1
00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,680
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

2
00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,320
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

3
00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,600
Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

4
00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,719
Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

5
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720
Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

6
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,239
Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

7
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279
Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

8
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,040
Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

9
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,400
Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show. People

10
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,759
Speaker 3: should know that the researchers get being clear and clear

11
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,000
Speaker 3: every day. One in three people who used there at

12
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,600
Speaker 3: Wan in the last year will be a bigtive. We

13
00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:33,519
Speaker 3: are unwittingly or unwittingly creating these massive companies, big tobacco's

14
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,200
Speaker 3: investment billions. We have no history of regulating these items

15
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:38,840
Speaker 3: as well. I think we're going to have to learn

16
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 3: a hard way like we did tobacco in It may

17
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,720
Speaker 3: not be illegal again, but there's going to be a

18
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,160
Speaker 3: cultural renaissance at some point.

19
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,880
Speaker 4: It works for chronic pain and it works for PTSD.

20
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 4: Should we just tell those people you don't have access

21
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,280
Speaker 4: to the most effective medicine. It's way better than benzos

22
00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,080
Speaker 4: and opiates, which is currently what the VA is prescribing.

23
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,520
Speaker 4: Both of those are far more addictive than cannabis. Withdrawal

24
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,360
Speaker 4: from Benzo's can actually, if not done in a medical environment,

25
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 4: can actually kill you. If it's medicine, which I do

26
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,039
Speaker 4: believe it is, it should be treated as such.

27
00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 3: This is a very strong industry who relies on profit

28
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 3: and heavy use. That's how they make their money. They

29
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 3: don't want to acknowledge the word you do, and I'd

30
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 3: love you for it, but they know and they're sadly

31
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,360
Speaker 3: holding the key to this. I have lots of problems

32
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:19,280
Speaker 3: with lots of industry.

33
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,760
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean I think their product should be banned.

34
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: Welcome to counterpoints. So last week, the administration made another

35
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,480
Speaker 1: move towards rescheduling marijuana from Schedule one, which is the

36
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 1: most restrictive place you can have a drug, which means

37
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,480
Speaker 1: it has no medical value, high abuse of potential, down

38
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 1: to Schedule three, which made a lot of people happy,

39
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people upset, and then a lot of

40
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,520
Speaker 1: people upset from both directions. And it opens up interesting

41
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 1: questions about ongoing marijuana policy and also drug policy more general.

42
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 1: So that you know that's what we're going to be

43
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,160
Speaker 1: talking about today. With a couple of our couple of

44
00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,720
Speaker 1: our guests, just curious before we start, where do you

45
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 1: where do you? Where do you come down on the whole,

46
00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: Just so people understand as we're moderating, where you come

47
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,320
Speaker 1: down on like the drug policy in marijuana policy debate.

48
00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,560
Speaker 5: You know, Actually, one of the reasons that I'm excited

49
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 5: for this debate is because I'm sort of have always

50
00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 5: been very agnostic about well maybe ambivalent is a better word.

51
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,600
Speaker 5: I'm genuinely persuaded by arguments that I hear from the

52
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,280
Speaker 5: Sager side shout out to anti weedsar of breaking points

53
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,919
Speaker 5: Sager and Jetty, but then also very persuaded by the

54
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,080
Speaker 5: like legalization arguments, especially you know, immigration is an area

55
00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 5: that I care about a lot, and cartel violence and

56
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 5: all of that. So I'm excited to hash some of

57
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,440
Speaker 5: these conversations out.

58
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and none of this is easy, but we're lucky

59
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 1: today we have two of the leading figures in this

60
00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 1: in this field who are on opposite sides that we

61
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,400
Speaker 1: might might find out they agree on a little bit

62
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 1: more than we think. Let's let's bring them in now

63
00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,920
Speaker 1: so on the kind of I guess anti side, and

64
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,520
Speaker 1: we'll get each to kind of define where they are

65
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,240
Speaker 1: on the spectrum would be Kevin Sabot, who is the

66
00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 1: author of the twenty twenty one book Smoke Screen What

67
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,360
Speaker 1: the Marijuana Industry Doesn't Want You to Know. He's also

68
00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,560
Speaker 1: the co founder of Smart Approaches to Marijuana WHI, which

69
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 1: he founded with Patrick Kennedy and also David from former

70
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 1: Obama administration official. I think I've been interacting with Kevin

71
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,919
Speaker 1: since the Obama administration. We're going going way back here, John,

72
00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,360
Speaker 1: and then we're also joined here by John lu Becky,

73
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 1: who many of you may know as a veteran who

74
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 1: has been at the forefront of lobbying around drug policy

75
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 1: and in particular psychedelic policy as it relates to PTSD

76
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,640
Speaker 1: for veterans. Becky, John, what's what's the name of your

77
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 1: strategic consulting firm, John Lubecky Strategies. I believe it is.

78
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 3: Lou Becky's strategic direction, the Becky Strategic Directions.

79
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,560
Speaker 1: And so what I meant by UH to define where

80
00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 1: we are on the spectrum, you could you could if

81
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 1: if if you think of the spectrum as, on the

82
00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: one hand, prohibition, complete and total prohibition of all you know,

83
00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:22,320
Speaker 1: recreational substances. UH, including prohibition for their medical purposes. That's

84
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,080
Speaker 1: one end of the spectrum. Then the other would be

85
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,919
Speaker 1: no laws whatsoever. That it's just just be complete, you know,

86
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,560
Speaker 1: libertarian fever dream. Where would you guys position yourself on

87
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,120
Speaker 1: those spectrums that as the viewers kind of hear the

88
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,120
Speaker 1: arguments that you're making, will understand kind of where where

89
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: you're coming from. And Kevin, you can if you want

90
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:41,840
Speaker 1: to go.

91
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 3: First, sure, sure, thanks for having me. I'm excited to

92
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,560
Speaker 3: have this conversation to meet you too. Em really wonderful. Uh,

93
00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,720
Speaker 3: you know where I come out is probably somewhere in

94
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 3: the middle of that spectrum. Look, I don't think people

95
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,760
Speaker 3: should go to prison or be given criminal records for

96
00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,160
Speaker 3: you know, possessing or using marijuana. Who we're adults. I

97
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 3: also think we're greatly underestimating both the harm of today's

98
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,799
Speaker 3: hypoe in marijuana and I'll be probably a broken record

99
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,279
Speaker 3: about that today, but also underestimating the harms of American

100
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 3: style legalization. We have never legalized something in for the

101
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,280
Speaker 3: force of public health or public good in a way

102
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,839
Speaker 3: that is regulated in any kind of way that advances

103
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 3: public health over private profit. And what we see it

104
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,480
Speaker 3: right now with legalization is the unveiling of really a

105
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,360
Speaker 3: new big tobacco something that you know, if you're under

106
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 3: thirty five, you probably don't even know what that is.

107
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,479
Speaker 3: But what it is is was one hundred years of

108
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 3: lies and deceit by the most powerful industry in the

109
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,760
Speaker 3: country that owned every politician on both sides of the aisle.

110
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,760
Speaker 3: Every A list actor was in every movie pushing this

111
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 3: idea that tobacco was relatively harmless, that it was medicinal,

112
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 3: and also they also said it was medical and that

113
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,160
Speaker 3: your it was about adults right to use, and we're

114
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,240
Speaker 3: seeing those same arguments. So I don't want to see

115
00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:58,919
Speaker 3: people in prison, but I don't think we should be

116
00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,560
Speaker 3: normalizing commercial You want to grow a little bit on

117
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,360
Speaker 3: your own, you know, find you want to use it,

118
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 3: not in an issue, although at least you should be

119
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,360
Speaker 3: educated on what it could do to you at the

120
00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 3: very least. But that is your choice. But it stops

121
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,400
Speaker 3: being your choice the minute you walk out of your

122
00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,000
Speaker 3: house and get into your car, take care of your kids,

123
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,280
Speaker 3: teach my kids, become a doctor, a pilot, et cetera.

124
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,280
Speaker 3: Those things, of course and affect others. So I think

125
00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 3: it's somewhere in the middle. But I do think that

126
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,280
Speaker 3: our current kind of societal shift towards acceptance is a mistake,

127
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 3: and I think it's one will come to regret, just

128
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,880
Speaker 3: like we do how we felt about tobacco in nineteen

129
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:33,400
Speaker 3: fifty five.

130
00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,040
Speaker 1: And so, John, where would you put yourself on that spectrum?

131
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,160
Speaker 4: Well, interestingly enough is I'm most known for working on psychaelics.

132
00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 4: I actually started working on medical cannabis in South Carolina

133
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,279
Speaker 4: in twenty thirteen because I had used cannabis to abate

134
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,840
Speaker 4: suicidal ideation for about five years and then couldn't because

135
00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 4: I moved to a state where it was illegal. So

136
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,159
Speaker 4: I've been working on cannabis for well over a decade.

137
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 4: Now I am in the middle. My primary issue is

138
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 4: the government is the one that messes up by preventing

139
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 4: research and actual medical uses in a medical setting through

140
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,840
Speaker 4: a medical context, like we do any other prescription drug.

141
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 3: And I think one of the biggest problems.

142
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 4: Is you have people who object to legalization objecting to

143
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 4: medical use and conflating those two, and the people who

144
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,239
Speaker 4: want to legalize also conflate those two, and they're actually

145
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 4: very different arguments. You know, whether somebody needs this for

146
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 4: a genuine and proven medical need versus Hey, I want

147
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,400
Speaker 4: to go to a Phish concert and smoke a joint

148
00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 4: are two very very different things that.

149
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 5: Felt very very specific to who I was actually just

150
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,200
Speaker 5: going to ask. So Ryan wrote a book called This

151
00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 5: is Your Country on Drugs? Ryan, Now that everyone else

152
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 5: has sort of put themselves on the spectrum, where would

153
00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 5: you describe yourself?

154
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,280
Speaker 1: And I write in the book towards the end of

155
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 1: it that if you don't take regulation seriously, and if

156
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,120
Speaker 1: it's just a complete, uh, free for all, that the

157
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,680
Speaker 1: history of American drug policy shows that it is not

158
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 1: a one directional thing, that it's a pendulum that swings

159
00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: back and forth, and that if, if, if drug policy

160
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,080
Speaker 1: reform advocates are not careful, the pendulum will swing right

161
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 1: back and you'll get a reaction and a blowback. And

162
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 1: so in the pursuit of that, I think people have

163
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 1: to be more careful. And we talked on the show

164
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,880
Speaker 1: Wednesday about Portland, and Portland just had its progressive DA

165
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,319
Speaker 1: thrown out in this election. We can we can talk

166
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 1: about that later in the election, but I mean later

167
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 1: in this show. But let let's start with the the rescheduling.

168
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:48,840
Speaker 1: I would actually argue that schedule that Schedule three, which

169
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,760
Speaker 1: it was moved to, is still too restrictive for marijuana.

170
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 1: But let's Kevin, let's let's start with you. So the

171
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: DAH and you actually, I think had a scoop on

172
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 1: this that the head of the DEA did not actually

173
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,480
Speaker 1: sign off on moving marijuana from Schedule one down to

174
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 1: Schedule three. That the Department of Justice and the administration

175
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 1: did it without her signature, which is their prerogative. They

176
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,520
Speaker 1: can do it, but it's suggestive of a schism within

177
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 1: the administration over this question. So tell us a little

178
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,120
Speaker 1: bit about what you know about how that unfolded, and

179
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 1: also where you stand on this move from Schedule one

180
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: to Schedule three and what does that mean? What does

181
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 1: that mean to people who don't follow the details here.

