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Speaker 1: Welcome to Head of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt.

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Speaker 2: Today we're talking banking on bitcoin with Natalie Brunell.

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Speaker 1: That's right, so Joel. When we occasionally talk about bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: it's typically within the context.

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Speaker 3: Of investing, and like, even then, our approach is for

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Speaker 3: it to be a relatively small portion of our overall portfolio.

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Speaker 3: Could most folks do without it? We think that that's

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Speaker 3: the case. That's true, Like, don't overly focus on I

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Speaker 3: would say what we see as a more alternative investment

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Speaker 3: when you haven't even maxed out conventional retirement accounts. But

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Speaker 3: that is not at all how our guest, Natalie Brunell,

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Speaker 3: how she views bitcoin. Natalie sees it as this entirely

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Speaker 3: new system of money, a system that is incorruptible and

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Speaker 3: non partisan. In her words, bitcoin is egalitarian. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: benefit any race over another. It's the purest expression of

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Speaker 3: freedom and self determination. All of these things sound like

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Speaker 3: totally awesome. Yeah, And for over a decade Natalie was

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Speaker 3: an investigative journalist. She is now a predominant figure in

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Speaker 3: the bitcoin space. She's an influential educator. She's host of

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Speaker 3: the coin Stories podcast, where she dives in deep and

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Speaker 3: that is exactly what we're hoping to do some today

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Speaker 3: all about bitcoin. So, Natalie, thank you so much for

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Speaker 3: joining us today.

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Speaker 1: On the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. What a nice introduction.

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Speaker 1: We're glad to have you. Natalie.

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Speaker 2: So much to get to on this one. But first question,

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Speaker 2: what do you like to spourge on? Matt and I

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Speaker 2: sporge on beer, but hey, it's okay, we're saving and

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Speaker 2: investing simultaneously. What is your craft beer equivalent?

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Speaker 4: I like to splurge on trips to Italy. I have

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Speaker 4: an Italy obsession. A lot of people don't know that.

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Speaker 4: I actually studied journalism at Italian in college and I

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Speaker 4: try to find my way back to Italy every single

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Speaker 4: year I live there two years of college. I'm obsessed

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Speaker 4: with Italy and Italian culture. So they can take my money.

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Speaker 4: That country can just take my money.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: What is the most underrated city that that you think? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: just gets overlooked by most folks who you go to Italy?

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Speaker 4: Ooh, underrated? That's that's a tough one. I mean, my

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Speaker 4: favorite city's Florence because that's where I live. So I

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Speaker 4: love Tuscany and there are so many little towns that

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Speaker 4: you can discover and explore there. But I actually think

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Speaker 4: underrated would be the island of Sardinia. A lot of

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Speaker 4: people still haven't been there. It's got the most pristine,

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Speaker 4: tranquil turquoise water that you'll ever see, and not as

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Speaker 4: many tourists, so it still feels a little bit like

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Speaker 4: that raw, rugged Italian that you read about in history books.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really I want to swim in.

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Speaker 2: I'm putting that on my list now that I'm curious

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Speaker 2: you you're a first generation immigrant. Your parents struggles they

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Speaker 2: seem to impact the way you think about money even today.

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Speaker 2: How what sort of influence has has, like your family history.

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Speaker 1: Had on you.

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Speaker 4: Sure? So, I think that so many of our belief

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Speaker 4: systems and our values are shaped very early. And for me,

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Speaker 4: I grew up with a fear of financial insecurity, and

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Speaker 4: I was really determined to succeed because I watched how

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Speaker 4: difficult it was for my parents to sort of to

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Speaker 4: sort to bring our family to this country and to

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Speaker 4: just create what would be like a middle class life here.

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Speaker 4: They just they struggled so much. It was first very

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Speaker 4: difficult to be able to come. They grew up under

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Speaker 4: communism and They waited every single year to see if

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Speaker 4: they want a visa lottery to be able to come,

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Speaker 4: and once they got here, you know, they didn't know

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Speaker 4: the language. They had to start over. We lived in

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Speaker 4: a tiny apartment. I grew up around people that were

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Speaker 4: much more financially comfortable than us. And once they were

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Speaker 4: finally able to purchase a small townhouse, I went off

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Speaker 4: to college and a couple of years later, the Great

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Speaker 4: Financial Crisis hit and they were suddenly bankrupt and moving

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Speaker 4: into a tiny, one droom and I just thought, how

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Speaker 4: the heck can this happen in a country that's supposed

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Speaker 4: to represent the American dream that you know, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: matter where you come from, if you work hard, you

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Speaker 4: can achieve something. And I felt like the game was rigged.

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Speaker 4: I felt like the rules were were in favor of

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Speaker 4: the people at the top, and so I became I

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Speaker 4: became an investigative reporter, honestly because I wanted to hold

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Speaker 4: the powerful accountable. And I was very much in like

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Speaker 4: the tax the Rich movement. I thought that the way

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Speaker 4: to fix this is for government to reach in and

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Speaker 4: redistribute the wealth and punish the greedy people and give

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Speaker 4: it back to the working class, And I came at

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Speaker 4: this view from a fundamental misunderstanding of how economics works,

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Speaker 4: how our money is actually even issued, and the broken

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Speaker 4: incentives at the base layer of this system. And I

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Speaker 4: didn't learn about any of that until bitcoins. So Bitcoin

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Speaker 4: for me was actually a transformative journey of better understanding

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Speaker 4: the entire financial system, what money actually is, and why

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Speaker 4: so many people feel left behind and add a disadvantage

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Speaker 4: even if they're working harder than ever. And I really

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Speaker 4: think that bitcoin is the best possible solution we have

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Speaker 4: before us.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I feel like you're segueing very nicely into how

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Speaker 3: it is that you became a bitcoin believer, because like,

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Speaker 3: there are plenty of folks out there who graduated into

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Speaker 3: the throes of the Great Recession and even would look

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Speaker 3: to the government, right, and like as you peel back

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Speaker 3: the layers and you're like, Okay, how did this come about?

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Speaker 3: Like what caused there to be so many banks who

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Speaker 3: are then willing to lend to underqualified borrowers?

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Speaker 1: A lot of different theses on that team.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But at the same time, I think there's a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of folks who would say, well, I don't

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Speaker 3: know if bitcoin is necessarily the answer here. How did

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Speaker 3: you kind of come around to essentially believing in bitcoin?

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Speaker 4: Well, I just I really didn't know what money was.

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Speaker 4: I didn't think about it, and I didn't I didn't

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Speaker 4: question something that is a reality for all of us,

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Speaker 4: which is that things get more expensive every single year,

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Speaker 4: at least the things that you need most, right, housing, education,

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Speaker 4: your groceries. And maybe they don't go up so significantly

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Speaker 4: that everyone's protesting in the streets or running around calling

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Speaker 4: out how many more dollars each thing costs each year.

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Speaker 4: But if you step back, you zoom out, you notice

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Speaker 4: this trend, everything just climbing up in prices. And I

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Speaker 4: never connected that with the expansion of our money supply.

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Speaker 4: They basically tell you that inflation is necessary. That's what

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Speaker 4: you're sort of taught. Inflation is necessary. It stimulates the economy.

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Speaker 4: If we didn't have inflation, the whole thing would collapse.

