WEBVTT - #193 Wrongful Conviction: False Confessions - SPECIAL UPDATE 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:06.880 Hey guys, this is Laura and I writer. Welcome to 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:11.600 a very special breaking news episode of wrongful conviction False Confessions. 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:14.920 Here's why I'm dropping in with this episode. Over and over, 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.760 Steve and I have told you about innocent people who 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.440 ended up confessing the crimes they didn't commit. These stories 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.040 usually have a common thread interrogators who lied about the 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.880 evidence to get those false confessions. Lies like your DNA 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.879 was found at the scene, or the polygraph proves you guilty. 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.480 These kinds of lies are known risk factors for false confessions. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.600 But here's the breaking news. Someone is finally doing something 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.640 about it. For the first time in US history, bills 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.479 have just been introduced in three states to prohibit police 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:52.440 from lying during interrogations. It's happening right now in New York, Oregon, 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.920 and my home state Illinois. I support these bills, and 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.920 I hope you will too. In fact, we pulled together 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.400 today's special episode just so I could introduce you to 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.000 three heroes who were working together to make sure we 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:17.720 make change. I'll be joined first today by New York 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.840 exonerie Marty Tankloff. He falsely confessed to murdering his own 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.200 parents when he was just seventeen. Then you'll hear from 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.440 Illinois State Senator Robert Peters. He's the sponsor of Illinois 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.960 Senate Bill twenty one twenty two, which would ban deception 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.760 during interrogation. Finally, you'll hear from an old friend of mine, 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:42.000 Dave Thompson. He's an experienced interrogator and police trainer who's 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.039 with us all the way in our fight to end 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.920 false confessions. I'm going to start with our guest, Marty Tankliff. 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.320 Marty woke up one fall morning and found his dad 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:57.560 in another room, severely beaten and barely alive. Unbeknownst to 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.880 Marty at the time, his mom had all been attacked 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.400 in a different part of the house. In fact, she 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.440 had already died because of her injuries. Like anyone would do, 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.360 Marty called the police. But that's when an already terrible 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:17.120 situation got even worse. So thank you so much for 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.160 joining us, all three of you today. This is such 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.079 an important topic and I'm so glad we're here to 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.679 talk about this. I want to start things off by 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.600 hearing from my friend Marty Tankliff. Right, Marty, you've got 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.280 one of the most incredible stories of wrongful conviction and 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.720 false confession that I've ever heard and lies about the 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.320 evidence are at the heart of it. So let's bring 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.920 our listeners back. You're seventeen years old, You're living with 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.120 mom and dad in Long Island, New York, and what 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:44.000 happens from there. 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.400 September seventh, nineteen eighty eight, was supposed to be my 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.480 first day of my senior year of high school, and 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.560 the night before, my father held a high stakes poker 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:58.040 game with his business partner, Jerry Struman and others. And 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.520 on September seventh, I woke up up, found that my 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.480 house was unlocked, lights were on, and I walked through 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.400 the house and discovered my father bleeding in his office chair, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.800 which is where the poker game happened the night before. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:15.840 Unbeknownst to you and your mom was in another room 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:17.799 and had actually been bludgeoned to death herself. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.200 I discovered my mom after that, but I knew my 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.280 father was alive because I performed first aid. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.799 I could hear him breathing. I called my one one. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.400 And shortly thereafter the police showed up, and I wanted 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.320 to go to the hospital, but law enforcement wanted information 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.839 who they thought was responsible, and you know, we all said, 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.040 my family, my friends, everybody said, Jerry Struman. 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.120 Jerry Stuerman, and he happened to be there the night before. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:45.320 Tell me a little bit about what happened the night before. 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:46.000 You've mentioned this. 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:48.960 So the night before there was a high six poker 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.560 game that included Jerry Stuerman. And Jerry Stuman was my 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.160 father's business partner, who, unbeknownst to me at that time, 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.600 had threatened to cut my father's throat out, his tongue 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:05.160 out weeks before my father started demanding money back from 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:09.360 Jerry Stuerman, and it was so bad that my father 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:13.080 had told the family attorney, Jerry's not going to fuck 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:14.880 with me because I know where the bones are buried. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:17.920 I didn't know any of that back then. The only 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.880 thing I knew was that there were some problems with 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.640 Jerry Steuerman. And I knew there were no problems with 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.040 me or my parents. I mean, we had a loving relationship. 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:27.720 I grew up in a. 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.440 Great neighborhood, great family, traveled everything with my parents, so 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.039 I knew there was no problems with us. 