1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Warning, 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: this episode contains discussion of child sexual abuse. Listener discretion 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: is advised. I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family Secrets, 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: My guest today is actress and playwright Mattie Corman, whose 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: one woman show Accidentally Brave, premiered off Broadway in the spring. 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: Of Mattie's is a story of love and resilience when 9 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: faced with a bombshell of a secret. Her bravery strikes 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: me as anything but accidental. So in many ways, this 11 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: is a story that has a before and and after, 12 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 1: you know, like a really bright line. Let's start by 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: talking about the before. Okay, you married your best person. Yes, 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: it was a real romance, a real love. I was 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: swept away and madly in love and had my eyes open, thinking, 16 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: this is a really good man and a person who 17 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: really wants to be a partner, a person who more 18 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: than more than I. At the time, I was really 19 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: ready to be a dad and a husband. I had 20 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: been married before, actually, which I forget sometimes because it 21 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: was like a baby marriage. To my first boyfriend, my 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: college sweetheart, and that did not work and we got 23 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: a baby, marriage and a baby divorce. So it was 24 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: very I don't want to, you know, drag him at all, 25 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: but I knew walking down the aisle that time that 26 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,639 Speaker 1: something was up, that it was probably not a good idea, 27 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: but the invitations had been sent, the dress was on, 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: let's do it. But I didn't feel that way this time. 29 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: I felt very, very good, safe, happy. How did you 30 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: and chase me? I wish it were a simple story, 31 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: but it's a little bit of a twisty road because 32 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: we had been He's a little bit older than I 33 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: and we had been in the same circles for years. 34 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: He's part of a theater company, started theater company called 35 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: Naked Angels, and they were the really cool kids when 36 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: I was in high school and college, and so I 37 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: kind of knew of him and was around him, but 38 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: we weren't friends until later. Um he had come to 39 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: a screening of a movie I was in with someone 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: he was dating. Like we had just kind of cross paths, 41 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: and indeed, I think one of the last auditions he 42 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: was an actor, and then he left acting to become 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: a director and I think we ran into each other 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 1: in l A. I mean, I know we ran into 45 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: each other, but at one of his final auditions before 46 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: he quit so and I remember thinking was smart and 47 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: funny and cute, and I was unavailable at the time anyway. 48 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: But then we really met when I was single and 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: living in l A but shooting a movie in New York. 50 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: It was the final night of filming, and I went 51 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: out with them a very good friend of mine, and 52 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: she took me to see a play that her friend 53 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: had written, this great play, This is Our Youth. Kenny 54 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: Lonergan and Jas had directed the play next door, and 55 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: it was I believe it was Kenny's opening night, it 56 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: was Jason's closing night. So everybody ended up at the 57 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: west Bank and which is a great New York City restaurant. 58 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: It was so romantic and a great New York City 59 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: theater night. And there was this guy and I spoke 60 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: to him and I thought he was adorable and funny 61 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: and smart, and I was going back to l A 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: in a few days. So it turned out he was 63 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: going to work in l A in a couple of weeks, 64 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: and we had mutual friends, and I made sure that 65 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: I was where he was. Um, that was intentional. After 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: a flirtatious game of basketball, yes basketball, in a friend's backyard, 67 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: Mattie and Jason go out on a date and within 68 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: a week they're crazy about one another. Jason returns to 69 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: New York and for a while they navigate the bicoastal 70 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: divide as. The romance becomes serious very quickly. Then about 71 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:35,559 Speaker 1: six months in, he said, somebody's gotta move someplace, and 72 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: my whole family. I'm from New York. I love New York, 73 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, I'll come there. I kept my 74 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: place in l A just in case, but I moved 75 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: in with him after six months. And then you began 76 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: to build this great, big, beautiful life together. Yep. We 77 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: had a big, fun, outdoor, hippie kind of wedding with 78 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: lots of friends and family celebrating. We had basically a 79 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: honeymoon baby. My mom had had a really hard time 80 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: getting pregnant, and I grew up with that story, so 81 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: I was very aware. I thought it could take years, 82 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: and it took. It was very after school special, like 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: it was the first, like the first, the first try. 84 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: So we had a baby before our first anniversary, and 85 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: that's my daughter, and a couple of years later, I 86 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: thought maybe I'd only have one because it was so 87 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: all encompassing and amazing and difficult and fantastic and all 88 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: of it. And then when she was about three and 89 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: a half, I thought, Okay, well I want another. I'll 90 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: be so much better at it this time, and i 91 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: won't be so scared, and I'll be the cool mom 92 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: with my four year old. And then another on my hip. 93 