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Speaker 1: On the Bechde Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy.

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Speaker 2: Eph and Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, let's be sisters and best friends.

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Speaker 1: Okay for now? That is wow.

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Speaker 3: Oh you don't want to be my friend? Well, let's

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Speaker 3: see how you fair is my enemy?

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Speaker 1: And then the best fight scene I've ever seen. It

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Speaker 1: was so fun. Well, I think that that actually is

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Speaker 1: a full recap of the movie in a way. There's

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Speaker 1: also two guys.

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Speaker 3: Yea sometimes, but they're not very important.

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Speaker 1: There's two guys, there's a kiss. Oh and and then

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Speaker 1: Jade Fox.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think my favorite character Jade Fox rock. Well, anyways,

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Speaker 1: we gotta start the show. We gotta start the show.

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Speaker 1: It's Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon Day on the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 1: My name is Shamie Loftis.

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Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Deronte, and this is our show

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Speaker 3: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. Jamie,

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Speaker 3: could you indulge us and tell us what even is that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so indulgent of me to do. Living deliciously here, okay.

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Speaker 1: The Bechtel Test is a media metric created by queer

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Speaker 1: cartoonist Alison Bechdel, originally created as a sort of one

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Speaker 1: off joke in her comic collection Likes to Watch Out For.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of different versions of the test. The

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Speaker 1: one that we discussed in this show requires that there

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Speaker 1: be two characters of a marginalized gender with names that

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Speaker 1: talk to each other about something other than a man

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Speaker 1: for more than two lines of dialogue. But we talk

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Speaker 1: about a lot of other stuff too, because that would

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Speaker 1: be a very short show. Even though to this day

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Speaker 1: it is the easiest way to find out if someone

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Speaker 1: is lying to me. When they say they've listened to

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Speaker 1: this show, they're like, yeah, that's the one where you

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Speaker 1: for two hours. I was like, do you think we

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Speaker 1: go through the script, like, what do you think happens?

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Speaker 3: I we don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's baffling to me, but I appreciate the lie, and

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Speaker 1: I think I mean that. Oh yeah, I love being

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Speaker 1: lying too, and that is a big problem in my life.

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Speaker 1: But enough about that.

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Speaker 3: I would never lie to you, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: Unless but see, that's what a liar would say, Oh

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Speaker 1: my cerience. Liars love to call attention to the fact

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Speaker 1: that they would definitely never lie in this essay. I will.

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Speaker 1: Let's get our guests in.

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Speaker 3: Yes, let's she is a podcaster host of It could

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Speaker 3: Happen here on Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: It's me a Wong Welcome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think you all asked for me,

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Speaker 2: so now now you're getting me along.

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Speaker 1: It's true that our our listeners in fact demanded it.

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Speaker 1: You've been a popularly requested guest on the show, and

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Speaker 1: we're so happy to have you here. How are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm hanging in there. I'm excited to be here. I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping that the absolute chaos of the last year is

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Speaker 2: somewhat lifting. Yeah, we're gonna We're gonna go from there

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Speaker 2: and proceed on the assumption that I'm gonna be fine

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Speaker 2: and not start dying. Halfway into this recording.

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Speaker 3: Everything is let us hope not.

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Speaker 1: Everything's coming up me. I can just feel it.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Miya. What is

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Speaker 3: your relationship with this movie?

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Speaker 2: So, my mom loves kung fu movies. She also she

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Speaker 2: reads unfathomable numbers of kung fu books. She's watched indescribable

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Speaker 2: numbers of kung fu movies, and so I grew up

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Speaker 2: on I guess kind of weirdly early two thousands kung

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Speaker 2: fu movies. So things like House, The Flying Dagger, A Hero,

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Speaker 2: and then this movie, which okay, So I I was

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Speaker 2: home to go to the doctor and I was like, hey,

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Speaker 2: do you want to watch? As I talked to my parents,

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Speaker 2: like do you want to watch watch this movie with me?

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Speaker 2: And they were like sure, and my dad goes, I

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Speaker 2: remember not liking.

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Speaker 4: This movie, and I was like huh, and then my

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Speaker 4: mom was like, oh no, what she she okay, So

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Speaker 4: like she she has watched so many of these movies

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Speaker 4: that like, when this movie.

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Speaker 2: Starts, she is doing like power level rankings based on

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Speaker 2: like their cheekong and like like the their their their

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Speaker 2: ability to do the thing where everyone has like a

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Speaker 2: floaty jump and they can sort of like soar around

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Speaker 2: in midair. She's like, ah, this character she is weaker

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Speaker 2: for the other.

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Speaker 1: I was like, God, your mom sounds great, and that

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Speaker 1: also sounds like a very stressful way to watch a movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fun too, because She's like, she also did

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Speaker 2: martial arts, so she was like a blackie and Kashi

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Speaker 2: kempow and so it's a it is a time watching

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Speaker 2: watch movies.

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Speaker 1: That's so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: How how did she feel revisiting it?

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Speaker 2: It was kind of unhappy because it has I guess

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Speaker 2: spoiler alert for you. So there's there's a trope in

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Speaker 2: kung fu movies, particularly the Chinese ones, somewhat less so

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Speaker 2: the like Hong Kong kung fu movies. But at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of the movie, she said, Okay, so every every

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Speaker 2: kung fu movie has one plot, which is someone's either

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Speaker 2: mother or their teacher dies and then someone gains a

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Speaker 2: great power to go avenge them, and then everyone dies

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Speaker 2: at the end. And that is also this movie's plot

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Speaker 2: more or less. She's like, everyone dies at the end.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just kind of like a doubled up version

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Speaker 1: of that plot. Yeah, everyone's teacher dies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah damn. But so you you watched this movie with

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Speaker 3: your mom? Is that right?

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Speaker 2: As a yeah? Yeah, as a kid. I think Actually,

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Speaker 2: if I'm remembering right, I think we actually watched this

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Speaker 2: movie in a hotel in Beijing in like a It

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Speaker 2: was a very weird situation. It's like we had this

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Speaker 2: hotel and there's it's almost like a bunk floor. So

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Speaker 2: there's like this one giant window, and then there's like

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Speaker 2: these beds on the top of on like the top floor,

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Speaker 2: and then there's like a ladder and you go down.

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Speaker 2: And so my mom and my dad were watching the

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Speaker 2: movie on the TV. My sister and I were like

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Speaker 2: supposed to be going to sleep. We were watching the

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Speaker 2: movie in the window.

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Speaker 1: Yes, oh, I love sneak watching a movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Ah, my dad used to watch I think I've brought

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Speaker 1: this up on the show before. My dad used to

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Speaker 1: watch IFC movies at night after we went to bed,

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Speaker 1: and that was the only way I could see boobs

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Speaker 1: on TV. Even though it's just like I just should

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Speaker 1: have learned how to, Like, I don't know why. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I could have just googled it. I was afraid.

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Speaker 1: I lived in fear of everything. So I was like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I have c boobs are the only boobs

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Speaker 1: in this house.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's probably a reasonable, pretty reasonable way to

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Speaker 2: engage with the Internet. I feel like we should be

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Speaker 2: more afraid.

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Speaker 1: Of it, honestly, yeah, conditioned to be afraid of it.

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Speaker 1: I went through a phase where when I was in

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Speaker 1: college where I was like I was raised to fear

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Speaker 1: this great tool, and then you're like, no, hold on,

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Speaker 1: it is trying to kill everybody.

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Speaker 3: It's like the ocean, very scary, Jamie, what is your

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Speaker 3: relationship with this movie?

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Speaker 1: I had? I saw this movie again. I feel like

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Speaker 1: this is my story for every movie that came out

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Speaker 1: in the early two thousands. I saw it on TNT

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Speaker 1: at one point, and I don't think that this movie

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Speaker 1: would have gotten as heavy an edit as some of

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Speaker 1: my TNT faves. It's not a cussing movie and there

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that there is there is some sex.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I saw it when I was probably in

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Speaker 1: junior higher high school. I remember enjoying it, and then

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Speaker 1: I saw it again when it was just re released

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Speaker 1: in theaters. I think it was just like a couple

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Speaker 1: of months ago. So I saw the re release and

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Speaker 1: that was really fun. I mean, this movie is so

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Speaker 1: cool and a gigantic theater. It was very, very exciting.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so it's not a particularly interesting history, but

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Speaker 1: it is somewhat long, and I also I'm just like

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Speaker 1: interested in Angley's career trajectory is like very fascinating to me.

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Speaker 3: He's got range.

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Speaker 1: The man's got range. And also I was just reading

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Speaker 1: about I was just you know, perusing scholarly journal, Wikipedia,

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Speaker 1: and he and Spike Lee were classmates at NYU, and

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Speaker 1: Angley like worked as a crew member on Spike Lee's thesis.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, cool, you know everything I hear

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Speaker 1: about n YU. I'm like, good for them. Caitlin, what's

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Speaker 1: your history with this movie.

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Speaker 3: It's a very short one because I didn't see it

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Speaker 3: until the re release in theaters of February of this year.

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Speaker 3: I intended to see it sooner. I bought it on

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Speaker 3: DVD many years ago, thinking Oh, if I have it

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Speaker 3: on DVD, I'll definitely watch it because there's so many

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Speaker 3: things on my watch list, but they often to quote

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Speaker 3: a star was born, Okay, they fall by the wayside.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, But I was like, Oh, if I have

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Speaker 3: it on DVD, I'll definitely watch it. But I also

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Speaker 3: bought it on DVD long after the medium of DVD

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Speaker 3: was popular, so I still didn't get around to it.

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Speaker 3: But when I heard it was coming out in theaters again,

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Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, this is a perfect opportunity anyway,

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Speaker 3: just to see it on the big screen, because this

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Speaker 3: is one of those movies that feels like a movie,

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Speaker 3: you know, like.

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Speaker 1: I really go to the theater type film.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So I saw it a couple months

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Speaker 3: ago for the first time and thought it was awesome.

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Speaker 3: I loved the fighting and the story and the characters

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Speaker 3: and in general it rocks. I love it.

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Speaker 1: Pretty sad though it is right pre fucking depressing towards

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Speaker 1: the end, which I knew it was a trope, but

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Speaker 1: I was like, I mean that's not a criticism, it's

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Speaker 1: just a fact.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, to be fair, To be fair, this

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Speaker 2: movie's survival rate is actually pretty high for a kung

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Speaker 2: fu movie.

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Speaker 3: Because I mean, Michelle Yeo's character she survives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think both of both of the Jen lives, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't seem like Jen dies.

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Speaker 3: I don't understand exactly what happens at the end, and

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Speaker 3: I need help interpreting it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have. I have a thesis about this, but

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Speaker 2: we can I guess, wait for it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay. I was just like, my thesis is based

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Speaker 1: on nothing except I just like, I was like, she's fine, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she survived worse than this, She's fine.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, shall I do the recap and we'll go

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Speaker 3: from there.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So we meet a warrior named Schulin that's Michelle Yo.

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Speaker 3: She is visited by Lee Mubai that is Chow Young Fat.

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Speaker 3: They are friends, but also there's a bit of romantic

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Speaker 3: chemistry between them.

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Speaker 1: God, there's so much. Yeah, there's a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of people holding tension in their shoulders and their eyeballs, yes.

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Speaker 3: Great, and their beautiful faces. And Mubai is also a warrior,

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Speaker 3: a Wudan fighter, And just some context that I hope

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Speaker 3: I'm getting this correct, but Wudan refers to a class

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Speaker 3: of Chinese martial arts as well as a fictional martial

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Speaker 3: arts school that appears in several works of Wusha fiction,

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Speaker 3: and it's named after the place where it's based, which

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Speaker 3: is the Wu Dang Mountains. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: references in the movie to Wudan as a place of

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Speaker 3: study and also as a specific martial arts style. So anyway,

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Speaker 3: Mubai is a legendary fighter who studied at Wudan and

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Speaker 3: he's been there practicing meditation, but he recently decided to

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Speaker 3: break his meditation and leave. It seems like something is

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Speaker 3: weighing on him.

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Speaker 1: I know it's oversimplification to say that he got so

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Speaker 1: horny he had to drop out of school, but.

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Speaker 2: This is effectively what happened.

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Speaker 1: But that is kind of that's how it that's how

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Speaker 1: it exists. In my notes, like too horny had had

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Speaker 1: to drop out.

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Speaker 2: There's this great thing where he's like describing he like

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Speaker 2: he's meditating. He's like, is he this place beyond space

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Speaker 2: and time? And Michelle Yone's like, oh, did you reach enlightenment?

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Speaker 2: And he's like, no, I got horny. Really sad because

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Speaker 2: it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, although I almost like good for him, because I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people would often misconstrue horniness with enlightenment.

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Speaker 3: True.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so at least he was able to recognize the difference.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And he's like, fuck this, I'm out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He's like, regardless, I am too horny to be here.

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Speaker 1: I need to get out of here.

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Speaker 3: And so he goes to Schulan and gives her his

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Speaker 3: legendary sword Green Destiny is its name, and he wants

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Speaker 3: her to give it to a guy named Surtey for

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Speaker 3: safe keeping. He also mentions that his master, who taught

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Speaker 3: him to be a wood on fighter, was murdered by

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Speaker 3: someone named Jade Fox.

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Speaker 1: Yes, where we get a good, a great classic twist

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Speaker 1: in the near future where it's like Jade Fox is

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Speaker 1: a whoa whoa classic cinematic twist. I just want to

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Speaker 1: add because he doesn't appear in the movie very much.

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Speaker 1: But there's als. I don't know what their role is. Really,

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Speaker 1: it seems to be like he's like an old servant

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Speaker 1: or works with Michelle Yeoh's character, but it felt like

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Speaker 1: he was really shipping Mubai and Schuman, where he's like,

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Speaker 1: come on, why don't you just just kiss allready?

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's like surtey, that's curte Okay, yeah, he.

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Speaker 1: Wants them to kiss.

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Speaker 3: I liked, Yeah, he's like, why don't you just like

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Speaker 3: stop being so silly and admit your feelings for each other?

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Speaker 3: And Michelle was like, I don't know what you're even

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Speaker 3: talking about, Tea, it's so good.

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Speaker 1: It's Angley does that. I mean like that's like Angley's

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Speaker 1: whole movie can and basically is like just forbidden love.

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Speaker 1: It's like because that's like sense and sensibility that's broke

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Speaker 1: Back Mountain. Like it's like he just loves to keep

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Speaker 1: the lovers away from each other. Why listen.

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Speaker 2: There's is kind of this thing in this like every

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Speaker 2: old character who knows both of the two main characters,

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Speaker 2: like every old person who's immediately trying to thrust them together.

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Speaker 2: Like there's this scene later on where like Michelle Yo's

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Speaker 2: at like her hideout and she she tells one of

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Speaker 2: her servants who's like an old lady, that like he's

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Speaker 2: coming over, and she's like old bedroom. She's so excited.

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Speaker 2: This is like he's been waiting for this for like

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Speaker 2: forty years. So good.

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that because I feel like, very often,

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Speaker 1: can you hear that? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can.

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Speaker 1: I don't. There's not much I can do about it,

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Speaker 1: but I just wanted to acknowledge that it's happening. I

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Speaker 1: feel like it is more tropy for the elder generation

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Speaker 1: to be like no, you must stay apart. So I

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Speaker 1: found it very fun and refreshing for all all the

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Speaker 1: older characters to be like no kiss.

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Speaker 3: Life is short, right, So anyway, So we meet Mubai

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Speaker 3: and he's like Jade Fox murdered my master and he

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Speaker 3: wants to avenge his master's death. Shuln travels to Picking

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Speaker 3: and delivers the sword to Sir Tay. There she meets

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Speaker 3: a young woman named Jen played by Jean Zi.

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Speaker 2: Okay, can I can I interject a bit about the

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Speaker 2: subtitles in this movie? Here?

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Speaker 3: Yes, please see.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time. This is important. Something very

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Speaker 2: very strange happened with the subtitles in this movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I think it has to do with the fact that, okay,

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Speaker 2: so this movie is in Mandarin. Most of the actors

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Speaker 2: do not speak Mandarin. They are Cantonese speakers, and so

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Speaker 2: they are doing the Mandarin lines like completely phonetically. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I okay, so I can't tell if like that's

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Speaker 2: the thing that screwed up the subtitle people, or if

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Speaker 2: there was like a weird direction thing. But there's a

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Speaker 2: few things in the subtitles that are very very weird.

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Speaker 2: One of them is there there's like two characters like

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Speaker 2: Jen is one of them, and then there's another character

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Speaker 2: will be later whose names they just randomly change. And

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Speaker 2: this is kind of important. This young lady's name in

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Speaker 2: Chinese is it's like you jowlong, and so her name

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Speaker 2: is Dragon, like beautiful dragon. And this is the thing

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Speaker 2: that is capital f foreshadowing in Chinese. But for some

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Speaker 2: reason they named her Jen in the in the in

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Speaker 2: the subtitles, and so it's completely incomprehensible. I don't know

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Speaker 2: why they did this.

