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Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.

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Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement they get lost along

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Speaker 2: the way and forget what their job really is.

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Speaker 3: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 3: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 3: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 3: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 4: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 4: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 1: They do that.

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Speaker 2: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home

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Speaker 2: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.

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Speaker 3: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to

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Speaker 3: something that you didn't do, My question to them will

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Speaker 3: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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Speaker 3: your life?

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Speaker 5: The judge, he said, how you feel?

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Speaker 1: I said, I'm okay. He said, well, the days you're

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Speaker 1: lucky day you're going home.

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Speaker 4: This is wrong for conviction.

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Speaker 6: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm. Today we

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Speaker 6: have two extraordinary guests. Brian Ferguson, who served eleven years

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Speaker 6: in maximum security prison, who sends the life in West

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Speaker 6: Virginia and is a rising senior at Georgetown and is

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Speaker 6: currently the executive director of the Mayor's Office of Returning

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Speaker 6: Citizen Affairs in DC.

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Speaker 4: Brian, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 6: And with Brian is my friend Mark Howard, who is

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Speaker 6: a mentor to Brian and to me and a major

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Speaker 6: force in this movement. Mark is a professor of government

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Speaker 6: and law at Georgetown University, and he's also an acclaimed author.

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Speaker 6: His most recent book is Unusually Cruel, Prisons, Punishment and

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Speaker 6: the Real American Exceptionalism.

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Speaker 4: Mark. It's great to have you here. Great to be here, Jason.

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Speaker 6: So Brian, let's go back to the beginning of this

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Speaker 6: crazy story of yours. There's a lot of typical things

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Speaker 6: in your story that we see in wrongful convictions, but

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Speaker 6: there's a number of unique characteristics, not the least of

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Speaker 6: which is that you come from a very distinguished family,

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Speaker 6: which is atypical of people who get caught up in

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Speaker 6: the system and who get wrongfully convicted. Can you talk

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Speaker 6: a little bit about your growing up and what that

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Speaker 6: was like and what your family was like.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, absolutely, you know. My family was very supportive.

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Speaker 2: I have a close knit family. I have a small

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Speaker 2: immediate family. I was born and raised in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: In Northeast DC, in Michigan Park. Relatively middle class family,

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Speaker 2: but professional. Both of my parents were working, both of

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Speaker 2: them were college graduates, and so in that respect, it

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Speaker 2: definitely was unique in terms of the people that I

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Speaker 2: ended up coming across in the penitentiary and then in

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Speaker 2: the work that I do with people that have been

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Speaker 2: incarcerated since.

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Speaker 6: The work that you're doing now, right, And you have

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Speaker 6: some legal professionals in your family as well.

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Speaker 2: Right now, I have several legal professionals in my family. Ironically,

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Speaker 2: as it turns out, so my mother, my aunt, my uncle,

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Speaker 2: and my sister are all in the legal profession. My

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Speaker 2: aunt is still currently a judge in Washington, DC.

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Speaker 1: Right now.

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Speaker 6: Wow, that's a lot of lawyers in one family. Let's

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Speaker 6: go back to how this happened and how you became

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Speaker 6: a suspect in the first place. You were a college

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Speaker 6: student at the time.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, So I was a college student at West

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Speaker 2: Virginia University, actually doing very well because I actually was

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Speaker 2: on the track to go to law school and had

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Speaker 2: intentions and plans on going to law school. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was in West Virginia in my second year of undergrad.

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Speaker 6: So, Brian, you were a four point zero student on

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Speaker 6: your way to law school. Why did you pick West

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Speaker 6: Virginia to go to school?

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Speaker 2: By the way, because I was playing sports in West Virginia.

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Speaker 2: I played soccer on the team and was recruited to

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Speaker 2: go there.

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Speaker 4: So your life was pretty good. Yeah, things were looking

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Speaker 4: straight up, right.

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Speaker 1: That's what I thought absolutely.

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Speaker 6: I mean, your life was laid out in front of

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Speaker 6: you like a like a damn red carpet. It just sounds,

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Speaker 6: it sounds ideal. And then all of a sudden everything

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Speaker 6: went wrong. You became a suspect in a murder. Did

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Speaker 6: you even know about it?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: So, I think, if I'm honest, it would have started

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Speaker 2: before that with the police. I think it's it's important

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Speaker 2: to understand the community that is in like small towns

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Speaker 2: in West Virginia, especially being from a middle relatively middle class,

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Speaker 2: like I said, family in DC, I you know, dressed

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Speaker 2: relatively well, right, but well for DC is different for

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Speaker 2: for what it is in West Virginia. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: the police assumed that myself and there were a couple

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Speaker 2: of other guys from New York, a couple of other

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Speaker 2: guys from Los Angeles who were you know, generally the

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Speaker 2: same in the same socioeconomic class, couldn't have just been

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Speaker 2: that way because our parents might have been successful, or

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Speaker 2: that we came from a different environment, but it had

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Speaker 2: to have been that we were dealing drugs. So they thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know this, these guys you know, might be and this.

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Speaker 2: We weren't together or anything like. It was separate individuals,

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Speaker 2: but just that I knew of these guys, you know,

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Speaker 2: must be deal drums, are doing something wrong. And so

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Speaker 2: there were a couple of incidents with the police where

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Speaker 2: it was like.

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Speaker 1: What are you doing or why are you?

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Speaker 2: Why are you driving this car, Why don't you live

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Speaker 2: in this part of town, why do you live in

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Speaker 2: this part of town. So those kinds of things, I

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Speaker 2: think are a good backdrop to.

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Speaker 1: To kind of what ultimately happened.

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Speaker 2: And so with respect to the particular incident, which is

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Speaker 2: which which led up to I guess me being even

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Speaker 2: included in the conversation was I had a girlfriend who

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Speaker 2: this other guy at the school had made advances toward

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Speaker 2: and she told me that, you know, this guy said X,

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Speaker 2: Y and Z about you and and and doesn't very

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Speaker 2: much appreciate you. And so I said, okay, well I

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Speaker 2: ended up talking to the guy. Listen, I don't know you,

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Speaker 2: I don't know you know what the issue is or whatever,

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Speaker 2: but whatever you have to say, please say it to me,

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Speaker 2: don't go to her. We had maybe a three minute

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Speaker 2: argument and then that was it. That was literally it.

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Speaker 2: And that was in my first year of college. And

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Speaker 2: I say this in my first year of college because

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Speaker 2: that's important timeline wise, because this gentleman ended up getting

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Speaker 2: shot and died.

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Speaker 1: He died from being shot. But that was a year

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Speaker 1: and a half later.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, after the argument that I had, apparently,

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Speaker 2: and I learned this after the fact, you know, he

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Speaker 2: would tell his friends and I don't like this guy.

