WEBVTT - Just Ten Steps 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.120 From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset. 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.040 I am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:06.440 me either. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:11.400 A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:12.840 a deadly tipping point. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.240 In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide Pelissea. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.520 A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people. 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:25.279 Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.040 I will have my revenge. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.840 Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.680 and towards men who get all the women. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.000 I just told my husband I know she's dead. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:44.120 This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio, 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:52.280 Season one, Episode three, Just ten Steps. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.520 a producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, Gabriel Castillo, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:01.680 Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. In the first two episodes, 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:06.800 we identified what in cels are, spoke with experts about ideologies, language, 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.800 and where they commonly congregate online. We also heard from 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.000 two remarkable mothers who shared in the aftermath of losing 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.120 their daughters, nineteen year old Veronica Weiss and seventeen year 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:22.320 old Bianca Devans, both girls died senselessly at the hands 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.480 of inseell ideology taken to its most violent extreme. In 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.039 the case of Bianca. What her killer did post mortem 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.280 continues online to this day. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.120 Seventeen year old Bianca Devns of Utica was found dead 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:38.919 in a wooded area at the end of the street. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.040 Her killer posted the images of her body online and 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:43.160 they soon went viral. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.480 On discord, it's fairly common for people to post gore 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.720 and disturbing images just to sort of get a rise 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:51.520 out of people. 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.920 Kim Devns, Bianca's mother, spoke about how toxic and dangerous 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.840 the conversations are in insuell forums. That's where we spend 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.200 a lot of time throughout our producing both to get 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.680 a lay of the land and to gather firsthand experiences. 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:11.920 Here's investigative journalist and producer Connor Powell talking about his 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.040 experiences on insull forums. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.280 There's sort of two different groups. There are those that 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.240 are very public about their struggles and self describing themselves 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.720 as in cells and on places like Facebook and Reddit. 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.959 They tend to be a little bit more sort of calm, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.040 a little less angry, and that's part according to talking 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.840 to them, is that both Facebook and Reddit have some rules, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:40.959 have some moderation restrictions, and they do police the language 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.880 they are using, often their own names, so they're a 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.400 little bit more easy to talk to. But on in 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.880 cell discussion board, insel dot co or insel dot is, 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.160 those names are all anonymous. They don't use their real names. 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.560 In fact, there was a whole discussion thread about how 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:00.400 you can best protect yourself, about protecting your identity so 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.280 that you can essentially post as angrily as obscene as 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.920 you want without having to have any repercussions. So you know, 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.400 they are very aware that what they're posting could get 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.080 them into trouble. And I think you see a lot 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.800 more abusive language, a lot more sort of obscene language 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.600 on this in cell website than you would say on 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.000 like an in cell chat group on Facebook or even Reddit. 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.400 Online anonymity means no repercussions for being nasty. 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.639 Add all this together and you get what psychologists call. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:37.880 The online disinhibition effect, and effectively it dictates that people 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.680 will do things that they wouldn't do in the real world. 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.080 I asked why members of inseell forums would have such 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.880 a strong focus on security and anonymity. 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.280 They don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.560 to have other groups that are combating in cell behavior 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.600 or in cell speech, you know, find out their names 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.000 and put their information out of on social media, to 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.600 have the police called on them, to have other groups 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.560 attack them online. So you know, they really do make 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.240 a real effort to protect their identity because they just 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.360 don't want to be called out. They know generally what 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.440 they're saying is inappropriate. Generally what they're saying is not 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.280 acceptable in sort of the real world. So one person 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.280 talk about how for them, the real world is online 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.920 and the real world for them, in terms of interacting 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.000 with other people is sort of the fake world. They 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.560 have to be somebody they are not in the real world, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.680 and that's because they feel most comfortable when they can 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.159 use this abuse of language and say things that most 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:39.920 people would find pretty obscene. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.400 Spending time on whatever you're interested in is not a 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:48.320 new phenomenon. People have things in common or generally agree 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.360 with one another. Forming groups is not a new phenomenon. However, 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.680 the ways people are fed information and are drawn together online, 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.120 specifically in social media, has not just been mega amplified, 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.240 it's literally gotten out of human control. 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.240 Americans average more than two hours a day scrolling content 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.920 fed to us through algorithms based on our specific interests 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.120 and past online activity. But a growing chorus of critics 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.120 warns that algorithms can lead us to disturbing places, into 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:22.200 making bad choices. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:27.520 These algorithms, they are the digital equivalent of ar fifteens. 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.719 Social media algorithms seem to hand deliver whatever you didn't 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.240 know you needed, write to your phone or computer and 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.800 instantly how to craft the perfect cocktail out of paar juices, 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:44.080 master cartwheel, or spruce up your backyard. These are innocuous examples. 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.800 Here's Stephanie and Connor Powell discussing the potentially nefarious side 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:49.839 of algorithms. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.480 At its most basic level, the algorithm is a computer 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.720 or social media site deciding what is put in front 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.839 of you in your feed. It's a computational set of 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.240 rules that whether it's one of the large companies like 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:10.440 Facebook or Google, they've decided that they are going to 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.679 push content to you. It's the computer saying you're going 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.440 to watch this, and the more you scroll, the more 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.600 you look at things, the more it learns about your 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.400 behavior and your attitudes and your interests. Now they're looking 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.320 like are you a young man? The algorithms are getting 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:31.400 so sophisticated, they're starting to do predictive interests and predictive likes, 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.680 and for young men and for young girls, that can 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:39.039 get really dangerous because the algorithms start of making general, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.920 overarching decisions about what you should be interested in, and 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.200 it can push you in those directions because again, what 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.440 are they trying to do. They're trying to engage. What's 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:51.080 the easiest way to engage to inflame if you're fired up, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.680 if you're angry, if you are riddled with anxiety. You 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.280 keep scrolling, you keep looking through, creating a feedback. 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.640 And what we're seeing real time with Insight, which I 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.640 thought was really staggering. There is no question now that 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:09.600 there are certain groups and people who are specifically targeting 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:14.280 young demographics who have a very limited social network, who 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.080 maybe feel isolated in the world, who maybe feel like 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:21.120 the loner, who may have suicide ideation or a tilt 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:26.440 toward violence because they're feeling completely disenfranchised. That is the target. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.559 So it's not just this happy accident where two things 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:31.160 are meeting in this dark place. 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.360 We spoke with Boyce and Hodson, the communications and marketing 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:43.440 director for The Mankind Project USA. He shared some disturbing 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.600 but very important information with us. 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:49.560 It is very easy to see and folks, my age, 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:53.000 folks who are older parents, we have young adult children. 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.880 A lot of us, we don't even know what our 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:01.120 children are seeing. And when the researcher go and look 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.800 at content and just kind of let the algorithms take 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.160 over for them, what is inevitably going to happen with 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:12.120 in Sell ideology, with pornography, with any kind of violent 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:16.600 or antisocial messaging, is that the content will get increasingly 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:22.120 violent and increasingly more negative if you just let the 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.840 algorithm control what you're seeing. So a nine year old 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:31.800 boy can very easily go from a very innocuous YouTube 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:37.920 video to hardcore in Sell ideology in ten steps. You know, 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:40.800 that's a made up number, but it's very easy to 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:45.400 go from very simple stuff into very harmful stuff if 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.240 you just follow the algorithm. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.520 We asked how this continuous, violent and antisocial content affects 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:54.880 young developing minds. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.560 There is an incredibly dangerous developmental experiment that we are 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.960 playing with young people in our culture. Jonathan Hate talks 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.840 about this in his writing quite a lot. There's a 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:15.200 book called Dopamine Nation that really highlights this idea that 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.680 we are rewiring our children's brains and ways that we 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.280 don't even understand, and we won't actually know what the 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.280 outcome is for another ten years or so. The addictive 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:31.640 process is an incredibly powerful process that we are kind 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.840 of just letting run our society. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.000 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:09:41.040 --> 0:10:05.640 a moment here again. Connor Powell and Stephanie Leidecker. They're 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.840 talking about how social media is specifically designed to keep 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.400 us all on edge or enraged. It's a way of 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:14.760 locking us into the doom scrolling loops. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:21.120 So the single most important metric that social media companies 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:25.120 use for their sites, and Mark Zuckerberg has talked about 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:29.240 this is engagement. What is engagement? Engagement is how long 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.520 are you on their website? And how do you keep 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:37.040 people engaged? You build a sense of anxiety, you fire 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:40.520 them up. They are designed to take you to bad places. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:43.320 Have you ever felt like the ads that you see 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.240 on your social media feed are specifically targeted to you. 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.960 It's almost like the app is listening to your conversation. 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:51.920 What if your phone already knows what you'll buy? 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.160 Who you'll date, even what you'll fear before you do. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:02.679 The single largest entertainment company in the world is not Comcasts, Paramount, Disney, 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.640 the BBC, or any of these other companies. It is YouTube. 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.079 There is more content, It creates more revenue and more 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.360 profit than any other and YouTube has something that no 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.040 other company does because YouTube is owned by Alphabet, the 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.240 Google company. Right, if you send an email that gets 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.640 pumped into how you will look and what is fed 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.240 to you in YouTube, because it will read what you 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.640 are doing an email or what you are searching for. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.640 I want baseball cleats for my son. Guess what's going 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.120 to pop up on YouTube? Advertisements or people talking about 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.480 baseball equipment, or people talking about sports, or maybe they 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.760 broaden it out if you put in something that's maybe darker, oh, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.720 gasoline caniser. Who knows what's going to pop up on 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.360 YouTube when you go to YouTube? Right, Yeah, maybe it's 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.880 for your vehicle, or maybe it's for something else. We 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.640 just don't know because we don't know what's in the algorithm. 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.320 It can take you to some very dark places. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.320 What you just described is exactly the point and the 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:01.679 scariest thing I've ever heard. 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.160 Do you remember when we first got on social media, 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.600 and it was just twenty years ago, right, it went 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.440 from being a connection to your family and friends to 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:16.120 essentially a NonStop advertisement of other people's products. 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:18.600 That you bring up a good point about advertising, and 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.080 I guess that's the key question that we want to unpack. 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.920 Where is the money? Who is paying for what? The 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.920 oldest adage in the land follow the money. 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.280 I mean, the largest companies in the world right now 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.920 are all tech companies that are dealing with AI or 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:39.800 providing algorithms for content. When Google purchased YouTube back in 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.640 two thousand and six, twenty years ago about now, they 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.800 purchased for one point six billion and is now worth 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:50.199 roughly five hundred billion dollars. That's an incredible return for 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.920 the Google Alphabet company. And it's the largest media company 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.960 in the world right now. Their reach is global and 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.559 they don't pay for any content. All they do is 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.080 put ads on user generated content. Just to put that 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:09.320 in perspective, there are first world countries like Austria, Singapore, 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.840 Norway which have GDPs the gross domesster product which is 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.000 sort of the how big is the economy that are 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.520 roughly five hundred billion dollars so YouTube as a standalone 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.440 company as roughly the same value as some of these 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:28.920 other first world countries. That's how big and powerful YouTube 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:30.360 as a standalone company is. 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.320 Stephanie and Connor turn their attention from the nuts and 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:40.839 bolts of algorithms, technology so powerful it's collectively worth trillions 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.240 of dollars worldwide to how their impacts can lead to 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:45.440 real world violence. 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.199 If we're watching things on our social media that are 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:55.360 intentionally being targeted to our small perspective, that's also pretty dangerous. 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:59.000 So if you're somebody who's unemployed, tough on their luck, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:01.920 living in the base men of mom and dad's house, 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.680 kind of feeling a little bit lonesome and depressed, not 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.640 really assimilating into the real world. Here you are, You're 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.079 on your computer, you're lacking community, and now suddenly community 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.480 is finding you. Now suddenly said community is dark and 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:20.440 potentially dangerous, and they're filling your brain with more dark, 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.840 scary information. So while you may feel like you are 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.400 a part of a community, the community is full on 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.760 targeting you because they know that you might be vulnerable 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.600 and lonely and susceptible to them. And at the end 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:34.560 of the day, it could lead to violence, as we're 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:35.560 seeing real time. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.320 In the hour before the attack, a four page manifesto 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.440 allegedly written by Crusius appeared online. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.720 Social media posts attributed to him contain other hate speech, 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.600 and a final entry just before the shooting, perhaps was 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.600 an indicator of the deadly violence about to unfold. The 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.600 suspect repeatedly posted photos of guns and Bower's profile page 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.360 read quote, screw your optics, I'm going in. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.960 Even when we started this podcast, this was not that 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.400 prevalent in terms of language in cells, things like that. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.840 Now it's on the ticker of every show we are 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:16.320 seeing because the radicalization in these dark corners of the 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.280 web that are not regulated, we're all subjected to it 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.520 and don't even realize it. So and we're adults. What 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.000 about those who were kind of finding their way on 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:26.440 their own. 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.600 We had an in depth interview with the young man 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.120 who self identifies as an insul. He goes by mister East. 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.320 We'll hear more of his personal story in a later episode. 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.040 For now, in an effort to hear all perspectives, we 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.560 ask mister East how he feels algorithms are impacting his world. 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.520 For me, it was eye opening. 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.320 I mean algorithms. I don't think they're doing it intentionally. 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.480 I think they're more like they're doing it because they see, 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.480 like people view a lot of these contents, and they 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.800 push the content because you know, they want to make money, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.120 right and more. The more people view them, the more 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.840 a revenue they get, the more money they make. And 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.120 what happens is that a lot of these people, basically 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.920 it's a spiral. People might start viewing like why don't 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.600 girls like me? Or what am I doing wrong? On 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.280 Tinder at first, and maybe after words they start following 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.880 into the red pill sphere, maybe not like the black 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.560 pill right away. It all depends on how like the 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.680 algorithm plays out by chance. I don't believe the Internet 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:36.200 makes people into in cells. I think like life experiences does, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.480 but like the Internet certainly allows more, like more of 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.000 these black pill types of people to like get together 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.040 and discuss their thoughts and ideas. 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.720 We asked mister East how he personally got involved in 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.120 online in cell groups, as well as how and why 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.239 he thinks others found these communities. 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.320 Yeah, I do think that algorithm plays large role into 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.760 forming these groups. I first joined the community because I 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.600 wanted to basically talk to people. I was never too 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.520 good at forming relationships, you know, making friends. So when 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.679 I got invited within the community and started like talking 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.679 and getting along with a lot of the people, I 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:21.600 do believe that a lot of these people they aren't 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.639 really like bad people. They are just lonely, maybe socially 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.240 awkward as well, which is why the Internet, I guess, 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.800 in a way, is so easy for them to you know, 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.760 get together and form these communities, because it is much 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:38.880 easier over the Internet to communicate and form groups than 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.359 it is in real life. A lot of them, including me, 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.560 we do bond over our shared sense of failure in 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.200 a way. You know, it's sometimes good to know, hey, 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.439 you're not the only failure within this world. You know 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.600 you're not alone in this. And I feel like that 0:17:55.760 --> 0:18:00.439 really resonates with a lot of people because one of 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:05.480 the things I do believe that occurs when people are failing, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.480 depending on like how many people around them share the 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.680 same problems, they might feel more alone because they might think, 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.720 why am I the only one who's struggling with this? 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.000 Why is nobody else? Is there just something intrinsically wrong 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.440 with me? I think having a community that can tell 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.320 you, you know, we're just like you, we shared the same problem. 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.679 Then we can we can have a laugh about it. 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.280 We can say, hey, it's over. You know it never began. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.800 We asked mister East about how online groups compare to 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:35.960 in person physical connections. 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.040 I would say that no online group in general can 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.879 really substitute for in their personal relationships in real life. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.840 And I think that despite having like a community that 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.920 can relate to you, I do think that it doesn't 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.040 really solve your loneliness. And this is where like a 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.040 lot of people get sucked into like the part of 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.200 the community that is like more misogynist, more hateful, and 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.760 more like angry. Because when you don't have any in 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.200 real life relationships and you instead spend all your times 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.879 within these echo chambers that like you know, are just 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:16.400 born from people's pain and anger and frustration, it does 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:21.520 cause many people to become more and more radicalized. And 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.080 basically online isn't like a replacement for real life loneliness. 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.080 You will still feel lonely even if you are a 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.960 part of these communities, despite what society tells you. You know, 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.600 the nice guy doesn't win. The nice guy never wins in. 