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Speaker 1: This episode of Atlanta Monster contains explicit language. Listener discretion

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Speaker 1: is advised.

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Speaker 2: I'm in a recording studio and I'm recording a song

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Speaker 2: in my phone rings. It's Wayne Williams. Everybody in his

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Speaker 2: studio is like everyone with step.

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Speaker 3: From that point forward? What transpired?

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Speaker 4: What did Wayne and say?

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Speaker 3: What was developing after that?

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the real world, neo.

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Speaker 2: So you know Wayne Williams absolutely describe Wayne to me?

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Speaker 4: What's he like?

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Speaker 2: Brilliant asshole, very intelligent asshole. That's the best way I

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Speaker 2: could put it. And I don't mean it in a

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Speaker 2: bad way because I'm an asshole at times, you know.

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Speaker 2: But he's the He's the type of person that you

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Speaker 2: have to be very strong to deal with him because

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Speaker 2: mentally he could just run over the average person.

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Speaker 5: And Atlanta another pond.

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Speaker 4: It was discovered through the twenty third at the police

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Speaker 4: Time Forts headquarters.

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Speaker 6: There are twenty seven faces on the wall twenty sixth

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Speaker 6: murder one missing.

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Speaker 4: We do not know the person or persons that are responsible. Therefore,

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Speaker 4: we do not have the money.

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Speaker 5: From Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 3: In House too works in Atlanta.

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Speaker 7: Like eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently wasn't sexy.

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Speaker 8: Exert Atlanta is unlikely to catch the killer unless he

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Speaker 8: keeps on killing.

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Speaker 5: This is Atlanta monster.

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Speaker 2: The average person doesn't have the mental acumen to be

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Speaker 2: able to hold conversations with this guy. I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: about the asshole part. There have been multiple conversations that

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Speaker 2: me and him have had that end up in me,

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Speaker 2: you know, basically having to curse him out and tell him, Look, dude,

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Speaker 2: you gotta shut the fuck up and let me do

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Speaker 2: what I know how to do. You've been in prison

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Speaker 2: for over thirty years and you don't understand how the

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Speaker 2: world is operating. Right now, you understand and you can't

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Speaker 2: go under the premise and guys of how things were operating.

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Speaker 3: Before you left the real world.

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Speaker 2: So shut the fuck up and let me do what

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Speaker 2: I do. And absolutely absolutely if you're not strong, he

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Speaker 2: will have you doing some shit that maybe you don't

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Speaker 2: want to do. It's been a roller coaster ride. It's

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Speaker 2: been a roller coaster ride for the simple fact that

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with a microcosm of so many different emotions

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Speaker 2: and you're dealing with such a extreme personality. You're dealing

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Speaker 2: with the guy who was supposed to be la Red.

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Speaker 2: You understand, Wayne Williams started a radio station when he

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Speaker 2: was fifteen years old and it was successful. His family

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Speaker 2: was educators and his dad was a college professor. He

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Speaker 2: knew the people in the affluent circles of the city

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Speaker 2: of Atlanta. You imagine somebody like myself who has a

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Speaker 2: very strong personality. Now I meet this guy thirty five

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Speaker 2: years removed from everything that is transpired and all of

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Speaker 2: the psychological damage and everything else that he's had to

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Speaker 2: and do it. So we bump hes a lot, you know,

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Speaker 2: but you have to think it's a guy who had

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Speaker 2: all his promise in was the only child, and it's

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Speaker 2: been in prison and has had to watch his mom

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Speaker 2: with away and die, watch his dad with away and die.

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Speaker 1: When you first talked to Wayne, what did he tell

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Speaker 1: you in your first conversation?

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Speaker 3: What was he saying to you?

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Speaker 2: He started doing the background on me. He found out

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Speaker 2: what I had already been doing as far as community

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Speaker 2: activism and you know, educating people in the black community.

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Speaker 4: So when we first.

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Speaker 2: Talked, he wanted me to know that he was impressed

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Speaker 2: with what he had already.

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Speaker 9: Learned about me.

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Speaker 2: So, because he learned all of these things about me,

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Speaker 2: he said he thought I was the perfect person to

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Speaker 2: put together a documentary piece.

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Speaker 4: Because I was aware of.

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Speaker 2: Things that publicly most Americans just don't think it's possible

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Speaker 2: or would never believe to cover up by both the

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Speaker 2: GBI and FBI, and how they played such a hand

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Speaker 2: in this. Because of course, whenever you get involved with

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Speaker 2: something like this, it's always going to be a certain

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Speaker 2: level of fear that will always be looming.

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Speaker 1: What do you think Wayne cares about most as a person?

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Speaker 2: I think from what I know about him now, and

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Speaker 2: this is this is a fault of his very selfless

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Speaker 2: human being, selfless so much so that he hurts himself.

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Speaker 2: He's more concerned with helping this guy who's a good

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Speaker 2: This is a good kid.

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Speaker 4: He's not supposed to be here, right, Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And the thing of it is is that, dude, if

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Speaker 2: you get out of prison and we prove what we

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Speaker 2: can potentially prove, you're gonna be able to help a

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Speaker 2: lot a lot of people that are in this kid's situation.

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Speaker 1: You see, Wayne cares more about other people than he

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Speaker 1: does themselves.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm the same way. So I understand it.

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Speaker 4: When you live in this.

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Speaker 2: World and you meet Morpheus, so to speak, and you

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Speaker 2: make a decision to take the red pill, and you

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Speaker 2: see the injustices, and you see the things that we

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Speaker 2: see in this world that we just.

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Speaker 4: Know are not right.

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Speaker 2: But then you have an understanding of it from my perspective.

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Speaker 2: A Wayne's perspective always has to be a patsy, And

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Speaker 2: usually the person who's the patsy, they have some kind

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Speaker 2: of connection, just as Lee Harvey Oswald did to the

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Speaker 2: CIA or to some sort of governmental agency.

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Speaker 1: Right where do you draw the line between conspiracy theories?

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Speaker 2: In fact, I don't even consider the concept of what

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Speaker 2: people say conspiracy theory is a real thing, because is

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Speaker 2: it a conspiracy theory or were the facts or what

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Speaker 2: was presented to the public alter to make it seem

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Speaker 2: a certain way. I know the truth, You know, Wayne

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Speaker 2: knows the truth. The problem is we live in a

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Speaker 2: world in which people have been programmed not to ask questions.

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Speaker 5: Dwayne maybe right about this.

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Speaker 1: There seems to be a lot of lingering doubt when

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Speaker 1: it comes to Wayne William's guilt, but it's not exactly

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Speaker 1: widely discussed. For example, I'd heard varying opinions of Wayne's

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Speaker 1: physical capacity to kill and disposed of Nathaniel Cater, the

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Speaker 1: twenty seven year old, was one of the few adult

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Speaker 1: victims of the Atlanta child murders.

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Speaker 5: I asked Dwayne what he thought about that.

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Speaker 2: The murder of Nathaniel Cater and it being blamed on

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Speaker 2: Wayne Williams. It's no way it could have happened at all.

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Speaker 2: In the court case, Wayne's car never stop on the bridge.

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Speaker 2: So a six one, one hundred and eighty pound man

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Speaker 2: was thrown from a moving car over a barrier that's

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Speaker 2: about five feet high. How he man can't do that?

