1
00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: Hey guys, this is Laura and I writer. Welcome to

2
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,600
Speaker 1: a very special breaking news episode of wrongful conviction False Confessions.

3
00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,920
Speaker 1: Here's why I'm dropping in with this episode. Over and over,

4
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,760
Speaker 1: Steve and I have told you about innocent people who

5
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,440
Speaker 1: ended up confessing the crimes they didn't commit. These stories

6
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 1: usually have a common thread interrogators who lied about the

7
00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 1: evidence to get those false confessions. Lies like your DNA

8
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,879
Speaker 1: was found at the scene, or the polygraph proves you guilty.

9
00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,480
Speaker 1: These kinds of lies are known risk factors for false confessions.

10
00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 1: But here's the breaking news. Someone is finally doing something

11
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,640
Speaker 1: about it. For the first time in US history, bills

12
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,479
Speaker 1: have just been introduced in three states to prohibit police

13
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 1: from lying during interrogations. It's happening right now in New York, Oregon,

14
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,920
Speaker 1: and my home state Illinois. I support these bills, and

15
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 1: I hope you will too. In fact, we pulled together

16
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,400
Speaker 1: today's special episode just so I could introduce you to

17
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,000
Speaker 1: three heroes who were working together to make sure we

18
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 1: make change. I'll be joined first today by New York

19
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,840
Speaker 1: exonerie Marty Tankloff. He falsely confessed to murdering his own

20
00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,200
Speaker 1: parents when he was just seventeen. Then you'll hear from

21
00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,440
Speaker 1: Illinois State Senator Robert Peters. He's the sponsor of Illinois

22
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,960
Speaker 1: Senate Bill twenty one twenty two, which would ban deception

23
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,760
Speaker 1: during interrogation. Finally, you'll hear from an old friend of mine,

24
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,000
Speaker 1: Dave Thompson. He's an experienced interrogator and police trainer who's

25
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,039
Speaker 1: with us all the way in our fight to end

26
00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 1: false confessions. I'm going to start with our guest, Marty Tankliff.

27
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,320
Speaker 1: Marty woke up one fall morning and found his dad

28
00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: in another room, severely beaten and barely alive. Unbeknownst to

29
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 1: Marty at the time, his mom had all been attacked

30
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,400
Speaker 1: in a different part of the house. In fact, she

31
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 1: had already died because of her injuries. Like anyone would do,

32
00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,360
Speaker 1: Marty called the police. But that's when an already terrible

33
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:17,120
Speaker 1: situation got even worse. So thank you so much for

34
00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: joining us, all three of you today. This is such

35
00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,079
Speaker 1: an important topic and I'm so glad we're here to

36
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,679
Speaker 1: talk about this. I want to start things off by

37
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 1: hearing from my friend Marty Tankliff. Right, Marty, you've got

38
00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,280
Speaker 1: one of the most incredible stories of wrongful conviction and

39
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 1: false confession that I've ever heard and lies about the

40
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,320
Speaker 1: evidence are at the heart of it. So let's bring

41
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,920
Speaker 1: our listeners back. You're seventeen years old, You're living with

42
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 1: mom and dad in Long Island, New York, and what

43
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 1: happens from there.

44
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,400
Speaker 2: September seventh, nineteen eighty eight, was supposed to be my

45
00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 2: first day of my senior year of high school, and

46
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,560
Speaker 2: the night before, my father held a high stakes poker

47
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,040
Speaker 2: game with his business partner, Jerry Struman and others. And

48
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,520
Speaker 2: on September seventh, I woke up up, found that my

49
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,480
Speaker 2: house was unlocked, lights were on, and I walked through

50
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,400
Speaker 2: the house and discovered my father bleeding in his office chair,

51
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 2: which is where the poker game happened the night before.

52
00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,840
Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to you and your mom was in another room

53
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,799
Speaker 1: and had actually been bludgeoned to death herself.

54
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,200
Speaker 2: I discovered my mom after that, but I knew my

55
00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,280
Speaker 2: father was alive because I performed first aid.

