have to learn how to do that.

696
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: But I'm not terribly sanguine about the possibilities for UH

697
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,479
Speaker 1: doing an investigative work on on the in the mass

698
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: media right now. You know, Phil I I agree with

699
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: all of that UM completely in terms of print journalism

700
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: and more traditional media outlets. But I will say that

701
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, some of those UH, those organizations that are

702
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: more traditional are not the only game in town anymore.

703
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: They're no longer the only arbiters of you know, distribution

704
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: of information. And even with Murder in Oregon, while maybe

705
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: we couldn't have gotten The Oregonian to print a story

706
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: like that, obviously, uh, we were able to do it

707
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: as a podcast and and and the only arbiters of

708
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: that information were you know, you and myself and and

709
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: Lauren Pacheco, the producer, and of course you know, we've

710
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: added things with legal to make sure we didn't get sued.

711
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: But you know, with podcasting, I think, you know, young

712
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: people have the opportunity if they really see something they

713
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: want to uncover, like our friend Payne Lindsay for example,

714
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: and Up and Vanished, he did an investigative deep dive

715
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: into a cold case that ultimately lead to it being solved.

716
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 1: So I think podcasting is kind of taking that place

717
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: and sort of democratizing the ability of new voices to

718
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: kind of really push things forward, um in a way

719
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: that maybe you know, print journalism wouldn't allow, like for example,

720
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: Leaven that Marguie Boulet story we talked about in the

721
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: show Murder and Oregon that exposed Neil Goldschmidt's um crimes

722
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: uh and and horrific acts. They wouldn't publish it. The

723
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: Oregonian wouldn't publish it until this woman had died. I mean,

724
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: it's right. I obviously left off stopped short of of

725
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: of social media and podcasts, but um yeah, this this

726
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: would never have come out in the print media. And

727
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: uh and and and and and we did it as

728
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: a podcast and it's very solid. Um uh. It's amusing

729
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: to note that The Oregonian has not taken note even

730
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: of the podcast successful as it has been. Didn't you

731
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: guys slipping ad in there? We sure did we? Uh yeah.

732
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: And just to point this out to like maybe we

733
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: were burying the lead here, Phil wrote for The Oregonian

734
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: for many years and was basically pushed out. And it

735
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: became pretty clear that the Oregonian had a political act

736
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: to grind in this whole thing, that they were kind

737
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: of in the gold Schmidt camp. And even when it

738
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: was revealed in a press conference, because you know, many

739
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: many years later, after statuted limitations on rape had passed,

740
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 1: gold Schmidt was exposed for having had this relationship. He

741
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 1: did this this press conference where the Oregonians sent all

742
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: of their kind of you know, company company guys um

743
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 1: who basically buried the lead. And I think they used

744
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: the headline they called it had an affair with an

745
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: underaged girl as opposed to yeah, which obviously that's absurd.

746
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: It is it is rape, you know, it's it's statutory

747
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: or otherwise having there's no such thing as having an

748
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: affair with an underaged girl. That's an absolute misnomer. And

749
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: it just goes to show they really did stand firm

750
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: in that gold Schmidt camp. And that was a big

751
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: part of why you guys but it had so much

752
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: is because you wouldn't tell that company line, right, Oh yeah, yeah.

753
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 1: The the editor I find that who finally pushed me out, uh,

754
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: was a celebrity sucker and and and and she came

755
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: to town her her biggest u aim obviously, was to

756
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: become good friends with gold Schmidt and his wife. They

757
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,439
Speaker 1: are to this day. So I have a question here,

758
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: Phil that I definitely wanted to get to before we

759
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 1: close our show, and it's it's again it's another personal question,

760
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: but I know it's something a lot of us are

761
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: thinking while we're listening. Clearly, were you know, clearly were

762
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: persecuted by the oregony. And that's that's just a demonstrable fact.

763
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: Did you ever feel that your life or have you

764
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: ever felt at any point in this investigation that your

765
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: life was in danger or that you know, somebody might

766
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: as stereotypical as it sounds, send some goons your way,

767
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: or practice some sort of intimidation tactic. Well, actually, a

768
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: judge who conducted a an investigation in the Frankie case

769
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: at that time called me at one point and said,

770
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: we received a threat, an anonymous threat against your life.

771
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: And I said, well, who's it from? And he said,

772
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: I said anonymous? Uh. I said, well, wh I did

773
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 1: tell me? He said, well, I that's what I had

774
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: to do. And I said, thank you very much. But

775
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: it's nothing that you could think too much about. In fact,

776
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: I I never had, hardly ever had a firsthand information

777
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: that would have made me dangerous to people. I was

778
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 1: just a journalist. Kevin was the one who was uh

779
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: most in danger because he was the one who was

780
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: really driving the moral force behind the resistance on on

781
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: this thing, the brother of the murdered man trying to

782
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: get get answers to his brother's murder. But you know,

783
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: I've received threats now and again. Uh, and uh, you

784
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: know it's I guess the best advice I ever got

785
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: on those is that from Bob Adams, who was head

786
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: of the detective agency I worked for in Miami. I

787
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: got a threat back then. I went in and said

788
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: Bob um and told him about it, and he said, oh,

789
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: don't worry about the ones you hear. O. Yeah, I

790
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: know that's I can see that. Well, so then what

791
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: does your home security situation look like? Phil Oh? I

792
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: I used to have alarms. I'm living on the coast.

