1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick. Today we're bringing you an older 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: episode of the show, an episode from the vault. This 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: is part three of the series that we started running 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: last Saturday. This is called The Sunken Lands. This episode, 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: in particular, aired originally on December fifth, twenty twenty three. 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 3: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick. 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: And we're back with part three in our series called 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: the Sunken Lands, about places on Earth that were relatively 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: recently solid land but are now covered by the waters. 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: In the previous two parts of this series, we discussed myths, legends, 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: and obsolete theories of sunken lands, including the most popular 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: drowned civilization Atlantis, an advanced island state discussed in the 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: writings of Plato, which the majority of experts on the 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: original sources seem to think is best interpreted as a 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: fictional setting used to illustrate a point in Plato's writings, 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: rather than a reference to a real place that actually existed, 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: but of course, that does not stop the many Atlantis 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: hunters of the Internet. 23 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: Right, and it doesn't stop the human imagination which has 24 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 3: gone wild with the concept, as we discussed in many 25 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: responsible ways and occasionally irresponsible ways as well. Right. 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: So, we also talked about the very real sunken land 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: mass now known as dogger Land, which was a vast 28 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: plane connecting Great Britain to mainland Europe during and for 29 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: several thousand years following the Last Ice Age. Doggerland is 30 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: a fascinating mystery that archaeologists and other scientists are learning 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: more about all the time. But one of the most 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: intriguing things that we've learned is that this drowned world 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: was not only inhabited by humans for the few thousand 34 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: years after it began warming at the beginning of the Holocene. 35 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: It was something many experts have described it as something 36 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: of a paradise, rich with resources, and possibly one of 37 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: the most densely populated places in Middle Stone Age Europe. 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: But of course it was eventually smothered underneath rising seas 39 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: and also battered by a colossal tsunami from an underwater 40 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: landslide around sixty two hundred BCE. After that, we talked 41 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: about cases of alleged vanishing islands in the Pacific, including 42 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: reasons for thinking that some of these accounts are genuine. 43 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: One example that you brought up, rob is the island 44 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: of Taeo Nimanu, a former island described in the oral 45 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: traditions of some of the Solomon Islanders, which allegedly sang 46 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 1: the waves in a rapid seismic event. So this happened suddenly, 47 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: and some people barely escaped in canoes, And according to 48 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: the sources we were looking at last time, it is 49 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: thought that this probably did actually happen. 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. 51 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: Though there are of course many other examples of alleged 52 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 1: vanishing islands, being more likely just cases of mistaken identification 53 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: in the first instance, probably. We discussed reasons for possibly 54 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: mistaking something for an island, maybe visual illusions like fatimorgana, 55 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: or being mistaken about where you are when you see 56 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: an actual island, or mistaking patches of things floating in 57 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: the water for land. One example we talked about was seaweed, 58 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: another was volcanic pumice rafts, and then everybody's favorite, the 59 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: possibility that somebody could mistake white oily scum left over 60 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: after seasonal worm sex as some indication of a land mass. 61 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: It's absolutely in the mix. 62 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about another example of a quite 63 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: real sunken land that we have tons of evidence for. 64 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: Many people were probably thinking about it when we were 65 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: talking about dogger Land, because this is, perhaps, at least 66 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: to North Americans, the even more famous sunken land bridge 67 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: between two continental masses, and that would be the submerged 68 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: plains of Beringia. This refers to an area of the 69 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: globe between northwestern North America, including Alaska and Northwest Canada 70 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: on one side, and northeastern Russia on the other. And 71 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: it is now thought that during the Late Pleistocene, so 72 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: the Last Ice Age, huge expanses of what are now 73 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: the Bearing Sea, the Bearing Strait, and the Chuckchi Sea 74 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: were lands exposed by dropping sea levels. So the geological 75 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: story of Beringia has some things in common with the 76 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: story of dogger Land, which we talked about previously. The 77 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: lower sea levels of the Pleistocene were associated with massive 78 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: glacier formation. During the last Glacial maximum roughly twenty thousand 79 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: years ago, about twenty five percent of the Earth's land 80 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: surface and about eight percent of its total surface was 81 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: covered in ice, and global sea level was like four 82 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: hundred feet lower than it is today. It's hard to 83 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: imagine the amount of ice unless maybe you have been 84 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: to Antarctica or something. And at that time much of 85 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: North America, basically almost all of the current area of Canada, 86 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: especially east of the Rocky Mountains, but reaching as far 87 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: south as Ohio and Indiana in the United States, all 88 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: of that was covered in an ice formation known as 89 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: the Laurentide ice Sheet, which at its greatest extent was 90 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: more than thirteen million square kilometers and at its thickest, 91 