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.159 But the police, I guess, weren't so sure. They broughady 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.240 done to police headquarters. And what happens. 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.520 I really wasn't clothed, I was barefoot, was wearing shorts 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.680 in a sweatshirt, and I was separated from family. I 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.440 wasn't brought to the hospital. I was driven forty five 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:54.960 minutes away by Detective James McCready. I was brought up 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:59.440 to police headquarters in a windowless room that had a 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.880 desk and empty file cabinet, two metal chairs, no phone, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.840 no windows, and you know, the questioning started, you know, 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:09.000 where were you the night before? 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:10.360 Who do you think was responsible? 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.880 And that seemed to go on forever until there was 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:19.160 a point where McCready left the room and he left 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:23.560 the door open and you could hear him saying, really, great, really, 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.760 that's amazing, that's great news. Wait till I tell Marty. 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.080 And he came back in and he said, Marty, I 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.880 got great news and bad news. So the great news 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:36.520 is they pumped your father full of adrenaline. He woke 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.960 up and he said, you committed the murders. You attacked 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.320 your mother, and your father just tell us you did that. 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.400 Because your father just said you did that. I mean, 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.960 they contained by saying, listen, Marty, we have your hair 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.360 in your mother's hands, just tell us what we want 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:54.880 to hear. Your father would want that. 0:05:55.520 --> 0:06:01.479 Wow, that's incredible. How did you react to those lies, Marty? 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:03.920 My initial gut response was like, I'll take a lot 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.239 of detector, like I didn't do anything. But it also 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.000 came to the point where it was kind of I 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.400 guess you could say, like the floor under me just 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.919 fell out, and kind of was like, well, if my 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.200 father said I did it, maybe I did. Because my 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:19.599 father's never lied to me, and police are not supposed 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.000 to lie to you, So I know I didn't do anything, 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.080 but my father's saying that it was me, and the 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:25.960 Copps are saying was me. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:27.600 But I was brought up. 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.520 To trust the police, believe in them, and brought up 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:33.279 to that they're not going to lie to you. They're 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:34.600 your friends, they're going to help you. 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.680 Exactly. In fact, your dad was police commissioner, wasn't he. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.680 He was the police commissioner for the incorporated village of 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:41.400 Beltare where we live. 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.120 And you start to doubt your own memory because you 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.600 so trust the word of these authority figures, right, these 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.400 police officers who were telling you what another authority figure 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:51.760 your dad supposedly. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.560 Said without a doubt, without a doubt. You kind of 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:56.360 start going back and forth in your head. You kind 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.040 of say, wait a minute, I know I didn't do anything, 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.400 but they're saying I did. Screaming in your face, yelling 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.280 at you, saying you know, Marty, we know you did this, 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:07.360 and your father is saying you did this. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.720 Some people, Marty, some people that I've talked to, say, 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:12.640 you know what, if I was being interrogated, right, if 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.239 I was inside the interrogation room and I was innocent 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.160 and police lied to me, it would be so easy 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.480 to see through those lies, right, to not be influenced 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.400 by those lies? Is it so easy when it's you 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:25.960 in the moment? 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.200 No farthest thing from that. I mean, you know, I 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:34.160 wasn't somebody who was thirty who had lived a life. 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:35.880 I was a kid. 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.000 I was a kid who was raised to trust your 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:43.680 family and cops, and in this situation, one of. 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:44.240 Them failed me. 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.360 And it's so eventually you confessed. 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.200 Eventually, they said I confessed. What the reality was is 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.720 that they didn't record anything, they didn't audio tape anything, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.200 and everything they said I said proved forensically to be wrong. 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.680 Right, But you gave the series of statements that eventually 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.360 the officer said amounted to a confession, right, and that 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.160 was a huge part of the evidence that was used 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.360 against you to secure your conviction in the murder of 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.880 your own parents, which you ended up serving seventeen years 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:20.120 in prison for before being exonerated. I mean, it's an 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:24.160 incredible story, and it's one in which lies about the 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:26.920 evidence are at the absolute bottom. I just want to know, Marty, 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.840 when afterwards did you begin to realize that you had 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:32.440 been lied to? 