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Speaker 4: All of a sudden, these floods just ravage through all

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Speaker 4: of these neighborhoods in Valencia and left hundreds, if not

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Speaker 4: thousands dead as a result.

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Speaker 5: So completely reckless response from the government.

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Speaker 6: What happens when the greatest threat during a natural disaster

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Speaker 6: isn't the storm itself, but the response. My name is

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Speaker 6: James Lee, and you're watching Beyond the Headlines on Breaking

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Speaker 6: Points here in the United States. Hurricane Helene devastated communities

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Speaker 6: across western North Carolina in late September of this year.

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Speaker 6: While official reports list just over one hundred fatalities. Survivors

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Speaker 6: and volunteers on the ground believe the true death toll

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Speaker 6: is far higher. Allegations of mismanagement, delayed aid, and a

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Speaker 6: lack of transparency have left many questioning whether the government

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Speaker 6: truly has the public's best interests at heart. But are

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Speaker 6: these failures unique to America, because across the Atlantic Spain

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Speaker 6: faced its own catastrophic disaster just a few weeks later.

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Speaker 6: The floods in Valencia were some of the worst in

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Speaker 6: the country's history, and like Hurricane Helene, they've exposed deep

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Speaker 6: flaws in the government's response, from ignored warnings to suppressed

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Speaker 6: death tolls and widespread mismanagement of aid.

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Speaker 1: The parallels are striking.

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Speaker 6: So today we're going to explore what we can learn

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Speaker 6: from these disasters and if they reveal a deeper crisis

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Speaker 6: in government corruption in countries around the world. So joining

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Speaker 6: me today is Ierra Modarelli. She's an investigative journalist and

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Speaker 6: associate editor at twenty first Century Wire, and she was

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Speaker 6: recently on the ground in Valencia. Her reporting has uncovered

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Speaker 6: shocking details about what really happened during and after the floods,

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Speaker 6: something the mainstream media has failed to do.

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Speaker 1: Ira. Thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Thanks so much for having me. James.

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Speaker 6: What I want to start off saying is I think

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Speaker 6: Americans we often only focus on domestic stories in our media,

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Speaker 6: But when I came across your reporting, I noticed that

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Speaker 6: there were so many parallels between what happened in Spain

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Speaker 6: and what happened in North Carolina with Hurricane Helene, which

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Speaker 6: we're going to get into. But for our audience who

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Speaker 6: may not know too much about what happened in Spain

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Speaker 6: and Valencia, can you give us a brief recap of

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Speaker 6: that disaster.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 4: This happened over a month ago, So on the twenty

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Speaker 4: ninth of October, there were some really devastating bloods over

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Speaker 4: here in Valencia, particularly in flood prone areas, very urban areas.

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Speaker 4: The government was very aware that these were blood prone areas,

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Speaker 4: but over the years, they just kept building out in

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Speaker 4: these areas and pushing people towards this region of Valencia.

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Speaker 4: This was, you know, marked as as the worst natural

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Speaker 4: disaster that's ever hit Spain before. And one of the

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Speaker 4: things that really compounded the tragedy massively was the fact

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Speaker 4: that the early warning systems failed. So we have just

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Speaker 4: like you guys in the US, we have a Spanish

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Speaker 4: meteorological agency called imet here issued a red weather or

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Speaker 4: in the morning of the floods, but the Valencian President,

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Speaker 4: Carlos Son kind of dismissed it, ignored it and told people,

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Speaker 4: you know, that there was there was nothing to be

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Speaker 4: worried about, downplayed it, and people went about their days

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Speaker 4: and all of a sudden, these floods just ravaged through

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Speaker 4: all of these neighborhoods in Valencia and left hundreds, if

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Speaker 4: not thousands dead as a result. So completely reckless response

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Speaker 4: from the government, very similar to what happened with Hurricane Helene.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, when you speak, when you mentioned the failure of

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Speaker 6: the early warnings, that kind of brought back memories of

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Speaker 6: what happened in Maui with the wildfires that happened. There

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Speaker 6: many people on the ground saying that they got no

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Speaker 6: warning of that. And then you also just mentioned the

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Speaker 6: death toll being very high into the thousands, which I

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Speaker 6: don't believe is the actual death count. And I know

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Speaker 6: that when you actually went on the ground and talked

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Speaker 6: to people and recorded exactly what they saw. You know,

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Speaker 6: one of the most shocking parts of your reporting was

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Speaker 6: this discrepancy in death toll. So can you tell us

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Speaker 6: a little bit about what the locals are saying and

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Speaker 6: why they think the number is so much higher and

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Speaker 6: what kind of evidence is there to support those claims.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, one prefacing this with I will be in violence

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Speaker 4: here for five days my first visit there, and then

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Speaker 4: for another two days. I just came back last weekend.

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Speaker 4: I've spoken to about thirty or forty neighbors, maybe more

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Speaker 4: when I was on the ground, kind of just start conversations,

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Speaker 4: and every neighbor wants to tell you what they saw.

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Speaker 4: And every single person I spoke to had told me

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Speaker 4: that they'd seen more than one body being either pulled

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Speaker 4: out of a garage or people being stuck on the

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Speaker 4: highway on the night of the floods, and just hearing

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Speaker 4: how all these cars were being washed away on the highway,

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Speaker 4: and you know, they were all beeping, and the beeping

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Speaker 4: sounds got more faint and less and less cars were beeping,

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Speaker 4: So in other words, people were literally dying and and

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Speaker 4: and these people that were trapped there were watching this

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Speaker 4: horrifically happening in front of their eyes, unable to do

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Speaker 4: anything about it. And I spoke and saw a bunch

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Speaker 4: of things myself when I was there. So let's start

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Speaker 4: with the government is reporting this as two hundred and

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Speaker 4: twenty plus deaths right now. The missing toll is in

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Speaker 4: the one eight hundred to two thousand. Initially was at

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Speaker 4: that count, but I've spoken to various neighbors who had.