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Speaker 1: Look at this guy driving around. He thinks he's this,

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Speaker 1: he thinks.

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Speaker 2: He's that, or he wanted your girl, right, Yeah, basically,

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Speaker 2: but after that interaction, I had no further interactions with him.

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Speaker 2: And so for the next year and a half, I

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Speaker 2: went about my business, he went about his business, and

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Speaker 2: I had no occasion to kind of come across him until,

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Speaker 2: like I said, the police asked me about shooting.

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Speaker 1: Right, I had no idea.

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Speaker 6: So here's what we know. At seven pm on February second,

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Speaker 6: two thousand and two. Jerry Wilkins was his name, right,

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Speaker 6: was shot in the back in front of his apartment,

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Speaker 6: and court records indicate that witnesses gave varying descriptions of

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Speaker 6: the gunman. However, prosecutors charged you with murder because basically

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Speaker 6: they didn't know who did it, right, and they were

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Speaker 6: able to find somebody or a couple of people who said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 6: that's the guy. There was one guy who had an argument,

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Speaker 6: you know, because he had gone as you just said,

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Speaker 6: he had gone around telling people that he had had

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Speaker 6: beef with you. So here comes the police knocking on

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Speaker 6: your door or what happened?

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned the witnesses. I think it's the most

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Speaker 2: interesting and really disappointing thing to me about the witnesses

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Speaker 2: was that they were varying accounts, but the one thread

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Speaker 2: of commonality between the witness accounts was that it was

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Speaker 2: a very skinny, dark skinned, black gentleman that was the assailant.

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Speaker 2: And I've been confused with a lot of different things

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Speaker 2: in my life, but skinny, dark skinned guy is not

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Speaker 2: really one of them.

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Speaker 6: So skinny, dark skinned, black gentleman, I think you resemble

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Speaker 6: that description about as much as I do. Brian is

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Speaker 6: you know, he looks like a football player actually is

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Speaker 6: not dark skinned, so that was an inconvenient truth, but

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Speaker 6: they managed to find a way around it, as they

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Speaker 6: do in.

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Speaker 4: These cases certainly, and how they do that.

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Speaker 2: One of the key moments I think in the trial

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Speaker 2: when it comes to the witness identification was when the

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Speaker 2: witness refused to ident I mean, I'm sitting in court

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Speaker 2: obviously in the defendant's table, but when asked, the witness

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Speaker 2: refused to identify me as the person whom she had seen.

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Speaker 2: The witness that was the closest to the crime was

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Speaker 2: asked about, you know, whether the assailant was in the courtroom,

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Speaker 2: and first we did the person have a mask on?

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Speaker 2: You know he did, and I saw his face. Can

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Speaker 2: you identify him? Have you identified him before? And can

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Speaker 2: you identify him now? And the answer to that was no.

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Speaker 2: At that point I was thinking that, Okay, well this

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Speaker 2: is over and we should really just like have whatever

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Speaker 2: motion that needs to happen to drop the case right

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Speaker 2: now should really happen. And that's that was my misconception

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Speaker 2: of what kind of the next couple of hours were

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Speaker 2: going to be like.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't.

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Speaker 6: Let's go back a little though, so you were you

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Speaker 6: were arrested. That must have been enough of a shock.

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Speaker 1: That was a tremendous shock.

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Speaker 4: But let me ask you, did you even know that

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Speaker 4: he had been killed?

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Speaker 1: No? Not at all.

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Speaker 4: So it wasn't like talk on campus or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: So they came to my friend's house. I was at

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Speaker 2: my friend's house and they came in, asked could they

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Speaker 2: come in? You know, we let them in, and they

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Speaker 2: started asking me about Jerry Wilkins. Right, that was a

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Speaker 2: gentleman's name. I didn't know that his neck because he

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Speaker 2: went by a nickname on campus. So for the first

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Speaker 2: i'm gonna say three minutes of the conversation, it was

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Speaker 2: like an Abbott Costello, Who are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: Oh? You know who we're talking about? No, I don't.

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Speaker 2: And then so one of them said, oh, well you

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Speaker 2: know it's it's JP. Is this guy's nickname? Okay, well

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Speaker 2: I know who you're talking about. And so that at

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Speaker 2: that point they informed me that he had been shot.

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Speaker 2: And I had no idea up until that very moment

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Speaker 2: that that had happened.

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Speaker 4: Did they take you away right then and there?

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Speaker 1: No, not at all.

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Speaker 2: So they questioned, they asked if they could question me.

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Speaker 2: I agreed, to let them search everything that I had,

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Speaker 2: because I had nothing to hid, and I wanted them

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Speaker 2: to disco help me as a suspect if I were

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Speaker 2: a suspect, which they told me that I wasn't, of course,

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Speaker 2: as they want to do sometimes, but spoke with them,

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Speaker 2: finished the conversation with them, and kind of just went

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Speaker 2: on about my business and didn't hear about it again

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Speaker 2: for another I'm gonna say, six months, and then I

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Speaker 2: got a call. I was actually back in DC at

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Speaker 2: this time, working as an intern for one of the

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Speaker 2: largest law firms in the country on an importer, and

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Speaker 2: I got a call from my lawyer who told me, so,

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Speaker 2: you've been indicted for this homicide and you need to

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Speaker 2: come and turn yourself in.

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Speaker 1: And that was the first time I had heard about

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Speaker 1: it since.

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Speaker 6: And I'm just always at a loss to try to

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Speaker 6: imagine the shock, the emotions, the confusion that everything that

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Speaker 6: must go on inside your head when this all of

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Speaker 6: a sudden is like, wait, what the fuck are you

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Speaker 6: talking about? In a different way, like, for instance, if

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Speaker 6: you're picked up and putting a handcuffs and taking in right,

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Speaker 6: you've got to actually now go and get yourself back there.

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Speaker 6: You've got to take this journey back to West Virginia

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Speaker 6: to go show up and be processed. Right then, what

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Speaker 6: I mean, did you go the next day?

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Speaker 4: Did you go? And what do you I mean the

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Speaker 4: first person you called was who in this happened?

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Speaker 2: So I'm pretty sure that the first person I called

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Speaker 2: was my mother, who is and remains, you know, the

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Speaker 2: closest person person to me obviously other than my wife

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Speaker 2: at this point. But we talked about it, and you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously it had to be done to go back to

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Speaker 2: West Virginia. So we made the arrangements to with and

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Speaker 2: I'm not exactly short, I'll recall exactly how long it was,

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Speaker 2: but it was within a day or two that we

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Speaker 2: went back and in process. Yeah, So we went up,

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Speaker 2: met with my lawyer, and then went over to h

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Speaker 2: to the courthouse for the initial hearing.

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Speaker 4: That we had, and then you were arraigned.