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: And then God laughed and I got pregnant with twins, 94 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: so there was no There was no cool mom with 95 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: a baby on my hip. But I had the boys. 96 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: I had twin boys who are about four and a 97 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: half years younger than my daughter. Before the twins are born, 98 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: Maddie and Jason moved out of Manhattan and to a 99 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: Westchester suburb. Their life in that suburb is idyllic. They 100 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: have the nice house, three great kids, a cat, and 101 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: a dog, and as Maddie calls it in her One 102 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: Woman show, she has a semi great career. Life just 103 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: kind of took over. I had been not really a 104 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: kid actress, but a young actress, you know, starting in 105 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: my teenage years, so I had been working. But when 106 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: I had my all these kids. My husband was a 107 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: very successful director and producer, and so he knew about 108 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: his jobs more in advance, and he was well compensated. 109 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: So I was very lucky to be able to say, well, 110 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: let me be home. Because he was a TV director, 111 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: his work was all encompassing. I mean the hours are 112 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: sometimes eighteen hour days. Sometimes he was out of town, 113 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: but even when he was in working in New York, 114 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: it was important to me that there be a point person, 115 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, not just a point person, but that I 116 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: got to be there and go to the school events, 117 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: and go to the doctor's visits and be on the 118 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: book sale committee. And I loved it. And I missed 119 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: my career, but I was lucky enough to be able 120 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: to keep a toe in, you know, and do do 121 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: work here and there. And it was really busy. There 122 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: was and still is dogs and cats and and friends 123 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,119 Speaker 1: and kids. And I find a lot of twin moms 124 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: are really organized, and it was like they were chosen 125 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: from above. I'm not so. I always felt like I 126 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: was forgetting and I did, you know, forget somebody's soccer 127 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: game or something. Um. And that is not to say 128 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: that my husband was checked out at all. He would 129 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: be around on the weekends and coaching the kids teams 130 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: and volunteering at the local churches and temples, doing Midnight Run, 131 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: which is bringing food to the homeless. And we were happy, 132 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: but certainly distracted. Our life was mainly about the kids, 133 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: and that was what we both chose, you know. That 134 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: was it was an unwritten agreement in our marriage, but 135 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: one that I think we both we're fine with, which 136 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: is they're going to take center stage and we are 137 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: going to work around that. It's an absorbing family life. 138 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: Years go by in a happy, busy blur. By the 139 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: summer of the twins have finished fifth grade, Mattie's daughter 140 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: is a teenager taking driver's Head, and Maddie had a 141 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: guest spot on a TV show. Everything as business as 142 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: usual until very early one morning at five am. Maddie 143 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: is driving to set when she received a phone call. 144 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: Her daughter is hysterical. On the other line. My daughter 145 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: was sixteen. I'd been a mom for sixteen years. I've 146 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: heard all kinds of screams and yells, and you just know, 147 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: as a mother, I was already a warrior. But I 148 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: knew the minute I heard the pitch of her scream 149 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: that this was different. And really bad. And already, when 150 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: you're sixteen year old calls you at five am, that's 151 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: not normal. But she was screaming and saying that the 152 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: police were in the house, and I couldn't. I couldn't 153 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 1: understand what she was saying. And I couldn't even comprehend 154 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: that police were in our house, let alone why they 155 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: were there. And I could also hear that my boys, 156 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: who were eleven at the time, were with her, and 157 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: they were I could hear them crying. And even right now, 158 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: I feel like my face is going to fall off 159 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: even just talking about this and remembering this moment, because 160 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: it was the moment that all of our lives changed forever. 161 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: This was the moment of discovery. And um, I told her, 162 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: I have to hang up and call Daddy and find 163 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: out what's going on. Just hold on, hold on, hold on. 164 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: And I didn't pull over like I I you know, 165 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: when I tell the story, people are like and then 166 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: you turned the car around. I didn't. I wish that 167 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: I could say I did, but I just kind of 168 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: kept driving to work. I somewhat left my body, but 169 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: kept driving and I called my husband, who didn't pick up, 170 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: and I called again and he picked up, and he 171 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: didn't even sound like my husband, my person, my partner, 172 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: my best friend. He sounded very formal and weird, and 173 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: he said the police are here. I said, yeah, I 174 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: know what what's going on? And he said, I can't 175 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: really talk right now. And I just couldn't understand or 176 00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: imagine what was going on. I think that the police 177 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: said they want to talk to you, and someone got 178 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: on the phone and said we we're searching devices or 179 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: your husband's computer or something. And all I could think 180 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: was I need to get my kids out of that house. 