Speaker 1: The yoga of everyday life, the yoga of not cutting
Speaker 1: someone off in traffic, the yoga of not like wanting
Speaker 1: to bust a cap in somebody's ask because they said
Speaker 1: the wrong thing at the wrong time, Like all of that.
Speaker 1: Those moments are the moments where I'm like, Wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I'm glad that I'm breathing. There are
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. As a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unbust Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this
Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. During the pandemic,
Speaker 1: I got super into yoga. I love that I could
Speaker 1: just roll out of matt and do it on my
Speaker 1: kitchen floor. You know, it felt really accessible. Yoga should
Speaker 1: be for everybody, and as much as I love it,
Speaker 1: a lot of times, I have to admit that sometimes
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like it's for everybody, and I think
Speaker 1: that can be true of a lot of fitness in general.
Speaker 1: It can you really exclusionary if you're not thin and white,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it can be really hard to see yourself
Speaker 1: represented in the fitness space at all. Luckily, yoga teacher,
Speaker 1: author advocate, and entrepreneur Jessamine Stanley is using the Internet
Speaker 1: to change that. You know, I never set out to
Speaker 1: have the platform that I have now. I started sharing
Speaker 1: my yoga practice on social media because I wanted to
Speaker 1: find a connection to a yoga community outside of my house.
Speaker 1: I felt very um, I don't know if ostracized is
Speaker 1: the right word, but I definitely did not feel included
Speaker 1: in my local yoga community in North Carolina, and so
Speaker 1: I started sharing my yoga practice on social so that
Speaker 1: I could connect with other practitioners and be like, is
Speaker 1: this how you're practicing triangle pose? Like how do you
Speaker 1: feel about down dog splits? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like I was really just like wanting to connect with
Speaker 1: other people, and so to me, to share my practice
Speaker 1: doesn't really feel like I'm It doesn't feel like anything
Speaker 1: more than existing. It feels like I'm just here. And
Speaker 1: the Internet is a really safe place for introverts like
Speaker 1: me to make community and to find the people that
Speaker 1: we're looking for. And that is really where I land
Speaker 1: with it. And it helps because there is so much
Speaker 1: that comes along with living in a marginalized body and
Speaker 1: showing your life. And I think that if I had
Speaker 1: not set out with those intentions, I think that my
Speaker 1: perspective on it would be a little bit different, could
Speaker 1: be different anyway. What was the process of Jessamine connecting
Speaker 1: with yoga for the first time? Like, so, I literally
Speaker 1: never cared about yoga at all. I one of my
Speaker 1: aunts was obsessed with beak from yoga when I was
Speaker 1: in high school, and so she convinced me to go
Speaker 1: to a class with her when I was sixteen, and
Speaker 1: I hated it. I thought it was the first thing
Speaker 1: in the entire world. And then when I was in
Speaker 1: graduate school, a friend of mine suggested that I joined
Speaker 1: her at a class. And at that point my life
Speaker 1: had changed quite a bit, and I was going through
Speaker 1: a period of depression, and I'm prone to depressions, so
Speaker 1: it was one of many waves. But she was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, comed yoga. You're gonna love it. And
Speaker 1: I really thought of yoga as mean something that thin
Speaker 1: white women do. I didn't really think it had anything
Speaker 1: to do with me. And even when I went to class,
Speaker 1: I was like the fattest person, one of the only
Speaker 1: black people. It was a very alienating experience for me.
Speaker 1: But what I didn't realize until I was actually in
Speaker 1: the room was just how often I tell myself no,
Speaker 1: so like what would happen is that I would be
Speaker 1: And this was also in a Beak from Yoga studio,
Speaker 1: which is a style of hot yoga. And the only
Speaker 1: reason that I really bring it up now is that
Speaker 1: in Beak from Yoga Studios they have mirrors. This is
Speaker 1: not common I think in general with yoga, but um
Speaker 1: in this particular style they use mirrors. And so I'm
Speaker 1: looking at myself in the mirror, and I'm just judging
Speaker 1: myself so harshly I was saying. I'd be like, like,
Speaker 1: you have no business being here. Everybody around you can
Speaker 1: see that. The teacher knows you shouldn't be here. And
Speaker 1: I'd be looking at everybody else practicing the postures like
Speaker 1: they can do it, they know how to do it.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do it, so I shouldn't
Speaker 1: even be here, And like I would get to a
Speaker 1: place of like not even trying the postures. Like I
Speaker 1: would see the teachers start the posture and I'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that. And after a certain point,
Speaker 1: I thought, so are you gonna spend the whole ninety
Speaker 1: minutes doing this or like I mean, because you paid
Speaker 1: to get here, so you could do this for ninety minutes,
Speaker 1: or you could just try. Maybe you fall down. Maybe
Speaker 1: the teacher sees that you fell down, and they're like,
Speaker 1: she doesn't know anything. Maybe all the other students see
Speaker 1: you and they're like, she doesn't know anything. Even knowing
Speaker 1: all of that, maybe you could still just try. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't even how much about having that experience on
Speaker 1: my yoga mat. It was really noticing all the other
Speaker 1: parts of my life where I do that, where I
Speaker 1: say like I'm not even gonna try. Why why I
Speaker 1: try to do that thing? I can't do that thing?