182
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, like you said, it's never been done before.

183
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 3: So we're definitely that this is going to kind of

184
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,920
Speaker 3: be a wild ride when we learn really the details

185
00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,679
Speaker 3: of this. But yeah, I know to back up, and

186
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:40,960
Speaker 3: I think a lot of what Jonathan said I agree with,

187
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 3: by the way, about the conflation of the issues and

188
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,800
Speaker 3: medical recreational dgrim all those that have been conflated, I

189
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,720
Speaker 3: think in a way that's not productive. But to get

190
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,640
Speaker 3: to your question about scheduling, I think there's a lot

191
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 3: of misconception about what scheduling is. Scheduling is basically, it's

192
00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,400
Speaker 3: five categories that Congress in nineteen seventy came up with

193
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,120
Speaker 3: that you know, does not equate drugs, And if you're

194
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 3: in the same category, it doesn't mean you think they're

195
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 3: the same thing. And that's where the Vice President in

196
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,559
Speaker 3: her discussion was just completely off about what it really means.

197
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,880
Speaker 3: I think of the scheduling kind of like a snack

198
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,960
Speaker 3: ayle of the grocery store. You might have Aisle three

199
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,720
Speaker 3: might be called snacks, but you might have banana chips,

200
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:29,560
Speaker 3: you know, beef jerky, oreos, and fruit slices. They're all snacks, right,

201
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,680
Speaker 3: they fall under the criteria of snacks, but they're not

202
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 3: the same. So we don't treat bananas like we do

203
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,040
Speaker 3: you know, ruffles, potato chips. And that's what's often said.

204
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,360
Speaker 3: Heroin is schedule one and marijuana is two. That means

205
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 3: that we're thinking of the same. We don't treat them

206
00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,199
Speaker 3: the same. Actually, marijuana is different by statute, even regardless

207
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,520
Speaker 3: of schedule, which very few people need even know. It

208
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 3: has nothing to do with penalties, So it's not that

209
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 3: we schedule one drugs or more penalized and scheduled two.

210
00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 3: In fact, cocaine, which is a Schedule two drugs because

211
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,360
Speaker 3: it has some very limited medicinal use in surgery by doctors.

212
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,040
Speaker 3: You can't go home with it, obviously, but it's a

213
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 3: very limited use, that's Schedule two. But the penalties are

214
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,280
Speaker 3: far greater than marijuana, which is Schedule one. So first

215
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,920
Speaker 3: of all, there's a total misconception about what scheduling is

216
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,040
Speaker 3: the reason marijuana deserves to stay in the current Schedule one.

217
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,319
Speaker 3: And we can have a discussion. In fact, Jonathan and

218
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 3: I might agree that the scheduling system should be changed

219
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 3: in certain ways. We might actually come up with a

220
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,080
Speaker 3: better scheduling system than they did fifty years ago. But

221
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,000
Speaker 3: the way that it is currently now it means that

222
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,160
Speaker 3: there's no accepted medical use, which traditionally meant there isn't

223
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,360
Speaker 3: an FDA approved medication that we say is called marijuana.

224
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,559
Speaker 3: Now there are several medications based on marijuana. This is

225
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,000
Speaker 3: where it gets complicated that are not Schedule one, and

226
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,439
Speaker 3: I'm fully in favor of that research non smoked marijuana

227
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 3: components and no you know that, no problem with that,

228
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 3: and there are already drugs in three five that are

229
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 3: not Schedule one, no problem with it. But to say

230
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 3: marijuana as a whole, which means thousands of known products,

231
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,840
Speaker 3: the edibles, the ninety nine percent concentrates that are really

232
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 3: messing with people's minds, the vapes that are out there,

233
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 3: the flavors. I mean to say that all of that

234
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,680
Speaker 3: has accepted medically use, accorded to the FDA, because basically

235
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,400
Speaker 3: a lot of people use them, it has implications wavyond marijuana.

236
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 3: We're essentially saying to the pharma of the industry, forget

237
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,800
Speaker 3: about doing your research. If you run a ballid initiative

238
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 3: in enough states and make your wonder drug popular, you

239
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 3: all of a sudden have accepted medical use and you

240
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,720
Speaker 3: don't have to be Scheduled one. It really doesn't make sense.

241
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 3: The other criteria Schedule one is abuse potential. We can

242
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,240
Speaker 3: argue about abuse potential that is more subjective. Although people

243
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,560
Speaker 3: should know that the research is getting clearer and clear.

244
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,079
Speaker 3: Every day. One in three people who used marijuana in

245
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 3: the last year will be addicted. There's a lot of repit.

246
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,320
Speaker 3: But we can have an argument. Jonathan and I can

247
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,319
Speaker 3: go back and forth on abuse potential as it worth.

248
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,600
Speaker 3: But the medicinal part of this, which is one of

249
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,760
Speaker 3: the two criteria, it just doesn't meet anything other than

250
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 3: Schedule one. So this was done, I should say, I

251
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,559
Speaker 3: hate to say this, but it was done pop for

252
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 3: a political purpose. This was done to try and get

253
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 3: young voters. And it was clear in the discussion of

254
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,080
Speaker 3: the Press secretary about how this was a campaign promise.

255
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:13,839
Speaker 3: This was discussed. This is not supposed to be a

256
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,200
Speaker 3: campaign issue. This is not supposed to be a political issue.

257
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,959
Speaker 3: This is supposed to be an issue that scientists and

258
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 3: the government, who by the way, rejected rescheduling in the

259
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,880
Speaker 3: Obama administration in twenty sixteen when it would have been

260
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,840
Speaker 3: very easy to do it on his way out the door.

261
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 3: This is something that's left for scientists. It's not meant

262
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,640
Speaker 3: to be pole politicized. So, yeah, the DEA not happy,

263
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 3: not a fan. They went completely out of president. They've

264
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,719
Speaker 3: been absent from this sort of celebratory you know, hhs

265
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 3: sort of kind of tone of we're rescheduling this. That's

266
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,320
Speaker 3: because this is a political issue to get young voters.

267
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,280
Speaker 3: Will it work? That's another issue. I actually don't think

268
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,680
Speaker 3: it Will, I don't think people really paying attention to

269
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 3: this issue. I think when you rate issues among young people,

270
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,959
Speaker 3: marijuana is not even in the top ten. Didn't even

271
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,520
Speaker 3: appear in the Harvard Io People, which I know you'd

272
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,000
Speaker 3: all have talked about. So I just I think this

273
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,080
Speaker 3: was wrong on so many reasons. It doesn't mean I

274
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,680
Speaker 3: want to put people in prison, it doesn't mean I

275
00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,640
Speaker 3: want to think it's like heroin, just on technical purposes.

276
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I was going to ask John, I think

277
00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,400
Speaker 5: it's really important that we do get to the debate

278
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,600
Speaker 5: that you mentioned on abuse potential. It's a huge component

279
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,880
Speaker 5: of this and it's a great sort of area of contrast.

280
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,400
Speaker 5: But John, before we get to that, zeroing in on

281
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:29,160
Speaker 5: that point about whether it's overly broad to just use marijuana,

282
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,400
Speaker 5: which then would sweep in vaped and all of these

283
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 5: other marijuana products that are sort of across the board

284
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 5: at this point is do you agree with that? Do

285
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 5: you think that it's overly broad or are you more

286
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 5: with Ryan that this didn't even go far enough.

287
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 4: Well, first, you know, as Kevin said, there's not a

288
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,400
Speaker 4: lot of research on this, in part because FDA and

289
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 4: the US government blocked that research. You know, part of

290
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 4: the reason why, for example, MDMA and psilocybin will likely

291
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,520
Speaker 4: be FDA approved far before cannabis is because they were

292
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,080
Speaker 4: allowed to actually do the research, and when the government's

293
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 4: the one blocking the research a lot of the route.

294
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,560
Speaker 4: There has been an extensive amount of research done a

295
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,840
Speaker 4: at state universities and within states that do show a

296
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,000
Speaker 4: lot of safety, that do show efficacy for certain things.

297
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,280
Speaker 4: I don't agree that cannabis is some cure all that

298
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 4: that cures everything from cancer to the common coal. But

299
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,000
Speaker 4: and I also agree if we're talking medicine, smoking is

300
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,800
Speaker 4: off the table. You don't smoke medicine, plain and simple.

301
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,680
Speaker 4: As far as edibles and bapes and things like that,

302
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 4: I actually think there should be a lot of different

303
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,440
Speaker 4: delivery methods. One of the biggest problems that that dcrim

304
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 4: and legalization has brought is a complete lack of quality control.

305
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,440
Speaker 4: And if somebody is using this as medicine, it needs,

306
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,960
Speaker 4: you know, each gummy, for example, needs to have the

307
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,520
Speaker 4: same dosage which is on the label and on bottle,

308
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 4: especially if we're talking medicine, and if we're talking scheduling,

309
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 4: Schedule three is still a medicine, and you know, there

310
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 4: have been FDA trials that showed safety, it did not

311
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 4: show efficacy, in part because it was night have provided cannabis.

312
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,000
Speaker 4: I do think we should look at efficacy using different things.

313
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,360
Speaker 4: There's lots of people who have a problem with vaping

314
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,640
Speaker 4: because they have lung issues, in which case a gummy

315
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 4: might be easier.

316
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 1: Kevin, can you respond? Can you respond to that one?

317
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 1: The one point there that there isn't a lot of research,

318
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 1: So you know, you have argued for policies over your

319
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 1: career that have prevented that research from happening. So it

320
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 1: seems unfair to then say, well, we don't have enough

321
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 1: research at this point, so we can't move. It feels

322
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 1: like it's just prohibition kind of covered in a more

323
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 1: sympathetic glass, given that the population is now so much

324
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,760
Speaker 1: more supportive of marijuana reform.

325
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,360
Speaker 3: But I think there's a few big myths in this,

326
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 3: in this overall discussion on marijuana in the country. One

327
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,280
Speaker 3: of them is that they are people in prison for

328
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,680
Speaker 3: low level marijuana use and that our prisons are full

329
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 3: of them. That's probably the biggest one. The other one

330
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 3: is that you know, we'll get rid of the cartels

331
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 3: and the underground market if we legalize that clearly has

332
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,400
Speaker 3: not been probably another but the other myth I would

333
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 3: say is that we don't that research, that we don't

334
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 3: have the research on marijuana. That is a huge myth.

335
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,639
Speaker 3: We have over twenty thousand to thirty thousand peer reviewed

336
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,400
Speaker 3: studies over the last twenty or thirty years, way more

337
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 3: than psilocybin and MDMA. By the way, the reason psilocybin

338
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 3: and MDM aray may get FDA approvals soon. And by

339
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 3: the way, I don't oppose that because they've gone through

340
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,400
Speaker 3: the normal method of medication development with by the way,

341
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 3: far fewer research, but they've done it in a very

342
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 3: controlled way. You could argue, you know, there's still some

343
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 3: issues there, and that's for another debate maybe, but they've

344
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,920
Speaker 3: at least followed that plan. Although some states have voted

345
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 3: on it. We shouldn't be voting on any medicine. I

346
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 3: don't care what it is, and I don't and I

347
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,439
Speaker 3: don't really buy the argument that we have to do

348
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,680
Speaker 3: that because the government won't do research. There always could

349
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 3: be more research, and actually, Ryan I have We've said

350
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 3: eight or ten years ago we had a plan in Congress.

351
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,399
Speaker 3: Some of it's already been passed believe it or not.

