WEBVTT - The Harvey Weinstein in Your Industry 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.080 Over fifty women have come out with stories of alleged 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.760 sexual assault and harassment by Harvey Weinstein. But sexual harassment 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.960 in the workplace isn't a problem unique to Hollywood. It's everywhere. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:27.280 This is game plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.560 francesco Leavy, and this week we are talking about sexual 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:34.800 harassment in the workplace yet again, because it's not going away. 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.320 The Harvey Weinstein scandal has started a huge conversation about 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.600 harassment pretty much everywhere. Yeah. I think some of the 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.080 early reactions were to say, look at Hollywood, this is 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.600 an industry that's just set up for powerful men to 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.360 abuse women. And actually it's it's not just Hollywood, And 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:55.440 I think that it's a mistake to look at one 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.680 industry and try to point fingers, because very quickly lots 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.320 of other revelations about women in all kinds of workplaces 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.360 started coming out, And following the first wave of allegations 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:11.640 against Weinstein, there was the social media campaign hashtag me 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.800 Too that I don't know about you, but I saw 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.839 everywhere on my Facebook and Twitter, and it asked women 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.760 either specifically or generally to post on their social media 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.080 if they've been assaulted or sexually harassed in the workplace, 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.800 and basically pretty much everyone has. My first thought was 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.360 this applies to literally a hundred percent of the women 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.640 I know, like so that if anybody isn't posting this hashtag, 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:39.120 it's because they decided that they weren't going to, you know, 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.480 make a personal social media post, not because you know, 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.680 they can't find an example of something like this happening 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.920 to them. And it really has, as you say, it's everywhere, 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.640 and it has I think been somewhat successful in raising 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.440 the level of conversation here to just show the ubiquity 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:56.840 of what goes on. And you know, lots of women 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.720 have examples of little small things or much bigger and 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.800 more traumatic things that have happened to them. But part 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.120 of the goal seems to be to just raise awareness, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.600 and I think it's really done that. Yeah. I think 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.840 something that does feel different than before, maybe I'm being optimistic, 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:16.080 is that it's not even just more conversation, but more 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.280 things seem to be happening because of this. It seems 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.440 like people are calling out for identifying the Harvey Weinstein 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.640 in your industry, because there definitely is one. We saw 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.360 this in our own industry. There was something called the 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:34.280 Shitty Media Men List that quickly surfaced shortly after the 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.160 Weinstein allegations. It was a Google doc that had anonymous 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.240 allegations against men and media. It was very controversial and 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.560 quickly got taken down. But I think the point of 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.160 it was to show like, this is happening in our 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.200 industry and people want to do something about it, and 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.840 just to drive home how not specific to one industry. 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.720 This is we quickly compiled. It didn't take us very long, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.120 a not at all exhaustive list of industries that have 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.240 had harassment scandals in just the last year so, just 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:11.560 following the Weinstein allegations. Employees have complained about an abuse 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.880 of workplace and sexual harassment at Fidelity, where at least 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.800 one person was forced to resign because of his behavior. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.120 There was a big scandal that emerged out of the 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:26.120 National Park Service last year that revealed this huge issue 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:30.079 with assault and harassment against female park rangers. In the 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.679 linguistics world, there was a big scandal a major professor 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.040 at the University of Rochester has been accused of harassment 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.880 by his grad students. If you thought industries that market 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.680 to women might be safe from these kinds of scandals. 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:48.720 You were wrong. The company that owns K Jewelers had 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:54.080 its own scandal where widespread allegations of sexual harassment and 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.840 gender discrimination caused the retailer to have a huge board 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.680 change and stock plunge. And of course, there was the 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.640 Fox News scandal involving Roger Ales and Bill O'Reilly. There 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.560 was the scandal at uber, which has forced the company 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:14.360 to completely rethink its entire strategy and leadership. In the 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.200 fintech world so far has been dealing with its own 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.239 harassment allegations. I think we should just start naming industries 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.000 because we're gonna run out of time here. We have 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:28.200 Antarctic geologists, um, the California State legislature, the military. Oh, 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.760 and let's not forget the President of the United States 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.120 of America. So it's wide spread everywhere. This is not 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.479 just Hollywood, This is not just media. This is probably 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.440 happening in your industry too. What's interesting is a lot 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:45.400 of these stories have things in common. It's usually powerful 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:51.240 men against people in positions with lass power. Obviously that's 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.479 what happened in the Weinstein allegations. Are a lot of 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.599 these high profile actors at big media