Speaker 1: And yoga really became a place where I was able
Speaker 1: to practice jumping over barriers or giving myself the permission
Speaker 1: to run into a wall, and to see what happens
Speaker 1: when I actually look at myself in a really honest
Speaker 1: and authentic way and allow all of my truth to
Speaker 1: be there, the parts that I don't like especially and um, honestly,
Speaker 1: that is why I still continue to retreat to my
Speaker 1: yoga practice, is that it is the practice ground for
Speaker 1: me to find stability and strength in my life. But
Speaker 1: I definitely did not understand it, like I'm talking about
Speaker 1: this like like esoteric lee now but I did not
Speaker 1: understand it that way at the time. At the time,
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't hate this. It makes my
Speaker 1: body feel good. I'll keep doing it. And honestly, that
Speaker 1: kept that pushed me through like five years of practice,
Speaker 1: was just being like, I'm just gonna keep doing this
Speaker 1: because it makes me feel good. So that's where I
Speaker 1: started for sure. Wow, I have so much to say.
Speaker 1: A side note, my first time ever doing hot yoga
Speaker 1: was several years ago and a friend of mine who
Speaker 1: was very fit, was like, oh, come do hot yoga,
Speaker 1: and so I was like, Oh, I don't know what
Speaker 1: that is, but sure when I arrived, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I thought she meant hot, Like, oh, it's so hot
Speaker 1: right now. She meant no. I I said like, oh,
Speaker 1: I gotta get sup it out of my car and
Speaker 1: I left. No, that's oh my god. I totally identified
Speaker 1: my very first yoga class. It was hot yoga, and
Speaker 1: the room is heated to like hundred and five degrees.
Speaker 1: It's like outrageously hot, and I was sweating from places
Speaker 1: that I truly did not know the human being swept from,
Speaker 1: Like I was sweating from the tops of my fingers
Speaker 1: and inside my eyebrows, and I made it like a
Speaker 1: third of the way through the class before I was like,
Speaker 1: I cannot be in here, like this is why these
Speaker 1: people don't know me. And they told me at the
Speaker 1: beginning of class, don't walk out once you've already entered
Speaker 1: the room. But I was like, these people don't know me.
Speaker 1: I have got to get out of here. This is
Speaker 1: crazy talk. And I left the room and I immediately
Speaker 1: felt amazing because there was air conditioning. But then when
Speaker 1: I went back into the room, I learned why you
Speaker 1: should not walk out of yoga, walk out of a
Speaker 1: hot yoga room like that, because the temperature change in
Speaker 1: your body is so extreme that it can have all
Speaker 1: kinds of negative effects, and for me, it was nausea
Speaker 1: and I eventually just walked out and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm never coming back here. It was seven years before
Speaker 1: I went back and tried it again, so I feel
Speaker 1: like that's really common that people will try yoga and
Speaker 1: they're like, this is the worst. Somebody told me I
Speaker 1: was gonna come and feel calm, and all I feel
Speaker 1: is terrible. And all I can say is that I
Speaker 1: feel you, and the calm is a multifaceted concept, but yes,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I mean it kind of it reminds
Speaker 1: me of what you were saying about how the experience
Speaker 1: of doing yoga really kind of freed you up to
Speaker 1: really see yourself, to fail to hit walls, to you
Speaker 1: know fully, kind of embrace a kind of humanity to yourself.
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, I love yoga, but
Speaker 1: it took it was a while to get there. And
Speaker 1: I think that there's this misconception that you're gonna do
Speaker 1: it and that like you know, it's gonna like a
Speaker 1: white light is gonna feel the room and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're gonna be at peace and and
Speaker 1: and calm. Yoga can be sucking hard, and you can
Speaker 1: really feel things physically, emotionally, mentally that really challenge you.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of part of the practice. It's not
Speaker 1: a magic bullet that automatically makes you feel zan or calm,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's often sold that way exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really like a synthesis. It's a synthesis
Speaker 1: of an idea that while I definitely understand it, it
Speaker 1: also leaves so much the imagination and it leads out
Speaker 1: a lot. So like when you're saying you feel calm
Speaker 1: m at the end of yoga. This is like I
Speaker 1: felt so calm at the end of my practice today.
Speaker 1: What I felt was that my body had been stretched
Speaker 1: to a place where my mind could relax and I
Speaker 1: could be present. And in order to do that, there
Speaker 1: is an agitation of the body that's necessary, and it
Speaker 1: just kind of depends how much agitation you want and
Speaker 1: need some people. For some of us, one posture is sufficient.
Speaker 1: That is more than enough. And really, like I talked
Speaker 1: about this a little bit in my second book, Yoke
Speaker 1: My Yoga of Self Acceptance, But you really only need
Speaker 1: like one posture to practice yoga, and it's whatever posture
Speaker 1: you're in currently, because all parts of life are yoga ultimately.
Speaker 1: But if you are wanting to really like give your
Speaker 1: body a stretch and also sit in meditation for a
Speaker 1: long period of time, it's helpful to do a variety
Speaker 1: of postures that will allow you to arrive in a
Speaker 1: place where you're a little bit more calm. But what
Speaker 1: that looks like is can be very difficult at times,
Speaker 1: and the difficulty is happening on purpose because life is difficult.
Speaker 1: Every part of this life is so hard, and I
Speaker 1: think that we get conditioned to expect for things to
Speaker 1: be easy, and we look for things to be happy
Speaker 1: and good, and so whenever things are challenging or difficult
Speaker 1: or hard or bad, we say, that's not how things
Speaker 1: should be. Things should be I should be happy all
Speaker 1: the time, but nobody's happy all the time. You have
Speaker 1: to experience the darkness in order to even appreciate the light.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That is so true, And honestly, I think
Speaker 1: it comes up in my own love hate sometimes relationship
Speaker 1: with yoga, but also I guess fitness more broadly. You know,
Speaker 1: I love yoga. I do it. I start, I start.
Speaker 1: Every good day, I start with yoga. If I'm able
Speaker 1: to get on the map, you know, that's a good day.
Speaker 1: But I also and most of my yoga happens by myself.