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Speaker 4: And it was it was not until bitcoin that I

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Speaker 4: actually started to question that, why do we have to

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Speaker 4: have a form of money that expands and therefore dilutes

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Speaker 4: everyone who's holding it. And there's a real thing that

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Speaker 4: I think everyone should study, which is the Cantalon effect

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Speaker 4: that the people who get to issue more of this money,

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Speaker 4: and the people who are clicking the strokes of keys

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Speaker 4: that actually expand the monetary units, they benefit the most,

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Speaker 4: and the people around them benefit the most. If you're

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Speaker 4: close to the money printer, So if you're the big banks,

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Speaker 4: if you are the special interest groups that get first

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Speaker 4: access to the money, or the big corporations that get

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Speaker 4: to borrow it really ridiculously low interest rates, you benefit

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Speaker 4: from those freshly minted dollars. And as you go downstream,

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Speaker 4: us the working class, we benefit it from it the least,

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Speaker 4: and in fact, it disenfranchises a lot of people. It

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Speaker 4: destroys our purchasing power and our savings, and so over

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Speaker 4: the long you know, timeline of this type of activity

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Speaker 4: and manipulation with our money, we see people who can

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Speaker 4: no longer save. They've they've played by all the rules,

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Speaker 4: they've worked hard, they've saved up, and yet they can't

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Speaker 4: afford retirement, or to have a family, or to help

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Speaker 4: their you know, to get out of a medical situation

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Speaker 4: that came up. There's something fundamentally broken with that, and

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Speaker 4: that's what I think we need a question if we're

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Speaker 4: going to have a monetary system that's going to expand

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Speaker 4: continuously and lose value. Well, we need to be able

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Speaker 4: to save in something that doesn't. We need the opposite

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Speaker 4: of that for us to be able to save for

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Speaker 4: the future. And I believe bitcoin to be the best

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Speaker 4: asset because it is completely decentralized and it is immune

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Speaker 4: to inflation. It is scarce and finite, and no one

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Speaker 4: can ever print more of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the finite reality of bitcoin, I think is certainly

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Speaker 2: one of the key selling points. I'm curious to dive

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Speaker 2: deeper on inflation for just a second. How real of

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Speaker 2: a problem is inflation in your mind? Because, as let's say,

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Speaker 2: we've experienced it more viscerally in recent years, but aren't

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Speaker 2: asset prices and incomes typically both going up? Right, So

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Speaker 2: it's prices, but also people earn more. So why is

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Speaker 2: inflation such a problem in your mind?

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Speaker 4: So I actually think this is the biggest problem facing

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Speaker 4: the working class. And again I didn't recognize it until bitcoin.

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Speaker 4: So I think we're under this illusion of growth and expansion.

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Speaker 4: They tell you that CPI is two percent, and for

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Speaker 4: the most part, CPI is because CPI, the consumer price

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Speaker 4: index is it's a measure that can be highly manipulated,

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Speaker 4: and it has changed. If people actually dig into what

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Speaker 4: goes in the metrics that go into CPI, it has

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Speaker 4: changed drastically over the last few decades. So it accounts

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Speaker 4: for things like, okay, well, if a car, for example,

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Speaker 4: is getting more expensive, Oh wait, but it has some

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Speaker 4: new technology. You can you know, your your music's now

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Speaker 4: more digital, or you have a GPS built in. So

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Speaker 4: we're going to negate that inflation because the technical components

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Speaker 4: are a little bit better. Oh wait, you know, steak

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Speaker 4: got more expensive. A lot of people are choosing not

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Speaker 4: to even buy stak. They're actually turning to chicken. So

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Speaker 4: we're going to actually put chicken into the basket instead

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Speaker 4: of steak. So they manipulate the basket to tell you

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Speaker 4: inflation is two percent. Meanwhile, the rate at which the

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Speaker 4: money is actually expanding, if you measure it by M two,

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Speaker 4: which is the kind of agreed upon index for monetary supply,

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Speaker 4: it's actually increasing between six and eight percent annually. So

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Speaker 4: if you are not getting a raise of eight nine percent,

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Speaker 4: you are actually just keeping up with the rate at

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Speaker 4: which they're expanding the money supply. A lot of people,

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Speaker 4: again don't realize that, and so yes, assets have been

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Speaker 4: going up because that's where money tends to go. And

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Speaker 4: who has the majority of assets Wealthy people, Right, Wealthy

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Speaker 4: people hold the majority of the assets. And so when

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Speaker 4: they manipulate interest rates down, which they did for basically

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Speaker 4: two decades, and when they expand the money supply, the

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Speaker 4: first recipients of that money, they tend to do things

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Speaker 4: like buyback shares of stock, they manipulate essentially real estate prib.

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Speaker 4: They go into real estate, they buy real estate. So

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Speaker 4: all of this is affecting the very things that the

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Speaker 4: working class can no longer afford because their wages are

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Speaker 4: only going up by about three point nine percent. So

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Speaker 4: this is actually something I wrote about wrote about in

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Speaker 4: my book that's coming out this fall. Bitcoin is for Everyone.

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Speaker 4: I wrote about how how money supply expansion is moving

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Speaker 4: at a much faster rate than wages, which is why

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Speaker 4: so many people feel like they can never catch up

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Speaker 4: because yes, they're getting a raise, but when you zoom

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Speaker 4: out again, the money supply is growing much faster than

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Speaker 4: their wages are. And so that's why I think the

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Speaker 4: working class is sitting there going, yeah, why don't you

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Speaker 4: tax the rich because they've got all the stuff. We're

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Speaker 4: working harder than ever. We don't have anything, and we

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Speaker 4: don't know how to take care of our families, and

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Speaker 4: I think that's why we've become so polarized politically. But

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Speaker 4: it's really two sides of the same coin. It's a

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Speaker 4: broken monetary system and red blue left right. It's not

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Speaker 4: going to fix it until we fix the money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder too if that's it seems like we've

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Speaker 3: seen a divide among classes.

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Speaker 1: Too, as opposed to just blue versus red.

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Speaker 3: But like, you're highly need the problem here inflation. But

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Speaker 3: practically speaking, though, how are you actually using US dollars?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: Because you can say that, oh, this is ideally what

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Speaker 3: we'd moved towards, and you know, when it comes to like,

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Speaker 3: I guess bitcoin as an actual currency, but you can't

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Speaker 3: use bitcoin to actually pay for groceries at the grocery

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Speaker 3: store that you're talking about that are going up in price.

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Speaker 3: Practically speaking, how are you interacting, I guess, with the

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Speaker 3: current financial system as it exists.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think this is a great question because there's

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Speaker 4: sort of a debate about whether bitcoin is a currency

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Speaker 4: or is it an asset. I actually believe that first

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Speaker 4: it will be an asset before it turns into a

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Speaker 4: mainstream currency. And the reason is because it is going

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Speaker 4: up in value and your dollars are losing purchasing power.

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Speaker 4: So most people want to spend their dollars, which are

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Speaker 4: going to continue to get inflated and debates, and they

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Speaker 4: want to save in bitcoin. That makes sense to me, right,

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Speaker 4: So increasingly merchants, I think, are going to incentivize people

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Speaker 4: to try to spend their bitcoin because what do they want?

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Speaker 4: What does everyone want? They want to accumulate bitcoin. So

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Speaker 4: if you can get people to purchase whatever it may

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Speaker 4: be with bitcoin, I think we're going to see an

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Speaker 4: increase in that. We're already seeing places like one of

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Speaker 4: the most posts popular apartment rental companies in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 4: owned by Rick Caruso, they accept bitcoin for rent. More

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Speaker 4: and more companies are starting to say, hey, here's an option,

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Speaker 4: you can pay in bitcoin if you want to. But

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Speaker 4: a lot of especially hardcore bitcoiners, they don't want to

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Speaker 4: spend their bitcoin. They want to save it for the

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Speaker 4: future because there's only going to be twenty one million.

