WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: Who Wants To Live Forever? 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to tex Stuff, a production from my Heart Radio. 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.680 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.520 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:21.200 and how the Tech Area. It's time for a tech 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.959 Stuff Classic episode. This episode originally published back on July 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:31.040 two thousand fifteen. It is titled Who Wants to Live Forever? 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.680 It's really about digital immortality, and the great Josh Clark 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.000 of Stuff you Should Know joins the show on this episode. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.239 Hope you enjoy. I have a feeling the title of 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.680 this episode will be who Wants to Live Forever? Because 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.640 I'm a big fan of Queen. Yeah, who wants to 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.440 Live Forever? That came from the soundtrack to the hit 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:57.240 film Highlander. Oh cult classic? Did Queen do the whole 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:02.560 sound check? They did Highlander? And Flash Gordon? They did. 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:04.800 I did not know Highlander and I saw Highlander the 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.080 other day and I was like, does not hold up? No, 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:09.400 the movie is one of those that I wish we 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.280 could just wipe from history and redo because the concept 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:14.959 is amazing. Yeah, but that's not what we're gonna talk about. 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:19.720 Although there are immortals in Highlander, Yeah, yeah, there are, Yeah, 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.240 I mean that's the that's the connection, right, I guess so, 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.720 or Queen your love of Queen in Queen doing the 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:31.440 Highlanders sound chracktality. Yeah, it's ultimately it all goes back 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:36.319 to uh tesla. No, we're gonna be talking about digital immortality, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:43.320 this concept of using technology to extend our lifespans indefinitely. Yeah, 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:48.520 to immortality, Yeah, to the point where essentially until the 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.200 sun burns out right and the great heat death of 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.600 the universe. Yeah, I mean yeah, because you could in theory, 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:59.160 if you were had digital immortality, there's nothing stopping you 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:03.040 from hopping on a spaceship and high tailing it somewhere else, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.440 you know, or being transmitted it near the speed of light. Yep. Yeah, 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.919 you could be beamed from one point to another and 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.560 sure if you I wonder what that experience would be like. Well, 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.520 maybe that it's that's the future of space travel. Physical 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.919 space travel is as digital beings rather than maybe that's 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.600 the while we keep banging up against is the physical limitations, 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.360 and then that will finally unbridle us and allow us 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:32.320 to really do like interstellar travel, intergalactic travel, though presumably 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.040 you would have to have something you're beaming into Well 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.560 you're just purely digital, then you have to have something 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.800 to house that information. I mean, I guess you could 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:45.080 just be literally just information beaming around, but I don't 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.240 know how. I wonder what that experience would be, like 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.040 I wondered to be like going to sleep. Think about 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:54.320 a laser. The laser doesn't have any sort of infrastructure, 0:02:54.880 --> 0:03:00.519 just beaming and you're transmitting light information in one place 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.840 to another at the speed of light. Right. Well, what 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.840 if we figured out a way to digitize ourselves, as 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.120 we'll talk about um, and we were able to beam 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.720 ourselves in much the same way that a laser beams light. Right, 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.560 But the question is then, because if we are digitizing ourselves, 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.480 we're usually talking about that with the the understanding that 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:25.079 that digital information rests on top of some physical architecture. Right, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.200 just as software needs hardware to run off of, Right, 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.560 you need like fiber optics. Now, yeah, I'm saying, what 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:32.960 if you remove that, we figure out a way to 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:34.880 remove it, then there's no Leyeah. If you can get 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.360 to a point where we become pure information and there 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.840 is no need for physical infrastructure beneath that, then we're golden. 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.320 There's no limit. Then I guess we would need some 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:46.840 sort of receptacle to beam into even on the end, 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.960 even if we don't have something connecting the two points. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:55.640 That's what I was kind of if you're just gonna 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.320 send someone ahead, like, all right, Bill, it's your job 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.480 to set up all these these EPU talent. Bill, do 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.000 not let us down. Make sure they're all plugged in, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.400 and please use one of those uninterrupted power supplies because 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.440 if if there's a blackout, we don't want you know, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.680 we lost Lucy, and then make it over. Please don't 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.960 smoke while you're setting them up, Bill, because we could 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.239 smell it last time. It's dunk up the whole place 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.960 right right. So to get down to what we're actually 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.880 talking about, you probably picked up on this. The idea 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:29.760 of digital immortality largely revolves around this concept of somehow 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:36.880 transferring human consciousness and experience into a digital format. Usually 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.120 the way we describe it as uploading your brain into 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.400 a computer. That's kind of the easiest way to explain it, 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.560 and there are a lot of really smart people who 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.440 have been talking about this possibility beyond saying it's hypothetical, 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.440 saying it will be possible