352
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,199
Speaker 3: To increase research. I want more research. I have a

353
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,159
Speaker 3: PhD in this. We don't have enough research when it

354
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 3: comes to concentrates, the ninety nine concentrates that are causing

355
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 3: you know, five fold increases in psychosis, we don't have

356
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,439
Speaker 3: enough research on that. We love more research. We have

357
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,879
Speaker 3: research on fifteen PERCENTHD. We need ninety percent. There's a

358
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,159
Speaker 3: lot more we should do research on. But this idea

359
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 3: that it sort of hasn't been research because it's illegal.

360
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just isn't wrong. I mean we've we

361
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:40,959
Speaker 3: inherent one is illegal. We have a lot of research

362
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,320
Speaker 3: on it. LSD, you know, Schedule one. We have research

363
00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,760
Speaker 3: on it. We researched it. Can we research it better?

364
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 3: Are there easier, less, less burthen the research that's being blocked, Yes, absolutely.

365
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 3: Here's the thing.

366
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 4: The research that's being blocked that you've supported blocking, that's

367
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,000
Speaker 4: the party one any research. The research that is being

368
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 4: blocked is the gold standard placebo controlled clinical research trials.

369
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,199
Speaker 3: I don't want to block that approval. Oh let me

370
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 3: tell you. I'm telling you right now, I will not

371
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 3: block up the hard thing about placebo. Of course, what

372
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 3: the government did usually know you're high. Well again you

373
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 3: look at the National Academy of Science. It's again people

374
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,199
Speaker 3: should just you don't take anybody to work for it.

375
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 3: You can decide what research is for yourself. Maybe we

376
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 3: have different definitions. But look at the National Academy of

377
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 3: Sciences twenty seventeen. They're redoing it right now, will be

378
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 3: out probably in the next year or two. But that

379
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,399
Speaker 3: that has like twenty thousand irre reviewed studies. Some of

380
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 3: them do have the Placino's.

381
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 4: Harder dr thing because how many of those studies zero

382
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 4: controlled human clinical trials.

383
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 3: There are some that are in there, and they were

384
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 3: they didn't do well.

385
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,239
Speaker 4: I mean you he was saying twenty one thousand, there

386
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 4: has only been one placebo control clinical trial ever approved

387
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,360
Speaker 4: by the FDA.

388
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,480
Speaker 1: And was that done? With the dirt weed they grow

389
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 1: down in Mississippi, the govern that the government grows correct,

390
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: and here's people John explain, explain that for people who

391
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 1: are surprised the government grows weeds.

392
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 3: Well, so this actually did change a few years ago.

393
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,159
Speaker 4: The government finally ended the night of monopoly and started

394
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 4: issuing licenses to grow.

395
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 3: Actually argue for that change. By the way, we wanted

396
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 3: that change we're with you on that. Yeah good, that's

397
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 3: not me like we're together on that bad.

398
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 4: And actually, contrary to what's been reported pretty much everywhere,

399
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 4: I was actually contracted with maps to end the night

400
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 4: of monopoly. So that's primarily what I focused on because

401
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 4: I do believe in placebo control trials. But you can't say, hey,

402
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 4: the government funded twenty one thousand trials with an end

403
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 4: state goal of proving that weed was bad. Is you

404
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,959
Speaker 4: know when you're looking at placebo could the gold standard

405
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 4: placebo controls human clinical trials for specific condition is what's needed,

406
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 4: And there's only been one in the whole United States

407
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 4: because they have done it in places like Israel and

408
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 4: other places that have shown that have shown efficacy, but

409
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,520
Speaker 4: those aren't accepted in the US, and the NIA monopoly

410
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 4: specifically prevented anybody from using any sort of decent cannabis.

411
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 4: It is actually so horrible that there were people on

412
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,640
Speaker 4: the place ebo who thought they were getting the actual thing.

413
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 4: So the idea that well, you just you know you're

414
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 4: high actually is disproven by the only phase.

415
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 3: Two placebo controlled trial.

416
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 4: And when you block those things, but you have lots

417
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 4: of foudal evidence, like no I don't think veterans should

418
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 4: be smoking weed, but I do think and you and

419
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 4: I both know that veterans were used to approve medical

420
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 4: in the States and improve legalization, and they still don't

421
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 4: have access to it at the VA because currently the

422
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 4: FDA is blocking three VA facilities from doing cannabis research.

423
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 5: This time, well, I was saying, John, can I before

424
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 5: we move on, can we just get you to zero

425
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 5: in on the Schedule three decision? Do you what is

426
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 5: your Do you support.

427
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: That or not?

428
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 3: Oh? No, I absolutely do.

429
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 5: You don't worry about bringing all the other products in.

430
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 4: No, not at all, Because Schedule three specifically doesn't legalize

431
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 4: anything sold in the States. It only permits FDA proved drugs.

432
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 4: What it does do is remove a whole long list

433
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 4: of barriers to be able to conduct the research that

434
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 4: are in place for Schedule one. Because so in order

435
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 4: to research Schedule one you have to get a special

436
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 4: license from Schedule one, which is very difficult and very

437
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 4: expensive to get. You can get a Schedule two license,

438
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 4: which is a little less, and then getting a license

439
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 4: to do research with a Schedule three compound you file

440
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 4: with the DNA. It's fairly easy. It's not as expensive.

441
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 4: So this should allow all these different things. You want

442
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 4: your gummy to be FDA approved, you want your your

443
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 4: ninety percent, you know, a wax or whatever approved, amazing,

444
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 4: put it through FDA trials, have it FDA approved. And

445
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 4: the move to Schedule three makes that a lot easier because,

446
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 4: as Kevin said.

447
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 3: There is a ton of research.

448
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 4: We know all all the hazards, we know some of

449
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 4: the benefits, so we can we don't need to do

450
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 4: a phase one trial to see if Peter will die

451
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 4: if they smoke marijuana.

452
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 3: Let me just comment on that real quick. I would

453
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 3: love nothing more than one of the things from Schedule

454
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: three to happen. By the way, it's not a foregone conclusion.

455
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 3: It will be scheduled three. There's going to be low

456
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 3: so that's agree it's happening. But whatever, Yeah, let's just

457
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 3: say it is. I would like nothing more than Jonathan

458
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 3: to be right on the research side, and I have

459
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 3: research for friends that are totally anti cannabis from the

460
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 3: legalization perspective who want to do more research and are like,

461
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 3: maybe this will help. I'm very skeptical actually, and I

462
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 3: will time will tell that this is going to be

463
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 3: something that ushers in some new era of Maririjuana research,

464
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 3: mainly because the major barrier for marijuana research is money.

465
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 3: It's funding, and interestingly, pharma has been only somewhat interested.

466
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 3: They don't really see marijuana as a profitable kind of medication.

467
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 3: Some have, but they've boy I mean GW Pharma, Jazz Pharma,

468
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 3: I know Jonathan knows a lot about them. I mean they,

469
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 3: I mean, God knows how much money they've spent for

470
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: almost for nothing. That they have a preparation of proven

471
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 3: fifty countries, they cannot get it approoved here called satavex,

472
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 3: half CBD, have THHC for certain pain. It's gone nowhere here.

473
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: It's a very difficult road, but it's going to be

474
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 3: funding more than these barriers. What we do know definitely

475
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 3: will happen, which I should have mentioned at first with

476
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: Schedule three, is that marijuana companies get tax breaks that

477
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 3: they didn't get before. And that is something that really

478
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 3: repulses me. The fact that you have these big marijuana

479
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 3: companies who can now write off advertising expenses as if

480
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 3: they need more good advertising, they could write off other

481
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: ordinary business expenses in their tax returns. Many people might

482
00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 3: not know are still what do you they're not the right. No, no, no,

483
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: but no, no, this isn't This isn't a part of hold on,

484
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 3: hold on, let me fish. This isn't a dispute. I mean,

485
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 3: I disagree with people like who disagree with me on

486
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: this on every other issue, but they acknowledge this, which

487
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 3: is the two ade tax exception means that if you're

488
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: a company dealing with a Schedule one or two drug,

489
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 3: you cannot write off ordinary tax ordinary business expenses on

490
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 3: their taxes because you are now scheduled three. This is

491
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: not a like, this isn't really something the debate about.

492
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 3: If this is, if it's Schedule three, they can, they

493
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 3: can write off expenses. And for me, that that worries

494
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 3: me because I don't want pod companies to be more

495
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 3: the big ones to be more profitable than they already are.

496
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 3: That really worries me.

497
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 4: You are correct, however, they and they can if they

498
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 4: are manufacturing it according to federal law, and you can't

499
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 4: just make you can't make ketamine in your basement sell

500
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: it on the street. And of course because yeah, so

501
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 4: if they're not selling FDA drugs, so you're right, they're.

502
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 3: No, well they need the law, they won't Yeah, I

503
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 3: wish they would. And I went up to DA to

504
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 3: enforce the law to marijuana. It's been illegal and still illegal,

505
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 3: and they're not enforcing any law when it comes to it.

506
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 3: So I would love for them to enforce the law.

507
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to happen. This is going

508
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: to usher in even bigger companies. You're right. The guy

509
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 3: that grows a little weed and gets into his neighbors,

510
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: he's not going to deduct ex expenses. I'm talking about

511
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: the you know, huge guys that are that are competing

512
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: in these states.

513
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: I mean, Kevin, shouldn't shouldn't a business be able to

514
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: write off expenses? I mean, these are these are like,

515
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: these are now businesses. They've got storefronts, they've got employees.

516
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 3: They're totally illegal. Legalize them first, go through Congress and

517
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 3: legalize them. But they can't. And so and you just

518
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 3: destroyed your own point. You can't.

519
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 4: Illegal companies cannot write off on their their expenses on

520
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 4: on their taxes.

521
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, their businesses that do a legal business.

522
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 4: Insaye, for example, California to a state that doesn't mean

523
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 4: that their business is federally legal. You you traditional, Yeah,

524
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, you're right.

525
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: Jonathan, I commend your integrity here to to make that distinction,

526
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: which very few people do. I'm serious, I'm not facetious.

527
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: But I can tell you these companies who are totally,

528
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: as you're saying, and I'm saying, are illegal companies because

529
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: they're felons. I mean they're felons. They're they're literally felons

530
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 3: because they're selling any under and a controlled substance. It

531
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 3: doesn't matter what schedule. They're selling an illegal, illegal drug.

532
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: But they have already said that they are cheering this

533
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 3: so they can deduct expenses and become more profitable. That's

534
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: why the stock exchange, which is there's a little stock symbol,

535
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: has skyrocketed since this discussion of rescheduling, and people on

536
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 3: these petty stocks are making actually a decent amount of

537
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 3: money right now because there's this thought that this will

538
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 3: be able to happen. I hope to god you're right

539
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 3: about both research and I hope you're right about they're

540
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: not going to be deducting spensis. That's absolutely the scenario.

541
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: But I absolutely believe.

542
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 4: That companies will will try to deduct things they are

543
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 4: legually not permitted to. I mean, every company in the

544
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 4: United States does that. That doesn't mean that the ir

545
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 4: res can't go.

546
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 5: Well.

547
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 4: Honestly, it's far easier in this case than in a

548
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 4: case of regular corporations selling widgets that's writing off you know,

549
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 4: an apartment they can't or something like that.

550
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 5: I think the crux of this dispute is a dispute

551
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 5: over optimism, or about whether this optimism is well placed,

552
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 5: or you know, maybe it should be taken down a

553
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 5: couple of notches about the potential of marijuana. And on that, John,

554
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 5: I wanted to ask you if you share Kevin's concern

555
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 5: about big marijuana becoming the new big tobacco, because when

556
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 5: we're talking about writing off expenses which helps them sort

557
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 5: of grow now illegal businesses into behemoths. I think I

558
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 5: won't put words in Kevin's mouth because I'll give him

559
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 5: a chance to talk about this too. But you can

560
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 5: create predatory industries, obviously when you're dealing with something like this.

