Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're hitting
Speaker 1: the town in Austin tonight for the iHeart Podcast Awards,
Speaker 1: and by the end of the night, we're going to
Speaker 1: be best friends with Chelsea Handler.
Speaker 2: Just putting it out in the universe.
Speaker 1: It's Monday, March tenth, and on today's show, we'll be
Speaker 1: skipping the need to know and getting straight to the
Speaker 1: meat of our conversation with Alicia Montano, retired, an eight
Speaker 1: hundred meter Olympic bronze medallist and founder of the nonprofit
Speaker 1: and mother now known as For All Mothers.
Speaker 2: She talked about going viral.
Speaker 1: After competing while eight months pregnant, pushing back on the
Speaker 1: idea that women have to earn their right to enter
Speaker 1: motherhood with their accolades, and her decision to break a
Speaker 1: non disclosure agreement to participate in a video op ed
Speaker 1: in The New York Times called Nike told me to
Speaker 1: dream crazy until I wanted a baby.
Speaker 2: Here's a little snippet from that powerful piece.
Speaker 3: Not having any system in place to protect our female athletes,
Speaker 3: it puts our health at risk. Our sponsors know this
Speaker 3: isn't right, which is why they implement confidentiality clauses that
Speaker 3: forbid us from talk about the scale of the problem,
Speaker 3: which prevents us from being able to change it. So
Speaker 3: companies like Nike tell us to dream crazy. We say,
Speaker 3: how about you stop treating our pregnancies like injuries? Then
Speaker 3: they tell us to believe in something, We say, how
Speaker 3: about maternity leave? How about when you tell my daughter
Speaker 3: she can achieve anything, you back it up?
Speaker 2: Wild stuff.
Speaker 1: That conversation's coming up right after this, joining us now.
Speaker 1: She's an Olympic bronze medalist, two time bronze medalist in
Speaker 1: the World Championships, a bronze medalist in the Indoor World Championships,
Speaker 1: and a six time USA Outdoor Track and Field champion,
Speaker 1: all in the eight hundred meters. She's also the author
Speaker 1: of the book Feel Good Fitness, and the founder and
Speaker 1: CEO of and Mother now known as For All Mothers,
Speaker 1: which is committed to breaking down the societal and institutional
Speaker 1: barriers that too often forced women to choose between career,
Speaker 1: competition caregiving. Their mission is to create a world where
Speaker 1: no woman has to choose between being a mother and
Speaker 1: an athlete. She's a mom of three, the runner with
Speaker 1: the flower in her hair. It's Alicia Montano. What's up, Alicia.
Speaker 4: Hey Sarah, thank you so much for having me. Thank
Speaker 4: you for that, thank you for coming on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's so much to get to.
Speaker 1: We've been wanting to have a conversation about moms and
Speaker 1: sports for so long, and you're the perfect person to
Speaker 1: do this. You know, I just listed off your many victories,
Speaker 1: all your top finishes, but perhaps the most well known
Speaker 1: race of your career was not a top finish. It
Speaker 1: came back in twenty fourteen, you competed at the USA
Speaker 1: Outdoor Track and Field Championships, well, eight months pregnant, eight
Speaker 1: months That moment seems to loom even larger now with
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing for moms. Can you take
Speaker 1: me back to that day in twenty fourteen. Why was
Speaker 1: it important for you to race?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So in twenty fourteen, you know, I decided I was
Speaker 3: going to race at our US Track and Field Nationals
Speaker 3: at eight months pregnant, after going through a behind the
Speaker 3: scene sort of battle with the sports industry. You know,
Speaker 3: the status quo was if you became pregnant or wanted
Speaker 3: to have a family, you ultimately were choosing between your
Speaker 3: career and you know, the potential of growing your family.
Speaker 3: And these conversations were ones that were being had but
Speaker 3: weren't in the forefront. And I knew that I needed
Speaker 3: to make the invisible visible because ultimately, what it would
Speaker 3: have meant is when an athlete would walk into with
Speaker 3: their sponsors and have a conversation with their sponsors, into
Speaker 3: their new contracts and say, okay, well, what were to
Speaker 3: happen if I were to become pregnant? Sponsors, brands, corporations
Speaker 3: could easily just say we would just pause your contract
Speaker 3: and stop paying you. And for me, I've won. It's
Speaker 3: a shocker to hear that that was actually happening, and
Speaker 3: I wasn't the first person of that happened to. I recognize,
Speaker 3: you know, change only comes when we can see what
Speaker 3: change looks like. And you know, I'm gonna set my
Speaker 3: best foot forward. I went and connected with another company
Speaker 3: to see how they would treat their female athletes. There
Speaker 3: were two women at the head there and they said,
Speaker 3: you know, when I became pregnant, and I told them.
