1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: and his thirty years struggle on San Quentin's Death Throw, 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: a petition on his behalf. Visit free Jarvis dot org 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: slash podcast to sign your name to an open letter 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom, 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: Dear Governor news Public. Though physically confined by as nine 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: by four sell for over forty years, Jarvis Masters has 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: managed to reach far beyond the thick walls and razor 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: wires of San Quentin. Due to his unique perspective, strong opinions, 13 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: and prolific writings, he has become a sought after contributor 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: for very a social justice and Buddhist oriented organizations. Recently, 15 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: the Awake Network and Shambala Publications hosted a free online event, 16 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: the Black and Buddhist Summit, that attracted over ten thousand participants. 17 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: Pamela Ioya Tunde, a pastoral counselor, chaplain and co editor 18 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: of Black and Buddhist What Buddhism can teach us about race, resilience, 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: transformation and healing. Hosted the summit and invited Jarvis to participate. 20 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: There are so many Buddhists authors out there. Why Jarvis? 21 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: What drew to Jarvis? Yeah? You know, I think I 22 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: first heard about Jarvis when I worked for short period 23 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: time with the National Coalition to a policy death penalty. 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: This was back in the late eight days or early nineties. 25 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: And then encountered his writings again when I was in 26 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: the Sati Center for Buddhist Studies chaplaincy program m in 27 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: the early two thousand's. And then as we were thinking 28 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: about what subjects we wanted to address during the summit, 29 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: I said, well, you know the fact that there's so 30 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,679 Speaker 1: many African Americans in prison, and we know that the 31 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: people learn uh to hone their skills, writing skills in prison. 32 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: People often find a new way of life for religion 33 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: or spirituality in prison. There must be African descended Buddhist 34 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: practitioners who were writers in prison, and them boom, you know, 35 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: Jarvis came to mind, and so that's how and so 36 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: we reached out through you. Yeah, he he is a 37 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 1: he's a prolific writer and thinker for sure. I remember 38 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: I was in a Buddhist gathering and I was talking 39 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: with someone and we're talking about, oh, you know, the 40 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: Black and Buddhist Some of that was so wonderful. And 41 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: this person very slowly raised up her copy of Finding 42 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: Freedom and held it like this, and then slowly brought 43 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: it down and just said, Wow, that was some of 44 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: the most significant dharma teaching I have ever received. And 45 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: this person is a dharma teacher. Yeah. I think now 46 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: more than ever in my life anyway, thanks to the 47 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: work of Brian Stevenson and others, that people are accepting 48 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: the fact that there have been many people wrongly accused, 49 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: many people spending decades behind bars for something they didn't do. 50 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: And so maybe that's on the other side of society 51 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: becoming more violent, we're also waking up to the injustices 52 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: of our criminal justice system, and maybe there's a little 53 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: more grace around that. Following is the full conversation that 54 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: Jarvis and I had, which was streamed during the Black 55 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: and Buddhist Summit, in which he shares his thoughts about 56 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: how Buddhism plays an important role in the lives of 57 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: black Americans who are or have been incarcerated. I am 58 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: Jarvis Masters. I've been in San Quentin for close to 59 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: forty years. A few months short of that. I became 60 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: a Buddhist in nineteen one, I think her two. I've 61 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: written two books, one Finding Freedom and the other is 62 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: That Bird Has My Wings. I have various teachers, and 63 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: all my teachers have given me the benefit of their 64 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: experience in the last thirty years, and I've been using 65 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: those experiences in prison as much as they fit the 66 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: circumstances that we live in. How did you get introduced 67 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: to Buddhism back in or ninety How did you find it? 68 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: I was waiting to see if I was going to 69 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: receive the death sentence for the death of a sergeant, 70 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: Sergeant Burstfield, and said Quentin. That occurred in and my 71 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: friend and teacher, one of my teachers, Melo D. Armor 72 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: Child thought, because I was down there and the holding 73 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: think that I might want to read a magazine that 74 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: was familiar to her. And it was called Inquiring Mind, 75 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: An Insight, Inquiring Mind. They had this little clip and 76 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: it said free book. In the name of the book 77 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: was Life and Relationship to Death. And I sat there 78 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: and read it for almost a week. Why my why 79 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: the jurys and deliberation, and I just thought, hey, you know, 80 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: let me try this, you know, life and relationship to death. 81 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, it was where I was. You know, I 82 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: wasn't there because because of my trial. I was there. 