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Speaker 4: You want to race to accumulate as much as you

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Speaker 4: possibly can. But in the future, again, if this does

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Speaker 4: become more of a monetary standard, which I do see

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Speaker 4: a future WHEREK could be. Then I think that we

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Speaker 4: will see more and more commerce denominated and paid for

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Speaker 4: in bitcoin. Right now, though obviously governments are incentivized to

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Speaker 4: have their fiat currencies be the mediums of exchange. They

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Speaker 4: want to be able to tax people in their fiat

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Speaker 4: currencies and levy that as sort of the medium of

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Speaker 4: exchange that's accepted by decree, right But I think that

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Speaker 4: things are changing because governments have really abused their power

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Speaker 4: over money, which is why bitcoin exists in the first place.

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Speaker 4: And so it's going to be very hard to convince

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Speaker 4: people to save in a form of money that just

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Speaker 4: gets debased and inflated every single year. And that's what

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Speaker 4: I think we're seeing with US treasuries right now. We're

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Speaker 4: sort of in a between a rock and a hard

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Speaker 4: place because we need to keep expanding our debt. That's

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Speaker 4: how the whole system is now underpinned with these US treasuries.

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Speaker 4: But why would someone hold treasuries when the real rate

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Speaker 4: of return is negative because they keep inflating the money

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Speaker 4: supply far greater than the rate that you're earning an interest.

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Speaker 4: So that's a huge dilemma, and.

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Speaker 2: There are historical realities of this happening in countries around

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Speaker 2: the world at different periods of time, where the currency

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Speaker 2: becomes so devalued the people are using the currency for

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Speaker 2: toilet paper, wallpaper, because it's more valuable in those ways

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Speaker 2: than it is to spend on stuff. You have to

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Speaker 2: have a billion dollars essentially in that currency to afford

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Speaker 2: a meal, and so even if you're incredibly rich, the

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Speaker 2: value of the currency gets deflated away so significantly that

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Speaker 2: people are living in poverty. I'm curious, so too, you

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Speaker 2: talk about the haves and have nots under the current system,

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Speaker 2: is there a possibility for a half and have nots

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Speaker 2: in the bitcoin system? Essentially early adopters first, late adopters,

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Speaker 2: because I just think about what's happened with the price

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Speaker 2: a bitcoin over the past ten years, and gosh, it

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Speaker 2: feels like that people who are thinking about getting in

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Speaker 2: now the price of skyrocketed so significantly.

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Speaker 1: Are they too late?

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Speaker 4: They're definitely not too late. It's still very early for

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Speaker 4: all of us in bitcoin. And this is actually one

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Speaker 4: of the things that's most empowering about this piece of technology.

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Speaker 4: We've never had an asset like this whose total addressable

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Speaker 4: market is eight billion people. So yes, early adopters of

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Speaker 4: course benefit from the earliest massive price swings and appreciation.

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Speaker 4: But think think about the early adopters of Amazon stock, right,

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Speaker 4: they're probably living in they're nice, they're nice mansions and

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Speaker 4: have their yachts and all that. But a kid in

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Speaker 4: a developing nation could not have purchased a share of

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Speaker 4: Amazon stock. They can't buy a fraction of a mansion

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Speaker 4: in Miami Beach and watches that appreciates, but they can

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Speaker 4: purchase a fraction of a bitcoin. And I think that again,

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Speaker 4: in the future, it's a system with a finite supply

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Speaker 4: where you have to provide value or expend resources in

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Speaker 4: order to get bitcoin. We've never had really something like

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Speaker 4: that that the whole world can buy it connected through

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Speaker 4: this digital economy, or work for it or earn it,

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Speaker 4: and so it's going to be a constant I think

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Speaker 4: exchange of value around the world in a way we've

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Speaker 4: never seen. This is why I actually think that we're

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Speaker 4: going to enter an era of abundance and prosperity that

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Speaker 4: we haven't seen before, because at the base layer, we're

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Speaker 4: going to have a form of capital that no one

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Speaker 4: can manipulate and steal from under us. Like inflation is

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Speaker 4: a hidden tax, it just steals from us. Bitcoin does

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Speaker 4: the opposite. It reinforces the base layer of all of

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Speaker 4: our interactions through commerce, through business, through money in a

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Speaker 4: way that no one can cheat and manipulate. I think

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Speaker 4: that that will actually usher in the most opportunity for

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Speaker 4: the most amount of people. Well, the early adopters have benefited, sure,

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Speaker 4: but there if they're going to want to you know,

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Speaker 4: live and eat and travel and all that, they're going

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Speaker 4: to have to spend their bitcoin eventually because someone's going

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Speaker 4: to say, hey, the only way you can get this

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Speaker 4: is if you pay me in bitcoin. Now we're talking

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Speaker 4: about a world probably you know, decades from now. I

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Speaker 4: think that the transition will take a long time because

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Speaker 4: dollars are still really entrenched in the whole global system,

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Speaker 4: and most debt is denominated in dollars and most people

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Speaker 4: transact in dollars. But I think over the long time horizon,

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Speaker 4: we will transition into this bitcoin standard because it's better

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Speaker 4: and most people will vote with their money.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about stable coins?

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Speaker 3: I feel like there are more brokerages and investing firms

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Speaker 3: in I guess they're talking about those, it almost seems

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Speaker 3: like crypto light or Bitcoin light almost where it's just like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: you don't want to own the actual thing.

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Speaker 2: For a lot of folks, you can't stomach the swings

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Speaker 2: and price.

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Speaker 3: You're brand new to this, and so it's I guess,

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Speaker 3: what are your thoughts about about some of these different

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Speaker 3: stable coins?

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Speaker 5: Sure, well, let's keep it really really simple.

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Speaker 4: A stable coin essentially, especially if you're talking about the

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Speaker 4: dollar back to stable coins, that is a digital dollar,

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Speaker 4: and what is the dollar designed to do. It's designed

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Speaker 4: to inflate and increase in supply. These stable coin companies,

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Speaker 4: it's been a wild ride to watch because some of

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Speaker 4: them are now purchasing more US treasuries than entire countries,

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Speaker 4: like tether Tethers, I think the seventh largest buyer of

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Speaker 4: US treasuries. So they're essentially just printing money because they're

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Speaker 4: sitting on all those treasuries earning risk free interest, and

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Speaker 4: they're growing and I think that their profits for like

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Speaker 4: one hundred people in their entire company almost exceeded Goldman Sacks.

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Speaker 4: So it's wild right, and obviously US banks and US

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Speaker 4: companies are looking at this saying we want a piece

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Speaker 4: of this action. So that's really one of the priorities

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Speaker 4: Wall Street, the big banks. They want to be able

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Speaker 4: to issue their own stable coins, and the US dollar

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Speaker 4: wants to prioritize, or the US Congress and the US

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Speaker 4: government wants to prioritize this because they want to extend

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Speaker 4: dollar dominance. If you create more demand for the dollar

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Speaker 4: around the world, that benefits us, especially if these companies

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Speaker 4: are all backing the dollars with treasuries. What do we need.

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Speaker 4: We need buyers of treasuries. So I just see, you know,

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Speaker 4: stable coins as the future. It's a digital version of

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Speaker 4: the dollar backed by US treasuries. And I would never

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Speaker 4: save in a stable coin right because it's just going

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Speaker 4: to continue to get devalued.

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Speaker 5: But I think that it.