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Speaker 5: And I go through this in my investigation too.

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Speaker 4: Who had identified either family members as dead, or friends

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Speaker 4: or neighbors or such as dead effectively steamed the bodies

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Speaker 4: and identified them, and yet family members were marked as

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Speaker 4: missing instead of dead. And one of the reasons I

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Speaker 4: believe why this is happening is because for every deceased person,

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Speaker 4: the Spanish government needs to allocate around seventy two thousand

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Speaker 4: euros to the family members. And one of the big

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Speaker 4: clues that I got when I was on the ground

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Speaker 4: was I went into a garage that was flooded. The

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Speaker 4: floor below, I later found out, had a bunch of

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Speaker 4: bodies still in it. So I was on the first

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Speaker 4: floor and the floor below that was completely inundated. Still

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Speaker 4: on my first visit, there were three body bags in

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Speaker 4: that one garage that I went into, and I filmed them.

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Speaker 5: I went in and I filmed them, and then.

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Speaker 4: I talked to the locals about what they saw, and

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Speaker 4: they saw people being called out of this garage specifically.

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Speaker 5: And I went back.

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Speaker 4: Two weeks later, and the state forces, whether that be

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Speaker 4: you know, the military or whoever is pulling these bodies out,

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Speaker 4: needs to mark these areas garages mostly of tunnels or

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Speaker 4: so they need to a little mock on the garages

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Speaker 4: an s specifically, which means sa gala, which means we

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Speaker 4: remove bodies from here. And so I asked the neighbor,

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Speaker 4: where is that, because we can clearly see the body bags,

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Speaker 4: but we can't actually see that they've not They said

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Speaker 4: they don't do that because then you could obviously kind

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Speaker 4: of go around all these towns, count the numbers and

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Speaker 4: see that massive discrepancy. So neighbors on the ground believe

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Speaker 4: that there are thousands of people that have perished, and

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Speaker 4: that most of these bodies are in the sea at

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Speaker 4: this point, they've been washed into the sea, and every

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Speaker 4: single neighbor I talk to shaw bodies. So it's much

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Speaker 4: much higher, I believe than what they're saying.

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Speaker 6: Wow, so you're saying that there's actually a financial incentive

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Speaker 6: from the government's perspective to classify people as either missing

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Speaker 6: or just forget about them completely, because if they are

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Speaker 6: reported as dead, there's some coverage that the government needs

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Speaker 6: to provide for the families. And I think in the US,

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Speaker 6: you know, we witness complete dysfunction, some would say corruption,

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Speaker 6: kind of like what you're talking about in terms of

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Speaker 6: the federal government's response. You had people like yourself, you know,

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Speaker 6: or volunteers, aid organizations going in and having to step

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Speaker 6: in and help, and we also heard reports here of

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Speaker 6: those organizations being turned away. It was kind of a

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Speaker 6: complete mess. And I think you talked about something similar

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Speaker 6: happening in Spain as well. Can you tell us a

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Speaker 6: little bit more about.

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Speaker 5: That, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 4: I mean when I first heard about FIEMA turning away

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Speaker 4: volunteers and hurricane, and then I was completely stunned at

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Speaker 4: that happening. And then I saw it for myself when

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Speaker 4: I went to Valencia, a different organization, this case, the

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Speaker 4: Red Cross. I spoke to an interviewed also in the investigation,

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Speaker 4: an interview with an independent aid worker that was on

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Speaker 4: the ground at a distribution center that was next to

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Speaker 4: where I was sleeping.

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Speaker 5: So I was in this distribution.

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Speaker 4: Center quite a lot gathering things for neighbors and so,

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Speaker 4: and I came across her and she said, I want

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Speaker 4: to tell you, you know, what's been going on here,

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Speaker 4: because she was really visibly upset, and she said, every

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Speaker 4: day I come here independently, I just want to hand

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Speaker 4: out things to the neighbors, and the Red Cross follows

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Speaker 4: me around and monitors what I'm doing and impedes me

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Speaker 4: from handing these donations out to neighbors. So you know,

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Speaker 4: these these items are being flown away. The Red Cross

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Speaker 4: is instead asking people for financial donations, seems what they're

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Speaker 4: most interested in. And when I was on the ground,

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Speaker 4: I saw a couple of Red Cross cars kind of

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Speaker 4: just fitting tightly there and not doing much, and not

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Speaker 4: once did I actually see the Red Cross handing something out.

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Speaker 4: And another volunteer that I was there with told me

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Speaker 4: that she saw the Red Cross putting a big camera

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Speaker 4: on their car and filming themselves handing something out to

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Speaker 4: the neighbors, something that we've never seen on the ground.

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Speaker 4: But you know, they were doing this for their social

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Speaker 4: media channels to show that they're they're helping, but they

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Speaker 4: weren't the big majority of people that were there on

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Speaker 4: the ground helping were mostly volunteers. And this is also

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Speaker 4: something that a neighbor tells me about in another interview,

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Speaker 4: that not neither the state forces nor these human rights

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Speaker 4: organizations or NGOs are actually helping. That it's mostly individuals

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Speaker 4: and volunteers and nobody else. And on top of that,

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Speaker 4: we have a massive media blackout around the story too.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so I wanted to ask you about the media

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Speaker 6: because I think, at least from our perspective here in

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Speaker 6: the States, we have very very high I think media

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Speaker 6: distress is probably at an all time high, perhaps warranted

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Speaker 6: writing in relation to some of these natural disasters, the

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Speaker 6: reporting that they've done right always see you know, it's

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Speaker 6: funny because we see these fact checks right people on

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Speaker 6: the ground are saying, hey, FEMA is blocking aid, and

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Speaker 6: then they would do these short segments or articles saying, oh,

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Speaker 6: we fact checked that we've called FEMA. They said, that's

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Speaker 6: not happening, and then they just kind of move on.

