WEBVTT - The 5:00 AM Call 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.040 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Warning, 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:09.080 this episode contains discussion of child sexual abuse. Listener discretion 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:21.599 is advised. I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family Secrets, 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.520 the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:27.840 keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:34.000 My guest today is actress and playwright Mattie Corman, whose 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:39.120 one woman show Accidentally Brave, premiered off Broadway in the spring. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:45.160 Of Mattie's is a story of love and resilience when 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.199 faced with a bombshell of a secret. Her bravery strikes 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:55.000 me as anything but accidental. So in many ways, this 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:56.880 is a story that has a before and and after, 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.639 you know, like a really bright line. Let's start by 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:06.640 talking about the before. Okay, you married your best person. Yes, 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.160 it was a real romance, a real love. I was 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.640 swept away and madly in love and had my eyes open, thinking, 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.640 this is a really good man and a person who 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.560 really wants to be a partner, a person who more 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.720 than more than I. At the time, I was really 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.360 ready to be a dad and a husband. I had 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:34.200 been married before, actually, which I forget sometimes because it 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.679 was like a baby marriage. To my first boyfriend, my 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.520 college sweetheart, and that did not work and we got 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.560 a baby, marriage and a baby divorce. So it was 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.480 very I don't want to, you know, drag him at all, 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.560 but I knew walking down the aisle that time that 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.639 something was up, that it was probably not a good idea, 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.440 but the invitations had been sent, the dress was on, 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.680 let's do it. But I didn't feel that way this time. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:06.560 I felt very, very good, safe, happy. How did you 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.440 and chase me? I wish it were a simple story, 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.840 but it's a little bit of a twisty road because 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:13.840 we had been He's a little bit older than I 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:18.000 and we had been in the same circles for years. 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.160 He's part of a theater company, started theater company called 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.440 Naked Angels, and they were the really cool kids when 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.359 I was in high school and college, and so I 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.040 kind of knew of him and was around him, but 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.760 we weren't friends until later. Um he had come to 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.040 a screening of a movie I was in with someone 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.520 he was dating. Like we had just kind of cross paths, 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.000 and indeed, I think one of the last auditions he 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.560 was an actor, and then he left acting to become 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.560 a director and I think we ran into each other 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.119 in l A. I mean, I know we ran into 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:56.400 each other, but at one of his final auditions before 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.600 he quit so and I remember thinking was smart and 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.640 funny and cute, and I was unavailable at the time anyway. 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:08.919 But then we really met when I was single and 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.640 living in l A but shooting a movie in New York. 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.160 It was the final night of filming, and I went 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.280 out with them a very good friend of mine, and 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.080 she took me to see a play that her friend 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.640 had written, this great play, This is Our Youth. Kenny 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.480 Lonergan and Jas had directed the play next door, and 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.440 it was I believe it was Kenny's opening night, it 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.440 was Jason's closing night. So everybody ended up at the 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:39.280 west Bank and which is a great New York City restaurant. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.160 It was so romantic and a great New York City 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.200 theater night. And there was this guy and I spoke 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:50.480 to him and I thought he was adorable and funny 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:52.720 and smart, and I was going back to l A 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.080 in a few days. So it turned out he was 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.800 going to work in l A in a couple of weeks, 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.320 and we had mutual friends, and I made sure that 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:08.000 I was where he was. Um, that was intentional. After 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:13.240 a flirtatious game of basketball, yes basketball, in a friend's backyard, 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.760 Mattie and Jason go out on a date and within 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.320 a week they're crazy about one another. Jason returns to 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.640 New York and for a while they navigate the bicoastal 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:29.680 divide as. The romance becomes serious very quickly. Then about 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:35.559 six months in, he said, somebody's gotta move someplace, and 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.120 my whole family. I'm from New York. I love New York, 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:43.560 and I thought, well, I'll come there. I kept my 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.880 place in l A just in case, but I moved 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:50.839 in with him after six months. And then you began 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:56.200 to build this great, big, beautiful life together. Yep. We 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:01.520 had a big, fun, outdoor, hippie kind of wedding with 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:06.919 lots of friends and family celebrating. We had basically a 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.440 honeymoon baby. My mom had had a really hard time 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.560 getting pregnant, and I grew up with that story, so 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.200 I was very aware. I thought it could take years, 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.640 and it took. It was very after school special, like 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.000 it was the first, like the first, the first try. 