Speaker 1: Sometimes with your videos, I have to say, but I
Speaker 1: do it mostly in my apartment. And I think part
Speaker 1: of that is that for me, the experience of getting
Speaker 1: into yoga with also the experience of things like cultural
Speaker 1: appropriation or like whiteness and thinness really being shoved down
Speaker 1: my throat. Has this been some Has your work been
Speaker 1: a response to that? You know, I don't know about
Speaker 1: a response, but it's certainly existing within all of that.
Speaker 1: And frankly, when I first started practicing yoga, I never
Speaker 1: allowed myself to be present to the spirituality of yoga.
Speaker 1: I've focused entirely on the physicality the postures because I
Speaker 1: was like, first of all, is this cultural appropriation? Because
Speaker 1: I am not South Asian, but I'm practicing something that
Speaker 1: is deeply embedded in South Asian culture and heritage, and
Speaker 1: I know that, and I'm also learning it from white
Speaker 1: people who have colonized as their jobs. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: should I even be doing this? Like it made me
Speaker 1: keep the practice at a distance. But what I came
Speaker 1: to realize, and something that I think is um a
Speaker 1: little loophole in yoga, is that ultimately, if you are
Speaker 1: really living your yoga, if you're really practicing and looking
Speaker 1: within yourself, yoga will always lead you back to your
Speaker 1: own culture. It will always lead you back to whatever
Speaker 1: lives inside of you. And I think that that is
Speaker 1: something that is really hard to understand within the parameters
Speaker 1: of white supremacy, because so much of white supremacy is
Speaker 1: about bringing us It's it's all about like neutralizing individual
Speaker 1: cultures and holding the idea of whiteness on a pedestal,
Speaker 1: and so that doesn't leave a lot of nuance for
Speaker 1: us to accept our own individual cultural identities. And I
Speaker 1: think what it also encourages is white people to avoid
Speaker 1: doing the work of looking at their own uh wounds,
Speaker 1: internal wounds, and instead to try to appropriate or to
Speaker 1: where the mask of someone else's cultural identity. So I
Speaker 1: think that my work has really and it's not even
Speaker 1: like I say, my work, but it's really just like
Speaker 1: my yoga, my yoga is to accept my role in
Speaker 1: all of that. How do I personally uphold white supremacy
Speaker 1: through my own internalized racism? How do I engage in
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation? How can I understand what appreciation is? And
Speaker 1: then on the topic of appreciation, how can I appreciate
Speaker 1: the heritage of yoga and how it exists in South
Speaker 1: Asia and also appreciate my own culture and show reverence
Speaker 1: to my own ancestry and legacy. So, yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's yeah, I don't I don't know if
Speaker 1: that answers your question, but it's not. It's certainly something
Speaker 1: that's on my mind. For sure. It sounds like what
Speaker 1: you're saying is it's a practice it's a it's a
Speaker 1: it's a joy. It's like a lifelong journey, and that
Speaker 1: is part and parcel of the work. Yes, that's exactly right,
Speaker 1: That is exactly a hundred and that there's no landing point.
Speaker 1: There's always that if you're still here, still alive, there's
Speaker 1: still something to learn, and that that's really what I'm
Speaker 1: opening myself up to. And what I hope that anyone
Speaker 1: who would ever learn about yoga in here or around me,
Speaker 1: I hope that that is what they would get, is
Speaker 1: that as long as you're still in the fight, you're
Speaker 1: doing it right. Let's get quick break at her back.
Speaker 1: So you probably know Rosa Parks from her work during
Speaker 1: the Civil Rights movement, But did you know that Rosa
Speaker 1: Parks was also an avid yogi. Dr Stephanie Evans, author
Speaker 1: of the book Black Women in the Ivory Tower, studies
Speaker 1: what she calls historical wellness, or how elder Black women
Speaker 1: wrote and thought about self care. For Rosa Parks, yoga
Speaker 1: was a family affair. Evans wrote that Rosa Parks learned
Speaker 1: about the power of daily morning stretches from her own
Speaker 1: mother and would practice yoga with her nieces and Dr
Speaker 1: Evans says that this focus on taking care of herself
Speaker 1: was actually a part of Rosa Parks's expression of activism.
Speaker 1: What ms Parks teaches us is that self care is
Speaker 1: a part of resistance. She lived at the age of
Speaker 1: ninety two because she began to center her own health needs,
Speaker 1: she explained, and while we may remember Rosa Parks as
Speaker 1: being defiant and poised, images of her on her yoga
Speaker 1: mat all smiles in bow pose are my very favorite
Speaker 1: as a black woman. I am very much into my
Speaker 1: you know, black woman aunties and ancestors and the ways
Speaker 1: of which that they kind of set up a legacy
Speaker 1: of social change and social justice. I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: kind of like walking in the truth of my ancestors,
Speaker 1: and as much as I hold reverence for them, that
Speaker 1: feeling can sometimes lead to me sort of like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, herofying them in a way where they're not
Speaker 1: really real people. And there's this I mean, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: you know, And there's this image that I came across
Speaker 1: several years ago of Rosa Parks doing yoga and I
Speaker 1: haven't framed on my desk because we think of Rosa
Speaker 1: Parks as this like, you know, I think that like,
Speaker 1: it's so easy to think of her as his picture
Speaker 1: in a history book or a picture a picture on
Speaker 1: like a Black history poster, and the images of are
Speaker 1: smiling and doing yoga, And in fact, she really enjoyed
Speaker 1: doing yoga a lot. She was like a like a
Speaker 1: she had a practice, and I do think about that
Speaker 1: picture just reminds me of the way that yoga and
Speaker 1: all of these other little ways that we experienced physical
Speaker 1: joy and physical fullness can be a way of tapping
Speaker 1: back into my specific cultural heritage um in a way
Speaker 1: that allows me to be a bit more loving. I
Speaker 1: guess yes. And I would even take it a step
Speaker 1: further that when you think about the legacy of Rosa
Speaker 1: Parks and think about the work that she did, the
Speaker 1: amount of spiritual fortitude that was necessary, the strength and
Speaker 1: the ability to see beyond the present moment but also
Speaker 1: to be in the present moment, those are all things
Speaker 1: that are that come through restorative healing practices like yoga.