or it will happen. A 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:56.719 lot of people strut around like they're just cock of 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.320 the walk, saying it's going to happen, and some sometimes 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.159 they even put like DAYTI on things like this, Oh 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.440 yeh know the guy we got to talk about to 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.400 be at least Ray Kurts Watch Kurtzwile Uh famous for 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:13.880 his futurism predictions, including the idea that we will reach 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.279 what is called the singularity. There's the point at which 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.800 technology is evolving so quickly that there is no meaningful 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.120 way to describe the present because it's changing that fast 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.920 and in the way I always think about singularities. Usually 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.640 it's also the moment where UM one of two things 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.240 has just happened. Either UM in AI has awakened and 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:42.240 become conscious right and therefore we it is now the 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.160 master of the universe as far as we're concerned, or 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:51.840 we it's the moment we merge biology merges with technology 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:57.239 at a point where we're able to UM remove ourselves 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.719 from the limitations of evolution and chart our own course 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.280 from that point on. Yeah, that's that's pretty accurate. I 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.800 would argue that there's also, uh, there's the possibility of 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:12.120 developing UM technology that allows us to genetically alter ourselves 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.120 without having to directly incorporate like computers or electronics into 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.000 our systems. That also can be It's transhumanism, is what 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.560 we're talking about here. We're like right there. Yeah, we're 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:26.520 on a kind of happening, like very crudely, but it's 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.360 we're like right there. As far as that last definition, yeah, yeah, 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.720 we're there. Well, even with the incorporation of technology, we're 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.720 getting there. You look at things like cochlear implants, and 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:41.200 while this is this technology is specifically meant to give 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.760 people who have either lost or never developed a particular 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:51.160 uh sense or maybe some other form of neurological process, 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.479 uh you know right now, it's meant to address that. 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.680 In the future, it could be meant to augment, not 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:02.400 just to to repair down image or to address a 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.360 loss of something. Right, Like, the defining characteristic of trans 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:13.840 humanism is that, um, you don't want a blade prosthetic 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:19.480 leg because the one you were born with was removed. 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.800 You want to blade prosthetic leg because you want to 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.560 be able to run faster. Right, It's not to it's 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.240 not to make up for a loss, it's to further. 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.560 It's to go to the next step exactly. So, uh, this, 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:37.240 this singularity idea is very closely related to digital immortality, 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.880 and largely because of Ray Kurtzwild, because, as it turns out, 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.160 I think it's fair to say Ray Kurtzwild has an 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.560 issue with the concept of mortality. Yeah. I was wondering, like, 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.400 I don't know that much about Kurtzwild. I mean, I'm 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.760 slightly familiar, but you clearly know a lot more about 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:54.840 him than I do. And I was wondering if he 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.840 is a like a fretful fannie, Like, does he constantly 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.880 worry about misstepping and dying, you know, people dying really weird, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.640 random mundane ways every day. Yeah, and I wonder if 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.360 he just lives in literal mortal fear of that. Well, 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:17.280 he he is certainly taking great precautions to extend his 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.080 life because he does believe firmly that we will reach 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:25.040 this point in which technology will allow us to extend 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.120 our lifespans indefinitely within his lifetime if he takes care 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.360 of himself. So he he is determined, he doesn't. I mean, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.920 you would kind of feel like a like a dufus 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.880 if you, you know, if you were capable of feeling 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:43.040 if you died the day before they invented digital immortality. Right, 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.600 it's the like the last guy to die in a war, 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.280 right after like right before the ceasefires. Right, Yeah, there's 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.520 a there's a great um. Have you ever seen there's 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.200 a British sketch comedy show called that Mitchell and Webb. 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.320 Look you've told me about it though, Yeah, it's it's 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.200 a two comedians, uh, David Mitchell and Robert Webb who 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.400 do this series, And one of the ones they they 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:07.960 have is it's just supposed to be off the cuff 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.840 conversation between the two, so it's not in the context 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.920 of a sketch so basically like what we're doing, kind 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.640 of what we're doing now, except it's obviously scripted and 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.160 ours is not. But in that case, they have a 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.120 conversation where David Mitchell is very upset with the thought 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.679 that his generation is going to be the last generation 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:29.520 to die, and he is spiteful of the of the 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.240 next generation. He's mad at them for being able to 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.960 live forever while he has to die. Webb is like, 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.880 you could just be happy for them. There's no same 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:41.480 sort of thing I think with Kurt Swile is that 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.720 he's um taking great pains to take care of himself. 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:50.080 He's advocate for a healthy diet and exercise, which is fantastic. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.359 He takes something like a hundred and fifty dietary supplements. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:55.720 I'm going to have to correct you. And this is 0:09:55.920 --> 0:10:00.320 from the article that you wrote. Yeah two, or if 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.880 the advice she is constantly taking pill you know. Yeah, 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.560 So that's uh. And and there there are plenty of 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.520 studies that have suggested that unless you are suffering a 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:16.080 deficiency of some sort, these supplements are not actually helpful. Well, um, 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:22.040 it's kind of like um, vitamin A. I believe vitamin 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.120 a UH is known to help you see better. Pretty sure, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.840 it's vitamin a UM. And it's been shown that if 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:33.000 you're especially like night vision is a little deficient, that 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.080 if you eat some carrots your night vision will improve. 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.080 So carrots do help you, But if it's already up 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.160 to whatever your baseline night vision level is, you can't 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.400 all the carrots in the world and it's not going 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:46.760 to help it. As a matter of fact, you will 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:48.719 turn rage. My wife turned a little orange because she 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.120 like carrots so much when she was a kid. So 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.600 but she couldn't see any better beyond her baseline night 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.840 vision level. And so I think it's the same thing 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.120 as what you're saying. The same thing with vitamin C. Right, 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.000 once you hit a certain level of vitamin C, anything 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:03.720 beyond that you're such as just going to pee away. 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.079 And in fact, vitamins can become toxic. Much of anything 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.079 is is toxic to the human body because it seeks homeostasis. Right, 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.480 So I'm wondering if kurts, Well, surely he's smart enough 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.360 to know, like, maybe I should cut this one out, 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.160 or maybe I'm taking too much of this. Well, it's 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.440 also possible that the reported number of supplements that he 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.920 takes has been you know, exaggerated, as it's been reported 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.560 over and over again. I am personally a little skeptical 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.079 that he takes that many, But at any rate, the 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.640 whole point is that he wants to make certain to 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.120 live long enough to see the day when his prediction 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:44.520 comes true, that that we will have the technological ability 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:49.960 to port a person's mind into some kind of electronic construct. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.000 We'll be back with more of this classic episode of 0:11:53.000 --> 0:12:03.320 tech stuff after this quick break. I have, just while 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:08.319 you were speaking, pulled out my calculator and Ray Kurtzwell 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.800 takes a pill every five point seven six minutes a day, 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.720 assuming he stays up all twenty four hours in a day, 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.480 assuming again that that number is in fact accurate, that 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.160 the number of supplements. Not that I completely trust your math. 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.760 Let's talk a little bit about some of the concepts 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.560 here about how this could in theory happen. Now, obviously, 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.280 we are not at the point where we can create 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.920 any kind of hardware and or software that would allow 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:44.760 us to uh to migrate and intelligence from our meaty brains, right, 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.360 And that's a huge problem what you just said, We're 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:53.760 we are dealing in something called software hardware when what 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.040 the substrate that our our brains and consciousness exists on 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.920 is what you would term wetware. Yeah, by all logical material. Yeah, 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:06.800 and where it's not necessarily analogous to a computer. Even 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:08.680 though people tend to think of the brain is such, 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.080 that doesn't mean that it is the same thing. That's 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.400 absolutely correct. I mean, let's let's take memory for an example. 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.240 Memory is a great way to illustrate the difference between 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.840 a computer system and the brain. All right, So in 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.319 a computer system, you end up designating a certain space 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:31.280 on some medium like on magnetic tape or in certain 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.960 you know, it all depends on whatever the form is 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:36.319 that you're saving it too, But at any rate, it 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.720 all ends up being zeros and ones, and it is unaltered. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.520 If you call up a file and you know you 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.320 haven't done anything to it since the last time you 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.719 looked at it's going to be exactly the same there, 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.800 unless there's some sort of corruption in the file or 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.400 you have made changes to it and then saved it again. 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.319 You're not you know, it's gonna be the same experience 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:02.240 every time. Human memory totally different a memory is, and 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:06.040 we only sort of understand memory. Uh, we don't have 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:11.000 a full grasp on how memory works. But based upon 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.280 what we do know, when you experience something, your brain 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.800 creates a certain neural pathway in response to the stimuli 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.280 you are experiencing. So, for example, right here in this 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:26.840 room my brain is your hair. The heat in this room, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.000 the light in this room, little things, and I'm not 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.720 noticing everything that's hair look pretty good, isn't it again? 