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Speaker 2: This guy six y' one, How is he gonna fit

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Speaker 2: out of a window of a car. Nathaniel Cater was

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Speaker 2: a badass. Nathaniel Cater was known in the streets of

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Speaker 2: Atlanta to be able to beat up two guys at

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Speaker 2: one time, three guys at one time. So little five

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Speaker 2: to seven Wayne Williams, little fat five to seven Wayne

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Speaker 2: Williams killed this guy. No, there's no way. So how

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Speaker 2: now does Wayne take a six to one, one hundred

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Speaker 2: and eighty pound man with one arm.

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Speaker 3: That's the most disgusting lie ever.

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Speaker 5: Dwayne says.

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Speaker 1: Cater was six to one, one hundred and eighty pounds,

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Speaker 1: but according to court documents, he was actually five to eleven,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and forty six pounds. Nathaniel Cater was one

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Speaker 1: of the two adult victims that Wayne was actually convicted

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Speaker 1: of murdering. The other was twenty one year old Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Ray Payne. Payne lived on Magnolia Street, about a block

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Speaker 1: from the home of Patrick Boltazar.

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Speaker 2: Jimmy Ray Payne was a guy who was in the

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Speaker 2: streets who supposedly Wayne killed. On the autopsy report on

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Speaker 2: Calls of death, initially it said that it was undetermined.

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Speaker 2: Then it was changed to say asphyxiation, which basically means

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Speaker 2: he was strangled.

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Speaker 4: I have the actual picture.

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Speaker 5: I checked this out. Dwayne was right.

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Speaker 1: Records show that Jimmy Ray Pain's cause of death was

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Speaker 1: originally marked as undetermined rather than homicide on the medical

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Speaker 1: report on June sixteenth, nineteen eighty one. However, on August sixth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, through a short was redone and Pain's

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Speaker 1: cause of death was changed to homicide. News covers of

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Speaker 1: Wayne Williams's trial shows that the medical examiner could only

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Speaker 1: say with certainty that Paine's death was a result of

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Speaker 1: undetermined asphyxia.

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Speaker 10: Officials from the Fulton County Medical Examiner's office spent more

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Speaker 10: than six hours last night and today examining Jimmy Paine's body.

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Speaker 1: There are multiple means of asphyxiation, and the medical examiner

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Speaker 1: couldn't be sure of the exact mechanism.

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Speaker 11: Any external marks at all around the neck, no extended

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Speaker 11: locks out on the neck.

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Speaker 10: There is there any evidence of sexual molestation.

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Speaker 7: No evidence of sexual molistation.

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Speaker 10: Doctor Zaki says there is still a slight chance Pain drowned.

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Speaker 10: He estimates the twenty one year old died very soon

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Speaker 10: after he disappeared last Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: When the medical examiner was questioned by Wayne's attorney, he

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Speaker 1: admitted changing the cause of death to homicide. He also

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Speaker 1: went on to say that he couldn't totally exclude drowning,

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Speaker 1: but there should have been clearer evidence than Pain's lungs.

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Speaker 3: So is there any doubt in your mind that Wayne

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Speaker 3: Williams did these murders?

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Speaker 2: Is no doubt in my mind, unequivocally, he didn't murder anyone, unequivally,

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Speaker 2: without a doubt. He didn't murder anymore, absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: Where does that firm belief come from?

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Speaker 2: Well, for one, for me examining you know, the cases

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Speaker 2: and learning what I've learned, you know, researching what I

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Speaker 2: was going to need to research just to do the documentary.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: And along the way it went from hey man, nobody

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Speaker 2: is going to be able to speak up for me

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Speaker 2: like you.

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Speaker 3: So does Wayne want to get out of jail.

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Speaker 2: He wants to get out of prison, but he also

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Speaker 2: wants justice for the families more than anything else. We

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Speaker 2: consider him the thirtieth victim.

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Speaker 3: Does Wayne consider himself a victim?

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Speaker 2: He doesn't, but I do.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there is a killer or killers out

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Speaker 1: there responsible for some of these murders that have never

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Speaker 1: been apprehended.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I know that there is. That's a fact, Jack,

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Speaker 2: That is an absolute fact.

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Speaker 1: Dwayne told me he wasn't the only one who believed

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Speaker 1: in Wayne's innocence. In fact, there were two reputable sources

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Speaker 1: public figures. One was named Sidney Dorsey and the other

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Speaker 1: was Lewis Graham, who worked as detectives on Wayne's case

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Speaker 1: back in the early eighties. Graham even tried to reopen

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Speaker 1: the case into cab County back in two thousand and five.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things we hope to be able

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Speaker 2: to do is to get the actual notes from Lewis

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Speaker 2: Graham and Lewis Graham and Sidney Dorsey were pretty close.

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Speaker 2: Both of these guys were detectives for Atlanta Police Department.

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Speaker 2: Sidney ended up being the sheriff for the Cab County.

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Speaker 2: I think what he was really trying to do is

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Speaker 2: he was trying to solve the murders. Initially, he found out,

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Speaker 2: for one, that there were multiple people that were doing

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Speaker 2: the murders. They were prepared to make arrests.

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Speaker 3: Did he find any evidence that would Oh?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely absolutely. I mean Sidney Dorsey is.

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Speaker 4: The key to all of this.

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Speaker 2: If you get a interview with Sidney Dorsey, he has

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Speaker 2: all of the intimate knowledge as far as the police work.

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Speaker 3: Where is he now.

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Speaker 2: He's in Reesville State Prison.

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Speaker 3: During a life sentence.

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Speaker 1: Sidney Dorsey was the first African American sheriff of Dekap

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Speaker 1: County in Atlanta from nineteen ninety six to two thousand.

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Speaker 1: When he ran for reelection in two thousand, he was

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Speaker 1: defeated by Derwin Brown. Sidney Dorsey then arranged for the

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Speaker 1: assassination of his opponent by a deputy. Derwin Brown was

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Speaker 1: then murdered and Sidney Dorsey was sentenced to life without parole.

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Speaker 1: Per Dwayne's recommendation, we looked into Sidney Dorsey's involvement in.

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Speaker 5: Reopening Wayne's case.

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Speaker 1: Over the years, he's been quoted by news sources, including

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta Journal Constitution, advocating for Wayne's innocence.

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Speaker 5: So we decided to write Sidney Dorsey a letter in prison.

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Speaker 5: We haven't heard back yet.

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Speaker 1: After meeting Dwayne Hendrix, I started looking for more people

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Speaker 1: who knew Wayne Williams before he went to prison, before

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Speaker 1: Dwayne even met him.

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Speaker 5: It was hard.

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Speaker 1: It's been a very long time and Wayne didn't seem

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Speaker 1: to have tons of close living friends and family. But

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Speaker 1: after weeks of searching, I eventually found someone. His name

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Speaker 1: was Tyrone Brooks, a civil rights advocate, a disciple of

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Speaker 1: doctor Martin Luther King Junior, and Reverend Joseah Williams. Tyrone

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Speaker 1: agreed to meet with me.

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Speaker 7: I know Wayne, I met him when he was in

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Speaker 7: high school, and he invited me to his home of

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Speaker 7: on Penelope off Anderson Avenue in northwest Atlanta to do

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Speaker 7: a live radio show. I get a phone call from

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Speaker 7: Wayne Williams. He says, my name is Wayne Williams. I'm

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Speaker 7: a high school student. I have a radio show. I

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Speaker 7: like for you to pay on my show. Said where's

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Speaker 7: your show? He said, over here on Penelope Drive off

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Speaker 7: of Anderson Avenue. I said, I'm familiar with that area,

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Speaker 7: so I went over and sure enough, he's got a

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Speaker 7: FCC license and he's broadcasting. He's got a tower down

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Speaker 7: the street. He got a radio tower up in there

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Speaker 7: down the street. His daddy had helped him build a

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Speaker 7: radio station. And how in the world he gets a

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Speaker 7: license from the Federal Communications Commission to broadcasts. And I

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Speaker 7: was just amazed that, you know, here's a high school

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Speaker 7: student with the radio station in the backyard and he's

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Speaker 7: already got his FCC license.