83 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: I realized that name because of my whole life history, 84 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: and I took heart to that, and eventually I got 85 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: a free copy of the book and I wrote to 86 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: thank them, and a woman named Lisa Leghorn responded and 87 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: we created a correspondence and at some point I realized 88 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: she was a senior student of who is now my 89 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: teacher took to representate and eventually he, you know, he 90 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: came down to visit me a few times, and at 91 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: some point I was giving the empowerment. It's a ceremony 92 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: that was just basically to introduce me to Rogeriana Buddhism. 93 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: And I became a student of that practice US and 94 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: I was giving a practice called the Red Tar practice. 95 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: And I thought that practice, as I began to sit 96 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: with it, was a very clear, honest way of opening 97 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: me up to see where freedom really is. What is 98 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: the practice? Retire practice is a guide, a way of 99 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: opening the door of confronting our suffering and suffering of 100 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: all beings. And it's a prayer that allows us to 101 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, work on that, work on opening many many 102 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: doors that has been locked. There were a locked for me, 103 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: particularly because there was a lot of things I was denial. 104 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: There was a lot of things that I'd impaired attention 105 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: to that my life gave some purpose floor and I 106 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: really really got into it. I I thought it as 107 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: a perfect guy for where I was in my life. 108 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: Why what what was it about Buddhism in particular that 109 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: drew you in? Oh, it was the opening gate. It 110 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: opened a lot of doors. It opened a lot of 111 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: gates for me to sit with. It was a practice 112 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: what you know, that had meditation, a lot of meditation. 113 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: It was a practice that that dealt with me and 114 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: the suffering that I was dealing with, you know, the 115 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: human suffering that I was dealing with. Let's call and 116 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: your telephone numbers will be monitored and recorded. And it 117 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: taught me how to begin the process of dissolving those 118 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: those things, those obstacles that has been in my life. 119 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: There was that life Jarvis, like when you first meditated, 120 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: So you're you're sitting there and you're waiting to hear 121 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: the verdict back on the death sentence. Walk us through 122 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: your oriens with meditation. Wasn't frustrating at first? Did you 123 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: take to it like a fish to water? Now? I 124 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: just I just learned how to sit down and and 125 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: to probably the opposite. I just sit down and started 126 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: thinking that was a good thing for me, because I 127 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: had to learn how to sit down first. Before I 128 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: learned how to meditate. I was a very angry person 129 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: and I didn't particularly things. Sitting down was you know, 130 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: fulfilling for me at that time. So I just had 131 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: to learn how to sit down and sit down with me, 132 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: you know. And that took a while. You know, there 133 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: was a lot of times where I was bored with it, 134 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: but I made a commitment to myself. I just sit there, 135 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: and things start opening up. Gates started opening up, windows 136 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: start becoming with more fresh air than I had ever 137 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: felt before. And that was a beautiful time for me, 138 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: It really was. And I was dealing with san Quentin, 139 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: and I was dealing with death role, and I was 140 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: dealing with how did I get to this point in 141 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: my life? And I started realizing that we all suffered 142 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: to some degree or another and that I was not alone. 143 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things my teacher, one of my 144 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: teachers taught me was that you know, you're not the 145 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: worst case. You know, uh, there's many people who have 146 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: far more worse problems than you. And that was a 147 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: that was a guiding light for me to not think 148 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: of me for me, but just think of all beings 149 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: and all people who suffered way more than I do. 150 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: And I really felt a companionship with that. You know, 151 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: was it difficult at first? I mean, did you have 152 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: any resentment? Because to tell you that there are people 153 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: worse off than you here you are potentially on death row? 154 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: How did that sit with you? I learned Buddhism pretty 155 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: much at the feet of my teacher, so I was 156 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: really really guided, very I was very trained. I had 157 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: the benefit of really really having a songa a community, 158 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: and I had members of that community visit me often, 159 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: so I never went outside what I was trained to 160 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: sit with. Well, the difficult I think it was not 161 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: in retrospect. Wasn't boring, of course that was yes, it 162 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: was born at very boring for me. I just had 163 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: the benefit of having teachers all around me my age 164 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: older than me, folks who have been into Buddhism twenty 165 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: years before I had. And these people really really trained 166 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: trained me, taught me a lot. But more than that, 167 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: they taught me how to teach myself, and that was 168 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: something I never really really had the