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.440 Start contrast with all the rest of the experiences is 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:41.920 amazing hair. So the these these pathways are forming in 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:46.440 my brain later on, assuming that I have converted this 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.760 particular experience to long term memory, which is a pretty 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.400 big assumption. Honestly, I can't remember what a podcast that 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.480 about two weeks ago. Yeah, I think my hair is 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.160 going to make it into your long term memory. But 0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.560 the more you say it, the more likely it's gonna 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.200 happen when when I think back on it, my brain 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:08.080 will reconstruct that same pathway. So the memory is essentially 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:13.160 representative and the physical relationship between the various synapses that 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.040 light up when I have this experience. Right, So there 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:22.120 is a physical pathway that is retraced when you recall yeah, right, Yeah, 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.600 But it's not like your memory of how great my 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.320 hair looks is sitting in one little spot of your 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.640 brain like it would be on a computer's magnetic tape. 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.880 It's distributed, and it's faulty because when I remember the 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:42.080 process of remembering, sometimes that that pathway doesn't form exactly 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.360 the way it did, and sometimes it adds new stuff exactly, 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.120 I might fill in some gaps. Like imagine if you 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.960 opened a power point presentation that you've made and uh, 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.960 there are a few slides missing, but then there's some 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.840 new stuff and maybe it was a little bit better 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.080 than before. But you haven't done anything. I don't remember 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.200 this transition it all right, we'll go with it. Just 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.000 the very active retrieving it from your computer's memory and 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.240 opening it again changes it. Right. That doesn't happen in 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.800 a computer, but it doesn't in human memories, right, right, exactly. 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.800 That is exactly what I'm saying. And the reason why 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.080 I say it is that that's a problem because if 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.840 we are ever to move from wetware in center brains 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.360 to hardware and software in the digital realm, unless we 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:28.400 factor that in somehow, like we create an algorithm that 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:34.560 mimics the experience of remembering something, the experience is going 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.400 to be fundamentally different. The experience of remembering will be 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.800 totally different. I mean, one of the reasons why I 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:46.880 very much argue against eyewitness testimony for things, especially for 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.040 crimes that might have happened a long time in the past, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.720 is that our memories are faulty. Now, if we were 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.080 in this other experience where we had moved to hardware 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.400 and software and our memories were more analogous to computer memory, 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.760 that would not be an issue. I witness that would 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.800 be so. But that's a that'sn't just one illustration of 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.119 how this is a tricky thing. It is tricky, and 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.040 you say that, you know, comparatively speaking, it sounded like 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.080 your take on it was that human memory is faulty 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.600 compared to computer memory. I I would positive that there's 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.359 also another way to look at it, that um, human 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:27.320 memory is much more robust and rich than computer memory, 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.280 because think about it, when you say, smell something for 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.399 the first time, and then you smell it again and again, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.400 that that memory of what something smells like is going 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.880 to become more detailed. There's going to be more to it, 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.400 it will become more refined, and it will be totally 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.879 different from that first sent memory that you created of 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:50.679 whatever it was you smelled. And so I would pose 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.600 it again. Sorry to use that word twice, but it 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.840 makes me sound pretty smart when I does um that 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.639 that additional adding new material, adding new stuff to it 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.359 when you recall things or when you experience something. The 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.360 ability to make your memory more robust and more rich 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.040 and and to be able to refine it just through recall, 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.560 to me, is superior to just straight Here's the information 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.760 that a computer will give you, and it should be 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.639 exactly what you have before. And also with memories, we 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.960 can associate stuff that previously was not connected in our brains, 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.160 whereas with computers, the way you do that as through 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.439 meta data. You tag stuff. Right, You're like, okay, well 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.760 let's tag this piece of information with all the metadata 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.679 we can think of that that that describes what this 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:41.560 information is really about. And then if I want to 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.439 associate things, I have to look for similar tags like 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.760 but but in my brain it doesn't automatically, and it 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.000 does it in ways that you cannot necessarily anticipate, which 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.720 can lead to things like innovation, creativity. Yes, precisely, and 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.359 you also kind of hinted at something that's the big 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.840 problem they seeing the idea of uploading ourselves onto the 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:09.320 internet strick It is that with with memory, we can 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.960 figure out memory will will eventually figure out how human 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:17.560 memory works exactly. And that's what There's a philosopher called 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.159 David Chalmers. That's what he's pointed out as the easy 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.480 problem of consciousness. We understand, we're going to understand how 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.600 the mind functions. Sometime down the road, we will figure 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.920 that out. There's a hard problem is what what Chalmers 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:38.119 has also pointed out in figuring out how phenomenal experience, 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:44.400 our experience of reality is produced from those processes. That 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.399 that is the big issue that is facing us trying 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.919 to upload ourselves onto the Internet. It's like when you 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:55.120 talked about meta. The computer is not writing meta itself. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.240 It might be able to simulate memory retrieval in its 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.480 own way, but it's not writing its own tags. It's 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.800 not making these connections. It takes a human consciousness to 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:06.920 do that. And not only do we not know how 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.000 to make a computer simulate that, we don't even know 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.280 how we do that. We may never know. There's a 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.960 lot of philosophers out there like we may never figure 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.520 out the hard problem of consciousness. We've got more to 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.240 say in this classic episode of tech stuff after these 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:34.280 quick messages. Neuroscientists would say that clearly the mind which 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.719 is what we could probably you know, use as an 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.119 umbrella term for things like consciousness and experience, like intelligence 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.160 and the kind of stuff that that emerges from the 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:47.560 physical construct of the brain, because you can you can 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.440 observe changes to the mind when someone suffers an illness 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.520 or injury that damages the brain. And therefore it stands 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.760 to reason that the mind in fact, is a product 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.040 of the brain. So if you could figure out how 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.640 to simulate a brain to a significant level of sophistication, 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:11.240 hypothetically you could have intelligence emerge naturally from that simulation, hypothetically, 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.000 hypothe because we can't do it yet. The best we 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.840 can do right now is to simulate a few thousand neurons. 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.800 But there are you know, we're talking about billions of 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.000 neurons and synapsis in the human brain. Yeah, from what 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.679 I saw, the low but average estimate is something like 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:32.879 eight six billion normal human brain. I'm sorry, not synapthis neurons, neuron, 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:37.560 it's trillions of synantha, right, So it's it's incredibly complicated, 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.560 and in fact, there's some people who suggest that it 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.280 may be to truly simulate a human brain, you may 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:45.359 have to go down to the molecular level, at which 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.959 point the computational requirements for simulating that brain are going 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.040 to be so vast as to be impractical or impossible 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:54.560 to achieve. Well, you mentioned the Blue Brain Project in 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.159 this article that you wrote, um, and I was just 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.679 kind of skimming their website and they mentioned that in 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:05.520 their simulations it requires about a laptops worth of computing power. 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.280 They didn't say what kind of RAM or hard drive 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.000 for storage or anything it had. They just used a 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.560 laptops words, you can kind of let your imagination from 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.280 on with it, but that that was required just for 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.480 one individual neuron to power. Yea, so we're talking about 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:26.359 U billion laptops, which is that's you know, should be 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:32.040 great news for the exactly any hardware manufacturers out there. Um, 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.439 there are actually quite a few different uh projects out 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.399 there that are attempting to simulate brains for one reason 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:41.920 or another, not necessarily so that we can pourt consciousness 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:45.800 to them, but also to just study things like, uh, 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.160 you know, how our brains work, how we might be 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:53.960 able to treat brain damage or illnesses that that damage 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:57.800 the brain, that how how certain medications might react to 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:01.040 our brains. Building these very common plex simulation so some 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:04.200 of them. M I. T has a course on the 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:09.240 emergent science of connect tomics. I've seen that lately too. 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:15.440 It sounds so full of bs, but apparently it's it's 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.399 a real deal, and and once you look into it 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:22.040 it makes total sense. Just the terrible name. Connectomics is 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.680 all about the connections that happen within the brain and yeah, 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:28.280 it does. Connectomics sounds like it's some sort of weird 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:32.560 economics course or like maybe an l Around Hubbard book. Yeah, 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:38.119 like dineticsnets part two connectomics. Yeah. So that's an example. 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:41.480 There's the US Brain project, there's an EU Brain project, 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:46.720 there's the Google project. Yes, and there's the Google Brain project. 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:52.600 They hired Ray Kurtzwile. Yeah, he's their chief engineer, director 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:56.400 of engineering. Yeah, for for specifically for the Google Brain project. 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.480 They mean, clearly Google has just put their cars in 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:02.760 the table. They're like, we're putting some serious resources behind 0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:06.919 figuring out how to get people on to digital consciousness. Right. 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:10.199 It's it's one thing to think about this kind of 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:15.879 you know, armchair computer scientists neuroscientists sort of approach, but 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.760 they're really putting actual money towards research and development on 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:24.119 this stuff, including hiring another guy named Jeff Hinton, who 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:27.920 is a British computer scientist who who specializes in neural networks. 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.359 So they're looking at using neural networks for lots of stuff, 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.919