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.480 So we had a baby before our first anniversary, and 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.920 that's my daughter, and a couple of years later, I 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.039 thought maybe I'd only have one because it was so 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.240 all encompassing and amazing and difficult and fantastic and all 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.840 of it. And then when she was about three and 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.840 a half, I thought, Okay, well I want another. I'll 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:48.640 be so much better at it this time, and i 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.320 won't be so scared, and I'll be the cool mom 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.320 with my four year old. And then another on my hip. 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.800 And then God laughed and I got pregnant with twins, 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.120 so there was no There was no cool mom with 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.400 a baby on my hip. But I had the boys. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.280 I had twin boys who are about four and a 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:13.560 half years younger than my daughter. Before the twins are born, 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.479 Maddie and Jason moved out of Manhattan and to a 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.960 Westchester suburb. Their life in that suburb is idyllic. They 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.120 have the nice house, three great kids, a cat, and 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.960 a dog, and as Maddie calls it in her One 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:32.400 Woman show, she has a semi great career. Life just 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:37.040 kind of took over. I had been not really a 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.440 kid actress, but a young actress, you know, starting in 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.920 my teenage years, so I had been working. But when 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.320 I had my all these kids. My husband was a 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.799 very successful director and producer, and so he knew about 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.200 his jobs more in advance, and he was well compensated. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.640 So I was very lucky to be able to say, well, 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:03.520 let me be home. Because he was a TV director, 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.160 his work was all encompassing. I mean the hours are 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.560 sometimes eighteen hour days. Sometimes he was out of town, 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.440 but even when he was in working in New York, 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.480 it was important to me that there be a point person, 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.840 you know, not just a point person, but that I 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.120 got to be there and go to the school events, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.720 and go to the doctor's visits and be on the 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.120 book sale committee. And I loved it. And I missed 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:33.640 my career, but I was lucky enough to be able 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.320 to keep a toe in, you know, and do do 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:41.280 work here and there. And it was really busy. There 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:46.040 was and still is dogs and cats and and friends 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.119 and kids. And I find a lot of twin moms 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.520 are really organized, and it was like they were chosen 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.720 from above. I'm not so. I always felt like I 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.000 was forgetting and I did, you know, forget somebody's soccer 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.240 game or something. Um. And that is not to say 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.360 that my husband was checked out at all. He would 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.400 be around on the weekends and coaching the kids teams 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:13.440 and volunteering at the local churches and temples, doing Midnight Run, 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:18.240 which is bringing food to the homeless. And we were happy, 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:23.080 but certainly distracted. Our life was mainly about the kids, 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:26.960 and that was what we both chose, you know. That 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.360 was it was an unwritten agreement in our marriage, but 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.360 one that I think we both we're fine with, which 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.480 is they're going to take center stage and we are 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:41.720 going to work around that. It's an absorbing family life. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.200 Years go by in a happy, busy blur. By the 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.720 summer of the twins have finished fifth grade, Mattie's daughter 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.720 is a teenager taking driver's Head, and Maddie had a 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.200 guest spot on a TV show. Everything as business as 0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:00.800 usual until very early one morning at five am. Maddie 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.480 is driving to set when she received a phone call. 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:09.600 Her daughter is hysterical. On the other line. My daughter 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.079 was sixteen. I'd been a mom for sixteen years. I've 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.880 heard all kinds of screams and yells, and you just know, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.600 as a mother, I was already a warrior. But I 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.640 knew the minute I heard the pitch of her scream 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:28.240 that this was different. And really bad. And already, when 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.680 you're sixteen year old calls you at five am, that's 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.560 not normal. But she was screaming and saying that the 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.800 police were in the house, and I couldn't. I couldn't 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:42.199 understand what she was saying. And I couldn't even comprehend 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.439 that police were in our house, let alone why they 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.320 were there. And I could also hear that my boys, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.680 who were eleven at the time, were with her, and 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.560 they were I could hear them crying. And even right now, 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.080 I feel like my face is going to fall off 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.000 even just talking about this and remembering this moment, because 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.079 it was the moment that all of our lives changed forever. 