561
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 5: So do you share the concern that this rapid sort

562
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 5: of growth is going to create predatory behemoths in the

563
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 5: way that we saw happen with big tobacco.

564
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 4: Oh, I absolutely think it can. I also think that

565
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 4: there are ways to very much mitigate that. Quality control

566
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 4: is one of the biggest ones. But also again, Schedule

567
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 4: three isn't necessarily about legalizations.

568
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: Schedule three is about.

569
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 4: Medical benefit and one of my primary concerns is ensuring

570
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 4: that the veterans who have been fighting for this and

571
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 4: need this for paying PTSD and other issues where there's

572
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 4: extensive evidence have access to it through the VA, which

573
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 4: everyone seems to be ignoring.

574
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 5: And can you tell us more about your experience working

575
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 5: with veterans in how mariwa It has been something that

576
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 5: in your experience you've watched them respond to it positively?

577
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely.

578
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 4: I can't tell you how many veterans that were actively

579
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: suicidal who I have sat with, who smoked to joint

580
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 4: and calmed down and we were able.

581
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: To get them the help that they needed.

582
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 4: I actually also think it's it's probably not good for

583
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 4: long term, but also it's way better than benzos and opiates,

584
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 4: which is currently what the VA is prescribing.

585
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: And so you know both and actually both of those

586
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: are far more.

587
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 4: Addictive than cannabis, and the withdrawal withdrawal from benzo's can actually,

588
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 4: if not done in a medical environment, can actually kill you.

589
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: That is not the case with cannabis. And again, I

590
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 4: don't think anybody should smoke it as a medicine. For me,

591
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 4: that is completely off the table. You know, veterans have

592
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 4: enough lung damage from burn pits. They don't need to

593
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 4: be smoking wheed. But also, you know, if this was

594
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 4: treated as actual medicine and it wasn't about the culture,

595
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 4: and it wasn't about legalization, it wasn't about all of this,

596
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 4: it would have already been approved if the government had

597
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 4: in a block. And now we're in a position where

598
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 4: we're at where we're at, and we need to deal

599
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: with it d prim letting you know, if you think

600
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 4: the guy who's who's growing in his basement, you know,

601
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: and giving it to his neighbors, isn't going to sell it,

602
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: you're wrong.

603
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: He is. And so do you think that person should

604
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 3: go to jail? No?

605
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 4: But you you know this is where I would rather

606
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 4: because here's the thing.

607
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: I'll be completely honest. I kill rosemary plants.

608
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 4: I tried to grow herbs and everything, and I have

609
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 4: a complete black thump. I could not grow marijuana if

610
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 4: my life depended on it. So I'm going to find

611
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 4: it from someone else. So you know, if if it's medicine,

612
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 4: which I do believe it is. It should be treated

613
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 4: as such. We can have a further conversation with legalization.

614
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 4: But one of the things that the bacco industry had

615
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 4: that Big Cannabis doesn't is twenty one thousand peer reviewed

616
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 4: studies that Kevin had brought up earlier, you know, showing

617
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 4: what some of those dangers are. You know, one of

618
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 4: the biggest mistakes I think in cannabis, and this is

619
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 4: something me and Kevin will be one thousand percent in

620
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 4: agreement on.

621
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: I don't think anybody should get.

622
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 4: Behind the wheel of a vehicle under the influence of

623
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 4: any substance marijuana, alcohol, benzos, opiates. And insistence on we

624
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 4: can do what we want, we can smoke cannabis where

625
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 4: we want, we can do anything is.

626
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 3: Part of the problem.

627
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 4: The concept that medical was originally pitched and implemented as

628
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 4: here's a card. You can now smoke as much as

629
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 4: you want, wherever you want, whenever you want. That's not medicine,

630
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 4: and me and Kevin will likely very much agree on that,

631
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean it can't be just because you know,

632
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 4: you know, fentanyl is highly dangerous, but it can be

633
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 4: safely used in a medical environment.

634
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead, Kevin.

635
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to respond to something.

636
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean there's a couple of things. There

637
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: are one thing. Actually, I am struck again, I really

638
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: in a good way, John, that you're you know, acknowledging

639
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: that probably marijuana on the long term is not the

640
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 3: best thing for a veteran or somebody with PTSD to

641
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: smoke smoke marijuana in a long term. In fact, the

642
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: studies that we have, and as you know, the review

643
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 3: out of Yale and many others, show that when it

644
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 3: comes to PTSD symptoms, I mean, marijuana, because of its

645
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 3: ability to connection with psychosis, it'sophrenia, depression, anxiety, it exacerbates

646
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 3: these symptoms in the medium to long term. It doesn't

647
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 3: mean that in the short term someone might not feel

648
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: better at that time while they're high, at that moment

649
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 3: that you're sitting down with them smoking a joint. But

650
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 3: in terms of a long term kind of solution for

651
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: these big, big issues that we're dealing with with our veterans,

652
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: it sounded like you somewhat acknowledge actually what I was

653
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: going to say there, which is I would really exercise

654
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: a lot of caution. I think we can do much

655
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: better than Benzo's and I agree with you on that too,

656
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 3: and these other very harmful drugs. It speaks to, really, frankly,

657
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 3: the lack of care we've given two veterans four or

658
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: their issues, the lack of mental health awareness that these

659
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: are much bigger than drug policy, the lack of you know,

660
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 3: sort of opportunities. There's so many very very big issues there.

661
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 3: And I really do I actually commend you for not

662
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: because you know, most of the time when I'm doing

663
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 3: these debates, these discussions, the marijuana enthusiasts, I mean, they

664
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: are bringing every kind of sympathetic person as their spokesperson

665
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 3: to say, this is why this is the wonder drug

666
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 3: of the world, and we need this, whether it's someone

667
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 3: with cancer for its stage, whether it's a veteran, whether whatever,

668
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 3: and not acknowledging any of these downsides when the science,

669
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: at least the science we have right now is actually

670
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 3: pretty clear, especially with mental health probably the worst area

671
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 3: that marijuana is touching. So I actually we have some

672
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: agreement there that I think is important well, and I

673
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: debate those people too as well, but I appreciate that.

674
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: I appreciate that.

675
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, before you go to the next one, So

676
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: let's let's say all of us do acknowledge that there

677
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: are some there are some downside there, and that we

678
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: as a society need to figure out the best public

679
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: health approach in that direction. What I would argue is

680
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: that the anti legalization kind of movement of which you're

681
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: one of the chief spokespeople, is kind of being dragged,

682
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: kicking and screaming into this new kind of paradigm, this

683
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: new approach that we have toward marijuana policy and hopefully

684
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: eventually drug policy more generally. But the kicking and screaming

685
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,479
Speaker 1: that you're doing along the way is preventing us from

686
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: creating a rational policy, but it's not preventing marijuana from

687
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: getting everywhere. Like the charts now show that there are

688
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: more people actively using marijuana, whether through gummies or something else,

689
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: than there are using alcohol. Like it has now surpassed out.

690
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: It's now surpassed alcohol.

691
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 3: Heavy. Yes, yet we're not heavy.

692
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: Right yet, we're not a right exactly. Yet we're not

693
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: able to then have a rational where Congress gets involved

694
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: and where the states can then legislate policy because you've

695
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: got you've got all of these kind of choke points,

696
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: and you guys kind of have your hands around those

697
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: choke points, so wouldn't letting those go? And then just

698
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: like saying, look, okay, we surrender, we give up, Like

699
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: this is where it's heading. Now, let's figure out how

700
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: to handle this from a public health perspective. Wouldn't that

701
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: be a better way to handle it?

702
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 3: And you're channeling the late Great you know, our friend

703
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 3: and mentor Mark climate in that, which is basically which

704
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: we have in a lot of discussions on where he

705
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 3: you know, basically said listen, I don't like that this

706
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: is happening. It's becoming big, big marijuana, but you know

707
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 3: it is, and so we got to get at the

708
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: table and prevent this from being a lot worse. I

709
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: think you can walk and shot gum at the same time.

710
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 3: I think, on the one hand, we can, and we've

711
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 3: been successful in preventing federal legalization, which I think has

712
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 3: stopped the growth. This business is not a very profitable

713
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: business right now unless you're one of the bigger guys.

714
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 3: But it really is actually become it's a total failure business. Generally.

715
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: We look at the New York State, there's so many problems.

716
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: The underground market, which we haven't talked about, is thriving.

717
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: I mean, the drug selling is thriving illegal marijuana sales.

718
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 3: So on the one hand, I think we've been successful

719
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 3: in that. I think that anything to delay that actually

720
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: I do think saves lives. I do think that's a

721
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: good thing. On the other hand, your point is well

722
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 3: taken that, you know, if we're just like not effective,

723
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: and we're kicking and screaming and being dragged to the

724
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: other side that we don't like, then we're just so

725
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 3: weak when we get to the other side, we're not

726
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: able to even get up instead at the table, we're

727
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 3: just basically limp and dead. And so we're not going

728
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 3: to influence some of these regulations. I will tell you

729
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 3: this is something we will be publicize a lot. But

730
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 3: we have worked very hard in states that have legalized marijuana,

731
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: knowing they're not going to repeal it tomorrow, that to

732
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 3: try and get these regulars to say, all right, let's

733
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: sit at the table, let's have a regulation on the gummies,

734
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 3: let's have a regulation on kid friendly products. Let's look

735
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 3: at advertising. I mean, you know, unfortunately, the Supreme Court

736
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 3: has said commercial speech is free speech, so difficult to

737
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: prevent advertising. But maybe there's some things we can do.

738
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: Let's look at THG limits. Do we really need seventy

739
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 3: percent shatter like? Is that really something that we need?

740
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 3: Or can we limit it? All of these things, and

741
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 3: it has been almost come to basically nothing because of

742
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: how powerful this industry already is. And I don't think

743
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 3: if we got there in the on day one, which

744
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 3: many people were on Day one in Colorado, a lot

745
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 3: of our colleagues were sitting at the table with Igolberg,

746
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 3: who was against legalization at the time, trying to craft

747
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: something new. They they're completely outspent and outgunned by this industry.

748
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 3: So I think it's going to take a national reckoning

749
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: like we had with tobacco. It took us eighty years

750
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 3: to get there. Unfortunately a lot of dead, lots of

751
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 3: people and destroyed families. But I do think that we

752
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 3: have things are gonna get worse before they get better,

753
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 3: and we just because it might be practical, because you

754
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: might be able to get a regulation in if you

755
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: if you sort of give up on all these other things,

756
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 3: I think it's better to stick with principle and the

757
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 3: truth and the science and trying to help as many

758
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 3: people who can now and the country. I think is

759
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 3: going to come around on this. I'm not saying they're

760
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: going to say we should lock people up. I don't

761
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 3: think we should. But I think they're going to come

762
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 3: around on this, like super over enthusiasm that more people

763
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 3: smoking weed and being high all day is good for

764
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: our society. I don't think that's gonna last forever. So

765
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: that's I think it's very different. But let's get to that.

766
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 4: That's a bit disingenuous because this concept that if you

767
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 4: use cannabis you're a stoner who's high all day.

768
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 3: I'm yeah, I'm not saying everybody yeah.

769
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 4: And there's also people who are drunk all day. I

770
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 4: actually use tobacco. I'm a smoker, and you know, one,

771
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 4: you could still legally buy cigarettes.

