WEBVTT - Banking on Bitcoin w/ Natalie Brunell #968 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.360 Welcome to Head of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt. 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:06.880 Today we're talking banking on bitcoin with Natalie Brunell. 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:28.920 That's right, so Joel. When we occasionally talk about bitcoin, 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.280 it's typically within the context. 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:34.720 Of investing, and like, even then, our approach is for 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:37.800 it to be a relatively small portion of our overall portfolio. 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:40.680 Could most folks do without it? We think that that's 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.920 the case. That's true, Like, don't overly focus on I 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:48.120 would say what we see as a more alternative investment 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.720 when you haven't even maxed out conventional retirement accounts. But 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.920 that is not at all how our guest, Natalie Brunell, 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.120 how she views bitcoin. Natalie sees it as this entirely 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.400 new system of money, a system that is incorruptible and 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:07.319 non partisan. In her words, bitcoin is egalitarian. It doesn't 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.480 benefit any race over another. It's the purest expression of 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.200 freedom and self determination. All of these things sound like 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.440 totally awesome. Yeah, And for over a decade Natalie was 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.520 an investigative journalist. She is now a predominant figure in 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.920 the bitcoin space. She's an influential educator. She's host of 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.280 the coin Stories podcast, where she dives in deep and 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:29.720 that is exactly what we're hoping to do some today 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.520 all about bitcoin. So, Natalie, thank you so much for 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:33.440 joining us today. 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:33.840 On the podcast. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.240 Thank you so much for having me. What a nice introduction. 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:38.080 We're glad to have you. Natalie. 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.160 So much to get to on this one. But first question, 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:41.959 what do you like to spourge on? Matt and I 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.440 sporge on beer, but hey, it's okay, we're saving and 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.720 investing simultaneously. What is your craft beer equivalent? 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.360 I like to splurge on trips to Italy. I have 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.640 an Italy obsession. A lot of people don't know that. 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.080 I actually studied journalism at Italian in college and I 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.080 try to find my way back to Italy every single 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.360 year I live there two years of college. I'm obsessed 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.920 with Italy and Italian culture. So they can take my money. 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.400 That country can just take my money. 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:08.760 Okay. 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.000 What is the most underrated city that that you think? Yeah, 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.160 just gets overlooked by most folks who you go to Italy? 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.560 Ooh, underrated? That's that's a tough one. I mean, my 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.760 favorite city's Florence because that's where I live. So I 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.320 love Tuscany and there are so many little towns that 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.720 you can discover and explore there. But I actually think 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.160 underrated would be the island of Sardinia. A lot of 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.320 people still haven't been there. It's got the most pristine, 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.280 tranquil turquoise water that you'll ever see, and not as 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:38.600 many tourists, so it still feels a little bit like 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.120 that raw, rugged Italian that you read about in history books. 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.000 Yeah, it's really I want to swim in. 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.120 I'm putting that on my list now that I'm curious 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.720 you you're a first generation immigrant. Your parents struggles they 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.960 seem to impact the way you think about money even today. 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.679 How what sort of influence has has, like your family history. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:02:58.880 Had on you. 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.720 Sure? So, I think that so many of our belief 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.000 systems and our values are shaped very early. And for me, 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.960 I grew up with a fear of financial insecurity, and 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:16.160 I was really determined to succeed because I watched how 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.640 difficult it was for my parents to sort of to 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.920 sort to bring our family to this country and to 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.720 just create what would be like a middle class life here. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.240 They just they struggled so much. It was first very 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.040 difficult to be able to come. They grew up under 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.120 communism and They waited every single year to see if 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.280 they want a visa lottery to be able to come, 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.240 and once they got here, you know, they didn't know 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.240 the language. They had to start over. We lived in 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.880 a tiny apartment. I grew up around people that were 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:50.440 much more financially comfortable than us. And once they were 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:54.320 finally able to purchase a small townhouse, I went off 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.000 to college and a couple of years later, the Great 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.960 Financial Crisis hit and they were suddenly bankrupt and moving 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:02.000 into a tiny, one droom and I just thought, how 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.200 the heck can this happen in a country that's supposed 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.160 to represent the American dream that you know, it doesn't 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.600 matter where you come from, if you work hard, you 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.400 can achieve something. And I felt like the game was rigged. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.560 I felt like the rules were were in favor of 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.520 the people at the top, and so I became I 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.279 became an investigative reporter, honestly because I wanted to hold 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.640 the powerful accountable. And I was very much in like 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.839 the tax the Rich movement. I thought that the way 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.320 to fix this is for government to reach in and 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.440 redistribute the wealth and punish the greedy people and give 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.360 it back to the working class, And I came at 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:44.640 this view from a fundamental misunderstanding of how economics works, 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.120 how our money is actually even issued, and the broken 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.599 incentives at the base layer of this system. And I 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.080 didn't learn about any of that until bitcoins. So Bitcoin 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.039 for me was actually a transformative journey of better understanding 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.839 the entire financial system, what money actually is, and why 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.800 so many people feel left behind and add a disadvantage 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.080 even if they're working harder than ever. And I really 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.560 think that bitcoin is the best possible solution we have 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:11.240 before us. 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.880 Okay, I feel like you're segueing very nicely into how 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.360 it is that you became a bitcoin believer, because like, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.039 there are plenty of folks out there who graduated into 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.200 the throes of the Great Recession and even would look 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.360 to the government, right, and like as you peel back 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:27.760 the layers and you're like, Okay, how did this come about? 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.520 Like what caused there to be so many banks who 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.360 are then willing to lend to underqualified borrowers? 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.000 A lot of different theses on that team. 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.280 Yeah, But at the same time, I think there's a 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.160 whole lot of folks who would say, well, I don't 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.760 know if bitcoin is necessarily the answer here. How did 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.880 you kind of come around to essentially believing in bitcoin? 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.400 Well, I just I really didn't know what money was. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.279 I didn't think about it, and I didn't I didn't 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.960 question something that is a reality for all of us, 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.880 which is that things get more expensive every single year, 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.320 at least the things that you need most, right, housing, education, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.840 your groceries. And maybe they don't go up so significantly 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.679 that everyone's protesting in the streets or running around calling 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.680 out how many more dollars each thing costs each year. 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.760 But if you step back, you zoom out, you notice 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:21.039 this trend, everything just climbing up in prices. And I 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.440 never connected that with the expansion of our money supply. 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.280 They basically tell you that inflation is necessary. That's what 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.479 you're sort of taught. Inflation is necessary. It stimulates the economy. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.080 If we didn't have inflation, the whole thing would collapse. 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.320 And it was it was not until bitcoin that I 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.440 actually started to question that, why do we have to 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.880 have a form of money that expands and therefore dilutes 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.960 everyone who's holding it. And there's a real thing that 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.760 I think everyone should study, which is the Cantalon effect 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.320 that the people who get to issue more of this money, 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.559 and the people who are clicking the strokes of keys 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:02.279 that actually expand the monetary units, they benefit the most, 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:04.400 and the people around them benefit the most. If you're 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.839 close to the money printer, So if you're the big banks, 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.640 if you are the special interest groups that get first 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.160 access to the money, or the big corporations that get 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.240 to borrow it really ridiculously low interest rates, you benefit 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.520 from those freshly minted dollars. And as you go downstream, 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.720 us the working class, we benefit it from it the least, 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.760 and in fact, it disenfranchises a lot of people. It 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.520 destroys our purchasing power and our savings, and so over 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.840 the long you know, timeline of this type of activity 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.240 and manipulation with our money, we see people who can 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.800 no longer save. They've they've played by all the rules, 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.320 they've worked hard, they've saved up, and yet they can't 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.880 afford retirement, or to have a family, or to help 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.040 their you know, to get out of a medical situation 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.160 that came up. There's something fundamentally broken with that, and 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.800 that's what I think we need a question if we're 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.440 going to have a monetary system that's going to expand 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.400 continuously and lose value. Well, we need to be able 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.960 to save in something that doesn't. We need the opposite 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:06.720 of that for us to be able to save for 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.280 the future. And I believe bitcoin to be the best 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.360 asset because it is completely decentralized and it is immune 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.520 to inflation. It is scarce and finite, and no one 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:16.600 can ever print more of it. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.800 Yeah, the finite reality of bitcoin, I think is certainly 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.640 one of the key selling points. I'm curious to dive 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.720 deeper on inflation for just a second. How real of 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.400 a problem is inflation in your mind? Because, as let's say, 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.319 we've experienced it more viscerally in recent years, but aren't 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.720 asset prices and incomes typically both going up? Right, So 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:41.040 it's prices, but also people earn more. So why is 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.199 inflation such a problem in your mind? 