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Speaker 3: Well, Ang Lee, I think, is the one who subtitled

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Speaker 3: the movie from Mandarin into English, so it is his choice.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's very He made a lot of he made

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Speaker 2: a lot of stunningly incomprehensible decisions.

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Speaker 1: I don't know your own lead like that.

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Speaker 2: It's just like, I'll just leave this one and it

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Speaker 2: is a treat for the Mandarin speaking audience but no

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Speaker 2: one else. It's very weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I read. I'm excited to talk about that later

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Speaker 1: because I knew that Michelle Yeo had to learn her

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Speaker 1: lines phonetically for this movie for the most part. But

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Speaker 1: a which is like I don't have the knowledge to

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Speaker 1: understand that this is happening. But yeah, apparently the entire

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Speaker 1: Beijing crew of this movie was incredibly frustrated by the

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Speaker 1: number of accents that appear within this movie that are

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Speaker 1: I guess not authentic to the story. Although that is

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Speaker 1: like sort of a bizarre thing. We'll get there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So Schulan meets Jen, who is the daughter of the

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Speaker 3: wealthy and powerful governor. You Jen admires the sword. She

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Speaker 3: also admires Shoul's lifestyle as a warrior because she's free,

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Speaker 3: she can roam around, she doesn't have to get married.

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Speaker 3: Jen is to be married soon, and she doesn't seem

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Speaker 3: happy about it. That evening. Jen's governess, played by Cheng Peipei,

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Speaker 3: is like, you should not be hanging around with Shulin,

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Speaker 3: and Jen is like, I'm gonna hang around with whoever

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Speaker 3: I want, actually, And then later that night, a thief

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Speaker 3: steals the Green Destiny's sword. We soon learn that the

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Speaker 3: thief is Jen.

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Speaker 1: So obvious it's Jen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also appreciated that the movie doesn't make you sit

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Speaker 1: in that mystery very long, No, and also like doesn't

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like it would have been

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Speaker 1: an undercutting of Shulin's abilities for her to not realize

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Speaker 1: that basically right away. It's like, you just spent an

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Speaker 1: hour with this girl today, right.

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Speaker 3: But there's this like gar I think, a guard named

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Speaker 3: Bo who is trying to stop her, and he thinks

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Speaker 3: that the thief is a man because like, her face

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Speaker 3: is somewhat concealed, but not enough that you wouldn't still

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Speaker 3: recognize her anyway.

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Speaker 1: Especially if she's like locally famous, right, everyone would know her.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 2: I think it's an he's kind of like like the

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Speaker 2: way he's depicted is it's just as being really incompetent.

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Speaker 2: Like he he's fighting with this like staff. It's I

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Speaker 2: get that's making It's like a staff with like a

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Speaker 2: uh with like nunchruck thing at the end of it,

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Speaker 2: and he's like hitting himself in the head with it.

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Speaker 2: She's like this man, this man has weak kung fu.

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Speaker 2: Kung fu is not strong getting clowned on.

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Speaker 3: And she is a far more skilled fighter than him,

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Speaker 3: and like everyone in the movie, and she seems to

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Speaker 3: be able to fly around and do all these like

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Speaker 3: special gravity defying moves.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's is that what your mom was ranking?

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Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's like this. It's called the Weightless It's

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Speaker 2: it's the thing that's like you you can basically become weightless,

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Speaker 2: is how it works, and then you're just a power

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Speaker 2: in it lets you float more and yeah, walk up

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Speaker 2: walls and do stuff like.

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Speaker 1: That's so cool. I read that Michelle Yo tore her

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Speaker 1: acl in the second week of production on this movie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then just kept making the movie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all of those people, all of the actors, everyone

390
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Speaker 2: who came out of like the eighties era, like seventies

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Speaker 2: and eighties era of like Hong Kong action movies. Those

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Speaker 2: people are so unbelievably tough, Like they don't they don't

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Speaker 2: have stunt doubles. I mean, people have seen small never dies.

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Speaker 2: I think it was the Bond movie she's in where

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Speaker 2: she's hanging off the side of a car and she

396
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Speaker 2: is actually physically hanging off the side of that car.

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Speaker 2: That car takes a wrong turn and she goes flying

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Speaker 2: and she she is just doing it right. Like all

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Speaker 2: these a lot of these people get really, really badly

400
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Speaker 2: hurt because I mean everything that is there is just

401
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Speaker 2: them actually physically doing the thing. So hey, they are

402
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Speaker 2: unbelievably impressive people.

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Speaker 3: I read or heard maybe in an interview with Angley

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Speaker 3: that later into filming Michelle, you'll broke her back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I also read that, and that in the final

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Speaker 1: scene where they're won't spoil it, I get for ten

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Speaker 1: more minutes, but where the lovers are together, they had

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Speaker 1: to angle that shot very carefully because Michelle's very obviously

409
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Speaker 1: broken leg was just like flopped over to the side.

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Speaker 1: It's like or like a cast or something. They were

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Speaker 1: just like she was in the trenches by the end.

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Speaker 1: They're like, we have to frame this shot so you

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Speaker 1: can't tell that we almost killed her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just I think this is partially a thing

415
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Speaker 2: that was possible in Hong Kong and probably wouldn't have

416
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Speaker 2: been possible in other places. Is because the labor standards

417
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Speaker 2: are really weak because everyone is really heavily invested in

418
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Speaker 2: like union busting, but the labor conditions on these sets

419
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Speaker 2: are up and it's horrible.

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Speaker 1: Damn god. Yeah, that's I mean, which is like true

421
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: across entertainment, but this I was like that you broke

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Speaker 1: her back and she still had to go to work,

423
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Speaker 1: like oh yeah there, Oh I had another thought, but

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Speaker 1: it's gone. It'll come back, we'll see anyway.

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Speaker 3: Well, so this fight is happening post this sword being stolen,

426
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Speaker 3: and Schulin hears the commotion and goes after the thief.

427
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,360
Speaker 3: There's this amazing fight sequence between them, and then Shulin

428
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 3: realizes whoever this is has trained at Wudan, hence these

429
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Speaker 3: special moves.

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Speaker 1: Anytime Shulin and Jenner fighting, it's just like it's a

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Speaker 1: good day. It's a good day for us, and.

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Speaker 3: There's so many great fight sequences, so eventually the thief

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Speaker 3: aka Jen, manages to escape with the sword. The next day,

434
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Speaker 3: everyone is upset and trying to figure out who the

435
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 3: thief was. Many suspect that it is Jade Fox, who

436
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 3: is thought to be hiding somewhere in Governor U's household.

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Speaker 3: Shulan pays a visit to Jen. It's not super clear

438
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 3: if she knows that Jen is a thief at this point,

439
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 3: but it seems like she but she is suspicious.

440
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, she does this thing. I think it's just the

441
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 2: scene where she intentionally knocks a teacup off the table

442
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 2: to get to catch it.

443
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 3: I think there's a later scene.

444
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm getting I'm getting no, no, no, so good.

445
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: Though, And I did, like I fell for the when

446
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: I saw it in theaters recently because I didn't remember

447
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: very much. I did fall for the fake out of

448
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: Jade Fox. Like originally you think like, oh, she's of

449
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: a different generation, she thinks that women shouldn't be sword fighting,

450
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: But then it's like no, she's she's the ultimate sword fighter,

451
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: and she thinks you should only be fighting for me, right, yes,

452
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: other fun fake mm hmm.

453
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 3: Anyway, so Shulin pays a visit to Jen, and Jen

454
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 3: is like, let's be best friends. You're my sister now,

455
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 3: and Schulin's like okay, And then Mubai shows up and

456
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 3: we learn that Shulin was engaged to a friend of

457
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 3: his who died, and she and Mubi grew close after that,

458
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 3: but they didn't want to disrespect the other man's memory,

459
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: so they never got together. Mubi's clearly trying to tell

460
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 3: Shulin his feelings, that he has feelings for her, but

461
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: they're interrupted and it doesn't happen.

462
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: And I loved Jen's reaction there, where she, at least

463
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: as it's translated, she's like, well, that sucks for the

464
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: guy who died, but like, what does that have to

465
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: do with you having sex today? It's like, yeah, yo,

466
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: good point, Jen.

467
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 3: Honestly, great point. Meanwhile, there's this police inspector and his

468
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: daughter who are trying to catch Jade Fox because Jade

469
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: Fox killed his wife. His wife, and Jade Fox sends

470
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 3: them a note saying we will settle this at midnight.

471
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,719
Speaker 3: So they meet up at midnight and battle, and we

472
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,959
Speaker 3: get that reveal that you were just talking about, Jamie,

473
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 3: that Jade Fox is a woman, specifically Jen's governess.

474
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: A really fun Bechtel test pass in this scene, let

475
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: me avenge my mother's death, You'll soon be like her,

476
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: you little whore, and you're like, well, imperfect metric, but

477
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: it has passed. Yeah, sure, nuts.

478
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 3: So we get the reveal of Jade Fox's true identity

479
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 3: and we come to realize that Jen is her disciple.

480
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 3: They've basically been like working and training together in secret

481
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 3: for I think ten years.

482
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: Yeh.

483
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 3: Mubai shows up to help with this fight and he

484
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 3: battle Jade Fox. We learn here that Jade Fox had

485
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 3: infiltrated Wudan, stole the secret manual, and poisoned Mubai's master,

486
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 3: and then she spent the last ten years teaching herself

487
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 3: to be a Budan fighter, but she's still no match

488
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 3: for Mubai. And then Jen shows up in her disguise

489
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 3: and fights him.

490
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: Well wait, there's that moment though, where it's like you

491
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: get a lot of important context for Jade Fox because

492
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, Jade Fox, Yeah, she's she's done crimes,

493
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: but I'm a lot of the time, I'm like, she

494
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: did what she had to.

495
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 3: Do, right. I was gonna save that for the discussion

496
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: because it's so steeped in gender.

497
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: She's like, oh, he was fine sleeping with me, but

498
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: he wouldn't teach me shit, so unfortunately he had to.

499
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: Go, so she had to kill him. Yes, so Jen

500
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 3: shows up and she's fighting Mubai and she is more

501
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 3: of a match for him, but then she and Jade

502
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: Fox escape after Jade Fox kills the police inspector. Shortly

503
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: after that, Mubai crosses paths with Jen again. Also, by now,

504
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 3: Schulan definitely knows that Jen is the thief slash Jade

505
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: Fox's disciple, and Mubi is like, Jen, you should be

506
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 3: my student. I will train you because you have so

507
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: much potential, but also you're messy, and she's like pass

508
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: and she runs away and meets up with Jade Fox,

509
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 3: but they argue because Jen isn't sure what to do

510
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 3: about her future, but she doesn't really want to pal

511
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 3: around with Jade Fox anymore, which upsets her, and like

512
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: Jade Fox is upset that Jen is more skilled than

513
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: her and that she kept some details and secrets of

514
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 3: the Wudan Manual from Jade Fox.

515
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: Ah, which is like A really, I don't know. Their

516
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: relationship is so interesting, I'm excited to talk about it.

517
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 3: Same. Yeah, then A man named Low played by Chang

518
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 3: Chen shows up in Jen's room and we cut to

519
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: a flashback where when Jen's family was traveling through the desert.

520
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: This flashback is so long.

521
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: Yes, I want I want to interject a little bit

522
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: to do the the second piece of very very important

523
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: subtitle thing that's going on here. Yes, So, okay. One

524
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: of the things that happens this would be a lot

525
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: is people will say something is happening in the West,

526
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: but the actual word they are saying is shing John. Now,

527
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: mark that down. That is going to be a very

528
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: important sort of ideology thing. You you you may you may,

529
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: you may know what Shan John is from the news

530
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: now about the the autonomous region of China where Muslims

531
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: are being put in camps, and you know, the sort

532
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: of general like people's war on terror stuff is going

533
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: on that that I think is important to what's going

534
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: on in this movie. We'll talk about that later. It

535
00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: isn't It is interesting that on the chooses to say

536
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: what like capital W West right and not tell you

537
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: quite what's going on. Yeah, there's there's stuff going on

538
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: there that's interesting.

539
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: Okay. I'm excited because I was, I mean and we'll

540
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: get back to this too, because I was trying to

541
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: do I mean, in the effort to research this movie historically,

542
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: only kind of makes it intentionally difficult because it could

543
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: happen at any point in a range of four hundred years.

544
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: And yeah, also, I think he's actually made it easier

545
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: to figure out that he thinks he does because of

546
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: some of the historical stuff.

547
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: Then really, Okay, Oh, I'm excited to talk about it.

548
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

549
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: Same. So we're in this flashback now where Jen's family

550
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 3: was traveling through the desert and attacked by bandits led

551
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: by Dark Cloud, whose real name is Low, who we

552
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 3: just saw.

553
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: He's the other character who has an actual Chinese name,

554
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: but they just translated as Low for some reason. I

555
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: don't know what they're doing with that. This one's less important,

556
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: I think.

557
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: So his gang pillages Governor use like convoy I guess,

558
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: and he steals Jen's comb, so she runs after him,

559
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: and after a lot of fighting and chasing, they end

560
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 3: up in his cave hide out where he has taken

561
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: her to like feed her and nurse her back to health,

562
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 3: but also taken her as a prisoner, and then they

563
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: end up kissing and having sex and now they're in love.

564
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 3: So there's that.

565
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, that's that.

566
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: We'll circle back to that.

567
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. One other thing I want to say is

568
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: that so Low thinks that Jen is Han Chinese and

569
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 2: she's not. She is Manchurian. Right, well, she's she's manchuw

570
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: that's a that that That's another interesting thing I think

571
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: is kind of important that we'll get into later. But

572
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: I guess the the mediate context for this is that,

573
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: so this is such an the Ching dynasty. The Ching

574
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: dynasty is not a Han dynasty, which is sort of

575
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: a kind of unusual. It's a there was the history

576
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: has been complicated. The very very cliff notes version of

577
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: it is that the previous Han dynasty's falling apart, and

578
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: they kind of like negotiate a handover to this Manchu

579
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: dynasty that's coming out of Manchuria in order to sort

580
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: of stop a peasant revolt from toppling both of them. Okay, yeah,

581
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: so that's that's why everyone has like that haircut. That's

582
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: the like all the guys of the haircut. It's like

583
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: the shaved bald head and then the long like punnytail

584
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: things like. That's like a specific Ching Dynasty thing imposed

585
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 2: by like the man choose on other people, got it?

586
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: Okay, So that actually does narrow down the period of

587
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: time this movie takes place in.

588
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: Very Yes, it's yeah, well we'll narrow down some more

589
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: in the next.

590
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: Oh, it's so excited you're here.

591
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 3: Yes, okay. So then we cut back to the present.

592
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 3: Lowe has come to Picking to stop Jen from getting married,

593
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: but she's like, our relation is over. Sorry. But the

594
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 3: next day, during a like procession slash ceremony I think

595
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 3: for the upcoming wedding. Yeah, Low like wedding crashes it basically,

596
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: I mean that's one way to describe what happens. And

597
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 3: a big ruckus is caused, and Shulan and Mubai are

598
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: like they like pull Low aside and they're like, what

599
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: are you doing, Like if you actually love her, get

600
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: out of here and go to Wu Dan and wait there. Meanwhile,

601
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: Jen has run away and she goes to this tavern

602
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 3: disguised as a man named Master Long. A bunch of

603
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: men try to mess with her, but she just like

604
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 3: kicks all of their asses, like dozens of men. Incredible sequence.

605
00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: They're all like really sort of incredibly funny, like stereotyped different,

606
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: like like a different kung fu guys, Like there's the

607
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: guy who has a giant club, There's a guy who's

608
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: a monk. There's the guy the first guy is like,

609
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: this guy is like I am iron arms long, and

610
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: then like yeah, she she like goes his sleeve and

611
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: there's just like literally an iron like brace on his arm.

612
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: So that's why his arms so smart. It's so good.

613
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: It was so enjoyable, and she's just like not only

614
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 3: like physically dominating them, but like hurling these incredible insults

615
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: at them along the way.

616
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so quippy. That scene is like the funniest scene.

617
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: I mean it's like not a super funny movie, but there.

618
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: But every time Jen is fighting, she just like her

619
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: inner stand up comedian comes out, like something comes alive.

620
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: There's a scene equipping I think it's the first scene

621
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: when she and move By fight and he's like, how

622
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 3: did you learn that move? And she's like, I'm just

623
00:33:53,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 3: playing around. Okay. So Jen has bested these dozens of.

624
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: Them, all five hundred.

625
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 2: Well, like so they're they're in this like tea house,

626
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: and this tea house is when I say destroyed at

627
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: the end of this. It's not like, oh they broke

628
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: it to like giant sections of like it's like a

629
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: multi story thing and hold in the center, Like giant

630
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: sections of the building have collapsed from how hard she's

631
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: broken people through them. It's amazing and it makes well.