772
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: One.

773
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 4: I completely agree there should. There should be, you know,

774
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 4: age restrictions and things like this, and targeting children is

775
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 4: bad for whether it's alcohol, tobacco, cannabis. You know, nobody's

776
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 4: saying ban the tobacco and you can smoke cigarettes if

777
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 4: you can grow it in your backyard.

778
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 3: You know, in everybody.

779
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 5: Kevin, would you have been tobacco?

780
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: Well, look, I'll take that deal any day, John, But

781
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: that deal means that society has to treat marijuana and

782
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: think about marijuana like they do tobacco, which would be

783
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 3: a one hundred and eighty degree turn. So if we

784
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: can press a button and you want to buy a

785
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 3: marijuana cigarette back, but everyone knows marijuana's harmful, deadly, not

786
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 3: good for you, kids don't like it. It's people knows

787
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 3: the smells that you can't do it in most places.

788
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 3: I'll take the reality is that's not where we are.

789
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 3: But I wouldn't ban tobacco. Well, tobacco, actually tobacco. Let

790
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 3: me answer the question tobacco banning. I actually look at

791
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 3: New Zealand and other countries that sorted to just phase

792
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 3: out of tobacco over time. I think something like that

793
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 3: actually does make sense. In terms of alcohol, I wouldn't

794
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 3: ban alcohol. And you're saying, well, wait a minute, that

795
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 3: is like you are totally contradictory. No, I'm not the

796
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 3: reason you can't ban alcohol. I would turn off alcohol

797
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 3: if you had a switch, absolutely, because it's the most

798
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: damaging drug. It's the number one reason people in the

799
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 3: guards rated it's the number one reason for domestic violence.

800
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 3: I mean, if you could turn a flip a switch

801
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: and reverse four thousand years of history. I would do that,

802
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 3: and I'm a kill joy, I guess, but I would

803
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 3: do that. But I'm not in favorite of alcohol prohibition

804
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 3: right now. Why because way too many people are using

805
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 3: it on a regular basis and it is totally ingrained

806
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 3: in our culture in terms of widespread accepted use for

807
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 3: the last four thousand years. Yes, marijuana has been used

808
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: for thousands of years, but not by the vast majority

809
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 3: of Western civilization. It is nowhere near the cultural importance

810
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 3: of alcohol. And you cannot argue about that at all.

811
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 3: There are also some physiological differences with alcohol and THD

812
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 3: alcohol in and out of your system in twenty four hours,

813
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 3: you know that kind of thing. There's some I don't

814
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 3: want to debate that right now. But this is a

815
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 3: cultural reason you can't ban alcohol. It's not just alcohol's

816
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 3: good for you. It's because alcohol is sadly totally here,

817
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: and it's been here for four thousand years in every

818
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 3: household almost in America. And let's get to cannabis.

819
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 4: Has it work because everybody keeps smoking it?

820
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: Culture whether we like it or not. It's part of

821
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 3: a culture, John, But it's there's a reason it's counter culture.

822
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 3: There's a reason you know, I went to bird Stream.

823
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: It's definitely for sure.

824
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 4: Mainstream, lots of Republicans, tons of people. It's the counter

825
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 4: culture is the one that makes their whole life about weed.

826
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 4: And that's kind of the difference because that's the people.

827
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 3: I don't care if you're an adult smoking and joint

828
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: the prophisey of your own home and it's not your

829
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 3: complete identity and you don't think everyone should be high

830
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: all the time or whatever. That's not my beef. My

831
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: thief is the fact that we are unwittingly or unwittingly

832
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 3: creating these massive companies that tobacco's invested billions. We are

833
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 3: we have no history of regulating these items as well.

834
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 3: The only reason we do tobacco well now is because

835
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: we were dragged, kicking and screaming for almost a century

836
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: to acknowledge the harms. We, by the way, knew about

837
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 3: tobacco's arms in the twenties. In Germany and Europe, they

838
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: knew about it. So the issue is it's like do

839
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: we I guess we're going to have to learn the

840
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: hard way. I think we're gonna have to learn the

841
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 3: hard way like we did tobacco, and then it may

842
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 3: not be illegal again. But there's going to be a

843
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 3: cultural renaissance at some point.

844
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 5: So what I'm hearing from both those no John, go ahead,

845
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 5: quick response and.

846
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: And and and you know.

847
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 4: You, I do commend you for calling attention to the harms,

848
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 4: like you know, driving while while I'm talking. You know,

849
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 4: under the influence of cannabis. You know one damage concentric

850
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 4: that is good. I agree with you. Now cigarettes everybody

851
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 4: knows they're bad for you. Lots of people still smoke.

852
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 3: Sure see if.

853
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 4: Everybody, how did everybody go from oh my god, cigarettes

854
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 4: are amazing too wild?

855
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 3: These are really bad.

856
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 4: It's it's using fats and pr campaigns and people are

857
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 4: like you talking about it. So if you want to

858
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: change the culture and have it people have access, but

859
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 4: also understand the harms. I mean, keep doing what you're doing,

860
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 4: you should be. I think, like I don't have a

861
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 4: problem if you if this stuff sold with warnings like

862
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 4: like tobacco.

863
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,959
Speaker 3: We need warning labels that the industry has fought warning

864
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 3: labels and ever say we've introduced it. And that's what

865
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 3: gets The practical reality is this is a very strong

866
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 3: industry who relies on profit and heavy use. That's how

867
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: they make their money. They don't want to acknowledge the

868
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 3: word you do, and I'd love you for it, but

869
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: they don't, and they're sadly holding the key to this

870
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 3: no offense. So let me industry, Let me jump in.

871
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 5: Ye, let me jump in, because what you're really disagreeing

872
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 5: on here, from what I'm hearing, is, you know, on

873
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 5: Kevin's side, he wants to slow down, and delay is

874
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 5: a word that we've been used because fundamentally he doesn't think.

875
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 5: He thinks that the existing research is proving that marijuana

876
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 5: is very negative can have very negative consequences for users. John,

877
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 5: you believe that there isn't enough research. Therefore, some of

878
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 5: these accelerating steps Schedule three for example, are necessary in

879
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 5: order to get more information about whether or not Kevin's

880
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 5: premise is accurate. So, on that note, Kevin, I'm going

881
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 5: to ask you to maybe walk us through some of

882
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 5: the evidence that is important from your perspective, suggesting marijuana

883
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 5: is much more dangerous than perhaps people like John and

884
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 5: Ryan want to believe.

885
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: Sure. I mean, the number one thing I'd say is

886
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 3: there's not one drug that we know of that increases

887
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: your risk of psychosis bifold and psychosis is a very

888
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: scary thing. And I think it's changing the nature of

889
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: marijuana because marijuana used to be the again your kind

890
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 3: of college roommate, joking, stoner or falling asleep at night,

891
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: you know, sort of you know, be mediocre student. And

892
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 3: it's changing this into a drug that actually is very linked.

893
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 3: Now the studies are showing with aggressive behavior and even violence,

894
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 3: which is not something I even talked about ten years ago.

895
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 3: But the research, again don't believe American research. A lot

896
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 3: of those research is coming out from the UK, Australia,

897
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 3: other parts of Europe as well showing this. And that

898
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 3: is for me number one. The mental health and specifically

899
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 3: psychosis and schizophrenia, something very hard to come back from,

900
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 3: I think is extremely damaging. Then you look at things

901
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 3: like cardiovatskillar and you see that marijuana has more secondhands

902
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: smoke harms in terms of hydrocarbons and carcinogens and even tobacco.

903
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: I worry about that. I worry about the driving. Of course,

904
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 3: fifty percent of kids today I think it's okay to

905
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 3: drive while stone. One hundred percent of kids don't think

906
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 3: it's okay to drink while you know, drive while drinking.

907
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 3: The drug, but fifty percent it's okay by lose stone.

908
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 3: So huge issue that I think we need to draw

909
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 3: attention to. But I I just think that these these

910
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 3: are harms that are acknowledged in the halls of academic

911
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 3: you know, health associations all over the world, but they're

912
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 3: you know, they're completely negated by the power of popular culture,

913
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 3: the power of you know, Listen, I understand there are

914
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 3: plenty of people who use marijuana and they're fine, But

915
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 3: I would liken them to the people that drive over

916
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 3: the speed limit and they're fine. I mean, there's a

917
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 3: lot of people to drive over the speed limit that

918
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 3: have never had a cent crash. Does that mean that

919
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 3: driving over the speed limit doesn't increase the risk of

920
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 3: a car crash. No, it does increase the risk, But

921
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 3: a lot of people do it anyway, and they're fine.

922
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 3: A lot of people spoke and they're fine. My next

923
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: door neighbors spoke for seventy five years to the cigarettes tobacco,

924
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 3: and he died of old age at ninety eight years old.

925
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 3: That doesn't negate the fact that there are four hundred

926
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 3: thousand people a year dead from tobacco related illness today.

927
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 3: So you can believe both things. But I think we've

928
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 3: just taken anecdote a lot of what the baby boomer's

929
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 3: experience was marijuana that was three percent THHD, nothing that

930
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 3: happened to them. So they're trans thing their own, uh

931
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 3: sort of experiences, and they're they're generalizing that. I think

932
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 3: that's a huge hurdle to overcome because I don't think

933
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 3: it's that's the case anymore responsible. So yeah, two two

934
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 3: out of the three one.

935
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,439
Speaker 4: I you know, no, kids shouldn't think that driving while

936
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 4: stone stone is good. And this is where harm reduction

937
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 4: instead of just prohibition in education is helpful.

938
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 3: They should be told.

939
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 4: The harms of driving well under the influence of anything.

940
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 4: And as far as smoking, yeah, you're right, smoking is

941
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 4: horrible for your lungs. And if they wanted to ban

942
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 4: smoked cannabis for that reason, I really don't have an

943
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 4: issue with it.

944
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: You know then what No, I agree that that for

945
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: your lungs. But you know.

946
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 4: What I'm more saying is if we want to prohibit

947
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 4: the big corporations from selling it because it is bad

948
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 4: for the lungs, that's a discussion we can have. I

949
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 4: think the psychosis. You're right, people with schizophrenias should not

950
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 4: use drugs various compounds without supervision. But we also prescribe

951
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 4: adderall which is called cause extensive psychosis and psychotic drinks.

952
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 4: And this is where, you know, part of the issue

953
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 4: we have is, you know, this concept of good drugs

954
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 4: and bad drugs brought us the opiate epidemic, you know,

955
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 4: and frankly, psychedelics help save my life by going through

956
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 4: a four month protocol. I think we need to look

957
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 4: at contexts. Nobody bats an eye at fentanyl being used

958
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 4: as anesthesia as part of a surgery.

959
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean people should be doing it.

960
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 4: Behind seven to eleven in this idea that that anything

961
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 4: and everything's okay. When it comes to cannabis, you're right

962
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 4: that that's wrong. We should be talking about not driving.

963
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 4: I actually think more people who are pro cannabis should

964
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 4: be talking about driving while stone and how horrible it is.

965
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 4: But also a lot of the studies they don't isolate cannabis,

966
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 4: you know, on the violence. How many other compounds were.

967
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 3: Involved, Like like I was reading a people the other day.

968
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 4: Where the whole thing was about this person did a

969
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 4: psychedelic and went crazy, and if you actually look, they

970
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 4: were on alcohol, they were on cannabis, they were on

971
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 4: four different types of psychedelics and opiates at the time.