793
00:48:53,880 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: Now if they want to get me, no, I'm I'm uh,

794
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's out together. Well. Uh, that is,

795
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: first off, obviously fantastic to hear, because I think, you know,

796
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: sometimes people are pre frightened or pre intimidated to dive

797
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: into stories like that because they they have they have

798
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: a fear that outweighs their tenacity. And folks listening, we

799
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: hope you understand. This is just a taste of the

800
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: show Murder and Oregon, which I believe is available in

801
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: its entirety and that can benge the entire twelve episode

802
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: series on Apple Podcasts or the I Heart Radio app

803
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 1: or wherever you get podcasts, uh, and you know it's

804
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: just just to to to that point you made Ben.

805
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: It's funny with Phil and I also work together. We

806
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: met working on Happy Faith. Whire's another series you can

807
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: binge in its entirety about the daughter of a Pacific

808
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: Northwest long haul truck driver UH and serial killer and

809
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: rapists by the name of Hunter jesperson who fill Um

810
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: reported on, and actually he reached out to Phil's newspaper

811
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: and then Phil coined the name Happy Face Killer, and

812
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: that's where we met Um and found out about this

813
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: story about Michael Frankie. But I had a very distinct

814
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: feeling late in the game and production on Happy Face

815
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,720
Speaker 1: about you know, Keith Jess person is alive and in prison,

816
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: and we all know the kind of cult of personality

817
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: that serial killers are and the kind of potential followers

818
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: they attract. It occurred to me in production, my name's

819
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: all over this thing. Am I gonna start getting threats?

820
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: You know, if people are gonna come like stalk me

821
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: and my family at my house. And I had that momentary,

822
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: you know, fear, and then just kind of push it

823
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: away and realized, like, no, we're doing interesting work. You

824
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: have to kind of be a little bit. I'm not

825
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: saying I'm fearless, but you do have to kind of

826
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: throw caution to the winds sometimes and and really dive

827
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: in with this stuff. And I know all three of

828
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: us here have we've worked on shows like that and

829
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: just this show in general. We talk about things that

830
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: could potentially make us targets for crazed individuals of some

831
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,439
Speaker 1: striper and others. So, UM, we're with you there, Phil,

832
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: and you definitely have to kind of shove that stuff

833
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: into the back of your mind and just keep pushing forward. Um. Yeah,

834
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: I didn't have anything intelligence to say well that. Uh,

835
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: you have uh many many brilliant works out there for

836
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: people who would like to learn more about Phil Stanford's

837
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: work and his research. Again, we recommend Portland's Confidential. Uh.

838
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: There's also White House, Call Girl. Uh. There's also a

839
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: collection columns from The Oregonian called do You Know how

840
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: Much a Light Year? Is? And Phil I was surprised

841
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: to note that there's also uh graphic novel City of Roses. Yeah, yeah,

842
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: that was fun did it with dark Horse Comics, great

843
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: artists and uh it's the story of corruption and uh

844
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 1: in Portland in the seventies when the nark Addis cops

845
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: were uh going wild. Uh uh. I later I did

846
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: the graphic novel while I was getting up the uh

847
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: steam to write the book, which had to be documented

848
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: a good deal more and it was very difficult to

849
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: do because no one wanted to talk. And that book

850
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: is called Rose City Vice. It's dirty cops and dirty

851
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: robbers Portland in the seventies. I am going to get

852
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: that graphic novel as soon as we finish this episode,

853
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: which is which is ending right now. That's right. Uh

854
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: So the award winning author investigative journalists, the mind behind

855
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: our podcast Murder in Oregon, Phil Stanford, Phil, thank you

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00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 1: so much for your time. Uh and Phil, where can people?

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00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: Where can people go to learn more about your work

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00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: or to find some of your publications? Okay, well, Amazon

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00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,760
Speaker 1: is the easiest way to do it. All the books

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00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: are available on Amazon as far as I know, and

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00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: um Wikipedia, Yeah, and don't forget you can check out

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00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: Murdering Oregon and its entirety available now wherever you get podcasts.

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00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: And also Happy Face where Phil is featured pretty regularly

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00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: on that one. But but Murdering Oregan really is Phil's

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00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 1: kind of brain child, and it's been a pleasure working

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00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: with you, and I do believe we've got some exciting

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00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 1: things up our sleeves for the future. Phil. But thanks

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Speaker 1: a million for coming on Stuff they Don't Want You

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00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: to Know, my friend, Okay, it's been great, Thanks very much.

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00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: And you can also find us on the internet. This

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00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: concludes our episode, but not our show. Find Stuff they

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00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: Don't Want You to Know on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

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00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: We especially like to recommend our Facebook community group Here's

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00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: where it gets Crazy, where you get to hang out

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00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: with our favorite part of the show, your fellow listeners.

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00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: M h h. Stuff they Don't Want You to Know

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00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works.

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00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i

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Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.