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Speaker 1: To brock Tyrone Pannawayne Williams as a whiz kid, a normal,

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Speaker 1: likable teenage boy.

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Speaker 7: He's very friendly, very affable, humorous, funny, funny, smart, he's

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Speaker 7: a smart guy's intelligent, very intelligent. But he was kind

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Speaker 7: of like, yeah, you civil rights guys, you guys are

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Speaker 7: my heroes. You all really made it possible for me

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Speaker 7: to be where I am. I got my own radio

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Speaker 7: station and I'm working here at Channel two or eleven,

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Speaker 7: one of them. He worked for both of them at

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Speaker 7: for a period of time.

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Speaker 1: Wa ain't looked up to Tyrone because at the time,

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Speaker 1: Tyrone was one of the youngest members of the SCLC,

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Speaker 1: the Southern Christian Leadership Conference founded by civil rights leaders,

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Speaker 1: primarily doctor Martin Luther King.

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Speaker 7: From reconstruction up until nineteen forty six, black people could

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Speaker 7: not vote in the democratic primaries. Nineteen forty six. The

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Speaker 7: whole goal was cheap black people from voting. We don't

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Speaker 7: want them in our democratic primary because pretty soon they're

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Speaker 7: going to start wanting to hold public offices themselves. They're

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Speaker 7: going to change the whole dynamic of the white segregationist

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Speaker 7: whole on the South. But on April second, nineteen forty six,

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Speaker 7: the United States Supreme Court ruled unanimously George is all

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Speaker 7: white Dixiecrat Party primary was illegal and unconstitutional. So on

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Speaker 7: April second, it was a huge celebration across the South

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Speaker 7: of African Americans and supporters who said we can find

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Speaker 7: a vote in the democratic primaries. My parents went to

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Speaker 7: vote in my hometown of Warranton. Many of them were

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Speaker 7: met by mobs a kookut klansman, and the klan said,

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Speaker 7: ain't no niggas coming in here to vote. And my

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Speaker 7: daddy and some of my relatives got guns and they

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Speaker 7: went back to the courthouse and they said, we're either

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Speaker 7: going to vote, we're gonna die. Five people died, two

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Speaker 7: couples that an unborn infant, George Darcy May, Mary Dorsey,

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Speaker 7: Roger Malcolm, Darthur Malcolm, and the baby. We named the baby.

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Speaker 7: In two thousand and eight, we named the baby Justice.

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Speaker 1: It captured national attention and President Truman tried to pass

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Speaker 1: an anti lynching legislation.

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Speaker 7: This is a case that remains unsolved. It was doctor

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Speaker 7: King's project. He had two things on his agenda when

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Speaker 7: he was assassinated in nineteen sixty eight. The Poor per

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Speaker 7: Campaign March on Washington, which we did complete, and the

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Speaker 7: Moors for a bridge lynchings.

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Speaker 1: Though tons of names and suspects are tied of this event,

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Speaker 1: cooperation was limited. No one confessed, and to this day

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Speaker 1: the case remains unsolved.

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Speaker 7: So here comes the Missing and Murdered Children crisis in

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Speaker 7: the late seventies and early eighties. Okay, here it comes,

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Speaker 7: you know, here it comes, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 7: Wayne is back in our lives again.

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Speaker 1: Tyrone told me he actually went to sea Wayne the

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Speaker 1: day he became a suspect.

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Speaker 7: He calls me up and he says, I need you

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Speaker 7: and Reverend jose Williams to come up to our home.

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Speaker 7: My daddy his father's name Homer. Mister Homer was a

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Speaker 7: photographer for the Atlanta Daily World. We need to go

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Speaker 7: talk to Wayne. He's called me. I know he's called you.

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Speaker 7: He told me he called you, Tyroe. We need to go,

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Speaker 7: seem So jose In I drove up to the home

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Speaker 7: and so we went up to the house. Now, when

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Speaker 7: we got there, the whole front yard was covered with

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Speaker 7: TV cameras. I mean it was like the present in

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Speaker 7: the United States holding a news conference. I mean the

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Speaker 7: whole front the whole the driveways, the little streets and

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Speaker 7: narrow streets were just cluttered with cars. So the authorities

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Speaker 7: had made a decision that they were going to hone

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Speaker 7: in on Wayne's and they were going to get him,

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Speaker 7: and they had notified the media.

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Speaker 5: So we go up to the house. So we go in.

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Speaker 7: They let us in and Josea said to Wayne in

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Speaker 7: front of his parents, jose said, Wayne, I'm talking to

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Speaker 7: you as your second father. Tyrone met you when you

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Speaker 7: were in high school. We're here, we respect you. We've

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Speaker 7: been on your radio show You've been following us around

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Speaker 7: in the movement. You've covered us in the movement, he said,

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Speaker 7: But if you've been involved in any of this, you

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Speaker 7: gotta tell us because we want to help you get

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Speaker 7: the best legal counsel possible. And Wayne looked us in

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Speaker 7: the eye and he said, Reverend Williams. Tyrone, I have

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Speaker 7: not been involved in any of these killings. I've only

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Speaker 7: tried to cover the killings. I've only been following the authorities.

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Speaker 7: I've been getting leads and tips, and people on the

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Speaker 7: inside of the police departments have been calling me and

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Speaker 7: telling me, you know, they found the body here, and

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Speaker 7: he would go to that spot and he'd be set

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Speaker 7: up there with his camera. Yeah, people on the inside

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Speaker 7: of the police department. He had connections, and I think

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Speaker 7: he stepped on toes and he rubbed people the wrong way.

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Speaker 7: But he told us that night, and he convinced me

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Speaker 7: that he was not involved in any killings. He said,

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Speaker 7: they have to find a scapegoat to close this case out.

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Speaker 7: I believe he did. I believe he was telling the truth.

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Speaker 7: I think he told us the truth that night, and

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Speaker 7: I believe he has maintained all alone. I think Wayne

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Speaker 7: is prepared to die standing on his conviction of telling

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Speaker 7: the truth. I think it's a tragedy for Atlanta. I

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Speaker 7: think it's a tragedy for the American criminal justice system

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Speaker 7: to have an innocent person incarcerated for something they did

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Speaker 7: not do. And the sad fact is the real killers

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Speaker 7: were never captured, the real killers have never been punished.