Speaker 1: And it's I love so grateful for the legacy of
Speaker 1: people like her who literally were like, Okay, cool. So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna change history casually, but the way I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do it is by practicing yoga like these, so that
Speaker 1: when we look at social justice works specifically and we
Speaker 1: say like, like, if we're all being present to the
Speaker 1: ways that we contribute to our communities and that we're
Speaker 1: all activists ultimately, then coming from that place to heal
Speaker 1: yourself and to work on to to put your own
Speaker 1: healing journey first is the first step of activism and
Speaker 1: of social justice. That like, there's nothing without that ultimately,
Speaker 1: that if you're not taking care of yourself, there's no
Speaker 1: way that you can take care of anyone else. All
Speaker 1: of the horrible things in our society, whether it's capitalism,
Speaker 1: whether it's white supremacy, those forces want us to be
Speaker 1: burnt out. They need us to be completely drained and
Speaker 1: feeling like we're pouring from an empty cup all the time,
Speaker 1: and that one way that we can reclaim is to experience,
Speaker 1: you know, that that spiritual and physical fullness or you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it is that makes us feel more whole. Like
Speaker 1: that's the way that we can sort of quietly reclaim
Speaker 1: that and and push against all those destructive forces. That's
Speaker 1: exactly right, That is why it is so the first
Speaker 1: thing that they come for is our spirits. It's the
Speaker 1: first thing and and our breath being connected to that
Speaker 1: that whenever we reconnect to our breath, it is the
Speaker 1: greatest sign of strength and power and an inability to
Speaker 1: ever be silenced. And I think that it's so important
Speaker 1: as things become more chaotic, more tribal, more violent, it's
Speaker 1: really important for us as a society to remember that
Speaker 1: to take care of yourself is the first line of defense.
Speaker 1: I love that that's such a good reminder at a time.
Speaker 1: I think, frankly, we could all use it always, every
Speaker 1: single day because there's always something new. That's the other
Speaker 1: thing about now is that it's such a reminder that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, nothing is forever, and that the present moment
Speaker 1: is paramount. And I think it will only get harder
Speaker 1: to remember that, and so it's helpful to have the
Speaker 1: tools in place. Yeah, I that is a word, you know.
Speaker 1: The last few years and it felt like everything is
Speaker 1: on fire and awful, and just the reminders to breathe,
Speaker 1: reminders to be present, Reminders that you know, my own
Speaker 1: personal vibe takes the shape of like escape. So it's
Speaker 1: like if I can drink too much or other ways
Speaker 1: to like unplug an escape. But ultimately I know what
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do is like avoid having to feel
Speaker 1: what it feels like to be in my body and
Speaker 1: be present, and like, you know, I don't know, like
Speaker 1: as bad as things have been the last few years,
Speaker 1: I'm grateful that I've that I've been able to lead
Speaker 1: into the opportunities to reconnect with my my presence and
Speaker 1: my breath and my body and all of that totally
Speaker 1: literally same. And you know, I think that there is
Speaker 1: some there's so many lessons to learn and escapism that
Speaker 1: I feel like are really helpful and impossible to learn otherwise.
Speaker 1: But there is always this line of like what is
Speaker 1: it like to just try to experience your own torment
Speaker 1: and to really like just let the bad ship be
Speaker 1: there just like it's like, yeah, it smells bad in here,
Speaker 1: that's because there's trash. It's okay, it's no big deal.
Speaker 1: And like I feel like every every stroke of yoga
Speaker 1: that I practiced prior to was practiced for and beyond
Speaker 1: because I feel like literally every time that I come
Speaker 1: to my map, that I come to my breath work practice,
Speaker 1: especially in what I think of as the yoga of
Speaker 1: everyday life, the yoga where the yoga of not cutting
Speaker 1: someone off in traffic, the yoga of not like wanting
Speaker 1: to bust a cap in somebody's ask because they said
Speaker 1: the wrong thing at the wrong time, like all of that.
Speaker 1: Those moments are the moments where I'm like, Wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I'm glad that I'm breathing. I'm glad
Speaker 1: that I could just practice like inhaling and exhaling and
Speaker 1: really just try to receive another human being. That is
Speaker 1: so much I think of. There's so much that comes
Speaker 1: from not accepting ourselves, and one of the biggest things
Speaker 1: is that it means that you can't accept anybody else.
Speaker 1: And so to me to be able to like just
Speaker 1: take every challenging moment as an opportunity to just receive
Speaker 1: another person and just hear where they're coming from and
Speaker 1: not try to make it about me and what I
Speaker 1: think and what I deserve, and just be like, you're
Speaker 1: another human being, what are you saying? Not even like
Speaker 1: I need to do anything with what they're saying, not
Speaker 1: like I need to agree or like it, but just
Speaker 1: can I receive? And that, I think is like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it helps. It helps. It's so funny to
Speaker 1: hear you say this because from watching your videos, I
Speaker 1: always think like, oh, just a man. It is such
Speaker 1: a a then centered person probably never cuts people off
Speaker 1: in traffic, and you're like, oh, that's part of the practice.