56
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,799
Speaker 3: I could hear him breathing. I called my one one.

57
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,400
Speaker 2: And shortly thereafter the police showed up, and I wanted

58
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 2: to go to the hospital, but law enforcement wanted information

59
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,839
Speaker 2: who they thought was responsible, and you know, we all said,

60
00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 2: my family, my friends, everybody said, Jerry Struman.

61
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 3: Jerry Stuerman, and he happened to be there the night before.

62
00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about what happened the night before.

63
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 1: You've mentioned this.

64
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,960
Speaker 2: So the night before there was a high six poker

65
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,560
Speaker 2: game that included Jerry Stuerman. And Jerry Stuman was my

66
00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 2: father's business partner, who, unbeknownst to me at that time,

67
00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 2: had threatened to cut my father's throat out, his tongue

68
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,160
Speaker 2: out weeks before my father started demanding money back from

69
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 2: Jerry Stuerman, and it was so bad that my father

70
00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,080
Speaker 2: had told the family attorney, Jerry's not going to fuck

71
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,880
Speaker 2: with me because I know where the bones are buried.

72
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,920
Speaker 2: I didn't know any of that back then. The only

73
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,880
Speaker 2: thing I knew was that there were some problems with

74
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 2: Jerry Steuerman. And I knew there were no problems with

75
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,040
Speaker 2: me or my parents. I mean, we had a loving relationship.

76
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:27,720
Speaker 3: I grew up in a.

77
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 2: Great neighborhood, great family, traveled everything with my parents, so

78
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,039
Speaker 2: I knew there was no problems with us.

79
00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,159
Speaker 1: But the police, I guess, weren't so sure. They broughady

80
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,240
Speaker 1: done to police headquarters. And what happens.

81
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,520
Speaker 2: I really wasn't clothed, I was barefoot, was wearing shorts

82
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 2: in a sweatshirt, and I was separated from family. I

83
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 2: wasn't brought to the hospital. I was driven forty five

84
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,960
Speaker 2: minutes away by Detective James McCready. I was brought up

85
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 2: to police headquarters in a windowless room that had a

86
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 2: desk and empty file cabinet, two metal chairs, no phone,

87
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,840
Speaker 2: no windows, and you know, the questioning started, you know,

88
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 2: where were you the night before?

89
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,360
Speaker 3: Who do you think was responsible?

90
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,880
Speaker 2: And that seemed to go on forever until there was

91
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,160
Speaker 2: a point where McCready left the room and he left

92
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,560
Speaker 2: the door open and you could hear him saying, really, great, really,

93
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 2: that's amazing, that's great news. Wait till I tell Marty.

94
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 2: And he came back in and he said, Marty, I

95
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 2: got great news and bad news. So the great news

96
00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 2: is they pumped your father full of adrenaline. He woke

97
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 2: up and he said, you committed the murders. You attacked

98
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 2: your mother, and your father just tell us you did that.

99
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 2: Because your father just said you did that. I mean,

100
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,960
Speaker 2: they contained by saying, listen, Marty, we have your hair

101
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,360
Speaker 2: in your mother's hands, just tell us what we want

102
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 2: to hear. Your father would want that.

103
00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:01,479
Speaker 1: Wow, that's incredible. How did you react to those lies, Marty?

104
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,920
Speaker 2: My initial gut response was like, I'll take a lot

105
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,239
Speaker 2: of detector, like I didn't do anything. But it also

106
00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 2: came to the point where it was kind of I

107
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,400
Speaker 2: guess you could say, like the floor under me just

108
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,919
Speaker 2: fell out, and kind of was like, well, if my

109
00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 2: father said I did it, maybe I did. Because my

110
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,599
Speaker 2: father's never lied to me, and police are not supposed

111
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 2: to lie to you, So I know I didn't do anything,

112
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 2: but my father's saying that it was me, and the

113
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 2: Copps are saying was me.

114
00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:27,600
Speaker 3: But I was brought up.