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Speaker 7: We believe the Ku Kluk Klan is connected to this,

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Speaker 7: and we believe that some of these white officers who

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Speaker 7: are klansmen, closet klansmen, they are out here picking up

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Speaker 7: these young black kids. I believe that was a similus

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Speaker 7: of truth to it. I really believe that was a

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Speaker 7: clan connection. I'm convinced that Wayne Williams is innocent of

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Speaker 7: any murder. I think Wayne Williams probably just got a

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Speaker 7: little too close to the investigators. They were frustrated. And

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Speaker 7: the thing that really really is important to me is

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Speaker 7: the fact that the two lead detectives who worked the case,

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Speaker 7: Lewis Graham, who was chief of homicide for the City

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Speaker 7: of Atlanta for many years, any went over to Fulton

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Speaker 7: County became chief, then he went to the Cab County

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Speaker 7: became chief. Before Lewis and Graham died Lewis would always

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Speaker 7: see me in passing and he would say, man, you

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Speaker 7: are someone that we'll always respect. You had the courage

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Speaker 7: to speak the truth to power. We were convinced that

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Speaker 7: Wayne Williams did not commit those crimes. And his partner

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Speaker 7: was Sidney Dorsey. Detective Sydney Dorsy who later became chef

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Speaker 7: of the cab count Who's you know, famous for another reason.

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Speaker 7: But they both said to me, there should have been

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Speaker 7: more people in Atlanta standing up and speaking out and

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Speaker 7: telling the truth about Wayne Williams.

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Speaker 1: I asked Mike McCombs about his thoughts on the racial

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Speaker 1: tensions around the Atlanta child murders.

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Speaker 12: It always comes back to racial tensions. Of course, there

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Speaker 12: was a lot of racial tensions. You know, people were

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Speaker 12: afraid of each other. I mean, I don't think it's

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Speaker 12: any worse than it is now, but when you have

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Speaker 12: a pacific crime, that adds fuel to the fire. And

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Speaker 12: like I said, the blacks wanted to be white and

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Speaker 12: the whites wanted it to be a black And I

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Speaker 12: didn't care who it was as long as we caught them.

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Speaker 4: I could have cared less.

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Speaker 12: But I don't think the racial tensions then were any

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Speaker 12: worse than they are now. I mean, people treated me

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Speaker 12: with respect and I treated them with respect, and so

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Speaker 12: I don't think it's any different than what it is now.

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Speaker 4: It was just a high.

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Speaker 12: It was a very tense time.

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Speaker 4: It was very tense.

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Speaker 12: There's always been, you know, discrimination, always has been. I'm

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Speaker 12: fearful to say that there always will be. There's just

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Speaker 12: always going to be somebody that's going to discriminate, and

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Speaker 12: there's blacks that discriminate against whites and whites that discriminate

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Speaker 12: against blacks. It doesn't mean that either one of them's right.

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Speaker 12: As a matter of fact, it means both of them

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Speaker 12: are really really wrong. You know, I didn't know whether

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Speaker 12: you were black or white when you called me, and

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Speaker 12: didn't care, could care less. I mean, you know, it's

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Speaker 12: not the way I was raised. You know, you're going

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Speaker 12: to have agitators to this day. You always have agitators

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Speaker 12: that get involved, that take things to the extreme, and

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Speaker 12: that's that hurts.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it hurts a lot, worse hurts the situation.

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Speaker 4: So we had them then.

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Speaker 12: You know, we had agitators that said that you know,

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Speaker 12: it was we were that someone was trying to you know,

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Speaker 12: commit genocide of the Blacks and this.

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Speaker 4: That and the other.

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Speaker 12: I mean, you have to keep in mind, And I

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Speaker 12: used to tell people this all the time, The FBI

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Speaker 12: wanted to know what the truth is. We didn't want

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Speaker 12: to convict Wayne Williams. We wanted to know what the

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Speaker 12: truth was. So when you're doing this and you're poking holes,

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Speaker 12: try to see what the individual's motives are. But yeah,

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Speaker 12: there's going to be those folks out there that doesn't

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Speaker 12: think that, for whatever their motives are, that he didn't

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Speaker 12: do it. But you know, people, that's the reason now

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Speaker 12: that I'm not in the FBI, I'm not real quick

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Speaker 12: to render an assessment on things because I know that

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Speaker 12: I don't have all the facts. I'm not in that

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Speaker 12: circle anymore, and I know that what goes on in

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Speaker 12: the middle of that circle, there's a lot of things

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00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 12: that John Doe public they just don't know, and they're

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Speaker 12: not going to know, and so they don't have enough

439
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 12: information to make a good intelligent assessment. That's my thoughts

440
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 12: on it.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, he did it.

442
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 5: Why do you think Wayne liam still says he didn't

443
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 5: do it?

444
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 12: Well, I'm not really sure that there would be any

445
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 12: advantage to him admitting it. For the first thing. But

446
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 12: I think Wayne has some mental issues, some disorders that

447
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 12: would cause someone to be a compulsive liar. I don't

448
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 12: think he'll ever admit it. I don't think he has

449
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 12: the ability to admit it. Shoot, he's been in there now.

450
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 12: We convicted him in eighty two, so I mean he's

451
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 12: he's got thirty five years in prison now.

452
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: Just like mccombis, Popcorn also thinks Wayne Williams is guilty

453
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: and that Wayne is the Atlanta child murderer. But he

454
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: acknowledges people's disbelief. He didn't necessarily look like a cold

455
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: blooded murderer.

456
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 13: He was not a threatening character. The first time I

457
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 13: looked one him, I almost laughed. I said, this guy,

458
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 13: but he was not threatening. And that's why he got

459
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 13: away with it, because people said, no, this guy murdered

460
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 13: that many kids.

461
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 3: They refuse to believe it.

462
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 13: You know, if somebody has a better suspect out there,

463
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 13: please let us know. But there's no one has ever

464
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 13: come forward with anyone else.

465
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: But after Wayne Williams was apprehended, did the murders actually stop?

466
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 13: The best evidence of will was last body that fell

467
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 13: off the bridge. We arrested Willie Williams, They ain't been

468
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 13: a murder since what do you mean, no murder since

469
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 13: after we arrested him, they were no more victims.

470
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: So since eighty one, there's been no murdered African American.

471
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 13: First has been don't you read the papers, but none

472
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 13: with a similar, dissimilar mo There have been no similar

473
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 13: murders since that last body fell off the bridge, strangling, strangling,

474
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 13: taking off the street, young black male taken off the street,

475
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 13: strangled and dumped. Now the people who don't believe, would

476
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 13: have you believe that the murders still continue. The newspapers

477
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 13: are just covering up with the police. I mean I've

478
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 13: heard that that said, the murders have continued all this time,

479
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 13: just the police and the media not reporting them. Do

480
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 13: you think I'm an idiot? You work for the media,

481
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 13: do you do you think it's true? No, but this

482
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 13: is the stupid shit they come up with. But Wayne,

483
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 13: that was the best evidence, the every ten day pattern

484
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 13: of a kid stripped, dumping or stopped, and we didn't

485
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 13: have any more.

486
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 5: Why do you think Wayne Williams still claims he's innocent.

487
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 13: Because that's Wayne Williams. One of the things Wayne Williams

488
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 13: thought he was smarter than us, And I said, his

489
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 13: biggest mistake was overestimating his intelligence and underestimating oz and

490
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 13: he thought he can commit for a crime. He wanted

491
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 13: to show the world that he was smarter than everyone else.

492
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 13: So this was this was an ego.

493
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 4: Trip for him.

494
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 13: I tell people in my bureau career, I put five

495
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 13: men in prison who murdered a total of thirty five people,

496
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 13: and twenty five of them were done by one man.

497
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 13: How many people can say that good old fashioned police work,

498
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 13: you know, nothing fancy just sitting under a bridge waiting

499
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 13: for something to happen. If you come up with a

500
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 13: better suspect, please let us know. But right now, this

501
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 13: is the best thing, the best suspect we got going.