Speaker 3: They were like, I hope you're not worried about your contract.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I absolutely am, but yea, thank
Speaker 3: you for saying that, And it did empower me to know,
Speaker 3: like you know, I felt a sense of psychological safety
Speaker 3: with even just those words. But it also empowered me
Speaker 3: to know that this conversation had also happened, and that
Speaker 3: I have this opportunity, with being the defending champion, to
Speaker 3: step on this track and show what it looks like
Speaker 3: to be a woman in my career, starting her family
Speaker 3: and wanting to continue it. And so that's what I
Speaker 3: did that day I stepped on that track. I had
Speaker 3: a lane. It was specifically for me, and I wanted
Speaker 3: that lane to not just be mine. I wanted it
Speaker 3: to be a lane that could exist for all mothers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, those visuals of you running with your
Speaker 1: singlet not quite covering your baby bump continued to be
Speaker 1: this very powerful visual and an inspiration for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. But at the time you were also criticis
Speaker 1: can you talk about the folks who didn't think you
Speaker 1: should be running and you tried to make a judgment
Speaker 1: about running while eight months pregnant.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, ignorance exists, and that's something that
Speaker 3: you were going to face in every facet of your life.
Speaker 3: You know, these are probably the same people that would
Speaker 3: not assume or believe that I would also become an Olympian,
Speaker 3: I would become a bronze medallist, I would become a
Speaker 3: multiple time you know, global medalist, American record holder, any
Speaker 3: of those things. And that's for those people. For me,
Speaker 3: it was about standing in my truth. And you know,
Speaker 3: I did what I needed to do. I went ten
Speaker 3: toes down on business and I understood every single facet
Speaker 3: of pregnancy. I walked into my pregnancy with a wealth
Speaker 3: of knowledge and continued to learn about pregnancy. You know,
Speaker 3: how my body would change from a physiological standpoint, and
Speaker 3: how my mind would change. And I took that the
Speaker 3: same way that I approached, you know, performing as an
Speaker 3: Olympic athlete as a high performance endeavor. And in order
Speaker 3: for me to do my best in my pregnancy from
Speaker 3: the background that I have, was to continue to treat
Speaker 3: my body like this incredible vessel that's bringing a life
Speaker 3: into this world. And the greatest thing that I learned
Speaker 3: that a mother can do is to continue to exercise
Speaker 3: in her pregnancy. It's not only good for the mom,
Speaker 3: it's good for the baity. And I love all these
Speaker 3: studies that are out now that are like, you know,
Speaker 3: exactly what I was saying. It was saying, like, you know,
Speaker 3: I continue to be who I am. I can continue
Speaker 3: to be who I am. I just also happened to
Speaker 3: be pregnant. Now there's some caveats to, you know, things
Speaker 3: that you should avoid to help mitigate your risk of injury.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm not going to do a box.
Speaker 3: Jump and then jump back up down from a box
Speaker 3: jump more because I'm going to hurt myself.
Speaker 2: Right right, right, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean you knew that it was and healthy, and
Speaker 1: to your point, the idea of like this isn't stopping
Speaker 1: my career. I will run through it and after it
Speaker 1: And a year later you returned to win the US
Speaker 1: Trials and qualify for the World Championships. And then three
Speaker 1: years later you competed pregnant again. Twenty seventeen US Championships.
Speaker 1: You were five months pregnant. And I'm wondering, when you
Speaker 1: look back on those US Championships now running while pregnant, how.
Speaker 2: Do you view them.
Speaker 1: Do you view them as a personal statement about what
Speaker 1: a mother and a woman can do while pregnant or
Speaker 1: were they also sort of a requirement because you were
Speaker 1: worried about contracts and you were required to raise a
Speaker 1: certain number of times each year, so you felt like
Speaker 1: almost forced to go out there, whether it was by
Speaker 1: choice or not.
