Speaker 1: This is how men think with broths Light and Gavin
Speaker 1: to grab and I heard radio podcast. Okay, so we
Speaker 1: are going to intro our guest for today's discussion. And Amy,
Speaker 1: you are sitting there just gloating at because I feel
Speaker 1: it's perfect timing with Valentine's Day coming, with Valentine's coming
Speaker 1: in the head. No, but I will. I will say this.
Speaker 1: I'm not planning on it any by any means, but
Speaker 1: if I ever get divorced, it's gonna be before Valentine's
Speaker 1: Day because I hate Valentine's Dmitri just totally like, explain
Speaker 1: what we're doing. So we're talking about we're talking about Valentine.
Speaker 1: Way to steal the punchline, dude, So I will steal.
Speaker 1: I got So that is? That is Amy wanted to
Speaker 1: play some sick joke, could do a divorce conversation prior
Speaker 1: to Valentine's Day, but it turns out there's an actual
Speaker 1: real connection at this time of year for that. Um. So, Amy,
Speaker 1: do you want to introduce our steamed guests. We're very
Speaker 1: lucky to have her here we are today, So and Laura,
Speaker 1: Laura Wasser is here. And so when I introduced Laura
Speaker 1: to you, guys, I said, she is literally and I
Speaker 1: stand by this. Probably the most well known and prolific
Speaker 1: is that the right word divorce attorney in the country, dubious.
Speaker 1: So I know when I wrote notes, I said, your
Speaker 1: name is synonymous with divorce. How does that feel? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's uh, it feels great. You know when you think
Speaker 1: of a divorce and misery, you think Laura Wasser. People
Speaker 1: are gonna say, I'm getting a Wasser getting a Walker.
Speaker 1: Uh No, I My My whole jam is just trying
Speaker 1: to educate people about not only divorce, but about marriage
Speaker 1: and relationships and how with better communication and compassion, we
Speaker 1: can handle ourselves better in all relationships, but certainly if
Speaker 1: we're getting divorce, and particularly if we're getting divorced from
Speaker 1: someone with whom we have kids and are going to
Speaker 1: have to co parent. Okay, So I'll give you guys
Speaker 1: a little background for our listeners on Laura. So she's
Speaker 1: an attorney, she's an author, entrepreneur, and a family law expert.
Speaker 1: She's represented a huge list of celebrities Kim Kardashi and
Speaker 1: Bron Reynolds and affairs Jimmy Levine, Maria Shriver down the row. Um,
Speaker 1: But She maintains that divorce is the great equalizer in
Speaker 1: that it terrifies everybody, everybody. So she's made it her
Speaker 1: mission to change us by creating It's Over Easy, which
Speaker 1: gives divorcing couples an accessible and affordable resource to dissolve
Speaker 1: their marriage in all fifty states. You're an author of
Speaker 1: New York best Time seller like high five to that.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I wish I could write that under my name.
Speaker 1: I just want to write Brooks like New York Best
Speaker 1: Brooks like mediocre podcast. You're a mediocre podcast manager. Want
Speaker 1: to make a I want to make a quick note.
Speaker 1: It's Jimmy Iovine, but I have I have a friend
Speaker 1: at school, his buddy of mine, and his kids are
Speaker 1: in his Jimmy Levine, so I don't want him to listen,
Speaker 1: and people think he's getting um So anyway, one of
Speaker 1: the most qualified people in this state. And Amy, why
Speaker 1: does this, why does this conversation for you have never
Speaker 1: been married? Why does this excite you so much? Well,
Speaker 1: it doesn't excite me, like Christmas. But here's what. You
Speaker 1: have to take your coat off because you said you're
Speaker 1: just getting sweaty. Because I think relationships fascinate me, and
Speaker 1: I think that look, fifty of marriages do not work.
Speaker 1: So I think if we start talking about divorce, we
Speaker 1: may make it easier for people that are going through it,
Speaker 1: and we also could prevent it. I think Laura has
Speaker 1: a lot of great input. We just had an amazing
Speaker 1: conversation for the last half an hour getting ready for
Speaker 1: the show about it's not about the divorce, it's about
Speaker 1: the relationship. I'll let Laura speak on that, but I
Speaker 1: would love to ask you do you think marriage works.
Speaker 1: I think marriage works for some people. I think if
Speaker 1: you are a couple that has found your soul mate
Speaker 1: or found even if it's not your soul mate, but
Speaker 1: it's your groove, your best friend, somebody who want to
Speaker 1: be with God bless I mean, I'm not I don't
Speaker 1: want people to get divorced. But I also think, realistically speaking,
Speaker 1: in there are people who have been married for a
Speaker 1: certain period of time and for whatever reason, have grown apart.
Speaker 1: Things have separated them in some way, and I think
Speaker 1: it's healthier for individuals and kids to see too happy
Speaker 1: parents that may not be living under the same roof
Speaker 1: than miserable people. But being able to say but we've
Speaker 1: been married for fifty years. So I think if it's
Speaker 1: not working and we can't figure out a way to
Speaker 1: make it work, I want it to be easier for people,
Speaker 1: at least financially and um legally to split up. Then
Speaker 1: I think they can really focus on the heart and
Speaker 1: the mind and emotionally doing things in a kind of
Speaker 1: a mindful, cost effective way. I've given that advice to
Speaker 1: one of my best friends in the world. He has
Speaker 1: four kids, um, eight, seven, six, and five. This is
Speaker 1: when I gave him this advice. But he isn't me
Speaker 1: is it given us the phone number? Um, But him
Speaker 1: and his wife were not happy. They were individually and
Speaker 1: as a partnership just not happy and it just didn't
Speaker 1: seem And I told him, I was like, buddy, give
Speaker 1: yourself a chance at happiness. Like, and also, these kids
Speaker 1: are smart. Kids will figure out that that they know
Speaker 1: that there's an energetic disconnect between mom and dad. Like
Speaker 1: they're already eight years old. They're figuring this stuff out already. UM.
Speaker 1: So I've given him that advice, like, I think it's
Speaker 1: best for you as my friend, for you and for
Speaker 1: her to separate and move into a different chapter of happiness.