Speaker 1: I am a very volatible person. And I definitely you know,
Speaker 1: I thought before, like, what is the difference between me
Speaker 1: now and me before I practice yoga? And I think
Speaker 1: that before I started practicing yoga, I was a little
Speaker 1: bit mad all the time, like a little bit unsettled
Speaker 1: all the time. And even now, it's not that the
Speaker 1: anger is not still there. And certainly I mentioned depression before,
Speaker 1: but like I absolutely still experienced depression, waves of depression.
Speaker 1: M It's not that it's not there. It's not that
Speaker 1: the bad ship isn't present. It's that I'm okay with it,
Speaker 1: or I have the opportunity to be okay with it.
Speaker 1: I don't have to judge myself for being uh complicated.
Speaker 1: I don't have to judge myself for being mean or
Speaker 1: for being problematic, Like I can just be all of
Speaker 1: those things. And I think that, Um, it is a
Speaker 1: day by day journey, and some days I wake up
Speaker 1: feeling it and some other days I do not. And
Speaker 1: the most important thing for me, I think always is
Speaker 1: to just like not try to cover it up, like
Speaker 1: toxic positivity, I think is the biggest issue, like anytime
Speaker 1: saying that, like you know, I'm just talking to think
Speaker 1: about that, I'm gonna focus entirely on the happy things,
Speaker 1: like no, it's got to be at least for me,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm a double cancer. So this is really
Speaker 1: this may be specific like water signship, but like I
Speaker 1: feel like if I don't experience every emotion fully, I
Speaker 1: won't get over it. I will It'll just fester underneath, underground,
Speaker 1: and it might not be today, it might be years
Speaker 1: in the future, but it will come out, and it'll
Speaker 1: be worse than if I just set it straight up
Speaker 1: from the beginning. I identify so hard. I could talk
Speaker 1: all day, but I will just say I agree, and
Speaker 1: I see you more. After a quick break, let's get
Speaker 1: right back into it. Jessamine's work is grounded in body
Speaker 1: positivity at a time when the term can be so
Speaker 1: watered down and co opted to the point where the
Speaker 1: very idea of body positivity can almost lose its meeting.
Speaker 1: One of the things I really was excited to talk
Speaker 1: to you about is the idea of the body positivity movement,
Speaker 1: and I love that so much of what you do
Speaker 1: is grounded in making space for bodies. But my question is,
Speaker 1: do you ever feel like both body positivity and sort
Speaker 1: of wellness like quote wellness have been kind of co
Speaker 1: modified to the point where whatever radical meaning might have
Speaker 1: been in there, we sort of I don't know, it
Speaker 1: just seems like it's so easily kind of turned into
Speaker 1: a happy slogan and the reality of what what that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff looks like it's kind of lost. Oh yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that happens with all movements low key,
Speaker 1: that whenever it becomes whenever a movement is like popularized
Speaker 1: or becomes when it starts trending, the impact of it
Speaker 1: gradually degrades. And I think specifically with body positivity, which
Speaker 1: I think a body positivity is really being like an
Speaker 1: offshoot of body of fat, fat positivity and fat acceptance
Speaker 1: and fat acceptance as a movement deeply radical did not
Speaker 1: start yesterday. A percent has been like in the sixties
Speaker 1: and seventies like there. I mean, that's and that's me
Speaker 1: really just being kind of vague in general, but it
Speaker 1: has existed for quite some time. And body positivity, I
Speaker 1: think from fat positivity has always been seen as like
Speaker 1: kind of a bullshit movement, low key, like I think
Speaker 1: that people in the fat acceptance movement fat positivity have
Speaker 1: always been critical of body positivity because it is more general,
Speaker 1: and I thought a body positivity is being like basically saying,
Speaker 1: you're okay today, exactly as you are. You don't need
Speaker 1: to change anything about yourself. Your body is exactly as
Speaker 1: it needs to be. And when you accept your body,
Speaker 1: then you can do anything that you want, which is
Speaker 1: a really cool message. And it's not actually about body size,
Speaker 1: which a lot of body positivity has become about. The
Speaker 1: message is not what I just said, and it becomes
Speaker 1: like fat girls deserve the same clothes as thin girls
Speaker 1: or something along those lines. And so it's not and
Speaker 1: it's not noting the extent to which black, black uh creators,
Speaker 1: in particular black fat creators have been really instrumental in
Speaker 1: the body positivity movement being what it is now like
Speaker 1: it excludes all of that. And I think that because
Speaker 1: of that, maybe bastardization is taking a step too far,
Speaker 1: but also maybe not because of that. Certainly, simplification of
Speaker 1: the message body positivity has been co opted by a
Speaker 1: lot of people that I think that their intentions are good,
Speaker 1: but what ends up happening is that the message just
Speaker 1: becomes water down, it becomes deluded. And so now, in
Speaker 1: response to body positivity, even just the idea of being
Speaker 1: positive about your body, like a lot of people push
Speaker 1: back on that and they're like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: feel positive about my body all the time. And so
Speaker 1: from that, body neutrality has um has sprung up. And
Speaker 1: the idea with body neutrality is that you can be
Speaker 1: neutral about your body that like, you don't have to
Speaker 1: feel any kind of way about it. It just exists
Speaker 1: and then you go from there. And my feeling about
Speaker 1: that is that body neutrality is it's not really possible
Speaker 1: because we're not neutral. Our bodies are not neutral. We're
Speaker 1: political beings. Our bodies are radicalized from birth, and so
Speaker 1: to say that you're neutral towards your body is to
Speaker 1: really like lose responsibility for what it means for your
Speaker 1: body to show up in this world. But you know,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, this is this is
Speaker 1: maybe a niche clueless reference, but at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, the more the merrier, I'm just like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I feel like it doesn't really matter what you bring.