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: probably near the middle, may have been up to three 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: thousand meters tall, which is almost two miles high of ice. 93 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to imagine. Again, and during this 94 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: time of lower sea levels, it has long been thought 95 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: that the much of the exposed land of Beringia probably 96 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: was some kind of step tundra environment, a sort of cold, 97 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: arid grassland. But at the end of the Pleistocene, roughly 98 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: ten to twelve thousand years ago, the earth began to warm, 99 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: ice melted, and sea levels rose, and these were the trends, 100 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: of course, that eventually covered doggerland and water, and the 101 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: same happened to the exposed lands of Beringia. Now there 102 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: is no land bridge connecting North America to Asia, but 103 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: at the time there was, it served as an important 104 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: corridor of exchange between the continents, with evidence showing that plants, animals, 105 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: and people spread through and across it. Now a lot 106 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: of people probably know that the Beringia land Bridge plays 107 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: a role in several of the current competing major theories 108 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: of how people came to occupy the Americas, though there 109 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: are of course competing explanations even within that space. For example, 110 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: the question of whether the first people to come to 111 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: North America traveled by land and found a way south 112 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: through an ice free inland corridor, and if they did 113 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: that at what time, or whether those people migrated along 114 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: the coastline of Beringia mostly traveling by boat, surviving along 115 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: the way with the help of kelp forests and other 116 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: coastal resources. So there are still lots of open questions 117 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: in that debate. 118 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 3: But we know this was the corridor for the exchange 119 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 3: of many different species, and we've discussed some examples of 120 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 3: this on the show before, ranging from you know, of 121 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 3: course human beings to also things like species of camel. 122 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: And other things that I didn't even think about until 123 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: I was reading for this episode, like the gray wolf, 124 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: the exchange of the wolf. 125 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 126 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: Now, an interesting thing I was thinking about was a 127 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: similarity with dogger Land. As we mentioned with dogger Land, 128 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: the phrase land bridge can potentially be deceptive. On one hand, 129 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: it does sort of accurately describe what happens when sea 130 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: levels drop and a ground corridor is established between two 131 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: land masses that used to be and or would later 132 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: be separated by water. On the other hand, the term 133 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: bridge kind of creates the impression of a transitional space 134 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: that one merely crosses to get from one side to 135 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: the other. Like you don't build a house in the 136 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: middle of a bridge. Well, I guess you might if 137 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: it's one of those bridges without buildings on it in 138 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: Italy or France or wherever. But but you know what 139 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: I mean, most of the time, you don't set up 140 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: camp in the middle of a bridge. 141 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think this is this is 142 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: this is a concept that always kind of comes to 143 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: mind whenever I'm reading about land bridges. On some level, 144 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 3: you're imagining it as a situation where like the wolves 145 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 3: and the camels are like, hey, guys, there's a temporary 146 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 3: passage between these two land masses. Let's all go get 147 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: at it. And you know, everybody rushes to get from 148 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 3: one side to the other, and then the land bridge 149 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,119 Speaker 3: goes away. 150 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: Right, So that can be kind of deceptive. In the 151 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: case of Doggerland, we know that not only was the 152 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: now flooded land inhabited by Neanderthals and later Mesolithic Homo 153 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: sapiens during its brief warm period, for the few thousand 154 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: years between the end of the Pleistocene and the time 155 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 1: it was under the water, it was probably one of 156 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: the most resource abundant places in Europe, and as I 157 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: said earlier, it may have been one of the most 158 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: densely populated as well. So with that in mind, to 159 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: what extent could we also think of Beringia more as 160 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: a destination in itself, a place to be, rather than 161 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: just a way to get somewhere. Well, in fact, we 162 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: know that it was a habitat environment for many terrestrial 163 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: plants and animals, and so the real question is to 164 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: what extent this would be true for people as well. 165 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: So I came across one paper from twenty fourteen, raising 166 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: a few lines of evidence for thinking that the large, 167 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: now submerged plane in the middle of the Bearing Land 168 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: Bridge was actually a relatively habitable refuge for plants, animals, 169 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: and people during the last glacial maximum and may have 170 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: been home to an isolated population of Native American ancestors 171 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: for thousands of years. So the paper is called out 172 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: of Beringia question Mark, published in the journal Science in 173 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen by Hoffiker, Elias and O'Rourke, and one of 174 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: the core pieces of evidence here is a sampling of 175 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: mitochondrial DNA from more than six hundred Native American people 176 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: in the present, most of whom shared unique mitochondrial DNA 177 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: mutations not shared by their closest relatives in Asia, indicating 178 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: that most likely they can trace their ancestry back to 179 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: a group of people that was living isolated from people 180 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: in the rest of Asia for thousands of years, perhaps 181 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: ten thousand years or so, before spreading across the continents 182 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: of North and South America. And if this is in 183 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: fact the case, where would this population of people be living, 184 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: perhaps in a region of Beringia that supported long term settlement. Now, 185 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: you might think, but wait a minute, it wasn't Beringia 186 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: too cold and arid and free of resources not necessarily. 