181 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: I need my kids to not be there. And I 182 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: was close to Brooklyn at this point, which is not 183 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: close to my house. I called my daughter back and said, 184 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: hold on, I don't know what's happening. What's happening, and 185 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: I said, just hold tight, baby, hold on. And in 186 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: a very very strange I guess one could say stroke 187 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: of luck. My brother was staying. He doesn't normally live 188 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: in this house, but he was staying two doors down 189 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: from where our house was. And I'm very close with 190 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: my brother, and my brother is very close with my kids. 191 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: My brother and his amazing wife had just had their 192 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: first baby. I mean, she was maybe a week old, 193 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: maybe not even she was probably ten days old actually, 194 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: And I called him and said, you have to go 195 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: get my kids and bring them over to your house. 196 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: And of course he was going why, and I said, 197 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, but you have to do that right now. 198 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: I can't talk to you. You have to go do it. 199 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: What was going through your mind in this discovery moment? 200 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: Nothing was going through my mind except I don't understand. 201 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: I don't understand. I don't understand. Were there are scenarios 202 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: that were running through your mind, like maybe it's tax evasion, yes, 203 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: or gambling or something. And then I believe I called 204 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: back my husband, and you know, I heard something about 205 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: they're saying they found some files that are illegal, and 206 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: and that was the first time my mind thought about 207 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: pornography maybe, And I still thought, well, that has to 208 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: be a mistake, even if that is what they found. 209 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: Looking back with the eyes that I have now, and 210 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: I've heard many many people's stories that are similar, different 211 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: but similar, I had no idea. I'm embarrassed still deciding 212 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: the lots of shame about lots of things. But pornography 213 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: was not a part of my marriage, and it was 214 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: not a thing where I had caught my husband multiple 215 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: times watching pornography. If you had said to me, do 216 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: you think your husband watches pornography? I would have said probably, 217 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, when he's away. But like, it didn't even 218 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: occur to me that this was something which turned out 219 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: to be a very big issue for him. Mattie's father 220 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: also lives nearby in Westchester, and he takes Jace to 221 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: a lawyer and then drives him to Brooklyn. Maddie leaves 222 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: work early, citing a family emergency, and then she goes 223 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: to meet Jase on a street corner near the set. 224 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: It wasn't until I looked at his face and he 225 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: didn't even look like himself, and he looked away that 226 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: I realized this was not a mistake. I mean, obviously 227 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: it was a mistake that he viewed any kind of 228 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: child pornography, but it was not a mistake like, oh, 229 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: they got the wrong guys, something got the wrong guy, 230 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: or my kid accidentally downloaded something. Yeah. It's kind of 231 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: amazing in those moments, the way that in you know, 232 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: moments of a lot of trauma, the way the body 233 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: and the psyche kind of take over in some way 234 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: to protect us, Like you went on autopilot. You were 235 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: definitely just dissociated. You kept on driving, you were going 236 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: to go to work. I did my work. I mean, 237 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: I haven't ever watched that TV show, but I shot scenes. Yeah, 238 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: I shot two scenes in a completely altered state. And 239 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: you took care of your kids. You did what was 240 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: necessary to get your kids safe and out of the house. 241 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: But I just think that there's this way, and I 242 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: I'm familiar with it myself, and and I've heard it 243 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: in many stories where there's this kind of protection that 244 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: happens for a little it's you know, shocked is a 245 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: form of protection. Yeah, it's like a biological survival instinct. 246 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: Within about twenty six hours, the story becomes public. Maddie 247 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: and her family are not even given the opportunity to 248 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: have a secret or to reckon with it privately. What 249 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: ordinarily would be nobody's business is swiftly in the public sphere, 250 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: leaving the family unable to properly or quietly digest what 251 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: has happened. I was also worried about him. We didn't 252 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: know it was going to become public. It was as 253 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: we were sitting in a diner right after court, and 254 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: I was still digesting like I said, I hadn't even 255 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: really gotten what had happened and who he was and 256 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: what this is and is this a thing? And what? 257 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: And are my kids okay? Are they you know? Where 258 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: are they? Are they all right? Do I go to court? 