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter how you get to the party,
Speaker 1: as long as you get there. I'm like, we have
Speaker 1: to get to a place whereas a people, we stop
Speaker 1: worrying about our body, we stop talking about our bodies
Speaker 1: so much, because right now we live in an age
Speaker 1: where like, if someone's nose doesn't look the way that
Speaker 1: they think it should, then it's like their life is
Speaker 1: over and they shouldn't exist. So, like, we can get
Speaker 1: to a place where everybody knows that your body is
Speaker 1: the way that it is on purpose, you are the
Speaker 1: way that you are on purpose, You're not a mistake.
Speaker 1: Then I think from that place we can start to
Speaker 1: heal some of the deeper systemic wounds that exists in
Speaker 1: our society, Like there's no healing of systemic racism without
Speaker 1: first accepting that your body is okay. So it's I
Speaker 1: don't think that there's anything wrong with the movements, frankly, like,
Speaker 1: I think that the delustion ultimately leads to more people
Speaker 1: having a conversation about their bodies, and it leads to
Speaker 1: greater change. But I do think that it's important for
Speaker 1: us to be aware of the fact that a movement
Speaker 1: or a title can't be the fullness of your identity,
Speaker 1: so that like, if the movement is gone, where do
Speaker 1: your values lie now? Where do they lie? Then? Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: That's such a good point, in such a good way
Speaker 1: to put it. And I think you're you're so right,
Speaker 1: Like it's so the idea that you could just exist neutrally,
Speaker 1: especially for black folks, especially for black women. It's just
Speaker 1: like it's just like it's not gonna happen. Like I
Speaker 1: have been going through some stuff recently, like I just
Speaker 1: became an aunt for the first time, and I thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm an auntie to a beautiful baby girl. And when
Speaker 1: she was born I kind of had to do a
Speaker 1: lot of inner work to realize I had a lot
Speaker 1: of fear and anxiety around what I remember from being
Speaker 1: a black girl in the South, and all of the
Speaker 1: negativity and hang ups and the way that like even
Speaker 1: people in my family, people who loved me, just felt
Speaker 1: like love for them was about it could only kind
Speaker 1: of exist as a criticism, right, like my hair wasn't right,
Speaker 1: my way it wasn't right, this wasn't right, my clothes
Speaker 1: would weren't right, my short everything, and the idea of
Speaker 1: my niece being born into the world, knowing that she
Speaker 1: might get that same stuff hung on her that I
Speaker 1: spent a lifetime working to unlearn. Like that was really
Speaker 1: hard for me. And I think, like I wish we
Speaker 1: could get to a place where when a little black
Speaker 1: girl is born, you're not thinking about all the ways
Speaker 1: that society is going to be so hard on her
Speaker 1: and and critique her and politicize her and judge her
Speaker 1: and sexualize her and all of these different things. I
Speaker 1: wish that was a place that we would get to,
Speaker 1: But I don't think we're there. Yeah, I think we're
Speaker 1: not quite there, But I do think that every step
Speaker 1: is a step in the right direction. And I feel
Speaker 1: like it's so important for us to individually be doing
Speaker 1: the work exact actually as you have described, like acknowledging
Speaker 1: those parts of yourself, seeing the ways that you're like
Speaker 1: continuing the cycle, and just being like as gentle and
Speaker 1: accepting about it as possible that I feel like is
Speaker 1: all anybody could ever ask. Like there's nothing else to
Speaker 1: be done. And that's because even as we evolve as
Speaker 1: a society, and even like if we heal everything that
Speaker 1: are at all of the wounds that our ancestors created.
Speaker 1: We're just gonna make new wounds because that's what life
Speaker 1: is about. Like, it's just about having those experiences. But
Speaker 1: it's so beautiful to notice what you're talking about into
Speaker 1: just take that step forward to do something different being
Speaker 1: that queer and black. On the Internet, I mean, the
Speaker 1: people will have a lot of opinions about your body,
Speaker 1: your clothing, your diet, it and really your existence overall.
Speaker 1: Something that I've really noticed a lot is that, both
Speaker 1: on the Internet and in real life, I think that
Speaker 1: people feel very entitled to have opinions on bigger black bodies.
Speaker 1: And it's it's always these assumptions like, oh, that person
Speaker 1: can't do yoga, that person can't be healthy, that person,
Speaker 1: you know, shouldn't be eating that or wearing that. And
Speaker 1: I wonder like, like, like where do you think that
Speaker 1: comes from? Like, like why do you think that when
Speaker 1: people see a bigger black body, For a lot of folks,
Speaker 1: their first like knee jerk reaction is to criticize them
Speaker 1: or to make an assumption about who they are from
Speaker 1: a screen that's gonna be a picture of a stranger.
Speaker 1: I think there is so much hatred of black people
Speaker 1: in general that I think that's a huge piece of
Speaker 1: that specific thing. I think that when it comes to
Speaker 1: that black bodies that I think that fatness is uh
Speaker 1: really demigrated in every society and in all cultures. And
Speaker 1: I think especially in the black community, black people shading
Speaker 1: other black people, that fat blackness is not accepted. And
Speaker 1: I think that there's this desire often to colonize and
Speaker 1: to have an opinion about ship that really is none
Speaker 1: of your business at all. And I think that people,
Speaker 1: I think it's so normalized, and because of the medical
Speaker 1: industrial complex and all of the research around what obesity
Speaker 1: is and these health statistics, people think that they're literally
Speaker 1: like doing you a favor to say like that's not healthy,
Speaker 1: or like that person is doing a bad thing, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And really, I think it just points to deep insecurity
Speaker 1: in the self and the feeling that like maybe by
Speaker 1: controlling other people you can control yourself. And it's just really,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't even really know what he has
Speaker 1: to say about it. It's just I think it's something
Speaker 1: the human beings do to feel better about ourselves on
Speaker 1: an individual level, and it never works out that way
Speaker 1: because it always just makes you sadder. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: just really named one of my like one of my
Speaker 1: biggest pet peeves, the concerned trolls, and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to help them out. I'm trying to give
Speaker 1: them some device. I'm trying to like, No, you're not.