187 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: Palaeoecological evidence is showing that parts of central Beringia may 188 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: have actually been more rich in plant and animal resources 189 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: that would potentially support continued human habitation. And this evidence 190 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: includes things cited by these authors like sediment cores that 191 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: you would take from the bottom of the Bering Sea, 192 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: so you like core out an area of the sediment 193 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: strata there and see what's in it. And it turns 194 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: out these sediment samples contain remnants of pollen and other 195 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: plant matter and insects that indicate that while outer regions 196 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: of Beringia may have been more inhospitable and arid, very 197 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: like dry cold step lands, the central lowlands of Beringia 198 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: may very well have had plenty of animal populations for 199 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: hunting and especially important woody plants which could have been 200 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: used as fuel for fires. And as we know, wood 201 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: is a big deal. There there was not a whole 202 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: lot of wood available in the Arctic at the time 203 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: due to the extent the extent of the glaciers, and 204 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: fuel for fire can make the difference between a place 205 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: being able to sustain human life or not so. 206 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 3: Already we're painting an entirely different picture of a quote 207 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 3: unquote land Bridge than I think a lot of us 208 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 3: might have had in our head right. 209 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: So to quote lead author John Hoffecker, who is a 210 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: professor at the University of Colorado Boulder. Speaking to Live Science, 211 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: he said, quote, the central part of Beringia was probably 212 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: the mildest, most comfortable place to live at high latitudes 213 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: during the last glacial maximum. It is the most logical 214 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: place for a group of people to hunker down, and 215 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: the term used for this area is a glacial refugium, 216 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: a place where organisms can survive despite hostile conditions in 217 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: the surrounding areas. So this might have been a sort 218 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: of warmer, milder, wetter area in the middle of very cold, dry, 219 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: or glaciated areas that would be able to maintain all 220 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: of this diversity of species like shrub trees that you 221 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: could burn for wood, and animals that could sustain human hunting, 222 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: and possibly people living there for thousands of years. So 223 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: the idea of many millennia of people living isolated in 224 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: this refugium is sometimes referred to as the Barringian standstill 225 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 1: hypothesis and though it's not meant to. I feel like 226 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: this is another one where the word choice brings some 227 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: of the wrong connotations, because stand still kind of like 228 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: bridge it to me, at least, it implies a connotation 229 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: that like, these people would have been trying to get 230 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: somewhere and then they were stalled or delayed, rather than 231 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: this is simply where and how people were living their lives, 232 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: just like anywhere else on earth. 233 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 3: Yeah again, because you're talking about thousands of years here, 234 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: You're not talking about again, this brief opportunity to move 235 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 3: from point A to point B. It is instead the 236 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 3: emergence of a point C. 237 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: At least, I feel like the historical perspective we have 238 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: often leads to misconceptions like this, Like when you look 239 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: back through history, we know or simply have an idea 240 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: right or wrong of what happened before and after a 241 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: period of time. And with that historical perspective, I think 242 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: we often have a hard time understanding that people within 243 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: that period probably did not think of themselves as transitional 244 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: between two things, but were trying to live their lives 245 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: like anyone else. And you know, I was having the 246 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: same pattern of thoughts about dogger Land, like we now 247 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: know that it was really only this lush buffet of 248 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: a world for a few thousand years in Doggerland. But 249 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: to the people living there it was it was probably 250 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: just home, right. 251 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean to your point, like this was to them, 252 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 3: To them, this was the world. You know, they not 253 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 3: to discount the possibility that they had some oral traditions 254 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: or so forth of the places they came from or 255 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 3: the world before. But you know it E'SCW. You know, 256 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: hindsight is twenty twenty and that certainly applies to our 257 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 3: understanding of history. 258 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: I guess the other way of looking at it is 259 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: that on a on a long enough time scale, all 260 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: people living in all places at all times are living 261 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: in transitional points. 