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Speaker 2: So I was arraigned, and because the judge made several

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Speaker 2: statements from the bench saying, well, I don't really know

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Speaker 2: what's going on here, and we're going to assume that

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Speaker 2: this hearsay evidence is valid and I'm going to let

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Speaker 2: it in. Because other than that he said from the bench,

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Speaker 2: that the prosecution has no case at all, Set the

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Speaker 2: bail very low for a capital murder case. Set the

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Speaker 2: bail ten thousand dollars, and I made bail and went home.

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Speaker 4: Then comes a trial, Then comes the trial.

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Speaker 6: Right, It's interesting you had an ineffective assistance of council

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Speaker 6: claim later on in your appeal, and typically well typically

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Speaker 6: xuonneries were represented, whether or not the head in effects

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Speaker 6: of assistants a council. In general, there are people who

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Speaker 6: come from very humble roots and have no ability to

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Speaker 6: pay for an attorney and are represented by a public defender.

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Speaker 6: That wasn't the case with you, So let's talk about

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Speaker 6: that too. Because your family hired an attorney who would

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Speaker 6: on paper have seemed like the right guy to represent

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Speaker 6: you in this situation.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, So the determination was made to hire a

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Speaker 2: local attorney because the thinking behind that was, Okay, this

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Speaker 2: person knows the landscape of this particular small town. If

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Speaker 2: it's necessary to pick a jury or to do the

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Speaker 2: many different things that a lawyer would have to do

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Speaker 2: both pre trial and during trial, that they would be

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Speaker 2: well suited to do that in this environment.

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Speaker 1: So that determination was made.

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Speaker 2: So we went with an attorney that was from the

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Speaker 2: Morgantown which is where West Virginia University is located the

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Speaker 2: Morgantown area, to represent me in this case. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that was a terrible mistake. It turns out we went

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Speaker 2: to trial. The trial, and you mentioned earlier it seeming surreal,

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Speaker 2: I can verify that for you that it didn't seem

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Speaker 2: that it was surreal. I was completely baffled by the

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Speaker 2: fact that I was even in this situation, that I

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Speaker 2: was even having to answer for a crime like that,

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Speaker 2: that that had never even crossed my mind. And the

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Speaker 2: fact that I'm sitting in this chair and being even

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Speaker 2: accused of something like that was completely foreign to me.

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Speaker 2: And you know something I really resented, to be honest

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Speaker 2: with you, but that I knew that I had to

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Speaker 2: go through. So in trial, the case against me was

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Speaker 2: literally all hearsay and had no evidence whatsoever, and that

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Speaker 2: ultimately was brought up by the courts that released me.

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Speaker 2: But basically the evidence in the trial was, oh, our friend,

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Speaker 2: mister Wilkins told us you didn't like him. Our friends

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Speaker 2: told us that y'all had some type of beef. That

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Speaker 2: was really it.

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Speaker 4: Mark, Let's turn to you for a second.

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Speaker 6: You can't convict somebody in America based on that on

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Speaker 6: rumors a capital murray case.

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Speaker 4: How's that happen?

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Speaker 5: Well, unfortunately, I think experienced listeners of your podcast will

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Speaker 5: know by now that that's Sadly, that's not the case

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Speaker 5: that when there's a lot of pressure in a community

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Speaker 5: to solve a certain crime, when they identify a suspect,

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Speaker 5: they go down a certain road that they don't want

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Speaker 5: to go back from. They get their conviction once that

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Speaker 5: train is in motion. If you're lying there on the tracks,

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Speaker 5: they run over you and you get convicted.

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Speaker 6: I want to explore that too, because in this case,

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Speaker 6: what is is the idea that after Brian had been

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Speaker 6: identified as a suspect, and after the wheels of let's

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Speaker 6: call it justice and quotes had started turning, another more

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Speaker 6: likely suspect emerged, right, who may have actually been the killer?

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Speaker 6: But they never that was not followed up on because

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Speaker 6: it wasn't the narrative that they had signed on too. Right,

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Speaker 6: they'd picked their guy. Everybody was determined to solve this

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Speaker 6: case or to clear it off their desk. Not to

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Speaker 6: solve it, right, but to get rid of it. And

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Speaker 6: if an innocent guy got caught in the crosshairs, and

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Speaker 6: so be it, so be it. So the hearsay is

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Speaker 6: admitted into court, which seems odd too. I mean, would

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Speaker 6: you if you were representing him at that time, would

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Speaker 6: that still have been allowed to be admitted into court?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure about the rules

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Speaker 5: of evidence in West Virginia, but I'm sure they found

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Speaker 5: a way to spin it and sort of use the

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Speaker 5: notion that there were witnesses who somehow implicated him even

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Speaker 5: though they didn't as a means of conviction. And from

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Speaker 5: what I understand about Brian's case, there was evidence that

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Speaker 5: came out about other suspects that the police essentially buried

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Speaker 5: and put away that his attorney, member paid attorney, private,

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Speaker 5: well respected established attorney found out about and didn't follow

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Speaker 5: up on. That is just egregious and it's unusual. But

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Speaker 5: I think there's a real lesson here, which is that

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Speaker 5: it's not just about the people who who can't afford

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Speaker 5: to represent themselves, who get bad public defenders who can't

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Speaker 5: follow through and give adequate representation. It happens at every level.

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Speaker 5: If that machinery of justice is determined to get you,

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Speaker 5: they probably will regardless of your personal circumstances, and that's

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Speaker 5: just shocking and in my view, totally unacceptable and outrageous.

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Speaker 6: An everybody's feel I mean, because this can happen, and

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Speaker 6: I think Brian is a great example of this, right,

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Speaker 6: I talk about the fact that this can happen to anyone.

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Speaker 6: It literally can happen anyone, or he wouldn't be sitting

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Speaker 6: here because he ain't that guy. Right, So you got

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Speaker 6: convicted of capital murder that moment. Take us back there.

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Speaker 6: You're in the courtroom. You're not that far removed from

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Speaker 6: having been the guy on campus who had it all?

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Speaker 6: And did you expect that the jury was going to

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Speaker 6: come back whether guilty or an innocent verdict?

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Speaker 2: The entire time I expected them to come back with

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Speaker 2: an innocent verdict. I had been making plans because remember,

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Speaker 2: like I said, I was on bond. I had made

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Speaker 2: bond and had been home and was driving myself every

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Speaker 2: day from the hotel back and forth to court. And

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Speaker 2: so the day of the conviction, I had driven myself

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Speaker 2: from the hotel to the courtroom because they said they

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Speaker 2: had a decision, and I was eager to get it

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Speaker 2: over with because I wanted to go home and so

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Speaker 2: my anticipation was that it would be not guilty, that

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Speaker 2: I would be acquitted and go home and then deal

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Speaker 2: with everything kind of after that.