632
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 3: It makes me feel bad for whoever owns that tea house.

633
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: And it's just like, yeah, but I's gonna pay for that, you.

634
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 2: Know, but it's you own a Kung Fu tea house, right,

635
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: Like this is good. This has to be like factored

636
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 2: into the budget.

637
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: Like they're well insured. They're definitely really well inshured.

638
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: Oh I want, I want to There's one more really

639
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: funny scene right after this. There's this scene that has

640
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 2: like every all like like the the hundred people she's

641
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: defeated are all like standing around in this crowd, and

642
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: all of them are like wearing casts and like split breed.

643
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so funny, right, because Shulin and Mubai are like

644
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 3: kind of questioning people around to find out where Jen is.

645
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: But then Jen finds Shulin and they get into an

646
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: argument because Jen has caused so much trouble for like

647
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 3: everyone around. So the two of them have this huge

648
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 3: incredible sword fight.

649
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: Jen for for all of her like ability and power

650
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: is still such a teenager in a lot of scenes

651
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: where anytime she's confronted about like, so, what about those

652
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: five hundred guys you just killed, she's like what, They're

653
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: just like.

654
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: Excuse me, fair, I don't think she killed any of them.

655
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: I think I think they're all fine because they're all

656
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: kung fu people and therefore they have incredible ability to

657
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: just get tossed around, right.

658
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: They also have good insurance. They're good.

659
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this amazing sword fight is happening. Eventually Mubai

660
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: shows up. Then he and Jen are flying through and

661
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 3: fighting in the trees. Eventually, Jen is saved by Jade Fox,

662
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 3: who takes her into a cave. Shulin and Mubai follow

663
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 3: her there, only to find out Jade Fox has drugged

664
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 3: Jen and intends to kill her because she feels betrayed

665
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: by Jen. Jade Fox shows back up, Mubai and her

666
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 3: attack each other. Jade Fox is killed, Mubai is poisoned.

667
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 1: Jade Fox gives a Shakesaurian send off, ooh great, can't

668
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: wait to talk about that.

669
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he's been poisoned and they think maybe there's

670
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 3: no antidote, but Jen is like, no, there is and

671
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 3: I know it. She wants to help them to redeem herself,

672
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 3: so she leaves to get the ingredients and prepare the antidote.

673
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 3: But by the time she gets back, it's too late.

674
00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 3: Mubai dies in Shulin's arms after they have perfer fest

675
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 3: their love for each other.

676
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: There's those of those kind of free things, like he

677
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 2: like dies and well he knows the thing where he

678
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: was like, ah, this is like my final breath. And

679
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: then he like dies, but then she like kisses him,

680
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: and then he's like alive for a few more seconds.

681
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: Don't underestimate Lubaye's horniness. Horniness sustains him.

682
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it gives you just a few extra seconds.

683
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has a brief snow white moment. He's back, baby.

684
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Jen has returned. It seems like Shulin might

685
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: kill her, but she spares her life and says, promise

686
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: me one thing and never let go of that promise.

687
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: Whatever path you take, be true to yourself. And Jen

688
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 3: is like, I'll never let go of that promise, and

689
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 3: then she goes to the Wu Dang Mountains to reunite

690
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: with Low and then the movie ends. And like I said,

691
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 3: I might I think the ending is maybe too metaphorical

692
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 3: for me to understand. But she jumps off the mountain

693
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 3: in reference to a legend that Lowe had told her earlier.

694
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 3: It has been interpreted in different ways, but the movie

695
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: ends with her jumping off the mountain the end.

696
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then low is like, why did I tell

697
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: my girlfriend this story about jumping off the bridge?

698
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 3: Damn well, you do this.

699
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: I have regrets the one thing you never do.

700
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 3: So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and

701
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: we will come back to discuss. Okay, we are back.

702
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: I'd love to just jump right into the historical context,

703
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: if that's cool with you, Miya, yeah.

704
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So a lot of what's happening in this movie,

705
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: so okay. So one of the you can't even really

706
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: call it a sublime it's like a third of the

707
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 2: movie is sort of about the West. So the U family,

708
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: who were like Gen's like father is a governor and

709
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: he his thing is that he made his bones like

710
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: in the West, right, and what this is is that. Okay.

711
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: So in the seventeen seventies, the Qing dynasty does this

712
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: push into Shing John. They do like basically around the

713
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 2: time the US is being formed, they do this invasion

714
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: of the state that had been in Qing John and

715
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: they do a genocide so that the people who had

716
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 2: been ruling the state were like a sort of like

717
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: a Mongol speaking people, they are basically all dead. The

718
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 2: Qing dynasty exterminates them. They do a genocide, and then

719
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: after that they bring in sort of like Han and

720
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: weaker settlers to sort of recolonize the land of these

721
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: people who they've killed. And that's sort of the backdrop

722
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 2: of this whole thing, which is that the Qing dynasty,

723
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: So the Ching dynasty is the last dynasty of China, right,

724
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: they're the people who are eventually going to be not

725
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: off by I guess the nineteen eleven revolution, but there's

726
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: people who lose, like the Opium warst the British that

727
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: the people yeah, so, and that that's usually the part

728
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 2: of the Ching Chines see everyone remembers, is the part

729
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 2: where they're just sort of like getting kicked around by

730
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: a bunch of other imperial powers. But before the eighteen

731
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: like really like the eighteen forties, the Qing dynasty is

732
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 2: a a really really brutal and expansionist empire. They're they're

733
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: the people who are they're like they're really the first

734
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 2: people to like establish Chinese control over Taiwan. They try

735
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: to push into Tibet. They're pushing basically like they're they're

736
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: pushing westward away from the sort of like traditional quote unquote, well,

737
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, it's hard to say traditional here because

738
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 2: the Chinese dynasties controlled just complete, almost completely random territories

739
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 2: at different times. But they're pushing into places that are

740
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,959
Speaker 2: like not han like very distinctly like they're pushing into

741
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 2: places that are usually Muslim, and this creates the situation

742
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 2: and where you you know, you have Shing Jan or

743
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: sort of the west that they're talking about, which is

744
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: it's this is this is China sort of frontier, right,

745
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: it's kind of unruly. Their control over it isn't great

746
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: because it's you know, it's it's really hard to do

747
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: force projection like that far away it's deserts, it's planes.

748
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: But you know, but there's some very interesting things like

749
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: part a lot of some of them, like the roof

750
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 2: shots you get in this movie are like shot in

751
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 2: a room Chi which is this the sort of capital

752
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: city of u Shing John and you know, and so

753
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 2: I mean, this is also question, like this helps date

754
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: the movie, right, Like, it's pretty clearly like after the

755
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: Conquest but before well, I mean, okay, so there's another

756
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: interesting thing here. Sorry, I'm sort of like going.

757
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: On no, this is all very helpful to context.

758
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: So on Lee, when he is discussing this movie, is

759
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: talking about how this is his like dream of what

760
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 2: China is, right because and this is another thing. Okay,

761
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: So another thing I think is important about this is

762
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: that on Lie is from a very very specific generation

763
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: of Taiwanese people, which is actually like the generation that

764
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: like my like my family comes from. His family's way

765
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 2: closer like is so okay, So there's there's a Chinese

766
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 2: civil war from nineteen forty five nineteen forty nine, right.

767
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: Right, which his parents escape from where they survived.

768
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, But so they're on the side of the KMT,

769
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: which is the Nationalist Party, which is this like I

770
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: don't know that that's a civil war where there are

771
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: no good guys. Really like the KMT is this right

772
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: wing like Narco death squad party. Basically they've allied with Hitler.

773
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 2: They suck, Yeah, I mean, they're awful. They are going

774
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: to do a lot of there, They're kind of like

775
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: the first prototype of like a new model of like

776
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 2: right wing narco anti communists like death squad state. You're

777
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: gonna see in like Guatemala and Al Salvador and they're

778
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: like deliberately exporting this stuff. And so like only grows

779
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: up in this so the but you know, the people

780
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 2: who are aligned with the KMT like flee like flee

781
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: the civil war tr Taiwan. My family does this too. Now.

782
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 2: The different there is that my my grandpa was a

783
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 2: paper boys. He was not like that. He was not

784
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: like a KFD guy on leave, like grows up in

785
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: like a village for like military dependence, like the children

786
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: of people in the army. So he has a very

787
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: so he's part of this generation in Taiwan that like

788
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: I'd call him like the gloomy Dong brats because they're

789
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: the kids of the people. But yeah, and it's it's

790
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: they have a very very weird relationship with China. Because

791
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: like if you're a kid in the generation, like my

792
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: mom was like under this too, like you know, you'll

793
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 2: be like a seven year old, right and you'll be

794
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: like in school, you will be singing songs about how

795
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: one day you're going to reclaim the motherland because again

796
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: this is like a horrified military edctatorship. Yeah, and and

797
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: so they have this, they have this very weird conception

798
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: of what China is, right, and like a lot of

799
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 2: this movie is also it's based on like specifically like

800
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: mandarin language kung fu movie from Hong Kong, which is

801
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: another kind of export that happens because there's all of

802
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: these So most of the Canton people flee to Taiwan,

803
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: but some of them flee to Hong Kong. But those

804
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: people are Mandarin speakers and not Cantonese speakers like most

805
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: of the people in Hong Kong. And so there's this

806
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: sort of like mark like this is sort of like

807
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: very specific kind of kung fu movie that emerges that's

808
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: like Mandarin speaking that's mostly designed for like the the

809
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: manage speaking people in Hong Kong and like the Taiwanese audience.

810
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: And so he has this weird kind of i don't know,

811
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: like a very weird understanding of like his image of

812
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: China is interesting and kind of bizarre.

813
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 1: I mean that's an extremely specific lens to be bringing. Yeah.

814
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's interesting too because it's like like this

815
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: is something that like I'm like one generation removed from this, right,

816
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 2: So like I kind of like like I look at that,

817
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: I look at like ugly, and I'm like, oh okay,

818
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 2: like I get where he usually get what's going on here?

819
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: You're you're you're you have weird dasp right angst about

820
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: China because you're Chinese but you didn't grow up there

821
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: and your family is sort of it's Taiwanese, but you

822
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,479
Speaker 2: have this complicated relationship this you know. And he also

823
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: ends up going to the US, And so I was

824
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 2: thinking this last like, ah, yes, I see, he has

825
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: the direct he has the diaspora anxiety.

826
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 3: Well, that context is also interesting when you consider that

827
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: this movie is a multinational co production between companies in China, Taiwan,

828
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 3: Hong Kong, and the US. So companies from several different

829
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 3: regions are coming together to make a movie that's also

830
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 3: going to be widely released in these different regions.

831
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of wonder, I mean, and anytime Mia

832
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: to you, does that feel like a conflict or I

833
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: guess I just like always wonder what the conversations between

834
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: those production companies have to be in order for this

835
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: movie to come out.

836
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: Well, so for me, the thing that's really interesting about

837
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 2: this is if you look at the sort of arc

838
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 2: of I can't play I'm talking about Chinese developmental politics

839
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: on the film podcast, but okay, I'm gonna go to

840
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: barrel through this, which is a little bit of Okay.

841
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 2: So China is very very isolated from international capital from

842
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: about the like mid nineteen fifties until really the eighties,

843
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: and even then not really until the nineties. But when

844
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: China opens back up to capital markets, they tap into

845
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: this thing called a Bamboo network, which is this network

846
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: of sort of like Chinese capital based on sort of

847
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: family lines that has been like sort of spread out

848
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: across East Asia in the US. And so the way

849
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 2: this process works is you get a bunch of money

850
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 2: from like, you know, people like people who were rich

851
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 2: who fled China who end up either in the US

852
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 2: or they ended up in Taiwan, and that money flows

853
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 2: through Hong Kong and then it goes through this sort

854
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: of like currency control capital gate thing, and then that

855
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: money gets injected back into the Chinese economy. And this

856
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 2: is how a bunch of the sort of like Chinese

857
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: economic miraical stuff happens. It's funded by this capital that

858
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: had been sort of taken overseas by people fleeing the

859
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 2: civil war. And if you look, if you look at

860
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 2: the companies who are involved in this, right, these are

861
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: all companies from the places that are directly along the

862
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: paths of sort of the bamboom network. Right. You have

863
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 2: an American company, which is sort of one end of

864
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: the sort of capital spigot. Right, you have Taiwanese company,

865
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: you have a Hong Kong company, and you have the

866
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: Chinese state down industry. And this is you are directly

867
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: tracing the path of capital that is the thing that

868
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 2: sort of reindustrializes China after this period, and we sort

869
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: of like turns China like capitalists again after this sort

870
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 2: of period where it hadn't been. And I think that's

871
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of debate about how authentically Chinese

872
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: this movie is, and I think that's a lot less

873
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: interesting than the sort of economic configurations that are what

874
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: brings China. Because this movie is also released like a

875
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: year before China gets admitted into WTO again, I think

876
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 2: it's either on let me let me check my dates

877
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 2: on that. Sorry, the movie.

878
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, the movie comes out in two thousand.

879
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's one. Yeah, so it's like it's like

880
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: a year before or China like really like completely fully

881
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: reinterest the economy, and I don't know, I think I

882
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: think there's okay. So this is also my explanation of

883
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: the ending of the movie. Is this capital stuff, which

884
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: is okay. So I think what's going on at the

885
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 2: end of the movie is that Angle knows that he

886
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: has to sell this movie both to a bunch of

887
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 2: like American conservatives, American liberals, and then also Chinese reactionaries

888
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: and also Chinese liberals and the sort of holdouts of

889
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: whatever communists are left, because that there are actual, like

890
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: in two thousand, there are still like communists in China, right,

891
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 2: like there aren't many of them, but they're still around.

892
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 2: And in order to do that, he has an ending

893
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: that deliberately can be read in feminist or anti feminist ways.

894
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: Interesting, okay, And this is like this.

895
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: Is my sort of crank theory about it. But like,

896
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, you can read Jen jumping off the cliff

897
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: as like, oh, she's realized that she's strayed from like

898
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 2: her like duties and obligations and she can't bear it anymore.

899
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: In so she like kills herself. You can also read

900
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 2: it as like, well, she's fulfilling the thing of the

901
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: myth the man jumping off the cliff. You know, so

902
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: this is how she fulfills her dream. But outside of

903
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: patriarch expectations, there's a reading of it where she's just

904
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 2: running away because she can use cheekong and like falling,

905
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: you can't if you can change your weight to zero

906
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: or like negative weight, how are you going to die

907
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: from falling?

908
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: Right? So she's unkillable?

909
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And so I think I think Onley deliberately

910
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: makes the ending like this so that it can be

911
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: sold so many different markets, different markets.

912
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I buy it. I that that is

913
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: first of all, thank you for all that extremely helpful context,

914
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: because it is like Only is a fascinating figure to me.

915
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean I I like his movies, except for his

916
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: Hulk movie, which I feel like, yeah, you know that

917
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: was Look, everyone's allowed to flop, it's fine. I remember

918
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: I saw that movie in theaters and I was like Edward,

919
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: even as even as like a nine year old, I

920
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: was like Edward Norton, I don't buy it. In any case, yeah,

921
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: Only has a fascinating career. I didn't understand the context

922
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: of how he grew up and what his relationship to

923
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: China would be. And this goes back to Mia. Have

924
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: you read Red Carpet. It's like a book that came

925
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: out last year, but it basically traces the relationship between

926
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: the Chinese movie industry and the American movie industry throughout

927
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: the nineties and two thousands, and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon

928
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: comes up in a section of it. Because this was

929
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: I mean, this movie was a huge hit in the West.

930
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: It was not a hit in China at all. True

931
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: Lies was the big American that's funny.

932
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: James Cameron.

933
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: James Cameron, he doesn't flop even when he should. I

934
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: haven't seen True Lives, so I can't speak to it.

935
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 3: It's pretty fun.

936
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: But this movie was intended to because there was like

937
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: this whole period throughout the nineties and the two thousands

938
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: where there was like this sort of like pie in

939
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: the sky dream between international movie industries. So it's like,

940
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna find a movie that everyone likes. We're gonna

941
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 1: do it, and I think, I mean, for a number

942
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: of reasons, including to oversimplify Americans are racist and hate

943
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: to read. There are very few international movies that cross

944
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: over into the US. This was one of them, but

945
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: it was not a hit in China at all. It

946
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: was mostly reviewed as either boring, derivative, confusing, offensive, Yeah.

947
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: And also also everyone everyone's really bad that again he

948
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: forced a bunch of actors who don't speak Bandarin to

949
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: do an entire movie in Mandarin, a language they don't speak,

950
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 2: which is like this, this happens multiple times to Michelle Yo,

951
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: and she deserves better than this shit. Like, I just

952
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: it's so infuriating.