Speaker 3: I feel the first I felt that, you know, the
Speaker 3: conversation had been started, you know, in the background, we
Speaker 3: needed to bring it to the forefront. When I ran
Speaker 3: pregnant the first time, the conversation still wasn't at one
Speaker 3: hundred percent of support female athletes when they become mothers,
Speaker 3: and so I recognized, like, I need to step out
Speaker 3: there again. I've showed what it looked like and there
Speaker 3: is more to this conversation that needed to be had.
Speaker 3: So when I after I had my daughter, you know,
Speaker 3: the back in conversation with the two women that were
Speaker 3: in leadership was awesome. They left and then two men
Speaker 3: came and took their place and talked about, you know,
Speaker 3: we want to talk about your contract and your performance
Speaker 3: for over this last year. And I'm like, you mean
Speaker 3: the one where I was pregnant for nine months of it.
Speaker 3: And there is this the clauses within your contracts that
Speaker 3: have you not hit performance metrics, and what I what
Speaker 3: doesn't exist is any words around pregnancy, maternity, postpartum, none
Speaker 3: of that that protects your contract. So ultimately their upper
Speaker 3: hand was what it said in that contract, Well, you
Speaker 3: didn't perform up to the standard that is expected in
Speaker 3: this contract. So what it led me, and this is
Speaker 3: my daughter is, you know, about seven weeks old at
Speaker 3: this time.
Speaker 4: There's no congratulations, nothing like that, like.
Speaker 3: We're the new head, you know, of our athletic management program,
Speaker 3: and this is just what your contract says, and here's
Speaker 3: what we're going to do.
Speaker 4: So I you know that next year I did.
Speaker 3: I went on a tear and I won nationals at
Speaker 3: six and ten months postpartum.
Speaker 4: I won a.
Speaker 3: World Championship gold medal while still breastfeeding my daughter. I
Speaker 3: figured I saw all of these holes in the system
Speaker 3: because I was running through it. I was living, and
Speaker 3: I knew I had to live it in order to
Speaker 3: make it better for everyone else. And at that time,
Speaker 3: you know, when I made those decisions, I was not
Speaker 3: thinking of it as like running through advocacy. I was
Speaker 3: more thinking of it like protecting myself in my career
Speaker 3: and having a vague sort of I want to call
Speaker 3: it like a back end understanding that my responsibility for
Speaker 3: what I do in my podium moments will change the
Speaker 3: landscape for the sport for future generations.
Speaker 2: It was advocacy for self and others at the same.
Speaker 4: Time, exactly exactly, And.
Speaker 3: You know, so I did all that in that first year,
Speaker 3: and I made the World Championship team, and I really
Speaker 3: had and continue to have a great disdain for the
Speaker 3: fact that so many women in their careers feel like
Speaker 3: they have to earn their happiness and they have to
Speaker 3: earn their motherhood with their accolades. And it was no
Speaker 3: different in sport, you know, where I had my daughter.
Speaker 3: I approved all of the things. And when we were
Speaker 3: walking to the next part of my contract and this
Speaker 3: is now going into twenty sixteen, going to twenty seventeen,
Speaker 3: you know, the question of like, well, what do you
Speaker 3: want to do in the next five years, you know,
Speaker 3: and which is always a hilarious question to me. It's
Speaker 3: just like, you know, I want to keep writing, I
Speaker 3: want to keep doing my thing. But answered the question
Speaker 3: in a way it was like, you know, I want
Speaker 3: to continue to elevate the sport, and I want to
Speaker 3: continue to see where I can elevate myself within the sport,
Speaker 3: and I want to add to my family. Before the
Speaker 3: next Olympics, we were walking to the ox Olympic cycle
Speaker 3: and you could hear a pin drop. It was like, wait,
Speaker 3: didn't we already sit through this with you?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 4: And I'm like, I didn't I already prove that it.
Speaker 2: Proved by coming back and winning. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And they're like, well, we're not going to continue
Speaker 3: your contract. We want someone more dedicated to their craft,
Speaker 3: like you know, essentially as like the wildest It was
Speaker 3: just the wildest two minutes of my life to sit
Speaker 3: there and be told that you're not dedicated because you
Speaker 3: also would like to have a family and expand your
Speaker 3: family and so anyway, so that was that first part.