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Speaker 6: I know that you're on the ground there, so and

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Speaker 6: I read like some of the stuff that you talk about,

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Speaker 6: like claims of the media actually misinforming people or even

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Speaker 6: sometimes staging events, can you or staging certain events to

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Speaker 6: portray a certain narrative. Can you go into that a

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Speaker 6: little bit?

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Speaker 1: And also what's the.

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Speaker 6: General public sentiment that people have towards mainstream media in Europe?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean in Europe, as in the entire world,

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Speaker 5: people don't trust the mainstream media anymore, very rightfully, so

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Speaker 5: I should say on this particular instance, there were a.

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Speaker 4: Couple of different instances that we can go into that

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Speaker 4: kind of went viral, and then one that I saw myself.

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Speaker 4: So a couple of things that went viral around this

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Speaker 4: was reports and videos of journalists or a journalists in

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Speaker 4: this case kind of ducking down covering himself in mud

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Speaker 4: after being completely clean in a you know, zone full

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Speaker 4: of mud everywhere, completely clean, meaning he had just arrived,

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Speaker 4: so covering himself in mud real quick, and then grabbing

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Speaker 4: the microphone and saying, you know, I'm ready, let's go.

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Speaker 4: And this this was caught on camera. So that was

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Speaker 4: one for a big outlets here called.

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Speaker 5: Bodies on It. And then to what I saw, you know,

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Speaker 5: minutes twenty minutes or.

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Speaker 4: So after I had left this garage and see lead

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Speaker 4: bodybags and just you know, spoken to completely traumatized neighbors.

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Speaker 4: I see another big outlets in the street with their

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Speaker 4: microphone kind of waiting and setting up and I start

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Speaker 4: of seeing what's going on here? What are they setting

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Speaker 4: up for? And the neighbors tell me this is the

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Speaker 4: police is about to march down the street together with

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Speaker 4: the military kind of in a in a show of

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Speaker 4: you know, we're helping so much here and look at us.

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Speaker 4: And those are the stories that they were covering when

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Speaker 4: we were seeing, you know, not that much military on

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Speaker 4: the ground, very little police, to be honest, and when

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Speaker 4: we were seeing them, they were often seen smoking, growing

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Speaker 4: on their phones, kind of chilling while volunteers we're doing

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Speaker 4: the heavy lifting.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's so disturbing to hear all of these stories

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Speaker 6: and where my mind goes and when when a population

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Speaker 6: deals with something like this, there's almost no other path

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Speaker 6: them to start going down other than to think, okay,

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Speaker 6: is there some sort of you know, conspiracy going on here?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 6: When you talk about these certain powerful, nefarious figures or

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Speaker 6: institutions taking advantage of these disasters here, you know, we

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Speaker 6: have stories about maybe there's deeper motives at play, real

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Speaker 6: estate interest covering up you know, the mismanagement that's going on,

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Speaker 6: or facilitating a land grab, something like that. So I'm

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Speaker 6: just curious what is your overall opinion about these kinds

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Speaker 6: of ideas and is there anything on the ground that

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Speaker 6: would suggests any truth to these things.

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Speaker 4: So I think, you know, not to get too conspiratorials here,

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Speaker 4: but I think that of course, there was a lot

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Speaker 4: of money that was made out of this tragedy, and

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Speaker 4: the governments very obviously could care less. There's massive protests

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Speaker 4: on the ground that are not being covered by the

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Speaker 4: media because people want both the Valencian president and Philip Sancheus,

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Speaker 4: who's the president of Spain, to step down. That this

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Speaker 4: could have really easily been avoided, and they chose not to.

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Speaker 4: They chose to play party politics. Even the Valencian president

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Speaker 4: was at an award ceremony on the day of the bloods.

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Speaker 5: Oh.

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Speaker 4: You know, it just gets worse and worse the more

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Speaker 4: you talk about it. But I think, of course, in

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Speaker 4: this instance, it's opportunity and money that was available that

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Speaker 4: they made that's not going to get handed out. So

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Speaker 4: where is that money going to go?

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Speaker 5: Who knows?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, we appreciate you for going on the ground,

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Speaker 6: and I think, you know, between all of us independent media,

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Speaker 6: I think is the future. I think mainstream media has

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Speaker 6: shown that they're going to they've they've abdicated their duty,

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Speaker 6: so it's kind of up to us to pick up

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Speaker 6: the pieces there. So before I let you go, I

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Speaker 6: do want to I do want you to tell the

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Speaker 6: audience about the kind of reporting that you do and

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Speaker 6: where they would be able to go to find more

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Speaker 6: of your work.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks so much.

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Speaker 4: So I work for twenty plus century. Y. You can

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Speaker 4: find all that work on my profile. You can find

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Speaker 4: the investigation link to my Twitter and yeah, I'm mostly

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Speaker 4: active on Twitter, and you can see a catalog of

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Speaker 4: all my investigations and work on the twenty first century.

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Speaker 5: Why.

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Speaker 6: Well, thank you so much Eric for joining us today

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Speaker 6: on Breaking Points and look forward.

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Speaker 1: To talking to you against sin.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me me.

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Speaker 1: That's it for me today.

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Speaker 6: If you want more stories that the mainstream media is

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Speaker 6: unwilling to tell, please check out and subscribe to my

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Speaker 6: YouTube channel fifty one to forty nine with James Lee.

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Speaker 6: The link will be in the description below. As always,

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Speaker 6: thank you so much for your time today and keep

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Speaker 6: on tuning into Breaking Points.

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Speaker 7: On November fifth, twenty twenty four, right after voting for

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Speaker 7: Donald Trump, millions of people turned their ballots over and

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Speaker 7: voted for things on ballot measures that Trump will almost

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Speaker 7: certainly never give them, abortion as a constitutional right, or

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Speaker 7: higher minimum wage, paid leave. These are all promises of

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Speaker 7: the Democrats, and clearly people want them. Yet when it

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Speaker 7: came time to vote for the candidate who supports those things,

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Speaker 7: millions of people chose the other person.