262 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 3: Yes, that's interesting to think about because it kind of 263 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 3: comes back to what we discussed in previous episodes about 264 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 3: golden ages, lost golden ages, the thing that that we're 265 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 3: trying to reclaim or try trying to find again. You know, 266 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: that also kind of loses side of the fact that 267 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: life is is continually a state of change and and 268 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 3: there it's always in a state of transition, and you know, 269 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: it reminds me, I forget what talk this was, but 270 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 3: there was a talk that Terrence McKenna gave where he 271 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 3: used the line and if something needs to be done, 272 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: you will find yourself doing it, which I think I 273 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: forget the exact context of it, but you know, it 274 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: kind of speaks to to how human beings have survived 275 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: and and and and grown and expanded so much over 276 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: the course of their existence. They have expanded into new areas, 277 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: they have left areas, they have changed, they have they 278 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: have rolled with the punches of transition. And but at 279 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 3: the same time, you know, created these these stories and 280 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 3: looked back longingly at supposed better times, whether or not 281 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 3: they were actually better. 282 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: That's a good point. But to come back to the 283 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: Barringian standstill hypothesis, it is important to remember that this 284 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: is just a hypothesis. Like it would need more direct 285 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: evidence in its favor, such as especially archaeological discoveries, which 286 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: had not been found at the time this article was published. 287 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: And I looked around and couldn't find any evidence of 288 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: archaeological discoveries backing it up since then, and critics of 289 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: this hypothesis argue that not only do we not have 290 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: archaeological evidence, we probably should expect to have found some 291 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: by now, since not all of this territory is underwater, 292 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: though a lot of it is. But either way, so 293 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: we don't know. This is an idea, it may or 294 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: may not be correct. But if this idea is correct, 295 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: once the surrounding glaciers began to melt, the ideas that 296 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: the Burringian people probably expanded their territory and then moved 297 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: on down the coastline and into the interior of the 298 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: North American continent and spread on from there. But the 299 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: ultimate point about the land being that much like Doggerland, 300 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: this is an area that was land when when the 301 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: glaciers were at their peak, when when the water was 302 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: locked in the ice, and so there were these vast 303 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: stretches of plains that are now buried beneath the sea. 304 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: And there's probably a lot more that we could know 305 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: about them more easily if it were not underneath the sea, 306 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: and we could, you know, just go around and do 307 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: digs and look for palaeontological remains, you know, animal remains, 308 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: plant remains, and and see if we could find human 309 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: tools and remains of what people were doing in these places. 310 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: But it's again more challenging because of the water covering things. 311 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, well, that's fascinating. Again, that kind of essentially 312 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 3: kind of turns over this loose idea that I had 313 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: in my head of land bridges. So this might be 314 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 3: an interesting general topic to come back to in the future. Now, 315 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 3: in all this talk of some lands and lost islands 316 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 3: in particular that we got into in the last episode, 317 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 3: I thought it might be fun to explore something that 318 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 3: lines up with this concept in a unique way, and 319 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: that is the topic of atolls or atalls. You apparently 320 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 3: can say it both ways, and hey, I might just 321 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 3: say it both ways this week proceed here. Uh So, 322 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 3: these are essentially coral reefs in circling a lagoon. They're 323 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 3: not always circular, but there are some stunning examples of 324 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: circular atolls, and you can you've you've probably seen pictures 325 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 3: of these. There are numerous examples of them. Big Blue 326 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 3: Hole Belize is one that is commonly mentioned and commonly photographed. 327 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 3: But it's like, yeah, you have this this circular reef 328 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 3: reef islands and then in the middle more water. So 329 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 3: it looks like, you know, this looks like something is missing, right, 330 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 3: And this is certainly invited curiosity over over the many 331 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: years here as long as people have been in calendar 332 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 3: them because it raises the question how did they form? 333 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 3: This was actually a question that none other than Charles 334 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 3: Darwin considered on the Voyage of the Ahms Beagle during 335 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 3: the eighteen thirties. So when I was reading about that, 336 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 3: I had to pull open his book, The Voyage of 337 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 3: the Beagle. And yeah, he gets into this at one point, 338 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: and he writes about some of the theories of the day 339 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 3: that he was less convinced by. So the first idea 340 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: he brings up is that quote, coral building, animals instinctively 341 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: built up their great circles to afford themselves protection in 342 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 3: the inner parts. So that would seem to imply that, yeah, 343 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 3: you have coral is like growing up from the seabed 344 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 3: and building a great ring so that they can have 345 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: like a protected area in the middle. And on this 346 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 3: theory he points out that, okay, coral don't thrive within 347 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 3: the atl lagoon. And this would be a case in 348 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: which quote many species of distinct genera and families are 349 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 3: supposed to come buind for one end, and of such 350 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: a combination, not a single instance can be found in 351 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: the whole of nature. 