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.000 So I actually think this is the biggest problem facing 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.240 the working class. And again I didn't recognize it until bitcoin. 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.760 So I think we're under this illusion of growth and expansion. 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.640 They tell you that CPI is two percent, and for 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.199 the most part, CPI is because CPI, the consumer price 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:05.319 index is it's a measure that can be highly manipulated, 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.400 and it has changed. If people actually dig into what 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.880 goes in the metrics that go into CPI, it has 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.760 changed drastically over the last few decades. So it accounts 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.000 for things like, okay, well, if a car, for example, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.200 is getting more expensive, Oh wait, but it has some 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.880 new technology. You can you know, your your music's now 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.560 more digital, or you have a GPS built in. So 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:33.160 we're going to negate that inflation because the technical components 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.839 are a little bit better. Oh wait, you know, steak 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:37.720 got more expensive. A lot of people are choosing not 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:39.880 to even buy stak. They're actually turning to chicken. So 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.160 we're going to actually put chicken into the basket instead 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.000 of steak. So they manipulate the basket to tell you 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.000 inflation is two percent. Meanwhile, the rate at which the 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.160 money is actually expanding, if you measure it by M two, 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:57.480 which is the kind of agreed upon index for monetary supply, 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:03.160 it's actually increasing between six and eight percent annually. So 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:08.439 if you are not getting a raise of eight nine percent, 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.120 you are actually just keeping up with the rate at 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.680 which they're expanding the money supply. A lot of people, 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:17.760 again don't realize that, and so yes, assets have been 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.120 going up because that's where money tends to go. And 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:26.400 who has the majority of assets Wealthy people, Right, Wealthy 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.840 people hold the majority of the assets. And so when 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.680 they manipulate interest rates down, which they did for basically 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.800 two decades, and when they expand the money supply, the 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.959 first recipients of that money, they tend to do things 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.959 like buyback shares of stock, they manipulate essentially real estate prib. 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.600 They go into real estate, they buy real estate. So 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.880 all of this is affecting the very things that the 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.880 working class can no longer afford because their wages are 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.480 only going up by about three point nine percent. So 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.920 this is actually something I wrote about wrote about in 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.520 my book that's coming out this fall. Bitcoin is for Everyone. 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.040 I wrote about how how money supply expansion is moving 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.880 at a much faster rate than wages, which is why 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:07.760 so many people feel like they can never catch up 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.160 because yes, they're getting a raise, but when you zoom 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.160 out again, the money supply is growing much faster than 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.840 their wages are. And so that's why I think the 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.320 working class is sitting there going, yeah, why don't you 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.600 tax the rich because they've got all the stuff. We're 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:23.640 working harder than ever. We don't have anything, and we 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.440 don't know how to take care of our families, and 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.240 I think that's why we've become so polarized politically. But 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.760 it's really two sides of the same coin. It's a 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:37.040 broken monetary system and red blue left right. It's not 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:38.640 going to fix it until we fix the money. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.520 Yeah, I wonder too if that's it seems like we've 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.520 seen a divide among classes. 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.439 Too, as opposed to just blue versus red. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.800 But like, you're highly need the problem here inflation. But 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.280 practically speaking, though, how are you actually using US dollars? 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:54.480 Right? 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.040 Because you can say that, oh, this is ideally what 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.200 we'd moved towards, and you know, when it comes to like, 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.200 I guess bitcoin as an actual currency, but you can't 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.160 use bitcoin to actually pay for groceries at the grocery 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.320 store that you're talking about that are going up in price. 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.360 Practically speaking, how are you interacting, I guess, with the 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:13.720 current financial system as it exists. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.199 Well, I think this is a great question because there's 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:20.319 sort of a debate about whether bitcoin is a currency 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.960 or is it an asset. I actually believe that first 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.040 it will be an asset before it turns into a 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.440 mainstream currency. And the reason is because it is going 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.040 up in value and your dollars are losing purchasing power. 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.880 So most people want to spend their dollars, which are 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.520 going to continue to get inflated and debates, and they 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.200 want to save in bitcoin. That makes sense to me, right, 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.920 So increasingly merchants, I think, are going to incentivize people 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.480 to try to spend their bitcoin because what do they want? 