ability to learn 169 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: how to teach myself. You can find all kinds of teachers, 170 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, and all kinds of teachers want you to 171 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: think like they do, aren't practice like they do. In 172 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: my community taught me how to think for myself, taught 173 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: me how to become my own practitioners because they recognized 174 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: that I was on sad Qui death row and for 175 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: many them, they couldn't even fathom the thought of being 176 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: physically on death row. For them, they thought, wow, he's 177 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: really he really is suffering. He is in that sea 178 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: of suffering. He is face and death, real death. And 179 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: they made me realize that. But they also made me 180 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: realize that that is nothing close to me in the 181 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: end of who I was, you know, it was the 182 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: beginning of who I became. Um, I just had the 183 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: opportunity to have some serious people around me, so you 184 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: learned the first step was to learn to sit with yourself. 185 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: Can you describe what that looked like, I assumed you 186 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: sat in your mind by four sell and just sat 187 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: on the ground. Just said on the ground. I mean, 188 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 1: I didn't want to sit on no cushions. I wanted 189 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: to sit on the ground because I really wanted to 190 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: feel what my body was going through, you know, I 191 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: really wanted to feel that sense of suffering. I didn't 192 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: want to make this place comfortable, and I was determined 193 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: not to do that. I was determined not to hide behind, 194 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, being a Buddhist and having a Buddhist community, 195 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: asked my way of getting through all the doors that 196 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: I needed to. At point, did sitting with yourself evolved 197 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: into a meditation practice? And what did that look like? Well, 198 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: I thought, I thought. One of the reason, and this 199 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: is in retrospect, because this happened, you know, thirty years ago. 200 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: So um, I think I was trying to ground out 201 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: the noise that became my my sense of refuge. I 202 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: was really trying to ground out the noise because San 203 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: Quentin is a very, very very loud place. So I 204 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: was trying to ground out the noise. And a lot 205 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: of things came to mind that one practitioner, another friend 206 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: had said to me and I said with that, you know, 207 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: just out of curiosity, you know. And then I started 208 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: getting some guidance about meditation, you know, and those particular 209 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: instructions that's called andrew our telephone numbers be monitored and recorded. 210 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: A lot you had sixty seconds remaining. Excuse me, A 211 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: lot of them did not fit saying quickly. So I 212 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: have to figure out a way to make my practice 213 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: fit the conditions that I was living in. And that 214 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: gave me a lot of room to explore too, come 215 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: with a genuine heart, but to explore how do you 216 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: get along with people being a Buddhist, I mean you 217 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: being a Buddhist no one else, you know, because hand 218 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: there was very few Buddhists. So I had to figure 219 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: out how to do that, you know, and that became 220 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: sort of like a practice. You know. You can have 221 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: your meditation practice, and you can have your sitting, and 222 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: you can have your instruction. But c Quentin gave me 223 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: a new way of thinking about Buddhism. Yeah, it gave 224 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: me a new way of thinking about Buddhism. Because I 225 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: was feeling pressure on one end, the inmates, them, the guards, 226 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: because I had, as I said, was on the crime scene. 227 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: You know, I the murder death, the sergeant burst feel 228 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: happened on San Quentin and now I'm on San Quentin's 229 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: And there was a lot of hatred from the guards, 230 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of a lot of people 231 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: thinking that I was running away from being who I 232 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: was by accepting the idea of using my time to meditate. 233 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: So I had sort of like wall to wall enemy, 234 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: so to speak. So I had to figure out what 235 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: was I going to do if I was going to 236 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: stay with this practice, that mean I'm not going to sugarcoat. 237 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: It was very, very hard and a difficult process, but 238 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: one then I thought, really really open doors for me, 239 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: open many doors for me. As an example, for the 240 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: first to maybe three years maybe five years that I 241 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: became a practitioner, all I was learning from san Quentin 242 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 1: is what not to do. I never felt like I 243 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: was being inspired to learn what to do. What do 244 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: you mean learning what not to do? Well? I get 245 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: I see guys yelling disagreement at guards, and I said, wow, 246 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: this is what I look when I do that. You know, 247 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: I see guards, you know, in a lot of pain 248 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: and suffering, and I said, wow, this guard may be 249 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: going home to his son. I would see violence and 250 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: I say, wow, you know, how can I participate in compassion? 