Speaker 1: Totally and again helping people figure out a how to
Speaker 1: get to that next chapter and then how to thrive
Speaker 1: in that next chapter. I'm sure we've all known somebody
Speaker 1: who's been through a divorce and they're just still so
Speaker 1: angry ten years later. Women particularly, just they have that
Speaker 1: angry face. There's no botox that can fix it. They're
Speaker 1: just still so pissed about their ex. I also want
Speaker 1: people to be able to move into their next chapter.
Speaker 1: You know some of you know some of those who
Speaker 1: but you know, to move into that next chapter in
Speaker 1: a healthy way. Because I also know a huge number
Speaker 1: of very happily divorced people, like they seem to be
Speaker 1: the happiest group of all the people. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: you asked me if I've been married. I was married
Speaker 1: for like ten seconds in Okay, when I was a baby.
Speaker 1: We didn't have kids, but I have two boys with
Speaker 1: two different dads, neither to whom I was married. But
Speaker 1: you know, talk about happy divorced or happy separated. We
Speaker 1: all had Thanksgiving together a couple of months ago. Everybody
Speaker 1: was there, my kids, their dad's, my current boyfriend, his
Speaker 1: ex wife was like, how the hell did I end
Speaker 1: up here? But it was left a party. This is Thanksgiving,
Speaker 1: this is our thanks It sounds like you just showed
Speaker 1: up to the same restaurant by accident that my mom
Speaker 1: and actually I lost my mom over the summer, which
Speaker 1: and she always had Thanksgiving at her house in Malbou
Speaker 1: and she always had everyone there, even though she's married
Speaker 1: to my stepdad for like fifteen years. My dad was
Speaker 1: there with his wife. Like we were always very inclusive
Speaker 1: in our family. So that's how I learned. And so
Speaker 1: when we would have Thanksgiving, it my mom's all of
Speaker 1: the baby daddies and everyone would come. So this year
Speaker 1: I had to do it at my house, and so
Speaker 1: we had it at my house and we had all
Speaker 1: of the people there, and look, you know, sometimes is
Speaker 1: it trying to have these relationships and smile and maybe
Speaker 1: fake it till you make it? Yes, however one it was.
Speaker 1: It was a sad, kind of melancholy Thanksgiving for me
Speaker 1: and these family members that the fathers of my kids
Speaker 1: were there for me and we're like, we love you.
Speaker 1: This is our family. We all miss Bunny. But to
Speaker 1: all of our kids, my boyfriends included, we're so happy
Speaker 1: that their parents were one place. I don't know how
Speaker 1: many of you are children of divorce, but having that
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving were like halfway through. You gotta get everything bundled
Speaker 1: up and go to other person's house so that you
Speaker 1: can have dessert with that family. That's a pain and
Speaker 1: that does not make you thankful. So everybody was there.
Speaker 1: We did it for the kids. I say to people
Speaker 1: all the time, you gotta love your kids more than
Speaker 1: you hate your ex. What a great behind. I have
Speaker 1: that tattoo on my own. That's so weird. I have
Speaker 1: that tattoo from you because I'm forty five almost I
Speaker 1: guess I am forty six? Are you actually pretty sick?
Speaker 1: Like the same? We thought we were the same age.
Speaker 1: She was like, we're the same age, right, and I
Speaker 1: was like, no, we're not. I'm older. You're just trying
Speaker 1: to dial it back. One like it back, go back
Speaker 1: to I'm she whispers, It's like you're there. I have
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who are quote what I call
Speaker 1: sticking it out like it's not great. They are not miserable.
Speaker 1: There's no drama, like, there's not constant fighting. It's just
Speaker 1: sort of dead in the water. What is your advice
Speaker 1: to those people who have been married ten twelve fifteen
Speaker 1: years should be two years? Do Should people stick it out?
Speaker 1: How do you know when divorce is probably the better
Speaker 1: option or it's time to like pull the trigger and
Speaker 1: and move on. I don't know. I mean I literally,
Speaker 1: unless you are being you know, abused, or you're with
Speaker 1: somebody who has a serious drug and alcohol problem and
Speaker 1: they can't no matter how much rehab, they can't get better.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, one thing is, and I
Speaker 1: don't think we all readily admit this marriage is sticking
Speaker 1: it out. I mean that's part of it. And if
Speaker 1: it's not his ship, it's gonna be somebody else's ship.
Speaker 1: So it's not always just like after the butterflies go
Speaker 1: away and you know the balloom is off the roads,
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm out that is That is a very
Speaker 1: Hollywood way of thinking. I want the newer, better deal.
Speaker 1: And I've seen that a lot of times men and
Speaker 1: women who come in and I'm like, wait, that looks
Speaker 1: just like your X, but like fifteen years younger. That's weird. Um.
Speaker 1: So I think that's part of it. Sticking it out
Speaker 1: has to do. Maybe you don't stick it out, maybe
Speaker 1: you figure out how to grow and evolve with this person.