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:40.440 This case, algorithms feed us what they think we want 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.760 to see. It gets to the point where people often 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.080 don't see opposing ideas that may challenge their own views 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.760 unless it's through the lens of attacking or mocking the 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.080 other side. And the cycle keeps going. 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:00.879 Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:24.720 a moment. Stephanie and Connor continue their conversation, focusing on 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:29.400 how isolation can lead to radicalization and violent tendencies. 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:35.159 The dark place is literally seeking out young men hoping 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.280 to radicalize. And by the way, what we're seeing real time, 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.119 it's the lone shooter. It's the lone wolf who is 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.800 being radicalized by themselves in the basement. You can see 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:47.320 how that can turn darkly quick. 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.159 One of the things I find so interesting about some 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:52.560 of the lone wolf shooters that we've had in the 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:55.119 last couple of years is one of the first things 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:58.440 that we always hear about them from authorities is they 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.800 went on discord to post that they shot somebody, or 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.560 they went on social media to explain their manifesto before 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.840 they shoot somebody. Social media is a part of the 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.800 thought process for violent acts in this country. It's not 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.200 just having access to the weapon. It's also the ability 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:20.119 to tell the world why I'm doing this on Facebook. Remember, 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.720 they've we've had shooters who have live streamed these things. 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.400 We've had shooters who have recorded pre shooting why they're 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.200 doing this. In the case of Tyler Robinson with Charlie Kirk, 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.239 he went on Discord, apparently to brag about doing it, 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:34.399 to tell his friends that he did this shooting. We 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.440 didn't have that in these violent acts twenty years ago. 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.359 They terrorist invited people to view the Discord server that 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:43.840 housed his manifesto in other posts in the hour before 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.760 the shooting, so other members the public had an idea 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.640 of what he was up to. Ezekiel Kelly pleaded guilty 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.480 to a deadly citywide shooting spree. 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.199 He used Facebook to live stream the shooting. Armed with 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.000 a rifle, shot and killed four colleagues and wounded nine 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.960 other people, according to police, while live streaming the attack. 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:10.320 We look at Elliott Roger and his terrible, terrible, terrible 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.720 crime that he committed that was unusual, right and Bianca Devin, 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:19.440 for example, the most horrific example. This poor girl was 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.600 murdered and her murderer posted about it and posted after 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:27.600 it and put it on social media for all to see. Remember, 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:30.320 we are seeing things that we should not. Nobody should 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:33.840 witness a man being murdered, as we all just recently 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.760 did in the Charlie Kirk assassination. But now we're seeing 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.359 it again and again and again. We're seeing that again 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:44.159 with Tyler Robinson, Luigi Mangione. These are single person with 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.159 a gun who are now going to act on behalf 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.359 of many, whether they've been instructed to or not. That 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:54.000 is so scary because again we're just scratching the surface. 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.320 Now we're seeing repeat after repeat after repeat. I mean, 0:22:57.400 --> 0:22:59.840 they're not even trying to not get caught. It's almost 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.560 like there is something popular about being a part of 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:07.080 this act of violence, and somewhere that's being celebrated. 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:14.520 While outward violence, these murders and assassinations, which either allegedly 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:19.040 or in some cases assuredly stem from online radicalization, are 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:24.800 on the uptick. Thankfully, statistically, they are rare. Self harm, however, 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.600 is becoming more and more prevalent as a worldwide epidemic 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:34.080 spreading because of social media. Here again, investigative journalists Connor 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:36.000 Powell and Stephanie Ladaker. 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.480 The amount of self harm and there are lots of 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:44.119 scientific studies that I've been done at this point about 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:48.240 the self harm social media sites due to young adults. 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:51.320 This is known, and the reality is we've known this 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:54.879 for a long time anecdotally, but it's scientific sort of proven. 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:59.080 Now there is no rules about what can be pushed 0:23:59.080 --> 0:23:59.840 in front of kids. 0:23:59.840 --> 0:23:59.919 Now. 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.320 Now there's some discussions about whether these AI models should 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:05.960 be encouraging people to commit suicide or whether or not 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.640 they should be offering help when it comes to suicide. 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:11.760 But there are multiple lawsuits right now where family members 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:15.720 whose children turn to AI models and ask them about 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:19.040 suicide and the AI model gave them a blueprint for 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:20.160 how to commit suicide. 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:22.840 You bring up such a big thing because post COVID, 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.600 this is really a conversation about loneliness at its core. 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:30.320 In cells, this conversation, even at its core, we really 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:34.360 are talking about a lonely person who is struggling, who 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.679