352 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: M Okay, So the creatures forming the reef would have 353 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: to be all working together to protect this inner area. 354 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: But also, he points out, like you don't really see 355 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: the coral doing much in the inner area. It's not 356 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: like they're, oh, that's the place where they keep all 357 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: their soft parts. They're just not really in there. 358 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. And then additionally, where else in the natural world 359 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 3: do we see this kind of like cross genera cooperation 360 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 3: going on. I mean, I guess you could. You know, 361 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 3: there's some little instances here and there where you talk 362 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 3: about you know, prey animal communication and alerting, you know, 363 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 3: generally to the idea of predators in their myths, but 364 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 3: something a lot on the scale of this, he argues, 365 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: we don't. 366 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: Really see it, Okay. 367 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: The next theory he mentions is that atolls are based 368 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 3: on submarine craters, and he points out that this doesn't 369 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 3: hold up when you look at all the examples in 370 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 3: the world that were known at the time. It just 371 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 3: simply doesn't account for everything. Another idea that he explores 372 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 3: is the idea that coral edges were exposed to the 373 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 3: outer sea and along these edges grew up more quickly. 374 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 3: But as with theory one, the question remains, what did 375 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 3: they grow on he stresses that rebuilding corals cannot live 376 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: at great depth, and therefore, like what would grow up 377 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 3: then to be, it doesn't make sense that they would 378 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 3: start deep down and then grow up, because we know 379 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 3: that these corals that live near the surface don't thrive 380 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 3: in the deep water, right, So. 381 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: It's only in the the shallow. Living corals only live 382 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 1: in these areas that are already shallow for some reason. 383 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: Like it's like it's almost an island. 384 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 3: Right right. And it's worth noting that there are deep 385 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 3: water corals and they do produce deep sea reefs, but 386 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 3: it's structurally different, apparently. So he writes at fair length 387 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 3: about all of this and about what he thinks is happening, 388 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 3: And here's a section that more or less encapsulates it. Quote, 389 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 3: as the barrier re slowly sinks down, the corals will 390 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 3: go on vigorously growing upwards. But as the island sinks 391 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 3: this would be the island around which the reef is formed. 392 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 3: He continues, the water will gain inch by inch on 393 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 3: the shore, the separate mountains first forming separate islands within 394 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: one great reef, and finally the last and highest pinnacle 395 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: disappearing the instant this takes place, a perfect atoll is formed. 396 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: I have said, removed the high land from within the 397 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 3: an encircling barrier reef, and an atoll is left, and 398 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 3: the land has been removed. We can now perceive how 399 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 3: it comes that atolls, having sprung from encircling barrier reefs, 400 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 3: resemble them in general size form, in the manner in 401 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 3: which they are coupled together, and in their arrangement in 402 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: single or double lines. For they may be called rude 403 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 3: outlined charts of the sunken islands over which they stand. 404 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: M okay. So the idea there would be a volcanic 405 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: island that forms, it gradually begins to sink, but as 406 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: it is sinking, the barrier reef is built up to 407 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: encircle it in the shallow water around it, and that 408 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: height comes up as the central island just continues to 409 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: go down. So an atoll, to come back to the 410 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: idea of sort of transitional landforms, is somewhere in between 411 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: a volcanic island and eventually fully sunken island. 412 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: Right. And in this case, yeah, the volcanic island is 413 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: no longer active and it's falling away. Meanwhile, the coral 414 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,239 Speaker 3: is alive and it's building up. 415 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: Hm, that makes sense? 416 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 3: Was he right? Well, it's interesting so that this is 417 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 3: generally referred to as the subsistence model, and it does it. 418 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 3: It seems like it's very much in the mix today. 419 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 3: You certainly see it sided all over the place, and 420 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: it pops up in textbooks and so forth. But not 421 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 3: everyone loves it, and there are some very vocal experts 422 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 3: who who say this is really this really does a 423 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 3: explain everything, and we ultimately need to look maybe more 424 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: at another theory, or ultimately look at sort of a 425 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: host of theories, and that maybe we should get away 426 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 3: from the idea that one theory in general is going 427 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 3: to explain every formation like this that we find in 428 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: the world's oceans. There's another key formation theory called the 429 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 3: antecedent Karst model, and this one proposes that dropping sea 430 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 3: levels that this has to do with like cyclical changes 431 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 3: in sea level over time. It proposes that dropping sea 432 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 3: levels expose the top of a flat topped bank of 433 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 3: carbonate rocks, and then while this is exposed again for 434 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 3: life with our land bridge model, not for just a 435 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 3: couple of days, but for an extended period of time, 436 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 3: rain water steadily pools in the flat topped bank and 437 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: dissolves some of the carbonate, forming a depression. Eventually, sea 438 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 3: levels rise again and fresh coral builds up a top 439 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 3: this raised circuit edge. Again, roughly speaking, it doesn't have 440 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: to be anything remotely resembling a perfect circle. But then 441 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 3: the coral builds up on this raised circular edge of 442 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 3: the depression. This forms the atoll according to this theory. 