953
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: It's not the actor's fault at all. Yeah, it's like

954
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: it's I mean, especially because Michelle Yo is just a

955
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,959
Speaker 1: treasure to all the fact that she had, she broke

956
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: her back, and like they didn't even set her up

957
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: for success in the lines like what are you doing?

958
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this is like I think this

959
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 2: is a diaspora brain thing too, right, because he has this,

960
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 2: you know, he has this whole sort of like she's

961
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: trying to like create this sort of like one China,

962
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 2: one tin of out right, but he's trying to create

963
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 2: this sort of like this like mythical China that on

964
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: the one hand never existed, but on the other hand

965
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: is sort of like excessible or comprehensible to everyone, you know.

966
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: But he, but he runs into the classic trap of

967
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: thinking that China is a real thing, which is that

968
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 2: like China, Okay, this is this is gonna be, this

969
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: is gonna be the argument that I make that gets

970
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: everyone really mad, but I.

971
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: Go for it.

972
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 2: Okay, there is there is a there was a very

973
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: very good argument that like China as like a single

974
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: unified thing is is basically a European economic category and

975
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 2: has nothing to you know, there's a lot of accounts.

976
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 2: You can read accounts in like sixty hundreds right of Portuguese.

977
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 2: Like merchants will go we'll go into parts of China

978
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: and they will ask people about China, and no one

979
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: has any idea what they're talking about, right, because you know,

980
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 2: if you're living in China, what you're living under is

981
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 2: like a series of sort of like okay, well you

982
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 2: have like a king, right and your king prajuice leagues

983
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: to like another guy who pledges the legion to the emperor, right,

984
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: Like you're not sort of like that. That conception of

985
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 2: China as like like a unified a single unified entity,

986
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: that that's a very Western concept because this is this

987
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: is how sort of like Western traders understand it because

988
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: they don't really get that it's not like a single

989
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: unified entity, and so they project that onto what China is.

990
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: But then you get this this sort of rebound thing

991
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: where China gets taken over by like rivaling clicks of nationalists. Right.

992
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 2: But the problem is, like you know, both the CCP

993
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 2: communists and the k MT are both like Western their

994
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 2: Western educated intellectuals, and so their conception of nationalism and

995
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: what China is like is the Western version of it.

996
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: And so they they come back and now like everyone

997
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 2: thinks that this is sort of like naturally what China is,

998
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: and that like you know, people people are projecting back like, oh,

999
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,919
Speaker 2: there's this continuous state that goes for five thousand years,

1000
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 2: and it's like like it's a state that's in it's

1001
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 2: in different places with different ethnic groups, run by different people.

1002
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: It splinters into multiple states many times. People have this

1003
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: sort of like this this sort of nationalist mythos like

1004
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 2: takes over and I think this is actually this isn't

1005
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: I think importance to the fact that like what hin

1006
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 2: Jon is doing in this movie and what the sort

1007
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 2: of like the the quote unquote like ethnic other is

1008
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: doing here where like on these using these people who

1009
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 2: are not Han, who come from sort of like the hinterlands,

1010
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 2: who gen like Jen literally called Lowa barbarian like the

1011
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: first time they be right, And that is a very

1012
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 2: that that is a very classic Chinese thing, and I

1013
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 2: guess to be fair isn't the right word. I also

1014
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 2: think that Europeans are barbarians, which I think is more

1015
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 2: accurate than everyone else I think is a barbarian. But

1016
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 2: you know, she's using them as this sort of like

1017
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: other against which Hanness is defined and where you know,

1018
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: because like because Lowe is the guy who's like, oh,

1019
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 2: well you should like, you know, we should get buried together.

1020
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,720
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be bound by the sort of like restrictions

1021
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 2: of patriarchal like Han society or whatever. You should run

1022
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 2: off with me.

1023
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 3: But then but then he like claims her as his property,

1024
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 3: saying multiple times like she's mine.

1025
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah there, And there's that I felt like weirdly like

1026
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: flirtally presented line of like well, if I was going

1027
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: to rape you, I would have done it by now.

1028
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: And you're just like yeah, it's like this, I mean,

1029
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: this is truly because I have very little of this context,

1030
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: and so now understanding more of of the historical context,

1031
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: I think it's like I'm curious what your opinion is

1032
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: because in interviews about this movie, Onley was very very

1033
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: vague about when it took place. He like, when asked,

1034
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: could you be more specific of when it is? And

1035
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: he's like no. And it feels like this movie, I mean,

1036
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 1: it's like not surprising to me that it wasn't very

1037
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: popular outside of the West, because it feels like in

1038
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 1: some ways obviously not all, but that like it it's

1039
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: made with a Western lens or it fits in very

1040
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: cleanly with like the West's like just under education on

1041
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: Chinese history and what like. I mean, I think your

1042
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: average like American would watch this movie and have no

1043
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: idea when it takes place, and have no idea, you know,

1044
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 1: what any of the context would be for it, and

1045
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 1: so take.

1046
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 3: It and just like assume like, oh, this is so

1047
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 3: historically accurate like this, because it seems it seems flying well.

1048
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing I would say about that is

1049
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: it's not like it's not I mean, like okay, so

1050
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: like obviously like there's there's there's depiction problems going on here.

1051
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 2: But it's also not not true that like the Ching

1052
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 2: have this whole sort of frontier esque thing going on

1053
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: in the West where they're sort of fighting these kind

1054
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 2: of insurgencies and there's this sort of I think it

1055
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 2: becomes clearer what's happening historically now than it was in

1056
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: two thousands, because in like in two thousands, this movie

1057
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: is a pre nine to eleven movie, right, And I

1058
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 2: think that's actually really important in the way that Shing

1059
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 2: John is portrayed, because I mean, things don't get like

1060
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: as bad as they are now in Chijon until like

1061
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: the Race riots, and that's like two nine eleven when

1062
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: theyse get like really really bad. But also like this

1063
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: is this is a period like right before the world,

1064
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 2: like right before the War on Terror like gets taken

1065
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: up by everyone, and it gets taken up by by

1066
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 2: China like as much as it does by the US, right,

1067
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: I mean, the state of the state of emergency in

1068
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: in Shing John is called the People's War on Terror,

1069
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 2: And you know, like there were like people from who

1070
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 2: are like nominally at least supposed to be from East

1071
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: Turkmenistine separatist groups who the US tortures in Guantanamo for

1072
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 2: the CCP, and I think I think it becomes more

1073
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 2: clear what really and only I think is also deliberately doing.

1074
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: He's he's deliberately drawing parallels between this sort of and

1075
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 2: you know, Shan John also it literally means new frontier,

1076
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 2: right like that, That's what like the word means. And

1077
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 2: he's he's deliberately drawing parallels through the cinematic language to

1078
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 2: the sort of like American frontier, right like that when

1079
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 2: when when Lowe's band is attacked, they do they do

1080
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 2: the thing where all the horses are like circling around

1081
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: the caravan, right Yeah. And he's actually like more right

1082
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 2: about that than I think people give him credit for,

1083
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 2: because that that is, like it is a very similar

1084
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: set of the colonial process that goes on when the

1085
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 2: ching marched through Shing John as what happens when you know,

1086
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,959
Speaker 2: like when when the US is basically doing the same

1087
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 2: sort of like death march kind of insertaincy thing that

1088
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 2: they're that they're fighting. So I don't know, I think

1089
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: I think I think he he accidentally discovered something that

1090
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 2: was going to be very important to sort of like

1091
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: Chinese nationalism, which is that a lot of modern Chinese

1092
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 2: nationalism is about this resentment that the Qing Empire like

1093
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to be an empire and that it was

1094
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 2: sort of dismantled by Western imperialists because you know, there

1095
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 2: was you know, an as part of like inter imperialist

1096
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 2: rivalry stuff, right right, And whether he knew it or not,

1097
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 2: and I don't know, there's something that he sort of

1098
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 2: yets maybe accidentally maybe not about how this nationalism functions,

1099
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 2: about how Hanness is going to be sort of like

1100
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 2: constructed against this sort of like uncivilized barbarian way that

1101
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 2: they see, like specifically Muslim people who live in this

1102
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: region that he's gotten before everyone else.

1103
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: Kind of Yeah, he's good there. I'm so I am

1104
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: fascinated by him. And also, I mean, if you look

1105
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: at the screenwriting credits and the source you know, the

1106
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: source material, it's also a blend of it's the same

1107
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: as the production companies. You have a Taiwanese screenwriter who

1108
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: did a draft, you have an American screenwriter who did

1109
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 1: a draft. And it's based on a Chinese usha romance.

1110
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 2: Novel, which which that's another thing I want to talk

1111
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 2: about a little bit because that book a it's weirdly

1112
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 2: more trans than this one. Oh, like do tell Gen

1113
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: spends a lot more time as like kind of a

1114
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 2: guy or like kind of someone in between gender when

1115
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 2: Gen's off being a kung fu wandering nomad who beats

1116
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 2: up people in tea houses. But there's another kind of

1117
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 2: interesting aspect of this, which is that like, okay, so

1118
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 2: the author of the books that this is based off of,

1119
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 2: he gets declared like an old intellectual or like an

1120
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 2: old literati guy, and so he gets basically like sent

1121
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 2: to a camp by the CCP. And there's this I

1122
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 2: think of a kind of interest arc of like I

1123
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: don't know, the CCP going from throwing this guy in

1124
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 2: prison for being a kung fu writer to and he's

1125
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: like like hated basically by the Chinese left for like

1126
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 2: a very long time, just sort of like left academics. Yeah,

1127
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 2: for being like a reactionary.

1128
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: I real that he was like forbidden from releasing new books,

1129
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: like he was sent off to be a school teacher

1130
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: instead of like occupying the any sort of like lipspace.

1131
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 2: It's yeah, but then you know, but there's this interesting

1132
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 2: thing where like he gets he gets sort of rehabilitated.

1133
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: Actually I don't I don't know if he's specifically rehabilitated

1134
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 2: in the eighties like that. There are some people who

1135
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 2: are like, like the party is like, oh, hey, we

1136
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 2: did this person wrong. And okay, I'm not going to

1137
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 2: say that part. There's a hidden take that you may

1138
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 2: unlock at some point later. Yeah, but then you know,

1139
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 2: but by the time you get the ninety two thousands,

1140
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 2: like this guy is this is the person that you know,

1141
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: the sort of like state media thing is like, oh,

1142
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 2: we can sell this interesting.

1143
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So it is, I mean, because it does seem

1144
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: that he from what I can tell, he you know,

1145
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: dies in relative obscurity. And then it's like most of

1146
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 1: this is posthumous. And I saw that his widow met

1147
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: with Onley during the production of the movie. Yeah, I

1148
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: guess what do you what do you make of that

1149
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 1: of this work kind of being like reclaimed and uplifted

1150
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: twenty five years later.

1151
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 2: I don't know. This is he has a really weird

1152
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 2: relationship with like this isn't really classic Chinese leadership, but

1153
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 2: there has a weird relationship with classic Chinese literature where

1154
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,919
Speaker 2: there's this thing at the very beginning, like right after

1155
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 2: the revolution, where the party makes a bunch of they

1156
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 2: turn a bunch of like classic Chinese books into like

1157
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 2: basically like comic books so that like regular people can

1158
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 2: read them, but they'll have like annotations in like like

1159
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 2: water Bargain with the story about these like bandits who

1160
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 2: are like stealing from the rich. They have this thing

1161
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 2: of like, well, these people, these people failed because they

1162
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: didn't like they didn't have the like the central guidance

1163
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 2: of the party to follow stuff. So there's all this

1164
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 2: weird stuff going on, but they have this like complicated

1165
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 2: relationship with this kind of I don't know if national

1166
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 2: is even the right term, but this kind of like

1167
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean. One of the things that

1168
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 2: happens during reform and opening is that like so at

1169
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 2: least rhetorically, the CCP had been very very very anti Confucianism,

1170
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 2: which is like one of their few sort of like no,

1171
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 2: you're right about that. One's like you know, I mean,

1172
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: like one of the one of the first things they

1173
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 2: do when they come to power is it had been

1174
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 2: legal to like sell your wife.

1175
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 4: And.

1176
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: Was like no, like this sucks that you cannot sell

1177
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 2: your wife, like you know, right, So like like this

1178
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 2: is the kind of like like this is the kind

1179
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 2: of patriarchal society that like you're dealing with here, and

1180
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 2: you know, the CCP ultimately fails for a lot of

1181
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 2: reasons to really fundamentally undo all of the genders like

1182
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 2: patriarchy that had been embedded in Chinese study that they

1183
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 2: where at least nominally trying to get rid of. But

1184
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: one of the consequences of that is that there's this

1185
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 2: way in which gender egalitarianism becomes sort of like conflated

1186
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 2: with the Maoist project. And so when reform and opening happens,

1187
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 2: there's this rejection of sort of really forward and like

1188
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 2: the cultural revolution, there's this like revival of like it

1189
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 2: takes a little bit. There's like a revival of Confucianism.

1190
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 2: There's like a revival of like traditional gender norms. You

1191
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 2: get you get the one child policy, which is this

1192
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 2: very sort of like militant to draconian sort of like

1193
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 2: intervention of the state into like reproductive politics. And I

1194
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: don't know, I think I think part of them, like

1195
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 2: ZCP being willing to make movies like this has to

1196
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 2: do with them them like sort of being willing to

1197
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: go back and sort of like older mythologies that aren't

1198
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 2: really communists, but are nationalists?

1199
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 1: M okay. Interesting, that's I'm trying to think of, like

1200
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: of another another example of that of something that was

1201
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: oppressed in its time and then is later sort of.

1202
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: I mean, there's plenty of them, but I don't I

1203
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: have a functioning brain at this time.

1204
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 3: Who does?

1205
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 1: Okay? Is there any other historical context that you wanted

1206
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: to discuss me? Is there anything you wanted to discuss Caitlin.

1207
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 3: Yes, but first let's take a break and come back

1208
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 3: for more discussion. And we're back. And so I wanted

1209
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,439
Speaker 3: to Since we talked a little bit about the kind

1210
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 3: of like production of this movie and how it was

1211
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 3: a collaborative effort I think meant to appeal to a

1212
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 3: bunch of different markets, and that mostly only appealed to

1213
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 3: a Western market, I wanted to talk a little bit

1214
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 3: about how the movie was marketed in the US. So

1215
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 3: I'm basing this off of the official trailer from Sony

1216
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 3: Pictures Classics, which was the company that distributed the movie

1217
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 3: in North America. And so basically the trailer frames the

1218
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 3: male characters as the more prominent and important characters who

1219
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 3: are driving the narrative, which, as we will discuss shortly,

1220
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 3: is not how the movie plays out. So for example,

1221
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 3: like the voiceover is like the story of a hero,

1222
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 3: and we see images of Mubai.

1223
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 2: He's in like eight total scenes. I know.

1224
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 3: This movie it gets worse. So it's the story of

1225
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 3: a hero, and we see images of Mubai the woman

1226
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 3: he loved, than we see images of Shulin, a daring outlaw,

1227
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 3: images of Low, who's in the movie even less. And

1228
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,919
Speaker 3: then a princess destined to become a warrior. And that's

1229
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 3: when we see Jen. Mubai is framed as the protagonist

1230
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 3: of the movie. Shulin is reduced to his love interest,

1231
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 3: ignores so much of what her character is, and then

1232
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 3: Jen is like defined as a princess destined to become

1233
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 3: a warrior, which is I guess what that story is

1234
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 3: kind of yeah, I got a princess. And then Low

1235
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 3: is framed as a much more prominent character than he

1236
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 3: actually is. Similarly, the poster places Chew Young Fat in

1237
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 3: the front. His image is the largest. Jen is in

1238
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 3: the back most because it's sort of like layered images

1239
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 3: of those four characters. Jen is in the back. Low

1240
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 3: is on the poster for some reason. Also, why is

1241
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 3: he in the trailer, Like it's it's all this stuff,

1242
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 3: so I think that will like transition into the conversation

1243
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 3: about and.

1244
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: Also how that I mean, how the I guess the

1245
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: last contextual thing I wanted to talk about was how

1246
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: this movie was. This movie was, like we already said,

1247
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: received extremely well in the West. It was nominated for

1248
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 1: ten Academy Awards, none for acting, which is interesting. And

1249
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: also I saw a there's a YouTuber I really love

1250
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: be kind Rewind who did a cool retrospective of Michelle

1251
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeo's career and mentions multiple times in the video something

1252
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 1: I never thought about, which is that there should be

1253
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 1: an oscar for best stunt work. Why is there not

1254
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: an oscar for best stuntwork?

1255
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 2: Because they don't want to pay stunt for people.

1256
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: Then they would have to pay them. But just the

1257
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:30,759
Speaker 1: way that Crouching Tiger Hiden Dragon was received by Western

1258
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: movie critics, so in the year two thousand, majority white men,

1259
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 1: the way that they write about this movie is very

1260
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: particular in a way that I've seen argued seems telling

1261
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 1: to how this movie works well with Western audiences, where

1262
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,800
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this is actually the greatest, you know,

1263
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 1: martial arts movie I've ever seen. It's like well kind

1264
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 1: of because it's like partially for you. But you know,

1265
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 1: Stephen Holden at The New York Times said that this

1266
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 1: movie plucks Hong Kong style action adventure out of its

1267
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: generic niche and lifts it into elegant, lyrical, cinematic poetry.