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Speaker 1: But that was far different from the reality. I actually knew.

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Speaker 2: I found out that there was a conviction a little

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Speaker 2: bit before they read it in court, because when they

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Speaker 2: called the jury out from the box, they have a

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Speaker 2: jury sheet, and the jury sheet has different lines, and

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Speaker 2: the first line is not guilty, second line is, you know,

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Speaker 2: first degree murder. Third line and fourth line are the

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Speaker 2: different the underlying charges. I guess you would say so

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Speaker 2: second degree manslaughter are different variations of the homicide charge.

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Speaker 2: And when the jury walked out, the foreman had it

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Speaker 2: in his hand, but he had it in his hand,

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Speaker 2: and as he stepped I could see I couldn't tell

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Speaker 2: which line had been checked, but I knew that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't the first one, and I knew that the first

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Speaker 2: one was not guilty. So for about two minutes, I

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Speaker 2: knew that it was some kind of guilty verdict, but

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Speaker 2: just didn't know what.

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Speaker 1: And I was in total disbelief.

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Speaker 4: In the court room. I'm assuming your family was there.

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Speaker 2: Right, so my entire like I said, I have a

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Speaker 2: small family, but we're very close knit, so I had

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Speaker 2: my mother was their father, both my siblings, cousins, and

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Speaker 2: some friends were there.

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Speaker 6: And it must have been I mean, it's just like

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Speaker 6: the worst kind of imaginable sort of nightmare. You're there

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Speaker 6: surrounded by all these people who know you couldn't possibly

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Speaker 6: have done it, who love you and care for you,

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Speaker 6: and are people who have accomplished so much in their

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Speaker 6: own lives and have been a part of the justice

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Speaker 6: system at one level or another, even including your aunt

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Speaker 6: who's a judge, and who are suddenly powerless to stop

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Speaker 6: this grave injustice from happening to a person that they

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Speaker 6: love and care about deeply, which is you.

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Speaker 4: And then it's.

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Speaker 6: All just a I just my head explodes when I

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Speaker 6: try to even imagine this. And I wasn't there, but

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Speaker 6: you were there, and you were in the middle of it,

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Speaker 6: and now you get taken off to prison.

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Speaker 1: Right. So it was.

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Speaker 2: Worse than that, actually, because prior to us actually going

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Speaker 2: into the courtroom, the marshals, who had been obviously there

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Speaker 2: for the entire court proceedings, took me aside and asked me,

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Speaker 2: you know, not even me, but they took me in.

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Speaker 2: A couple of mine family members aside and asked, do

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Speaker 2: you want to talk to the media or anything afterward?

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Speaker 2: Because we have sat through several or hundreds even of

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Speaker 2: court proceedings here, we can kind of tell one way

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Speaker 2: or the other which way it's going to go. We

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Speaker 2: really feel like you shouldn't even be here, that this

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Speaker 2: is going to be an acquittal. So if you don't

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Speaker 2: want to talk to the media, let's figure out a

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Speaker 2: way to get you out of the back door and

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Speaker 2: into your current back to the hotel. Asked me where

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Speaker 2: the hotel was, because their anticipation was that if you

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Speaker 2: don't want to talk, then let's get you out of here.

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Speaker 2: And we're honestly sorry for this. And that was the

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Speaker 2: conversation that I had literally before I walked into the

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Speaker 2: courtroom itself.

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Speaker 6: Even they knew you were in Oh somehow other twelve

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Speaker 6: other people call the jury couldn't figure it out. So

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Speaker 6: I want to talk about the prison experience. Eleven years

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Speaker 6: in a place that must have been as terrifying and

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Speaker 6: foreign to you as could be imagined.

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Speaker 4: So you got taken off to which prison.

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Speaker 2: So initially you're taken to jail, right, So I spent

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Speaker 2: about a year and a half in the jail awaiting

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Speaker 2: transfer to prison. So from the courtroom I was walked

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Speaker 2: down and put into a holding cell for about four

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Speaker 2: or five hours to give my clothes up and the

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Speaker 2: change and into kind of basically jail jumpsuit. And then

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Speaker 2: later that night I was transferred to the jail where

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Speaker 2: I ended up staying for about a year and a half,

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Speaker 2: and then after a year and a half, I was

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Speaker 2: then transferred to the state's maximum security prison, which is

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Speaker 2: called Mount Olive in West Virginia.

442
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 6: And the jail, the jail is is that in a

443
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 6: building or is it like a Is it a sprawling complex?

444
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 2: Is it it's a standalone complex, So it's it's sprawling,

445
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: but it's they're all interconnected.

446
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 6: Because in many cases jails like Rikers Island or Harris

447
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 6: County are even more dangerous in maximum security prisons because

448
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,239
Speaker 6: of the fact that there's really no order there right

449
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 6: because people are transient. It seems insane that you were

450
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 6: kept there for a year and a half before transferring

451
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 6: you to prison. I mean, how did you get through

452
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 6: that way?

453
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: So I would say that the worst thing was for me,

454
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: you know, I felt like, and this was the case

455
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 2: throughout I felt like as a man, you can deal

456
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 2: with even a terrible thing that happens to you. I

457
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 2: could deal with something that happened to me, as bad

458
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 2: as it was and as much as I wanted to

459
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: change it, it was something that I felt like I

460
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 2: could adjust to and deal with in the moment, because

461
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 2: I always felt that I would eventually come home. I

462
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: just didn't know when. The thing that was the worst

463
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 2: for me was the prospect of losing my parents or

464
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: seeing what my incarceration did to my family, and you know,

465
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,719
Speaker 2: the things that they had to deal with, and at

466
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 2: the same time be helpless about it.

467
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 1: Like you said, it's nothing that they can do. They

468
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: do the time with you.

469
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: I think anyone who's ever had a family member in prison,

470
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 2: anyone who's been around a family who's had someone in prison,

471
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 2: knows that those close family members especially do every minute

472
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 2: of that time with that person. And so having my parents,

473
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: my siblings, my really close friends go through that it

474
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 2: was no fault of mine, but for sure no fault

475
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 2: of their own, and not be able to do anything

476
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: and not really know how I'm taking it, because I

477
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 2: know how I'm taking it, but they don't, and so

478
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 2: they might expect the worst, and so having them or

479
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 2: seeing them rather go through that, I would say that

480
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 2: was definitely and it's not even close the worst part

481
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 2: of the experience.

482
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 6: For me, because we were walking around with that guilt,

483
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 6: right or r right. I mean, ironically, you're innocent, and

484
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 6: you have guilt because of the fact that you're even

485
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 6: though you're not responsible, you're feeling responsible for this misery

486
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 6: that you know your family's going through, only because they

487
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 6: love you and they care, right, It's just it's a

488
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 6: totally twisted cycle.