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:10.959 This was the moment of discovery. And um, I told her, 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.040 I have to hang up and call Daddy and find 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.840 out what's going on. Just hold on, hold on, hold on. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.320 And I didn't pull over like I I you know, 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:22.920 when I tell the story, people are like and then 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.440 you turned the car around. I didn't. I wish that 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.400 I could say I did, but I just kind of 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.720 kept driving to work. I somewhat left my body, but 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.839 kept driving and I called my husband, who didn't pick up, 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.200 and I called again and he picked up, and he 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:41.319 didn't even sound like my husband, my person, my partner, 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.240 my best friend. He sounded very formal and weird, and 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.240 he said the police are here. I said, yeah, I 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:50.199 know what what's going on? And he said, I can't 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:55.360 really talk right now. And I just couldn't understand or 0:10:55.400 --> 0:11:00.000 imagine what was going on. I think that the police 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.560 said they want to talk to you, and someone got 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.520 on the phone and said we we're searching devices or 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.400 your husband's computer or something. And all I could think 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:13.920 was I need to get my kids out of that house. 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:15.880 I need my kids to not be there. And I 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.640 was close to Brooklyn at this point, which is not 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:23.200 close to my house. I called my daughter back and said, 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.240 hold on, I don't know what's happening. What's happening, and 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.200 I said, just hold tight, baby, hold on. And in 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.319 a very very strange I guess one could say stroke 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:39.000 of luck. My brother was staying. He doesn't normally live 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.600 in this house, but he was staying two doors down 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.240 from where our house was. And I'm very close with 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.480 my brother, and my brother is very close with my kids. 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.560 My brother and his amazing wife had just had their 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:57.040 first baby. I mean, she was maybe a week old, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.400 maybe not even she was probably ten days old actually, 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:02.920 And I called him and said, you have to go 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.760 get my kids and bring them over to your house. 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.040 And of course he was going why, and I said, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:09.880 I don't know, but you have to do that right now. 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:11.760 I can't talk to you. You have to go do it. 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.280 What was going through your mind in this discovery moment? 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.400 Nothing was going through my mind except I don't understand. 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.640 I don't understand. I don't understand. Were there are scenarios 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:29.600 that were running through your mind, like maybe it's tax evasion, yes, 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:34.600 or gambling or something. And then I believe I called 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.440 back my husband, and you know, I heard something about 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.920 they're saying they found some files that are illegal, and 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.680 and that was the first time my mind thought about 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.880 pornography maybe, And I still thought, well, that has to 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.840 be a mistake, even if that is what they found. 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.200 Looking back with the eyes that I have now, and 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.960 I've heard many many people's stories that are similar, different 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:10.440 but similar, I had no idea. I'm embarrassed still deciding 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.000 the lots of shame about lots of things. But pornography 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.040 was not a part of my marriage, and it was 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.400 not a thing where I had caught my husband multiple 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:22.880 times watching pornography. If you had said to me, do 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:27.640 you think your husband watches pornography? I would have said probably, 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.840 you know, when he's away. But like, it didn't even 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.600 occur to me that this was something which turned out 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.920 to be a very big issue for him. Mattie's father 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.360 also lives nearby in Westchester, and he takes Jace to 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.920 a lawyer and then drives him to Brooklyn. Maddie leaves 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.360 work early, citing a family emergency, and then she goes 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.560 to meet Jase on a street corner near the set. 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.480 It wasn't until I looked at his face and he 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.760 didn't even look like himself, and he looked away that 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:04.320 I realized this was not a mistake. I mean, obviously 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.280 it was a mistake that he viewed any kind of 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.200 child pornography, but it was not a mistake like, oh, 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.840 they got the wrong guys, something got the wrong guy, 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:17.160 or my kid accidentally downloaded something. Yeah. It's kind of 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.000 amazing in those moments, the way that in you know, 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.560 moments of a lot of trauma, the way the body 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.400 and the psyche kind of take over in some way 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.840 to protect us, Like you went on autopilot. You were 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.760 definitely just dissociated. You kept on driving, you were going 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.200 to go to work. I did my work. I mean, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.360 I haven't ever watched that TV show, but I shot scenes. Yeah, 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.280 I shot two scenes in a completely altered state. And 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.080 you took care of your kids. You did what was 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.360 necessary to get your kids safe and out of the house. 