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.760 There were two points for me. One was when I 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.720 had an opportunity to make a phone call to a 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.760 family member and the family member said, did you tell 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:42.680 them that you did it? And I was like, they 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:44.960 made me. That was the only thing I could say 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.199 on there during that phone call. But hours later, when 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:51.200 I met with a family member and an attorney, I 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:56.000 went into much more detail. And back then somebody, you know, 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.040 one of them said, we were afraid of this because 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:03.240 they knew what Suffolk County's history was, and they knew 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.800 that once I was isolated, that this was bound to happen. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.920 Wow, And and what was it like to understand that 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:12.800 you've been lied to by these authority figures right by 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.120 these police officers. When you grew up trusting, I. 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.400 Mean back then, it was still this disbelief. I mean 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.160 it was almost like I was on Twilight Zone. There 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.240 was no way that I could be waking up that 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:24.720 should have been one of the best days of my 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:30.520 life to literally turning into a living hell. That destroyed 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.720 my life, my family's life, the community for you know, 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:39.560 for years, and nobody should ever go through this. I mean, 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.400 this is I mean, just because they lied to me. 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.440 You know, if you didn't lie, if you did your job, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.920 if you told the truth, if you would have just 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.480 electronically recorded we went out in that room, I may 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.360 not have spent almost eighteen years in prison. 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.760 Senator I want to bring you in now, as is 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.440 Senator Robert Peters from Illinois. 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:09.920 Yeah. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:11.520 I mean, I guess the best way to react to 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.160 this is what happened to Marty's damn shame and I'm 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.400 sorry that you had to go through that, Marty. And 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.280 what is so painful is that it's not surprising. We 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.400 see this all the time. They look at you and 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.160 they say, you're young, you don't really know any better, 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:30.760 You're in a state of crisis, and they, instead of 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.720 caring about figuring out what happened in this moment of 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.360 pain and trauma. They became assured of their own answer. 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.959 And so you know, the bill that you know I'm 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.960 carrying in the Senate is built off of the fact 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:52.520 that countless people roughly the same age as Marty or younger. Now, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.920 this happens to older folks, but the reason why young 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:00.120 folks are targeted is because there's a power dynamic at 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.120 play and limitation and how many rights you actually have 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:08.040 or understand to have. And it's not about people's safety, 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.400 and it's not about trying to solve or figure out 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.800 the trauma that's happened. And at some point it becomes 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:19.000 purely about winning the game in which you've solved something supposedly. 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.959 You know, Senator I think you're exactly right, Marty. You 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.640 spoke about Suffolk County, New York, right where this happened 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:26.920 to you. But of course we know of hundreds and 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.160 hundreds of cases of false confession around the country, one 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.520 hundred alone in Illinois, one hundred and fifty when you 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.400 combine Illinois and New York, and those numbers are all 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.280 in all probability, just the tip of the iceberg. Because 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.600 these cases are just now starting to come to light. Marty, 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.839 you heard the senator talk about the need to ban 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.400 live about the evidence in the interrogation room. Does what 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:50.800 he said resonate with you? 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.560 First of all, thank you Senator for trying to push 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:58.400 this legislation through, because more, Marie time does have to 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.960 be protected. You know, I think about how challenging it 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.040 was for me, and I think about all the young 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.200 men and women in minority communities, the abuse that I 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.720 went through. I can't even fathom what someone else goes 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.319 through in a regular basis. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:16.800 It's me. 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.440 This legislation has to be passed. I mean universally, it 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:22.280 has to be passed. 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:24.280 So at this point I want to bring in my 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.839 good friend Dave Thompson, who's here with us as well. 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.880 Dave is the president of Wick Landers Zulawski. You train 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.640 police across the country and across the globe, and you've 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.520 also conducted a few interrogations yourself. Dave, how many would 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:38.240 you say you've done? 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.559 Yeah, quite a few hundred interrogations, I'd say, Laura, kind 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.679 of across multiple sectors and across multiple jurisdictions. 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.640 Wow, So there really is no one better for me? 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:53.440 To ask, then do cops really need to lie during interrogations? 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:55.959 No, there's other methods that they can be trained in 0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:00.040 which we can discuss the law needs to change, and 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.120 we also know it increases the fear of innocent people 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:08.760 like Marty just describe, and for detectives who are investigating 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.480 somebody who is a guilty subject who does confess to 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.280 a crime, but they used a tactic like this, all 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.120 that does is potentially contaminate that confession and maybe jeopardize 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.439 the reliability of a true confession as well. So it's 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.280 really a very high risk, low reward strategy. 