443 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 3: So again, it has a lot to do with cyclical 444 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 3: changes in sea level. 445 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so much. Kind of like how a cave 446 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: is formed in limestone by like rainwater coming down or 447 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: water rushing through and dissolving some of the sedimentary rock 448 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: and eventually forming a cave. Here, the idea would be 449 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: that in the times when a seamount or island top 450 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: is exposed by lowering sea levels, the rainwater comes down 451 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: and sort of it dissolves it in kind of the 452 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: same way that rainwater dissolves a cave cavity, and it 453 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: lowers the central area of the island, But of course 454 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: the coral is still building up the reef all around 455 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: that central raised area. 456 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my understanding of this. Alexander Witz wrote a 457 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: great article about the antecedent Carse model back in twenty 458 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 3: twenty one for Noble magazine and was then reprinted on Smithsonian, 459 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 3: where you can also find it. So I was reading 460 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 3: about that here, and the author makes several key points 461 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 3: that I wanted to draw out for this discussion. First 462 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 3: of all, the author rights that experts that generally agree 463 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 3: that Darwin got it wrong with his theory, they also 464 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 3: admit that he crafted a very insightful theory for the 465 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 3: day given the limited amount of data. Also, some reefs 466 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: may have still formed via the method that Darwin is 467 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 3: describing here, such as some atolls found in Tahiti. And 468 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: in any case, they often stressed it we shouldn't look 469 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 3: maybe for one unifying theory for atoll formation, because there 470 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 3: may ultimately be a handful of explanations in the mix, 471 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 3: including things like tectonic forces and wave action. Ah. 472 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: That's a good point. Yeah, there could be multiple mechanisms 473 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: create similar looking formations. 474 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. The author also points out that understanding the varying 475 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 3: reasons in play also helps us to understand which atolls 476 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 3: are most at risk from climate change and rising sea levels. 477 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 3: The author writes, quote, in the absence of humans, atolls 478 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: can grow at a rate much faster than that of 479 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 3: sea level rise. But people have degraded natural atolls by 480 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 3: introducing pollution and waste, altering the water table, and adding 481 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 3: concrete and asphalt that smothers the underlying coral. The Maldives 482 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 3: in the Indian Ocean face a future of flooding, water contamination, 483 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 3: and erosion that threaten its tourism and fishery industries. The Malieves, 484 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: by the way, according to the article, may have formed 485 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 3: more due to the action of waves wave based erosion 486 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 3: than by the clarsification theory that I was talking about earlier, 487 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 3: at least according to one study. But to come back 488 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: to just the topic of sunken lands and sunken islands 489 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 3: in general, yea, I think atolls fit into the concept those. 490 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 3: So the added discussion and or disagreement concerns exactly how 491 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: central exposed land masses may have formed and or fallen away, 492 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 3: and you know to what extent it involves things essentially, 493 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: you know, rising from the ocean or then sinking back 494 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 3: below the depths. Because both Darwin and the carcidification theories 495 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: entail a central exposed land mass or island around which 496 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 3: the coreal builds. 497 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: I mean part of me would wonder if you could 498 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: just do some extent tell the difference between these by 499 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: looking at the kind of rock, because in Darwin's theory, 500 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: for example, if the idea is that the island is 501 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: volcanic in origin, wouldn't you be mainly looking at volcanic 502 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: rock leftover in the middle, whereas if it's a karc 503 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: process you would be looking at sedimentary rock in the middle. 504 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: Am I wrong about that? 505 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 3: The article I said it does go into more detail 506 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 3: about this, And yeah, it's my understanding that a lot 507 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 3: of what we know now it does hinge upon geologic 508 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 3: evidence that we just that Darwin wasn't exposed to then 509 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: did not have back in the day, And so we 510 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 3: do know a lot more about what sorts of rocks 511 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 3: are underlying any given land mass that we're discussing. 512 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: So I guess if the larcification explanation has come more 513 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: into favor, that would suggest that more often the coral 514 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: Atoll is found around a like a limestone formation rather 515 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: than a volcanic rock formation. 516 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 3: That would seem to be the case. But again, based 517 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 3: on what I was reading, it sounds like it is 518 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 3: maybe a suite of the theories that we might turn 519 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 3: to as opposed to again one unifying theory for all 520 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: of these atolls. Now, as we touched on during the 521 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 3: first episode, I wanted to come back around to this 522 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 3: because water levels don't only rise due to geologic events 523 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 3: and storms and global warming. It also occurs when humans 524 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 3: build dams to form artificial lakes. Well, I mean, I 525 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: guess you could maybe make an argument for beavers as well, 526 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 3: but especially humans. That's true, humans can pour concrete, but 527 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 3: you know this allows humans to otherwise manipulate rivers and lakes, 528 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 3: and it's worth stressing that in addition to hydro electricity. 