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Speaker 4: Will be an entry point for a lot of people

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Speaker 4: as they start to use this technology and use crypto

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Speaker 4: rails in order to save in bitcoin, so, you know,

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Speaker 4: spend your dollars to spend your stable coins, but save

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Speaker 4: in bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: The price of bitcoin can fluctuate wildly, and some people

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Speaker 2: have said that it's essentially akin to when you look

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Speaker 2: at the movements of the stock market, Bitcoin mirrors the

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Speaker 2: S and P in some ways, but more extreme, And

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Speaker 2: so I could see why people who want are willing

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Speaker 2: to take greater levels of risk put more money into

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Speaker 2: bitcoin because they're hoping for greater reward. But that also

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Speaker 2: I think incentivizes people to speculate in bitcoin, especially with

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Speaker 2: inter day movements that can be significant. How do you

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Speaker 2: think about You're talking about holding bitcoin, holding it for

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Speaker 2: the long haul, and I think that has been a

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Speaker 2: mantra for a lot of people in the bitcoin space.

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Speaker 2: But then there are other people who say, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think I want to try to make some money

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Speaker 2: on a day to day basis, just kind of speculating

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Speaker 2: on where the price of bitcoin goes. How do you

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Speaker 2: think about that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm not a day trader. I wish people

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Speaker 4: luck who day trade this asset because it is very volatile.

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Speaker 4: I mean, obviously, you know, people can gamble at the

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Speaker 4: casino and make a huge amount of money or they

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Speaker 4: can lose a lot. So I don't recommend day trading.

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Speaker 4: I especially don't do not recommend recommend using leverage because

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Speaker 4: there can be very significant swings that wash people out,

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Speaker 4: so be careful. This is a long term hold strategy

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Speaker 4: for me. I think that if you understand bitcoin. If

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Speaker 4: you've taken the time to really study this asset class

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Speaker 4: in network, then you have a longer time horizon and

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Speaker 4: you don't look at the everyday price wings. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I'm at the point where when bitcoin dips like it

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Speaker 4: has been over the last few weeks, I get excited.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, oh my gosh, mo and my target buy

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Speaker 4: orders just got execute because bitcoin dropped. This is an

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Speaker 4: excellent place to just add a little bit more. And

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Speaker 4: I actually celebrate the dips as an opportunity. Now that,

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Speaker 4: obviously for a newcomer, is very, very scary. You have

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Speaker 4: to really learn about bitcoin before you can stomach the volatility,

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Speaker 4: and I certainly was not ready to do that at

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Speaker 4: the very beginning. I was extremely skeptical, and when it

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Speaker 4: made price wings, I thought, oh my gosh, any day

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Speaker 4: it's going to go to zero. But that was coming

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Speaker 4: from my ignorance about what it really was that I

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Speaker 4: was investing in. And nothing does that for you other

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Speaker 4: than just taking the time to study it. So volatility

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Speaker 4: doesn't bother me. In fact, I think that it can

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Speaker 4: really be, as they say, a feature, not a bug,

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Speaker 4: in the sense that volatility can increase your sharp ratio

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Speaker 4: and actually increase your returns across a portfolio that's very diversified,

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Speaker 4: even if you just add a tiny bit of bitcoin.

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Speaker 4: And you can see that when you look at tools

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Speaker 4: like the Knackomoto portfolio, or you look at statistics from

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Speaker 4: I believe Preston Pish was the first person to note

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Speaker 4: that if you had just invested ninety eight percent cash

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Speaker 4: and two percent bitcoin over the four year cycle between

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00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 4: twenty twenty and like twenty twenty four, you would have

435
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 4: outperformed the S and P five hundred and anybody outperformed.

436
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 5: So isn't that crazy?

437
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a little really does go a long way.

438
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 4: And I don't think it's going to be a question of, oh,

439
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 4: do you own bitcoin in a portfolio? You know, five

440
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 4: years from now, it's going to be how much do

441
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 4: you own? Is it two percent or is it more?

442
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 4: In my opinion, it's going to be closer to like

443
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 4: is it ten twenty fifty percent of your portfolio?

444
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 3: All Right, you're getting into, like, I guess, the practical

445
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 3: side of things, Like you've made the best case for

446
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 3: it from like a very high level why our current

447
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: system is broken. But Natalie, we've got more questions to

448
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 3: get to we are going to talk about more of

449
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 3: the pragmatic practical steps when it comes to implementing bitcoin

450
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,479
Speaker 3: into our portfolios. We'll get to that more right after this.

451
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 1: All right, we're back.

452
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: We're still talking about bitcoin with Natalie Brunell, who know

453
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 3: a lot about bitcoin, and Natalie. Matt is ready to

454
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: take the red pill or whatever color pills or I

455
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 3: should have done that, I should have done that. He's

456
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 3: so ready. Let's see if he takes it by the

457
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 3: end of this episode. Maybe I maybe I I've secretly

458
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 3: been micro do saying orange pill over the past four years.

459
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: All right, I'm curious. So you kind of talked about

460
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: just briefly there, how you think about when you buy

461
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: more bitcoin? And it sounds like you have metrics in

462
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 2: place to say that are predetermined instead of on a

463
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: given day letting your emotions get ahead of you and say,

464
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: all I think I'm going to buy some bitcoin now

465
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: because oh dropped eight percent. Do you have predetermined measures?

466
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: How are you are you dollar cost averaging into bitcoin?

467
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 2: How do you think about when and how much bitcoin you,

468
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: you know, increase in your holdings?

469
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 4: I buy bitcoin every single day. I dollar cost average

470
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 4: every day Yeah, I have a DCA setup for daily buys.

471
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 4: It's great because you know a lot of the platforms

472
00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 4: if you do a d C eight, there are no

473
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 4: like I buy on River, no fees if you buy daily, weekly, monthly, whatever.

474
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 5: So that's great.

475
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 4: And I just figure I'm going to spend ten dollars

476
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 4: on like a coffee if I walk out the door,

477
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 4: why not put ten dollars or whatever out you're comfortable

478
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 4: with and in bitcoin, and a little again goes a

479
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 4: long way. I also just find ways to earn bitcoin

480
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 4: in any way I can. So I accept bitcoin from

481
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 4: people that I partner with or my sponsors.

482
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 5: I use bitcoin.

483
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 4: Reward credit cards so that I earn bitcoin back instead

484
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 4: of like airline miles and hotel points that inflate at

485
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 4: forty percent a year.

486
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 5: I don't know if you knew that, but that's a fact.

487
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: Hey, what's the best bitcoin rewards credit card.

488
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: In your opinion?

489
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 4: So Gemini dot Com Slash Natalie that's a great one,

490
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 4: and also Fold. They haven't released THEIRS yet, but they're

491
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 4: coming out with one, but I highly recommend Geminis because

492
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 4: THEIRS is out right now. But I also do target buys,

493
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 4: so I watch macro very closely. If you watch my show,

494
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 4: you know, I bring on analysts who are both bullish

495
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 4: and bearish on everything that is happening in the economy,

496
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 4: and when there's a great amount of signal that hey,

497
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 4: we might crash soon, I create some target buy orders

498
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 4: online where I say, okay, if bitcoin drops to seventy

499
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 4: k I'm going to purchase this amount of bitcoin. And

500
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 4: so those are just sitting there, and while the money's

501
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 4: sitting there, I'm actually earning interest in bitcoin on my account.

502
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 4: So it's like a win win across the board. And

503
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 4: maybe that buy order never gets executed. But recently someone

504
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 4: by buy orders were because we crashed down to seventy

505
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 4: something thousand.

506
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 2: How did you deal with the crypto winter as it were? Right,

507
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: we're extended downturn in bitcoin.

508
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: Values that and for some people, I think Natalie just

509
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 3: kept buying Joel, did you have a digit?

510
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: Were you buying every day? Because some people were saying

511
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: this might be the end? Is this the time that

512
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: bitcoin gets unproven, that thesa gets gets unproven? Were you

513
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: were you doubting or were you were you just buying

514
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: like normal?