Speaker 1: Rather than just cutting and running. I think that's it
Speaker 1: right there. I think you need to continually evolve. You're
Speaker 1: going to change. I'm going to change in the course
Speaker 1: of my life. My wife is going to change in
Speaker 1: the course of her life. But also I think people
Speaker 1: over time can develop some sort of indifference when there
Speaker 1: once there was an attraction. They can just develop an indifference,
Speaker 1: and it's not staying connected enough to continue to learn
Speaker 1: and grow and accept your changes except their changes, and
Speaker 1: also challenge each other. There's so many resources out there, seminars, um,
Speaker 1: all kinds of things, books, all kinds of things. There's
Speaker 1: areas in your relationship you can undoubtedly grow, and maybe
Speaker 1: there's just an indifference in people where they don't want
Speaker 1: to put in the energy to do it, or they
Speaker 1: don't think they can. I don't think a lot of
Speaker 1: people in their marriage really really truthfully communicate all the
Speaker 1: needs and desires and savings and yearnings they have for themselves,
Speaker 1: for their partner, all of it. I think there's they
Speaker 1: lack a little bit of courage there to share those
Speaker 1: things that could really actually keep people together and like
Speaker 1: light their marriage on floor and it's work. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like we all go to the gym because we
Speaker 1: want to stay healthy, we want to stay tone. You
Speaker 1: want to say, you may have to do that, whether
Speaker 1: it's therapy, but mentioned you want sneakers over, your sneakers
Speaker 1: haven't arrived. I love what Brooks is talking about because
Speaker 1: I think a lot of couples in Laura, you probably
Speaker 1: know this because people have to tell you all their tales,
Speaker 1: is that they really let their connection go when they
Speaker 1: let their intimacy go. Because we know tons of couples
Speaker 1: that haven't had sex in a year, and it's like,
Speaker 1: if you have that, one of the things is like
Speaker 1: you got to get that back because that is connection,
Speaker 1: and then the marriage can improve, as opposed to saying
Speaker 1: like it's dead. Let's just that's true. But but there's
Speaker 1: also people. There's something also to be said about growing apart,
Speaker 1: and there's also something to be said about I think
Speaker 1: sometimes people when they get into a marriage, um, they
Speaker 1: probably you know, sacrifice certain things and maybe change who
Speaker 1: they are a little bit. And then as they get
Speaker 1: older they say, you know what, I wasn't that person,
Speaker 1: but I was being that person. So I think it's
Speaker 1: not always about reading books and like everything can be
Speaker 1: saved well again, but you could go to your partner
Speaker 1: and say, listen, these are some of the things I
Speaker 1: really was super passionate about when we got married and
Speaker 1: I let them go by the wayside for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: we had to move to a different state, we had kids.
Speaker 1: Whatever is he or she has to be willing to
Speaker 1: go I I hear you. I like that. Let's work
Speaker 1: on those things too. I mean you have to have
Speaker 1: somebody on the other end going, yeah, I'm willing to
Speaker 1: explore those things with you. You can't do it alone.
Speaker 1: It takes two to tango. So if you are willing
Speaker 1: to put in it, it's the hardest job you'll do.
Speaker 1: They say being a parent, Being a parent and being married.
Speaker 1: That's like you know, and you do. You really have
Speaker 1: to focus on it. And if you're doing it, but
Speaker 1: the other a person isn't getting married was to improve
Speaker 1: your life? What the purpose was? I mean, I'm not married,
Speaker 1: so I thought the whole purpose of getting married was
Speaker 1: the partnership of essentially improving each other's lives. So so
Speaker 1: if you're telling me that the two hardest things you're
Speaker 1: ever gonna do are having kids and maintaining a marriage,
Speaker 1: doesn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of what
Speaker 1: the marriage is supposed to be, which is to improve
Speaker 1: each other's lives. What about what about doesn't come easy?
Speaker 1: What about your career? Your career? Your career is like
Speaker 1: I got to maintain I there's things it's it's not
Speaker 1: just my career is an absolute joy. Yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 1: there's there's grindwork in there, there's things that you probably
Speaker 1: don't like. I'm happy to do all of it. And
Speaker 1: in a marriage it's the same thing. Man have the
Speaker 1: same Barely ever do I think to myself, oh, I
Speaker 1: have to with my career. It almost never happens. So
Speaker 1: it's the same. So people feel that way about in marriage,
Speaker 1: I have to, Oh I have to change diaper, But
Speaker 1: then you have a clean baby and you're so psyched.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just really what it is. It's the
Speaker 1: parenthood is a better analogy to be like, it's the
Speaker 1: hardest thing you'll do, but it's also the most rewarding.
Speaker 1: And we could say the same thing about having a marriage.
Speaker 1: To tell me about the joy of the diaper, there's
Speaker 1: no joy of the diaper. There's no joy of the
Speaker 1: diaper till the diaper is gone and the new diaper
Speaker 1: is man, I was what a joy kick this diaper
Speaker 1: and see what kin out of it? Kevin, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's question that you brought up a while back,
Speaker 1: was like, what point do you then decide let's get
Speaker 1: divorced after you've gone through the therapy? Maybe it's five
Speaker 1: therapists or whatever that maybe you know, like right, and again,
Speaker 1: people come to see me all the time, and I
Speaker 1: will never be the one to tell them that it's time.
Speaker 1: But when they come to me and say it's time,
Speaker 1: then what I try to make sure that they are
Speaker 1: doing is educating, getting their education of what this is
Speaker 1: going to look like, what other people have gone through,
Speaker 1: getting a support system for yourself. So many people come
Speaker 1: to me and they have no idea even what the
Speaker 1: law is in this state. So right, sofa bed to
Speaker 1: put in the apartment they're heading into, Jennifer convertibles. What
Speaker 1: Laura thinks of nesting? Do you wait, what is that?
Speaker 1: So nesting is? I mean it's people have been doing
Speaker 1: it for a long time, but it's really become kind
Speaker 1: of a trend in family law. It's when the kids
Speaker 1: stay in the family residence and the parents kind of
Speaker 1: shift out for customs. Okay, So I think it's great
Speaker 1: if it works for the family, and I think it's
Speaker 1: great for a short time. I don't think it usually
Speaker 1: works forever. Although I read a story about a Canadian
Speaker 1: couple actually that has been doing it for like seven
Speaker 1: or eight years. They actually built like two apartments onto
Speaker 1: either side of the house and they just rotate out
Speaker 1: and go into these apartments. Yeah, Canada people, But but
Speaker 1: I think it's really good, particularly during the process and
Speaker 1: maybe for like the first you know, six to twelve
Speaker 1: months after, because it's good for the kids and they
Speaker 1: don't have to keep moving and packing and going. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think if the people can get along and
Speaker 1: have somewhere else to go either they rent one apartment
Speaker 1: that they both go to on their off time. But
Speaker 1: you have to be super super considerate there too, because
Speaker 1: like if you show off, show up on your off
Speaker 1: day and there's like used condoms, that's not like you can't.
Speaker 1: There has to be some kind of right, not good
Speaker 1: or you yes, because they're still available to you. M
Speaker 1: here's a questions. That is what my entire gess, that's
Speaker 1: my point of the podcast is do not use condoms.