Speaker 3: So going into twenty seventeen, a conversation had there was
Speaker 3: more to act.
Speaker 1: That conversation felt like you needed to run again and
Speaker 1: prove yeah again. You talked to unders World about that
Speaker 1: conversation with the two men from AAIs who replaced the
Speaker 1: woman that you had worked with, and how they told you,
Speaker 1: you know, if you don't make the Olympic team, you'll
Speaker 1: lose your opportunities for sponsorship, you'll lose your opportunities to
Speaker 1: continue your career. This was two months after the baby,
Speaker 1: and that you already planned on coming back. You already
Speaker 1: knew you were going to continue. It wasn't up to them,
Speaker 1: but they felt like they had authority over you because
Speaker 1: you had become a mother and because of the choices
Speaker 1: you had made.
Speaker 2: This was part of this larger issue that you had.
Speaker 1: With sponsorships and family planning, and both AAIs and Nike
Speaker 1: presented issues. So in May of twenty nineteen, you decide
Speaker 1: to break a non disclosure agreement with your former sponsor,
Speaker 1: Nike and publish a video op ed in The New
Speaker 1: York Times called Nike told Me to dream crazy until
Speaker 1: I wanted a baby, and in it you call out
Speaker 1: Nike's lack of maternity coverage policies and also your issues
Speaker 1: with AAIs. Can you take me to that moment, in
Speaker 1: that decision to break an NDA and also to go
Speaker 1: public in a way that you probably expected some pretty
Speaker 1: serious fallout from.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I had nothing to lose at that point.
Speaker 3: You know, I just had my next four year opportunity
Speaker 3: to continue to train at the level I was able
Speaker 3: to train out with you know, the financial support I
Speaker 3: was getting stripped away from me for choosing motherhood, and
Speaker 3: I continue to try my hardest to balance now motherhood.
Speaker 4: With you know, two children.
Speaker 3: I continued to walk in my path of happiness, and
Speaker 3: I had I become pregnant with my second which we
Speaker 3: saw that and running in twenty seventeen, and I had
Speaker 3: my son. But what I recognized at the same time
Speaker 3: was this story that was writing itself was it was
Speaker 3: essentially these best practices and policies that we are now implementing,
Speaker 3: and we're having brands and sponsors and corporations also implement
Speaker 3: our goal standard for contractual language. It was being written
Speaker 3: because I was seeing the fallout of the loss of
Speaker 3: those finances as the top American athlete in the sport,
Speaker 3: the most decorated eight hundred meters runner in the US
Speaker 3: of all time, now does not have an opportunity to
Speaker 3: pursue on the next Olympic team because of choices that
Speaker 3: these men had made. And you know, so when we're
Speaker 3: looking at what that the difference would be if I
Speaker 3: were to be able to break my NDA and talk
Speaker 3: about it out loud, it would mean the difference for
Speaker 3: everybody to hear the entirety of the story and understand, like, Okay,
Speaker 3: Alicie just retired because she had her family, you know,
Speaker 3: and at the end of the day, like I also
Speaker 3: wasn't I also wasn't receiving any funding in order for
Speaker 3: me to continue to pursue or thrive in my career
Speaker 3: or in my motherhood at this point. So it made
Speaker 3: the most sense to me to make sure that these
Speaker 3: siled conversations were no longer siloed.
Speaker 4: I hoped that the.
Speaker 3: Door would crack open a little bit for all of
Speaker 3: the you know, women who were facing the same thing
Speaker 3: because we knew it was happening to also speak out,
Speaker 3: And that happened, you know, ten days later, Alison Felix,
Speaker 3: the most decorated check and field a holistically of all times,
Speaker 3: shared her story and the similar things that had happened
Speaker 3: with her, and Carra Goucher the same thing. And then
Speaker 3: out of the woodworks all of these women sharing their stories,
Speaker 3: some who had retired, some who were walking into pregnancy
Speaker 3: and facing that issue right now across all sports. So
Speaker 3: I know, I know it was the right thing to do,
Speaker 3: And ultimately they have these NDAs in place as gag
Speaker 3: orders so that they can continue.
Speaker 2: To because they know that what they're doing is wrong.
Speaker 4: Exactly.