515
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 4: You know, I said on a recent show that I'm

516
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 4: so grateful for that crypto winter, because I thought at

517
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 4: the time that we were going to sail away to

518
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 4: one hundred fifty two hundred K, and it is harder

519
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 4: to accumulate when the price per coin is that much, right,

520
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 4: But having an almost eighty percent, I believe I forgot

521
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 4: the total it drew down in the bottom of the

522
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 4: bear market. That was actually a gift to those of

523
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: us who have put in the time and the work,

524
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 4: because yes, I was buying. I thought that it was

525
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 4: going to go down to ten K, and I was

526
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 4: going to load up as much as I possibly could

527
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 4: with any savings that I had.

528
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was.

529
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 4: I was buying all the way down the bear market,

530
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 4: and it was kind of one of those first times

531
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: where I realized that I now understand the age old

532
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 4: investment advice that you should you buy when there's blood

533
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 4: in the streets, you should buy when there's all the fear,

534
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 4: And I never really understood that, and I was always

535
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 4: scared of that paradigm. But because I had put in

536
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 4: so much work with bitcoin, and I was highly convicted

537
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 4: and had sort of the evidence and the years of

538
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 4: studying to back that up, I felt comfortable buying the

539
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,479
Speaker 4: dip as hard as I possibly could, so I'm very

540
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 4: grateful for the crypto winter. I don't think we'll ever

541
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 4: see prices below fifty thousand. I'd be shocked if we did.

542
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 4: And yet we're still so early. Going back to that

543
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 4: earlier point of at one hundred thousand dollars per bitcoin,

544
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 4: which we have retreated from. That's a two trillion dollar

545
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 4: asset class. That's tiny compared to the other asset classes

546
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 4: that we're essentially competing with, which are gold at twenty trillion,

547
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 4: equities at one hundred trillion, real estate at hundreds of trillions,

548
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 4: and bonds at hundreds of trillions. And I think that

549
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 4: over time Bitcoin will demonetize these other asset classes, and

550
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 4: to what extent I don't know, but I would feel

551
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 4: comfortable projecting that in a few decades we're at fifty

552
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 4: trillion market cap, if not one hundred trillion.

553
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 3: All right by now, Joel, I'm just thinking about Natalie

554
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 3: literally buying daily, so she truly is that's like averaging

555
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 3: to the extreme. She really is microdosing. Yeah, yeah, on bitcoin.

556
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 3: And now, well you mentioned that you're buying. You've got

557
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 3: these daily orders set up on River like, what's the

558
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 3: difference when it comes to practically owning bitcoin. You've got

559
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 3: different brokerages. I've purchased bitcoin over on robin Hood before.

560
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 3: But then you've got folks who talk about cold storage wallets,

561
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: and if you don't own you have your own wallet,

562
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: it's not really your bitcoin talk to us about because

563
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 3: I think that's a barrier.

564
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 2: ETFs are another option for people.

565
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: Now, it's sure, right, yeah, but I guess, and so

566
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 3: you've got all these different ways to get into holding

567
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: actual actual bitcoin, But I guess I'm curious specifically between

568
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 3: buying bitcoin with a brokerage like robin Hood or in

569
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 3: your case, River versus folks who've got like a cold

570
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: storage wallet.

571
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: Well, the great thing is optionality. I really think that

572
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 4: the more ways that people can buy and interact with

573
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 4: bitcoin the better, and then people will choose based on

574
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,479
Speaker 4: their risk tolerance and things like convenience. Unfortunately, right, so

575
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 4: recently the rules were changed in the memo from the

576
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 4: SEC was changed so that banks can actually start custding bitcoin.

577
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 4: And we're not there yet, but once the really big

578
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 4: banks like Chase and Wells Fargo and all of them

579
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 4: start offering bitcoin, I'm pretty sure a lot of people

580
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 4: coming in will say, well, why would I go to

581
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 4: some small crypto exchange when I could just buy at

582
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 4: my bank right now. The thing that I think people

583
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 4: should just be aware of is it is important to

584
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 4: do your homework with bitcoin because it's unlike any other

585
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 4: asset in that it is a bare instrument that is

586
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 4: intended to remove all counterparty risks. So you can actually

587
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 4: take self custody of your bitcoin. You can purchase a

588
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 4: cold storage wallet, or create a multi key situation, a

589
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 4: multi sig scheme to basically decentralize and diversify your points

590
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 4: of failure or risk so that you don't have one

591
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 4: key accessing your bitcoin. Some people are willing to learn

592
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 4: about that process, which I really encourage. I don't think

593
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 4: it's difficult or technical, and others are saying, no, I

594
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 4: don't want to manage my own keys. I don't want

595
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 4: to have to worry about that. I'd rather just keep

596
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 4: it at a bank or buy exposure to bitcoin, not

597
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: really the underlying asset through one of the ETFs. I

598
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 4: think this is just a really personal choice, and I'm

599
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 4: a huge believer in the market, so I'm not going

600
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 4: to dictate to you.

601
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 5: What's right for you.

602
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 4: I think that you know, there's sometimes technology barriers and

603
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 4: depending on what age you are, that kind of informs

604
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 4: what you're willing to do. But let me just tell you,

605
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 4: anyone can take self custody. If you don't know how

606
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: to do it, there are great one on one personalized

607
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 4: services that walk you through it, like the Bitcoin Way.

608
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 4: The Bitcoin Way had an eighty two year old customer

609
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 4: recently takes self custody of their bitcoin. Like literally, anyone

610
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 4: can do it, So I recommend it just because then

611
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 4: you remove all counterparty risk. You're not trusting a bank,

612
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: you're not trusting inn exchange or an institution. The bitcoin

613
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 4: is fully owned by you. It can never be confiscated,

614
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 4: and you can create multiple keys, and you know, you

615
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 4: can have a situation within a state planner that you

616
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 4: will your keys to your children. All of that can

617
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: be set up. It's just what are you willing to

618
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 4: do and how much time are you willing to take

619
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 4: to learn about how to do it.

620
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: What's your take on other cryptocurrencies? And there have even

621
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: been alternative cryptocurrency. The ETS announced too coming down the

622
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: pike saying hey, we're gonna have actually an ETF that

623
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: offers exposure to a range of crypto and because you

624
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: seem so bitcoin centric specifically, and yet there are like

625
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: what hundreds of cryptocurrencies that exist, thousands, thousands, and some

626
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: of which are based on memes, jokes, some of which

627
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: seem like don't have any They don't seem to be

628
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: equivalent to Bitcoin in any way, form or fashion. How

629
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: do you think about the whole cryptocurrency space? Bitcoin gets

630
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 2: lumped in as a cryptocurrency, but it seems also to

631
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: be really unique.

632
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 4: Yes, Bitcoin is very special. It is unlike all the rest.

633
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 4: And I know that for a newcomer it might sound like, oh, well,

634
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 4: you're just pumping your own bags. I went through that

635
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: whole journey. So first, let me just say, if you're

636
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 4: new to the space and you're looking at it and

637
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 4: you don't really see the difference, I was right there

638
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: with you. In twenty seventeen, I bought a bunch of

639
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 4: the other tokens. I thought, oh, well, these are cheaper,

640
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 4: and I could pick up a bunch of these for

641
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 4: in less than a penny. I was looking at it

642
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: from kind of a gambling mentality and honestly just totally

643
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 4: speculating and then it took me years to really wrap

644
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 4: my head around bitcoin and how beautiful and technically perfectly

645
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 4: engineered the consensus mechanism the mining actually is. It is

646
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 4: a commodity, a digital commodity that is backed by energy

647
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: and math that no one can manipulate or hack or compromise.