251 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: You know. So it was those kind of experiences that 252 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: I was constantly learning, you know. And as I figured 253 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: my way through these things, people start calling me a 254 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: real serious practitioner, and I never took serious to that. 255 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: What my whole trip was is to find the gates. 256 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: That was just gonna open me up to understanding what 257 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: compassion and how compassionate works inside a prison system. M 258 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: And it was hard. It was hard. It was very hard, 259 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: you know. I was confronted with a lot of violence. 260 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: I was in the shoe unit, security housing unit, and yeah, yeah, 261 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: they put long words to it to deny what it is. 262 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: And a lot of people were in there for serious things, 263 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, murder, The saw serious stuff, you know. And 264 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: one of the things that broke me through because I 265 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: keep talking about opening gates and opening doors. What's the 266 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: first story I wrote called scars And this is a 267 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: if you're refinding freedom story about inmates. And I noticed 268 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: the scars and whips on their back and I've never 269 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: seen those before, but I had my own, you know, 270 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: because they were popping iron lifting weights in the middle 271 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: of this hot sun they just stuck out, you know. 272 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: They were whips. They were not just scars. They were 273 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: serious whips. And I just had to figure out, why 274 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: did the hell did you get these things? You know? 275 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: And they all told me. But what got me more 276 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: than anything, more than the story, was the expression they 277 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: gave to the story. It was like a proud thing 278 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: to have these scars and whips. It was to say 279 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: that I did that been there before. And I realized 280 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: I had my own. I had my own. And I 281 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: looked at my my hand where I remember the councilors 282 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: made us compete while I was a jew a now 283 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: and they will put the s agree between our two thumbs, 284 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: and they waited to see who could stay there the longest. 285 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: I forgot about that, you know, But then when I 286 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: looked around, I started seeing that. I went to my 287 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: cell and I realized that I have the same thing. 288 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: Let's call and to our telephone number. They'll be monitored 289 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: and recorded. And you know, when I felt like I 290 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: had the same thing, I felt an opportunity to write 291 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: about the same thing. And I wrote the story the scars, 292 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: and somehow the inmates, the prisoners and convicts got a 293 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: hold of that story. I can't remember if I shared 294 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: it with them. Are they just found it somewhere? And 295 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: at first I said, oh my god, what the fund 296 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: did I do here? And I was surprised to realize 297 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: they all accepted that story as the true story of 298 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: their life history. It would told from someone who have 299 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: that own history, and there's just a spirit an acceptance 300 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: to it, you know, by just using certain words, and 301 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, instead of using abuse and neglect and all 302 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: these things, there's other words for it, you know. So 303 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: I understood that the language would be able to give 304 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: me a whole lot of access to people. And like 305 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: you know the trade or you know, you know well 306 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: that will learn all the words that tells you how 307 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: the well. And I had to figure out what was 308 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: the voice of saying Quentin deathro And that's been a 309 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: practice for me ever since. It's not just you learn 310 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: it and you forget about it. It's a it's a 311 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: day to day practice. You were out on the yard 312 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: and you saw these guys and they all had similar 313 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: scars and similar life stories. You had the language of 314 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: Buddhism to deal with that history. Did you share that 315 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: with the guys that were out there? Were there other 316 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: guys out there that were Buddhist practitioners, and they look 317 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: at you like you were strange that you have this. 318 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: I had never known a Buddhist practitioner on those yards 319 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: back then. I've known people who would meditate, you know, 320 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: but I never knew them take the practitioner acceptance in 321 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: parliament ceremonies and you know the others as a way 322 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: of changing their whole life cycle. It was just me 323 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: jive talking talking, you know, directly to their stars and 324 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: directly to all of our egos. And there was something 325 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: that I looked at and realized I found the permission 326 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: to write about prison in Buddhism. It was something that 327 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: I really really began to realize my purpose, My purpose 328 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: for being here is to be more of an engage Buddhists, 329 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: not so much on the academic side, but more so 330 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: as a practitioner, as someone who's engaged in kind of 331 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: find the joy and happiness within. You know, each of us, 332 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: you know, and you know family does. Writing to family, 333 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: writing to our nephews and our sons and kids was 334 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: a real experience, and I thought a lot of us 335 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: didn't realize how fortunate we were. And I need to 336 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 1: say this also, I was one of the first people 337 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: who dealt with me. I dealt with me, and the 338 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: only way I could have this is in retrospect. The 339 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: only way I could have done what I was doing 340 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: was I had to learn how to accept it for 341 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: myself too, And that was the heart of my practice. 