502
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 14: Like now, when you look back on it, I felt

503
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 14: like they just they need to put it on somebody,

504
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 14: and he kind of like fell into place, and then

505
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 14: it hadn't helped it. After they got him, it stopped.

506
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 14: So you know that just say, oh, we got the

507
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 14: right man. That doesn't necessarily me he's the right man,

508
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 14: but you know, it stopped. I mean, I think he

509
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 14: could have did some stuff, but I definitely don't think

510
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 14: he did all of it, even if he did any

511
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 14: of them, you know, but the only thing hearing him

512
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 14: is they stopped once they got him, they stopped.

513
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 4: So it was like, well, even if we ain't got

514
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 4: the man, they stopped. The problems are with.

515
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 15: Wayne Williams under arrest. Everyone thinks they can relax and

516
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 15: the string of murders has stopped. But it just may

517
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 15: be that whoever's really doing it, if it's not Wayne Williams,

518
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 15: they decide, well, now it's a good time to stop

519
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 15: because this other guy's in jail for it.

520
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 16: Many people think, well, maybe these murders didn't stalk. With

521
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 16: Wayne Williams arrest, there's a lot of contention around the

522
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 16: distinction between the murder of children and the murders of

523
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 16: these adults who Wayne Williams was directly convicted of killing,

524
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 16: and whether those are necessarily a part of the same

525
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 16: pattern crimes. They see my valid questions to ask. In

526
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 16: my opinion, every single child that was identified as part

527
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 16: of the pattern cases of the Atlanta child murders wasn't strangled,

528
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 16: and they all were in the same place or found

529
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 16: in the same place or from the same place. More

530
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 16: or less generally, when you have that volume, but not

531
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 16: all of them. There's always this sense that what evidence

532
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 16: was collected, what evidence was lost?

533
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 17: How many children black males from poverty areas disappeared after

534
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 17: Wayne Williams went to jail, the list existed. After he

535
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 17: was convicted, the list disappeared. But I've always wanted to

536
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 17: know how many black boys in that same age group

537
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 17: from those neighborhoods disappeared after that.

538
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: Looking at the numbers, fewer kids died from asphyxiation in

539
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two versus nineteen eighty one.

540
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 5: But to say that all the murder stopped just isn't true.

541
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: Dozens of young black kids were abducted and murdered in

542
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties after Wayne williams imprisonment. However, maybe a

543
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: more accurate statement is that the volume of pattern crimes decreased,

544
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: in particular young black males who died from asphyxiation rather

545
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: than stab wounds or gun violence, and whose bodies were

546
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: later found seemingly scattered throughout metro Atlanta. So do serial

547
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: killers just stop killing? Well, sometimes they do. For example,

548
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: the infamous BTK killer stopped killing after seventeen years, and

549
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: he wasn't apprehended until nearly fourteen years after the last

550
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: murder he committed. I sat down with Meredith, one of

551
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: our producers, and a man named Kerrie Middlebrooks, the brother

552
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: of victim Eric Middlebrooks. He wanted to hear his perspective

553
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: as a family member. Who was his brother Eric, and

554
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: what to Kerry think of Wayne Williams.

555
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 8: My foster dad called me and he woke me up.

556
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 8: He said, we'll come over here. I want to talk

557
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 8: to you about something. He said, well, I don't know

558
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 8: how to tell you this, but Eric was killed last night.

559
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,479
Speaker 8: I guess I just didn't know what to say at

560
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 8: that point, so finally I said, well what happened? And

561
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 8: he said, well, they found him behind the with Johnson

562
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 8: Hotel buying some dumpsters. So what happened? Did somebody shoot

563
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 8: him or what? And they said, well, no, he was

564
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 8: seriously injured. He had been hitting the head with something

565
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 8: and on his bicycle. They cut his tires and stabbed

566
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 8: them in their arm.

567
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 11: The body of fourteen year old Eric middlebrook was found

568
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 11: about seven this morning behind a bar and the two

569
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 11: hundred block of Flat Shoals Road near Memorial. He was

570
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 11: hit on the back of the head with some kind

571
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 11: of blood instrument his pockets had been gone through. The

572
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 11: bike he was riding was next to his body.

573
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 4: I mean, it was an earth shattering I guess you know.

574
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 8: I still have not gotten over that because he was fourteen.

575
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 8: Body can do something like that to a kid. This

576
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 8: was just straight up violence, you know, holding his head

577
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 8: stabbed in an arm. I mean, I try and sit

578
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 8: up and imagine what was going on in his mind

579
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 8: at the time. All of this stuff was going on,

580
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 8: and it's rough, But I actually became an Atlanta police

581
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 8: officer because my brother had been killed.

582
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: I had just got out a Marine Corps.

583
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 8: I was working as a security officer at the P

584
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 8: Street Plaza Hotel. One of my supervisors said, you know,

585
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 8: the city of Atlanta is hiring, why don't you become.

586
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 4: A police officer. There was no way, in.

587
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 8: My opinion, my brother died by mechanisms of Wayne Williams.

588
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: Carrie Middlebrooks then told me his own theory about Eric's murder.

589
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: He saw some thing the day his brother was found

590
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: dead and it stuck with him to this day. He

591
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: mentioned a woman named Lisa, one of Eric's neighbors.

592
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 8: Apparently, Lisa called my foster dad's house to ask if

593
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 8: Eric could go to the store to get some cigarettes

594
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 8: around nine o'clock ish that night. All I know is

595
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 8: he said they got a phone call at nine o'clock

596
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 8: the night before about the store trip.

597
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: He didn't come back home.

598
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 8: Where my foster dad lived and where Lisa lived was

599
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 8: approximately one hundred feet They all lived in the same

600
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 8: apartment complex. I guess i'd been there a couple hours

601
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 8: and Lisa said, why don't you come down to my

602
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 8: house and we'll talk. When I went to her house,

603
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 8: I can just say I didn't see it happened, but

604
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 8: I just have to say something brought me to that

605
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 8: apartment for me to observe that something that takes place.

606
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 8: Whether it was God or you know, fake O don't,

607
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 8: I don't know, but based on what I saw, something

608
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 8: related to my brother had to have happened there.

609
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 4: When I got down to her apartment, I noticed.

610
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 8: There was a lot of blood on the floor, table,

611
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 8: various places, you know. I started having all kinds of stuff.

612
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 4: Running through my head.

613
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 8: She explained to me that her finger had been cut,

614
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 8: and I don't know how all of that blood could

615
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 8: have come through that basically or scratch. It wasn't just

616
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 8: in one spot.

617
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 4: It was in.

618
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 8: Several spots about a pint of blood. My thing is,

619
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 8: I don't think Wayne Williams killed my brother. I think

620
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 8: it occurred about a hundred feet from where my brother

621
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 8: actually lived.

622
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 4: I did tell the policeys, I did tell the FBI this. Now.

623
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 8: What I should have done, which is what I was

624
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 8: thinking about doing, was scoop up some of the blood

625
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 8: and put it on something.

626
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 4: Didn't do that.

627
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 8: I guess I was sort of gullible, but I'm saying

628
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 8: that he died in that apartment. I clearly told the

629
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 8: FBI what I thought about what took place with my brother.

630
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 8: Apparently they didn't do anything because Wayne Williams seemed to

631
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 8: remain the primary subject they were focusing on. And so

632
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 8: I just don't feel that man could have killed my brother,

633
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 8: you know. I mean, like I said, Eric was fourteen,

634
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 8: so he was really kind of like a young lion,

635
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 8: you know. I mean, Wayne Williams was not much bigger

636
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 8: than my brother, not that my brother was a big guy.