115
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 2: To trust the police, believe in them, and brought up

116
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,279
Speaker 2: to that they're not going to lie to you. They're

117
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:34,600
Speaker 2: your friends, they're going to help you.

118
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 1: Exactly. In fact, your dad was police commissioner, wasn't he.

119
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,680
Speaker 2: He was the police commissioner for the incorporated village of

120
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,400
Speaker 2: Beltare where we live.

121
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 1: And you start to doubt your own memory because you

122
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,600
Speaker 1: so trust the word of these authority figures, right, these

123
00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,400
Speaker 1: police officers who were telling you what another authority figure

124
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,760
Speaker 1: your dad supposedly.

125
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,560
Speaker 2: Said without a doubt, without a doubt. You kind of

126
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,360
Speaker 2: start going back and forth in your head. You kind

127
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,040
Speaker 2: of say, wait a minute, I know I didn't do anything,

128
00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 2: but they're saying I did. Screaming in your face, yelling

129
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,280
Speaker 2: at you, saying you know, Marty, we know you did this,

130
00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,360
Speaker 2: and your father is saying you did this.

131
00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,720
Speaker 1: Some people, Marty, some people that I've talked to, say,

132
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: you know what, if I was being interrogated, right, if

133
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,239
Speaker 1: I was inside the interrogation room and I was innocent

134
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: and police lied to me, it would be so easy

135
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 1: to see through those lies, right, to not be influenced

136
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 1: by those lies? Is it so easy when it's you

137
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 1: in the moment?

138
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,200
Speaker 2: No farthest thing from that. I mean, you know, I

139
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 2: wasn't somebody who was thirty who had lived a life.

140
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 3: I was a kid.

141
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 2: I was a kid who was raised to trust your

142
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,680
Speaker 2: family and cops, and in this situation, one of.

143
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 3: Them failed me.

144
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,360
Speaker 1: And it's so eventually you confessed.

145
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,200
Speaker 2: Eventually, they said I confessed. What the reality was is

146
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 2: that they didn't record anything, they didn't audio tape anything,

147
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,200
Speaker 2: and everything they said I said proved forensically to be wrong.

148
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 1: Right, But you gave the series of statements that eventually

149
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,360
Speaker 1: the officer said amounted to a confession, right, and that

150
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: was a huge part of the evidence that was used

151
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,360
Speaker 1: against you to secure your conviction in the murder of

152
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 1: your own parents, which you ended up serving seventeen years

153
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: in prison for before being exonerated. I mean, it's an

154
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 1: incredible story, and it's one in which lies about the

155
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 1: evidence are at the absolute bottom. I just want to know, Marty,

156
00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 1: when afterwards did you begin to realize that you had

157
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:32,440
Speaker 1: been lied to?

158
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 2: There were two points for me. One was when I

159
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,720
Speaker 2: had an opportunity to make a phone call to a

160
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 2: family member and the family member said, did you tell

161
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,680
Speaker 2: them that you did it? And I was like, they

162
00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,960
Speaker 2: made me. That was the only thing I could say

163
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,199
Speaker 2: on there during that phone call. But hours later, when

164
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,200
Speaker 2: I met with a family member and an attorney, I

165
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:56,000
Speaker 2: went into much more detail. And back then somebody, you know,

166
00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 2: one of them said, we were afraid of this because

167
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 2: they knew what Suffolk County's history was, and they knew

168
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,800
Speaker 2: that once I was isolated, that this was bound to happen.

169
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 1: Wow, And and what was it like to understand that

170
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 1: you've been lied to by these authority figures right by

171
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,120
Speaker 1: these police officers. When you grew up trusting, I.

172
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 2: Mean back then, it was still this disbelief. I mean

173
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,160
Speaker 2: it was almost like I was on Twilight Zone. There

174
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 2: was no way that I could be waking up that

175
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:24,720
Speaker 2: should have been one of the best days of my

176
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:30,520
Speaker 2: life to literally turning into a living hell. That destroyed

177
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,720
Speaker 2: my life, my family's life, the community for you know,

178
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,560
Speaker 2: for years, and nobody should ever go through this. I mean,

179
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 2: this is I mean, just because they lied to me.

