WEBVTT - 7 | When Ideas Become Actions 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:04.320 Flashpoint is released weekly and brought to you absolutely free, 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.119 but for ad free listening, early access and exclusive bonuses, 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:13.480 subscribe to tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com or on 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:14.760 Apple Podcasts. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.759 You're listening to Flashpoint, a production of tenderfoot TV and 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:25.200 association with iHeartMedia. The views and opinions expressed in this 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:29.360 podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.159 This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.519 suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:53.040 Hello, You'll have reached to VI Israel and the Watchman 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.800 Outreach Ministries. If you would like to speak to aafter 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:09.200 game and please press three locome by the pounds. Fine, 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:10.560 good afternoon. 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:11.240 Me I help you. 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:16.119 Hey, mister Gamon, my name is Cole. I was looking 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:17.759 to get more information about your church. 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:22.039 Oh okay, yes, sir, I'd be happy to talk to you. Cole. 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:23.479 How did you find out about us? 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.920 So my story is interesting and how I found out 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.360 about your church. My mother when she was really young, 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.640 when she was seventeen, she got pregnant with me. She 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:34.360 was actually. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.720 Second married at that time. She was not okay. 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.200 She was scheduled actually to have an abortion with me, 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:45.959 and oh wow, the abortion clinic that she was scheduled 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:49.400 to have the abortion in was bombed the day before 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:52.360 by Eric Rudolph. 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:53.760 Oh my goodness. 0:01:54.160 --> 0:02:01.880 Okay, well, Cole, I am, first of all, I praised 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:06.120 the name of Jesus Christ that you are in this world. 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:11.720 What a what a deliverance, I mean, what a sad 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.359 thing that had to happen for you to get here. 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.680 But my goodness, Now, is your mother still living? 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.400 She is, she is, We're very close. 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:26.240 Oh that's as marvelous. I bet she is grateful that 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.800 you're not. You're not the victim of an abortion. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.239 Oh my goodness, you know, I really want to I 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.080 want you to know cold that I'm I'm honored to 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.480 be talking with you. 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:38.800 See. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.600 Eric Rudolph was just a very young kid when he 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.919 came through here. His mother was a widowed lady with 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.440 another brother. They had absolutely nothing. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.320 Some friend told him, you know, that they could stop 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:53.640 here and probably get some help. 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.160 Eric was a very well mannered, he was very bright, 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.359 gunk kid, and you know, we never heard one word 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:08.640 again until we heard of this very very alarming story. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.360 Out of you know, out of the South late in 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:16.280 the nineteen nineties. That was pretty amazing. We were just, 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.520 you know, we were aghast. 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:24.160 See, we've never, at any time in our history advocated 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.280 any kind of violence. We would never endorse that. We 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:31.320 would just simply find that to be rebolting. So we 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:36.000 never you know, we never in any way ever advanced 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.280 the ideas that Eric picked up. We don't know where 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.119 he got those ideas. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.240 Let me put it this way, Cole, I would not 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.040 deny for one. 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:52.600 Moment that I'm very very much opposed to abortion, I'm 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:57.680 opposed to race mixing, and I am opposed to homosexuality. 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.600 Now what am I supposed to Knowing that he's alleged 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:05.600 to a bomb, abortion plenty, a homosexual bar, and a 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.840 place where they were racially mixed. I don't know where 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.680 he picked up all those ideas, but those are all 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.920 ideas that I personally, Cole, I can open the Bible 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.000 and show you where abortion is wrong. 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:17.760 It's murder. 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.799 Race mixing is wrong, It's against God's law. We believe 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.760 that God doesn't want any race to intermingle and change 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:31.039 their nature and their original design that God gave them. 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.919 It's bizarre to me that Dan Gamon doesn't see his 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.599 part in Eric Rudolf's development. In my opinion, he's probably 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:44.480 in denial as far as Gamon's concerned. Sure they shared ideologies, 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.760 but that's where the connection ends. Eric Rudolph was, after 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:56.360 all a lone wolf, right. 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.200 And with regard to homosexuality, I need not mention to 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.560 you that the Bible is very anti homosexuality. God even 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:07.000 destroyed the whole city named Thodom and Gomorrah of homosexuals. 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.040 So all three of those are terrible, horrible sins, and 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.240 you know, they became the point of Eric's frustration to 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.520 exercise this kind of violence. And that's where I disagree 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:22.839 wholeheartedly with him, that he made a tragic mistake when 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:27.080 he went off the deep end and used violence. When 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.960 we teach God's word, his word is very clear, and 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.400 we can do it in a very Christian manner, and 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.640 that's where it stops. We don't carry it any further 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:37.040 than that. 