342 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: That's when I was taught trained to practice from and 343 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: I had here's to sit with, you know, and I 344 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: sit with those years now. You talked about your ego 345 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: and when you came into prison, this is five ten 346 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: years prior to Sergeant Birksfield being murdered. You admitted to 347 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: being angry and bitter and frustrated based on the life 348 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: that you had been handed. How did Buddhism fundamentally change 349 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: you and how you dealt with your own ego? Um, 350 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: I remember going to trial and let's call and to 351 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: our telephone numbers will be monitored and recorded. This is 352 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: just one way it could be in other ways. What 353 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: stands out for me? You know, I learned how to cry, 354 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: you know, I've never did. I learned how to here 355 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: the tears and other people's speech in their language. So 356 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: on come up to me and says, my mother just died, 357 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: But it ain't no thing, you know. I had a 358 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: lot of years with her, you know, No you didn't, 359 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, because you're living with her now. And I 360 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: was able to learn how to express that and have 361 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: the respect us telling that, saying that, and then I 362 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: felt with you know what, I felt responsible for all 363 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: this stuff. Now, what I was learning was teaching me 364 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: how to become a serious practitioner without understanding that. That's 365 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: where I was heading. When you started investigating Buddhism and 366 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: the practice of it, were their resources outside of what 367 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: melody irma child gave you. Because it's just thirty years ago. 368 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: So was there a Buddhist chaplin there that could help 369 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: you learn? There was no such thing as a Buddhist teacher. 370 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: And saying Quentin, you know, religion and San Quentin and 371 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: I think it's probably another prison too, is very territorial. Catholicism, Islam, 372 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: these faiths, you know, our well established will inside the 373 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: prison system. Buddhism was like, where is this going? You know, 374 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: is this a real religion? We're not going to allow 375 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: you to practice this in a formal setting because it's not. 376 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: If they don't fit the bill of being a real religion, 377 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: they didn't recognize that. They didn't acknowledge it. They didn't 378 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: do any of those things. A good example it would 379 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: be when I had my empowerment ceremony, when my teacher 380 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: representate came to give me my power and ceremony, they 381 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: kept me behind a glass window. All the rituals and 382 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: all the little things that you would need to go 383 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: through it in power ceremony, we're not given to us. 384 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: They didn't acknowledge that. But now if I wanted to 385 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: get baptized, they escort you right outside the prison and 386 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: right out the adjustment center and you'll go be bathtime somewhere. 387 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: But you know what, I did not mind those things. 388 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: I wasn't smart enough or I didn't take my practice 389 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: serious enough to see the discrimination in that. And one 390 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: of the reasons why I didn't do that because refreshe 391 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: didn't give me no excuse. He wouldn't allow no excuse, 392 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: so I didn't. I just gave up on you know, 393 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: whatever frustrations I had with that, you wasting time? You 394 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: know his attitude was you wasting time? How did the 395 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: guys with you on the East block take to the 396 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: fact that you were you like a Buddhist elder to 397 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: them or did they find did they accept you for 398 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: who you were? They have this saying, and I may 399 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: have interpreted the wrong way, so forgive me if I have. 400 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: But I always heard that term kill the Buddha, you know, 401 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: at some point you have to kill the Buddha, and 402 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: kind of understand it. But maybe I did not understand. 403 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: But I definitely used it, you know, I definitely put 404 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: my own twist to it. And what I mean by 405 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: putting my twist to it was that I stopped trying 406 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: to act like a Buddhist, the Buddhas that I would 407 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: try to imitate, sitting down, the one that would, you know, 408 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: hold his fingers together and try to meditate, the one 409 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: who has some kind of deep realization, the kind of 410 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: people who thought they found enlightenment. Stopped being those people. 411 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: I stopped reading the books. I was left on my own. 412 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: And I think what my teacher taught me is how 413 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: to be on my own in a way of bringing 414 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: out a more number of people in the community together, 415 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: you know. So it was me learning how to not 416 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: talk like a Buddhist and be a Buddhist not having 417 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: all the academic skills. Readings to your Buddhists I mean 418 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: those are pitfalls. All those are which gets you in trouble. 