180
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,440
Speaker 2: You know, if you didn't lie, if you did your job,

181
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 2: if you told the truth, if you would have just

182
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 2: electronically recorded we went out in that room, I may

183
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 2: not have spent almost eighteen years in prison.

184
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,760
Speaker 1: Senator I want to bring you in now, as is

185
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,440
Speaker 1: Senator Robert Peters from Illinois.

186
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

187
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 5: I mean, I guess the best way to react to

188
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,160
Speaker 5: this is what happened to Marty's damn shame and I'm

189
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,400
Speaker 5: sorry that you had to go through that, Marty. And

190
00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 5: what is so painful is that it's not surprising. We

191
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,400
Speaker 5: see this all the time. They look at you and

192
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 5: they say, you're young, you don't really know any better,

193
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 5: You're in a state of crisis, and they, instead of

194
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,720
Speaker 5: caring about figuring out what happened in this moment of

195
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,360
Speaker 5: pain and trauma. They became assured of their own answer.

196
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,959
Speaker 5: And so you know, the bill that you know I'm

197
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,960
Speaker 5: carrying in the Senate is built off of the fact

198
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 5: that countless people roughly the same age as Marty or younger. Now,

199
00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,920
Speaker 5: this happens to older folks, but the reason why young

200
00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,120
Speaker 5: folks are targeted is because there's a power dynamic at

201
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,120
Speaker 5: play and limitation and how many rights you actually have

202
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:08,040
Speaker 5: or understand to have. And it's not about people's safety,

203
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,400
Speaker 5: and it's not about trying to solve or figure out

204
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,800
Speaker 5: the trauma that's happened. And at some point it becomes

205
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:19,000
Speaker 5: purely about winning the game in which you've solved something supposedly.

206
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,959
Speaker 1: You know, Senator I think you're exactly right, Marty. You

207
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 1: spoke about Suffolk County, New York, right where this happened

208
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,920
Speaker 1: to you. But of course we know of hundreds and

209
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 1: hundreds of cases of false confession around the country, one

210
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,520
Speaker 1: hundred alone in Illinois, one hundred and fifty when you

211
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,400
Speaker 1: combine Illinois and New York, and those numbers are all

212
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,280
Speaker 1: in all probability, just the tip of the iceberg. Because

213
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,600
Speaker 1: these cases are just now starting to come to light. Marty,

214
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,839
Speaker 1: you heard the senator talk about the need to ban

215
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,400
Speaker 1: live about the evidence in the interrogation room. Does what

216
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:50,800
Speaker 1: he said resonate with you?

217
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,560
Speaker 2: First of all, thank you Senator for trying to push

218
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 2: this legislation through, because more, Marie time does have to

219
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,960
Speaker 2: be protected. You know, I think about how challenging it

220
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 2: was for me, and I think about all the young

221
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,200
Speaker 2: men and women in minority communities, the abuse that I

222
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 2: went through. I can't even fathom what someone else goes

223
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,319
Speaker 2: through in a regular basis.

224
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 3: It's me.

225
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 2: This legislation has to be passed. I mean universally, it

226
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:22,280
Speaker 2: has to be passed.

227
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 1: So at this point I want to bring in my

228
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,839
Speaker 1: good friend Dave Thompson, who's here with us as well.

229
00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,880
Speaker 1: Dave is the president of Wick Landers Zulawski. You train

230
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,640
Speaker 1: police across the country and across the globe, and you've

231
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,520
Speaker 1: also conducted a few interrogations yourself. Dave, how many would

232
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 1: you say you've done?

233
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, quite a few hundred interrogations, I'd say, Laura, kind

234
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,679
Speaker 4: of across multiple sectors and across multiple jurisdictions.

235
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 1: Wow, So there really is no one better for me?

236
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:53,440
Speaker 1: To ask, then do cops really need to lie during interrogations?