489
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 4: Was there anything positive at all?

490
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know there there are, ironically a lot of

491
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 2: different positive moments. Humans are a resilient kind of species,

492
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: and especially if you're a strong person. And I've seen

493
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 2: the system break a lot of people and so I

494
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 2: don't want to say that they're not strong. But for

495
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,959
Speaker 2: the people that you know have hope, for the people

496
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 2: you know that that are able to kind of adjust

497
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: to their not accept it, but to adjust to the environment,

498
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 2: you can find people doing things that make them feel better.

499
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: Right.

500
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: So for me, that was helping people in even worse situations.

501
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: In mind, I had a terrible situation. I was given

502
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: a life sentence without the possibility of parole, And so

503
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: that meant that if the sense were kept the way

504
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: that it was, I was never going to be given

505
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: the opportunity to come home. I was to die in prison.

506
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 2: It was a death sentence, just an extended one.

507
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 4: Well, what is worse than that? Not much, But you

508
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 4: said there are people even worse situations.

509
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: All, so there are people in worse situations in mind

510
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: in that you know, they came in, didn't have any

511
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 2: kind of family support, still had those really really long

512
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: sentences or life sentences, but they didn't have the advantage

513
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: of being able to call home and talk to somebody.

514
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: They didn't have the advantage of already having an education.

515
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 2: And so you know, when I was able to help people,

516
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: to tutor people to get their ged or to help

517
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: them through the really limited college classes that they had,

518
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: or to even help them with their legal work, because

519
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: a lot of times people were stuck with the really

520
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: terrible lawyers or no lawyers at all, and were responsible

521
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: for their own legal work, but couldn't read, or couldn't

522
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: read well enough to be able to analyze what their

523
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 2: case was as compared to what the law was, and

524
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: how to juxtapose those two things. So being able to

525
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: help people with their law work and also with kind

526
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 2: of feeling like they accomplished something, whether it's getting a

527
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: ged or taking college classes.

528
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: That's where I found my solace.

529
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 6: Amazing that you could dig deep enough in this midst

530
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 6: of this darkest place that you could possibly find yourself

531
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 6: in to help others.

532
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 4: I mean, it's as simple as that. There's really no

533
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: better way of putting it. And so let's get to

534
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 4: the appeal.

535
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 6: You had sort of a dream team, right, not like

536
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 6: the OJ dream team, like your own version of that

537
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 6: you had. I mean you actually had sort of legal

538
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 6: royalty on your side.

539
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I did. And again, you know you said that,

540
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: like what could be worse in my situation, My situation

541
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: was made far better by the fact that I had

542
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: distinct hope as opposed to just kind of nebulous, Oh,

543
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: I think and I hope that I'll get out one day.

544
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: I really was able to believe and to kind of

545
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: know inside that the people that were working on my

546
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 2: case were the very best. So Covington and Berlin, which

547
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: is either the top or one of the very top

548
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 2: law firms in the country, took my case pro bono,

549
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: which is fortunately because there's no way, even with a

550
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: professional family, that we would have ever been able to

551
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: afford their services. And not only did they take my

552
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: case pro bono, but they put amazing lawyers on my team,

553
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: and so for the first few years of the appeal,

554
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: even with that, But it's important to point out that

555
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: it was eleven years that it took for my case

556
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: to be overturned. But one of my lead attorneys was

557
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: Eric Holder, who ultimately became the Attorney General of the

558
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: United States in two thousand and nine when President Obama

559
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 2: was elected, and so he did an amazing job. Jim Garland,

560
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: Sarah Wilson, Sarah Frederick, Paul Schmidt. There are amazing lawyers

561
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 2: that put not only hard work, but they put their

562
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: really their soul into into the case.

563
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: They called me.

564
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: I did as much work with them as I did

565
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: with anyone else, and ultimately the case was overturned.

566
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 4: It's really amazing to listen to you.

567
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 6: I mean, you're very calm and sort of ethereal type

568
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 6: of being for the short time I know you. But

569
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,239
Speaker 6: eleven years it took, even with the support of an

570
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 6: amazing and accomplished and brilliant family and representation at the

571
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 6: highest level, that someone could hope for years. I'm getting

572
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 6: the chills just thinking about that. And it turned to

573
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 6: Mark for a second because the conviction was overturned. So

574
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 6: for the average person, you go, Okay, that's it, right,

575
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 6: go home. Conviction overturned. Mistakes were made. We're sorry, mister Ferguson.

576
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 6: Can we get you a ride somewhere? You know what

577
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 6: I mean? Do you need a lift? That's not the

578
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 6: approach that West Virginia took. They still wanted their pound

579
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 6: of flesh.

580
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, So from my understanding is they appealed this reversal, right,

581
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 5: which kept Brian for another year and a half right

582
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 5: in prison, despite the fact that the conviction had been overturned,

583
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 5: but the indictment still stood, and so they were appealing

584
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 5: the fact that he should have been released at that point,

585
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 5: which is actually very common in wrathful conviction cases. And

586
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 5: it's really appalling and sickening. And sometimes it's even after clear,

587
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 5: you know, demonstrable DNA tests and they still will appeal.

588
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 4: That though, what is it? It's so strange and Brian,

589
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: maybe you have it might not Mark, you must because

590
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 4: it makes me nuts.

591
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 5: Well, it's the very simple human reflex of not wanting

592
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 5: to admit you were wrong morally, they've been so invested

593
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 5: in it. Sometimes they just want to believe it. Many

594
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 5: cases they really do believe it, they convince themselves, and

595
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 5: then they don't want to admit publicly that Often a

596
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 5: case that even might have made their reputation, that their

597
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 5: reputation of their office is grounded on, was based on

598
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 5: a terrible, horrific mistake. And this happened so many times,

599
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 5: where you'd think there would be they'd be on their

600
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 5: knees begging for forgiveness and apologize, but no.

601
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 6: And on their way to go look for the guy

602
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 6: who actually did it exactly before he killed somebody else.

603
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 5: And if they really cared about justice, that they cared

604
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 5: about law and order, right, these concepts they like to

605
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 5: talk about, then they would be doing those things. No,

606
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 5: but they want to keep that person that they know

607
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 5: and come to learn is innocent, if they didn't know

608
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 5: it already, keep that person in just to preserve their reputation,

609
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 5: preserve their careers. And it's just unconscionable.

610
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 4: You don't seem angry, what's up with that?

611
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: You're not the first person to point that out. But

612
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: what I'd like to say when anyone mentions that is

613
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: that you know there's a threshold beyond which you're not

614
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: worried about retribution, or you're not worried about being mad

615
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: about the situation. If you would have caught me after

616
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: maybe two or three years, yeah, I'd have been pissed.