companies. There's often 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:01.080 an underlying element of every buddy kind of new or 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.120 kind of suspected. Either certain bad actors had a bad 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.640 reputation or there was a culture that everyone kind of 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.920 accepted and nobody, no individual took a stand against. Yeah, 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.520 we see that kind of thing play out with the 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.400 shitty medium endless that we mentioned earlier. A lot of 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:23.400 these things are open secrets, are are part of whisper campaigns, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.640 and it's just being codified on a document. People don't 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:32.200 feel confident making allegations, maybe because they've only heard rumors 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.080 or you know, they've been warned away from someone or 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.320 something did happen to them, but it's so normalized in 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.480 the company or industry culture that they rationalize it, or 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:44.360 they wonder if it really is a big enough deal, 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.880 or if they reported is going to cause more trouble 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.760 than one little comment or a bunch of comments or 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.360 a bunch of being interrupted in meetings or passed over 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.919 for promotions. Yeah, and then you a list kind of 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.239 has power because it shows you that maybe you aren't 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.560 the only one that's happened to And other people are 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.680 saying that it did make them feel like they were 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.960 harassed and it can it can give your experience a 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.720 lot more power. Yeah, it kind of explains why a 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.159 lot of these allegations seemed to come out in these 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:14.240 huge waves. It's not like all of these people just 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.160 woke up, you know, and a couple of subsequent mornings 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.600 and decided to accuse someone. It's it's that they gain 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.039 strength from other people making reports that they themselves had 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.440 either been discouraged from making, or had just made the 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.839 decision not to make for their own careers, or another 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:31.840 thing we see in common as people do make the 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.839 reports and they're not taken seriously, either by their own companies, 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.680 or they're either paid off to keep quiet, or they 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.480 just leave the company. That happens a lot or the industry. 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.040 I think that's one of the sadder things that I've 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:50.160 noticed as a theme in scandals across all these different industries, 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.000 is people saying, I just you know, my only option 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.039 was to was to walk away from this field. You 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.000 saw that in many of the reports from people who 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.479 made allegations against Harvey Weinstein, and we've seen it in 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.760 other industries to people saying this. And the sad thing is, 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.600 as we're realizing there's no industry that's safe from this. 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.000 So you might just get fed up with the culture 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.760 in your own industry and decide I'm going to step 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.200 out of this, But you'll be pretty hard pressed to 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.200 find another industry that doesn't have its own, similar but 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.960 slightly different set of problems. When you put it that way, 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.480 the problem sounds really insurmountable. But even though all these 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.600 cases have a lot of things in common, each industry 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.400 and company needs to deal with it in their very 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.640 own specific ways. Our guest today is a great example 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:38.960 of someone who saw need in her own industry and 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.520 took some small steps that are adding up to hopefully 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:50.240 some bigger changes. Beth Alpert Nicai is an archaeologist and 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:54.320 an associate professor at the University of Arizona that saw 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.200 a problem with gender based harassment in her field, But 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.200 when she wants to find research on it, she is 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.080 that there were more papers on the significance of pigs 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:11.000 than on women. She's not researching the problem herself. So 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.520 when did you realize that sexual harassment and gender based 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:19.080 discrimination was a problem in your field? I would say 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.720 that it's always clear that it's a problem in the field. Um, 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:28.040 when I began going to professional meetings of the Annual 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.280 Conference of American Schools of Oriental Research, which is the 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:37.040 professional organization for mostly North Americans but some others who 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.480 do archaeological field work in the Middle East, North Africa, 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.319 but around the Mediterranean basin. It was clear that almost 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.640 everybody there with a man. And it's always been clear 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.560 that pretty much everyone who runs an excavation project in 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.320 the field is a man. So the information it has 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:01.040 always been there, but I didn't really articular the problem 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:06.280 of dangers in the field per se until two thousand 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:10.520 and fourteen when I read an article that for Biological 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:15.120 Anthropologists published I'm the results of a survey they did 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:21.840 on harassment and assault in anthropological field sites, field projects 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.800 um in remote locations. That I realized that this is 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.320 something that made it can be dealt with in my 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.559 own field as well. And what is it about a dig? 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.520 And maybe for those of us who aren't familiar, you 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.079 can give us some sense of what a dig is like. 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.640 What is it about a dig that opens it up 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.199 to more opportunities for just sort of discrimination and harassment. 