1268
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:11,719
Speaker 1: And you're just like, okay, just say what you're trying

1269
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 1: to say the first truly high brow martial arts film.

1270
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 1: So it's just obnoxious. And I love to talk about

1271
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: New York Times film critics as some of the most

1272
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 1: I mean all of the New York Times really, but

1273
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 1: their film section historically has just been people pretty dire. Yeah,

1274
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:38,639
Speaker 1: all right, anyways, let's talk about the movie.

1275
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 3: So despite what the marketing of this movie in the US,

1276
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 3: what have you think? Women are driving the narrative. They

1277
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 3: are the most active characters, Schulann Jen and Jade Fox

1278
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 3: in particular. The men are the more secondary characters.

1279
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: Jade Fox makes more sense on the poster than Low

1280
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 1: for sure. Also with the Western movie sorry, I just

1281
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: like but in an additional point, just to sort of

1282
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: hit home, how even like, you know, Western movie critics

1283
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,759
Speaker 1: working at the highest level still know nothing about movies

1284
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 1: that are outside of the West. Repeatedly. Jen's character is

1285
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 1: like a Mulan type, a warrior princess because Mulan came

1286
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: out recently, and they're.

1287
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 2: Like yeah, but you know, I saw academics writing about

1288
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: this who were like, oh, well, it's kind of rare

1289
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 2: for there to be like shows like this is like

1290
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 2: a male dominated like hero genre, and it's rare for

1291
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:42,600
Speaker 2: there to be like a female like protagonist. And I

1292
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 2: was like, have you watched any of these movies, like,

1293
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,720
Speaker 2: you know, say, say what you want about like the

1294
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 2: politics of like the average kung fu movie. And I

1295
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: think the politics the average kung fu movie are terrible.

1296
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 2: I think this movie actually has above average politics for

1297
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 2: a kung fo movie. But the one thing you can

1298
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 2: say about that is every single per regardless of their gender,

1299
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 2: knows how to fight. It does kung fu.

1300
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 5: Like that's that's like, that's like the one thing you

1301
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 5: could say is that there are always like female protagonists

1302
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 5: who just absolutely beat the crap out of people. It's

1303
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 5: like it's like, have you people, like you're both the

1304
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 5: academics and the journalists, like, have you.

1305
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 2: Guys like ever have you guys watched like Picking Up

1306
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 2: or Blues? Like literally a single other kung fu movie.

1307
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 1: Like reading shit like that in the New Yorker, You're like, oh, like,

1308
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 1: they're my god, there's don't care And it was like,

1309
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 1: didn't do any research. And they're like, oh, yes, the

1310
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 1: idea of a woman who fights was invented two years

1311
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: ago in an American children's cartoon.

1312
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:43,720
Speaker 2: You're like, no, China is an egg rolls Like it's

1313
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 2: just like, oh, yeah, it's a lot.

1314
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,759
Speaker 1: But anyways, the the Yeah, the movie is absolutely driven

1315
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 1: by women. Don't believe the poster.

1316
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 3: Don't yeah seriously, And then there are some interesting things

1317
01:11:56,640 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 3: happening as it relates to gender and gender roles and

1318
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 3: expectations in the movie. And I personally know very little

1319
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 3: about gender politics in China during this dynasty, so I

1320
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 3: don't know how accurately the movie represents the gender roles

1321
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 3: of this again sort of unspecified era. But there there

1322
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 3: are some interesting things happening, such as women are allowed

1323
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 3: to be warriors as we see with Shulin, but they

1324
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 3: are not allowed to train at Wu Dan, which I

1325
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 3: don't know if that means that women are prevented from

1326
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 3: becoming the greatest warriors. I don't know if the implication

1327
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 3: is like to be the greatest warrior you have to

1328
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 3: study at this institution.

1329
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 1: I think that that's implied.

1330
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 3: That seems to be implied, right, because.

1331
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 2: They yeah, like that they have sort of secret techniques

1332
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 2: that no one else knows that like.

1333
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 3: And Jade Fox is like very enthusiastic about wanting to

1334
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 3: train there and earn these fighting techniques, and she was

1335
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 3: not allowed hence her whole like character trajectory.

1336
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it's I have okay question about this

1337
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, it's I'm not quite sure

1338
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 1: how she's feeling here, because Shulin is such a composed

1339
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:23,679
Speaker 1: character that sometimes I'm like, oh, how does she actually

1340
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 1: feel about that? Where the moment where Mubai decides I

1341
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 1: think Jen should train and I will take her on

1342
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,599
Speaker 1: as my student on all all this stuff, I couldn't

1343
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: tell if Shulin was chafing at that idea because she's.

1344
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,680
Speaker 3: Like, well, you never asked me, you never wanted me

1345
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 3: to do it.

1346
01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 1: That was sort of I was like, that's how I

1347
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 1: would feel, but I don't but I'm not her, but

1348
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 1: it was It was kind of a difficult because I

1349
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:55,639
Speaker 1: feel like there were certain moments where Shulin was not

1350
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 1: like upholding patriarchy but like, you know, it's not pushing

1351
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: super hard art and and like right, so I don't

1352
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 1: know that was an interesting scene because I'm like, how

1353
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:07,439
Speaker 1: is she? I feel like she has to be a

1354
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 1: little pissed that he's like I want this person who

1355
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 1: comes from a ridiculous amount of privilege. I just meant

1356
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 1: to train. But you who've known my entire life and

1357
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 1: I'm deeply in love with it never occurred to me.

1358
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 3: Kind of I did wonder about that. There's a lot

1359
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:26,599
Speaker 3: of interesting things happening about how certain characters feel about

1360
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 3: certain gender roles and expectations too. Where so because you

1361
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 3: have like women are allowed to be warriors, this is

1362
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:37,839
Speaker 3: like a normal thing in society. I think you learn.

1363
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,680
Speaker 3: You don't learn much about Shulin's backstory except that she

1364
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:46,639
Speaker 3: was engaged to a man and that she I think

1365
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 3: took over her father's line of work in some kind of.

1366
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: Like they say it's a security.

1367
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:55,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, security, he's like a security guy, right.

1368
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:58,599
Speaker 3: So hence her becoming like a skilled fighter.

1369
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean there's also like I think was interesting

1370
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:03,839
Speaker 2: about one of them when she's like walking into Beijing,

1371
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 2: like I don't know, I can't remember who exactly he

1372
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 2: is like a guy who's involved with the thing tells

1373
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 2: her that, like she's like she's doing a really good

1374
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:13,559
Speaker 2: job and like her thing is safer than when her

1375
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 2: dad was doing it.

1376
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 3: Right, she's even better than her dad. I so good

1377
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:18,559
Speaker 3: for her.

1378
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that because it's like, not only was

1379
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: that like, oh, you know, this is like very you know,

1380
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 1: hyper competent character, but just like how satisfying would that

1381
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 1: be if someone was just like, hey, I know your

1382
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 1: dad did this too, but like you're you're you're killing

1383
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:38,840
Speaker 1: it by comparison, he fucking sucked. I'm like like hello,

1384
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: like it's implied like he's maybe not alive anymore. So

1385
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 1: I loved that. It's like your dead dad, he's he sucked.

1386
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 3: So we learned this about Shulin and her backstory and

1387
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,879
Speaker 3: just like this is her job and it is accepted

1388
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,719
Speaker 3: by everyone. Then there are other women, such as Jen,

1389
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:03,799
Speaker 3: who are expected to uphold more like traditional gender roles

1390
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 3: of like getting married and marrying a particular person who

1391
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,599
Speaker 3: comes from a quote unquote good family, and the way

1392
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:16,040
Speaker 3: that various characters kind of view these different expectations based

1393
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:20,439
Speaker 3: on like kind of like what your position is in life,

1394
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 3: where again, Jen is from this upper class family and

1395
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 3: is therefore more bound by traditional values of like polite society.

1396
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 3: But she thinks that marriage is a prison, and she

1397
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 3: wants to be able to like roam freely and go

1398
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,160
Speaker 3: wherever she wants and do whatever she wants. She wants

1399
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:41,760
Speaker 3: to be a warrior, and she's been training to do

1400
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:45,759
Speaker 3: that in secret for a decade. Then you have Schulin,

1401
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:49,960
Speaker 3: who is in this position where she is more free,

1402
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 3: she is not bound by these limitations and expectations, but

1403
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 3: she still holds onto these more traditional values, where she

1404
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 3: says things like marriages the most important step in a

1405
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:06,120
Speaker 3: woman's life, and later on she says something like to Jen,

1406
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:11,240
Speaker 3: I'm not an aristocrat as you are, but I must

1407
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 3: still respect a woman's duty. And she also like seems

1408
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 3: too long for romantic love and companionship in the way

1409
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 3: that Jen does not. So they kind of have these

1410
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 3: like they like conflicting.

1411
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: I really I mean, I really love how those sort

1412
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 1: of kind of chafe with each other. And that always

1413
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 1: that Jen is constantly wanting to have a blunt conversation

1414
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 1: that chu Lynn is not willing to have. But it's

1415
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 1: like that there's so much going on and I feel

1416
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 1: like very often in movies that are maybe technically feminist

1417
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,720
Speaker 1: but not fun to watch necessarily, it's because it's like

1418
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 1: all women are allies to each other and that is feminism,

1419
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, no, these are two very different

1420
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,160
Speaker 1: people there, you know, like Michelle Yeo's character is like

1421
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:03,120
Speaker 1: fifteen years old than Jen. There are basically different generations

1422
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:06,799
Speaker 1: and different classes, so it makes sense that and totally

1423
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:09,760
Speaker 1: different life experiences, so it makes sense that these are

1424
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 1: the things they're going to chave fun. And it also

1425
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 1: I think like the way that Jen's youth and privilege

1426
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: is commented on, but in a way that doesn't negate

1427
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:22,840
Speaker 1: her as a person. I feel like it's always really

1428
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 1: clear why she's doing what she's doing, even when it

1429
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:31,640
Speaker 1: is like reckless and intense, but it's I don't know,

1430
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:36,280
Speaker 1: I really liked that scene where Jen I feel like being,

1431
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:39,640
Speaker 1: you know, an eighteen year old doesn't understand why, you know,

1432
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 1: Shulin is not completely thrilled with the life that she

1433
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 1: has becuse she's free, she can do whatever she wants.

1434
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:49,680
Speaker 1: But Julan can't do whatever she wants and is explaining that.

1435
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:52,240
Speaker 1: But it makes sense that that's difficult for an eighteen

1436
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 1: year old to understand when you're being forced down kind

1437
01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 1: of the straight and narrow expected life. Yeah, their scenes

1438
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:01,440
Speaker 1: together are a great Definitely.

1439
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 2: The other part of this that I'm wondering about now

1440
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 2: that was I didn't really think about when I was

1441
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 2: watching it is the extent to which Schulin's also of

1442
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 2: the O I guess rolling back to the beginning, one

1443
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 2: of the sort of interesting things about this movie is

1444
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 2: it starts with Rubai is trying to like he's trying

1445
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 2: to give his sword away because he's like haunted by

1446
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 2: how many people he's killed, and he like is trying

1447
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 2: to get away from the violence of the sort of

1448
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:32,439
Speaker 2: like underground like kung fu world that he's in, and

1449
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 2: he kind of can't do it. But I'm also wondering

1450
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:37,680
Speaker 2: now how much of the sort of like you know,

1451
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:41,920
Speaker 2: because I when when when Jen and Shulen are are

1452
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 2: talking about like are you free right, Sulin has this

1453
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 2: thing about like she starts talking about how like, well, no,

1454
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 2: there's still rules in the martial arts world. You have

1455
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:53,760
Speaker 2: to have these rules so that people can survive. But

1456
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:57,680
Speaker 2: I wonder how much of that is also just based

1457
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:03,080
Speaker 2: on her thing that Jed doesn't really understand like the

1458
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:05,080
Speaker 2: extent to which the world can be a terrible place,

1459
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 2: and that like this world is also just like a

1460
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 2: blood bath.

1461
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 3: And Sheeln says something to the effect of like, yeah,

1462
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 3: I mean, no, I'm not married and I could go

1463
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 3: anywhere I wanted, But it's not as glamorous as you

1464
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 3: think this lifestyle. Yeah, the you know, the writers who

1465
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:29,799
Speaker 3: you know write these legendary stories about warriors, are leaving

1466
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 3: out the less glorious parts of it, like how we

1467
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:35,840
Speaker 3: like don't bathe for weeks on end and we sleep

1468
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 3: in flea ridden beds and yeah.

1469
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 1: She Len's like, we smell like shit. It's actually it's

1470
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 1: actually not that fun. So I tell people who are

1471
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:46,240
Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about starting stand up, I'm like, look,

1472
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 1: we don't bathe. It's disgusting.

1473
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 3: Your life is going to be miserable. Yeah, And then

1474
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 3: she also says like, well, yeah, you perceive me to

1475
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:01,800
Speaker 3: have all this glorious freedom, but like, I haven't lived

1476
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,920
Speaker 3: the life I've wanted to have. Parentheses, I'm in love

1477
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 3: with Mubai and we have never gotten together because we're

1478
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 3: both too scared to admit it. So like, it's not

1479
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 3: all fun in games when you're a Warrior and Jen

1480
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 3: because she's so young and naive and like arrogance is

1481
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 3: another component of her character which is fun to watch

1482
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 3: because she's like so cocky with her insults and stuff.

1483
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:30,559
Speaker 3: But she's a young person who like doesn't understand and.

1484
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:33,479
Speaker 1: Understandably doesn't want to get you be forced into an

1485
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: arranged marriage, like for sure, and so it's totally understandable

1486
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:40,680
Speaker 1: why she sees Shulan and is like, how could you

1487
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:41,680
Speaker 1: not be happy with that?

1488
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:45,519
Speaker 3: Like, oh, here's here's a fun not the grass is

1489
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:48,920
Speaker 3: always greener, but the sword is always greener because it's

1490
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 3: the green destiny.

1491
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:56,240
Speaker 1: Wow, wish they did it? They did it? Yeah, I

1492
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 1: mean I and I it's like neither of them are

1493
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 1: free because neither of them are able to access the

1494
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 1: life that they want and deserve. That wouldn't be fucking

1495
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 1: hurting anybody, Like it's that's not freedom for either of them.

1496
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:12,520
Speaker 1: And I feel like that is that theme is explored

1497
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 1: in a different way with Jade Fox. I I'm like,

1498
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:19,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is controversial to be a

1499
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,559
Speaker 1: Jade Fox apologist, but I I'm right there with you.

1500
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 1: It's even more generational between Jade Fox and Jen. But

1501
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 1: Jade Fox is. I mean, it's almost like looking at

1502
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 1: like different generations of feminists, and Jade Fox is to

1503
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: some extent resentful of Jen for having access both in

1504
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: class and freedom to do things that she can't. Also

1505
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 1: the issue of the and I want to make sure

1506
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm getting this right, Like Jen is able to read

1507
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:53,519
Speaker 1: and write and is very educated, and so she's able

1508
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:58,320
Speaker 1: to withhold information from Jade Fox to advantage herself. And

1509
01:22:58,360 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 1: that is like what Joker Fizz Jane Fox at the

1510
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 1: end of the movie where she's just like, how could

1511
01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:07,400
Speaker 1: you I put my you know, I put ten years

1512
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 1: of my life into training you. Although you could certainly

1513
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:14,599
Speaker 1: argue that she was taking advantage of Jen's station in

1514
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 1: life and in order to I don't know. Jade Fox

1515
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 1: is fascinating to me because all she wanted was to

1516
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 1: go to NYU and they said, no, you cannot go.

1517
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:28,559
Speaker 1: Like she couldn't go, she couldn't get educated the way

1518
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,240
Speaker 1: that she wanted to and deserve to be, and then

1519
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:34,680
Speaker 1: on top of that was like sexualized and treated like

1520
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 1: shit by Mudbye's mentor. So it's like, how is she

1521
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 1: supposed to access this education? Like how like and I

1522
01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:46,400
Speaker 1: feel like her whole life story is an attempt to

1523
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:49,719
Speaker 1: remedy that the fact that she was denied an education.

1524
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 3: Right, I'm very much with you as far as like

1525
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:56,800
Speaker 3: I was watching this On one of my watches of

1526
01:23:56,840 --> 01:24:01,640
Speaker 3: this movie, I was watching it through j Fox's perspective.

1527
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 3: Who by the way, just quick side note. Jade Fox

1528
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 3: is played by Chang Pei Pei, who is considered cinema's

1529
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 3: first female action hero. So cool, I think based on

1530
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:16,640
Speaker 3: a movie that she starred in in the mid sixties.