Speaker 1: You're literally being hateful. You're really you really don't care
Speaker 1: about this person. If you did, you probably wouldn't be
Speaker 1: leaving hateful comments, Like exactly, I hate it so much.
Speaker 1: It's such a pet peeve of mine. Yeah, I really
Speaker 1: feel like it just makes me sad whenever people, for
Speaker 1: whatever reason want to lean into the negative, because it
Speaker 1: means that they are really sad. Like anytime that I
Speaker 1: see trolling in general, I just think, like, damn, that
Speaker 1: person is really sad. Because if you're happy, or if
Speaker 1: you are if you're feeling happy, you want for other
Speaker 1: people to feel happy. But if you're feeling sad, you
Speaker 1: want for other people to feel sad. And I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot that we can do on an individual
Speaker 1: level and then on a collective level to be manifesting
Speaker 1: compassion for ourselves individually so that when we come up
Speaker 1: against that or see people like really just going in
Speaker 1: I mean, people get violent with their words because they
Speaker 1: are feeling so sad and desperate, and to respond to
Speaker 1: that desperation with hope and with love and with compassion
Speaker 1: is a triumph. It's the It is the opposite of war.
Speaker 1: So I feel like I agree with you. I feel
Speaker 1: the same way. Back in January, Jessamine was on the
Speaker 1: cover of the fitness magazine Self. She looked absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1: But when Donald Trump Jr. Posted that cover on its
Speaker 1: Instagram with the caption what are your thoughts? Well, I
Speaker 1: don't think I have to tell you that the comments
Speaker 1: were not nice and he knew exactly what he was doing,
Speaker 1: setting his six million followers up to knock Jessimine down.
Speaker 1: Only it kind of didn't work. I know that for
Speaker 1: you fucking Donald Trump Junior. And he did the thing
Speaker 1: that I like. It burns me up because at least
Speaker 1: haters can be like, I'm a hateful person. Here's a
Speaker 1: hateful comment. The thing that really gets me is when
Speaker 1: someone on the Internet posts a picture and then they'll
Speaker 1: just be like mm so that's question mark. And I
Speaker 1: see it all the time, and I'm like, Okay, first
Speaker 1: of all, if you're gonna like you know what, you
Speaker 1: know what you're doing, you know what you're trying to say,
Speaker 1: why don't you at least just fucking say it. But
Speaker 1: like the thing of like throwing a stone and hiding
Speaker 1: your hands, I cannot stand it. I see it all
Speaker 1: the time. I hate it. No, it's totally small dick bullshit.
Speaker 1: And I mean, like, honestly, I'm just like I feel you.
Speaker 1: I mean, like when he said he was talking shit
Speaker 1: or or encouraging other people to talk shit, I really
Speaker 1: don't know because I wasn't that much attention because it
Speaker 1: has happened so much, and I'm just like whatever. But
Speaker 1: I feel like, frankly, first of all, any time that
Speaker 1: a white man is talking ship about my body, I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: so you love it. That's part of the issues that
Speaker 1: you love it and you feel like you can't say that,
Speaker 1: So okay, heard got it talk about something that I
Speaker 1: learned from my ancestors. But I'm like, okay, I got you.
Speaker 1: But then also I'm like, oh, and then there's also
Speaker 1: a piece of me that's like thanks for the free publicity.
Speaker 1: Sounds great. Um, I don't really have an issue with that,
Speaker 1: but I'm also like, damn, this really pushed you, Like,
Speaker 1: this really provoked you. It made you think it made you,
Speaker 1: like like it made him, it made anyone anyone who
Speaker 1: has that like, that's strong of a negative reaction. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you just got pushed. You got pushed, and maybe you
Speaker 1: got pushed to the to the next level. Maybe you
Speaker 1: got pushed to think about things in a different way,
Speaker 1: to see the world in a more expensive way. And
Speaker 1: that's where I feel like the onus is on me
Speaker 1: or on whoever is receiving the trolling to say, like,
Speaker 1: who am I in this circumstance? What do I stand for?
Speaker 1: Do I believe in myself? Do I think that I
Speaker 1: deserve to exist? And if that's the case, if I
Speaker 1: think I deserve to exist, when everybody else deserves to exist,
Speaker 1: everybody else deserves to have their opinion and post about
Speaker 1: it on Instagram and ask for feedback from other people.
Speaker 1: Everybody has that right, and what I can do is
Speaker 1: just try to find ways to enjoy it and to
Speaker 1: not be held back by it. Jessamine is continuing to
Speaker 1: build community on the Internet to grapple with those very
Speaker 1: same questions. Her new digital wellness app is called the
Speaker 1: Underbelly or Anyone can explore wellness and yoga in a
Speaker 1: way that affirms who they are and however they're showing up.
Speaker 1: So tell us about your new app, the Underbelly. How
Speaker 1: are you using it to have a different conversation about
Speaker 1: our bodies and wellness that are may be different than
Speaker 1: some of the other spaces that we've seen. Totally, I
Speaker 1: think that wellness has been defined very one dimensionally. It's
Speaker 1: become about what you look like and whether or not
Speaker 1: you fit in and what ever the wellness practice is
Speaker 1: going to do for your body or like what other
Speaker 1: people will think about it. And the underbelly is really
Speaker 1: about acceptance and about accepting yourself exactly as you are
Speaker 1: accepting your messy house. Your kid that you is practicing
Speaker 1: yoga on the map with you, maybe your dog is
Speaker 1: practicing on the map with you. Maybe you don't have
Speaker 1: a yoga map. Maybe you fart compulsively, Maybe you do
Speaker 1: all kinds of things that people have told you that
Speaker 1: you should feel bad about. And the underbelly is the
Speaker 1: space where you don't have to feel bad about it.