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.560 So for people who are working on excavations abroad, and 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.240 I'm only going to speak about the area I'm familiar with. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.240 Of course, we're all people who have traveled. Most of 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.640 us have traveled from some place else. We're living in. 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.880 Often we're moat field locations in UM countries where we 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.000 may we're unlikely to know the legal system, we may 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.120 not know the language, we may not be familiar with 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.640 the country in general, know how to move ourselves around, 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.960 how to access help people talk about that and not 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.760 just for archaeologists, as a state of exception, which both 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:27.240 makes people vulnerable too things happening in this kind of 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.840 isolated setting, but also makes some people feel like whatever 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.360 they do they're there, they can do the laws at 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.880 home where the social morays that they have at home 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:43.000 no longer applied to them, So it um. I mean, 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.400 excavations can be and often are really great places to 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.320 work and exciting and positive. But they also have the 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:55.800 potential setting a lot of people together um who are 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.600 on most of them on summer vacation from their normal 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.720 law of doing something very physical, very intense and in 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:08.160 a fine space and living together five or six days, 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.960 and we also has the potential to to allow for 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.800 problems to take place. Can you give us some idea 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:20.959 of some specific examples of what discrimination and harassment might 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:26.560 look like in this really specific field. A lot of 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.080 what I heard about. I launched a survey in two 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:33.040 thousand and fourteen, and I relaunched it in two thousand 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:37.199 and fifteen and called its survey on Field Safety Middle East, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.480 North Africa and the Mediterranean Basin. I ended up with 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:47.079 over three hundred responses. And the kinds of violations that 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:51.600 people talk to me about often were things relating to 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:57.400 abuse of power, where people, particularly women, felt that their 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:02.760 contributions were value, that they lost control of their own 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.720 work on a site, so um they weren't able to 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.559 continue working on material they were working on on the 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:14.079 site once they left that excavation project, and that hadn't 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:18.480 been what was anticipated. So there were problems. Some problems 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.800 related to like an abusive authority that resulted in hampering 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:28.000 people's professional progress, whether they Most commonly that was for 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:32.360 people who are doctoral students, but also there were stories 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:39.319 of physical assaults or demigrations. Instances many were people were 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.600 made to feel unsafe physically or where they were unsafe 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:49.000 physically and they had no recourse to help. Excavations might 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.440 not have often don't have a set up, at least 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.120 at that time. It's getting better now, but have a 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:59.520 setup where if something happens in the in the States, 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.640 you might think, oh, well, I can call the police, 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.080 I can report it to the human resources department in 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:10.400 my UM university campus. But out there it's hard to 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.800 know who to report it to. If the excavation directors 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.240 are not supportive, then people are pretty much out of luck. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.480 And so those were the kinds of, say, two different 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.080 kinds of problems that people that people UM kind of 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.920 quester them, that people were particularly concerned about. One of 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.640 the things that you also found in your research was 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.640 an ambivalence about reporting. And we see that in a 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.000 lot of industries. So I'm wondering, why is that something 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:44.920 that you're seeing specifically in archaeology. In the field, people 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:50.720 are in such isolated places. And I do think that sometimes, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.439 and this may be true for undergraduate to comm as 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.760 part of it an academic program and work on and 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.679 excavations UM, the freedom of being abroad and and and 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.320 and not having the normal constraints of life might make 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:12.319 things seem interesting that back home wouldn't have seemed acceptable 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.280 at all. UM. They might also not have the confidence 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.960 to something happens that they feel was wrong, they were 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.600 in some way abused by a supervisor, they may not 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.320 have the confidence to go and report it there. So 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:33.160 there's that level of you know, it's a foreign country, 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.400 I don't know quite what to do, I don't know 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.680 quite who to report it to. UM. I think that's 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:45.480 part of the problem, and I'm not singling out university undergraduates. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.480 Are a lot of people who end up feeling oppressed 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.479 by it in some way or intimidated by a superior 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.400 and don't have the courage to report it. Book For 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.480 these people, there's no going home. You can't be any 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.160 place else. So every day for the rest of the 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:04.120 excubation season, you're facing the exact same people and living 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.520 in that exact same situation that you know you can't 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:09.720 just like hop on a bus and get back home 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.720 again for the weekend and not and not return. It 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.200 makes it complicated. The other part of reporting is when 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.040 the people who are abusive our supervisors as and your 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.280 say a graduate student, your researcher, and your access to 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.479 the materials you're working on depend on maintaining a positive 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:35.680 relationship with your superiors on the excavation side. Then you lose, 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.760 you riff, the loss of the materials you might be 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.840 using for your doctoral dissertation. If that happens, do you 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.640 have to drop out of school? People do? I mean, 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.920 I've heard stories about people who said, this happened and 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.800 I left the shield. This happened to me too many times. 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.320 I couldn't take it anymore, and I left the field altogether. 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.400 I'm no longer involved in archaeology. I just saw your 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:04.160 survey and filled it out. So you know, those are 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:10.000 professional calls that people make. But when people are graduate students, 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.920 doctoral candidates, say vulnerable to the whims of their dissertation 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:19.640 supervisors or their excavation directors, they don't have control over 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:25.160 um their own lives from that from a professional perspective. So, 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.720 since you've done this research, now you're working on making 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:29.880 digs safer, can you talk about some of the changes 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.360 that you've pushed. The first part of what I did 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:36.640 was of course, collecting data and find out what it 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.560 is that's what it is that's wrong, and begin to 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.240 think about what might remediate that, what might fix the 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:48.200 problems that people were are experiencing. When I started working 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.280 on this, I was a member of the board at 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.960 American Schools of Oriental Research. I had been working in 0:16:55.080 --> 0:17:01.160 general on women's issues, and I heard the Oranization's Initiative 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:05.520 on the Status of Women, which was newly created. I 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.800 was or remained the first chair for it, and so 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.960 I had a platform to begin talking to the board 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:19.360 of trustees about gender safety and gender equity issues, and 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.480 they were at first startled, but then I think UM 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.879 safety wasn't something that had figured on the agenda previously 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.720 at board meetings, but supportive, and so I began working 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:36.120 within the organization UM within a sort of meeting with 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:42.600 big excavation directors, meeting with UM participants on excavations and 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.919 talking about the need to have clear codes of conduct, 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:52.240 clear reporting mechanisms, someone who is an umbud person who 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:57.919 was well trained to help people handle problems, access to 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.040 good medical care, which excavations surprisingly often don't have. And 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.960 I say surprisingly because physically can be physically dangerous work, 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.360 never mind sexual as sol and we're rock and following 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:13.480 you or something. So it's good medical care seems important. 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:18.000 And I think that in general excavation directors who were 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.960 really interested in how they could improve the safety of 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:27.520 their digs. I never experienced pushback from them UM and 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:32.040 so my original goal was to simply post up on 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.880 the a soor website and disseminated to all the excavation 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:41.800 directors and and people working on digs information about protocols, 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.640 what how to prevent problems, what to do if there 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:49.399 are problems, um, and so forth. But I I didn't 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.439 have the language for it. These things are always legal, 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.879 and I need a good language. So I began working 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.919 on my own campus, University of Arizona, meeting with people 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:05.480 who for ample run UM Study Abroad program for students 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:10.160 undergraduate or graduates to study and do research and foreign countries, 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:16.000 or faculty members who do research in foreign countries or 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.040 teaching foreign countries, everybody who leaves the United States and 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.119 the protection of Title nine and the been Clary Act. 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:27.840 And discovered that there were not a lot of good solutions. 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:32.880 There wasn't language developed. There weren't UM protocols I could post, 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.359 because every country that people go to has its own 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:42.080 laws and its own more rays and customs and so forth, 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.480 so it wasn't possible for anyone to have and across 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.520 the board, if you're in trouble, here's the number to call. 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.240 Here's what you tell the police, here's how you deal 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.120 with the situation, here's how you find your local consulate, 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:56.840 and here's how they fly you back home if that's 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.720 what you want to do, because in some places it's not. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.560 I have to report about sexualists, so you may end 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.840 up being victimized. So it sounds like you're at the 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.439 beginning of the process. People are just thinking about the 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.160 protocols that they have to have. But I'm wondering if 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.359 you have heard anybody say that they do feel safer 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.399 as a result of some of these changes. I have 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:24.000 heard lots of I mean lots of people have, and 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:28.480 this comes both from big directors and participants on excavations, 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.520 whether they're graduate students or their faculty who work on 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:38.960 another person's excavation, say that having this discussion and having 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:43.600 it publicly is helpful and that bringing all of this 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.920 out to the public is something that feels positive to them. 