637
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 8: To me, Eric would have had to have been killed

638
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 8: sort of like in an enclosed area or confined area.

639
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 8: I don't feel that they have the right person for

640
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 8: my brother's murder. I think they were kind of reaching

641
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 8: for Straws. I mean at one point they called them

642
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 8: a psychic. We're talking professional police investigators. You call it

643
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 8: a psychic to help you do what?

644
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: Kerry brought with him a framed document titled a resolution.

645
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: It was sent to his family in twenty thirteen by

646
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: the Georgia House of Representatives.

647
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: It said, honoring the victims and the Atlanta Missing a

648
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 4: Murdered Children.

649
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 18: Case, It's a resolution to commit to continuing work until

650
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 18: adequate laws or passed to protect our children in Atlanta

651
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 18: by the House of Representatives. Here is this consolation. Do

652
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 18: you feel Did you feel good about receiving this?

653
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 8: I mean, it's just the plaque or some acknowledgement that

654
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 8: something occurred with a bunch of names on it.

655
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 4: But it doesn't resolve anything.

656
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 8: But yeah, hopefully y'all can do something with this man.

657
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 8: I mean, Wayne Williams has been saying that he's innocent.

658
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 8: How innocent I don't know, but I don't think he

659
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 8: killed my brother.

660
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: Carrie Middlebrooks was now the second relative of a victim

661
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: to tell me he did not believe Wayne Williams was guilty,

662
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: at least for any crime against his family. Back in

663
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: my very first meeting with Dwayne Hendrix, he mentioned a

664
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: man that knew Wayne Williams very well back in the day.

665
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 5: His name was Jimmy Howard.

666
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 2: Jimmy would be what you would say is was Wayne's protege.

667
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: He was the lead singer for the group that Wayne

668
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: was managing at the time, and he was the guy

669
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: who was with Wayne every day, and he.

670
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: Was part of the band that Wayne was putting together

671
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: right before he was arrested. The same one Wayne mentioned

672
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: in his press conference. Jimmy knew Wayne back at the

673
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 1: very beginning, when Wayne was in his early twenties trying

674
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: to start the next Jackson five.

675
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:02,479
Speaker 19: Tell me mentioning in murder kids kids, think y'all Wayne

676
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 19: Trevor killing them kid? They got the Wayne Trither two grown,

677
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 19: the ducks man. Put all the all the kids that

678
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 19: are done, look at them. See the number one thing

679
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 19: here to me. Number one. You got the parents out

680
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 19: here who kids has been murdered. They number one that

681
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 19: never been closed, that wounds still open. But the place

682
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 19: keep moving on. Wayne will Number two a man that

683
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 19: y'all use for an escapegoat. Lock this man up, forget

684
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 19: about it. Then y'all think y'all on the side of

685
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 19: the case.

686
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 5: Ask Jimmy how he met Wayne in the first place.

687
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 19: Man, I met Wayne in a talent show. Who's doing

688
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 19: the talent show? I was in a band. We was performing.

689
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 19: You know, after all the accident did their thing, they'll

690
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 19: come out and said who won is who placed this

691
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 19: and that? But when at the time was when we

692
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 19: hit the stage. The crowd, you know, they had a

693
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 19: big spotlights now shout. I was playing drums and they

694
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 19: shine that light back there on me. In the crowd

695
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 19: just went crazy cause I was singing and playing the

696
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 19: drums at the same time. So when it was over with,

697
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 19: as soon as we got ready to exit the stage

698
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 19: to go out to the back and was greeting people

699
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 19: and talking to people, that's when I met Wayne and

700
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 19: he came in and duced. He said, Man, that was great, man.

701
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 19: What's your name?

702
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 3: Man?

703
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 9: That was hot. Man.

704
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 19: Listen, man, you you don't need to be on the drums,

705
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 19: you need to be out here in the front. So

706
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 19: I'm looking at him like, yeah, he said, what's your name?

707
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 19: I told him he said, Man, hey, take my car,

708
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 19: get in touch with me.

709
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 13: Man.

710
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 9: You gotta know I can call it man. I got

711
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 9: some things I'm putting together.

712
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 19: That's exactly how how it went, so I didn't never

713
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 19: call him. I ended up seeing Wayne again at about

714
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 19: two other shows and then my brother said said, what

715
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 19: do you see? What are you talking about when? And

716
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 19: that's that's why I went. And he told me what

717
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 19: he was doing.

718
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 3: How old were you?

719
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 9: Fifteen? Sixteen? And he said, I'm putting the group together.

720
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 19: So one one weekend and he asked me to come

721
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 19: to the studio recording section, rang my mom and everybody.

722
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 19: He said, I want to build this group around you.

723
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 19: I met the guys, we talked. We all locked in

724
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 19: pretty good.

725
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 9: At the time.

726
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 19: It was just them two guys I met, and then

727
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 19: three of y'all yeah, and then the other two came,

728
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 19: so it was five at that point. We went on

729
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 19: and started doing songs man, and just doing things, meeting

730
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 19: every other weekend, mean through the weekdays on rehearsing on

731
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 19: these songs that he had picked that Wayne had chous,

732
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 19: some songs and remixes that each old for us to

733
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 19: do well. The plans were to be the next, the

734
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 19: next famous group behind the Jackson.

735
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 9: It was just crazy the time. But I can say

736
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 9: this though I know we ain't even do no killing?

737
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: What is The group called.

738
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 20: Gemini guards at the Fulton County Jail were authorized to

739
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 20: allow Williams three calls per week. The guards were to

740
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 20: dial the numbers from outside Williams's maximum security selle and

741
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 20: had him the receiver.

742
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 5: But that is not what happened.

743
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 20: The calls made by Williams include calls to members of

744
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 20: this group of singers who Williams claims to manage. In fact,

745
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 20: Wayne Williams from his sale set up this rehearsal and

746
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 20: invited the Action News team into videotape it.

747
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: Then Jimmy told me an incredible story. He was actually

748
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: with Wayne the night he was picked up by the

749
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: FBI and taking in for questioning. That night, Wayne had

750
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: taken Jimmy and his fellow bandmates to Wendy's after practice.

751
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 5: That's when it happened.

752
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 19: We went to Wendy's on food in the dust. I

753
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 19: was sitting in the wonder Man. You can see the cops.

754
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 19: You can see the cars. They were just sitting there,

755
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 19: the ones that we would recognize. Okay, we're sitting there.

756
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 19: When I said, man, thin' gonna lot me? If I

757
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 19: will say, just gonnun lock me up and stop harassing me.

758
00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 9: You know everybody at home.

759
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 19: We got on bank aage they Brian home and as

760
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 19: we was going down that street over our bank head,

761
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 19: we went past bread house and turned around. Two mark

762
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 19: cars was following up behind cars that I never seen

763
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 19: that was at the windows day was behind us. We

764
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 19: turned around, came back, dropped them off some once. I'm

765
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 19: tired of this s As we was getting to the

766
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 19: edge of the street, stopped trying on bank here Wain

767
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 19: so I'm been and call him mayor tell him that

768
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 19: they gonna lock me up, Lock me up now. He

769
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 19: pulled a splitt across the street into the JR. It

770
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 19: used to be a jar Creek store. It was a

771
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 19: big star. That was a phone book now and he

772
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 19: got out the car. Man toyot was sitting in the car. Man,

773
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 19: I think he got on that phone book. No more

774
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 19: than about two minutes. Cars just come from everywhere swarmed

775
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 19: the car.