237
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,959
Speaker 4: No, there's other methods that they can be trained in

238
00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,040
Speaker 4: which we can discuss the law needs to change, and

239
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 4: we also know it increases the fear of innocent people

240
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,760
Speaker 4: like Marty just describe, and for detectives who are investigating

241
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,480
Speaker 4: somebody who is a guilty subject who does confess to

242
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,280
Speaker 4: a crime, but they used a tactic like this, all

243
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 4: that does is potentially contaminate that confession and maybe jeopardize

244
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,439
Speaker 4: the reliability of a true confession as well. So it's

245
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,280
Speaker 4: really a very high risk, low reward strategy.

246
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So if police officers don't need to lie, then

247
00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:30,040
Speaker 1: why do they do it?

248
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 4: I think the simple answer is that's how they've been

249
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,080
Speaker 4: trained and that's what they're allowed to do. It's not investigators,

250
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,120
Speaker 4: for the most part, doing something that they feel is

251
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,440
Speaker 4: unethical or unwarranted. If they're doing something that they've used

252
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,959
Speaker 4: for decades, they've been trained in that technique and maybe

253
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,199
Speaker 4: unaware of the negative implications this technique has on both

254
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,600
Speaker 4: innocent subjects and to the reliability of a true confession.

255
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,840
Speaker 4: So if we look at what's the REOs cause, what's

256
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,959
Speaker 4: the reason that we lie about evidence in the first place,

257
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 4: and it's because if that evidence doesn't exist, we have

258
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,200
Speaker 4: this bias or this belief that the person sitting in

259
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,720
Speaker 4: front of us is the guilty party, but the evidence

260
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 4: isn't there, which means we don't have enough to actually

261
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,679
Speaker 4: prove they're the guilty party. So we rely on this

262
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,840
Speaker 4: fictitious piece of information to persuade the suspect to tell

263
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 4: us they're guilty and versus let the investigation stand on

264
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,440
Speaker 4: its own. And even furthermore, you know, innocent people they

265
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,400
Speaker 4: hear that there's this perspective of evidence. Right if I said,

266
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 4: and an arson case, you know, we have video footage

267
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 4: of you starting the fire, and that doesn't exist, an

268
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,040
Speaker 4: innocent person might think, well, I hope they have video

269
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 4: footage because it'll clear my name. So almost that fictitious

270
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 4: presentation of evidence incentivizes an innocent person to just say, fine,

271
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,920
Speaker 4: yeah I did it, because they hope that evidence will

272
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 4: prove that they didn't, just to kind of find out

273
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 4: that evidence doesn't exist in the first place. So I

274
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 4: think Marty brought up one fact that investigators said, hair right,

275
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 4: his hair in his mother's hand. And so let's say

276
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 4: in a confession, somebody like Marty says, well, yeah, I

277
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 4: guess you know, she must have grabbed my hair during

278
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 4: whatever whatever happened. Now, the subject giving that information and

279
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,360
Speaker 4: a confession, did they say that because they were actually

280
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,680
Speaker 4: part of the crime they remember that happening, Or did

281
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 4: they say that because that's what the investigators fact fed

282
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 4: to them during the interview. So they're just agreeing to it.

283
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 4: When you have somebody of a youthful age, they're looking

284
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 4: at how do I escape this immediate situation and get

285
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 4: back to safety. And that's what results in the false

286
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 4: confession is I have faith that this evidence is going

287
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,080
Speaker 4: to prove my innocence to be true. Let me say

288
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,720
Speaker 4: whatever I need to get the hell out of the

289
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,080
Speaker 4: room and get back to safety, and let let the

290
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 4: lawyers figure it out afterwards. Unfortunately, we see what that

291
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 4: has turned into.

292
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,960
Speaker 1: I would imagine that when people sign up to be

293
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 1: police officers, right when they joined police forces, they want

294
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 1: to be the good guys. And then at a certain point,

295
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 1: police officers who become interrogators learn that as a part

296
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 1: of their job they're expected to lie. Are there some

297
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,840
Speaker 1: cops out there who maybe aren't come struggle with that.