1531
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:18,280
Speaker 1: Oh oh, I didn't know that.

1532
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, But Jade Fox is a character who's like been

1533
01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 3: abused by the men around her. She wanted access to

1534
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 3: something that she could not have access to because of

1535
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 3: her gender. She is often underestimated by people around her.

1536
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:43,240
Speaker 3: Where Like that guard Bo is like once he finds

1537
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:45,679
Speaker 3: out that Jade Fox is a woman, because again she's

1538
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:48,080
Speaker 3: presumed to be a man, because a lot of people

1539
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:51,639
Speaker 3: are making assumptions about gender as well throughout this movie.

1540
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:55,160
Speaker 3: But when Bo is like, oh, Jade Fox is a woman, well,

1541
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:58,240
Speaker 3: no problem, let me handle her. And then the police

1542
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:02,360
Speaker 3: inspector is like, actually, you can't. She is so good

1543
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:05,719
Speaker 3: at fighting, and she killed my wife, who was also

1544
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 3: really good at fighting and.

1545
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 2: My kung fu wife kung.

1546
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:15,120
Speaker 3: Fu wife, right, So, but like Jade Fox is someone

1547
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:19,599
Speaker 3: who even though is framed as the villain of this story,

1548
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:21,759
Speaker 3: and I think there's also something I mean, we touched

1549
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 3: on this already, but the way that like people of

1550
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 3: a lower class are framed in this movie, particularly Jade

1551
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:35,440
Speaker 3: Fox and Low are made out to seem either uncivilized

1552
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:37,719
Speaker 3: or villainous or both.

1553
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:40,759
Speaker 1: And it also feels like, I mean, with Jade Fox,

1554
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,240
Speaker 1: like her weapon of choice is poison, which feels like

1555
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 1: a very one to one of like she's very bitter

1556
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:49,959
Speaker 1: and she tries to poison gen she tries to poison

1557
01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 1: everyone because she's so full of this like it's it's

1558
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think it can be read a

1559
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:57,560
Speaker 1: lot of ways, and I appreciated that it felt like

1560
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:00,639
Speaker 1: you could read it a lot of ways where you

1561
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 1: are given the exact because I feel like often when

1562
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:07,799
Speaker 1: we're shown older women and they're framed as bitter and angry,

1563
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:10,720
Speaker 1: you're given no context as to why that might be.

1564
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:15,719
Speaker 1: And it's just like inherent to being an older woman

1565
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:19,639
Speaker 1: or an older fem specifically, it's like you're bitter and

1566
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:23,599
Speaker 1: mean and horrible and it's like, you know, crone logic basically,

1567
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 1: but with Jade Fox, it's like you know exactly why

1568
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:29,559
Speaker 1: she's angry, and you can sort of, you know, decide

1569
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:34,120
Speaker 1: how you feel about how she weaponizes that anger against

1570
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 1: other people. But I appreciate. I just feel like it's

1571
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 1: more than you usually get right to know exactly why

1572
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:43,680
Speaker 1: she's so angry. But I was, I don't know, like,

1573
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:48,400
Speaker 1: I just wasn't very invested in Mubai as a character,

1574
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:49,960
Speaker 1: so when she got them at the end, I was

1575
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:53,320
Speaker 1: like sad for Shulin, but I was more interested in

1576
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:57,760
Speaker 1: how Jen felt about her death. But instead Jen was

1577
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 1: immediately like, oh, Shuelin and Muba my new mom and dad.

1578
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,400
Speaker 1: She switches parents so many times in this movie. She's like,

1579
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:07,679
Speaker 1: I have to go help my new my new dad,

1580
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,800
Speaker 1: instead of I just I wish that I knew how

1581
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 1: she felt more about that relationship, because the way that

1582
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: Jade Fox goes out is oh my god, like.

1583
01:27:19,080 --> 01:27:22,320
Speaker 3: She impaled by sword shards.

1584
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I mean her dying words Oh sure, Yeah,

1585
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 1: that too are really really intense, where she's like, you know,

1586
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:33,639
Speaker 1: the real poison is the deceit of an eight year

1587
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:37,559
Speaker 1: old girl, and you're like Oh, there's so much. There's

1588
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:40,360
Speaker 1: so much going on there, and so it's so dramatic.

1589
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:44,120
Speaker 2: I think there's like an interesting kind of if you

1590
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:46,679
Speaker 2: look at like the three women main characters, right, there's

1591
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 2: this kind of gradient of like, Okay, there are three

1592
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 2: things that you like want to have, right, You want

1593
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 2: to be you want to have like like a high

1594
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:58,800
Speaker 2: class position, you want to have the ability to do

1595
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:02,760
Speaker 2: kung fu, and you want to be free, right, And

1596
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:07,360
Speaker 2: no one has all three of them really, But Jade

1597
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 2: Fox is the person who has none of them, like

1598
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:12,599
Speaker 2: she is she is low class. The high class kid

1599
01:28:12,680 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 2: that she's like I'm gonna try to like learn kung

1600
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 2: fu with this person and go be free with them,

1601
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 2: is like does this really? You know? The way it's

1602
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:22,760
Speaker 2: framed in the movie is that jen is like a

1603
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:25,720
Speaker 2: superior martial artist and thus knows that like there's no

1604
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:28,720
Speaker 2: way that that Jade Fox could possibly learn like the

1605
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:31,120
Speaker 2: secrets of this thing. But like how does she know that?

1606
01:28:31,160 --> 01:28:33,519
Speaker 2: Like it really just seems like it she's Jesus right,

1607
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 2: She's just being like a terrible aristocrat and it's just

1608
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:38,800
Speaker 2: writing off yeah Jade Fox.

1609
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so frustrating to see and to see that

1610
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: that sort of bear out in the internal logic of

1611
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:48,240
Speaker 1: the movie where it's like, well, I guess she thought

1612
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:51,479
Speaker 1: that because it was it was true, and there's no that.

1613
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:52,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1614
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:55,160
Speaker 1: Well, and it also applies there's only one way to

1615
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:57,920
Speaker 1: become a good martial artist, and it's by going to

1616
01:28:57,960 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 1: this one school. Like there's it's not suggested that there's

1617
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 1: any possible alternative. Yeah, I'm always a little leery. Yeah,

1618
01:29:07,479 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 1: when it's like, oh the I don't know. It's almost

1619
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 1: like the latest Star Wars trilogy logic where it's like,

1620
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 1: you can't just be a person. You have to somehow

1621
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 1: be connected to aristocracy and power and legacy in order

1622
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:24,920
Speaker 1: to justify being good at something or being like the

1623
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:28,559
Speaker 1: best at something you like. And I feel like between

1624
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:31,320
Speaker 1: Jen and Jade Fox, we see the same thing where

1625
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:34,559
Speaker 1: Jen has access to more which isn't really called attention

1626
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 1: to too much, but the fact that Jade Fox doesn't

1627
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:40,200
Speaker 1: have them is her downfall.

1628
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 2: Well, and also like the way that Jade Fox is

1629
01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:45,679
Speaker 2: like her governess when they're hiding together.

1630
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that power dynamic too is like Jade

1631
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 1: Fox deserve better, and it's like deserve better from Jen. Also,

1632
01:29:55,080 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, it's like difficult because she's a kid,

1633
01:29:57,160 --> 01:29:57,519
Speaker 1: and you.

1634
01:29:57,479 --> 01:30:01,920
Speaker 3: Know, I don't know, it's complicated.

1635
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 1: I love her. She did she she did nothing wrong.

1636
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:06,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is a true hero.

1637
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:12,600
Speaker 1: Why isn't she on the poster consulting she kills the

1638
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:13,080
Speaker 1: great hero?

1639
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, because kong Fu was not strong enough to block

1640
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:18,960
Speaker 2: all of the dark. She defeated him. Right, Yeah, she

1641
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 2: doesn't get any credit for this either, right.

1642
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:24,120
Speaker 1: Right, the fact that she ugh and I don't know,

1643
01:30:24,200 --> 01:30:26,080
Speaker 1: Like I get that it's supposed to be like poetic

1644
01:30:26,120 --> 01:30:28,719
Speaker 1: that in the end they kill each other, but Jade

1645
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:31,240
Speaker 1: Fox is totally like it. We're led to believe that

1646
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:34,240
Speaker 1: one of Mubai's driving forces in his life is to

1647
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:36,839
Speaker 1: kill her. But it's it's very.

1648
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:39,680
Speaker 3: Like he says early on, like I have yet to

1649
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:43,559
Speaker 3: avenge my master, and I have to do that by

1650
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 3: killing Jade Fox, who again is only the villain. She

1651
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 3: doesn't deserve to be framed as the villain of the movie.

1652
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,879
Speaker 3: If anyone's the villain, it seems to be the mentor

1653
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:00,639
Speaker 3: guy who we never see on screen because he died

1654
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:01,799
Speaker 3: before the movie starts.

1655
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:03,840
Speaker 1: But thank you, thank you for that, Jade Box.

1656
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:10,320
Speaker 3: Right, But I was reading that because I haven't seen

1657
01:31:10,560 --> 01:31:14,640
Speaker 3: that many WUSHA movies or I'm not really familiar with

1658
01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:19,480
Speaker 3: that form of fiction, but I was reading that poison

1659
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:23,639
Speaker 3: as a weapon is framed in those narratives as always

1660
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 3: being like very cowardly. So anyone who uses poison is like, oh,

1661
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 3: that person's not a real warrior. They're a coward. And

1662
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:36,479
Speaker 3: of course Jade Fox's weapon of choice is poison. That's

1663
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:38,400
Speaker 3: how she bests her enemies.

1664
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:41,040
Speaker 2: And it also like it gets used by women a lot,

1665
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 2: which sucks.

1666
01:31:42,479 --> 01:31:47,520
Speaker 3: Just across yeah, like across fiction in general, from all regions.

1667
01:31:48,280 --> 01:31:51,000
Speaker 3: So that is a bummer. Yeah, I don't appreciate the

1668
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 3: way that the movie frames her with all of these

1669
01:31:54,439 --> 01:31:59,760
Speaker 3: villainous qualities, even though she was, you know, just oppressed

1670
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:04,000
Speaker 3: by by this system that Otherwise, the movie seems to

1671
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:09,440
Speaker 3: be challenging, like these patriarchal standards of women being expected

1672
01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:13,200
Speaker 3: to be married off and their worth as a human

1673
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:17,880
Speaker 3: hinges on them being a wife, and you have this

1674
01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 3: young woman Jen who's pushing against that and pushing against

1675
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:26,960
Speaker 3: all these oppressive expectations that are foisted upon women. And

1676
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:30,639
Speaker 3: because of that, this movie could easily be interpreted as

1677
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:35,160
Speaker 3: a feminist text. But then the movie turns around and

1678
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:40,280
Speaker 3: frames this like scorned woman of Jade Fox as a villain,

1679
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:43,559
Speaker 3: even though she's doing the same thing as Jen, like

1680
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:48,680
Speaker 3: she's also speaking out against these oppressive gender based expectations,

1681
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 3: but for some reason, when Jade Fox does it, it's

1682
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:53,960
Speaker 3: bad and she's a villain.

1683
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,760
Speaker 2: I will say, I think it's interesting that her existence

1684
01:32:58,439 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 2: winds up getting like institutional change starts happening, because everyone

1685
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:05,200
Speaker 2: kind of looks like, you know, like one of the

1686
01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:06,760
Speaker 2: one of the important things without this movie is that

1687
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:12,120
Speaker 2: Jen has this conversation with Mubai about going toodan and

1688
01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 2: Jen is like, well, they don't train women, and Mubai

1689
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:17,720
Speaker 2: is like, well, I'll go talk to it.

1690
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:19,200
Speaker 3: Well they might make an exception.

1691
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:23,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you can see things like very slowly starting

1692
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:25,760
Speaker 2: to change. But like, I think part of what's going

1693
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 2: on in this movie is that the sort of like okay,

1694
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:31,320
Speaker 2: like I guess you call it like the Heavenly Kingdom,

1695
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:32,760
Speaker 2: which the air which is you know, the sort of

1696
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:35,920
Speaker 2: aristocracy is you know, incredibly corrupt, right in that like

1697
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:41,000
Speaker 2: the aristocracy is based on the system of political marriages

1698
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:44,559
Speaker 2: that like forces women to essentially be servants and like

1699
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 2: do sex work for the powerful male members of the family.

1700
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,160
Speaker 2: So like that's obviously sort of like a corrupt system

1701
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:52,599
Speaker 2: and everyone's trying to get out of it. But then

1702
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:55,920
Speaker 2: also the sort of like the martial arts Underworld is also,

1703
01:33:56,320 --> 01:34:00,280
Speaker 2: you know, just a corrupt system because it's also based

1704
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:03,000
Speaker 2: on the same sort of logic of patriarch exclusion, logic

1705
01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:05,320
Speaker 2: of like using women for sex and then it's just

1706
01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:09,040
Speaker 2: getting rid of them and never like teaching them, et cetera,

1707
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:13,040
Speaker 2: et cetera. And I think part of what the movie

1708
01:34:13,120 --> 01:34:16,519
Speaker 2: is about is the characters slowly coming to realize that,

1709
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:18,840
Speaker 2: like all of this stuff is messed up and why

1710
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:21,599
Speaker 2: have we been Like, Like one of the things over

1711
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:24,880
Speaker 2: the course of the series is that Sulin realizes, like,

1712
01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:29,720
Speaker 2: why have I been wasting my entire life like not yeah,

1713
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:32,639
Speaker 2: not being the right person I love because she.

1714
01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:36,280
Speaker 3: And Mubai have the same kind of journey where and

1715
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:40,640
Speaker 3: I thought that was especially interesting for Mubai because you know,

1716
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:43,320
Speaker 3: he lives his life as this you know, legendary warrior.

1717
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 3: He gives that up because he wants to be with Hulett.

1718
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 3: He's so horny that he quits grad school and he

1719
01:34:51,439 --> 01:34:56,439
Speaker 3: finally like works out the courage. It almost happened to me. Now,

1720
01:34:57,640 --> 01:35:00,759
Speaker 3: he finally like works up the courage to hell shulen

1721
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:03,760
Speaker 3: his feelings. But before anything can really happen between them,

1722
01:35:04,200 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 3: Jade Fox kills him, and in his dying breath, he's like,

1723
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:11,000
Speaker 3: I've always loved you. I've wasted my whole life, meaning

1724
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:14,599
Speaker 3: like I've wasted my life not being with you. Aka,

1725
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:18,639
Speaker 3: I've wasted my life denying my feelings and being afraid

1726
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:22,880
Speaker 3: to express my feelings, which is like not a typical

1727
01:35:23,360 --> 01:35:27,320
Speaker 3: arc or journey for a male character period, and particularly

1728
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:30,280
Speaker 3: not in like an action movie or for like an

1729
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 3: action combat warrior type of character. So I thought that

1730
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 3: was very interesting.

1731
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: I appreciated the high drama of it. Yes, as far

1732
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 1: as relationships between women, I feel like we yeah, like

1733
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 1: you're saying, we get like a pretty strong gradient of

1734
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:49,559
Speaker 1: women of different ages, class backgrounds, life experiences, and just

1735
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:53,200
Speaker 1: like desires of what they want out of life. I

1736
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:56,639
Speaker 1: feel like, And as I was watching this, I was like, oh, yeah,

1737
01:35:56,640 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 1: I think we're very often and even in ways that

1738
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 1: scan progressive. Sometimes we're told like all women want the

1739
01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:08,200
Speaker 1: same thing now, and it's to work eighty hours a week,

1740
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:13,400
Speaker 1: and it's like well that's not you know, that's simply

1741
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:17,160
Speaker 1: not what everybody wants. And I like that there is

1742
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:20,760
Speaker 1: just like at a base level, the three main women

1743
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 1: who are driving this story all want something different, and

1744
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:28,000
Speaker 1: they're like their definition of personal fulfillment is different, and

1745
01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:32,840
Speaker 1: I always appreciate seeing a flexible definition of what that is.

1746
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:38,440
Speaker 3: Definitely, can we talk a little bit about the relationship

1747
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:41,240
Speaker 3: between Gen and Low.

1748
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean it's like Mubai and Shulann, You're, like,

1749
01:36:45,800 --> 01:36:49,360
Speaker 1: you know what, they love each other so much. I'm

1750
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: not gonna say no, good for them.

1751
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:54,719
Speaker 3: I'm not opposed to their relationship. I'm sad it didn't

1752
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:55,559
Speaker 3: get to happen.

1753
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,360
Speaker 1: But and it seems like Mubai like had no issue,

1754
01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:01,160
Speaker 1: Like part of why he loves so much was because

1755
01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:04,040
Speaker 1: she was hyper competent and great at what she did,

1756
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:06,080
Speaker 1: and like, it didn't seem like that relationship happen he

1757
01:37:06,080 --> 01:37:09,000
Speaker 1: would have interfered with that. It was just all the feelings.