617
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: I was still pissed that my name was even brought

618
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: up in a situation like this, that these people twisted

619
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: the law, that they hid evidence that they knew another

620
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: person was actually the one who committed the murder. But

621
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: after a while, after you have to worry about your

622
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: parents ever seeing you on the outside again. You have

623
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: to worry about ever, you know, as you see your

624
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 2: friends getting older, graduating from college and postgraduate degrees and

625
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: having families and going off and doing all kinds of things,

626
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: and the world passing you by. At some point you

627
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: just want to come home. And so when you get

628
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 2: that opportunity. For me, when I got the opportunity, I

629
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: was far more happy to be home and to have

630
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: the opportunity to build my life again than I am mad.

631
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: Like that's not even a close. Those aren't even competing

632
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: emotions in my mind.

633
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 6: That's amazing. There's some sort of spiritual enlightenment going on here.

634
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 6: That's that's kind of awesome to behold.

635
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 5: You hear that with a lot of exguneries, then I hear.

636
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 6: It over and over again, but it never gets old

637
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 6: and it never ceases to amaze me. And everybody that

638
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 6: I've I mean, I think every exunery I've ever met,

639
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 6: and there's hundreds of them, have had some variation. Everyone's

640
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 6: got their own take on it, everyone's got their own

641
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 6: unique way of explaining it, and each one went through

642
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,239
Speaker 6: their own journey to get to that place, and of

643
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 6: course so therefore there everyone has a little bit of

644
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 6: a different way of expressing it. But it's absolutely remarkable

645
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 6: when you hear somebody like you. I hope you understand

646
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 6: how much that is inspires everybody else around you, and

647
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 6: how much it inspires guys you know, like Mark and

648
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 6: myself and so many others who are in this fight

649
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 6: and trying to help prevent other people from following your situation,

650
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 6: trying to help you know, other people like you find

651
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 6: the freedom that they deserve and recover the life that

652
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 6: was taken from them on the outside. And let's get

653
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 6: to that too, because we got to still talk about

654
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 6: the Alfred plea because it's a fascinating and terrifying concept

655
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 6: that is hard for a lot of people, I think,

656
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 6: to wrap themselves around. Because what happened in your case,

657
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 6: which we see not infrequently in wrongful convictions, is that

658
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 6: after this year and a half where you're now in

659
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 6: this crazy limbo, right, you've known all along you're innocent,

660
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 6: and they may have known all along you're innocent, but

661
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 6: now you know that they know that you're innocent, right,

662
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 6: and yet you're still in prison, and at a certain

663
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 6: point you're faced with a decision that I don't think

664
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 6: anybody who hasn't been there can even conceptualize, which is

665
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 6: that it's really, do you want to bet your life? Hey, Ferguson,

666
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 6: We just fucked you up, right, We just took you

667
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 6: and just ground you up, and you're still here and

668
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 6: that annoys us, right, and now you know you're you're

669
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 6: in a position to make us look bad. We don't

670
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 6: like that, right, And you're in a position to be

671
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 6: able to sue us and get a lot of money.

672
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 4: We don't like that either. And the tables are turned.

673
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: We don't like that. We're going to give you a choice, right,

674
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 4: which is.

675
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 6: That even though we know that the right thing to

676
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 6: do is to let you go and move on with

677
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 6: your life. And like I said, we're going to go

678
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 6: look for the guy that really did this, because there

679
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 6: is no statute limitations on murder. There's a monster that's

680
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 6: walking among us in our community where we live. But

681
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 6: instead they came to you with a much different idea.

682
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 6: You want to talk about that.

683
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in my case, actually they knew the person

684
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: was incarcerated. He had apparently been known to be very

685
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: violent and especially with guns to people in that community.

686
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: And so as is that happens, he ended up in prison,

687
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 2: and so he was in the prison, in a federal

688
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: prison actually for I think fifteen years. So they weren't

689
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: actually worried about this person walking among them in their communities.

690
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 2: What they were worried about, like you said, was losing

691
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: money was me suing when they dropped the case, and

692
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: they made it very clear to my attorneys after they

693
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: put in their appeal, that appeal took a year and

694
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 2: a half, that I had to stay in prison after

695
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 2: my case was overturned the Supreme Court of the state.

696
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: So the West Virginia Supreme Court once they got the

697
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: case and then they voted to uphold the decision to

698
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 2: release me, making kind of and what I've heard is

699
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: unprecedented comments from the bench that this should have never happened,

700
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: this is a travesty of miscarriage of justice, and that

701
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: this case has bothered us for years. Saying things like

702
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: that you would think would influence a prosecutor one way

703
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 2: or the other, but it didn't because they have the

704
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 2: discretion to do as they will with respect to retrying

705
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: a case. And so after they made that decision, they

706
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: being this Supreme Court and I was released, the West

707
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: Virginia prosecutors still had the option to retry me and

708
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: made it clear to my attorneys that at this point

709
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: we could drop the case, but we're playing with house money,

710
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 2: and by that they meant if we retry him and lose,

711
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: we're in no worse position optically practically than we are

712
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 2: right now.

713
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: The case.

714
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: There's egg on our face. You know, everybody sees that

715
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: we messed up, and then we tried the wrong person.

716
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: If we retry him and lose, that that position doesn't

717
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: get worse.

718
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: But that's if we lose.

719
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: If we win, he gets a brand new life sentence

720
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: with no possibility or parrole and this time there's no

721
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 2: coming back from it, So what do you want to do?

722
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 4: So, Mark, doesn't this sound like double jeopardy? How do

723
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 4: they get away with that?

724
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: Yeah?

725
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 5: Well, I mean when the conviction's overturned, it's like a

726
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 5: trial never happened.

727
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 4: So they do start over.

728
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 5: And so what they're effectively saying is we are going

729
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 5: to try you for murder and go for the maximum sentence,

730
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 5: which is what he'd had before, or we will let

731
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 5: you go with this Alfred plea where it's time served.

732
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 5: It's technically legally a conviction means there's a record, but

733
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 5: you get to claim your innocence, right, And it's this

734
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 5: very bizarre choice. It's not always offered, but when it

735
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 5: is a lot of times people do take it because

736
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 5: there's that fear. What I mean, this is West Virginia, right,

737
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 5: this is going into a courtroom after what he'd been

738
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 5: through already. How's he supposed to know it's not gonna

739
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 5: go the same way again, even though there's no evidence.

740
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 5: There's no evidence the first time, and okay there's more now,

741
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 5: but who knows?

742
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: Right?

743
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 5: But the key about the alphared plea, it's not a

744
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 5: conviction with just time served and says, I plead guilty,

745
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 5: I did it. He maintains his innocence and he gets

746
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 5: to claim his innocence and they get technically the conviction,

747
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 5: but then he's out. And I think many lawyers would say,

748
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 5: take the deal because you need to get out. Out

749
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 5: is out. And there are people who don't take it

750
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 5: and who get convicted and they could have walked out

751
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 5: that door.