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Speaker 1: So why is that.

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Speaker 7: Alaska, Missouri, and Nebraska all had ballot measures having to

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Speaker 7: do with paid sick leave. If you are, for example,

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Speaker 7: a part time worker in Nebraska, you probably don't get

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Speaker 7: sick leave, since, as of twenty twenty, only eleven point

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Speaker 7: six percent of part time workers there have any kind

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Speaker 7: of paid sick time. So if you're not in that group,

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Speaker 7: you will probably at some point have to choose between

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Speaker 7: staying homesick and earning rent money, and hopefully you don't

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Speaker 7: have a job handling people's food. Let's look at Trump's

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Speaker 7: position on paid sick leaf. There is nothing from his

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Speaker 7: campaign website and there is nothing in the official GOP platform. Conversely,

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Speaker 7: Tim Wallas recently signed a bill establishing a statewide paid

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Speaker 7: sick leave program. During Harris's campaign, she listed paid medical

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Speaker 7: leave as priority, and medical leave would generally include sick days.

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Speaker 7: So if you're one of the thirty four million workers

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Speaker 7: who lack paid sick leave and that was your concern,

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Speaker 7: Harris gives you a lot more to work with. These

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Speaker 7: states obviously went for Trump, they also voted for Republican governors, senators,

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Speaker 7: and Alaska gave their one congressional district to a Republican.

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Speaker 7: Yet after sixty percent of Nebraska voted for Trump, up

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Speaker 7: seventy four percent voted for paid sickly, as did Alaska

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Speaker 7: and Missouri.

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Speaker 8: When we think about politics through a two party lens,

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Speaker 8: there's this sort of assumption that you can categorize all

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Speaker 8: the issues in one or the other, and then there's

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Speaker 8: this assumption that goes along with that that if people

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Speaker 8: are voting for candidates from one party, they necessarily would

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Speaker 8: vote the way that you would assume on all those issues,

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Speaker 8: and that's just not true. I think that's never been true,

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Speaker 8: but I think that's increasingly. You know, the sort of

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Speaker 8: affiliation of the parties with what they stand for is

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Speaker 8: becoming destabilized. So I grew up, for example, in northern

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Speaker 8: New Jersey, just outside New York City, all Democrat in

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Speaker 8: local politics, and so functionally you have a one party

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Speaker 8: system there so ballot initiatives present an opportunity to vote

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Speaker 8: on a policy directly apart from the party politics of

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Speaker 8: wherever you live.

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Speaker 7: So let's take minimum wage. Since two thousand and two,

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Speaker 7: there have been twenty six measures for statewide wage races.

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Speaker 7: Democrats have talked a lot about raising the minimum wage

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Speaker 7: and if you want to hire minimum wage Harris again

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Speaker 7: made the most sense because she supported raising the minimum

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Speaker 7: wage though on her campaign website and only said that

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Speaker 7: she'll fight for a higher minimum wage. She eventually committed

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Speaker 7: to a fifteen dollars minimum wage on October twenty second,

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Speaker 7: which is still lower than the living wage in most places,

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Speaker 7: and it was probably too late for enough people to notice.

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Speaker 7: But Trump is decidedly worse on minimum wage. His website

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Speaker 7: and not to mention, the official R and C platform

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Speaker 7: does not mention minimum wage at all. Despite this, people

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Speaker 7: went to the polls and voted for both minimum wage

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Speaker 7: and Trump, such as the case with Missouri and Alaska,

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Speaker 7: which both voted to raise the minimum wage after first

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Speaker 7: voting for Trump. In fact, out of the twenty six

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Speaker 7: minimum wage measures so far this century, all have passed

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Speaker 7: except for California.

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Speaker 8: This last election in California, I think is a is

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Speaker 8: an outlier that it does bear some consideration. For a

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Speaker 8: long time, California has been kind of like the ballot

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Speaker 8: initiative Dystopia the minimum wage and cree.

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Speaker 6: It was a very small.

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Speaker 8: Minimum wage increase, was one to two dollars, and they

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Speaker 8: already have a minimum wage that's tacked to inflation, so

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Speaker 8: they're going to see a raised in January anyway. So

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Speaker 8: the specifics around that, I think have more to do

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Speaker 8: with the with the sort of broader political culture and

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Speaker 8: what's going on in California than a specific vote against

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Speaker 8: wage increases.

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Speaker 7: But generally this is a winner.

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Speaker 8: Because most people work for a living and lots of

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Speaker 8: people make low wages. So if you ask people, should

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Speaker 8: you make more money, most people are going.

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Speaker 4: To say yes.

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Speaker 7: But no issue exemplifies this more than the issue the

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Speaker 7: Democrats drive the hardest in the fight.

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Speaker 1: For reproductive rights.

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Speaker 6: You mentioned reproductive rights, abortion.

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Speaker 7: Abortion, reproductive rights, reproductive rights and freedom.

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Speaker 1: What do you want to say, Madam Vice President, I'm

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Speaker 1: just so sorry.

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Speaker 7: Why is it that in the state of Missouri fifty

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Speaker 7: three percent of voters voted to put abortion in the

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Speaker 7: state constitution, but forty percent of those voters voted for KAMLA.

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Speaker 7: That means over one point five million people voted in

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Speaker 7: favor of protecting reproductive rights, but against the part which

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Speaker 7: is most passionate about it. And just to recap, Trump

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Speaker 7: has said abortion should be left to the states. Every

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Speaker 7: Trump Supreme Court justice voted to overturn Roe v. Wade,

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Speaker 7: and his VP Vance stated in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 5: I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.

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Speaker 7: The VANCE has walked back that claim recently to fall

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Speaker 7: in line with Trump's position, and the official party position

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Speaker 7: is to protect and defend a vote of the people

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Speaker 7: from within the states. Essentially, they're shifting their attack on

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Speaker 7: reproductive rights to focus on action at the state level,

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Speaker 7: where ballot measures play a critical role in codifying those rights.