648
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: It is really really special. We've never had anything like this,

649
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 4: and bitcoin is the only thing that could serve as

650
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 4: a reserve grade asset or as a new base layer

651
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 4: for a monetary system, whereas everything else I really see

652
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 4: as an industry of mainly digital equities. I do not

653
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 4: want my money to have a CEO. I think it

654
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 4: was totally selfless and amazing that Satoshi Nakamoto walked away

655
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 4: from bitcoin, never revealing his or her identity, and also

656
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 4: never extracting a profit or creating some sort of foundation

657
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 4: or trying to market his token. He just created it

658
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 4: and sort of gave it to the world to organically

659
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 4: succeed or fail. And I think that that's incredible.

660
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 5: I mean he could have, right, I mean we could.

661
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 4: So Toshi could be someone that tried to have a

662
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: bitcoin company and a face in front of it and

663
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 4: tell you, like, you know what the plans are in

664
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 4: the future, and that's what we see with a lot

665
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 4: of the other tokens. We see founders, we see vcs,

666
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 4: we see foundations, and I don't trust people. The point

667
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 4: of bitcoin is I don't have to trust any of

668
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 4: these people. I don't have to worry about ten years

669
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 4: from now if one of them decides to change the

670
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 4: code or propose something different. None of that risk exists

671
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 4: in bitcoin, which makes it truly unique. And I just

672
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 4: urge people to be careful with crypto because everything falls

673
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 4: against bitcoin. I just urge you to take any token

674
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 4: that you're looking at, price it in bitcoin, and you

675
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 4: will see it just crashing to zero. And that's what

676
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 4: I think people should pay more attention to, because yes,

677
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 4: you can get lucky in the short term, but if

678
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 4: you do sell it and buy bitcoin's that's what I think.

679
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: Joel.

680
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: Doesn't this sound like something that Satoshi would actually say herself?

681
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: Is it?

682
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 4: Well?

683
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 3: Now, like you talked about it being perfectly designed, Like

684
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 3: speak to that, like I guess the security aspect of bitcoin.

685
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: You say that it's it's perfectly secure, But what about

686
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 3: we're reading a little bit more about the advent of

687
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 3: quantum computing and just what some of these computers are

688
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: are capable of. Do you, I guess does that not

689
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 3: concern you at all?

690
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 5: It does not.

691
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 4: I've actually looked into this for the last couple of

692
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 4: months because all of a sudden there was a new way.

693
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 4: There's always new fud, right, fear, uncertainty, doubt, and the

694
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 4: latest fud has been about Quantum's going to break Bitcoin.

695
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 5: Well, I just I just.

696
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 4: Want people to know that, first of all, the Sha

697
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 4: two fifty six hashing algorithm, which brings so much security

698
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 4: to Bitcoin, there's gonna be a lot that's going to

699
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 4: be cracked before that. We are nowhere near the level

700
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 4: of being able to crack that. And so these AI

701
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 4: tools that are coming out and even Microsoft talking about,

702
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 4: oh well we have something that has like this amount

703
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 4: of care bits, da dada, we're gonna be able to

704
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 4: accomplish this in terms of computing. I just want people

705
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 4: to remember that everything will be cracked before Bitcoin, every

706
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 4: banking system. When I go first, the nuclear codes all

707
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 4: of your all of your Internet activity, right, so everyone

708
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 4: is incentivized for that not to happen. And do you

709
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 4: think that if Microsoft basically came up with an AI

710
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 4: tool that would crack all of its systems that it

711
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 4: would sell it like. No, I mean, it's it's kind

712
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 4: of a it's kind of It goes to what I

713
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 4: always say about the free market, which is that the

714
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 4: free market's the best referee because it will it has

715
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 4: like self protection mechanisms in place. We don't need government

716
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 4: interference and all the laws that exists because the free

717
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 4: market will actually protect itself in many ways, just like

718
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 4: nature protects itself. And I yes, computing is going to

719
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 4: increase and maybe there comes a time many years from

720
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 4: now where we have to upgrade everything to quantum resistance.

721
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 4: But I will tell you that I'm not worried about

722
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 4: bitcoin compared to everything else will come before it.

723
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: So going from something that is like future oriented, what

724
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: about something incredibly simplistic. We were talking to someone recently,

725
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 2: Matt and I were who is a big bitcoin investor,

726
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: and she mentioned, and I'd never heard of this before,

727
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 2: five dollars rench attacks, and that is like the most

728
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: basic threat. I guess, this most simple thing is a

729
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: dark alley and a wrench in your face, where a

730
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: personal attack on somebody who holds a lot of cryptocurrency.

731
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: How worried are you about that. How prevalent is that

732
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: almost like someone saying, hey, can I borrow your phone

733
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 2: and then transferring money from your Venmo account to their

734
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 2: own account. How big of a problem is potential violence

735
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 2: in stealing people's bitcoin stashes.

736
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 5: So yeah, I.

737
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: Actually did a few episodes recently about this because we

738
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 4: are seeing an increase and people make themselves out to

739
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 4: be targets. Right. Some of the most recent instances where

740
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 4: we've seen this are people talking very very loudly about

741
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 4: all the crypto that they hold, and then all of

742
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 4: a sudden someone tries to literally harm them or kidnap

743
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 4: them or threaten them with violence.

744
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 5: So it is a reality.

745
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 4: So I would urge people, first of all, if you're

746
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 4: investing in this space like no one's no one's tweeting

747
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 4: about their Amazon balance, right, Like I just I just

748
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 4: think you be a little bit more private and be

749
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 4: a little bit more careful about what information you're putting

750
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 4: out there because so much of us, you know, our

751
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 4: identities and our personal infos already online, So don't add

752
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 4: to becoming a potential target. Number two, create ways to

753
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 4: have barriers around your bitcoin. What does that mean, Well,

754
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: don't have single points of failure. Don't have a situation

755
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 4: where even if someone were to take your phone that

756
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 4: they could immediately send bitcoin. A lot of the platforms

757
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 4: right now, if you were to have a hot wallet,

758
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 4: actually create vaults where you have to wait a certain

759
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 4: amount of days to withdraw more than say one thousand

760
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 4: dollars of bitcoin. So like my platform, for example, River

761
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 4: creates what they call a force field around your account.

762
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 4: And if you're trying to transfer all of a sudden

763
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 4: out of nowhere, you know, tens of thousands of dollars,

764
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 4: that's going to be a flag to them that hey,

765
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 4: this might be something nefarious going on, and we're not

766
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 4: going to allow that bitcoin to move until we verify

767
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 4: that this is actually Natalie sending it. So a lot

768
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 4: of the companies are creating, you know, options like that

769
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: and tools like that.

770
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 5: And then again going back to.

771
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: Multi sig multi key custody, if you take bitcoin into

772
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 4: self custodying, you create a multi key scenario. There's nothing

773
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 4: that the person could do to get your bitcoin if

774
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 4: you have to get another key that's in another state,

775
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 4: Like they could want it, but they can't get it,

776
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 4: they can't access it. So I just think you need

777
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 4: to do your homework in terms of being able to

778
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 4: decentralize distribute any points of risk. And then yeah, just

779
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 4: be careful what you're posting because they're dangerous, scary people

780
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 4: out there that are wanting to take from you, and

781
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 4: you just you have to do yours to protect yourself.

782
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 4: But it can happen, you know, not just for bitcoin,

783
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 4: but for a multitude of reasons.