Speaker 1: Laura wasser Um here's a question for serious question. Here's
Speaker 1: a question for you in the praternity route, I really hustle. Um,
Speaker 1: So you make your living in the space of of
Speaker 1: dealing with divorce. Has that in any way crept into
Speaker 1: your life bled over into your personal life where you
Speaker 1: feel cynical or negative or anything about the connotation of
Speaker 1: marriage or are you able to compartmentalize compart mental compartmentalized,
Speaker 1: but departmental compartmentalized. This is what I do for a living,
Speaker 1: and I still have my beliefs and I believe in
Speaker 1: marriage here, or this is what I do for a
Speaker 1: living and I really don't believe in the sacrament of marriage.
Speaker 1: I am a great compartmentalizer. I believe in marriage for
Speaker 1: some people. It's not for me, Like, there's no reason
Speaker 1: for me to get married. I'm in a very committed,
Speaker 1: wonderful relationship right now. I'm not super down with the
Speaker 1: State of California being able to say what happens to
Speaker 1: my money or who I would owe money to if
Speaker 1: we ever split up. But you could do could I
Speaker 1: could do a prenup. I just you know, I don't
Speaker 1: need it for me and for my significant other. That's
Speaker 1: not something that we need, but I love a good wedding.
Speaker 1: I believe in marriage. I think it's important for people. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't believe you have to get married to have kids, obviously,
Speaker 1: like people say, oh, well, I wouldn't ever want to
Speaker 1: have kids if I wasn't. That's not for me. But again,
Speaker 1: one thing you get good at in my job is
Speaker 1: not judging. I don't judge other people because everybody has
Speaker 1: their ship, everybody has stuff. You never quite know what's
Speaker 1: in somebody's past or what's going on behind closed doors.
Speaker 1: So you try to listen and you try to problem
Speaker 1: solve question because you've seen so many different versions of
Speaker 1: failed relationships. The second year in a relationship with someone,
Speaker 1: and you see any similar stories happening in your relationship,
Speaker 1: do you assume it's headed towards the direction of the
Speaker 1: stories you've already seen and pandard No, No, I really don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I'm fifty one years old, I've been
Speaker 1: in relationships for a long time. As you said, I've
Speaker 1: seen a lot of relationships. I think everything that comes
Speaker 1: my way personally and professionally is new. I also think
Speaker 1: there's only a certain amount of things that can go wrong.
Speaker 1: I mean I've now heard I thought pretty much everything.
Speaker 1: And you can see red flags in any relationship or
Speaker 1: any marriage. But like I said, if I'm watching somebody
Speaker 1: else's play out, I never know exactly what's going on.
Speaker 1: They don't say, well, like I won't be able to
Speaker 1: pick you up at at yoga because such and such,
Speaker 1: and you're thinking Mark versus Tina. No, I'm about three.
Speaker 1: It's over now, you know what I haven't. I have
Speaker 1: enough of my own relationship history that I could just go, Josh,
Speaker 1: good for you, Laura. I like you. We're gonna get,
Speaker 1: We're gonna have hold on, We'll get. We gotta take
Speaker 1: a quick break and then we're gonna dive more into
Speaker 1: Laura's story after. This is kind of a fun topic here. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're back from break and the timeliest podcast we've ever done.
Speaker 1: A happy vale Haymy just wants to ruin everybody's Valentize
Speaker 1: Day here with the divorce podcast prior to Valentized Day.
Speaker 1: But Amy, you had a real exciting question. You wanted
Speaker 1: to listen to Laura's podcast. So Laura has a podcast
Speaker 1: right now she'll tell us about and then she's coming
Speaker 1: to my heart. Yeah, welcome and it'll be very similar
Speaker 1: to her podcast now, but just broader and better. So
Speaker 1: I learned this on your show that set and I
Speaker 1: might be getting the stat slightly off, but it's all
Speaker 1: whatever semantics of divorces are filed by women, and I
Speaker 1: thought that it was a very interesting conversation that you
Speaker 1: can tell us about. But you sort of tied it
Speaker 1: to women are the ones who have this emotional can
Speaker 1: action and when they finally just cannot take it anymore,
Speaker 1: they will file, whereas men are have a little bit
Speaker 1: of an easier time sort of just rolling with it,
Speaker 1: and they maybe they golf or they go out with
Speaker 1: their buddies and they aren't so sort of distraught over
Speaker 1: the emotional breakdown of the relationship. Yeah, I mean one
Speaker 1: of the things that I do and we talk about
Speaker 1: on Divorce Sucks, which is the current podcast. It will
Speaker 1: become All's Fair, same feed, um, But on my heart,
Speaker 1: All's Fair was just a little broader and had more
Speaker 1: to do with all different kinds of relationships. But we
Speaker 1: talk about a lot the difference between men and women,
Speaker 1: and people always assume that I represent more women. I
Speaker 1: actually represent more men. You just I guess hear about
Speaker 1: more of the women. But so many men will come
Speaker 1: to me and they'll have their divorce papers that their
Speaker 1: wife filed and serve them with and they'll be like,
Speaker 1: I thought everything was fine, I mean what happened? Like
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it wasn't great. When was the last
Speaker 1: time you had sex with her? Yes? With her? You know,
Speaker 1: and or like they just you know. I think men
Speaker 1: and against this also is goes in line with men
Speaker 1: that are working men. Okay, so I don't always represent
Speaker 1: men or women, but I almost always represent the breadwinner,
Speaker 1: the working person. The breadwinner is often the one that's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's not perfect, but it's good and
Speaker 1: I love him or her and it's working. It's sometimes
Speaker 1: the person that may not have as much going on
Speaker 1: during the day that's going I'm not happy, and I
Speaker 1: want to think about why I'm not happy and how
Speaker 1: I could be happy and what would happen. And again,
Speaker 1: no judgment. It happens that a lot of times women
Speaker 1: are the ones to file because they are kind of
Speaker 1: the organizer in the relationship and so there now we're
Speaker 1: going to get divorced. I have had women not only
Speaker 1: file but help their husband find their attorney and then
Speaker 1: help their husband find and furnish their entire new home
Speaker 1: or apartment, because that's that's what they do. Out. I
Speaker 1: want to move on, and once I get you set up,
Speaker 1: I can do that. Yes, Amy, I have a question
Speaker 1: for you, because when you asked this question, it made
Speaker 1: me think of a question. You said that, and maybe
Speaker 1: it's statistically is true women are the ones that file
Speaker 1: for divorces are filed by women. I thought about how
Speaker 1: so I'm thinking about how you exit a relationship. Is
Speaker 1: it also the same as how you enter a relationship?