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Speaker 7: So to be clear, it's not that conservatives feel so

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Speaker 7: strongly about states rights. Rather, it's their way of rolling

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Speaker 7: back reproductive rights in their entirety. Out of ten states

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Speaker 7: that had abortion on the ballot, seven of the measures

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Speaker 7: passed New York, Colorado, Missouri, Arizona, Nevada, Maryland, and Montana.

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Speaker 7: Only three South Dakota, Nebraska and Florida did not.

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Speaker 8: If we looked at polls going back years, we would

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Speaker 8: see that a majority of American support did some measure

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Speaker 8: of abortion rights. What ballot initiatives do is they sort

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Speaker 8: of bring that reality to the foe. So in twenty

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Speaker 8: twenty two, when the Supreme Court issued their Dobbs decision,

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Speaker 8: when they overturned the Roevwade abortion protections, the Republican legislators

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Speaker 8: in Kansas rushed a vote onto the ballot to allow

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Speaker 8: them to ban abortion, and you know, they got crushed.

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Speaker 8: They lost by something like sixty percent.

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Speaker 7: And actually a majority of Florida voters also chose to

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Speaker 7: put abortion in the state constitution, but didn't meet the

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Speaker 7: sixty percent threshold. And so even Florida is mostly in

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Speaker 7: favor of protecting abortion rights, even though Trump won that

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Speaker 7: state by a large margin. And wait, why does Florida

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Speaker 7: require sixty percent? So in two thousand and six, Florida

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Speaker 7: passed an amendment to the constitution that would require a

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Speaker 7: super majority or at least sixty percent of the vote

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Speaker 7: to pass all future ballot measures. And that amendment passed

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Speaker 7: with ironically only fifty seven percent of the vote, the

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Speaker 7: same amount of people who voted in favor of protecting

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Speaker 7: abortion rights in Florida. Their states also have some sort

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Speaker 7: of supermajority rule on the books. For instance, New Hampshire

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Speaker 7: requires two thirds of the vote to pass an amendment,

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Speaker 7: and Arizona currently requires a supermajority only to pass tax

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Speaker 7: related measures. But in addition to the issues I've already

443
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 7: talked about here, with increasing frequency, ballot measures have been

444
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 7: used to take up causes like marijuana legalization, redistricting, expanding medicaid,

445
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 7: and so what would seem to be a direct response

446
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 7: to the success of these ballot measures are amendments requiring

447
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 7: a supermajority to pass ballot measures in the first place.

448
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 7: They've been popping up all over the country. Ironically, these

449
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 7: amendments are being voted on through the same ballot measures

450
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 7: legislators are trying to make harder to pass, and so.

451
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 8: We see an increase in the past few years of

452
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 8: legislative moves to try to limit the direct vote by

453
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 8: raising the threshold to win, raising the threshold to qualify,

454
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 8: you know, making it harder to gather signature is making

455
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 8: you gather them in more places.

456
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 7: All these ballot measures have something important in common. They're

457
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 7: all dealing with material issues. And in particular ones that

458
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 7: voters might find it hard to have a saying through

459
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 7: other means. So minimum wage hikes and paid sickly are

460
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 7: pretty obvious material issues, but reproductive rights are as well,

461
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 7: because unfettered access to abortion is often framed as a

462
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 7: right to autonomy over one's body. My body, my choice.

463
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 7: Being denied necessary emergency care, especially in red states where

464
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 7: providers may be reluctant until or unless the life of

465
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 7: the mother is actually in jeopardy, that is a critical issue.

466
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 7: But one of the most common reasons people and pregnancies

467
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 7: wanted or otherwise are financial. Thing about the couple, for example,

468
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 7: who are barely scraping by with one kid and they

469
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 7: know a second child would just be a financial burden

470
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 7: they can't do so. Having the right to self determination

471
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 7: over one's body is obviously human right, but you can't

472
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 7: separate that from one's material conditions. So my takeaway from

473
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 7: this is that people want material change and will vote

474
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 7: to affirm this when it's presented with clear and predictable outcomes.

475
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 7: Voters are less interested though, in campaign promises that may

476
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 7: or may not come to fruition if the candidate wins,

477
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 7: or in declarations of theoretical support, neither of which help

478
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 7: working people pay their rent or feed their kids, and

479
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 7: ballot measures are one of the few ways for people

480
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 7: to engage with direct democracy. So if the Democrats ever

481
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 7: want to see the inside of the White House again,

482
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 7: they would do well to embrace more than paltry messages

483
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 7: of general support and start committing to the concrete material

484
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 7: things that voters keep saying they will show up for,

485
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 7: and that will do it for me. My name is

486
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 7: Spencer Snyder. If you found this video interesting, make sure

487
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 7: you are subscribed to Breaking Points. You can find me

488
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 7: on Twitter or at my own channel. Liking sharing always helps.

489
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 7: Thank you to Breaking Points. Thank you so much for watching,

490
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 7: and I will see you in the next one.

491
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 9: Not obvious why this case would be limited to TikTok

492
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 9: or limited to China. Once you accept the idea that

493
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 9: the government can protect us from foreign manipulation by preventing

494
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 9: us from access saying foreign media, there are lots of

495
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 9: other platforms the government might become concerned about.

496
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 6: Do national security interests outweigh your constitutional right to free speech.

497
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 6: My name is James Lee and you're watching Beyond the

498
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 6: Headlines on break Points in April of twenty twenty four,

499
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 6: Congress passed a law that would ban TikTok if their

500
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 6: Chinese parent company, by Dance, refuse to sell the app

501
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 6: to an American buyer, and just a few weeks ago,

502
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 6: a federal Court of Appeals upheld that law. The government

503
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 6: claims that it's protecting Americans from foreign manipulation and data theft,

504
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 6: but critics warn the decision weakens the First Amendment and

505
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 6: sets a dangerous precedent for free expression. So to help

506
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 6: us understand what's at stake, I'm joined today by Jamil Jaffer.