529 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 3: And you'll know this if you've ever visited a dam 530 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 3: and gone through like a you know the educational portion 531 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 3: of the dam in addition to producing electricity. Another major 532 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 3: reason for dams is to often detame rivers that periodically 533 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 3: endanger neighboring and low lying areas. But in doing so 534 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 3: in creating lakes, we of course sometimes sink formerly inhabited lands, 535 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 3: both ancient and modern. And of course this has taken 536 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 3: place all over the world. There are so many examples 537 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 3: that we could turn to, but I thought I might 538 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: highlight some examples that stood out to me and of course, 539 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 3: many others come up. We may bring them up later, 540 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 3: and certainly feel free to write in about examples that 541 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: come to your mind. But one that is often mentioned is, 542 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 3: of course the site of Abu Simbel in Egypt. This 543 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 3: was an ancient rock cut temple complex near the current 544 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 3: Egyptian Sudanese border, and it dates back to the thirteenth 545 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 3: century BCE. This site was threatened by Lake Nasser. This 546 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 3: is the Aswan Dam reservoir during the twentieth century, but 547 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty eight it was actually relocated to another site, 548 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: so a massive relocation effort to move everything to a 549 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 3: higher elevation further away from the water. Another famous dam, 550 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 3: of course is the Three Gorgeous Dam in China. That 551 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 3: also entailed a great deal of relocation from the area 552 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 3: to be flooded in terms of like the lake that's 553 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 3: going to build up, but also the river itself. And 554 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 3: this also included something called White Crane Ridge. It's an 555 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 3: archaeological site. The inscriptions here date back to the Tung 556 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 3: dynasty and provide detailed water level records on the Yangzi River, 557 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 3: some I think one two hundred years worth of data. 558 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: They've done. What I was reading some of the carvings 559 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 3: were relocated, but others remain in a special underwater museum 560 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 3: constructed prior to the flooding. So you apparently this is 561 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 3: underneath the river, so you apparently take an escalator down 562 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 3: from a facility by the riverbank through some tunnels to 563 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 3: reach the museum. WHOA Another example from China that I 564 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 3: ran across is Lion City or Hieching in eastern China. 565 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 3: It's an example of an Eastern Han dynasty city that 566 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 3: is now under the waters of a man made lake. 567 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 3: This is Thousand Island Lake. This was flooded in the 568 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: mid twentieth century as well, when most of these projects 569 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 3: are taking place around the world, and it has apparently 570 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 3: become a tourism destination, at least for very experienced divers. 571 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 3: I read that it's not really the kind of thing 572 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 3: that casual divers are going down for, but experienced divers 573 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 3: have sought this out, and you can find some images 574 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 3: online of various sort of you know, haunting underwater remnants 575 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 3: of this place. 576 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: As a creature of East Tennessee, I grew up with 577 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: a lot of consciousness of the idea of lands flooded 578 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: by the creation of dams, specifically with the TVA hydro Electric. 579 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, the Tennessee Valley Authority, right, Yeah, things like Kentucky Lake, 580 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 3: there are always a lot of you know, these are 581 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 3: anytime you have a big lake like this, there's gonna 582 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 3: be some sort of relocation effort that has to take place. 583 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 3: And I feel like inevitably you're gonna have some things 584 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 3: left behind beneath the water, and on top of what's 585 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 3: actually underneath the water, you're gonna have stories about what 586 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 3: maybe underneath the water, you know, tales of lost towns 587 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 3: and so forth. 588 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: I think I used to have dreams when I was 589 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: little of finding houses submerged underneath the lake. 590 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And this sort of thing has been explored 591 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 3: in media. He pops up in the Coen Brothers or 592 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 3: brother Where art thou So? Yeah, And I think ultimately, 593 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 3: wherever you're listening to this show, you probably don't have 594 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 3: to go too far to find an example of some 595 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 3: sort of an artificial lake, and there may be stories 596 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 3: about like the impact of creating that lake. 597 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: Of course you kind of alluded to this earlier, but 598 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about the flooding of these 599 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: river valleys by the creation of dams. Is that often 600 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: one of the purposes of it is to prevent uncontrolled flooding. 601 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: I know this is it's fundamentally changed what the Nile 602 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: River valley is that they put all these dams in 603 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: because there used to be, you know, this uncontrolled seasonal 604 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: flooding of the Nile that was just part of life 605 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: in Egypt. And now that in some ways the water 606 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: level of the Nile has been to some degree broad 607 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: under human control. 608 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you see this sort of thing all over. 609 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 3: I have to say, though I know I wasn't familiar 610 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 3: with this example till I started doing research here. There's 611 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 3: perhaps fewer examples, few examples that are as stunning as this. 612 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,720 Speaker 3: But there's a town in northern Italy, or a village 613 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 3: in northern Italy by the name of Kuran, and it's 614 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 3: apparently pretty famous for there a lot of images of this, 615 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 3: but I wasn't familiar with it. But this is another 616 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 3: case where they had to relocate the town to a 617 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 3: higher elevation as the original site was flooded in nineteen fifty. 