298
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 4: First of all, the goal and most investigators are well

299
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,000
Speaker 4: intended to try to represent a victim or a victim's family,

300
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,080
Speaker 4: or whoever might have been harmed in one of these cases.

301
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 4: And so when you go into an investigation or an

302
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 4: interrogation and you have this predisposed belief of who the

303
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,120
Speaker 4: guilty suspect is, and you've been trained that lying about

304
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 4: evidence is a strategical way to get to a confession,

305
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 4: then yeah, that's what a lot of officers are focused on. However,

306
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 4: I think there's an overwhelming discomfort, especially with new detectives,

307
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,239
Speaker 4: to be put into a position where their own integrity

308
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,240
Speaker 4: is and jeopardy where they know, if I lie to

309
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,560
Speaker 4: somebody about the evidence today, what does that do for

310
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,400
Speaker 4: my credibility tomorrow. I think there's a overwhelming support of

311
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,200
Speaker 4: law enforcement for more clear direction and distinction about what

312
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 4: should be done so we can still solve cases, but

313
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 4: do it in the most ethical and scientifically based way.

314
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,440
Speaker 1: Tell me, Dave, what does an interrogation look like if

315
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,240
Speaker 1: you take away lies about the evidence.

316
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 4: It looks like asking open ended questions, a conversation where

317
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 4: the investigator doesn't have a goal of a confession, but

318
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 4: has a goal of obtaining actionable, reliable information less of

319
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,199
Speaker 4: having confirmation bias and tunnel vision non coersive evidence based

320
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 4: interview methods that are progressively gaining traction across the United States.

321
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,199
Speaker 1: Senator, I want to go back to you for just

322
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,360
Speaker 1: one minute. You've introduced this bill, of course, in your

323
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 1: home state of Illinois, and you're in great company because

324
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,440
Speaker 1: there are similar bills that have been introduced in New York,

325
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 1: where Marty is from, and in Oregon as well, other

326
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 1: bills that would ban lying about the evidence in the

327
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: interrogation room. What does it mean to you to be

328
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: part of this national ground swell for change?

329
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 5: Wow? So I think that I always think like when

330
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 5: you try to make changes to something systemic, you can't

331
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,360
Speaker 5: just go it alone. And so to me, it's not

332
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 5: just having it be Illinois, New York, or organ but

333
00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:06,920
Speaker 5: to see it across the country.

334
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 4: Right.

335
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,719
Speaker 5: But I also think it's just important that if we

336
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 5: can do this in Illinois, a complex state, same with Oregon,

337
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 5: same with New York, other states should try to follow

338
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 5: and do the same thing.

339
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 1: I think that's well said. And Dave in how many

340
00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 1: states is deception used during interrogations?

341
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 4: I mean the Supreme court law is allowing it to

342
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,400
Speaker 4: be used across the United States. We've seen a lot

343
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,440
Speaker 4: of jurisdictions starting to move forward away from that proactively. Right,

344
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 4: we can start training officers now, and we have been

345
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,440
Speaker 4: on methods that you don't need to use those tactics,

346
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 4: and we start to look outside the United States.

347
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:42,639
Speaker 3: You know, the UK has.

348
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,920
Speaker 4: Banned deception for decades in their interview models. Canada has

349
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,479
Speaker 4: been moving away from it. So this is not a

350
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 4: new problem by any means. It's just finally a solution

351
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:51,719
Speaker 4: to that problem.

352
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 3: I think it is.

353
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 1: It's a free, groundbreaking solution to this problem. Senator, you

354
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,040
Speaker 1: have introduced Illinois Senate Bill twenty one, which would ban

355
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 1: deception in the interrogation room. Where do we go from here?

356
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 1: How can people get involved in supporting your effort to

357
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:08,679
Speaker 1: ban deception.

358
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 5: Let's put pressure on legislators. Let's shine a light on

359
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,640
Speaker 5: Illinois as a model for rarely, whether that's Montana or Florida,

360
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,200
Speaker 5: take this bill as piece of model legislation and say

361
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 5: that this is something that needs to happen in New states.