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.159 Well, Cole, I've got an appointment I have to keep, 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.800 so I'm going to run. But you know, I want 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.600 to thank you for calling me, and I want you 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:49.479 to just if you don't mind. 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.680 Just remember this one little thought that I'm going to 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.480 say when I end this call. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.920 Cole. I'm not sure what caused you to want to 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:05.160 call this number and talk to me, but I'm wondering if. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.760 There was a higher power that was directing you, and 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.760 will call that higher power the God who created of 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.680 an an earth. You might want to think about coming 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:20.040 to visit us and learn more about us before you. 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.520 You know, weigh in heavily on judging. And don't you 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:29.120 find it a little bit interesting that your life was 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:34.480 spared from a bullish and clinic. Isn't that amazing that 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.320 you came within one day. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:37.640 Of not being here. 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.720 I have a really hard time believing that Dan Gamon 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.400 had no direct connection to Eric Rudolf or what motivated 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.400 him to become a terrorist. But here's the thing. I 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:55.520 do know these so called lone wolves, somewhere down the line, 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.440 they're always part of a pack, whether they know it 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.720 or not. I can't say precisely when and where Eric 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.440 Rudolf began to think of himself as an operative in 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:10.560 a movement, a soldier in the army of God. But 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.320 at a certain point he knew damn well what he 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.960 was doing, why he was doing it, and how it 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:22.040 would be perceived. He said it point blank after his 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:27.320 capture quote. The hope was that my actions would push 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.880 other pro lifers and patriots to bridge the gap between 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.840 their rhetoric and their actions. These attacks were not part 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:40.400 of some personal vendetta against abortionists, homosexuals, or government agents. 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.400 They were acts of war aimed at damaging, undermining, and 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.920 ultimately overthrowing the liberal establishment in America. When I heard 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.920 they were bringing the Summer Olympics to Atlanta, I thought 0:07:53.960 --> 0:08:16.760 it would make the perfect target. Episode seven, When Ideas 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:21.720 Become Actions. 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.640 This morning, at four point thirty in the morning, an 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:29.679 alert Murphy police officer noticed something unusual going on behind 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.480 the Valley Village shopping center here in Murphy. He investigated, 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.880 He called for backup, and ultimately arrested Eric Robert Rudolph 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.720 at about four point thirty am this morning. 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.160 The trial of Eric Rudolph, set to determine the consequences 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.440 for his acts of terror, was originally scheduled for August fourth, 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.280 two thousand and four. Federal Judge Lynnwood Smith delayed the 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.080 start by a year, stating the sheer volume of discovery 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.360 that still must be organized and assimilated by Defense Council 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:01.600 is staggering. 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.800 As you know, he's charged in connection with the bombings 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.400 of the Centennial Park, the Sandy Ridge Professional Center office building, 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.199 and the double bombings of the other Side Lounge in 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:19.520 midtown Atlanta. The death of a police officer in Alabama resulted, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.800 also the death of a person in Atlanta, and about 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.520 one hundred and fifty injuries resulted from these bombings. 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.360 Despite the strong evidence connecting him to these horrifying crimes, 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.120 he still had a right to a full thread of defense. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.320 Richard to this day is one of my best friends. 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:44.400 This again is former US Attorney Doug Jones. His term 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.320 as US attorney had ended by the time of Rudolph's capture, 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.880 but he still attended many of the proceedings. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.599 I just know the way Richard Jeffy handles his clients. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:10:00.199 He doesn't make judgments own people at all, and his job, 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:05.320 he understands, as a defense lawyer, is to get to 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.080 know the client, get to know the cases put the 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.960 government to their burden. He believes that every client, regardless 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.960 of the circumstance, deserves the top notch defense. He can 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:21.400 endure their trust regardless and I can assure you without 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:25.280 having sat through any of their conversations or without Richard 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:29.439 talking to me about it. They didn't talk about the politics. 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:35.080 Richard let him know that he was his advocate, and 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.800 that probably let him know that the political aspect of this, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.360 while the government may do X, it doesn't matter to him. 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.560 He has a job and he wants to know everything 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.320 about the client. He wants to understand the facts, and 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.600 he just has that mannerism as good as any lawyer 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.920 that I've ever seen that does criminal defense work. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.960 It took me months to nail down a time to 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.840 speak with Richard Jaffey, but I finally made the drive 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.960 to Birmingham to sit down with him. With the ac 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.719 blasting on a hot summer day, we settled into what 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.679 would have been the dining room in a two story 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.120 Tudor style home that had been converted into his law office. 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.280 My faith in the justice system today is certainly not 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.200 what it was when I started practicing law, which was 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:29.400 forty five years ago. I think that when the power 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:36.240 of government manifests itself, if there aren't people, mainly lawyers, 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:43.160 willing to stand up and protect the helpless and those 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:48.720 individuals that don't have power, then the democracy as we 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.520 know it will completely evaporate. 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.280 Richard's colleagues often refer to him as Atticus Finch, the 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:02.040 protagonist from Taquilla Mockingbird. In the novel Atticust defends a 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.200 black man falsely accused of rape in the small town 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.080 of may coom, Alabama, during the Great Depression. As is 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.760 the case for many lawyers in the South, the character 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.680 of Atticus Finch served as an influence in Richard's decision 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.720 to become a defense attorney to do the work of 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.120 representing marginalized or seemingly guilty defendants. 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:26.160 In representing both the apparently innocent and the apparently guilty, 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:33.520 our ethical responsibilities to provide the most zealous representation we're 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:38.360 capable of are the same. The scariest thing is to 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:44.520 represent someone that is apparently or obviously innocent and where 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.400 there is a significant lack of proof, in knowing that 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.959 if we have to go to trial and we lose, 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.560 it's basically hard to forget. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.319 I asked Jaffe how the opportunity to represent Rudolph even 0:12:59.360 --> 0:12:59.920 came to him. 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:05.920 Well, I was in the federal courtroom of Judge Lindwood Smith, 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:13.480 an excellent judge, and I was representing, along with my team, 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:19.760 a lawyer charged with witness tampering, and we were arguing 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:26.640 over discovery when suddenly the assistant of Judge Smith came 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.160 up to him and whispered in his ear. He recessed 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:35.360 abruptly and came back, and then we learned that Eric 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:36.760 Rudolph had been arrested. 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.560 Eric Rudolph was staring down a potential death penalty sentence. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.840 At this point, of the fifty people he had defended 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.359 who were facing the death penalty, none had been executed. 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.440 To represent somebody for a federal death penalty crime, the 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:15.200 court is obligated to a point what's called learned counsel, 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.400 and that means someone who is skilled in death penalty, 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.320 federal death penalty work and trained. 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:27.120 Jeffy recalls his friend and colleague, Bruce Gardner, nudging the 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.920 judge as at that time Alabama had only one such 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:31.840 qualified lawyer. 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.840 So we finished the hearing in the case was continued, 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.760 and Bruce walked up to Judge Smith and said, you 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:44.400 don't need to keep looking for another lawyer. The best 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.200 person in the country you could appoint is sitting right 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:53.320 over there, pointing to me. I'm unabashedly against the death penalty. 0:14:53.800 --> 0:15:00.760 The death penalty doesn't work, meaning it's provably not a 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:08.920 deterrent to others. It's also inhumane, super expensive, five times 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:13.080 as expensive to try someone for a death penalty case 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:17.720 then house them for their entire life, even if their teens. 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:22.520 Take me through the first. 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.320 StAst well, the first day is when Judge Smith said 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.400 he was appointing me as the lead lawyer, and he 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:33.120 instructed me to go over and meet with Eric at 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:39.320 the Jefferson County Jail. And his concern was whether Eric 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:44.360 would accept me being Jewish, and he also wondered how 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.200 I would interface with Eric and how I would feel 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:48.720 about it. 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.560 Eric Rudolph is a loud and proud anti Semite, a 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:58.280 Holocaust denier who called the television the electric Jew. Richard 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.720 Jeffey is a Jewish man. I asked him how he 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:02.680 was able to navigate that. 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.880 I went over and met with Eric at the Jefferson 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.720 County Jail. He wasn't in the normal cell with others. 