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.920 But I just think that there's this way, and I 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.440 I'm familiar with it myself, and and I've heard it 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:58.240 in many stories where there's this kind of protection that 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.440 happens for a little it's you know, shocked is a 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.600 form of protection. Yeah, it's like a biological survival instinct. 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:12.560 Within about twenty six hours, the story becomes public. Maddie 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.640 and her family are not even given the opportunity to 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.160 have a secret or to reckon with it privately. What 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:23.800 ordinarily would be nobody's business is swiftly in the public sphere, 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.920 leaving the family unable to properly or quietly digest what 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.840 has happened. I was also worried about him. We didn't 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.360 know it was going to become public. It was as 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:39.480 we were sitting in a diner right after court, and 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.680 I was still digesting like I said, I hadn't even 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.520 really gotten what had happened and who he was and 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.640 what this is and is this a thing? And what? 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.120 And are my kids okay? Are they you know? Where 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.240 are they? Are they all right? Do I go to court? 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.160 Do I stay with them? Who are we telling? Um? 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.200 How is he going to go to work? And then 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.360 we're just sitting with these lawyers who are brand new 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.800 people in my life, talking about things I never thought 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:14.200 i'd talk about, like jail time for my husband and pornography, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.280 and it's all swirling. And I looked down at my 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.440 phone because I'm constantly texting and calling my children, and there's, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.880 you know, a banner alert, and it's on Facebook, it's 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.560 on USA Today, It's it's on the local patch you 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.480 know there, it's everywhere. So that opened up a whole 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.080 new way of having to deal with the crisis, which 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.200 was the press showed up at our house. I'm not 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.360 a famous person and neither is he, but we're well 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.880 known enough and this is salacious enough story that the 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.040 press was there, and that was another thing that I 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:53.320 had to keep my kids safe from. And I did 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.880 not want my husband to kill himself, so I made 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.040 him promise that he wouldn't kill himself. But I'll so 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.600 felt like I had to keep an eye on him 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:07.480 as well in those early days. And there's so many 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:12.320 layers of feelings that might seem like they would contradict 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.240 each other, but of course they don't. That that you're experiencing, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.520 both in those early days and then for a long 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:24.720 time to come and perhaps even forever, like ten minutes ago. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.240 But in the early days it wasn't what I would 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.639 I think had I written this story and not lived it, 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:33.399 I would have said, well, no, you would have been 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.639 feeling that. And when I started writing my story and 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:44.000 we did it as a play, my brilliant producer Darryl Roth, said, well, 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.640 it's not really believable that you got up and went 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:48.440 to work the next day. I was like, I know, 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:50.880 but I did, you know, because I thought it would 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.920 be a secret and I had to finish my job, 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.159 and I had a little part of me that also went, um, 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.280 I'm probably going to have to be the breadwinner. There 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.760 was just that's what I did. And the anger that 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.040 I felt didn't come when I thought it would come, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.240 and the all of that. It was so it was 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.760 such a crisis and such a catastrophe trauma. I wasn't 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.680 thinking about all the things one should probably even think. 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.840 You know, that all came later and continues to come. 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.760 There are real victims of I want to be really 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:29.040 clear that I understand that I was traumatized, my kids 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.480 were traumatized, but that does not take anything away from 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.320 the children that are traumatized in this kind of pornography. 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.960 That was not at the forefront of my mind in 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.760 that moment that came later, like well, what does this 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.720 mean to me as a woman? Was it? What does 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.199 it mean? Are my kids safe? There were just so 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.600 many things, but it was an emergency in the beginning, 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.840 and even even in the following weeks and months. You know, 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.280 kids and dogs and cats don't stop having me needs 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.879 because there's a crisis, And so I was trying to 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.280 process a lot of things at the same time that 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:12.159 there was, you know, a wisdom teeth removal and kids 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:16.480 starting school, and bills that needed to be paid and 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.280 all these things. In the beginning, it was just what's 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.080 right in front of me, and how can I make 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:38.439 sure we get through today. We'll be right back in 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.920 the midst of all this. Jase loses a number of jobs. 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.600 In the midst of all this, friends come forward, so 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.720 I'm saying absolutely the right thing, and others not so much. 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.680 And in the midst of all this, someone important appears 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:59.000 in Maddie's life, someone she considers to be an angel. 