362
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,919
Speaker 5: So let me repeat that Montana or Florida should have

363
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 5: their own version of this bill.

364
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, People can follow you on social media. Senator

365
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,159
Speaker 1: Robert Peters is your name. They can follow me at

366
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 1: Laura and I Writer on Twitter or Instagram for tips

367
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,920
Speaker 1: on how to get involved in supporting the Illinois effort,

368
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,359
Speaker 1: as well as the crucial New York and Oregon efforts

369
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 1: as well. Marty, I want to let you close this out.

370
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: You've been extraordinarily successful despite all of these odds stacked

371
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 1: against you in your life. Since your exoneration, You've become

372
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,720
Speaker 1: a practicing attorney, you have become an adjunct professor. I

373
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 1: You've become an inspiration for change. And I think that's

374
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 1: what we're talking about today on this podcast. What does

375
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 1: it mean to you that your story can and has

376
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 1: inspired people like Dave, people like Senator Peters to fight

377
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 1: for real change.

378
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,120
Speaker 2: I just want to say two things very quickly. One

379
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 2: is that when you entirely get an innocent person, you

380
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 2: get a false confession and you arrest them, you've allowed

381
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 2: the criminal party to remain free to commit additional crimes

382
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 2: on our community. And you know, this bill should be

383
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 2: highlighted that it's not just about the coercion, it's really

384
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 2: about the safety of everyone involved. And you know, if

385
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,439
Speaker 2: my voice can help make change somewhere, then you know,

386
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 2: maybe my suffering was meant to be somewhere.

387
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 3: As weird as it sounds.

388
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 2: But there really shouldn't be any more Marti tank lifts

389
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: there are. You know, very few people get to suffer

390
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,159
Speaker 2: the way I have and be able to achieve what

391
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 2: I've been able to achieve, you know, And for me,

392
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: it's about education. It's about retraining and refocusing everyone's perspectives

393
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,959
Speaker 2: on the system. In thak you to Senator Peters and

394
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 2: Dave Thompson. We're making a difference. And you know, if

395
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 2: we can make a change in Illinois, we can do

396
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 2: it universally and we can protect our kids. And just

397
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 2: to make the record clear, I'm an adjunct professor Georgetown

398
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: not Law School, and I teach the class that Georgetown

399
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: is nicknamed making an exonery where we use undergraduate students

400
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 2: to reinvestigate cases. And what's amazing is some of those

401
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 2: students have been through tragedies that we've spoken about today,

402
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 2: either directly or indirectly. And to me, that's the next

403
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: generation of freedom fighters for us.

404
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: Well. Inspired by you, Marty very much, and by you

405
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 1: Senator Peters, and by you Dave Thank you all so

406
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 1: much for joining us today. It has been a fascinating conversation.

407
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 1: Best of luck with everything that each one of you

408
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,239
Speaker 1: is doing to change the world, make a difference, like

409
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 1: Marty says, and most importantly, make sure that we're advancing

410
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 1: this fight against wrongful convictions.

411
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you, Lura.

412
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 1: All right, take care, guys. That's all the time we have,

413
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 1: but I hope you get just how important it is

414
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 1: to support Illinois State Senate Bill twenty one to twenty two.

415
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: There will be a vote on the bill Friday, April sixteenth,

416
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: so we need you to weigh in now. Sign up

417
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: to get involved at Innocenceproject dot org, slash pledge, or

418
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 1: tweet your support to the Illinois Senate Democrats at ill

419
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: send deems that's il s E n d e MS

420
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: to learn how to support similar efforts in New York,

421
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: Oregon and other states. You can also follow me at

422
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: Laura and I Wrider on Instagram or Twitter. Be well everyone,

423
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: and thanks again to our guests. Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions

424
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association

425
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one. Special thanks to our executive

426
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wardis. This episode was produced

427
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: by Riva Goldberg and Connor Hall. Followed the show on

428
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Twitter at wrong Conviction