618 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,720 Speaker 3: So most of the city was abandoned and demoed first, 619 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 3: except for a lone fourteenth century church and its Bell Tower. 620 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 3: The Bell Tower still sticks out of the water in 621 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,879 Speaker 3: rather surrealistic fashion. You'll find images of it where it's 622 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 3: just like, oh, here's the mountains, there's a lake, and 623 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 3: here is a bell tower sticking out of it. I mean, 624 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 3: some of these images don't even look real. It looks 625 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 3: like some sort of obvious photoshop, But these are legitimate. 626 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: There are other images of the lake frozen over and 627 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 3: here is the Bell Tower emerging from the ice. Sometimes 628 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 3: you see images where people have ventured out onto the 629 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 3: ice close to it. 630 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: In some of the pictures. I just looked up pictures 631 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: of it, and in a lot of them, there seems 632 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: to be a gradient on the tower as it sticks up, 633 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: like the stone is a little paler for most of 634 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: the way up, and then there will be a lower 635 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: area where the stone is darker. And I don't know 636 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: if this is the reason, but I wonder if that's 637 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's literally just from the water level going 638 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: up and down, and so you can see where the 639 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: water has been on the on the height of the stone. 640 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe that is the case. I've read that 641 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 3: during the spring, when the water is at its lowest, 642 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 3: you can apparently see more of the ruins. But yeah, 643 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 3: I encourage everyone to look up image of this because 644 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 3: it's pretty impressive and you can't have something in like 645 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 3: this in the world, of course without it inspiring some 646 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 3: level of superstition and in fiction. And sure enough, there 647 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 3: is an Italian supernatural TV drama about this town, or 648 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 3: at least I don't know if it's about the set 649 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 3: in the town and invokes the idea of the town. 650 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 3: It is called Kuron. It's apparently I think it's on Netflix. 651 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's like, if that's in the States, 652 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 3: or if that's just in Italy or other international markets. 653 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 3: But c r o in if anyone out there has 654 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 3: seen it, do write in and let us know. I'm 655 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 3: wondering how they I mean, there's so many directions you 656 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 3: can go in. You're talking about an abandoned underwater church 657 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 3: like that. 658 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: That's perfect well, not to spoil the fund, but to 659 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: be clear, I think they removed the church. It's just 660 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: the tower that's there, right, or at least in the 661 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: pictures I've seen. 662 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 3: I'm uncertain about that. There may be some ruins down there, 663 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 3: But then again, if you're if you're making a supernatural drama, 664 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 3: TV show. Why not have the church down there? You 665 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 3: can have whatever you like down there. Merphult going to church, ghosts, raiths, 666 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 3: I don't know, there's so many directions. 667 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: Oh, it's like the pious undead that we talked about. 668 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: Was it last year or the year before? All the 669 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: revenants are going to church? 670 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and there. This is like a rich folkloric 671 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 3: region of Europe too that we're talking about. So there's 672 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 3: so many ideas you could pull in, you know, ideas 673 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 3: that predate the creation of man made lakes for sure. 674 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 3: I also want to point now worth looking up or 675 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 3: images of the Quran coat of arms, because I'm not 676 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 3: sure on the exact history of this, like when they 677 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,959 Speaker 3: changed it or adapted it. But the coat of arms 678 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 3: depicts a tower, the Bell Tower, emerging from the water, 679 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 3: so pretty cool. If you have visited this location, right 680 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 3: in and let us know, because I'd love to hear 681 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 3: your first person account of this haunting bell tower. All right, 682 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 3: we're going to go ahead and leave it there, but yeah, 683 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 3: go ahead and write in if you have any thoughts 684 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 3: on anything we've discussed so far in this series. Just 685 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 3: to remind you that stuff to blow your mind is 686 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 3: primarily a science podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 687 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 3: listener mail on Mondays, usually an artifact or monster fact 688 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 3: episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we set aside most 689 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 3: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on 690 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 3: Weird House Cinema. If you use social media, you can 691 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 3: follow us at any of your favorite social media sites, 692 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 3: I think, unless we're not on that site, but we're 693 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 3: on a few of them, so you know, to have 694 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 3: a look around, maybe you can find us. If you're 695 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 3: on Instagram, you can find us at stbym Podcast. 696 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: Follow us on MySpace. Huge thanks as always to our 697 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If you would like to 698 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 699 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 700 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at 701 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 702 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 703 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 2: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 704 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listen to your favorite shows.