259 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: Do I stay with them? Who are we telling? Um? 260 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: How is he going to go to work? And then 261 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: we're just sitting with these lawyers who are brand new 262 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: people in my life, talking about things I never thought 263 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: i'd talk about, like jail time for my husband and pornography, 264 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: and it's all swirling. And I looked down at my 265 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: phone because I'm constantly texting and calling my children, and there's, 266 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: you know, a banner alert, and it's on Facebook, it's 267 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: on USA Today, It's it's on the local patch you 268 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: know there, it's everywhere. So that opened up a whole 269 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: new way of having to deal with the crisis, which 270 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: was the press showed up at our house. I'm not 271 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: a famous person and neither is he, but we're well 272 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: known enough and this is salacious enough story that the 273 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: press was there, and that was another thing that I 274 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: had to keep my kids safe from. And I did 275 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: not want my husband to kill himself, so I made 276 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: him promise that he wouldn't kill himself. But I'll so 277 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: felt like I had to keep an eye on him 278 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: as well in those early days. And there's so many 279 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: layers of feelings that might seem like they would contradict 280 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: each other, but of course they don't. That that you're experiencing, 281 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: both in those early days and then for a long 282 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: time to come and perhaps even forever, like ten minutes ago. Yeah. Absolutely, 283 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: But in the early days it wasn't what I would 284 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: I think had I written this story and not lived it, 285 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: I would have said, well, no, you would have been 286 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: feeling that. And when I started writing my story and 287 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: we did it as a play, my brilliant producer Darryl Roth, said, well, 288 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: it's not really believable that you got up and went 289 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: to work the next day. I was like, I know, 290 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: but I did, you know, because I thought it would 291 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: be a secret and I had to finish my job, 292 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: and I had a little part of me that also went, um, 293 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm probably going to have to be the breadwinner. There 294 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: was just that's what I did. And the anger that 295 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: I felt didn't come when I thought it would come, 296 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: and the all of that. It was so it was 297 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: such a crisis and such a catastrophe trauma. I wasn't 298 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: thinking about all the things one should probably even think. 299 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: You know, that all came later and continues to come. 300 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: There are real victims of I want to be really 301 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: clear that I understand that I was traumatized, my kids 302 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: were traumatized, but that does not take anything away from 303 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: the children that are traumatized in this kind of pornography. 304 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: That was not at the forefront of my mind in 305 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: that moment that came later, like well, what does this 306 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: mean to me as a woman? Was it? What does 307 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: it mean? Are my kids safe? There were just so 308 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: many things, but it was an emergency in the beginning, 309 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: and even even in the following weeks and months. You know, 310 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: kids and dogs and cats don't stop having me needs 311 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: because there's a crisis, And so I was trying to 312 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: process a lot of things at the same time that 313 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: there was, you know, a wisdom teeth removal and kids 314 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: starting school, and bills that needed to be paid and 315 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: all these things. In the beginning, it was just what's 316 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: right in front of me, and how can I make 317 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: sure we get through today. We'll be right back in 318 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: the midst of all this. Jase loses a number of jobs. 319 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: In the midst of all this, friends come forward, so 320 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying absolutely the right thing, and others not so much. 321 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: And in the midst of all this, someone important appears 322 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: in Maddie's life, someone she considers to be an angel. 323 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm not a big fan of the New York post 324 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: um nor what they've written about uh me and many 325 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: other people, but I believe that she saw the story. 326 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: And we have a mutual friend. I don't say her 327 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: name because she's very famous and because that's her story 328 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: to tell. But somehow she contacted this mutual friend and said, 329 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: I think you know the wife. And she had her 330 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: own version of this, nothing to do with this particular 331 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 1: acting out, but her husband was a sex addict, and 332 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: she recognized some kind of addiction that I didn't even 333 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: know was something we were talking about. But whatever it was, 334 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: she had the compassion and the experience to read a story, 335 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: a headline and say, there's a family behind that headline, 336 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: there's some people in real trouble, some people who are 337 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: really hurting and scared and lonely and afraid. And she 338 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: contacted me, and I was being contacted by everyone under 339 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: the sun, and I didn't really want to talk to anyone, 340 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: but something in me had a feeling. And I didn't 341 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: know her story, but something in me had a feeling 342 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: that I should take that call and speaking to a 343 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: stranger but who had some experience, strength and hope around 344 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: what I was going through. It did save my life. 345 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: I'm not being hyperbolic. It absolutely saved my life. It 346 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: was just so complicated and it was so lonely and 347 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: so terrifying, and to just have someone go it's going 348 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: to be okay. I kept saying, no, no, no, but 349 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: my story is different. I'm telling you it's going to 350 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: be okay, and your kids are going to be okay, 351 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: and maybe even your husband's going to be okay. And 352 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: just hearing those words would have been enough, but she 353 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: went beyond that, and she gave me names of people 354 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: to call, and she was just there for me in 355 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: a way that I don't know how that happened, but 356 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: she was my angel. And it's amazing the way that 357 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: within some of the most difficult stories there are these 358 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: beautiful stories or these kernels of light and just miracles, really, 359 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: and that's certainly just seemed like one Jas goes to 360 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: rehab in Arizona for forty five days, the first two 361 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: weeks of which he and Maddie are not allowed to 362 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: speak while he's away. The fallout continues, and a sort 363 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: of public excommunication occurs. He's fired at the kids soccer coach, 364 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: removed from his position at the Director's Guild, and their 365 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: names are removed in quick succession from several charities and boards. 