507
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 6: He is the executive director of the Night First Amendment

508
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 6: Institute at Columbia University. Jamille, thank you so much for

509
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 6: joining us today on breaking Points.

510
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: Sure, thanks for the vization absolutely.

511
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 6: I guess just to catch people up, can you summarize

512
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 6: for us what the recent ruling was from the DC

513
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 6: Circuit Court? Specifically, why do the judges decide that banning

514
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 6: TikTok does not violate the First Amendment of the Constitution.

515
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 6: A term that I've heard being used is something called

516
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 6: script strict scrutiny. That's tough to say, strict scrutiny. So

517
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 6: can you break that down for us in layman's terms,

518
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 6: so we can all understand what is going on here.

519
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, So, I mean, the first thing you have to

520
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 9: recognize is that, you know, this is sometimes characterized as

521
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 9: a ban on a foreign company operating in the United States,

522
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 9: and that is not actually an accurate characterization of what's

523
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 9: going on here. The effect of the ban is to

524
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 9: prevent one hundred and seventy million or so Americans from

525
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 9: accessing a media platform that they would like to access.

526
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 9: So it's a restriction on the rights of US citizens

527
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 9: and US residents who want to consume particular expressive products

528
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 9: but also participate in the conversation that takes place on TikTok,

529
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 9: you know, share their own videos, watch other people's videos,

530
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 9: engage with the various communities that have been built on

531
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 9: that you know, on that platform, the d C Circuit

532
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 9: understood that the law restricts American's First Amendment rights, and so, uh,

533
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 9: you know, started with basically the premise that you know,

534
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 9: this law is subject to scrutiny undo the First Amendment. Now,

535
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 9: you know, in some ways that's unremarkable, but worth noting

536
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 9: that the bind administration did argue that the law shouldn't

537
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 9: even be subject to First Amendments scrutiny that basically the

538
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 9: First Amendment was not implicated here at all, which is

539
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 9: kind of a crazy argument. But the court rejected that argument.

540
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 9: Then the question became, well, what kind of scrutiny, like

541
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 9: how how closely should the court examine the government's motivations

542
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 9: here and examine the law itself. And that's the debate

543
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 9: that you reference, you know, this debate about strict scrutiny

544
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 9: versus intermediate scrutiny. There were judge two judges on the

545
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 9: court who believe that strict scrutiny was the right standard.

546
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 9: Another judge thought that intermediate scrutiny was the right standard.

547
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 9: But ultimately all the judges concluded that the band satisfies

548
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 9: First Amendment.

549
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: Requirements.

550
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 9: So that you know, this dispute over the level of scrutiny,

551
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 9: it didn't turn out to be consequential. You know, the

552
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 9: the ban was upheld by all three judges. Basically the

553
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 9: argument so there were really two arguments for the ban.

554
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 9: One has to do with data collection. The theory is

555
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 9: that TikTok collects a lot of data about its usual

556
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 9: It obviously does collect a lot of data about its users,

557
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 9: just like other social media platforms do, and so one

558
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 9: justification for the ban as well, this is a way

559
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 9: of limiting data collection by TikTok. The other justification that

560
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 9: the government offered was that TikTok is controlled by a

561
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 9: Chinese corporation. That Chinese corporation, Byte Dance is under the

562
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 9: influence of the Chinese government, and at one point or another,

563
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 9: the Chinese government might decide, well, we want to use

564
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 9: byt Dance and TikTok as a means of propagandizing or

565
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 9: manipulating Americans. And there's a kind of degree of speculation here.

566
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 9: I mean some people would say a large degree of speculation.

567
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 9: Even the government conceded there's no evidence, they have no

568
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 9: evidence that TikTok is actually being used in this way.

569
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 9: But this was the fear that motivated, or at least

570
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 9: the government said in court, this is the fear that

571
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 9: motivated the ban.

572
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that.

573
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 6: You co wrote an op ed in The New York

574
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 6: Times recently where you talked about this a little bit.

575
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 6: You argued that the court gave quote near categorical deference

576
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 6: to the government's national security claims. Like you said, we

577
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 6: haven't been shown evidence of these claims. The dj did

578
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 6: release that report, I believe a couple months ago, almost

579
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 6: the whole thing was redapted, so we didn't really actually

580
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 6: see any of the evidence that they were talking about.

581
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: So is that normal or can the government.

582
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 6: Just use national security if they want to pass laws

583
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 6: that basically push up against what's permitted by the Constitution.

584
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, I mean, unfortunately, there is a long history

585
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 9: in this country of the courts deferring to the government

586
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 9: in national security cases. Now there is a kind of

587
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 9: counter history, or at least a thread of of case

588
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 9: law that is inconsistent with that sort of larger body

589
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 9: of the national security case law, and that thread of

590
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 9: case law involves the First Amendment. So when you know,

591
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 9: while it's true the courts generally defer to the government

592
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 9: in national security cases, they have tended to be less

593
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 9: deferential in First Amendment cases because the courts understand that

594
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 9: free speech is so important to our democracy and the

595
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 9: integrity of public discourse is part of what gives legitimacy

596
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 9: to the government's national security policies. In other words, you know,

597
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 9: the only reason we have faith to the extent we

598
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 9: do have faith that the government's national security policies have

599
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 9: democratic legitimacy is because we believe people can debate those

600
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 9: policies openly and that the debate is informed. And so

601
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 9: when the government invokes national security as a means of

602
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 9: constraining that debate, the courts have been less deferential. So

603
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 9: in this particular case, the judges were very deferential to

604
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 9: the government. They basically accepted at base value that the

605
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 9: government was motivated by those two concerns I mentioned data

606
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 9: collection and foreign manipulation, even though the legislative record makes

607
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 9: it very very clear that many legislators were motivated by

608
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 9: disagreement with particular categories of content. There were lots of

609
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 9: legislators who said this quite candidly. They said, look, I

610
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 9: don't like the videos I see on TikTok, but they

611
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 9: are encouraging our kids to do terrible things. They are

612
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 9: calling into question our government's policies. They are pro Russia,

613
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 9: they are pro Palestine or programs is the way that

614
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 9: they put it. And the justification, the actual justification for

615
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 9: the law, which legislators were quite open about, was let's

616
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 9: suppress stuff that we disagree with, and the court dismissed

617
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 9: all of that in one phrase. The court said, oh,

618
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 9: there were some It's true, there were some stray comments

619
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 9: in the legislative record. It wasn't straight is the whole

620
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 9: legislative record is replete with those kinds of those kinds

621
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 9: of comments. So that's one sense in which the court was,

622
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 9: you know, extremely deferential to you know, the government's factual

623
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 9: assertions here, even though the evidence was inconsistent with those assertions.