784
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 3: Okay, I like how you continue to say, do your homework,

785
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 3: and so I guess I want a last note here

786
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 3: on I guess practical advice or suggestions, like do you

787
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: have a recommendation on what percentage of individuals investable assets

788
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 3: that should be in bitcoin versus the stock market, especially

789
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 3: for a lot of folks out there who are are

790
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: newer to it, and we typically are like, you know,

791
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 3: we understand that there's a case for it, but be

792
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 3: super careful and how much you a lot? Based on

793
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 3: what you're saying, I guess I wouldn't be surprised for

794
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: you to say, you know, so, like you said a

795
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 3: second ago, ninety eight percent of your portfolio could be cash,

796
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 3: and then like so, basically one hundred percent of your

797
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: actual investable assets are dumped and bitcoin, but I'm I

798
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts on somebody who

799
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: is new to bitcoin. What you would recommend from a

800
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: percentage damp stock market. Do you still invest in stock?

801
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 4: I think that everyone should be invested in bitcoin. I

802
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 4: think it's that actually a lot easier in terms of

803
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 4: an investment strategy, because you just set it and forget

804
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 4: it and just keep accumulating. I think that over time

805
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 4: there will be more tools, like you could borrow against

806
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 4: your bitcoin. People are going to be taking out, you know,

807
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 4: to buy a house. They're going to be using bitcoin

808
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 4: as collateral. Like there's going to be a future of

809
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 4: services and products that we haven't even envisioned yet, but

810
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 4: definitely get off zero. So I think that if you're very,

811
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 4: very new and the volatility makes you nervous, or you

812
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 4: need to make a really big purchase in the next

813
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 4: couple of years, then keep your allocation very small, you know,

814
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 4: one to two percent, five percent. But as you learn,

815
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 4: believe me, your conviction starts to grow. And so yeah,

816
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 4: I mean I ended up. I was actually upset that

817
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 4: I even still had for a time being gold in

818
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 4: my portfolio or some of these stocks, because bitcoins so

819
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 4: aggressively outperformed. And you know, if I have this conviction,

820
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 4: but I'm not really putting my money where my mouth is,

821
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: then do I have conviction. So I eventually ended up

822
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 4: just shifting a lot of my positions to just being

823
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 4: very bitcoin focused in my retirement cown. I do own

824
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 4: the bitcoin ETFs because that's just it's just easy to

825
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 4: hold in a retirement portfolio as opposed to spot bitcoin.

826
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 4: And then I hold spot Bitcoin outside of my retirement

827
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 4: accounts and self custody, and I'm like a full on

828
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 4: bitcoin maxie, and I'm super happy about it.

829
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: That's awesome.

830
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: Right, We've got a few more questions to get to

831
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: with you, Natalie, including well, if government is part of

832
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 2: the problem and part of the reason that we need bitcoin,

833
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: what happens when they enter into bitcoin ownership. We'll talk

834
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: about that and more. Right after this, we're back from.

835
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 3: The break again speaking with Natalie Rutinelle and Natalie. As

836
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 3: Joel alluded to before the break, let's talk about government policy.

837
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 3: Because Donald Trump, he seems to be the first president

838
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: to actually embrace crypto, at least I don't know, at

839
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 3: least publicly. He announced the creation of the Strategic uh,

840
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: not just bitcoin reserve, but also crypto. So I'm kind

841
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 3: of curious as to if you think that he is

842
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 3: wasting his time and effort with some of the other

843
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 3: cryptos don't need harpening. But how will that impact bitcoin specifically?

844
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 3: And then I guess just a crypto space as a whole.

845
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 4: Well, let me just clarify something first. We have a

846
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 4: strategic bitcoin reserve and that bitcoin is pledged not to

847
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 4: be sold, and I think we're going to start adding

848
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 4: to it in the next year or so. Whereas the

849
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 4: digital assets stockpile does have crypto that was seized through

850
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 4: civil forfeiture, but that can be sold. So what the

851
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 4: government is saying is don't sell your bitcoin, but maybe

852
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 4: sell the other digital assets down the road. So I

853
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 4: wouldn't be surprised if the government actually sold a lot

854
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 4: of those other digital assets that are in the stockpile.

855
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 4: And we're going to definitely be focusing on a strategic

856
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 4: bitcoin reserve. A lot of people maybe don't realize, but

857
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 4: we have strategic reserves for other assets and commodities. We

858
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 4: have a strategic oil reserve. People might be familiar with that.

859
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 4: We have a strategic chie reserve. We have a strategic

860
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 4: obviously gold, but I think what we need is a

861
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 4: strategic bitcoin reserve because it is important for the government

862
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 4: to recognize this technology as one that can help us

863
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: address some of our many financial issues. We're a nation

864
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 4: thirty six trillion dollars in debt. We need to keep

865
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 4: up the demand for the US treasuries, which we talked

866
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 4: about earlier, which is why they're so in favor of

867
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 4: stable coins and anything that will extend dollar dominance.

868
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 5: But what will actually help.

869
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 4: Us grow or get out of debt. We need an

870
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 4: asset that appreciates rapidly, that is here to stay, which

871
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 4: we know bitcoin is, and that is finite and cannot

872
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 4: be hacked or manipulated or inflated. So that's Bitcoin. I mean,

873
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 4: I really do believe. I had Senator Cynthia Lummis on

874
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 4: my show I'm releasing it this week, and she's talked

875
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,479
Speaker 4: about how we could cut our debt in half if

876
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 4: we pass the Bitcoin Act and start strategically accumulating bitcoin,

877
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 4: because Bitcoin is growing faster than any other asset, and

878
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 4: it will out allow us to outpace this debt that

879
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 4: we keep accumulating.

880
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 5: And that's what I think.

881
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 4: We need in order to be able to grow and

882
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 4: maybe focus on sort of revitalizing the American dream that

883
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 4: seems lost. The thing that brought my parents here. This

884
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: nation was so strong and prosperous because of its economic power.

885
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 4: It was the credit or nation. It made so many

886
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 4: amazing things that it exported around the world. And now

887
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 4: we're just highly financialized and all we export is our

888
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 4: dollars and basically we just go into debt. And so

889
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 4: I think that there's a better America ahead. I think

890
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 4: the bitcoin age is ahead of us, and I think

891
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 4: that if America embraces it first, we will be at

892
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 4: a strategic advantage. So I'm so excited to see that

893
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 4: this administration is embracing bitcoin, even if not all the

894
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 4: politicians fully understand bitcoin yet, which they don't, But I

895
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 4: think this is a starting point. I think we will

896
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 4: be a leader and we will set a standard for

897
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 4: the rest of the world.

898
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: Okay, looking to the future, I don't want to hear

899
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 2: price predictions or anything like that. I can get those

900
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: on CNBC or really any financial website. So so predicts

901
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: bitcoin to a million in a year and a half

902
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: or something like that. That happens all the time. But

903
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: when it comes to the way bitcoin interacts with our

904
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 2: everyday lives, even people who haven't or have been really

905
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: slow adopters of bitcoin. What's that going to look like?

906
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 2: And I think the thing I'm particularly curious about. You

907
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: talk about bitcoin, and that's one of the existential questions

908
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: is is it an investable asset or is it a currency?

909
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: And you think it's an asset that will transition into

910
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: a currency. What's that look like? How does that shake out?

911
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 2: What's the future for bitcoin?

912
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 5: I think it's going to take a long time.

913
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 4: My goal is to just help people learn about bitcoin

914
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 4: so that they start saving in it, because I do

915
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 4: think it's the most powerful and am empowering savings technology.

916
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 4: So I think that people will increasingly save in bitcoin.