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:03.600 I'm not a big fan of the New York post 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:08.520 um nor what they've written about uh me and many 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.520 other people, but I believe that she saw the story. 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.119 And we have a mutual friend. I don't say her 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:19.720 name because she's very famous and because that's her story 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.960 to tell. But somehow she contacted this mutual friend and said, 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.240 I think you know the wife. And she had her 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.919 own version of this, nothing to do with this particular 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.719 acting out, but her husband was a sex addict, and 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.040 she recognized some kind of addiction that I didn't even 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:41.320 know was something we were talking about. But whatever it was, 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:46.520 she had the compassion and the experience to read a story, 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.160 a headline and say, there's a family behind that headline, 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.400 there's some people in real trouble, some people who are 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:59.480 really hurting and scared and lonely and afraid. And she 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:05.960 contacted me, and I was being contacted by everyone under 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.440 the sun, and I didn't really want to talk to anyone, 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.480 but something in me had a feeling. And I didn't 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.600 know her story, but something in me had a feeling 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:22.000 that I should take that call and speaking to a 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.760 stranger but who had some experience, strength and hope around 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.080 what I was going through. It did save my life. 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.720 I'm not being hyperbolic. It absolutely saved my life. It 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.720 was just so complicated and it was so lonely and 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:40.800 so terrifying, and to just have someone go it's going 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.119 to be okay. I kept saying, no, no, no, but 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.639 my story is different. I'm telling you it's going to 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.800 be okay, and your kids are going to be okay, 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:53.560 and maybe even your husband's going to be okay. And 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.600 just hearing those words would have been enough, but she 0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:59.879 went beyond that, and she gave me names of people 0:21:59.880 --> 0:22:03.040 to call, and she was just there for me in 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:05.600 a way that I don't know how that happened, but 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:09.439 she was my angel. And it's amazing the way that 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.880 within some of the most difficult stories there are these 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:19.280 beautiful stories or these kernels of light and just miracles, really, 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:25.480 and that's certainly just seemed like one Jas goes to 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.720 rehab in Arizona for forty five days, the first two 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.720 weeks of which he and Maddie are not allowed to 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:35.359 speak while he's away. The fallout continues, and a sort 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:39.879 of public excommunication occurs. He's fired at the kids soccer coach, 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.480 removed from his position at the Director's Guild, and their 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:47.480 names are removed in quick succession from several charities and boards. 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.040 At that time, you lived in a relatively small town, 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:56.280 you don't like, very very small suburban town where everyone 0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:00.440 knows everything, which is incredibly comforting and then incredibly horrible 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.520 depending on what's going on. So what role did at 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:09.239 that point did shame play in all of that? Um? 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.240 Did you find yourself, you know, just sort of hiding 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:14.119 or feeling like you didn't want to talk to people, 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:18.680 you didn't want to deal. Oh? Absolutely, the shame was crushing, 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.920 is the only word that comes to mind. Absolutely crushing 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:25.679 in the moments that I had time to feel it, 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:27.680 you know, in some ways I just had to keep 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.679 going with life. But when I had a moment or 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.359 saw someone or made eye contact, yes, the shame was 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:42.000 absolutely staggering. And I had been not even aware of 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:45.359 how much I cared about what other people thought it 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:51.160 was incredibly humbling to be publicly humiliated, and also, what 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.720 is mine and what is my partners? Where is my 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.879 part in that? Why am I ashamed of something that 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:01.960 I didn't do? Butt? How do I not wear this? 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:06.960 And how do I process it privately when everyone's talking 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:09.880 about it, looking at it, asking me, are you staying together? 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.399 Are you breaking up? You know what's going to happen? 0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:15.000 Is he going to jail? You know? I was not 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:18.720 prepared for this. I had been married to this man 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:24.840 for almost twenty years, and what I hadn't noticed along 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:27.879 the way was how much of my identity had become 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:33.000 wrapped up in being his wife and being this family 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:35.840 that we were. And I had lost a lot of 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:39.879 myself And so now who am I? And what am I? 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:43.400 And I was very proud of my marriage. My marriage 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:47.560 looking back had certainly started to fray, and there were certainly, 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:51.240 now that I can look back, there were some signs 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:53.919 that things weren't so well, and my husband had gotten 0:24:53.920 --> 0:25:00.159 progressively more irritable and depressed and distant and romantic. Only 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:04.840 things were off, but we were so great and we 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.280