Speaker 1: So that maybe maybe and I'm not trying to generalize
Speaker 1: or paint women with a broad stroke here, but do
Speaker 1: women enter a relationship for a deeper emotional connection than men?
Speaker 1: Men maybe enter for a different purpose. And then that's
Speaker 1: also why when that falls out, the women chooses to exit.
Speaker 1: That lands very well on me. I would say that's
Speaker 1: a thousand percent accurate that women are kind of the
Speaker 1: drivers of both the inn and the out because of
Speaker 1: because the emotion plays such an important part for women
Speaker 1: in my opinion, and and the definition defining it saying
Speaker 1: like okay, so wait, are we are we monogamous? Are
Speaker 1: we this? And we're this? And have to define it
Speaker 1: in a way that makes more sense. And I think
Speaker 1: the connection is so for women, and people can email
Speaker 1: us and call us and tell us, but for women
Speaker 1: the connection is emotional. The emotion, the sex, all of
Speaker 1: it creates the relationship and the connection. So as it
Speaker 1: starts to dissipate, they are seeing the relationship fall apart.
Speaker 1: Whereas men, I do think, have an easier time as
Speaker 1: the relationship is very secondary to them. I have my golf,
Speaker 1: I have my job, I have my kids, I have
Speaker 1: my life. And yeah, you're you're okay, Yeah, why do
Speaker 1: you think that is? Why is that different? Sound like?
Speaker 1: Is that really I've never been out with a golfer before.
Speaker 1: They's the only date water polo players, but I've switched
Speaker 1: it to golf because you're a cap of Okay, let
Speaker 1: me get your guys. This question or not a question,
Speaker 1: but a comment about that. I feel like girls and
Speaker 1: women in general, when all of their friends are getting married,
Speaker 1: they will then rush into there's like a social pressure
Speaker 1: jump into relationship just to get married or we've definitely
Speaker 1: I disagree with that. Oh, I think it's a thousand
Speaker 1: percent true. I think it's like a I disagree with it.
Speaker 1: I don't know anybody in my head that's going, oh
Speaker 1: my god. And maybe I just don't know, but like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, everybody's getting married. I need to find
Speaker 1: somebody and just Dmitri, what do you think. I think
Speaker 1: they're currently dating somebody and they're like, let's get married.
Speaker 1: I think I don't get that. Oh my god, Brooks.
Speaker 1: I have many friends that panic married. They were like
Speaker 1: late twenties early because every one of their friends we
Speaker 1: were Rick and I have all the same friends. They
Speaker 1: all did it, and they married like a giant toolbag
Speaker 1: because they were so desperate to get married. Because in
Speaker 1: our society, you feel like a giant failure if you
Speaker 1: aren't married and don't have kids. That wad say, that's
Speaker 1: a very good point. It totally works on the A.
Speaker 1: We see a trend among friends and then you see
Speaker 1: the whole domino toppling of these of these groups of friends.
Speaker 1: And I've seen that here in l A. I've talked
Speaker 1: to people in New York. One of the reasons when
Speaker 1: we created It's over Easy, which is this online website
Speaker 1: where you can get divorced for dollars much less than
Speaker 1: what I would charge you at my office. But the
Speaker 1: main point of it was to also have a community.
Speaker 1: So you join that community. There's a whole bunch of contents.
Speaker 1: You can read about it, reach out to other people,
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts about it, have you know, group chat
Speaker 1: so that you don't have to then convince your friends
Speaker 1: that you're having dinner with tomorrow night. To get divorced.
Speaker 1: You can talk to somebody across the country that's getting divorce,
Speaker 1: you know. And and also a ton of resources so
Speaker 1: that you can either find mental health, find childcare, find
Speaker 1: insurance if it's not available through your employer, find dating apps,
Speaker 1: and also find you know, you could see your engagement
Speaker 1: rank online. It's perfect. You're getting divorced. Oh hey, what's
Speaker 1: going on? Do you like? What do you think of
Speaker 1: a mediator? I love mediators. I would say that at
Speaker 1: our firm, probably of our divorces are mediated because it's
Speaker 1: just prohibitively expensive, both financially and emotionally to have a
Speaker 1: trial and to go to court, and our courts are
Speaker 1: so clogged. So find a mediator, which is a neutral
Speaker 1: party that has some experience. We use a lot of
Speaker 1: retired judges. I now do some mediation too, rarely where
Speaker 1: I'm the mediator and I represent and I work with
Speaker 1: both parties to do it because I've been doing this
Speaker 1: long enough and on top don't have to So you
Speaker 1: could and you could both have consulting attorneys. But it
Speaker 1: still makes it easier than you don't have to run
Speaker 1: to court and get like a slamming of the gavel verdict.
Speaker 1: You can have somebody say, you know what, this is
Speaker 1: what will probably happen. How do you feel about this?
Speaker 1: And it's really helpful because the other thing is, especially
Speaker 1: in a divorce, it's like no other kind of lawsuit.
Speaker 1: If you're in a landlord tenant lawsuit or fender bender,
Speaker 1: you want to get the other person. You want to win,
Speaker 1: and you want to smash them whatever. We can't really
Speaker 1: do that in a divorce. You might feel like you
Speaker 1: want to. But one, this is your money. There's a
Speaker 1: pot of your money. It belongs to both of you.