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.960 What does everyone want? They want to accumulate bitcoin. So 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.800 if you can get people to purchase whatever it may 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:56.679 be with bitcoin, I think we're going to see an 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.480 increase in that. We're already seeing places like one of 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.800 the most posts popular apartment rental companies in Los Angeles, 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.160 owned by Rick Caruso, they accept bitcoin for rent. More 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.560 and more companies are starting to say, hey, here's an option, 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.840 you can pay in bitcoin if you want to. But 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.480 a lot of especially hardcore bitcoiners, they don't want to 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.200 spend their bitcoin. They want to save it for the 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.160 future because there's only going to be twenty one million. 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.599 You want to race to accumulate as much as you 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.320 possibly can. But in the future, again, if this does 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.080 become more of a monetary standard, which I do see 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.440 a future WHEREK could be. Then I think that we 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.040 will see more and more commerce denominated and paid for 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:39.240 in bitcoin. Right now, though obviously governments are incentivized to 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.640 have their fiat currencies be the mediums of exchange. They 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.560 want to be able to tax people in their fiat 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.720 currencies and levy that as sort of the medium of 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.600 exchange that's accepted by decree, right But I think that 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.200 things are changing because governments have really abused their power 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.000 over money, which is why bitcoin exists in the first place. 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.160 And so it's going to be very hard to convince 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:06.040 people to save in a form of money that just 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.680 gets debased and inflated every single year. And that's what 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.960 I think we're seeing with US treasuries right now. We're 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.120 sort of in a between a rock and a hard 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.560 place because we need to keep expanding our debt. That's 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.720 how the whole system is now underpinned with these US treasuries. 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.480 But why would someone hold treasuries when the real rate 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.000 of return is negative because they keep inflating the money 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.280 supply far greater than the rate that you're earning an interest. 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:29.160 So that's a huge dilemma, and. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.680 There are historical realities of this happening in countries around 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.160 the world at different periods of time, where the currency 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.800 becomes so devalued the people are using the currency for 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.120 toilet paper, wallpaper, because it's more valuable in those ways 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.040 than it is to spend on stuff. You have to 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.040 have a billion dollars essentially in that currency to afford 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.360 a meal, and so even if you're incredibly rich, the 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.040 value of the currency gets deflated away so significantly that 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.880 people are living in poverty. I'm curious, so too, you 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.080 talk about the haves and have nots under the current system, 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.920 is there a possibility for a half and have nots 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.360 in the bitcoin system? Essentially early adopters first, late adopters, 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.560 because I just think about what's happened with the price 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.440 a bitcoin over the past ten years, and gosh, it 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.760 feels like that people who are thinking about getting in 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.479 now the price of skyrocketed so significantly. 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:17.560 Are they too late? 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.480 They're definitely not too late. It's still very early for 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.480 all of us in bitcoin. And this is actually one 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.680 of the things that's most empowering about this piece of technology. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.480 We've never had an asset like this whose total addressable 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.280 market is eight billion people. So yes, early adopters of 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:38.560 course benefit from the earliest massive price swings and appreciation. 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.040 But think think about the early adopters of Amazon stock, right, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.280 they're probably living in they're nice, they're nice mansions and 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.800 have their yachts and all that. But a kid in 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.680 a developing nation could not have purchased a share of 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.480 Amazon stock. They can't buy a fraction of a mansion 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.360 in Miami Beach and watches that appreciates, but they can 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.920 purchase a fraction of a bitcoin. And I think that again, 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.720 in the future, it's a system with a finite supply 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.480 where you have to provide value or expend resources in 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.200 order to get bitcoin. We've never had really something like 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.080 that that the whole world can buy it connected through 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.320 this digital economy, or work for it or earn it, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.080 and so it's going to be a constant I think 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.440 exchange of value around the world in a way we've 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.160 never seen. This is why I actually think that we're 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.920 going to enter an era of abundance and prosperity that 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.760 we haven't seen before, because at the base layer, we're 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.640 going to have a form of capital that no one 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.760 can manipulate and steal from under us. Like inflation is 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.120 a hidden tax, it just steals from us. Bitcoin does 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.800 