1758
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:13,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, the genuine Low relationship, well that's that's different.

1759
01:37:14,439 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. I'll just kind of break down some of the

1760
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:24,120
Speaker 3: key beats, okay, which is Low and his bandits Raid.

1761
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:29,000
Speaker 3: The group of travelers among them is Jen and her mother.

1762
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:36,000
Speaker 3: He says, leave the women alone, so feminist icon Low, Yeah.

1763
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:41,720
Speaker 2: Although I interpreted that as keep them alive. So I

1764
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 2: don't know which way it's supposed to be.

1765
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:48,559
Speaker 3: I interpreted, I guess is like, yeah, we're bandits, but

1766
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:51,800
Speaker 3: we have a code of ethics and we don't We

1767
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:54,759
Speaker 3: might pillage, but we will not rape. Like I don't.

1768
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:59,280
Speaker 1: Well, although based on what you just said and based

1769
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 1: on how afraid Jen is, I don't think it's inconceivable

1770
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:05,080
Speaker 1: that she thought that that might happen, and that's why

1771
01:38:05,120 --> 01:38:08,559
Speaker 1: she was kept all right, because when she she afraid

1772
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:10,680
Speaker 1: of him and he's like, don't worry, I'm not and

1773
01:38:10,680 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 1: then you're like, wow, what a hero.

1774
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:16,720
Speaker 3: Right, And then when she returns to the group of

1775
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:20,760
Speaker 3: like bandits, they seem like they're about to descend on her.

1776
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:23,479
Speaker 3: And then Low shows back up also and he's like,

1777
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:27,519
Speaker 3: leave her for me, like she's mine, Yeah, to kind

1778
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:30,519
Speaker 3: of save her. But I mean, again, there we're about

1779
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 3: to talk about how messed up their relationship is.

1780
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:36,519
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's something else you need to talk about

1781
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:42,320
Speaker 2: with this briefly, which is that, Okay, so there is

1782
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:49,439
Speaker 2: a whole thing about gender race relations between like Weiger

1783
01:38:49,560 --> 01:38:53,800
Speaker 2: men and like Han women, Like this is the thing

1784
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:56,320
Speaker 2: that starts the race riot that like when things go

1785
01:38:56,360 --> 01:38:58,439
Speaker 2: start to go really really bad in Change On, it's

1786
01:38:58,439 --> 01:39:01,160
Speaker 2: because a bunch of Chinese factory workers like beat a

1787
01:39:01,200 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 2: bunch of weaker workers to death, and they do it

1788
01:39:03,360 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 2: because the rumors starts spreading that like a weaker worker

1789
01:39:06,080 --> 01:39:10,120
Speaker 2: has like raped a hon woman. And so that is

1790
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 2: a thing that is the sort of sexual politics interesting,

1791
01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 2: like the sort of racial sexual politics. The thing that's

1792
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:19,719
Speaker 2: like hanging over the edge of this in a way

1793
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:24,200
Speaker 2: that like for me, was really weird. I don't know

1794
01:39:24,360 --> 01:39:28,120
Speaker 2: what Ong Lee was trying to do with this, if

1795
01:39:28,160 --> 01:39:32,160
Speaker 2: he understood really what he was doing getting into here, right, I.

1796
01:39:32,200 --> 01:39:36,640
Speaker 1: Mean, because that's like and we see that in Hollywood

1797
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:38,560
Speaker 1: movies all the time with different I feel like in

1798
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:42,599
Speaker 1: old Hollywood in particular, anytime you see a black man

1799
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:45,280
Speaker 1: with a white woman, it seems like, are you talking

1800
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:48,800
Speaker 1: about a similar dynamic of like here coded as predatory

1801
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:51,800
Speaker 1: and then Jen's character would be more like virginal and

1802
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:55,040
Speaker 1: this is a life worth protecting sort of coding.

1803
01:39:55,360 --> 01:39:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know to what extent only understands

1804
01:39:59,120 --> 01:40:01,680
Speaker 2: this because like I mean so clearly he's done some

1805
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:05,080
Speaker 2: research about what's going on, sort of like the ching

1806
01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:09,160
Speaker 2: Kana sees like borders, right, but that is a political

1807
01:40:09,200 --> 01:40:12,400
Speaker 2: thing that I don't think even most people in China

1808
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:16,120
Speaker 2: didn't really get because until like the late two thousands,

1809
01:40:16,160 --> 01:40:19,280
Speaker 2: Like the average Chinese person, I mean, it is racist,

1810
01:40:19,280 --> 01:40:21,160
Speaker 2: like yeah, the other Chinese person's conception of like what

1811
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 2: Changchani is like, oh, it's those people who would like dance, right,

1812
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:25,840
Speaker 2: which is racist in its own way, but they just

1813
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 2: don't think about it very often. But it reads the fact.

1814
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:34,240
Speaker 2: For example, like that Lowe is the only character and

1815
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:36,040
Speaker 2: I think the only character in the movie he talks

1816
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:39,640
Speaker 2: about rape like at all. I think I could be

1817
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:42,680
Speaker 2: wrong about that, but it scans weird.

1818
01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:47,439
Speaker 3: If you read Jade Fox's like, oh, sure he would

1819
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:49,720
Speaker 3: sleep with me, but he wouldn't teach me. It's not

1820
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:53,559
Speaker 3: clear in what capacity she was there, Like was she

1821
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:57,479
Speaker 3: there as a sex worker who was like knowingly providing

1822
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:02,040
Speaker 3: a service for these warriors or was it a more sinister.

1823
01:41:01,920 --> 01:41:04,920
Speaker 1: Or is it even like yeah, or I think you

1824
01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:08,280
Speaker 1: could argue like I mean, I don't know, but like

1825
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:12,160
Speaker 1: almost casting couchy behavior of like dangling the charactive like oh,

1826
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:15,960
Speaker 1: maybe I'll teach you if you have sex with me, right, Yeah, yeah,

1827
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:17,800
Speaker 1: that could go a lot of ways, right.

1828
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:20,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I still think it's very it rings alarm

1829
01:41:20,840 --> 01:41:24,040
Speaker 2: bells to me that he has, like I mean, I

1830
01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:26,360
Speaker 2: guess it's partially just the way that like the characters written,

1831
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 2: just the incredibly weird kidnappy situation that's going on, but

1832
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:33,799
Speaker 2: the fact that he's the one, like not Han character

1833
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:36,639
Speaker 2: who well, not the only but like the one plot

1834
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:39,679
Speaker 2: relevant non Han character is the one. Yeah, well okay,

1835
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,240
Speaker 2: not Han or not Manchu because at this point they're

1836
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:44,880
Speaker 2: both the ruling classes sort of like unified.

1837
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:49,519
Speaker 3: Right yeah, for him to be framed as again like

1838
01:41:49,800 --> 01:41:54,719
Speaker 3: presented as quote unquote barbaric and uncivilized and being the thief.

1839
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then and then he does he does do

1840
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:58,800
Speaker 2: the weird thing where they're like wrestling and then they

1841
01:41:58,800 --> 01:41:59,759
Speaker 2: start kissing, and it's.

1842
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:03,679
Speaker 3: Like, okay, this is where the worst thing the consent

1843
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:08,439
Speaker 3: nightmare scene, yes, where like basically she's trying to get

1844
01:42:08,439 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 3: her comb back. They've had a weird rapport up until

1845
01:42:12,080 --> 01:42:12,920
Speaker 3: this point where like.

1846
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:14,559
Speaker 1: So weird she keeps it like I feel like it's

1847
01:42:14,560 --> 01:42:20,080
Speaker 1: implied by the movie that she's escaping his clutches flirtatiously.

1848
01:42:20,400 --> 01:42:24,720
Speaker 3: Yes, it's yeah, like I can't exactly pinpoint what is

1849
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:27,320
Speaker 3: happening to make me think that, but I think like

1850
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:30,240
Speaker 3: that that's how I'm reading it. Right. So there's like

1851
01:42:30,280 --> 01:42:34,760
Speaker 3: this weird flirtation going on, almost like a nagging situation

1852
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:38,639
Speaker 3: that they're both doing, and they're like fighting, and then

1853
01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 3: at one point they're wrestling and then all of a sudden,

1854
01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:48,519
Speaker 3: you know, trigger warning for assault, but he has his

1855
01:42:48,680 --> 01:42:52,639
Speaker 3: hand down her pants and then they're kissing and it's

1856
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:55,120
Speaker 3: not clear if she's consenting to this or not. There

1857
01:42:55,160 --> 01:42:57,559
Speaker 3: was no like him checking in and being like, is

1858
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:00,080
Speaker 3: this the vibe? And then all of a sudden and.

1859
01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:03,080
Speaker 1: Then people said all the time back then, right, is.

1860
01:43:03,200 --> 01:43:06,120
Speaker 3: It was of the time and the and the consent

1861
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:09,080
Speaker 3: is so murky, and consent is something that should never

1862
01:43:09,120 --> 01:43:11,960
Speaker 3: be murky gray area thing obviously.

1863
01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:13,920
Speaker 1: Which it's like, but tell that to a movie in

1864
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 1: two thousand and see how they do.

1865
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 3: Right, and then post that they are in love with

1866
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 3: each other.

1867
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 1: So then she's riding on his horse, right, You're like, yeah,

1868
01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:30,559
Speaker 1: that was pretty bleak, right, hated it, And again it's

1869
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:33,360
Speaker 1: like but it's also like not the first time we

1870
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:37,960
Speaker 1: have seen that where it's like this captivity is this

1871
01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:43,360
Speaker 1: is this big draw to a relationship, just a different

1872
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 1: kind of captivity. And then the way that their relationship

1873
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:51,000
Speaker 1: ends is she has no say like it's it sucks

1874
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:53,040
Speaker 1: at the end where she's like, I really please don't

1875
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:54,479
Speaker 1: send me back to my family. I want to be

1876
01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:58,439
Speaker 1: here with you, and he's like, no, if we oh

1877
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:00,720
Speaker 1: he's doing he's doing like some d chest in this

1878
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:02,599
Speaker 1: moment where he's like, well, if we had a kid,

1879
01:44:03,240 --> 01:44:08,519
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want her to stay here. So I'm telling

1880
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:11,000
Speaker 1: you that you have to go back. And I was

1881
01:44:11,040 --> 01:44:15,040
Speaker 1: like what, and she's like, I guess. So I was like, no,

1882
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:18,320
Speaker 1: you could kill him. They're like, why are you agreeing

1883
01:44:18,400 --> 01:44:18,720
Speaker 1: to this?

1884
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:22,559
Speaker 3: Plus, like her whole thing has been I don't want

1885
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:26,200
Speaker 3: to be trapped, not that every relationship is a prison.

1886
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:29,720
Speaker 3: Caitlin try to remember that I'm talking to myself, But

1887
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:32,479
Speaker 3: like it seems like not only does she want to

1888
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:35,479
Speaker 3: be out of the confines of this arranged marriage, but

1889
01:44:35,520 --> 01:44:40,920
Speaker 3: she doesn't seem particularly interested in kind of long term companionship.

1890
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm just kind of filling in the blanks, but

1891
01:44:43,760 --> 01:44:45,680
Speaker 3: I don't quite understand.

1892
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:47,760
Speaker 1: I think it's like kind of open to interpretation. I

1893
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:48,080
Speaker 1: don't know.

1894
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:49,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.

1895
01:44:50,320 --> 01:44:51,479
Speaker 1: I do have to go soon.

1896
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:55,920
Speaker 3: Okay, I think that was everything I had.

1897
01:44:56,040 --> 01:44:58,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, me, is there anything else that we haven't

1898
01:44:58,960 --> 01:44:59,320
Speaker 1: touched on?

1899
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:00,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're good.

1900
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:05,400
Speaker 1: All right, cool, then, uh, we've we've already discussed one

1901
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:10,240
Speaker 1: pretty incredible pass of the Bechdel test. I want to

1902
01:45:10,280 --> 01:45:13,439
Speaker 1: shout it out one more time. Let me avenge my

1903
01:45:13,479 --> 01:45:17,320
Speaker 1: mother's death response, You'll soon be like her, you little whore.

1904
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:23,720
Speaker 1: And that's going into the pantheon of my favorite my

1905
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:26,839
Speaker 1: favorite passes that you can't say it's not plot relevant,

1906
01:45:27,040 --> 01:45:33,160
Speaker 1: and they certainly both have names. Uh yeah that I laughed.

1907
01:45:33,400 --> 01:45:35,559
Speaker 1: I l O l' when that one came out. I

1908
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:39,120
Speaker 1: was like, wooo. I mean but the movie, the movie

1909
01:45:39,120 --> 01:45:44,280
Speaker 1: passes constantly because you have so many scenes between our

1910
01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:46,240
Speaker 1: two main characters. You also have a ton of scenes

1911
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:50,280
Speaker 1: between Shen and Jade Fox, and yeah, there's there's plenty

1912
01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:52,720
Speaker 1: of discussion about all sorts of shit.

1913
01:45:52,960 --> 01:45:57,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. And uh that brings us to our nipple scale,

1914
01:45:57,640 --> 01:46:00,639
Speaker 3: our scale where we rate the movie famous perfect Scott

1915
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:06,080
Speaker 3: zero two five nipples based on examining the movie through

1916
01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:11,960
Speaker 3: an intersectional feminist lens, I would still give this like

1917
01:46:12,640 --> 01:46:14,960
Speaker 3: maybe like a three and a half or four nipples.

1918
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:18,360
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot to like and appreciate about

1919
01:46:18,479 --> 01:46:24,479
Speaker 3: this movie. I love that it's driven by women, that

1920
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:30,680
Speaker 3: it is exploring like gender politics and gender expectations. You know,

1921
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:35,120
Speaker 3: could have maybe gone further with that. I would have

1922
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:39,639
Speaker 3: liked to have seen more, like more backstory for Schulin.

1923
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:42,040
Speaker 3: I wanted to just kind of know more about her

1924
01:46:42,120 --> 01:46:46,000
Speaker 3: character in general, because she is sort of The movie

1925
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:49,600
Speaker 3: doesn't reduce her to Mubai's love interest the way the

1926
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:53,559
Speaker 3: trailer does, but a big component of her character is like,

1927
01:46:54,520 --> 01:46:56,519
Speaker 3: you know, revolving around her.

1928
01:46:57,920 --> 01:47:01,240
Speaker 1: The only counterparint I have to that is that I

1929
01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:05,000
Speaker 1: don't know anytime a kind of a relationship, even when

1930
01:47:05,080 --> 01:47:10,520
Speaker 1: it's with a man more boring than you, is connected

1931
01:47:10,560 --> 01:47:14,519
Speaker 1: to what your definition of personal fulfillment and freedom is.

1932
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm like a little more lenient about it because we

1933
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:19,640
Speaker 1: see so we see that it's like it's not like

1934
01:47:19,760 --> 01:47:23,439
Speaker 1: she wants to ditch everything else in her life. It's

1935
01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:27,520
Speaker 1: just she wants a relationship and the life she has

1936
01:47:27,960 --> 01:47:30,120
Speaker 1: that is yeah, fair, I'm getting defensive.

1937
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 3: No, I agree, and I and I Yeah, Like we've

1938
01:47:35,040 --> 01:47:39,759
Speaker 3: talked about this before, but it's hard for like modern

1939
01:47:39,800 --> 01:47:45,960
Speaker 3: feminists to particularly like women who are attracted to men

1940
01:47:46,240 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 3: and might want to be in relationships with them. It's

1941
01:47:49,120 --> 01:47:52,720
Speaker 3: a difficult thing to reconcile that sometimes, at least for me.

1942
01:47:53,080 --> 01:47:55,519
Speaker 3: I don't want to speak for everyone, but like, I've

1943
01:47:55,520 --> 01:47:59,879
Speaker 3: found that to be just a difficult thing to balance,

1944
01:48:00,240 --> 01:48:01,040
Speaker 3: but it is.

1945
01:48:01,120 --> 01:48:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like that's but that's like part

1946
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:04,400
Speaker 1: of Schulen's.

1947
01:48:04,320 --> 01:48:07,400
Speaker 3: Journey, which is maybe more interesting than I'm giving it

1948
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:11,960
Speaker 3: credit for. So just forget I said anything about it.