Speaker 1: The more you spend and go out of the pot
Speaker 1: to the lawyers and the forensic accounts and the exports,
Speaker 1: the less you have for you and your kids. But two,
Speaker 1: and most importantly, after the fender bender, you're never gonna
Speaker 1: see that person again. After the divorce, you're gonna see
Speaker 1: the person at the parent teacher conference, You're gonna see
Speaker 1: the person at the birthday party. You got to figure
Speaker 1: out a way get along with them Thanksgiving if you're
Speaker 1: in my family. Yeah, and getting wassard can be expensive,
Speaker 1: So it's probably Do people not get divorced because of
Speaker 1: money where they stay together because they are like cheaper
Speaker 1: to keeper. Having ever heard that, wait to have this
Speaker 1: great joke, what what's what is the Barbie Barbie the
Speaker 1: Barbie dream house. Barbie Dreamhouse comes with all the accessories,
Speaker 1: the dream house and the clothing and the wardrobe and
Speaker 1: the RV. And Ken just comes by himself because she
Speaker 1: took everything, or some joke about that. He certainly does.
Speaker 1: You can doesn't have anything, Gavin, do you feel sort
Speaker 1: of like I do about marriage because we've seen divorce
Speaker 1: and we don't want that, So it's like, why I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not afraid of marriage at all. I'm just
Speaker 1: afraid of divorce. I think that. And it wouldn't it
Speaker 1: wouldn't be so terrifying if divorce wasn't incentivized the reality
Speaker 1: is that divorce has become completely incentivized in Western civilization period,
Speaker 1: and and it's just it's financially bizarre that you would
Speaker 1: reward a failing system. And you think that we reward
Speaker 1: it because she gets half your money doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be she in his case, Well, you know, it's bizarre
Speaker 1: to me that we we would reward failure. In almost
Speaker 1: no other structure do we reward failure. So why would
Speaker 1: you reward failure to Okay, I take issue with two things.
Speaker 1: One I don't necessarily think it's a failure, but let's
Speaker 1: leave that alone. Why who's being rewarded? I'm saying, if
Speaker 1: there's a higher earner and a low earner and the
Speaker 1: relationship doesn't work, Okay, So here's how maybe change your
Speaker 1: way of thinking a little bit. And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: I agree with the law. But the law is when
Speaker 1: you get married, the high earner is earning money from
Speaker 1: community efforts, which means it's already half her money in
Speaker 1: this hypothetical situation. So we're not rewarding her. She already
Speaker 1: owns half of it. I'm not saying taking her half
Speaker 1: and leaving the party. Right. Okay, here's a question. So
Speaker 1: I don't know all about the law here, you do, right,
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at it from this distant, distant window
Speaker 1: right of people that I know who have had divorces
Speaker 1: and it's been very costly. Okay, people who maybe have
Speaker 1: had been married for five years, they had a kid,
Speaker 1: and and the sort of the the the X turns
Speaker 1: into an absolute terror and greedy and absolutely torments the
Speaker 1: the X waiving the power, having the power of waiving
Speaker 1: the kids in front of them, and really weaponizing things
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be weaponized. Right, So have you seen that?
Speaker 1: And That's what I'm talking about. So we're rewarding people
Speaker 1: for walking away from the system that was supposed to
Speaker 1: be helping each other. And you may think I'm wrong
Speaker 1: saying that, but I've seen I've seen that with people
Speaker 1: that I knew, friends of mine, who I felt like
Speaker 1: they were just getting raped over the coals, you know,
Speaker 1: I felt like they got maybe someone took advantage of
Speaker 1: their financial situation. They were, you know, they were lonely,
Speaker 1: essentially working their ass off and providing, you know, essentially
Speaker 1: living a good life and on someone that wanted to
Speaker 1: do that with them and got used for that essentially. Yes,
Speaker 1: and again I will say to people that kind of
Speaker 1: hypothetical that you explain, I'll say you created this monster.
Speaker 1: You took her in, you started providing her with this lifestyle.
Speaker 1: In the situation you described, he'd only be paying spousal
Speaker 1: support for about two and a half years, half the
Speaker 1: length of the marriage. I know it's not nothing, and
Speaker 1: he's likely not paying much more than what he was
Speaker 1: paying for her to have that lifestyle. Anyway, It's just that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it hurts when you're writing a check and it's going away.
Speaker 1: It's different if you're writing a check and it's all
Speaker 1: happening under your same roof. If you're all in Cabo,
Speaker 1: you don't quite mind so much. Then if she's in
Speaker 1: Cabo with your kids and you're paying for it, I
Speaker 1: see more. Do you see more and more women who
Speaker 1: are having to pay spousal support, Yes, spousal and child.
Speaker 1: And again they come in and they're like, what do
Speaker 1: you mean this guy's been sitting on the couch for
Speaker 1: fifteen years. I want this albatross off from around my neck.
Speaker 1: I'm the woman. I shouldn't you know? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: the laws underblind, honey, you And then that's how I
Speaker 1: feel it should be. Totally genderblind. It is, and it
Speaker 1: is much more in California now with regard to custody
Speaker 1: too of kids. I mean people come in and say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm the mom, I should have the kids, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: not so much. The kids have a right to have
Speaker 1: access I think equally, if possible, based on time sharing
Speaker 1: careers in location with both of their parents. I love
Speaker 1: your approach. Just listening to you to I love your
Speaker 1: approach to a very sensitive and tough topic. I have
Speaker 1: two really quick topics before we go. One is, and
Speaker 1: I think we kind of addressed it. Is conscious uncoupling
Speaker 1: much better than unconscious coupling, which sometimes happens like right
Speaker 1: after the separation. Okay, dive into that. Dive into the
Speaker 1: term of consciously. Don't think Chris Martin made it famous,
Speaker 1: but I've interviewed the woman who wrote the book about
Speaker 1: conscious like and yeah, and I think it's actually quite
Speaker 1: um if you really dig into it and read the book.
Speaker 1: It's basically what Laura was talking about, how everyone's at
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving the goal is to make it. I don't know
Speaker 1: you can explain that. I'm sure you have couples that
Speaker 1: attempt it, but it's um. Keeping the relationship good for
Speaker 1: you and that person and children if they're involved, because
Speaker 1: it shouldn't have to be so ugly. But basically it's
Speaker 1: the marriage didn't fail, it worked, and now you're going
Speaker 1: to move on. You're changing how your family functions. You're
Speaker 1: so a family, but you're changing the way you approach
Speaker 1: your familial relationship. It's what you said before, do you
Speaker 1: hate your X more than you love your kids? I
Speaker 1: would hope not, So there's no reason to not try
Speaker 1: and make that situation. I think conscious uncoupling is what
Speaker 1: I try to do now in all relationships, not just marriage,
Speaker 1: because it's like, why should it be so ugly when
Speaker 1: maybe it was beautiful? And then like, for a variety
Speaker 1: of reasons, some beyond my control, it doesn't work out.