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.960 He had his own block practically, and he was watching 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.480 himself on TV. When I walked in and introduced myself 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.440 and we had a very nice discussion. It wasn't that long, 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.160 less than an hour, and he basically said that was 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.240 a long time ago. I've evolved since then. That was 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:35.240 what I said many years ago, is not how I 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.480 feel and who I am today. And I went back 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.400 and reported that Judge Smith the second day he was here, 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.479 that was the arraignment, and the arraignment's really a formality 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.040 where someone pleads not guilty or guilty. They couldn't plead 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:55.080 guilty if they wanted to. It's a formality in that sense, 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:59.840 but from a legal perspective, the judge gets a formal 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:05.919 not guilty plea and explains the rights of the particular 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:10.160 defendant and the process. There was so much media there 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.000 that I couldn't really get in even though I got 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.480 there early. Neither I nor my team could get in 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.560 the courthouse because it was just that crowded. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.200 Doug Jones was also at the arraignment. 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:25.919 I called the US Marshall said I really want to 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.040 get in that courtroom. So I was able to sit 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:33.600 in the jury box, and you could just from my standpoint, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:35.359 it was a cold. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:36.639 Look. 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.840 There was just something and I've told people since that 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:46.000 time that you just don't see a soul behind those 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.119 dark eyes of his, that he was proud of what 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.760 he did. Do you just know he had a mission. 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.120 He was proud of what he did, and he would 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.000 do it over if he had to. 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.239 I asked Richard Jaffee what his first impressions were of 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:02.000 Eric Rudolph. 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.359 Well, Eric had been in hiding for five and a 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:11.080 half years, so he really hadn't had a meaningful conversation 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:17.000 with anyone, and every single day he was in hiding 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:23.919 was a day that he was solely focused on surviving. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:30.000 So suddenly he's instead of having the ability to watch 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:34.800 the FBI because he had three different camps that he constructed, 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.760 he was now confined in a jail cell, facing the 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:45.760 death penalty. Imagine the culture shock he was experiencing. The 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.880 interesting thing is that when he was arrested, he gave 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:54.440 his real name after he initially didn't. And I had 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.680 the feeling, and based on some of my discussions with him, 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.360 that he was just kind of tired of that life. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.680 I can't imagine what it'd be like trying to survive, 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.800 to sleep there and wake up there and find food 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:17.560 and not injure yourself without medical treatment, and always be 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.240 wondering am I going to get caught? And will I 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:25.040 be killed on site? But I never found Eric to 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:29.200 be remorseful when it came to the subject of abortion, 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:36.000 because he felt that strongly about it that in fact, 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:42.800 to him, it was war, and Eric believed that in 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:47.400 war the rules are different, and that this was an 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:53.120 attack on babies, on people, and that he was called 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:59.200 to take action to do something about it. Obviously, if 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:04.560 everyone un thought that way, we would have no society, 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:09.119 we would have no civilization, we have no existence because 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.480 we'd all be killing each other. But Eric felt that 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.040 strongly about the situation. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:25.560 Both Jaffie and Jones ultimately reached the same conclusion in 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.240 their thinking and in their impressions of Rudolph. They believed 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.080 he was on a mission, one that he felt strongly about, 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.200 and he carried out that mission without remorse. But as 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:41.640 the prosecutor, Doug Jones's singular job would have been to convict, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.280 to paint the portrait of a monster, while as a 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.080 defense attorney, Jaffe's job, in addition to calling the evidence 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.240 into question, was to find the beating heart inside this 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:56.119 human being and present it to the jury. That is, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:00.600 without question, the most effective way to avoid a sentence. 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.919 My focus was to get to know him, not to 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:11.199 challenge him and build up a rapport and a respect 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:17.080 and clearly one hundred percent I did because when there 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.160 was a conflict between the two factions of teams, Eric 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.440 chose me and my team. 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.520 This was an extremely high profile case, but aside from that, 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:32.520 it was only different from other cases by virtue of 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.720 the fact that it was a death penalty case. And 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.040 death penalty cases are notoriously hard to win in any prosecution, 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.600 even if the defendant has essentially been found guilty in 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.760 the court of public opinion. The burden of proof in 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.720 this case required clear and convincing evidence, and it also 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:55.399 required a unanimous verdict. The possibility of a hung jury 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:57.760 was a very real scenario. 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:03.320 So there were different scenarios in play, and as a lawyer, 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.720 you don't reach any conclusions. And I think that's one 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:12.280 of the problems that sometimes law enforcement gets into, is 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:16.960 what we call rush to judgment. The perfect example is 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:21.240 Richard Jewel. So as lawyers, the last thing we wanted 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:25.879 to do was exclude any hypothesis that was reasonable. 