419 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: You know, I was keeping my friendships, that's all. I 420 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: was trying to keep people from going to the whole, 421 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: are being um um extracted from their selves, are made 422 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: or shot all those things. Is the Buddhist community grown 423 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: in the last thirty years? Oh yeah, Can you tell 424 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: me a little bit about it? You know, I think 425 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: the ministration has most ministrations in our nation's history. You 426 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: have sixty seconds remaining accepted the idea that it helps, 427 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: it helps the overall institution to have or to have 428 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: someone coming diet to prison and teach people how to 429 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: sit and meditate. It's been a benefit to the prison administrations, 430 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: at least the ones I know to be able to 431 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: do that. So it's it's a it's an important aspect 432 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: of understanding what helps prisoners and prisoners find peace, find 433 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: an inner peace and are not assault guards or anything 434 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: like that. Of course, big, it's a huge, It is 435 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: very huge. Now do you find Buddhist communities in almost 436 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: every prison? Okay, So the group that you are talking 437 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: to right now, Black Buddhist Conference. It's sponsored by Trumbala, 438 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: who is the publisher of your book Finding Freedom, which 439 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: has got re released, and they'd like me to talk 440 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: specifically to how Buddhism plays an important role in the 441 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: lives of a lot of Black Americans who have been 442 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: incarcerated or who are there now, you know, and what 443 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: I know my own experience is, and it's all been 444 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: a set equipment and it's mostly all been on death rolls. 445 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: So I don't have a lot of what this panel 446 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: might have as their own experiences. But for me, I 447 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: think Buddhism and let's call and you our telephone numbers 448 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: they're been monitoring any did the relationship to being black 449 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: and the Buddhists are being black and a teacher is territorial. 450 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: I've never ever saw a teacher of African descent teaching 451 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: Buddhism in prison. It is unheard of in my own experience. 452 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: But you know, I'm isolated, you know, I'm in I'm 453 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: on death row, and I'm isolated. The dim units in 454 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: Santa Quentin's death role are very isolated. The panel that 455 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: this is being presented to, they are both black Buddhist 456 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: practitioners but also non practitioners. So people who may be 457 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: identified with Islam or may be identified with Christianity, can 458 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: Buddhism or practices they are in add to their home 459 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: religious practices. I think, so I don't see why not. 460 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know all the tenants of these 461 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: various faith but I can't imagine someone saying that I 462 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: need to cultivate compassion. I need to be of some 463 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: service too to quell violence wherever I am. I shouldn't 464 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: have a problem understanding the nature of suffering and where 465 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: that leads, you know. I can't imagine those various tenants 466 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: not playing a part in all face, you know. But 467 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: if you get hooked on the name, you leave a 468 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: lot of people behind, no matter what faith you're in. Yeah, 469 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: the name is a hook to me, you know. And 470 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: I started using that phrase when I was talking to 471 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: you earlier about killing the Buddha, that the name Buddha 472 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: is a hook. It creates confusion, you know, and it 473 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: creates chaos and it analysis. You know. It's truth to me. 474 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: It feels like when you it was these terms, you're 475 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: using something against people attraction. Let's call and to our 476 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: telephone number. They'll be monitored and recorded. Marca Luis King 477 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: walked with all face, And I actually no problem with that, 478 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: you know, and no one seen a problem with that. 479 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: Probably there all I did, but no one else, you know. 480 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: But we can walk together, you know, we can sit together. 481 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: You know, we can use our own particular practices to 482 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: make the world better, you know, to suffering. Well, Ben, 483 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: you know that's that's perfect to me. And you know 484 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: I was raised in a Baptist church when I was small, 485 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: so um, I tried my best to get out of 486 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: that place. Um because I was young, and I just 487 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, I like any kid back in back then, 488 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: way back then, you know, you rather ride your bike, 489 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, you know, you were to play marbles 490 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: for something. You getting all the press stuff and they're 491 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: putting all that grease on your face and you're sitting 492 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: sitting with all these old people and something. You see 493 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: it every time you walk in his church. You see 494 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: a cat. It's sitting right down the aisle. I didn't 495 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: want that. That was not my bike, you know, on 496 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: my my skateboard. Yeah. Yeah, So so we talked about 497 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: your book Finding Freedom then rereleased this past year, and 498 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: then David Chef's book, the biography The Buddhist on Death 499 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: Row was released several months ago. Such a beautiful book, 500 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: and then the new anthology Black and Buddhist. So how 501 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: did it feel for you to see growing interest in 502 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: the experience of black Buddhists around the country. I think 503 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. 