624
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 9: Another sense is when when it came to so both

625
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 9: under strict scrutiny and intermediate scrutiny, the court has to

626
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 9: look to what other ways the government would have had

627
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 9: to achieve its stated goals. And here there are lots

628
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 9: of obvious ways the government could achieve its stated goals

629
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 9: without banning Americans from accessing this app So, for example,

630
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 9: when it comes to foreign manipulation, the government says that

631
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 9: the concern is that Americans are being covertly manipulated. In

632
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 9: other words, the Chinese Communist Party is or may at

633
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 9: one point manipulate them covertly by you know, fixing the

634
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 9: algorithm or or or screwing with the algorithm so that

635
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 9: Americans see only what the Chinese government wants them to see. Now, again,

636
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 9: it's highly speculative. But if that is the concern, it's

637
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 9: not obvious why transparency doesn't address So why can't the

638
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 9: government just tell Americans we think this is propaganda.

639
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, if we were to stealman that argument a little

640
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 6: bit in terms of the TikTok ban, even if the

641
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 6: government hasn't provided this concrete evidence for us, and we say, okay,

642
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 6: let's go with a more precautionary approach to this. And

643
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 6: let's say TikTok is controlled by China. They're using it

644
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 6: exactly how we say. They're using it for manipulating us

645
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 6: to collect our data, this and that, and there are

646
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 6: other apps that US Americans can use devoice our opinion.

647
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 1: Just do that. How do you respond to that kind

648
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: of argument.

649
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, I think it's a fine argument for

650
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 9: the government to make to Americans. Like, if the government

651
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 9: wants to say to Americans, use those other apps rather

652
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 9: than this one, there's no reason the government can't do that.

653
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 9: But I think that, you know, sort of core to

654
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 9: the First Amendment, Like at the very center of the

655
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 9: First Amendment is this idea that individuals get to decide

656
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 9: for themselves which ideas are worth listening to, which media

657
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 9: to consume. I mean, this is the center of the

658
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 9: First Amendment, and the government can participate in public discourse

659
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 9: about the platforms or about media. The government can say,

660
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 9: you know, don't watch MSNBC, it's you know, it's propaganda.

661
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 9: The government can say don't watch Fox News, it's propaganda.

662
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 9: That's you know, fine. But what it can't do is say,

663
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 9: you know, we're going to shut down MSNBC because we

664
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 9: think you're being manipulated. I mean, this is just First

665
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 9: Amendment one on one, and I think the government's arguments

666
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,479
Speaker 9: are inconsistent with it. But I just wanted to say something.

667
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 9: But the data collection argument too, because here, you know,

668
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 9: the court was also extremely deferential to to the Justice Department.

669
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 9: The Justice Department was saying, well, this is this is

670
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 9: about you know, preventing to from collecting data, but every

671
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 9: other social media platform is collecting the same data or

672
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 9: even more data about about Americans, and this law doesn't

673
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 9: do anything about those those other actors. To the extent

674
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 9: the concern is, well, those other actors aren't controlled by China,

675
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 9: and they're not you know, effectively puppets for the Chinese

676
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 9: Communist Party. Well, the government itself that the Office of

677
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 9: the Director of National Intelligence has observed in formal reports

678
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 9: that China doesn't need TikTok in order to collect this

679
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 9: kind of information in that Americans. You can buy this

680
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 9: kind of information on the open market. You can buy

681
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 9: it from data brokers. And we've seen very recently that

682
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 9: China can also collect information, much more sensitive information, just

683
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 9: by hacking into American databases. And so it's not clear

684
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 9: that this law really makes even a dent in the

685
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 9: ability of the Chinese Communist Party to collect in about Americans.

686
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 9: The much more direct way of restricting data collection is

687
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 9: by restricting what data corporations can collect.

688
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 6: And I'm not sure, yeah, how much interest Congress has

689
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 6: in doing that, in particular, given some of the lobbying

690
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 6: around you know, big tech and things like that. But

691
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 6: let's say, okay, so let's try to chart a path

692
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 6: forward here. At this point, I know Trump has talked,

693
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 6: you know, verbally about doing something. He said he's going

694
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 6: to take a look at I'm not sure exactly what

695
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 6: that means, but I guess one avenue that is clear

696
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 6: going forward is that if this case does get picked

697
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 6: up by the Supreme Court, how do you think the

698
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 6: justices are likely to rule, given on historical precedents, some

699
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 6: of the past cases, and given some of the comments

700
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 6: that you just you referenced before about you know, members

701
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 6: of Congress explicitly stating that we're banning this app because

702
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 6: of the content on it we don't like.

703
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: So how damaging are those statements to the governments?

704
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 9: I mean, I guess I'm not ready to make predictions,

705
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 9: but I accept that I will say that I think

706
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 9: that TikTok will get a more sympathetic hearing in the

707
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 9: Supreme Court than it did in the DC Circuit. I mean,

708
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 9: there is case law in the Supreme Court. There's a

709
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 9: nineteen sixty four case called Lamont versus Postmaster General, which

710
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 9: involved a law that restricted Americans from receiving foreign propaganda

711
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 9: in the mail. It basically required them to register with

712
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 9: the Post Office if they wanted to receive communist propaganda

713
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 9: from abroad, and the Supreme Court struck down that law

714
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 9: in nineteen sixty four. Is actually the first time the

715
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 9: Supreme Court struck down a federal statute under the First Amendment.