Speaker 2: It's not a normal thing to have an NDA with
Speaker 2: your sponsors.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's gotta be a reason we got to take.
Speaker 2: A quick break.
Speaker 1: When we come back more with Alicia Montagno stick around.
Speaker 1: You inspire all sorts of change by stepping up and
Speaker 1: speaking out, including other athletes, then speaking out in your wake,
Speaker 1: and then you launch and Mother in twenty twenty, now
Speaker 1: known as For All Mothers, presumably as a response to
Speaker 1: your struggles with your sponsors and because of the way
Speaker 1: folks reacted to racing while pregnant and didn't get the
Speaker 1: narratives right around choosing both your sport and motherhood.
Speaker 2: Do you remember the.
Speaker 1: Exact moment that you realized that you wanted to or
Speaker 1: needed to create something to help fix this broken system,
Speaker 1: beyond just speaking out an advocacy, but actually creating a
Speaker 1: company around it.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, the exact moment.
Speaker 3: I think it was a little bit of a I
Speaker 3: want to say, a medium birm, you know where it
Speaker 3: was like, okay, so we recognize that this is creating
Speaker 3: a movement. I had everybody, my friends who were researchers,
Speaker 3: friends who were journalists, all across the board in academia
Speaker 3: sharing their story and the similar compound, you know, to
Speaker 3: the repercussions that they faced when they walked into their
Speaker 3: motherhood and were also working to continue their careers. And
Speaker 3: what I recognized was this wasn't about sports. This is
Speaker 3: bigger than sports. It's that sports is a microcosm of
Speaker 3: what's happening in the world, and I get to help
Speaker 3: affect change through the lens of sports. We're asking for
Speaker 3: the same thing that women across all industries are asking for.
Speaker 3: We're asking for, you know, lines within our contract that
Speaker 3: have maternity, pregnancy, postpartum.
Speaker 4: We're asking for, you know, the opportunity for pay leave.
Speaker 4: We're asking for we're safe, respectable elactation, accommodations, and we're
Speaker 4: asking for access to childcare, whether it be through stipends
Speaker 4: or by creating within our contracts, you know, an opportunity
Speaker 4: for us to bring along folks to support our careers.
Speaker 4: We have all these other clauses that you know, massage therapists,
Speaker 4: all of these other things that support our career. Here
Speaker 4: are caveats that could also support you know, a woman
Speaker 4: athlete if she were to walk into motherhood and allow
Speaker 4: her an opportunity to continue to expand her career. So
Speaker 4: when I saw all of those you know, satellite moments,
Speaker 4: I realized that the only way for us to affect
Speaker 4: change in a way that will have some real depth
Speaker 4: and impact and continue to you know, put fire to
Speaker 4: the flame is to create an organization where we pilot,
Speaker 4: you know, these movements that we want to see happen,
Speaker 4: and that where we create the best practices and recommendations
Speaker 4: in order to support not only athletes but mothers. Within
Speaker 4: the sports industry, I mean, it still is a very
Speaker 4: much male dominated field in all facets of it, broadcast, coaching,
Speaker 4: you know, all facets of it. That we get this
Speaker 4: opportunity to have this runway and this lane for the
Speaker 4: athletes to ultimately do what they do in the sport.
Speaker 4: You know, they are the performers.
Speaker 3: They are you know, in for better or for words,
Speaker 3: the commoditized vessel that allows for the industry to go.
Speaker 3: So if we create standards that protect them in their
Speaker 3: careers and in their motherhood, we ultimately will be creating
Speaker 3: the blueprint for success in infrastructure in society.
Speaker 1: And it's so necessary in women's sports to take a
Speaker 1: look at everything created with men in mind and ask
Speaker 1: whether that actually serves the same sport for women. And
Speaker 1: it's not just sponsorship deals, it's you know, things like
Speaker 1: track athletes receiving health insurance from the USOPC and USA
Speaker 1: Track and Field, and then losing that insurance if they
Speaker 1: don't finish in the top tier. Even if they're not
Speaker 1: finishing as a result of pregnancy, they're unable to compete
Speaker 1: at that time, whether that's lactation areas or opportunities to
Speaker 1: room by yourself on a team sport because you're pregnant
Speaker 1: or you have a child with you. There's so many
Speaker 1: opportunities to look at some issues that are never really
Speaker 1: covered on the men's side, that need to have intention
Speaker 1: behind them on the women's side. And I wonder, you know,
Speaker 1: before we get to more about what for all mothers does,
Speaker 1: what changes you saw almost instantly in the industry from
Speaker 1: Nike or AAIs or others as a result of you
Speaker 1: and folks like Alison Felix speaking out. Were there instant
Speaker 1: things that occurred that then helped you see the bigger
Speaker 1: picture and say, Okay, these are things we need to
Speaker 1: push ford with for all mothers and also parts of
Speaker 1: the system that we didn't even maybe realize we need
Speaker 1: to address and do white papers for.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I thought.