504 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: I remember a while back, short of when I was 505 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: only in an angry state, and I said, you know what, 506 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: if you know, I went to my teacher, I went 507 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: to Lisa, one of the senior students of Reproche, and 508 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: I said, you know what, why isn't there a black Buddhuses? 509 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: You know, how can all these people be reincarnated as Asian? 510 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: You know that? How is that true? That will make 511 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: sense to me? You know, do you mean to tell 512 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: me everybody who has something that created a recycle of 513 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: life as we would call it a rebirth, they all 514 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: ended up being Tibettan or Chinese, or Japanese or Asian? 515 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: How does that happen? What do you guys get that from? 516 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: That'll make that'll drive with me and for me, I 517 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: used to just come straight out with it, you know. Yeah, 518 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: And she said to me, she said, now I'll never 519 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: forget it. She said. Market was the key was a 520 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: Buddhist Malcolm Max was a Buddhist. This is where you 521 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: find your teachers. Your teachers are not you know, always 522 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: to betting. They are the community leaders in your community. 523 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: There are the black teachers who teaches kids. They are there. 524 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: They just don't get hooked up on the name Buddhists. 525 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: You hear Buddhists because that's their name and that's their faith. 526 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: You know in Asia are somewhere else. But trust me, 527 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: they're there and they're practicing and their teaching and that 528 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: just that was a life change in the moment for me. 529 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,919 Speaker 1: You have sixty seconds remaining because I needed to hear 530 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: that answer. If I had not known that answer, I 531 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: would always have hiccups about what's going on with this? 532 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: You know, So to go back to what you're saying, 533 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: I think it's a good thing, really do. Yeah, we 534 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: know the folks at Shambala and the Summits host Ioya 535 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: Sunday wanted to express their gratitude because this is awesome. 536 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: It's going to be an amazing event. And uh, I 537 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: wish you could be there physically, but maybe next year 538 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: maybe will have you you know, the event and physically 539 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: be there. What do you say that would be great? 540 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: That would be great but if I can ask them 541 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: for a favor, you know, I would say to them, 542 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: if it's all possible, I would love for that talent 543 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: to bring as much of what they're speaking to inside 544 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: San Quentin. I think that would be a very powerful statement. 545 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean, Sarah Coultin has two cable stations that are 546 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: specifically used to address or to speak out of other 547 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: places that it makes may not be allowed to go, 548 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: ye not have priv to have access. You know, if 549 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: you are in isolation confinement, they have church services on 550 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: that station. Uh, if you're an education and you can't 551 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: get to you know, a school or school, you know 552 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: the prison school house, they run school via television the 553 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: cable station. And to have this African community of Buddhists 554 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: and non Buddhistists appear on those stations would say a 555 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: whole lot to the benefit. That is a huge step. 556 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: Let's call and your telephone number will be monitored and recorded. Well, 557 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: I'll work with them. I'll do what I can do 558 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: to help help facilitate that. Absolutely, absolutely, that would be great. Okay, 559 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: you got it, you done, did good, and I ain't 560 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: blown smoke, I ain't feel alright. Alright, Let's call and 561 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 1: to our telephone number will be monitored and recorded. Bolly oh, 562 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: he's telling me you have to go now, Okay, so 563 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: all right here, alright, alright, okay. Next week we'll hear 564 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: from Jarvis's lead attorney at Kirkland and Ellis, as well 565 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: as from some of you who have reached out to 566 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: Jarvis directly through our hotline with questions and curiosities. Special 567 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: thanks to Pamela Ayo Yatunde. Check out her latest book 568 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: Black and Buddhist. What Buddhism can teach Us about race, resilience, 569 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: transformation and Healing. This episode was written and produced by 570 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: Donna Fazzari and myself Cornicle. Our theme song sentenced is 571 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: compliments of the band Stick Figure from their album Set 572 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: in Stone. Stu Sternbach composed the original music. Nate Defort 573 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: did the sound design. For more information on Jarvis and 574 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: to find out how you can follow his case and 575 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: support his cause, please visit free Jarvis dot org. For 576 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 577 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 578 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: favorite shows.