Speaker 1: Everybody it's like this is but I really, I mean
Speaker 1: if you, if I say to people all the time
Speaker 1: you're going through this, think about something that you really
Speaker 1: used to love about this person. He was in the
Speaker 1: delivery room with you, holding your hand while you were
Speaker 1: pushing out those babies. And there has to be something
Speaker 1: that got you into this relationship, made you fall in love.
Speaker 1: Tap into that. Because the other thing is if you're
Speaker 1: so consciously hating on your ex and you have kids,
Speaker 1: that same energy you were talking about before books that's
Speaker 1: in the house carries through and your kids go to wait,
Speaker 1: I'm half that guy or gal and he or she
Speaker 1: so hates that guy or gal. How do they feel
Speaker 1: about me? Parents should not bring the children into the
Speaker 1: argument or even have the argument in front of the kids.
Speaker 1: They feel it, they hear it there. What do you say? Kids?
Speaker 1: Turn around? We go outside. We have someone that works
Speaker 1: with us. She's twenty four years old, and her parents
Speaker 1: drag her into all their arguments. Lam. I can't imagine
Speaker 1: what it's like. My parents have been married. Now we
Speaker 1: celebrate their forty five wedding anniversary this past summer. My
Speaker 1: wife's parents are divorced. I can't imagine what it would
Speaker 1: be like as a child to know your parents being
Speaker 1: divorced party divorce. When I was young, I was like
Speaker 1: four when they split up. Um, and I was the
Speaker 1: last of five kids. But I'll say this, times have
Speaker 1: changed in the sense that when I was little, I
Speaker 1: used to think and maybe I've just mat sure. When
Speaker 1: I was little, because of that, my parents did not
Speaker 1: get along for so many years. It was brutal. Um.
Speaker 1: So when I was little, I used to think, that's
Speaker 1: the worst thing that can happen to to a marriage
Speaker 1: is or to to a couple is the divorce. And
Speaker 1: now that I'm older and I see how it affects
Speaker 1: kids and all this type of stuff, and I lived
Speaker 1: through it, I think the worst thing that can happen
Speaker 1: is to have a loveless marriage and and fight and
Speaker 1: and stay together. But so I don't think divorce is
Speaker 1: the worst thing anymore. But I think to be fighting
Speaker 1: like that the way I grew up, it was very difficult.
Speaker 1: Can we quickly touch on the gray divorce? Gavorce is
Speaker 1: also speaking of we're talking about anybody over saying, anyone
Speaker 1: over fifty that gets divorce is the great divorce, and
Speaker 1: it's more and more common, right, and those are now
Speaker 1: the people that I graduated place school with. But the
Speaker 1: great divorce again, it's either people who have empty nesters,
Speaker 1: their kids have grown up and left, or I think
Speaker 1: one of the statistics is second marriages haven't even higher divorce,
Speaker 1: right than like, if you've already been through it once,
Speaker 1: you're like Alan tipper Goore, like they were married for
Speaker 1: like fifty years and they were pretty old, and then
Speaker 1: suddenly they get divorced and you're like why bother. Why why?
Speaker 1: But why why do you ask that question? Because you're saying,
Speaker 1: what their happiness the remaining years of their life doesn't matter. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm stop why I'm bringing it up. I think people
Speaker 1: are living longer and so they're they're more willing to
Speaker 1: get divorced in their sixties than they used to be.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had people come to me. Last year
Speaker 1: in two thousand nineteen, I actually had three divorces where
Speaker 1: the parties were eighty or older. And that's when I
Speaker 1: was truly like, I was like my father and actually
Speaker 1: there is there is there advice here you go. The
Speaker 1: fight was over, the settlement was about who gets to
Speaker 1: keep the medicine cabin and there are there's some laws though.
Speaker 1: If you die when your spouse when you're married, versus
Speaker 1: dying when you're divorced, there's all kinds of tax benefits.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you're weighted out, you know, so, I mean,
Speaker 1: but but yes, it is because people are saying, I
Speaker 1: only have this much time left and I really want
Speaker 1: to be happy. I'm not going to do this for
Speaker 1: one more year. I mean, it is true when humans
Speaker 1: only lived until like thirty, it was a lot easier
Speaker 1: to stay married for your whole life. My grandma did that.
Speaker 1: My grandma got divorced and ended up dating a new
Speaker 1: per person, actually the first person she ever dated in
Speaker 1: high school and was amazingly, amazingly, she was so happy.
Speaker 1: He ended up passing, but she was so happy during
Speaker 1: those years of her life. I have a question. I
Speaker 1: think that's that's really cool. I do love those stories too,
Speaker 1: when when you realize that somebody from your past, but
Speaker 1: that's pretty exciting. I have a question, though, from your observations, Laura,
Speaker 1: is there if you were to give just straight up advice,
Speaker 1: do you think there's an age that's too early to
Speaker 1: get married? Great one. It's hard to say because it
Speaker 1: depends on the people. I mean, I know there's some
Speaker 1: year old out there, um, and then there's some super
Speaker 1: immature for two year olds out there. But how are you,
Speaker 1: Laura somehow April seventeen, She's like, they're usually rock stars. Laura,
Speaker 1: here's a because I I really listening to you talk.
Speaker 1: I really respect and admire your approach to this topic.