752
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, and what a thing to live with that is

753
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 6: so literally, Yeah, even if it's you know, look, even

754
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 6: if you had somebody there saying, look, it's a it's

755
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 6: a one percent chance, Brian, like you just do everything's

756
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 6: in your favor. I mean, what do you what are

757
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 6: you going to do? Like you could You're going to

758
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 6: go back to prison for the rest of your life.

759
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 6: It's almost like a Sophie's choice. But at the same time,

760
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 6: I guess you got to take it. And we know

761
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 6: and there are people who roll the dice. Yeah, and

762
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 6: you could say, well, that's a principal thing to do.

763
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 6: It's a brave thing to do. It's also a crazy

764
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 6: thing to when you know what they're capable of. And

765
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 6: we've seen cases where they'll come right out and say, look,

766
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 6: we got a new jailhouse, nitche. We've got somebody else

767
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 6: that's gonna we're gonna roll out and they're going to

768
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 6: testify against you, and you know we're going to get you.

769
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 5: But the key thing is Brian always maintained his innocence,

770
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 5: and he could maintain his innocence while taking that plea

771
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 5: and afterwards. So it's very different from a guilty plea

772
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 5: for time served, which sometimes innocent people will take sure

773
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 5: where they admit guilt for something they didn't do because

774
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 5: it lets them out. The Alfred plea lets him maintain

775
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 5: his innocence throughout as he did.

776
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: The prosecution made it very clear, and I think as

777
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: close to word for word as I can get, the

778
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: quote was, we're extremely confident in our ability to convince

779
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: our jurors of whatever we want to.

780
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: So that sounds like a threat right there. Says a lot.

781
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 6: So you were finally free, right to go home, and

782
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 6: no one would blame you, least of all me if

783
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 6: you came out and decide, you know what I'm gonna do.

784
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm gonna get drunk. I'm just gonna drink.

785
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 6: I'm just gonna like I'm going on a bender, right,

786
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 6: because look at what I just came out of, and

787
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 6: I deserve to go have to de live my life

788
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 6: like I'm in a rap video, you know what I mean.

789
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 6: But that's not really what happened though, right, I mean,

790
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 6: your story is remarkable in so many ways, but not

791
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 6: least of which because of what's.

792
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 4: Going on now.

793
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 6: And you know you're now a senior at Georgetown, Yes

794
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 6: I am, so you've got what else is going on?

795
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: So right now, I am the executive director of the

796
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 2: Mayor's Office on Returning Citizen Affairs in Washington, DC. So

797
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 2: the office is the only legislatively mandated office of its

798
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: kind in the country, and basically the mission is to

799
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: provide information, support and services to individuals who come home

800
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 2: from incarceration back to the district.

801
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 6: So you're giving back in a way that you are

802
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 6: uniquely qualified.

803
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 4: To be able to do.

804
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: Correct.

805
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 4: It's sort of a great full circle. Look, we'd all

806
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 4: like to give you.

807
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 6: Back those eleven years and make that just just to

808
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 6: RaSE that from what we.

809
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 2: Can You can't you can't get you can't ever get

810
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: back the time. But you know, when I came home,

811
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: the thing that was really on my mind was how

812
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: many people went out of their way to help me.

813
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 2: How many people stepped out of their comfort zone and

814
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: what would have been completely acceptable for them to do

815
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: or to not do, to go above and beyond to

816
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: help me. Marcu is definitely one of those people. The

817
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 2: lawyers that I had, they didn't need to do any

818
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 2: of the stuff that they did, And if it weren't

819
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 2: for what they did, there's no way that I would

820
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: be in a position i am today or anywhere near there.

821
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 2: So it's I believe a requirement for me to give

822
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: at least some of that back, as much of it

823
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: as I can. The people, like I said that there

824
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: are worse positions than I was when I came home.

825
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: I was fortunate enough to have a family to come

826
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: home to. I didn't have to worry about where my

827
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 2: next meal was coming from, or where I was going

828
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: to get money to get food or anything like that,

829
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: or clothes, or where I was going to live when

830
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: I was looking for a job or anything like that.

831
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: These are problems they face a lot of people when

832
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: they come home from prison, whether they did two years

833
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 2: or twenty years.

834
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: And I didn't necessarily have to deal with all that.

835
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: I still had tremendous hurdles, but the fact is that

836
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 2: I had the supports and people help me through my situation,

837
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 2: and so I want to do that for other people

838
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: who are in even worse situation than I was when

839
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 2: I came home.

840
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 6: If one person clapping wouldn't sound so weird, I give

841
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 6: you a round of applaus right after that, you know

842
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 6: what I mean.

843
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's that's amazing.

844
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 6: And you know, and I think a lot of people

845
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 6: that are that do get involved in this stuff. I mean,

846
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,959
Speaker 6: I can't speak for everybody, but many of us recognize that.

847
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 6: But there before the grace of God, go I right,

848
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 6: this could happen definitely to anyone, because it did. I

849
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 6: think it's great that there's so much interest and momentum

850
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 6: behind an awareness that there's a huge number of people

851
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 6: like you who need help, both people that were wrongfully

852
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 6: convicted and people that are out the type of people

853
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 6: you're helping now and have served their time and are

854
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 6: just in this country. The punishment is so disproportionate in general,

855
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 6: So the crime and the punishment continues with the stigmas

856
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 6: that exist after you get out. I mean, some of

857
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 6: it is deliberate, some of its government mandated punishment. I mean,

858
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 6: you can't vote and all this other stuff, and some

859
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 6: of it's just society looking down on people and not

860
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 6: wanting to give people a second chance. When we see

861
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 6: both xouneries and people who are formally incarcerated, who served

862
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 6: their time, as you were saying, accomplishing extraordinary things. I

863
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 6: want to ask two more things. One is, when you're

864
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 6: finally released, what did you do.

865
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 2: I got the hell out of West Virginia. This is

866
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 2: the first thing I did. I wanted to drive. I

867
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: told so my father picked me up, which you know,

868
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: my father had been even when I had a life

869
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: sentence with no parole and the appeals were stalling or

870
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: going nowhere and there wasn't any discernible date to look

871
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 2: forward to. He was always in my ear. Listen, I'm

872
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: gonna pick you up. I'm gonna pick you up from

873
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 2: right here, and we're gonna go wherever you want to go.

874
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: And to have him be outside the gate when they

875
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: let me go, it was a beautiful thing. It was

876
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 2: one of the best moments in my life. But when

877
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 2: we got in that car, I told him to get

878
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: me the hell out of the state, and so we

879
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: drove until we got to Maryland and then we stopped

880
00:42:58,880 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 2: to eat and I don't even remember.