Speaker 1: You don't have to feel bad, you don't have to
Speaker 1: explain yourself. There's no explanation needed. It is wellness without requirement.
Speaker 1: And I think that for me That is what I
Speaker 1: when I first started posting my yoga practice on social media.
Speaker 1: The community of the Underbelly is what I was looking for.
Speaker 1: I was looking for a place where it was okay
Speaker 1: to be different and too to be unapologetically so, and
Speaker 1: that more than anything, more than yoga, specifically more than meditation,
Speaker 1: which we do offer this, I mean the Underbelly. You
Speaker 1: can practice yoga with me that you can go to
Speaker 1: the underbelly dot com and try a free trial right
Speaker 1: now if you like. But you can do practice yoga
Speaker 1: with me. Practice meditation, for sure, that's there. But really
Speaker 1: the space is there for you to just be yourself
Speaker 1: and not have to make any explanations for your identity.
Speaker 1: So I was this way before I started doing yoga.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are people listening who are rolling
Speaker 1: their eyes saying, okay whatever, as if fitness or yoga
Speaker 1: or any of this mambo jumbo is going to help
Speaker 1: my life. What do you say to someone like that?
Speaker 1: Can you give someone who is a nonbeliever here is
Speaker 1: an easy, quick way to just try out these practices
Speaker 1: in your own life that might make a difference. First
Speaker 1: of all, I totally feel you. Your critique is legitimate.
Speaker 1: If you're like, um, that sounds like bullshit, I feel
Speaker 1: you you're a real one. But the thing about it is,
Speaker 1: you can start practicing yoga right now with literally we
Speaker 1: can do it right now together. If you just close
Speaker 1: your eyes and take a deep inhale and take a
Speaker 1: deep exhale. This is all. This is yoga, literally just
Speaker 1: linking together. And so if you take that a step further,
Speaker 1: I would not go out and buy a yoga mat.
Speaker 1: You don't need to like go get books or go
Speaker 1: get like a special outfit. Literally, if you have access
Speaker 1: to the internet, just go to YouTube, look up the
Speaker 1: very first free yoga class that you can find, and
Speaker 1: just give it a try, and if you don't vibe
Speaker 1: with the teacher, cut it off. Try another one. There are,
Speaker 1: literally there are so many free yoga resources on YouTube
Speaker 1: right now, and you just start and maybe, let's say,
Speaker 1: cut the class you don't want to try it for
Speaker 1: yoga class, I feel you just try one posture. Maybe
Speaker 1: the posture is mountain post. Mountain posts can be practiced
Speaker 1: seated or standing. Maybe the pose is child's post, which
Speaker 1: is essentially like it's literally like laying like a child
Speaker 1: on the ground. Maybe it's corpse pose where you lie
Speaker 1: on your back, which truly I think is the hardest
Speaker 1: posture of yoga, any of those postures. You just start
Speaker 1: with that one posture, and then if you want to
Speaker 1: do more, you do more. Maybe you get down on
Speaker 1: the ground into corpse pose, and then you want to
Speaker 1: try out cat cow pose, and before you know what,
Speaker 1: you're practicing vinyasa's and down dogs and all that. But also,
Speaker 1: that one posture is more than enough, and you don't
Speaker 1: even actually need to change your body from how it
Speaker 1: is right now. You could practice it the breathwork, the
Speaker 1: connection to the chronic life force that connects all of us,
Speaker 1: that can happen from wherever you are right now, and
Speaker 1: if you vibe with it, that's great. But also, yoga
Speaker 1: is a very broad category, and there are yoga components
Speaker 1: in all forms of physical movement. So if you maybe
Speaker 1: yoga postures are not the thing for you, like finding
Speaker 1: some kind of wellness practice that reminds you to tune
Speaker 1: back into yourself and to listen to your own breath.
Speaker 1: That's really the point of all of it. That is beautiful, Jessamine.
Speaker 1: Where can folks keep up with all of your amazing
Speaker 1: work totally. You can find me on social media at
Speaker 1: my name is Jessamine on most platforms, I think on Twitter,
Speaker 1: I'm at Jessamine's stand Um that you can find my
Speaker 1: name is Jessamine everywhere, and you can find The Underbelly
Speaker 1: at the Underbelly Yoga. You can find my podcast at
Speaker 1: Dear Jessamin, and you can get links to everything, including
Speaker 1: my books and my organization, We Go High. You can
Speaker 1: find all of that at Jessamine's Stanley dot com fabulous.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that I did not ask that you
Speaker 1: want to make sure get concluded? Oh my goodness. The
Speaker 1: only thing that I would add, which is what I
Speaker 1: always say, is just thank you so much. Thank you
Speaker 1: for having me, and thank you so much to everyone
Speaker 1: who was listening, and thank you for being you. You
Speaker 1: were made this way on purpose. You are a creature
Speaker 1: of light, and who you are matters, and what you
Speaker 1: bring to this world is imperative. So thank you for
Speaker 1: being you. If you're looking for ways to support the show,
Speaker 1: check out our March store at tangodi dot com. Flash Store.
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
Speaker 1: just want to say hi. You can reach us at
Speaker 1: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Toad.
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss Creative edited
Speaker 1: by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry
Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amata was
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Tod. If you
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