716
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 9: Struck down that law because the Court said it imposed

717
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 9: a burden on Americans right to receive information from abroad

718
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 9: and that was the case in which there was no

719
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 9: dispute that what Americans were receiving from abroad was foreign propaganda.

720
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 9: And even then, and even though it wasn't a ban,

721
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 9: it was just a burden, the court struck that statue town.

722
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 9: So I think that's a really a really strong precedent

723
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 9: for TikTok here and for TikTok's users, and if the

724
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 9: court departs from it, it'll be a pretty big deal.

725
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 9: I guess I'll just say one more thing, like just

726
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 9: just getting away from doctrine, even apart from doctrine, these

727
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 9: kinds of bans, like there's no precedent for the US

728
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 9: government banning Americans from accessing a media organization like this.

729
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 9: There's no precedent, Like there are cases in which the

730
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 9: government tries to ban people from accessing certain information. And

731
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 9: the Pentagon Paper's case was like one of those cases

732
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 9: where the you know, the government tried to get the

733
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 9: court to restrict the New York Times and the Washington

734
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 9: Post from publishing this classified history of the Vietnam War

735
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 9: or stories about this classified history, and even then the

736
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 9: court struck it down, right. But here we're going a

737
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 9: step further and saying it's essentially the government saying, well,

738
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 9: don't just for the time from publishing that story, shut

739
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 9: down the Times because they might publish that story. These

740
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 9: kinds of bands, I think, for good reason, have historically

741
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 9: been associated with autocratic and rights abusing regimes like that's

742
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 9: when we think of these kinds of bands on foreign media,

743
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 9: those are the regimes that come to mind. And I

744
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 9: think that the Supreme Court is going to be very

745
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 9: wary of going down this road because we don't want

746
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 9: to be in that company, and the First Amendment is

747
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 9: supposed to keep us keep us out of that company.

748
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, we'll see what happens there. Oftentimes there's no

749
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 6: precedent unless until there is a precedent, there is, you

750
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 6: know what I mean. And I think you know, the

751
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 6: last question I want to ask is around this more

752
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 6: broader context of you know, we're kind of living in

753
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 6: an age of information warfare, right, because it used to

754
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 6: be that publishing used to be controlled by just a

755
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 6: few people, a few institutions, and now it's much more democratized.

756
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 6: So it's hard for me not to think of a

757
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 6: slippery slope where today maybe they get rid of TikTok.

758
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: And those users. Let's say they migrate to other platforms.

759
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: Let's say one of them is X.

760
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 6: Now, let's say they start saying stuff on there they

761
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 6: don't like and X, I know, has a significant foreign

762
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 6: ownership in this case Saudi Arabia. So let's say one

763
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 6: day they decide, okay, well we don't like Saudi Arabia anymore.

764
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 6: That's a foreign adversary when we get rid of X. So,

765
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 6: you know, reading the tea leaves a little bit what

766
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 6: do you see as the future of the First Amendment

767
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 6: in the United States, you know, the attacks on it,

768
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 6: and what kind of effect does that have on democracy overall?

769
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 9: Well, I mean I at first I think that you're

770
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 9: you're absolutely right, that not obvious why this case would

771
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 9: be limited to TikTok or limited to China. Like, once

772
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 9: you accept the idea that the government can protect us

773
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 9: from foreign manipulation by preventing us from accessing foreign media,

774
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 9: you know, there's there are lots of other platforms the

775
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 9: government might become concerned about. And you know, as you mentioned,

776
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 9: like Musk has business interests all over the all over

777
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 9: the world. I mean that's true of Soccer Org too,

778
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 9: any of these you know, the people who own Bezos

779
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 9: has business interests all over the world. And if your

780
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 9: concern is well, uh domestic, uh, you know, Americans might

781
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 9: be consuming media that has been influenced by foreign pressure.

782
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 9: You know, why why stop a TikTok? You know, why

783
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 9: not give the government the ability to restrict our access

784
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 9: to the Washington Post or to to x or. I

785
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 9: really do think that you know, once you once you

786
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 9: open this store, not obvious, how you how you close it,

787
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 9: how you close it again, and then your you know,

788
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 9: your broader question. I mean, you're right, you know, for

789
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 9: a variety of reasons, including the rise of sort of

790
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 9: autocracy around the world, but also technological change and these

791
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 9: new communications platforms that have emerged over the last twenty years.

792
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 9: You know, we're really in a totally new world. And

793
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 9: you can't take for granted that the First Amendment precedents

794
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 9: that the courts you know, set in the nineteen sixties

795
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 9: and seventies will be adhered to today. And you know,

796
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 9: to be fair, you can't take for granted that those

797
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 9: precedents are the right ones for this new world we're

798
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 9: living in today. And I suppose that you know, in

799
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 9: some ways, it's kind of exciting because we're kind of building,

800
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,919
Speaker 9: you know, we have to build this kind of new,

801
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 9: new system to account for all of these changes. But

802
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 9: it does it does feel like some of the freedoms

803
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 9: that we've taken for granted are suddenly you know, fragile,

804
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 9: and you know, these these cases, like the TikTok case,

805
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 9: will have a huge effect on what the free speech

806
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 9: landscape looks like in five ten years.

807
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, we'll have to see how that all plays out.

808
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 6: Thank you so much today for your insights, Jamal. Is

809
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 6: there anywhere you want to point the audience to if

810
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 6: they want to learn more?

811
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 9: H Yeah, the Night Institute, so at Nightcolumbia dot org.

812
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: All right, awesome, Well, thank you so much again for

813
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: coming on the show. And we'll see how all this

814
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: plays out.

815
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 9: Thank you,