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.480 So I went down a federal courthouse along with the 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:37.200 other victims of other bombings. 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.120 At a certain point in the process, victims from each 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.960 of the bombings were brought in to provide personal statements 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:48.480 about the crimes. They included Atlanta radio host Rob Stadler, 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:51.159 who was at the Sandy Springs clinic bombing with his 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:52.080 twin girls. 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:56.440 There was a gentleman who was a first responder, and 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:58.920 he showed me the shrapnel that's still in his leg. 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:02.760 The victims were given the chance to read these statements 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:07.240 to the courtroom and Eric Rudolph directly. Victim statements are 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:10.280 a necessary part of the judicial process to allow the 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.440 victims to describe the impacts of the crimes, which assists 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:17.800 the judge and sentencing. Rob at first was hesitant to 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:20.280 provide one. He was ready to be done with that 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:23.399 chapter of his life. But he was told that nobody 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:25.960 else from the Sandy Springs bombing was willing to give 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:29.280 a victim statement, so he took on that responsibility. 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:34.800 So it was my turn to talk, and I spent 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:38.040 most of the time speaking on behalf of the others 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.640 who were there, the first responders and the federal relations, etc. 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:47.720 And spoke how they did such a great job after 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:52.240 it happened. But I looked at Rudolph and I said, 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:54.639 you know what I'm going to do, Eric, after this, 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:57.280 I'm going to go home. I'm going to pick up 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.560 my girls and we're going to do homework. I go, 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.359 that's a privilege. You're never going to have the privilege 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:09.119 of having your own family, and I don't feel sorry 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:13.280 for you. It was really interesting at the end when 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.840 they shackled him and took him out. That was the 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:21.760 first time that I saw an expression of fear. He 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.359 made his own help. Now he's going to have to 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:24.879 live in it. 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:34.160 I still remember being on the back row. 0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:39.280 Former US Attorney Kent Alexander, the lead law enforcement officer 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:41.560 for the Olympic Park bombing who was no longer on 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:44.320 the case, was also there in the courtroom. 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:47.800 I didn't just sit on the back row, but I 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:50.840 sat on top of the back of the bench because 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.200 I wanted to eyeball Eric Rudolf. I really wanted to 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:56.879 see who this guy was, and he was remarkably unimpressive 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.119 at that point. He was pale as could be. He 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:02.000 was overwakes kept feeding him in the jail in Birmingham. 0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:05.200 He just to me looked like this troll. I kept 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:08.240 expecting to hear something or see something, though I knew 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.040 it's rare that defendants say anything other than not guilty 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:13.879 and you go from there. But for me, it was 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:17.960 important to be there just by way of closure. That 0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:20.239 also was the last time I saw Richard Jewel, who 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:22.880 was there with his wife Dana. I ran into them 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:26.399 right outside the courtroom. Even then, a lot of the 0:25:26.440 --> 0:25:29.880 agents were starting to back away from him as if 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:32.840 he had done something wrong because there was a lot 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:35.600 of bad blood during the process, with his defence team 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:38.680 criticizing the FBI. But I thought it was fitting that. 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:39.480 Richard was there. 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:45.200 He said, I've been waiting a long time for this day, 0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:48.240 such a long time. He had to sit in a 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:51.359 remote room with his wife to watch everything on video. 0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:54.480 His wife told me that she was happy because she 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:56.760 really thinks he would have just jumped over the bench 0:25:56.800 --> 0:25:59.840 and attacked the guy, because for him'd say it was 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:04.640 a life altering experience. This bombing would be unbelievable understatement. 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:07.200 It ultimately took a lot of years off his life 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.040 because he died at age forty four of a heart attack. 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:15.600 Emily Lyons, the nurse who bore the full force of 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:18.919 the bombing at the Alabama abortion clinic, also attended some 0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:21.359 of the proceedings and had the chance to get a 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:25.520 look at Rudolph beforehand outside the courtroom. 0:26:25.840 --> 0:26:29.400 The closest I ever got to him. We were in Huntsville, 0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:31.880 and we were standing in a room with a door 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.000 that had two pieces of glass up at the top, 0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:37.560 like a swing door. And they brought him back through 0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:40.679 the hallway. And when he passed in from those windows, 0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:44.800 he turned and looked at me. There was no expression, nothing, 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:50.080 It was just blackness avoid in his eyes. He didn't care, 0:26:50.160 --> 0:26:52.520 He didn't I don't think he knew who I was, 0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:55.840 but sure he could just tell. 0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:06.560