917
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 4: There are going to be more and more tools and

918
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 4: services to allow you to do that. I think that

919
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 4: companies will come out with killer apps that make interacting

920
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 4: with bitcoin on a day to day basis a little

921
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 4: bit easier, and that will facilitate more of the medium

922
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 4: of exchange aspect to bitcoin, so people do start spending

923
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 4: it more for their business activities. But I just see

924
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 4: a long time horizon where we slowly shift away from

925
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 4: underpinning the entire system with sovereign debt and one nation's currency,

926
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 4: and we start underpinning it with things that no one

927
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 4: can control, and a lot of people would think that

928
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 4: we're retransitioning back to gold, which I can understand. If

929
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 4: you don't understand bitcoin, then you might think gold is

930
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 4: the next best solution. I would be in that camp

931
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 4: if bitcoin didn't exist. But because Bitcoin exists, I think

932
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 4: it's going to eventually move into a system underpinned by

933
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 4: bitcoin as the capital, as the pristine collateral, as the

934
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 4: savings technology, and as the way eventually people do spend

935
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 4: their money.

936
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 3: Very cool, Natalie Bruneill making a great case for bitcoin.

937
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 3: And Natalie, you mentioned your book that comes out l

938
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 3: later this year, Bitcoin for Everyone. Do you have a

939
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 3: scheduled publish or release date for that.

940
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 5: I'm so excited.

941
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 4: Yes, you can already pre order it on Amazon, Barnes

942
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 4: and Noble, all the bookstores. It's coming out in October

943
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 4: or November, and I'm so excited because it is the

944
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 4: book that I wish that I had starting my journey.

945
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 4: It explains the problem that currently exists and why bitcoin is,

946
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 4: in my opinion, the best solution, and why everyone should

947
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 4: buy at least a little bit of bitcoin.

948
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 1: Nice awesome.

949
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 2: We look forward to checking it out when it comes out. Natalie,

950
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us today on the show.

951
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: We really appreciate it.

952
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 3: Thank you, ok jil, I feel like after that conversation,

953
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 3: did you just get orange pilled?

954
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: Because we always hit stop.

955
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 3: On the recording with the guests from the interview, and

956
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: you know, we have a few words thank them for

957
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 3: coming on, and then you and I end up talking

958
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 3: for like fifteen minutes, and we probably just talked for

959
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 3: about thirty minutes, and you just got pretty fired up

960
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 3: before I resumed the recording. Here for us to come

961
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 3: back and present some takeaways. But what do you want

962
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: to share?

963
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: Okay?

964
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: So my big takeaway, okay, is that everyone should read

965
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: more about economics, so they should understand our economic system

966
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 2: how it works, and really the history of economics too.

967
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: And like, sorry, big homework assignment, people, but I've just

968
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 2: finished reading two incredible books by Thomas Soul, Basic Economics

969
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: and Applied Economics, and I think why I'm recommending that

970
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: is because I feel like this conversation with Natalie, a

971
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: whole lot of the why behind bitcoin comes down to

972
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: the flaws in our current economic system and the way

973
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: the people in charge of the levers of power have

974
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: handled our system of money.

975
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 3: And Jill, everyone's putting you in their box of conspiracy

976
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 3: theorists as you say.

977
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: This, it's not just you know, it's truly not conspiracy.

978
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 2: It's just the literal fact. I mean, we've noticed it

979
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: with just even artificially low interest rates, what happens when

980
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 2: the government does print more money and the inflation that

981
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: causes and the pain that causes typically on the even

982
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum. Do I think bitcoin

983
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: is the fall on solution? And I don't know, like

984
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: I am down to own some bitcoin. I am probably

985
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: down to own more. I feel like Natalie explained it

986
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: really well, But I do think like my big takeaway

987
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: is just that to understand bitcoin, even to feel like

988
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: this conversation is successful, I think people need even more

989
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,959
Speaker 2: of a fundamental economic education, and that's that's sorely lacking

990
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: in this country. So yeah, Thomas sol read Thomas Soul.

991
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: That will help you out a lot.

992
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 3: So my big takeaway will be less onerous for those

993
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 3: who are like, yeah, dude, I'm not going to.

994
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: Do that, which is they're like they see the thickness

995
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: of the book. I thank you. I've got a life

996
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: to live.

997
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 3: So on that note, my big takeaway is going to

998
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 3: be when I asked her about what percentage of your

999
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 3: overall portfolio should be dedicated to bitcoin, and she said,

1000
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: it's just good to get off zero. And I interpreted

1001
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 3: that as it's better to have some than to have none.

1002
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 3: And I think even if you're thinking, well, dude, I'm

1003
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 3: not gonna completely understand how the world works, how the

1004
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 3: FED is manipulating money, FIAC currency, or you know, nudging

1005
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 3: the economy in certain directions, well you also don't have

1006
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 3: to completely understand that to diversify a little bit to

1007
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 3: head your bets. And there's a part of me that

1008
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 3: feels that that's what the US government is doing. The

1009
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 3: ability to set up to set up a strategic reserve

1010
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 3: points to the fact that you don't really know what

1011
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: the future holds, and do you want to double down

1012
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 3: on a system that you're not totally sure of, or

1013
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 3: do you want to perhaps quietly start having a strategic

1014
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 3: reserve when it comes to something like bitcoin. I think

1015
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 3: it's smart not only for countries, but obviously for individuals

1016
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 3: as well. I don't know if that's going to change

1017
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 3: how much I'm currently holding. Yeah, But for those out

1018
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 3: there who have had their interests piqued, I think there

1019
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 3: are some very easy ways to check it out if

1020
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 3: we wanted to.

1021
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 2: And I'm not changing a rule of them yet, But

1022
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: I think we've always said something like up to five

1023
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 2: percent of your portfolio, but maybe kind of what you're

1024
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 2: hinting at is it should probably be something up to

1025
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 2: five percent of Sure, you know, but until now it's

1026
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: been like you don't need any but if you want to,

1027
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 2: you can, And so maybe it's like, I don't know,

1028
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: maybe you should have a little.

1029
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: Bit have something, Yeah, And I think it'll get you

1030
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 3: thinking about it, and I think that can be the

1031
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 3: beginning of the helpful process of learning what it's all about.

1032
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: All Right, we got long winded before when we weren't recording,

1033
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 3: so we'll try to say save all of our listeners

1034
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 3: from that. But our beer that you and I enjoyed

1035
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: today was a stash IPA. Looks like this is Independence

1036
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 3: Brewing Company out of Austin, Is.

1037
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: That right, Texas? Yeah, this is one of the beers

1038
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: that you picked.

1039
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 3: Up while you were there in Austin for the.

1040
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcast Awards. What were your thoughts on this beer?

1041
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: I liked it.

1042
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: It was a little dank, a little grapefruity, mildly bitter.

1043
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 2: So sometimes the hyper West Coast style IPAs can just

1044
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 2: be like too better, too hard for me to endure.

1045
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: This one was like, maybe it's because it's in the

1046
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 2: middle of the country. It was like it was mid bitter,

1047
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 2: which I can appreciate.

1048
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: So I like this one.

1049
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 3: Yep, had the dank going on, but with like a

1050
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 3: little bit of fruit, like not a specific fruit that

1051
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 3: they you know, forced into it, but just tasted great,

1052
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 3: nice and bright, juicy. Glad that you and I got

1053
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 3: to enjoy it and share it today on the episode

1054
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 3: That's Gonna Be It.

1055
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: For this episode, you can find show notes.

1056
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 3: Up on the website at Howtomoney dot com, and we'll

1057
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 3: make sure to link to the pre order to Natalie's book.

1058
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 3: And we didn't even know that she's coming out with

1059
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 3: a book later this year, so I'm glad we.

1060
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: Got to catch her early.

1061
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 3: So buddy, until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,