366 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: At that time, you lived in a relatively small town, 367 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: you don't like, very very small suburban town where everyone 368 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: knows everything, which is incredibly comforting and then incredibly horrible 369 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: depending on what's going on. So what role did at 370 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,239 Speaker 1: that point did shame play in all of that? Um? 371 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: Did you find yourself, you know, just sort of hiding 372 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: or feeling like you didn't want to talk to people, 373 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: you didn't want to deal. Oh? Absolutely, the shame was crushing, 374 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: is the only word that comes to mind. Absolutely crushing 375 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: in the moments that I had time to feel it, 376 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, in some ways I just had to keep 377 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: going with life. But when I had a moment or 378 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: saw someone or made eye contact, yes, the shame was 379 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: absolutely staggering. And I had been not even aware of 380 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: how much I cared about what other people thought it 381 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: was incredibly humbling to be publicly humiliated, and also, what 382 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: is mine and what is my partners? Where is my 383 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: part in that? Why am I ashamed of something that 384 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: I didn't do? Butt? How do I not wear this? 385 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: And how do I process it privately when everyone's talking 386 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: about it, looking at it, asking me, are you staying together? 387 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: Are you breaking up? You know what's going to happen? 388 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: Is he going to jail? You know? I was not 389 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: prepared for this. I had been married to this man 390 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: for almost twenty years, and what I hadn't noticed along 391 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: the way was how much of my identity had become 392 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: wrapped up in being his wife and being this family 393 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: that we were. And I had lost a lot of 394 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: myself And so now who am I? And what am I? 395 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: And I was very proud of my marriage. My marriage 396 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: looking back had certainly started to fray, and there were certainly, 397 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: now that I can look back, there were some signs 398 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: that things weren't so well, and my husband had gotten 399 00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: progressively more irritable and depressed and distant and romantic. Only 400 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: things were off, but we were so great and we 401 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: are the actress and the director who aren't in Hollywood 402 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: we're making it work, and we're still coaching the kids 403 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: teams and look, and I was proud of that. I 404 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: was proud of that part of my identity. We can 405 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: we can give you marriage advice. Look at us, We 406 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: got it and and we're messy. By the way. I 407 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: wasn't even trying to pretend to be perfect. I just 408 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: thought we had something that we actually now I know 409 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: we did have. But there was a big, big secret 410 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: that was there that I didn't see. And so for 411 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: everyone to see that secret at the same time that 412 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: I was seeing it was incredibly shameful. And I also 413 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: I was trying to navigate this without letting my kids 414 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: feel that, but also wanting them to feel their own feelings. 415 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: And I still feel this way, which is, you know, 416 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: renn A Brown says it way better than I do. 417 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: But it's okay to care about what some people think 418 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: the people you love very much. But if you spend 419 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: your time caring about what every single person thinks, you'll 420 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: never get out of bed. Mattie has asked at one 421 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: point to come out to Arizona for family Week at 422 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: the rehabilitation center. She really really does not want to 423 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: do this, but with the help of her daughter, her therapist, 424 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: and her angel, she eventually decides to go. You learn 425 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: while you're there that porn can be as addictive as 426 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: crystal meth, that you know what it actually does to 427 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: the brain, and that addicts are not bad people, they're 428 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: sick people. And and that really is something that in 429 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: getting over your resistance to going to family Week and 430 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: going there and hating it and at the same time, 431 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: you know, going through all of the waves of feelings. Um, oh, 432 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: thank god I went. And you know, it was my 433 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: daughter who actually got me there. My therapist who is 434 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: Goddess who specializes I had switched therapists because also my 435 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: wonderful therapist I had been seeing It's just a lot 436 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: of people aren't versed in this, and it's so scary 437 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: and and I really needed someone who it was not 438 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: going to be shocking. I needed to not absorb anyone 439 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: else's shame just to get to being moderately okay. And 440 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: my therapist was great and actually had trained at and 441 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: had worked at this place Gentle Path in Wickenburg, which 442 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: is part of the meadows where my husband went, and 443 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: so she was just great and she said, you have 444 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: to go, and my Angel said you absolutely have to go. 445 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: It's where her husband had gone and it saved his 446 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: life at family Week, saved her life, and you have 447 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: to go. And I said no. But then my daughter, 448 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: who was sixteen at the time and not thrilled with 449 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: any of this, said to me, well, Mom, didn't you 450 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: take a vow to love dad and sickness and in health? 