972
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: I'm talking one of those budies. I'm talking about the

973
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 3: Pew Double, these peer reviewed studies and like the highest

974
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 3: impact academic journals where you have to control these other factors. So,

975
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: of course, like the world is not black and white,

976
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 3: so are there always other factors? Very hard to control for, Yes,

977
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 3: But when you look at this sort of years, kind

978
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 3: of threshold and standard of evidence, I'm just saying it's

979
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: a lot more alarming than people think. But Ryan, you

980
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 3: said something that I think is important to call out.

981
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 3: We're not talking about prison, and I think that's also

982
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 3: a false dichotomy that the legalization movement has used very

983
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: well to say that we either have to legalize it

984
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 3: or we have to throw people in prison. But what

985
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 3: are you going to do? No, Actually, I mean again,

986
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: you could discourage that you smoke cigarettes. You could discourage

987
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 3: the use of marijuana cigarettes. You could say that there

988
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 3: are reasons why this is you at lea shouldn't make

989
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 3: an informed decision. We're also not going to let this

990
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 3: industry sell as many as they want to whomever they

991
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 3: want and label it completely mislabeled it, which is what

992
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 3: they are these legal states. I mean, the idea that

993
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 3: this is actually regulated in places like Colorado is laughable.

994
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 3: When you test the actual stuff you're buying from these dispensaries,

995
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 3: it's not. Most of the time, it's not even what

996
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 3: you think it is. So the point is, I think

997
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 3: we all agree more education campaigns. I don't know one's

998
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 3: saying we need to put people in prison. We don't

999
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 3: want to go back to nineteen fifty on us. I'm

1000
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 3: not arguing that at all.

1001
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 4: And I as federal government gets you involved with legalization

1002
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 4: and regulation, they can enforce most address most of what

1003
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 4: you were discussing.

1004
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 3: They would do that. If they would do that. It's

1005
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 3: an interesting topic because you could argue, you know, you

1006
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 3: could argue, the industry has it good. Now there's sort

1007
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 3: of there's sort of in a gray area. It's illegal,

1008
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 3: but they're doing it anyway, and they're there's no enforcement,

1009
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 3: so that means there's no there's no rules. If you say,

1010
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 3: you know what, no FDA is going to be in

1011
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 3: charge and they're actually not going to be free of

1012
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 3: industry influence and they're actually going to enforce public health

1013
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 3: as they do tobacco. Maybe that's a deal will take

1014
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 3: one day, but I don't think the FDA is there yet.

1015
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 3: I don't think.

1016
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 4: Every piece of legislation that's been introduced that I've read

1017
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 4: has basically have it full under a standard of like

1018
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 4: nutritional supplements, where what's on the bottle in the bottle

1019
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 4: has to be on the label and things like that.

1020
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: I would never want to repeat the nutritional supplement thing

1021
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,359
Speaker 3: for marijuana. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking

1022
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 3: about like the Center for Tobacco Control or something in

1023
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 3: a way that you actually could enforce advertising, the standards,

1024
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 3: warning labels, things like that. But again, I think this

1025
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 3: whole thing right now is political, just like the Men

1026
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 3: Fall band issue, and I think it's about getting votes.

1027
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 3: But I don't think that's actually I mean, I think

1028
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 3: if Biden's gonna win, he's gonna win. It's gonna lose,

1029
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 3: it's gonna lose. It's not gonna because of marijuana being

1030
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 3: rescheduled from one to three and people even knowing what

1031
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 3: that is and basing their boat on that. I just

1032
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 3: that I don't see happening at all.

1033
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: I do think it's fair to acknowledge that the that

1034
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: advocates exaggerated the number of people who were in prison

1035
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: for low level uh marijuana fences, and I think there

1036
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: was some uh it backfired in the sense that you know,

1037
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 1: when they when when they finally started doing criminal justice reform,

1038
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: they would use those stories of like, oh, we're gonna

1039
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: pardon or we're going to release the people who were

1040
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 1: only you know, serving long sentences for a dimebag of weed.

1041
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: And then they open up the prison doors and like

1042
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: three people were able to walk out. Yeah, because a

1043
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: lot of people were in from multiple things. On the

1044
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: other hand, once you're in the criminal justice system, now

1045
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: you know, uh, failing a drug test or or getting

1046
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: caught at that point then triggers you sometimes to go

1047
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: back for very long prison sentences for let's say, you know,

1048
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: boosting a car or something, but force proves people out

1049
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: of labor force. But the actual thing that you're in

1050
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: jail for is for failing that marijuana test. But it

1051
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: goes to the question of you're saying there's no no

1052
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: prison involved here, but you're talking about coercion by the state,

1053
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: so the state has to do something. So if you're

1054
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 1: saying X should be illegal, but you're saying, well, we

1055
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: don't want to have prison. What do you just just

1056
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: finding every.

1057
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 3: What do we do? Well, what do we do if

1058
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 3: you're if you're driving over the speed limit, you go

1059
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: to a class about why that's bad, You pay a fine,

1060
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 3: you have a record. What do you do if you're

1061
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know. There's some like jaywalking, loitering.

1062
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 3: There's certain things where basically the point is you want

1063
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 3: to figure it. I think you want to figure out

1064
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 3: a way to discourage the activity, which I know a

1065
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 3: lot of people don't want to do. They don't think

1066
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 3: we should do it. Why would we do that? But

1067
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: I always say, I want to discourage the activity without

1068
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 3: you know, at all going overboard on the penalty of that,

1069
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 3: because you're right, we obviously don't want to keep someone

1070
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 3: out of a labor force, or out of housing or

1071
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 3: getting healthcare or an education or a student loan. If

1072
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 3: they made a really dumb decision ten years ago and

1073
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: decided to whatever, like smoke weed in front of a

1074
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 3: cop because they were mad at the police or something,

1075
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,760
Speaker 3: and then you know, now their life is destroyed because

1076
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 3: by the time their brain was developed and they realized

1077
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 3: that was a really dumb idea now they can't get

1078
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 3: their life back on track. That those kinds of things

1079
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 3: absolutely we need to fix and we need to we

1080
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 3: need to do so. I think we have to just

1081
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,919
Speaker 3: figure out how to strike that balance. Right now though,

1082
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 3: we're just in an environment where it's like ninety five

1083
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 3: percent good. It's just everywhere you look, this is a

1084
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: good thing. It's on point, it's in the moment, this

1085
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 3: is like who like, unless you're totally like nuts, why

1086
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 3: would you think this is bad? Like we're going and

1087
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 3: I just think that we have got that that pendulum

1088
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: we talking about a pendul lem We talked about that earlier.

1089
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: That's eventually too yes, sort of repeating myself, But then

1090
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: why not just get out of the way, legalize it

1091
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: and then fight on the public health front.

1092
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 3: We've never done that successfully and the only way we've

1093
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: done that is with cigarettes. But that took one hundred

1094
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 3: years to actually do that. It wasn't like all of

1095
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 3: a sudden when we have the data, everyone came to

1096
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 3: their senses and read it and agreed with it. It

1097
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 3: took so many unnecessary lives to get to the point

1098
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 3: we're at with tobacco where there's still some freedom, like

1099
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 3: John can still you know, use the tobacco if you wants.

1100
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 3: But overall there's a societal kind of disapproval that took

1101
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 3: way too long, and so why do we need to

1102
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 3: repeat that again when we can just say, all right,

1103
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 3: if you really want to smoke weed, like do it,

1104
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 3: but don't make it like it's not We're not going

1105
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 3: to like turn around society to encourage it, but like, yes,

1106
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 3: it's going to be here. Of course, it's always been here.

1107
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that when it was prohibited, no one

1108
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 3: used it. It wasn't like legalization introduced marijuana to the country.

1109
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 3: It did introduce marijuana products we've never seen before, like

1110
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 3: shatter and things we no drug dealer had ever sold

1111
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent shatters. So it did introduce some things,

1112
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 3: but it didn't introduce this idea. And so it's kind

1113
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 3: of like it's it's actually what Pat Mark climate he's

1114
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 3: talked about grudging toleration, like you can sort of like

1115
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 3: not love it, but all right, you really want to

1116
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 3: do it because you just think it's a good thing

1117
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 3: for you. Right now, you at least should understand the

1118
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 3: dangerous but you know, all right, as long as you're

1119
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 3: not driving or whatever. Go for it. But it's very

1120
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 3: different than like the billboards on the five Freeway in

1121
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 3: LA or a governor of New York saying please come

1122
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 3: to our marijuana shops so we can make tax revenue.

1123
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 3: By the way, the tax revenue has been pennies in

1124
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 3: every state. But it's like we're encouraging this either by

1125
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 3: the state or by on you know, private industry, and

1126
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 3: I just don't think that ever ends well from a

1127
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 3: public health perspective. All all right, well, let me ask

1128
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 3: you that.

1129
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 4: Go ahead, let me ask you this because you mentioned

1130
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 4: it should be treated like speeding, where you go to

1131
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 4: a clash and you pay a fine and your insurance.

1132
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 4: So what happens to the people who can't afford those things?

1133
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 4: What do they go to jail?

1134
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 3: Those are well, those are larger issues with us. Thankfully,

1135
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 3: marijuana is not the only area where we would find people,

1136
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 3: and those are issues that absolutely we need to look at. Me. No,

1137
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 3: I don't think they would go to jail. What would

1138
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 3: they do? I don't know what we'd have to think about.

1139
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 3: I don't have those answers right now, but I don't

1140
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 3: think that's necessarily an answer that I don't think that's

1141
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 3: the exclusive to marijuana. There's an issue of finds and

1142
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 3: things for a lot of a lot of other things

1143
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 3: that we do. So we'd have to look at best

1144
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 3: practices and try it. And if you don't pay the fines,

1145
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 3: you go to jail.

1146
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 4: So that's what you're saying is if you have, if

1147
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 4: you have the money to be able to do it,

1148
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 4: you can and if you don't, you go to jail.

1149
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 3: No, I'm not saying that, So I'm not saying you

1150
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 3: go to jail. So maybe that happens in some other instances.

1151
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 3: That's not my proposal. I think there are may be

1152
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 3: other things you could do to discourage that happens in

1153
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 3: the example that you actually use. But with speeding, if

1154
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 3: you're parking tickets, it sometimes does. But I'm saying that's

1155
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 3: it's I'm not saying that should be the exact blueprint

1156
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 3: that I'm saying, as a general principle, discourage speeding with

1157
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: speed limits. We don't usually put people in prison for

1158
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 3: that offense. You're saying, if they don't, you know, do

1159
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 3: the first two things you want them to do, then

1160
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 3: they end up going to prison. Maybe we can think

1161
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 3: of something better. I think it would be preferable. Then again,

1162
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 3: the what we're having now, which is open you know,

1163
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 3: promotion and the advertising of an activity that is inherently

1164
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 3: well and on advertising tobacco.

1165
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 4: Tobacco is very limited on advertising, and so is hard liquor.

1166
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 3: And I don't have a problem.

1167
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 4: With with with cannabis be being placed in that same

1168
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 4: realm where you can't advertise in you know, teen Vogue,

1169
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 4: your your gummies. You know, I completely agree with that,

1170
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 4: But that doesn't I would like they can advertise, you know,

1171
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 4: advertising is well, yeah, the industry does. I have lots

1172
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 4: of problems with lots of industries. That doesn't mean I

1173
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 4: think their products should be banned.