1949
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:16,400
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think there are a lot of interesting

1950
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:22,120
Speaker 3: female characters and interesting relationship dynamics between women. I always

1951
01:48:22,120 --> 01:48:26,280
Speaker 3: love to see that in movies. Also, I read a

1952
01:48:26,320 --> 01:48:29,920
Speaker 3: lot of pieces from Asian American writers who were saying

1953
01:48:30,080 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 3: how much they appreciated that they were able to see

1954
01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:36,519
Speaker 3: characters who look like them in this big action movie

1955
01:48:36,960 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 3: at a time where Asian representation was super low. I

1956
01:48:42,160 --> 01:48:48,320
Speaker 3: mean it's historically and still quite low in mainstream Hollywood,

1957
01:48:49,080 --> 01:48:52,959
Speaker 3: so you know, they appreciated the representation of strong, powerful

1958
01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:57,479
Speaker 3: Asian women. And then the fight scenes, like just every

1959
01:48:57,520 --> 01:49:00,240
Speaker 3: fight scene in this movie. And this is like me

1960
01:49:00,320 --> 01:49:05,559
Speaker 3: speaking extremely like surface level movie analysis here, but they

1961
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:10,480
Speaker 3: I think all involve Jen and they're all so fucking incredible,

1962
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:13,840
Speaker 3: Like it's just awesome. I'd love to just see women

1963
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:16,280
Speaker 3: fighting on screen in an action movie. I like to

1964
01:49:16,280 --> 01:49:20,960
Speaker 3: see women participating in the action. It's you know, simple

1965
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:26,519
Speaker 3: brain thing, but I like it. I don't appreciate how

1966
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:31,840
Speaker 3: Jade Fox is framed as a villainous character. Her like

1967
01:49:32,040 --> 01:49:35,800
Speaker 3: contempt and resentment is super valid, like she has been

1968
01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:41,479
Speaker 3: deceived and undervalued and underestimated by different people like throughout

1969
01:49:41,479 --> 01:49:46,479
Speaker 3: her life, and she's potentially been abused by that mentor guy.

1970
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:50,200
Speaker 3: But the movie still treats her as this like bitter

1971
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:53,400
Speaker 3: old woman, villainous woman.

1972
01:49:54,160 --> 01:49:54,400
Speaker 1: Uh.

1973
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:58,720
Speaker 3: And also because she is an older woman who is

1974
01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:03,040
Speaker 3: resentful of a younger woman, which is something you see

1975
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:08,160
Speaker 3: a lot in media. It is often uncontextualized. It's just like, well,

1976
01:50:08,160 --> 01:50:11,320
Speaker 3: this is just how older women feel, duh. At least

1977
01:50:11,360 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 3: it's contextualized in this case.

1978
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:15,400
Speaker 1: But but then it still does the thing anyways, still

1979
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:16,120
Speaker 1: does a thing anyway.

1980
01:50:16,320 --> 01:50:19,400
Speaker 3: So I don't know a lot of the host, the

1981
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:22,200
Speaker 3: historical and cultural context I was not super familiar with.

1982
01:50:22,320 --> 01:50:24,839
Speaker 3: So thank you again, Mia for all of your insight.

1983
01:50:26,920 --> 01:50:32,919
Speaker 3: I'll give the movie for nipples. I'll give one to Schulin,

1984
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:37,960
Speaker 3: two to Jade Fox Justice for Jade, and I'll give

1985
01:50:38,320 --> 01:50:44,960
Speaker 3: the fourth nipple to the daughter of the police inspector

1986
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:48,960
Speaker 3: Ye who's in that few scenes and who I think

1987
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:54,400
Speaker 3: is also like dating Bo, but I'm not really sure anyway. Yeah,

1988
01:50:54,439 --> 01:50:55,240
Speaker 3: that's that's it.

1989
01:50:55,479 --> 01:50:56,960
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna give mine, and then I have to

1990
01:50:57,000 --> 01:50:59,639
Speaker 1: jump off. I'm really sorry. Okay, no worries. I will

1991
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:04,040
Speaker 1: meet you at four. Yeah. I think the historical context

1992
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 1: of this movie and then how that sort of contrasts

1993
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:11,360
Speaker 1: with the way it was marketed in the West and

1994
01:51:11,360 --> 01:51:13,640
Speaker 1: how it was discussed in the West is like a

1995
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:18,599
Speaker 1: very particular moment in history, and I just I'm gonna

1996
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:23,000
Speaker 1: be thinking about for days how this movie can be

1997
01:51:23,160 --> 01:51:27,080
Speaker 1: identified to a pretty specific time period. But most Western

1998
01:51:27,160 --> 01:51:31,080
Speaker 1: viewers just didn't have the knowledge or on the part

1999
01:51:31,080 --> 01:51:34,720
Speaker 1: of the reviewers, the interest in figuring out what you

2000
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:36,000
Speaker 1: figured out very easily.

2001
01:51:36,040 --> 01:51:38,240
Speaker 2: The academics didn't do it either. I'm so baffled.

2002
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:43,720
Speaker 1: Okayard to this day, the Wikipedia page says it could

2003
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:46,160
Speaker 1: have happened anywhere in these four hundred years. We don't

2004
01:51:46,200 --> 01:51:53,120
Speaker 1: really tell like, okay, so the historical context, and I

2005
01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:57,679
Speaker 1: think also the like you're just talking about the framing

2006
01:51:57,760 --> 01:52:02,800
Speaker 1: of both older women and and the character of Low

2007
01:52:02,880 --> 01:52:06,200
Speaker 1: and the way that he's framed and called a barbarian.

2008
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:08,680
Speaker 1: And then it does act without consent. It just it

2009
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:11,320
Speaker 1: feels like it's reinforcing a lot of negative stereotypes on

2010
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:14,519
Speaker 1: top of making assault seem romantic. So just really some

2011
01:52:14,560 --> 01:52:18,080
Speaker 1: of the some of the the worst things you can do.

2012
01:52:18,920 --> 01:52:22,800
Speaker 1: And then I'm like that said four nipples. Unfortunately, this

2013
01:52:22,880 --> 01:52:28,400
Speaker 1: movie just fucking rocks, Like it's really really good. And

2014
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:32,320
Speaker 1: the movie is absolutely driven by women, which in a

2015
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:35,400
Speaker 1: movie that's successful in the West in two thousand is

2016
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:41,480
Speaker 1: pretty unheard of, especially women that are not constantly sexualized.

2017
01:52:41,479 --> 01:52:44,120
Speaker 1: Because this is also the same year Charlie's Angels comes out,

2018
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:47,599
Speaker 1: which is an action movie driven by women, but at

2019
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:52,679
Speaker 1: what cost? And so I think this movie is doing

2020
01:52:52,680 --> 01:52:55,599
Speaker 1: a lot of really unique things, and it also has

2021
01:52:55,840 --> 01:52:58,360
Speaker 1: plenty of issues. And I'm glad we got to talk

2022
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:01,000
Speaker 1: about It's that I've I would feel so lucky I

2023
01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:02,479
Speaker 1: get to see this in a theater. It was so

2024
01:53:02,560 --> 01:53:05,080
Speaker 1: fun fun. I'm going to give all my nipples to

2025
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:08,520
Speaker 1: the legend Jade Fox because I really think that she

2026
01:53:08,520 --> 01:53:11,560
Speaker 1: she did zero crimes. When you think about it, you

2027
01:53:11,760 --> 01:53:12,559
Speaker 1: should honor that.

2028
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:16,960
Speaker 3: We should respect her for sure. Yes, uh miyah, how

2029
01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:17,320
Speaker 3: about you?

2030
01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:20,280
Speaker 2: Okay. So I'm holding a grudge against this movie for

2031
01:53:20,360 --> 01:53:22,800
Speaker 2: the fact that the most easy interpretation of the ending

2032
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:27,519
Speaker 2: is so Jen gets told by Chulian be true to yourself, right,

2033
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:29,000
Speaker 2: go like live the life you want to do, and

2034
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:33,040
Speaker 2: then she immediately jumps off a cliff, right, I I'm

2035
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:35,880
Speaker 2: mad about that. That pisses and like, yeah, I was like, oh,

2036
01:53:35,960 --> 01:53:39,520
Speaker 2: there's in feminist interpretations, but like the most obvious interpretation

2037
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:42,040
Speaker 2: is that she was like, oh my god, I can't

2038
01:53:42,040 --> 01:53:44,000
Speaker 2: live with being free, and then she jumped off a cliff,

2039
01:53:44,040 --> 01:53:48,360
Speaker 2: which is like an INCREDI an unbelievably reactionary like like

2040
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:51,479
Speaker 2: and that being the most easy surface level reading to

2041
01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:53,240
Speaker 2: have pisces me off a.

2042
01:53:53,200 --> 01:53:56,479
Speaker 5: Lot, right, Like I was very angry when that movie

2043
01:53:56,600 --> 01:53:58,920
Speaker 5: ended because that's just like really.

2044
01:53:59,120 --> 01:54:02,960
Speaker 2: Like I know, it jokes off a cliff.

2045
01:54:02,880 --> 01:54:06,080
Speaker 3: Like really, yeah, It's like that could have ended so

2046
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:11,400
Speaker 3: many like why doesn't Shoolin start training Jen, Like if

2047
01:54:11,439 --> 01:54:14,000
Speaker 3: the whole thing was like she needs more training or

2048
01:54:14,080 --> 01:54:17,080
Speaker 3: like there's so many way, you know she if Jen

2049
01:54:17,240 --> 01:54:19,640
Speaker 3: was like yeah, I thought about it, and like I

2050
01:54:19,680 --> 01:54:23,599
Speaker 3: said before, this relationship is over low so see you later.

2051
01:54:23,680 --> 01:54:26,200
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go do other stuff like it could have.

2052
01:54:26,439 --> 01:54:28,720
Speaker 3: But then and again, I know there's a lot of

2053
01:54:28,760 --> 01:54:32,840
Speaker 3: like metaphorical and spiritual ways to interpret how the ending goes,

2054
01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:36,480
Speaker 3: but just kind of taking it at face value is

2055
01:54:36,600 --> 01:54:42,000
Speaker 3: like what but yeah, I agree, Yeah, So what do

2056
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:43,520
Speaker 3: you what's your nipple rating.

2057
01:54:43,760 --> 01:54:46,520
Speaker 2: I'm giving I don't know. I'm gonna grudgingly give it

2058
01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:49,600
Speaker 2: three fair because I think there's a lot going on

2059
01:54:49,640 --> 01:54:52,440
Speaker 2: here that's good. There's a lot going on here that's weird. Sure,

2060
01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:55,400
Speaker 2: try to figure out how to no. I feel like

2061
01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:59,120
Speaker 2: Jade Fox is the most wronged character in this whole series.

2062
01:54:59,240 --> 01:55:02,000
Speaker 2: I'm for sure, I'm gonna I'm gonna follow giving them

2063
01:55:02,000 --> 01:55:06,360
Speaker 2: all to her because like she she deserved so much

2064
01:55:06,400 --> 01:55:10,560
Speaker 2: better than every single person from like every single person

2065
01:55:10,600 --> 01:55:14,080
Speaker 2: she encounters screws her over from a different subject position,

2066
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:17,560
Speaker 2: which is like a really sort of yeah, incredible way

2067
01:55:17,600 --> 01:55:18,800
Speaker 2: to get screwed.

2068
01:55:19,200 --> 01:55:22,760
Speaker 3: Like yeah, like why at no point is Mubai like

2069
01:55:23,200 --> 01:55:26,920
Speaker 3: you started the training, I'll help you finish it. Jade Fox,

2070
01:55:27,640 --> 01:55:31,440
Speaker 3: like he doesn't bother. He's only concerned about training. Like

2071
01:55:31,480 --> 01:55:35,240
Speaker 3: a younger woman. It's everyone wrongs her.

2072
01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean's she's just he's just utterly And this

2073
01:55:38,040 --> 01:55:39,960
Speaker 2: is the other thing, Like the only time he really

2074
01:55:40,000 --> 01:55:43,200
Speaker 2: shows emotion in the entire thing is when he's killing

2075
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:46,520
Speaker 2: Jade Fox, and he is like pissed, and it's like

2076
01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:48,520
Speaker 2: like yeah, okay, like I get, I get it's the

2077
01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:50,840
Speaker 2: kung fu, like you killed my master, but this this

2078
01:55:50,880 --> 01:55:52,600
Speaker 2: is one of those like this is one of those

2079
01:55:52,600 --> 01:55:54,160
Speaker 2: things where you look at that and you go, there's

2080
01:55:54,160 --> 01:55:57,720
Speaker 2: extenuating circumstances. I don't know it.

2081
01:55:58,040 --> 01:56:01,160
Speaker 3: It's frustrating for sure.

2082
01:56:01,280 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sucked. Glad she killed him in the end.

2083
01:56:05,160 --> 01:56:06,240
Speaker 2: That was great.

2084
01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, so three nipples all to Jade Fox. So thank

2085
01:56:10,920 --> 01:56:15,160
Speaker 3: you so much for joining us for this discussion. It

2086
01:56:15,240 --> 01:56:19,120
Speaker 3: was such a treat. Come back anytime. And what would

2087
01:56:19,120 --> 01:56:22,800
Speaker 3: you like to plug? Where can people follow you online? Etc?

2088
01:56:23,560 --> 01:56:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my day job is I'm one of the

2089
01:56:26,240 --> 01:56:30,280
Speaker 2: hosts of the podcast that could happen here. Okay, my

2090
01:56:30,320 --> 01:56:32,440
Speaker 2: specific episode plug is if you don't know what this

2091
01:56:32,560 --> 01:56:33,960
Speaker 2: is and you want to listen to something. We did

2092
01:56:33,960 --> 01:56:36,920
Speaker 2: a series called The War on trans People last year

2093
01:56:37,320 --> 01:56:40,240
Speaker 2: and I think it's still really important because all of

2094
01:56:40,280 --> 01:56:44,360
Speaker 2: that stuff is still going on and it sucks. Oh yeah, yeah.

2095
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter at BCHR three. Yeah.

2096
01:56:48,360 --> 01:56:50,800
Speaker 2: I guess the closing thing I want to plug is

2097
01:56:50,920 --> 01:56:55,040
Speaker 2: that kung fu movie I briefly mentioned earlier, Packing Opera Blues,

2098
01:56:55,400 --> 01:56:58,120
Speaker 2: because Picking Up a Blues is a movie about three

2099
01:56:58,240 --> 01:57:02,000
Speaker 2: lesbians overthrowing a bill dictatorship and then house having sleepovers

2100
01:57:02,240 --> 01:57:06,080
Speaker 2: and it rips. Movie is so good. I love it.

2101
01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:09,200
Speaker 2: It's also released like fourteen years before this one, No.

2102
01:57:09,160 --> 01:57:13,919
Speaker 3: Kidding, because this movie, like, despite its flaws, like feels

2103
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:16,800
Speaker 3: ahead of its time for the year two thousand, so

2104
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:19,080
Speaker 3: that one feels even more.

2105
01:57:19,200 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a it's a trip. It's also

2106
01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:25,160
Speaker 2: about a period of Chinese history that nobody other than

2107
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:27,920
Speaker 2: me has spent significate. Well that's not true. Me, a

2108
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:30,520
Speaker 2: bunch of weird war gramiers and four academics has spent

2109
01:57:30,560 --> 01:57:32,680
Speaker 2: a bunch of time studying, which is like like the

2110
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:35,320
Speaker 2: war lord people. Well, I guess the pre warlord periods

2111
01:57:35,320 --> 01:57:37,640
Speaker 2: of there's a period right after the Chinese Revolution but

2112
01:57:37,720 --> 01:57:40,400
Speaker 2: before this guy dies, where China is ruled by this

2113
01:57:40,440 --> 01:57:42,840
Speaker 2: guy named Yunxikai, who's just like this. She's the guy

2114
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:44,320
Speaker 2: who gets put in charge of China because he has

2115
01:57:44,320 --> 01:57:47,120
Speaker 2: the largest army at the end of the revolution, and

2116
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:50,640
Speaker 2: he sucks and everyone hates him, and this is a

2117
01:57:50,680 --> 01:57:52,840
Speaker 2: movie about people trying to overthrow him, and it rips

2118
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:56,640
Speaker 2: into the time period that gets no attention ever. So yeah,

2119
01:57:56,680 --> 01:57:57,200
Speaker 2: it's cool.

2120
01:57:57,440 --> 01:58:01,680
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, well yeah, thanks again for coming on the show.

2121
01:58:02,360 --> 01:58:06,000
Speaker 3: Check out that movie, check out it could happen here.

2122
01:58:07,240 --> 01:58:10,480
Speaker 3: You can follow the Bechdel Cast on Twitter and Instagram

2123
01:58:10,520 --> 01:58:14,520
Speaker 3: at Bechdel Cast. You can also subscribe to our Patreon

2124
01:58:14,600 --> 01:58:18,760
Speaker 3: aka Matreon. You get two bonus episodes a month, plus

2125
01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:22,240
Speaker 3: access to the back catalog that can all be found

2126
01:58:22,320 --> 01:58:25,560
Speaker 3: at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, as well as

2127
01:58:25,680 --> 01:58:30,760
Speaker 3: our merch at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast

2128
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:36,839
Speaker 3: for all of your merchandising needs. And with that, let's

2129
01:58:36,920 --> 01:58:40,320
Speaker 3: go not jump off a mountain.

2130
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:40,920
Speaker 1: Bye.