451 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: And I said yes, and she said, well dad's sick 452 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 1: and she was so clear and clean about it, and 453 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, okay, I'll go. And I'm really it was. 454 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: It was a life changing experience. And the women that 455 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 1: I met in Wickenburg, the other partners wives, were so 456 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: incredible and continue to be my sisters. And I would 457 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: never have had that. I mean, I feel incredibly Again 458 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 1: it's weird to say lucky around this, but I know 459 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: that I am privileged that we I mean, we just 460 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: didn't even think about how much it would cost, and 461 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: it is incredibly expensive. But at the time it was 462 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: like the ship was sinking, just whatever. But to be 463 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: around other people who were going through something similar again 464 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: very different, acting out behaviors, but just looking at each 465 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: other going what and learning that almost every one who's 466 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: married to sex addict finds out about it in a 467 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: really shocking way. It's not usually like, hey, there's something 468 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: I want to tell you. It's usually a big, dark, deep, 469 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: shameful secret that comes out in a really messy, horrible, 470 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: catastrophic way. At least people who wind up at this 471 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: place nobody's there because they're having a little bit of 472 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: a bad day. You also describe, you know, these broken 473 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: husbands who are there, and it's kind of the beginning 474 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: of your getting in touch with your own compassion, because 475 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: these are not trolls. These are decent human beings who 476 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: have done things that are awful, but it doesn't make 477 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: them awful and good men by the way, rabbis, doctors, musicians, sons, fathers, 478 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: and men um that I did spend incredibly authentic intimate 479 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: moments with intimate meaning people were pouring their souls out 480 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: and telling their stories, and I could barely look at 481 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: my own partner, but seeing these men and seeing how 482 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: deeply sorry they were for the hurt that they had caused, 483 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: and seeing that they were smart and funny and kind 484 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: and just decent, which is not what I You know, 485 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: the story that we're told that we hear about the 486 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: names we hear, you know, perverts, sex addicts, sex offenders. 487 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, this is not the men that I saw, 488 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: were not the image that I had, And it was 489 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: the beginning of my ability to feel compassion. The combination 490 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: of me being able to witness other people and also 491 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: hearing from people who could say I too, went to 492 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: a place I never dreamed I would go in the 493 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: throes of a of a really gripping addiction, helped me 494 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: have a glimmer of an idea that this was the 495 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: person who I loved, whose brain had been hijacked. We'll 496 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: be back in a moment with more family secrets. Mattie 497 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: returns home, and soon Jason will too. Parameters are set. 498 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: He will sleep in the guest room, and there will 499 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: be one computer in the house filters on all the devices. 500 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: It's a tenuous time for them all, but also bolstered 501 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: by incredible bits of generosity and wisdom. As one of 502 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: their sons says, it's intense to love someone so much 503 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: and also be really, really out at them. So Jason's 504 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: back home, You're experiencing all of these different waves of feelings. 505 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: You know, you're you're shopping at St. Leonards, the famous 506 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: supermarket that's both in Westchester and in Connecticut for Halloween items. 507 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: And suddenly it occurs to you, maybe it's not okay 508 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: for us to decorate our house for Halloween. Um, maybe 509 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: people won't come and trick or treat at our house. 510 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: And there's this really powerful sense of mourning the loss 511 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: of the way things were, you know, the grief for 512 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: that life that would never be the same as it 513 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: was before that phone call that morning. Yeah, yeah, that's right. 514 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: And no matter what, if I choose to stay with 515 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: this person, there will be a very big loss of 516 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: the life that I have known and that we have known. 517 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: And if I leave this person, there will also be 518 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: a very big loss. Right, So there's going to be lost, 519 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: there's no getting around it. And there's only so much 520 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: I can do to protect my kids from that. You know, 521 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: there's some part of me still that is so resistant 522 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: to change, and and I project that onto my kids, like, 523 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: oh no, but what if we have to move? That 524 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: will be so upsetting, you know. And it's like I 525 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: never think about the good things that might come from that. 526 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: I just don't want them to have to absorb any 527 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: more trauma. And change to me sometimes means trauma and loss. Eventually, 528 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: Jason moves out of the guest room and back into 529 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: the master bedroom. Things improve, not in some sort of cinematic, 530 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: smooth narrative arc, but rather it fits and starts. One morning, 531 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: Maddie wakes up in a profound state of rage, and 532 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: this moment marks a turning point. Jason has apologized before, 533 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: but this time he exp us as his full empathy 534 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: and awareness of what he's done to her in all this. 535 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: Shortly after this powerful moment, Maddie decides she wants to 536 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: acknowledge that while this is not the same marriage it 537 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: used to be, it's still a marriage. She hadn't been 538 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: wearing her wedding ring for some time, and now she 539 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: wants a new one. They go to Soho and wander 540 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: through jewelry stores, but nothing feels right. They're about to 541 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: let it go and head home when Maddie stops to 542 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: look at a street vendor who has jewelry on display. 