776
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 9: Helicopters. Man, it was crazy. Me and two was looking

777
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 9: at each other.

778
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 19: Man We was like, what that, what's going on here?

779
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 19: And we looking cop opened up the door and and

780
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 19: put one over to and say hey, come on, come

781
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 19: on over with us. We're gonna take Wing with us.

782
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 19: Tweyn said, why you gonna do that?

783
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 4: Man?

784
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,919
Speaker 19: It is do y'all think really, way ain't killed them kids?

785
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 19: I said, nah, I ain't did that, man, I don't

786
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 19: believe that. He said, well, he said, come on, we're

787
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 19: gonna we don't want the media you see your guys.

788
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 19: Come on, he covers up. We're gonna carr y'all home.

789
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 19: We're gonna take Wayne with us for some question. At

790
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 19: that point, At that point, right there, that's when I

791
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 19: really started feeling some kind of way.

792
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 9: Right there. It was a scary moment. I was like, man,

793
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 9: what the what is they doing?

794
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 19: Look at who they convicted Wayne or killing and they

795
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 19: didn't even have the evidence to convict him of that.

796
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 9: What's evidence?

797
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 5: This is?

798
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 19: This is big, man, This is huge. This case is huge.

799
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 19: And I'm gonna say this here. I been knowing Wayne

800
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 19: in a long time, long time, But I know you

801
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 19: got some bitterness in him, because think about it, if

802
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 19: you was, if you was in his situation, in his shoes,

803
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 19: you would want someone to stand for you knowing that

804
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 19: you hadn't done this.

805
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 9: When you man, this thing.

806
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 19: It's deep, man, It's deepen than a lot of people,

807
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 19: let me tell you, So, that was the name that

808
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 19: the media giving Wayne Way. They wouldn't use his name.

809
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 19: They gave him this name, Atlanta Monster. We're gonna show

810
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 19: this man and it's a good thing. So you know,

811
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 19: we can put this puzza together and everybody gonna be shocked.

812
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 5: I currently live in Atlanta now.

813
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 1: I work downtown off Poncetan Leon Avenue in the Old

814
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: Fourth Ward. I wanted to explore the city through the

815
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: lens of the Atlanta Child Murders. Living here, I'd heard

816
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,959
Speaker 1: of many places in this case, but a lot's changed

817
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: in Atlanta since then. Jason from Hellstuff Works went through

818
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: the process of mapping out all the major sites in

819
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: the Atlanta child murders, including the homes of victims, places

820
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: they were last seen, and where each victim was found.

821
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: One day, we hopped in the car and drove around

822
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 1: the city to get a feel for where these tragedies

823
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: took place thirty five years ago.

824
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 4: Where'd you get this?

825
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 21: Well, the only place you can give them at these

826
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 21: days Barnes and Noble.

827
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 5: So we are here, Yuseph Bell can.

828
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 4: Hear the traffics from I twenty right behind us.

829
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 5: So This definitely used to be a building, and they

830
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 5: found Bell's body when it was abandoned. Yusuf was last

831
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 5: seen three days ago. He was running an errand for

832
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 5: a woman who lived in the apartment complex.

833
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 8: He came to this little store at the corner of

834
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 8: McDaniel and Georgia Avenue.

835
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 17: Ibody out there like that that has and I just

836
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 17: wish they knew that somebody here loves him, that a

837
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 17: whole lot of people love him, that this whole community

838
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 17: loves him, and they want him back too.

839
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 22: Yusuf's body was found Thursday in an abandoned schoolhouse at

840
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 22: Fulton and Martin Streets, near the Atlanta Fulton County Stadium.

841
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 22: Police believe the boy, who had been missing for eighteen days,

842
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 22: was strangled.

843
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 5: We're probably five minutes from the office right now.

844
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: If you were just dropped me here and blindfolded, I'd

845
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: have no idea where I was.

846
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 8: There's like a new kid I disappearing every three or

847
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 8: four weeks.

848
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: The last place we went that day in your neighbor

849
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: was Wayne William's old home off Penelope Road in Atlanta.

850
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 4: Left here, go.

851
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 5: Straight then should be next.

852
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 17: Just cross this bridge, then your destination will be on

853
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 17: the right.

854
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 23: Your destination is on the right.

855
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: We turned down the street and I went by myself

856
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: to the door. There was no one there, so I

857
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: walked down to one of the neighbor's houses. Someone came

858
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: to the door. He didn't live here in the eighties,

859
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: but he had an interesting take.

860
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 21: Nonetheless, it's so funny though, because like every time I

861
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 21: take the left, and every time a left driver.

862
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 9: Come over, they say, that's the way william house.

863
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 21: And then like then we heard of it, and then

864
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 21: we googled in and everything.

865
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 24: It was somebody at the gas station told me because

866
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 24: he needed a ride home or whatever, and they told him, oh,

867
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 24: you live over there by where and he said it

868
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 24: and he didn't think really anything about it. And then

869
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 24: a second person told him in the same.

870
00:47:58,719 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 4: Weeks, different mix.

871
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 5: You know, what's the general consensus you're getting from people.

872
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 21: That he has something to do in it or whatever.

873
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 21: But it was like, it's probably because clann alre they

874
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 21: bringing kids for them or whatever. I don't know, Yeah,

875
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 21: what did you hear about whatway Williams? I google No,

876
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 21: But I believe that it's a lot of people in

877
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 21: pressing for stuff that they didn't do. Trust me, you know,

878
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 21: and they get scared and taking deals, you know, and

879
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 21: especially in place like Georgia, like where it's not even

880
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 21: safe to go outside of Fourteenth County. Like you know,

881
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 21: if you're African American, you know, the South is still

882
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 21: the South is all black on the outside and white

883
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 21: in the middle. That's not a racist statement, it's it's

884
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 21: a true statement. Because you have black people out here

885
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 21: still that fear of white people. They don't want to,

886
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 21: you know, they don't want to cross that line. A

887
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 21: lot of people are still stuck in the past out here.

888
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: I'd seen Wayne's house in his old neighborhood. But what

889
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: about his car, the car that he was driving on

890
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: the bridge that night, the same one Jimmy Howard was

891
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: writing in.

892
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 5: When the FBI picked him up.

893
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: The car that would have been a key piece of

894
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: evidence in this case, if Wayne was in fact the

895
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: Atlanta schold murderer.

896
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 5: I searched the internet, but I wasn't hopeful.

897
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, I found a two thousand

898
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: and nine article suggesting that I was completely intact. The

899
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: car was in possession of a man named doctor Blackwelder

900
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 1: in northeastern Alabama, or at.

901
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 5: Least that's where it was eight years ago. I didn't know.

902
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: Who this man was, and I couldn't find a single

903
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: phone number for him, but I drove down there anyways.

904
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 5: And gave it a shot. Maybe the car was still

905
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 5: around and it was.

906
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: Doctor Blackwelder was willing to give me his perspective. He

907
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: was actually a good family friend of Wayne Williams and

908
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: had been there through the whole thing, including the trial.

909
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 6: Trot was in eighty two, and as the hand of

910
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 6: the law enforcement and criminalistic program in a community college,

911
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 6: he would want to know if I'd come up some evidence.

912
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 6: She just give him an opinion about what I thought

913
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 6: about the evidence, if it was any good or not.