the opposite. It reinforces the base layer of all of 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.520 our interactions through commerce, through business, through money in a 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.600 way that no one can cheat and manipulate. I think 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.920 that that will actually usher in the most opportunity for 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.880 the most amount of people. Well, the early adopters have benefited, sure, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.800 but there if they're going to want to you know, 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.239 live and eat and travel and all that, they're going 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.720 to have to spend their bitcoin eventually because someone's going 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:09.199 to say, hey, the only way you can get this 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.520 is if you pay me in bitcoin. Now we're talking 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.240 about a world probably you know, decades from now. I 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.760 think that the transition will take a long time because 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.199 dollars are still really entrenched in the whole global system, 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.359 and most debt is denominated in dollars and most people 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:27.000 transact in dollars. But I think over the long time horizon, 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:31.040 we will transition into this bitcoin standard because it's better 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.280 and most people will vote with their money. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.159 What do you think about stable coins? 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.679 I feel like there are more brokerages and investing firms 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.919 in I guess they're talking about those, it almost seems 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.120 like crypto light or Bitcoin light almost where it's just like, Okay, 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:48.680 you don't want to own the actual thing. 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:50.879 For a lot of folks, you can't stomach the swings 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:51.320 and price. 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:53.960 You're brand new to this, and so it's I guess, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.840 what are your thoughts about about some of these different 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:56.800 stable coins? 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:58.639 Sure, well, let's keep it really really simple. 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.680 A stable coin essentially, especially if you're talking about the 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.240 dollar back to stable coins, that is a digital dollar, 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.320 and what is the dollar designed to do. It's designed 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.160 to inflate and increase in supply. These stable coin companies, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.560 it's been a wild ride to watch because some of 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.720 them are now purchasing more US treasuries than entire countries, 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.199 like tether Tethers, I think the seventh largest buyer of 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.120 US treasuries. So they're essentially just printing money because they're 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.000 sitting on all those treasuries earning risk free interest, and 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.480 they're growing and I think that their profits for like 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.200 one hundred people in their entire company almost exceeded Goldman Sacks. 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.160 So it's wild right, and obviously US banks and US 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.920 companies are looking at this saying we want a piece 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.800 of this action. So that's really one of the priorities 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.480 Wall Street, the big banks. They want to be able 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.240 to issue their own stable coins, and the US dollar 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.920 wants to prioritize, or the US Congress and the US 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.560 government wants to prioritize this because they want to extend 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.320 dollar dominance. If you create more demand for the dollar 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.480 around the world, that benefits us, especially if these companies 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.360 are all backing the dollars with treasuries. What do we need. 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.159 We need buyers of treasuries. So I just see, you know, 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.199 stable coins as the future. It's a digital version of 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:14.920 the dollar backed by US treasuries. And I would never 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.159 save in a stable coin right because it's just going 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:18.480 to continue to get devalued. 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:19.400 But I think that it. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.080 Will be an entry point for a lot of people 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.479 as they start to use this technology and use crypto 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.280 rails in order to save in bitcoin, so, you know, 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.400 spend your dollars to spend your stable coins, but save 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:29.960 in bitcoin. 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.680 The price of bitcoin can fluctuate wildly, and some people 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.439 have said that it's essentially akin to when you look 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.919 at the movements of the stock market, Bitcoin mirrors the 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.760 S and P in some ways, but more extreme, And 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.560 so I could see why people who want are willing 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.200 to take greater levels of risk put more money into 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.399 bitcoin because they're hoping for greater reward. But that also 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.879 I think incentivizes people to speculate in bitcoin, especially with 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.560 inter day movements that can be significant. How do you 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.639 think about You're talking about holding bitcoin, holding it for 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.080 the long haul, and I think that has been a 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.120 mantra for a lot of people in the bitcoin space. 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.080 But then there are other people who say, I don't know. 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:11.800 I think I want to try to make some money 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.840 on a day to day basis, just kind of speculating 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.359 on where the price of bitcoin goes. How do you 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:16.879 think about that? 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:19.879 Yeah, so I'm not a day trader. I wish people 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:24.000 luck who day trade this asset because it is very volatile. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:29.040 I mean, obviously, you know, people can gamble at the 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:30.879 casino and make a huge amount of money or they 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.240