1174
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 5: Well, what we all want here is a path to

1175
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:02,439
Speaker 5: safer use or safe use period. Safe use period. Whether

1176
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 5: that means very very very limited use or whether that

1177
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 5: means more widespread normalized use is a question. But I'm

1178
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 5: going to read from mother Jones right here, John, just

1179
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,959
Speaker 5: a little bit. They were writing an article on Alex

1180
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 5: Bearnson's book on weed at the time, and they wrote

1181
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 5: In twenty seventeen, the National Academies of Sciences Engineering in

1182
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 5: Medicine issued a report nearly five hundred pages long in

1183
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 5: the health effects of cannabis and concluded that marijuana use

1184
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 5: is strongly associated with the development of psychosis and schizophrenia.

1185
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 5: The researchers also noted that there's decent evidence linking pot

1186
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 5: consumption to worsening symptoms of bipolar disorder into a heightened

1187
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 5: risk of suicide, depression, and social anxiety disorders. Quote. The

1188
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 5: higher they use, the greater the risk, and psychosis, as

1189
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 5: Kevin mentioned, has emerged as or the potential for psychosis

1190
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,439
Speaker 5: has emerged as really that fertile ground for where people

1191
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 5: are starting. Some people are actually changing their minds on

1192
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 5: weed legalization as they look at this research. Nobody could

1193
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 5: ever accuse you, John, of not having enough concern for

1194
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 5: the mental health of people in the United States. You've

1195
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 5: seen so much of this up close. Why does this

1196
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 5: research with which some people see as an emergent area,

1197
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 5: understudied area, and underappreciated era area, why does that not

1198
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 5: convince you to pause instead of sort of, you know,

1199
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 5: break down barriers towards normalization.

1200
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 4: Well, one, if we're talking about medical use, going back

1201
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 4: to the original thing, a Schedule three FDA approved drug

1202
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 4: for medically use, prescribed by a physician, they can ensure

1203
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 4: there aren't co morbidities like schizophrenia, like bipolar, which have

1204
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 4: a genetic link. And I have the utmost empathy for

1205
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 4: people with those conditions. They shouldn't use this. They shouldn't

1206
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 4: use alcohol either. Tobacco and nicotine really doesn't have an

1207
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 4: effect on schizophrenia, bipolar, Alcohol absolutely does. Compounds like adderall

1208
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 4: and riddling absolutely, do you know, believe it or not,

1209
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 4: caffeine can have an impact. Now, people with bipolar and schizophrenia,

1210
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 4: or who have a family history of it shouldn't, just

1211
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 4: like people who have a history of alcoholism shouldn't drink.

1212
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 4: And I agree there needs to be a lot more education.

1213
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 4: But the idea that a small percentage of people who

1214
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 4: have these disorders shouldn't do it means no one should,

1215
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 4: and that it should be blocked from medical access and

1216
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 4: shouldn't be, for example, prescribed by the VA. Because one

1217
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,959
Speaker 4: of the bigger issues with cannabis is it does work.

1218
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 4: You know, it works for chronic pain, and it works

1219
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 4: for PTSD as long as you continue to use it.

1220
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 4: And so should we just tell those people you don't

1221
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 4: have access to the most effective medicine you know?

1222
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 3: Because to me, this is what everybody.

1223
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 4: Every you know, as a veteran, I see how every

1224
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 4: industry uses veterans to say.

1225
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 3: We have to do this.

1226
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 4: Well, the VA issued exactly zero prescriptions for any for

1227
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 4: cannabis last year.

1228
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 3: And I would much rather put it, issue a prescription

1229
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 3: that is not prescribable drug. What would you wanted them

1230
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 3: to do? Genuine question, You can't. No one can prescribe cannabis,

1231
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 3: not VA or not correct I mean marit all or

1232
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 3: do you mean recommendations?

1233
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 4: No, What I mean is FDA approved cannabis products that

1234
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 4: could be prescribed because there are uses for this that

1235
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 4: are medical. And what this means for the people who

1236
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 4: genuinely need it is if their job prohibits it, they

1237
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 4: don't get the medicine they need. You know, imagine imagine

1238
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 4: if you know anybody was told, hey, we know you

1239
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 4: broke your leg, but you can't take opiate's because we

1240
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 4: don't like those, even if it's you're not on the job,

1241
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 4: I don't.

1242
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 3: I know, we're going to go sort of get another direction.

1243
01:03:58,040 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 3: But it's not that we don't like those, John, it's

1244
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 3: that we don't have an f day for medication. You

1245
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 3: would argue we don't because there's too many barriers. I'd argue,

1246
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 3: we don't because it just failed that what needs to

1247
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 3: happen to become a medication. That's why advocates have had

1248
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 3: to go to the state, the state route and vote

1249
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 3: on medicine, which is.

1250
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 4: A well because NIA wouldn't provide the compound to do

1251
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 4: the research.

1252
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: Yeah right, and that's where yeah, yeah, going back to

1253
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 1: my point earlier, the the opponents have stood in the

1254
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: way of reform at every different level, whether it's you know, federal, state,

1255
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: or local. But then to complain that, oh well, you

1256
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: couldn't get you couldn't move on the federal level, so

1257
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: you move down to the state level, and you relied

1258
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: on voters because it is something that voters wanted. Is

1259
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 1: is to me disingenuous because they were forced to go

1260
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: to the state level. I think advocates of reform would

1261
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,960
Speaker 1: just be delighted to you know, work collaboratively with Congress

1262
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: and introduce, you know, rational legislation that took into account

1263
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: public health concerns. But that that is blocked and it's

1264
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: also blocked by a very politicized DEA. And we got

1265
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 1: to wrap soon. But I'll just tell one story that

1266
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: people might know. I was back in two thousand and

1267
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: four and five. I was a state level lobbyist for

1268
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: this organization called Marijuana Policy Project, and one of the

1269
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: states that where I was responsible for was Illinois and

1270
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: we were pushing a medical marijuana legislation. Is my job

1271
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: to kind of push this bill through the legislature. We

1272
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 1: get a hearing in the either in the House or

1273
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: the Senate, State House, state Senate. I will remember, I

1274
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 1: think it was the Senate, and we've got our you know,

1275
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 1: you have the cancer patients lined up, you got the

1276
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: experts lined up. There's some cop is going to show

1277
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: up and you know they're going to they're going to

1278
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 1: argue it out before these legislators. And then all of

1279
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: a sudden, the guy who's on the ground for us

1280
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 1: is like, there is a convoy on its way here.

1281
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 1: They're shutting down the streets, and the drug himself was

1282
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: like coming in, you know, from the Bush administration as

1283
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: a surprise guest to then who then whipped up this

1284
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: lobbying campaign against it. So on the one hand, complaining

1285
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 1: that the medicine is being politicized, on the other hand,

1286
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: we've constructed this entire federal bureaucracy, which then does active

1287
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: lobbying of the government, like the government lobbying itself, the

1288
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: government lobbying other governments to me, felt extremely undemocratic. So

1289
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 1: then to look at that and say, well, we don't

1290
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 1: like the approach because then you have to go to referenda.

1291
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: You put it on the ballot, and you go directly

1292
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: to the voters, and you tell the drugs are well, okay,

1293
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: you can go ahead and campaign against it, but you're

1294
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 1: not gonna be able to break arms in Springfield to

1295
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: stop this bill from moving through Illinois. Now it's going

1296
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: to go to the voters. So and then to say, well,

1297
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 1: it's not fair that we're making this a popular issue

1298
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 1: rather than letting scientists deal with it, that the science

1299
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 1: were not taking the lead in the past.

1300
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 3: Either, Well, a couple of things. Number one that that

1301
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 3: doesn't happen anymore. That was the relict of two thousand

1302
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 3: and four. We haven't had a drugs are involved in

1303
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 3: this in a very long are.

1304
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: The Obama administration was like an ally of in this

1305
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: fight of on the drug policy.

1306
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 3: For yes, it depends which depends which one? I mean,

1307
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 3: I worked for the first one. And he said that

1308
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 3: legalization is not in the president's vocabulary. I gues President

1309
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 3: Obama was not in favor of legalization, yeah, back in

1310
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 3: but he did one thing. I just think it's important

1311
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,919
Speaker 3: for people to remember that. It was President Obama talked

1312
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 3: about big industry he went to Jamaica. When he went

1313
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 3: to that trip, someone asked him about what about marijuana

1314
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 3: in Jamaica, and he talked about be careful of big industry.

1315
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 3: He and sat down interview said, you know what's next

1316
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 3: to marijuana? First? What about other drugs if you think

1317
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 3: it's better to regulate them? What about crap? What about heroin?

1318
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 3: I mean, those are very good points. We kind of

1319
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 3: forget those were made. But I will say, you know,

1320
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 3: the DEA, in terms of the current THEA and what

1321
01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 3: they're doing, they're simply going the FDA. They created an

1322
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 3: entirely new test to determine marijuana should be scheduled three.

1323
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 3: This was hit a box job from the beginning. They

1324
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 3: were trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

1325
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 3: They had to do something on reform. They had clear

1326
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 3: direction from the White House to do this, and I

1327
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 3: think they had that direction not because Biden is pro marijuana,

1328
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 3: but probably because advisors said, listen, we know you're never

1329
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 3: going to come out for legalization fully by mister president,

1330
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 3: but let's have this compromise where basically we can kind

1331
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 3: of in some ways people can be sort of tricked

1332
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 3: into thinking it's sort of a legalization type think even

1333
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 3: though it really isn't. And that way was sort of

1334
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 3: covering both basis. I actually think in doing that, they're

1335
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 3: pissing everybody off, and except for maybe this industry, but

1336
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 3: they pissed off the legalizers who said, wait a minute,

1337
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 3: this is not even anything close to legalization, and they

1338
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 3: pissed off people like me. You're saying, wait a minute,

1339
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 3: you're giving tax breaks to the industry. You're sending a

1340
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:55,680
Speaker 3: message just as okay, and you're using shoddy research and

1341
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 3: a test you've never used before, totally out of president,

1342
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 3: which will be likely challenged core to try and fit

1343
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 3: your narrative. So in doing so, it was not a

1344
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 3: sort of neat thing to do, and they I think

1345
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 3: they thought they were being very clever, but it's going

1346
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 3: to backfire. It already is.

1347
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 1: Ast him.

1348
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 3: What's that bright?

1349
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: I was just saying, Biden has a unique ability to

1350
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 1: unite everybody against him.

1351
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, So anyway, it'll be interesting to see. I would

1352
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 3: the only the thing I would I think we had

1353
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 3: a lot of agreements that think I would challenge on.

1354
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:30,840
Speaker 3: Is this idea that we haven't done the research that

1355
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 3: there hasn't been global research of If this has been

1356
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,680
Speaker 3: so great in the United States that's come into it,

1357
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 3: why don't we have a lot of marijuana based medications

1358
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 3: approved in every other country in the world, including Europe

1359
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,679
Speaker 3: where they do tons of research. I mean we don't.

1360
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 3: I mean they have a proof Satavax, which I have

1361
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 3: no problem with, but it's failed on FGA trials, it

1362
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 3: did not do well on pain for advocacy, it just

1363
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:53,680
Speaker 3: was not that efficacious. In the US, we have a

1364
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,879
Speaker 3: very high standard. It's passed in England and some other countries.

1365
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 3: I have no problem with that. But I don't think

1366
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 3: this is some sort of unique conspiracy among American sort

1367
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 3: of FDA and DEA regulators to not have marijuana based

1368
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 3: medicaid at least currently maybe in nineteen eighty, but not

1369
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 3: right now, to not have marijuana based medications be researched.

1370
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 3: I think that research has failed, and so yeah, they

1371
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 3: had to go to the ballot box because we're not

1372
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,799
Speaker 3: having any left for the normal scientific channels. So John

1373
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 3: at the policy.