914
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 6: And as it ended up, I staved through the whole

915
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 6: trial and got to know Wayne's mom and dad real well,

916
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 6: and then after it was over, I just stayed with

917
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 6: him and I kept going to see Wayne's mother had

918
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 6: catch her and she sometime during our conversation she made

919
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 6: me promise that I'd never turned my back on her baby,

920
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 6: and I told her, I said, well, I'll promise you

921
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 6: that I'll ever turn my back holding But I said

922
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 6: I might go promise him.

923
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 4: Well, all I should.

924
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 6: Agree with him, because he was hard to you know,

925
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 6: sometimes she'd I did exactly agree on things.

926
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 5: I asked Blackwold, why you even had the car.

927
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: He explained that the car being part of the house

928
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: of Wayne's father, Homer Williams, for years just sitting there and.

929
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 6: He just pretty much parked in the backyard and just

930
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 6: left it. So and I went to the prison several

931
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 6: times to see Wayne until I got to where I

932
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 6: just had a heart attack and cancer and all that.

933
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 6: And then Homer died and Wayne called and he said,

934
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 6: you can have that scean wagon if you want it.

935
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 4: So my wife and I went over.

936
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 6: There with a roll bag and got the car and

937
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 6: brought it back over here.

938
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 3: That's pretty much is.

939
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 6: Most people just want to look at it and take pictures,

940
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 6: but we have people about two or three times and

941
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 6: boks that want to buy it.

942
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you carefully look at it? Yeah?

943
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 4: Wow, everything is it?

944
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 6: It was in there when when I got it. Nobody's

945
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 6: earing thing.

946
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 4: So we don't want to worry.

947
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: Abrom all the stories i'd heard the station wagon was white,

948
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: but it wasn't white anymore.

949
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 6: The car there's been white in the plays. When when

950
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 6: Wayne headed it was this color, and Homer painted the

951
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 6: blue collar after he got after Wayne was in prison.

952
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 5: It's now a light blue color and covered with brown rust.

953
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: Also full of dirt and junk fishing that papers men's

954
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: athletic shoes. Blackwater said he believes that most of this

955
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: stuff belonged to Wayne's father, Homer. Blackwaters seemed pretty close

956
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: to Wayne Liams and his family, so I asked him

957
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: what was Wayne like.

958
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 6: He had an old police car that had he had

959
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 6: a scanner in it, and he would go out and

960
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 6: take pictures of fires and crime sines and things like

961
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 6: that and sell the pictures sing and bodies that warned you.

962
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 6: And he had a job of some type with WSB Television.

963
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 6: He would make you think that he was the star

964
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 6: of the show, but I think really he was just

965
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 6: a runner or so it was really when it came

966
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 6: out down to it, you know, he had a pretty

967
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 6: normal life. He was he was an only child, only

968
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 6: was spoiled, and I think his mom and dad he

969
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 6: had a need to be in the limelight. Have you

970
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 6: ever been in that house up there?

971
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 3: Not inside of it.

972
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 6: We walked outside, okay, and on very back was where

973
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 6: his radio station was, and he had some kind of

974
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 6: small transmitter that would cover the neighborhood.

975
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 12: You know.

976
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was the DJ and the news director, but

977
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 6: he wanted to open his radio station up and then

978
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 6: he wanted to be a promoter or something. That's what

979
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 6: he was doing out when they caught him on the bridge.

980
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 6: He was trying to find the address of a girl

981
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 6: that he had an interview with the next day to

982
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 6: do singing or whatever.

983
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: Blackwater had sat through the entire trial, so he actually

984
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 1: owned all the defense documents. He even played a role

985
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 1: in the trial actively working with wings attorneys.

986
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 6: My agreement was with him that I would get a

987
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 6: copy of all of the documents that they used, and

988
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 6: I got copies of all. I've got a basement with

989
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 6: eight or ten bucars full of documents, all the reports

990
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 6: and all the documentaries that the defense got under discovery,

991
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 6: the federal documents, FBI documents, and practically all of the

992
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 6: state documents, FBI reports, all the autopsy reports had scribble

993
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 6: notes that the attorneys took dinner, a meeting at night.

994
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 6: His mother gave me several photographs that of their family

995
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 6: album of Wayne. It was just a little bit fellow

996
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 6: growing up. You see how my filing system.

997
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 4: Is right here.

998
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 3: So yeah, it seems like it's kind of my folly system.

999
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, after I retired, I brought everything into the house.

1000
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 6: It's all just so I'll have to get somebody to

1001
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 6: get somebody to go through and dig it out.

1002
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 4: But I've got it. It's all. It's sealed up.

1003
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 6: I don't think he got a fair trial because I

1004
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 6: know that Maynard Jackson and all of them needed somebody

1005
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 6: to call it because it was affecting convention in trade

1006
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 6: and so forth. And when I would go up there

1007
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 6: on the weekends and go out and eat, a lot

1008
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 6: of the resturants will be just about empty. And the

1009
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 6: people said the business had really fallen off since that happened,

1010
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,959
Speaker 6: and it it hadn't picked up, you know. But once

1011
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 6: they called him, then everybody took a shower or leave

1012
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 6: and thought, well, you know, we can go back to

1013
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 6: live in our normal lives. And of course they called him,

1014
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 6: which means people will assume that if they catch somebody,

1015
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 6: he's guilty, and then during the trial it would have

1016
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 6: been hard, I think for Jerry to find him not

1017
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 6: guilty and then go back into their neighborhoods and live.

1018
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 4: And I don't know how much to a what degree.

1019
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 6: They just didn't want to have to put up with

1020
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 6: what they would catch from the people of school, to

1021
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 6: work at church or whatever if they had found him

1022
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 6: not guilty. So I think that plays a part in it,

1023
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 6: but I don't know how much.

1024
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: After several months of researching the Atlanta child murders and

1025
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams himself, I found the case perplexing and nobody

1026
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: seemed to agree on anything. After meeting in person with

1027
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: Tween Hendricks in Texas, he called me out of the

1028
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: blue one day and was about to send this projects

1029
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: in a whole new direction.

1030
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 2: It was going all day and I just wanted to

1031
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 2: reach out to you.

1032
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 23: I actually spoke.

1033
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 8: With Wayne WI about the podcast.

1034
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 2: He basically gave his blessings, gave me ain't light, and he's.

1035
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 12: Willing to talk.

1036
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 11: Give me a call you get.

1037
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 4: Out the tummy tree.

1038
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 5: Next time on Atlanta Monster.

1039
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 2: This conference is recorded.

1040
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 6: My bed.

1041
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster is an investigative podcast wholl week by week

1042
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: with new episodes every Friday, A joint production between How

1043
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Original music is by Makeup

1044
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: and Vanity Set. Audio archives courtesy of WSB News Film

1045
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: and Videotape Collection Brown Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries.

1046
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 5: For the latest updates, please visit.

1047
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: Atlantamonster dot com or follow us on social media.

1048
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 4: Alexa, watch the temperature.

1049
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 23: Right now in Piedmont. It's forty nine degrees with clear

1050
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 23: skies throughout the night. You can expect more of the

1051
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 23: same with a low of thirty six degrees.

1052
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 3: Alexa, thank you very much.

1053
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 6: You're welcome, Alexa.

1054
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 24: Will you marry me?

1055
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 23: I don't want to be tied down. In fact, I

1056
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 23: can't be. I'm amorphosed by nature.

1057
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 3: Are you drinking her prisoner here?

1058
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1059
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 12: I am really