Speaker 1: You aren't in it just to like make money and
Speaker 1: get people on their way, like you actually care about
Speaker 1: all parties involved. You look at all scenarios and you
Speaker 1: actually care about people's happiness. So I want to commend
Speaker 1: you for all of that and how you handle yourself
Speaker 1: personally professionally. It's amazing. Now that being said, because I
Speaker 1: gave you that dandy of a compliment, I get to
Speaker 1: ask you this question. What is the ugliest divorce you
Speaker 1: have ever seen? You don't have to name names, but
Speaker 1: what is just ugly to them? Because it was probably
Speaker 1: really nice for you. What is the one where you
Speaker 1: just have a story? This all I did not represent
Speaker 1: either of the course you know what it is. And
Speaker 1: these are these are the ones. There's there's two to
Speaker 1: three that like really hit in my head. They all
Speaker 1: involve child custody. The child custodies are the soul crushers.
Speaker 1: And in all honesty, I would trade my house if
Speaker 1: I didn't have to go through those cases, because you do,
Speaker 1: you get very tight with people and you take on
Speaker 1: a lot of their angst and you see the true
Speaker 1: evil in people when they are fighting about their children.
Speaker 1: And again if there's allegations of abuse or somebody wants
Speaker 1: to move across the country. So you can't just do
Speaker 1: like two days, two days, three days of shared custody
Speaker 1: because they're living a few blocks apart. And it's those
Speaker 1: kind of things where you just it is just it
Speaker 1: it takes so much out of you. And those are
Speaker 1: the ugliest there by far. I mean, there's funny things
Speaker 1: where you know, somebody throws a stiletto healing it actually
Speaker 1: gets stuck in the door. Or this person wanted to
Speaker 1: trade an STD test for a get, which is a
Speaker 1: Jewish divorce. Like I'm like, that's a weird you know
Speaker 1: combo but oka or poisoning of you know, cats so
Speaker 1: that there's like diarrhea all over the white condom in
Speaker 1: him when they gave a cat. That stuff is funny,
Speaker 1: and that's the stuff that I'm like, made that at
Speaker 1: fifty dollars reading that letter. Okay, fine, the kid ones
Speaker 1: are the ones that just are so so sad. And
Speaker 1: that's why I do it the way you said Brooks,
Speaker 1: try to approach it in a way that I really
Speaker 1: want to change the way people look at divorce and
Speaker 1: try to make it better. And I highly recommend Laura's podcast.
Speaker 1: I've obviously never been married or divorced, and I I'm
Speaker 1: addicted to the podcast. I think it's really good relationship
Speaker 1: the podcast is called Divorces, called divorce Sucks, but by
Speaker 1: the time this air is it's going to be called
Speaker 1: All's Fair, like All's fair in love and war. It's
Speaker 1: on my heart. Check us out. I think Amy is
Speaker 1: a bigger fan of divorce and marriage, Like, if you
Speaker 1: could just get divorced, you would do that. I think
Speaker 1: divorce sucks. But I'm I actually I'm not. You know,
Speaker 1: you know what we called it, Gavin a good time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so here, here's what it is. You go in dirty,
Speaker 1: but you come out clean. And it's like it's like
Speaker 1: when a product overtakes an entire category. So instead of
Speaker 1: saying search it, you say, why don't you just google it?
Speaker 1: Or you're like, can I have a Kleenix? Like Kleenix
Speaker 1: is the brand name, it's actually a tissue, you know,
Speaker 1: it could be you could be yeah, just wasper. Just
Speaker 1: get a wasser. Honey, here's the thing. I think we
Speaker 1: need to get divorce. Maybe we can. That will change
Speaker 1: the whole image of it. That could be your leg meant,
Speaker 1: this girl I just got was actually what people just like,
Speaker 1: I've been through two wassers already. I don't think I
Speaker 1: can do it. Hey, I'm dating this girl. She you know,
Speaker 1: she's wassered but she hadn't that kid. But she's great.
Speaker 1: Oh what a dubious honor you are so thank you
Speaker 1: for having to cal where like a couple. We're not
Speaker 1: because she went to golf instead of water polo. I
Speaker 1: love my golfer. He is so great. He's gone for
Speaker 1: eight hours day exactly. Um, that's why we're so happy.
Speaker 1: So where can people get in touch with you? Laura?
Speaker 1: So the the old the podcast now as we record
Speaker 1: this called Divorce Sucks. The new ones called All's Fair
Speaker 1: word anywhere you get your your podcast. But where case people,
Speaker 1: people besides my wife get in touch with you except
Speaker 1: your wife can't get in touch with me. On it's
Speaker 1: over easy dot com. We have our Instagram which is
Speaker 1: at It's over easy and uh Laura Wasser Official is
Speaker 1: another Instagram. And we are also launching a post divorce
Speaker 1: It's called Next Chapter series. Four people that have been
Speaker 1: divorced and they kind of want some tips on how
Speaker 1: to move forward in their lives. So all those fun
Speaker 1: things Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day, So all of you listeners,
Speaker 1: there you go. There's a gift to you from our
Speaker 1: generous producer Ab Sugar shows how I feel about Valentine's
Speaker 1: She's the grin of Valentin, poor boyfriend. But in real
Speaker 1: that was a real discussion Rose dinner. That's what we're
Speaker 1: looking for, Um, that was that was actually a really
Speaker 1: interesting discussion though, like because it is such commonplace. I
Speaker 1: know many people, many people and have it in my family,
Speaker 1: people that are divorced. Um, And I never I never
Speaker 1: looked at it the way you looked at it. I
Speaker 1: do look at it that I want people to live
Speaker 1: happy and fulfilled lives. I want that for every single soul.
Speaker 1: But the way you look at the situation with such
Speaker 1: a sensitivity and a kindness and authenticity and caring for
Speaker 1: the people involved, I just I really commend you, Laura.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I learned a lot here today.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I want to see the still. Thank you
Speaker 1: very much for coming on. We appreciate you. Look her up,
Speaker 1: look up her podcast or new podcast, and I hope
Speaker 1: you just love the I heart team, our producers here, Tory,
Speaker 1: Danielle Amy, everybody involved with our our show East and
Speaker 1: our engineer. Everybody is just amazing. And I hope you
Speaker 1: love the new journey. UM and I'm really happy for you,
Speaker 1: but I hope I'm never on your podcast enough. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much, Thank you guys, Thank you everybody for
Speaker 1: listen until next week. Take care of one another, love
Speaker 1: one another, and we will see you right back here
Speaker 1: for another episode of How Men Think