1374
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 5: John, this will be okay. We'll give you the last word,

1375
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 5: final thoughts, closing statement, whatever you want to call it

1376
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 5: before we wrap here.

1377
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:34,880
Speaker 3: Well, you know you're right.

1378
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 4: There hasn't been a lot of moves internationally, in part

1379
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 4: because the United States wields unprecedented authority through the UN

1380
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 4: Commission on Narcotic Drugs and assigned treaties that countries basically

1381
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 4: want US funding and don't want to fight us on

1382
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 4: on the weed issue. I also find it interesting that,

1383
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 4: you know, if we had done the research, the human

1384
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 4: clan trials and actually allowed it instead of blocking it

1385
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,719
Speaker 4: until a few years ago, we would have had FDA

1386
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 4: approved drugs and we wouldn't have had to go through

1387
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 4: the States continuing to say that this shouldn't be used

1388
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:13,600
Speaker 4: as a medicine in a regulated environment.

1389
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 3: Is just go through. Just go through the process, and

1390
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 3: I'll have no issue. I'm not fighting the n DM

1391
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 3: A likely MDMA approval that's happening in a few months

1392
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 3: because it went through the FBS. So if you're saying

1393
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 3: you now have everything you need, right and let's do

1394
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 3: it and see it in NBA has been, and the

1395
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 3: US federal government allowed.

1396
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 4: Maps as well as a compass for psilocybin and others

1397
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 4: to procure the actual compounds needed for double blind, placebo

1398
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 4: controlled trials. The first time that was ever allowed with

1399
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:51,599
Speaker 4: cannabis for drug development was only a few years ago.

1400
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,600
Speaker 3: In the United States. But let's let's go ahead and

1401
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 3: see what's going to happen. So if it's going to

1402
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 3: be allowed, it's been a few years ago, they have

1403
01:11:58,240 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 3: a running start. I think we can.

1404
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,919
Speaker 4: We can is currently blocking human clinical trials on cannabis

1405
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 4: currently right now, there's multiple protocols that they keep kicking.

1406
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 3: Back, maybe because still passing the safety standards. But anyway,

1407
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 3: let's go through the standard. That's my point. Let's and

1408
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 3: if it's blocking it because it's not passing those those standards,

1409
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:20,639
Speaker 3: then maybe it's something that, you know, maybe it's something

1410
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:22,640
Speaker 3: with an issue with marijuana, with the fact that this

1411
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:24,799
Speaker 3: is not that people are not handling a well, I don't.

1412
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:26,559
Speaker 5: Know, we have to see final thoughts.

1413
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,600
Speaker 4: John. The biggest honestly, yeah, honestly, the biggest issue is

1414
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 4: the fact that it's a plant and from plant to

1415
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,880
Speaker 4: plant and bud to bud, you don't have imogineity, which

1416
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 4: does cause a problem in going through FDA trials. Those

1417
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 4: can also be rectified or they can be used to

1418
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 4: block trials.

1419
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 1: Sure, we'll have to leave it there, all right, Well, yeah,

1420
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 1: thanks guys, I think we settled this. Yeah, we're going

1421
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 1: to get piece of cake.

1422
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 5: But it actually was really helpful, So thank you both.

1423
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,559
Speaker 3: Have you just had Do you have a decision yet

1424
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 3: on where you stand? Or you're still weighing the pros

1425
01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 3: and cons I don't. I don't.

1426
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 5: I'm still weighing the pros and kinds of a psychosis

1427
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 5: stuff does actually have me rather concerned. I won't get

1428
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 5: into why, but anyway, Oh.

1429
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 3: There was a woman there was that you heard about

1430
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 3: that woman who stabbed her? Was it her boyfriend or husband?

1431
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,040
Speaker 3: Like that? Bro? Like fifty times in the last year

1432
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:15,600
Speaker 3: for me and just and got off is running is

1433
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:18,800
Speaker 3: now out free because the judge let her defense use

1434
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 3: marijuana as the reason why she did it. And that's

1435
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:24,600
Speaker 3: cost a lot of waves.

1436
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 5: Boy, sometimes Ryan says things and then he uses marijuana

1437
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 5: as an excuse for why he did it.

1438
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 1: I don't even smoke.

1439
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:36,520
Speaker 3: No, he's a responsible dad. Now he's grown out of it.

1440
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,520
Speaker 3: It's true.

1441
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 1: True.

1442
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 5: Well, thank you both so much.

1443
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 1: John Kevin Sabbage. Kevin Sabbage is the author of Smoke

1444
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 1: Screen with the marijuana industry doesn't want, you know, John

1445
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:49,599
Speaker 1: Leve Becky not yet an author, but I bet we'll

1446
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 1: get a book from you one day.

1447
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 3: Is that right, Sue?

1448
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, excellent, looking forward to it. Well, thanks so much.

1449
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 3: Guys.

1450
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 1: All right, now that they left, you can be honest,

1451
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 1: what did you think?

1452
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 5: I'm still completely undecided. And you know, it's not like

1453
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 5: I think we've all seen people struggle with marijuana, some

1454
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 5: people more than others, and that's you know, some people

1455
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 5: struggle with caffeine more than others. I don't think some

1456
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 5: people struggle with alcohol more than others. So I don't

1457
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 5: think that definitively answers the question. I am really interested

1458
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:23,760
Speaker 5: in some of the new research linking high concentration, high

1459
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 5: cont high potency THHC with psychosis. I just have I

1460
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 5: feel like I've personally seen cases of people who I

1461
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 5: wonder if really heavy we'd use when they were kids,

1462
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:38,040
Speaker 5: before the age of eighteen. You just when you're a

1463
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:40,040
Speaker 5: teenager in your brain is developing. There's still so much

1464
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 5: we don't know about the human brain. That does concern

1465
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 5: me very much because I feel like I've seen things

1466
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 5: that make me question it just personally, and there is

1467
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 5: some research in it, but I don't disagree that there

1468
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 5: needs to be more.

1469
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we could have had a much more libertarian

1470
01:14:56,600 --> 01:15:01,599
Speaker 1: leaning kind of propod person like John. He's much more moderate,

1471
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: which I wanted because it would kind of push it

1472
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 1: would push Kevin a little bit more, because Kevin very

1473
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:12,880
Speaker 1: good debater, and like I've known him almost twenty years now,

1474
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: and he has I think his rhetoric has changed over

1475
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 1: over time. As you know, when I started working in

1476
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:25,559
Speaker 1: this issue, it was a minority well in the minority issue.

1477
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:29,720
Speaker 1: Like now maybe people can't even believe that, but like

1478
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:31,760
Speaker 1: that we would be where we are now when I

1479
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 1: start working on this. This is almost unthinkable, although I

1480
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 1: did predict it in the books.

1481
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:38,839
Speaker 5: I was going to say not quite.

1482
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 1: Unthinkable, unthinkable to most people. You could you could see,

1483
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 1: you could see where it was headed if you looked close,

1484
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:46,879
Speaker 1: if you ap peered closely enough. But he has adopted

1485
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 1: as rhetoric to kind of fit with the mood a

1486
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: little bit, but yet but he still really wants it

1487
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: banned you and John called him out on that the

1488
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 1: most part.

1489
01:15:55,960 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 5: If you're blocking the research, you've supported blocking the research, right, So.

1490
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 1: But I yeah, I think if he really wants a

1491
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:08,559
Speaker 1: better outcome with fewer tears than getting the boot off

1492
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:14,839
Speaker 1: the neck of the regulatory and legislative apparatus would allow

1493
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 1: then for a public health approach to blossom and give

1494
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:21,639
Speaker 1: that a shot, like we were talking about earlier in Portland,

1495
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:23,800
Speaker 1: Like you know, they tried to go forward with some

1496
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:25,759
Speaker 1: type of de grim but then didn't put in place

1497
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 1: anything to take its place, so it was just chaos.

1498
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: And now the voters are like, I forget that.

1499
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 5: You know, That's increasingly where I'm landing on this is that.

1500
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 5: And they both kind of were openly concerned as I'm

1501
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 5: sure you are too about industry predatory industry, which our

1502
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 5: country is so oligarchical now that cronyism rampant, and it

1503
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 5: makes it actually hard to know to sort of peace

1504
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 5: factorm fiction because there's so much lobbying in different spaces.

1505
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 5: So the FDA saying one thing might actually not mean much,

1506
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:01,559
Speaker 5: and I mean it just actually we live in a

1507
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 5: country right now where it's so hard to get to

1508
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:05,240
Speaker 5: the bottom of some of these questions because there's so

1509
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 5: much money influencing it. There's so much money influencing the

1510
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 5: way certain policies are then implemented. So even if you're

1511
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 5: experimenting in the great laboratories of democracy, you end up

1512
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 5: with results that's like, I don't know, I don't know

1513
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:20,560
Speaker 5: what to take from this, genuinely don't know what to

1514
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 5: take from this, because implementing it was there were hurdles

1515
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 5: along the way because of the system, you know, mucking

1516
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:27,560
Speaker 5: it up with cronyism.

1517
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:32,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a rational drug policy. It feels impossible. One

1518
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:36,799
Speaker 1: reason it's impossible, you've got these opponents who are like,

1519
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 1: like I said, I have to be dried kicking and

1520
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: screaming to it.

1521
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1522
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:41,960
Speaker 1: Anyway, interesting conversation.

1523
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 5: It was a really interesting conversation. And I feel like

1524
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 5: marijuana doesn't get enough attention in the media proportionate to

1525
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:51,599
Speaker 5: how much it affects the daily lives of people around

1526
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:55,480
Speaker 5: the country. And maybe in some ways it's like symptomatic

1527
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:57,400
Speaker 5: of other things that are affecting the daily lives of

1528
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:59,240
Speaker 5: people around the country, like the labor force stuff. I

1529
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 5: think is how many times do you hear people can't

1530
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 5: hire workers in their community because the workers are failing

1531
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 5: drug tests because they smoked a little bit of weed.

1532
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 5: It's a serious problem for a lot of businesses and

1533
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 5: a lot of people who are having a hard time

1534
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 5: finding work and places where weed hasn't been legalized. So

1535
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 5: it's a really really big issue, and I don't think

1536
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:18,800
Speaker 5: it gets enough attention. I don't think there are enough

1537
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 5: debates like them.

1538
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 1: Kevin's point that the kids don't really care because it's

1539
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 1: basically legal anyway is one that he should also absorb.

1540
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 1: If that's the case, then relax and let it go

1541
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 1: and move forward on thinking about this in a more

1542
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 1: rational way.

1543
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 5: Yeah. And if that's the case, then you end up

1544
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:41,400
Speaker 5: with what was happening during prohibition. And obviously we could

1545
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 5: have had a whole debate about a whole debate about

1546
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:47,879
Speaker 5: these shadow industry and what that is if that's actually

1547
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 5: even beneficial to Kevin's goal of keeping it out of

1548
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:53,040
Speaker 5: most people's hands.

1549
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 1: So all right, Well that does it for Counterpoints. If

1550
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 1: you watch this on regular YouTube with like eight different

1551
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: ad breaks, that's because you're not a previeum subscriber. You

1552
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: should go to Breakingpoints dot com. Get it there. You'll

1553
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 1: then get every show every morning emailed to you. This

1554
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:15,560
Speaker 1: one comes out Thursday evening or Friday morning for non subscribers.

1555
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:18,720
Speaker 5: That's right, Breakingpoints dot Com. We'll see you back here

1556
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 5: next Wednesday and next Friday. Having a lot of fun

1557
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 5: with these shows. Hope everyone has a great weekend.

1558
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a good weekend. See you later.