543 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: Something about this person seems magical. He asks her what 544 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: she's looking for. I said, um, I want something unique 545 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: and beautiful and delicate but strong, nothing like he probably had, 546 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean mostly had, like peace sign rings and you 547 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: know Kitty cat rings, and and he said hold on, 548 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: and he reached under not on the main tray where 549 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: everything was, this little kind of secret drawer, and he 550 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: took out this ring and it was so beautiful and 551 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: it was unique and delicate but strong, and it had 552 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: a kind of a scarlet stone. And I have freakishly 553 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: tiny hands, I really do, um especially my fingers, and 554 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: I've never had a ring that I haven't had to 555 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: get sized down, especially from my wedding finger. I think 556 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: it's one of other than my pinky, the smallest one. 557 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: And I popped this ring on and it fit perfectly 558 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: and I loved it. Yea. My husband was so excited 559 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: because we had gone to a bunch of shops and 560 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: nothing was right and things were too expensive and didn't 561 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: fit and and he said great, and he went to 562 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: pay for it, and I said hold on, and I 563 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: took out my wallet and paid with my money. And 564 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: not that that maybe was more symbolic than anything, because 565 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: it's not like at that point we had separated our 566 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: bank accounts. But it was important to me to get 567 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,720 Speaker 1: myself a ring. I made a choice to be married. 568 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: I made a choice to stay for the time being, 569 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: at least at that moment with my family and try 570 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: to put this family back together. And I wanted a 571 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: symbol of that, but I wanted to get it. Yeah, 572 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: that's beautiful. When there's a betrayal in a marriage, when 573 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: there's a secret that one person knows and the other doesn't, 574 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: there's a part of history that is stolen, at least 575 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: from me. And until recently, I couldn't even look at 576 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: my wedding photos or beautiful moments over the twenty years 577 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: we had together because I felt like I was the chump, 578 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: you know, like I didn't know what was really going 579 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: on there. That's changed a bit, i will say, in 580 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: present day, but at that time, there were songs that 581 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: I always loved that I couldn't listen to. There was 582 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: jewelry that meant so much to me that I had 583 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: to put away, and that was just such a loss. 584 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: And I don't mean to belittle other parts of grief 585 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: and loss in betrayal, but there is something that the 586 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: partner who's betrayed really never gets back because you're still 587 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: putting the story together, whereas the other person knows the 588 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: full story. And you know, my husband to this day, 589 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: I'll look at a photo and say oh, that was 590 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: just such a beautiful happy day. And I'll say, but 591 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't really know. He'll say, no, 592 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: it was, and I but you know, there's just that 593 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: feeling of there was something going on that I didn't know. 594 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: At Jase's hearing, he pleads guilty and is sentenced to 595 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: ten years of probation. It's a huge relief that he 596 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: won't serve jail time. But despite the legal proceedings being over, 597 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: there is and perhaps always will be, continue to fallout, 598 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: and he had to register as a sex offender. Yes 599 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: he did, he does, he is. I guess I'm thinking 600 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: about marriage and partnership and intimacy and what it means 601 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: two like sort of reach a new place, hard hard 602 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: one and ongoing, but one in which there is the 603 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,919 Speaker 1: true intimacy. Early in your play, you say something like 604 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: I entered the marriage with little secrets, you know, the 605 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: occasional cigarette, a little botox, you know, my secret meditation mantra. 606 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: But Jason entered the marriage with a big secret, and 607 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: that was obviously something that was there and which you've 608 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 1: had to revise in a certain way those those twenty years. 