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:29.040 Okay, So if police officers don't need to lie, then 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:30.040 why do they do it? 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.040 I think the simple answer is that's how they've been 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:40.080 trained and that's what they're allowed to do. It's not investigators, 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.120 for the most part, doing something that they feel is 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.440 unethical or unwarranted. If they're doing something that they've used 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.959 for decades, they've been trained in that technique and maybe 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:54.199 unaware of the negative implications this technique has on both 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.600 innocent subjects and to the reliability of a true confession. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:00.840 So if we look at what's the REOs cause, what's 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:02.959 the reason that we lie about evidence in the first place, 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.880 and it's because if that evidence doesn't exist, we have 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.200 this bias or this belief that the person sitting in 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.720 front of us is the guilty party, but the evidence 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:14.520 isn't there, which means we don't have enough to actually 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.679 prove they're the guilty party. So we rely on this 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.840 fictitious piece of information to persuade the suspect to tell 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.120 us they're guilty and versus let the investigation stand on 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:27.440 its own. And even furthermore, you know, innocent people they 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.400 hear that there's this perspective of evidence. Right if I said, 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.200 and an arson case, you know, we have video footage 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.360 of you starting the fire, and that doesn't exist, an 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:38.040 innocent person might think, well, I hope they have video 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.640 footage because it'll clear my name. So almost that fictitious 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.520 presentation of evidence incentivizes an innocent person to just say, fine, 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:47.920 yeah I did it, because they hope that evidence will 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:49.480 prove that they didn't, just to kind of find out 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.200 that evidence doesn't exist in the first place. So I 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:56.720 think Marty brought up one fact that investigators said, hair right, 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.120 his hair in his mother's hand. And so let's say 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.160 in a confession, somebody like Marty says, well, yeah, I 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.640 guess you know, she must have grabbed my hair during 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.320 whatever whatever happened. Now, the subject giving that information and 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.360 a confession, did they say that because they were actually 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.680 part of the crime they remember that happening, Or did 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.280 they say that because that's what the investigators fact fed 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.320 to them during the interview. So they're just agreeing to it. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:20.960 When you have somebody of a youthful age, they're looking 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.560 at how do I escape this immediate situation and get 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.680 back to safety. And that's what results in the false 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.040 confession is I have faith that this evidence is going 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.080 to prove my innocence to be true. Let me say 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:32.720 whatever I need to get the hell out of the 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.080 room and get back to safety, and let let the 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.320 lawyers figure it out afterwards. Unfortunately, we see what that 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:39.040 has turned into. 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.960 I would imagine that when people sign up to be 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:46.080 police officers, right when they joined police forces, they want 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.520 to be the good guys. And then at a certain point, 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.080 police officers who become interrogators learn that as a part 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:58.200 of their job they're expected to lie. Are there some 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:00.840 cops out there who maybe aren't come struggle with that. 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:07.040 First of all, the goal and most investigators are well 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:11.000 intended to try to represent a victim or a victim's family, 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.080 or whoever might have been harmed in one of these cases. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.320 And so when you go into an investigation or an 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.160 interrogation and you have this predisposed belief of who the 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:25.120 guilty suspect is, and you've been trained that lying about 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:29.440 evidence is a strategical way to get to a confession, 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.000 then yeah, that's what a lot of officers are focused on. However, 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.560 I think there's an overwhelming discomfort, especially with new detectives, 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.239 to be put into a position where their own integrity 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.240 is and jeopardy where they know, if I lie to 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.560 somebody about the evidence today, what does that do for 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.400 my credibility tomorrow. I think there's a overwhelming support of 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:55.200 law enforcement for more clear direction and distinction about what 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.840 should be done so we can still solve cases, but 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.000 do it in the most ethical and scientifically based way. 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.440 Tell me, Dave, what does an interrogation look like if 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.240 you take away lies about the evidence. 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.920 It looks like asking open ended questions, a conversation where 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.280 the investigator doesn't have a goal of a confession, but 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.879 has a goal of obtaining actionable, reliable information less of 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:24.199 having confirmation bias and tunnel vision non coersive evidence based 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.240 interview methods that are progressively gaining traction across the United States. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:30.199 Senator, I want to go back to you for just 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.360 one minute. You've introduced this bill, of course, in your 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.840 home state of Illinois, and you're in great company because 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.440 there are similar bills that have been introduced in New York, 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.800 where Marty is from, and in Oregon as well, other 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.359 bills that would ban lying about the evidence in the 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.320 interrogation room. What does it mean to you to be 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.000 part of this national ground swell for change? 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.520 Wow? So I think that I always think like when 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.760 you try to make changes to something systemic, you can't 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.360 just go it alone. And so to me, it's not 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.919 just having it be Illinois, New York, or organ but 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:06.920 to see it across the country. 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:07.200 Right. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.719 But I also think it's just important that if we 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.600 can do this in Illinois, a complex state, same with Oregon, 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.480 same with New York, other states should try to follow 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:17.560 and do the same thing. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.080 I think that's well said. And Dave in how many 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.320 states is deception used during interrogations? 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:26.560 I mean the Supreme court law is allowing it to 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:30.400 be used across the United States. We've seen a lot 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.440 of jurisdictions starting to move forward away from that proactively. Right, 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.720 we can start training officers now, and we have been 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.440 on methods that you don't need to use those tactics, 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.400 and we start to look outside the United States. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:42.639 You know, the UK has. 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.920 Banned deception for decades in their interview models. Canada has 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.479 been moving away from it. So this is not a 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.000 new problem by any means. It's just finally a solution 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:51.719 to that problem. 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:52.760 I think it is. 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:57.040 It's a free, groundbreaking solution to this problem. Senator, you 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:01.040 have introduced Illinois Senate Bill twenty one, which would ban 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:04.280 deception in the interrogation room. Where do we go from here? 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.040 How can people get involved in supporting your effort to 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:08.679 ban deception. 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.000 Let's put pressure on legislators. Let's shine a light on 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:17.640 Illinois as a model for rarely, whether that's Montana or Florida, 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:22.200 take this bill as piece of model legislation and say 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.800 that this is something that needs to happen in New states. 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.919 So let me repeat that Montana or Florida should have 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:29.840 their own version of this bill. 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.760 Absolutely, absolutely, People can follow you on social media. Senator 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.159 Robert Peters is your name. They can follow me at 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.440 Laura and I Writer on Twitter or Instagram for tips 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:40.920 on how to get involved in supporting the Illinois effort, 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:43.359 as well as the crucial New York and Oregon efforts 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.920 as well. Marty, I want to let you close this out. 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:50.600 You've been extraordinarily successful despite all of these odds stacked 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.879 against you in your life. Since your exoneration, You've become 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.720 a practicing attorney, you have become an adjunct professor. I 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.000 You've become an inspiration for change. And I think that's 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.760 what we're talking about today on this podcast. What does 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.720 it mean to you that your story can and has 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.040 inspired people like Dave, people like Senator Peters to fight 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:11.920 for real change. 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.120 I just want to say two things very quickly. One 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.040 is that when you entirely get an innocent person, you 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.240 get a false confession and you arrest them, you've allowed 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:25.240 the criminal party to remain free to commit additional crimes 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.800 on our community. And you know, this bill should be 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.440 highlighted that it's not just about the coercion, it's really 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.520 about the safety of everyone involved. And you know, if 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:41.439 my voice can help make change somewhere, then you know, 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.800 maybe my suffering was meant to be somewhere. 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.119 As weird as it sounds. 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.840 But there really shouldn't be any more Marti tank lifts 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:52.960 there are. You know, very few people get to suffer 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.159 the way I have and be able to achieve what 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.119 I've been able to achieve, you know, And for me, 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:05.320 it's about education. It's about retraining and refocusing everyone's perspectives 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.959 on the system. In thak you to Senator Peters and 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.919 Dave Thompson. We're making a difference. And you know, if 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.399 we can make a change in Illinois, we can do 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:19.480 it universally and we can protect our kids. And just 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.480 to make the record clear, I'm an adjunct professor Georgetown 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.800 not Law School, and I teach the class that Georgetown 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:30.040 is nicknamed making an exonery where we use undergraduate students 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.640 to reinvestigate cases. And what's amazing is some of those 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.840