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.560 That they feel that they're gaining, you know, the freedom 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:53.880 to say what they need to say, as well from 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.520 the fact that this is now an open topic. There 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.119 is nobody in American schools of Oriental research or me 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:07.160 at the level of excavation staff excavation directors, UM, senior 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:11.560 participants who are unaware of what these problems are. And 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.919 everybody has access to the statistics, basic statistics, what percent 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.560 of X, Y and Z happens, who it happens to. 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.720 I haven't published the where it happens. What's a safer 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:26.480 country or a less saxe country or the same with 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.600 excavations that keep all that information is confidential. And you 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:32.479 know that's the only reason people talk to me is 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.879 that I don't tell stories publicly. But UM, I think that, 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.480 I mean, I do have a sense that this has 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:45.200 created a positive atmosphere. I'm working on other aspects of 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:51.120 creating a positive work atmosphere for women in archaeology UM 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:54.040 as well. And and so there's a whole conversation taking 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.080 place that UM people are I don't crede it only 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:02.080 myself with that you know, I launched it. Let's say, 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:04.879 a lot of conversations taking place that wouldn't have been 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.600 taking place some years ago. UM. And I think that 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.120 that that people are glad to see that happening. Certainly 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:16.080 women and especially younger women who you know, still have 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:19.560 a lot of work to do before they are old 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:25.399 timeure tackles to somewhere. Um, you know, there is there there. 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.240 I feel like this is an endeavor that that has 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.280 a value and can have a long term value. But 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:34.359 you're right, it's a I'm beginning. I I still have 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.360 to get better information out to excavator is about how 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.119 to prevent and what are good protocols and so forth. 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.800 I'm just a bit stimming, and I keep up in 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:46.760 that University of Arizona comes up with a great solution 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:48.879 packet and then they just email it to me and 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.280 it'll be good to go. But I fear that's not 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.400 unlikely to happen because it's just so hard to do. Well. 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:57.600 Thank you so much for taking the time and talking 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.240 to us, and we really appreciate hearing from you. Thank you. 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:08.080 Even in best story, you hear some of the themes 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:11.120 that we talked about earlier. She mentioned that there are 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:16.720 women who have left archaeology rather than stay and continue 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:20.560 to experience, you know, harassment or discrimination. And yet, even 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.840 though some of this feels so universal across different industries, 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:27.360 her experience also makes it clear that there's a lot 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:31.360 of specifics. There's things about archaeology that make it so 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:35.119 that it has its own particular pitfalls UM that can 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:37.520 lead to discrimination and harassment. And that's that's true for 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:41.480 every single industry. Yeah, and even within archaeology. She was 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:44.399 talking about how each dig needs its own policies and 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:47.240 procedures and that you just couldn't have a blanket statement 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:51.000 that applied to every single site. But I think it's often, 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.679 as we've seen with all these allegations, that's on women 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:56.760 and victims to speak out and speak out until people 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.119 take them seriously, and then it's usually women who are 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:01.520 trying to fix this this them. But I don't think 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:03.359 that that's fair at all to put all of this 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:08.040 on women. The journalist Helen Rasner wrote this Twitter thread 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.160 that went viral and later became a Medium post that 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.399 was a list of twenty things and I'm sure there's 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:18.119 many many more that men can do UM in order 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:23.959 to help women and support women, besides just not being harassers, 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:27.160 which I think most men would consider themselves to not 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.159 be UM. And what struck me about her list, and 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.120 you can find it on Medium, is that it's it's 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:36.399 stuff that goes way way way broader than just you know, 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:40.200 piping up about issues in your own workplace. For men, 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:44.640 it's about actually incorporating more views of women and supporting 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:47.159 women in much more general ways in their lives. And 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:49.879 I think her point was when you do that, you 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:52.640 bring in perspectives that are different from your own, and 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:55.879 they help you see things and empathize with people who 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:59.320 might be experiencing something you've never experienced. Let's be clear, 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:03.119 none of these illusions are saying that men should avoid women, 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.400 because that's definitely not the way to fix things. There 0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:09.480 have been some people who say they're now afraid to 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:13.919 take meetings with women because they might be accused of harassment, which, 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:17.000 first of all, many of the allegations of harassment that 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:21.199 are coming out are not misunderstandings or miscommunications. It's, you know, 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:24.000 someone showing up in a bathroom of naked and asking 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.760