881
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 1: Where it was, but it was great.

882
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 4: It must have been incredible.

883
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: It was amazing.

884
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 6: Okay, so now comes the thing we typically do, as

885
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 6: everyone who listens to the show knows, I like to

886
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 6: just turn over the floor to you for closing thoughts.

887
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 4: Let's call it closing thoughts.

888
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: I think if I had to come up with closing

889
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: thoughts right now, what's on my mind is just the

890
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 2: opportunity that exists for people that are coming home from prison.

891
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, the federal system is its own thing,

892
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: but in a lot of these states and a lot

893
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: of these cities, DC especially, there's a tremendous amount of

894
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: resources and services that are available to people. And like

895
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: you said, the tide is turning with respect to how

896
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: people look at the criminal justice system of mass incarceration,

897
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: what needs to be done for people not only when

898
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: they come home, but before they even get there in

899
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: the prison. The treatment that's going on, a lot of

900
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: it is criminal in and of itself, but DC and

901
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: I work at the Mayor's office on returning citizen affairs.

902
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: If you got to come home to somewhere after having

903
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: been incarcerated. DC is a great place, and you know,

904
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: we serve as an example for a lot of different things,

905
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: one of which is the band of Box law that's

906
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: happened then. I know New York is following suit on

907
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 2: which is basically prevents employers from screening people for their

908
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: criminal records and so that gives people opportunities for jobs.

909
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: The mayor has dedicated millions of dollars to the re

910
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 2: entry community in DC and has you know, made the

911
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: priority of the needs of the returning citizen community. You

912
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: have different nonprofit organizations all throughout the city and the

913
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: nation that are really the kind of backbone of the

914
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: movement to help people once they come home. And I

915
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: want to really take my hat off, not just because

916
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: I'm a student there, but to Georgetown and to other

917
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: universities like that, but especially Georgetown because of what they

918
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: do in the re Entry space Mark and the Prison

919
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: Justice Initiative is an amazing example of that that they

920
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: have identified the needs of this community as a priority

921
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: as well and have utilized their resources and the brain

922
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: power that exist in a university like that, a top

923
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: tier university to be able to make a change. So

924
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: I think that my last thought would be to just

925
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: take my hat off to everyone who's doing the work,

926
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: everybody who's listening that has either done the work or

927
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: who is inclined toward people who are incarcerated, whether wrongfully

928
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: or otherwise, because ninety seven percent of people that are

929
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: incarcerated are coming home. So the question is what kind

930
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: of neighbor do you want? What kind of person do

931
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 2: you want is going to be at your school, is

932
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: going to be in the store with you? What kind

933
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: of society do you want?

934
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: Do you want to participate in and contribute to?

935
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 2: So those things I think are what are on my

936
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 2: mind and what I want to have the audience take away.

937
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 5: Mark, Yeah, so I agree with everything that Brian just said.

938
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 5: But let me just close with something about Brian, because

939
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 5: I think it's probably already clear to your listeners what

940
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 5: an amazing person he is and how strong and resilient

941
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 5: and caring he is. But he has so many different

942
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 5: dimensions that might not come across right away on this podcast.

943
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 5: But I got to know Brian. I remember getting an

944
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 5: email from him a couple of years ago, and you know,

945
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 5: dear Professor Howard, very polite and so on and saying

946
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 5: very little but just about his own experience, and that

947
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,959
Speaker 5: he'd be interested in having a meeting sometime, and I thought, yeah,

948
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 5: I definitely I'm interested. And when we met in my office,

949
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 5: within five minutes I knew this guy is a winner.

950
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 5: This guy is unbelievable. And we talked about the possibility

951
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 5: of him coming to Georgetown because he'd stopped. He'd been

952
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 5: at West Virginia and he'd stopped after two years despite

953
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 5: having a great record, but that was over and it's

954
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 5: hard to pick that up again. And we came up

955
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 5: with the idea, why not have him be a transfer

956
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 5: student to Georgetown, And so I supported that and wrote

957
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 5: a letter of recommendation very long, where basically I was

958
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 5: threatening to resign if Georgetown didn' admit. I said, if

959
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 5: Georgetown is worth anything of its reputation of in terms

960
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 5: of academic excellence, where he had the record and deserved it,

961
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 5: just oh yeah, but also in terms of Georgetown's tradition

962
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 5: of giving back and as a Jesuit institution of caring

963
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 5: for others and so on. And he was admitted as

964
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 5: a transfer student and then came on and then actually

965
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 5: was in my classroom and I was teaching a course

966
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 5: called Prisons and Punishment, which has about fifty students, and

967
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 5: Brian was one of those students, and we talked beforehand

968
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,439
Speaker 5: and I said, you know, I'll let you decide when

969
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 5: to reveal your story, and if you want me to,

970
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 5: I'm happy to if you want to, you decide when

971
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,959
Speaker 5: the right time is. And I remember it was several

972
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 5: weeks into the class and he'd already been active and

973
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 5: asking questions and making comments and so on. But then

974
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 5: at one point he said to the whole class, now

975
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 5: might be a good time for me to tell you

976
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 5: my story, what I've been through, why I have a

977
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 5: connection with this issue. And you should have seen the

978
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 5: jaws drop in that room, total silence and admiration and awe.

979
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 5: And over the next few months, the role that he

980
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 5: had in that classroom and in these students' lives, the

981
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 5: respect that they had for him, it was life changing

982
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 5: for them for me too, And I got course evaluations

983
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 5: at the end of the semester that were through the roof,

984
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 5: but so many of them said having Brian in this

985
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 5: course was unbelievable, right, And so I'm really grateful to him,

986
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 5: but not just in terms of what he did to

987
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 5: me and for my students, but what he's giving back

988
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,439
Speaker 5: to so many people around him, right, And so it's

989
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 5: one of these things where you never would wish this

990
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 5: type of horrible thing to happen on anyone, but in

991
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 5: a way, Brian is the person to have it happened

992
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 5: to because he is so strong and he's taking from

993
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 5: that something to help change this horrific system. And I

994
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 5: think he's going to be a leader in the future,

995
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 5: whether it's in DC or nationally. He's got an incredible

996
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 5: future and we're all going to hear a lot more

997
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 5: from him and about him.

998
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 6: I think, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

999
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 4: Wherever you get your post, it really helps.

1000
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 6: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

1001
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 6: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1002
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 6: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1003
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 6: to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate

1004
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 6: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,

1005
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 6: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show

1006
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 6: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

1007
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 4: Be sure to.

1008
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 6: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook.

1009
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 4: At Wrongful Conviction podcast.

1010
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,240
Speaker 6: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1011
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 6: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one