609 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: With the fact that he knew his secret and you 610 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: did not, but now you do. And what does that 611 00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: do for the sense of connection and closeness and intimacy. Well, 612 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: I've heard it said, and I believe that the opposite 613 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And when someone's 614 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: in their addiction of any kind, there's no real chance 615 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: for intimacy. So I was in a marriage. I want 616 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: to also be clear that again I say this that 617 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: I can't tell my husband's story. That's for him to tell, 618 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: but I will say that Jason's pornography addiction did not 619 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: start where it ended, you know. That's that's like the end. 620 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: The illegal pornography was a very late stage, part of 621 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: the end of a long of a drug, you know, 622 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: where you need more and darker to get your high, 623 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: I suppose. But yes, pornography was a part of my 624 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: marriage that I didn't know. And now I am with 625 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 1: someone who not only do I know the worst thing 626 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: they've ever done, everyone knows the worst thing he's ever done. 627 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: And as much as that is shameful, it is incredibly 628 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: freeing because if you're that person and people still love you, 629 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: I mean, what that can do is pretty astonishing. So 630 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: we don't have secrets anymore. So there is a level 631 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: of intimacy that I didn't know existed that I now 632 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: have now Danny. That is not to say that if 633 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: I say to him one day, hey babe, I need 634 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: blueberries as part of you know, you're going to do 635 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: the food shopping and he comes back and forgets the blueberries, 636 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 1: that I don't have a moment of going you don't 637 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: listen to me. You're keeping secrets. What's going on? You know? 638 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: This is not to say everything is latti dati da. 639 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: I am very very attuned and afraid of any kind 640 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: of lie or secret. But I also see the person 641 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: that I fell in love with who started to fade 642 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: away through the years, and I see more than that. 643 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,919 Speaker 1: So I don't wish this on anyone. He has done 644 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: a lot of work and is well aware of the 645 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: victims of that kind of pornography and the hurt that 646 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: he has caused so many people, and he is fully 647 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: honest in his life, and so to have that partner 648 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: is great. I mean, it's a weird thing to say, 649 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: but it's great, and it's deep and it's real, and 650 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: it's sometimes incredibly exhausting, and I try to match it 651 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: with my own work and my own program and my 652 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: own honesty. Like I said, I'm really not a person 653 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: who kept too many secrets. Quite the opposite. I tend 654 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: to lead with telling you the worst thing about me 655 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: so I can get ahead of it. But this stuff 656 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: goes to another level. I've learned a lot about shame 657 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: and things. Anything that has to do with sex and 658 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,919 Speaker 1: sexuality can just be really deeply buried, and I've I've 659 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: had to look at my own past and things that 660 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: I had to look at. I didn't understand at first 661 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: why my husband wouldn't just tell me I'm struggling with 662 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: this or I was abused as a you know, I 663 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: had some abuse as a as a boy, like I'm me, 664 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: But there's something that shame does. I really have come 665 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: to believe that secrets keep us sick, and that the 666 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: shame just perpetuates this, and that if we don't talk 667 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: about it, it'll just keep happening. I think if you 668 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,280 Speaker 1: ever interviewed Jace, he would say he planned to stop 669 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: doing this and go to his grave with that secret. 670 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: He did not want to ever tell anyone that he 671 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: was looking at pornography, let alone illegal pornography, ever, and 672 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 1: he didn't tell his therapist, you know. And and if 673 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: someone believes that maybe they could talk about it and 674 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: not be thrown out of society and not be thrown 675 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: out of their marriage, maybe we can actually get somewhere 676 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: and get some help and not have this huge industry. 677 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: I mean, pornography is everywhere, and nobody's talking about it. Well, 678 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: I mean not nobody, but I feel like we're not 679 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: talking about it. I have three children. They've gone to 680 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: sex ed in various schools, temples, churches, and it is 681 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: really under disgust, which again is like, oh, it's shameful, 682 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: it's secret, but it's there. I have now told this 683 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: story publicly partly because it was already out there, but 684 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 1: I wanted people to know the nuance a little bit. 685 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: And the number of women and men who have shared 686 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: their stories with me, including people I know well who 687 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: I had no idea there were certain secrets going on. 688 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm happy to be in a family and I include 689 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: my kids in this where we can lay it all 690 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,399 Speaker 1: out on the table. There's not much that we don't 691 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: talk about. And seeing that their dad fell down so 692 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: hard and we as a family allowed him to get 693 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: back up, I hope is a lesson in saying, you 694 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: don't have to keep things secret. We can help, there's recovery, 695 00:44:28,880 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: there's hope. Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. 696 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: Molly Zachor is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is 697 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,879 Speaker 1: the executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd 698 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 1: like to share, please leave us a voicemail and your 699 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: story could appear on an upcoming episode. Our number is 700 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: one eight eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You 701 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: can also find me on Instagram at Danny writer. And 702 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: if you'd like to know more about the story that 703 00:45:33,960 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 1: inspired this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance m h. 704 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I 705 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 706 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.