Speaker 3: I think instantaneous success was doing the op ED and
Speaker 3: having all of these brands and sponsors come out and
Speaker 3: you know, change the policies almost immediately. You know, we
Speaker 3: had a handful of brands and sponsors within those first
Speaker 3: two weeks announce that they were changing their policies or
Speaker 3: they were including this within their policies. They recognize, oh,
Speaker 3: like this is I get it. You know, these contracts
Speaker 3: are standard, but they're standard for men. And so I
Speaker 3: think that was really awesome and that's something where we're like, Okay,
Speaker 3: now we've got to work through what the next step
Speaker 3: is going to look like so we can continue to
Speaker 3: create these best practices.
Speaker 4: What is it?
Speaker 3: What do we need to do now? Now we need
Speaker 3: to do more research, We need to bring these incredible
Speaker 3: athletes to the forefront and their stories to the forefront,
Speaker 3: but we also need to continue to ask these back
Speaker 3: end questions that continue to make the landscape better. And
Speaker 3: you know, a big thing I think that's going to
Speaker 3: come to light and recognition is that, you know, really
Speaker 3: our organ has A plus so it's for all mothers
Speaker 3: plus because the acronym is FA M plus, so it's
Speaker 3: really fam plus when you see it like that, and
Speaker 3: we want for that to be that visual representation because
Speaker 3: right now it.
Speaker 4: Still is putting the onus on women.
Speaker 3: It still puts you know, the all of the the
Speaker 3: brunt of caregiving and the responsibility of raising children, and
Speaker 3: you know, essentially raising society all on women. And what
Speaker 3: we wanted to is something that holistically brings everybody into
Speaker 3: the family and helps them recognize that we are actually
Speaker 3: creating a village mentality where if we care for our
Speaker 3: mothers and we care for our women, we ultimately care
Speaker 3: for our entire ecosystem, which is our family.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's so many elements to the professional
Speaker 1: landscape that haven't been done before, so they require somebody
Speaker 1: to lay out a path. And one important aspect of
Speaker 1: your work is offering these downloadable reports, these white papers
Speaker 1: advising best practices. You've got one model sponsorship contract provisions
Speaker 1: for pregnancy and parental leave. You've got a best practices
Speaker 1: for supporting and accommodating pregnant and parenting athletes.
Speaker 2: Have you heard from.
Speaker 1: Orgs or leagues or otherwise asking you to help them
Speaker 1: craft their policies or their cbas.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, we have, and that's been the most incredible
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 4: Opportunity. And that's our goal.
Speaker 3: You know, our goal is by LA twenty twenty eight
Speaker 3: that we would have standardized all Olympic and Paralympic sports
Speaker 3: because we know that again we have this great opportunity
Speaker 3: on us soil to have these poliam moments not just
Speaker 3: be for the athletes, but to be for society. And
Speaker 3: with those white papers, we've got a few more that
Speaker 3: are coming out we're really excited about. We have our
Speaker 3: Fertility white paper that's coming out that helps inform our
Speaker 3: expanded language for our model provisions, which is known as
Speaker 3: our gold standard for contractual language, and it adds more
Speaker 3: caveats in there that support the entire journey of what
Speaker 3: it could look like in pursuing motherhood and protects those
Speaker 3: athletes by adding in words that protect their fertility and
Speaker 3: any treatment that might need to go along with it.
Speaker 3: It also says things in their like pregnancy loss and
Speaker 3: protects that athlete from a psychological safety and physical standpoint.
Speaker 3: You know, we just recognize how important it is for
Speaker 3: us to record those words. So we've had different NNGBS
Speaker 3: players associations reach out to us to help craft these practices.
Speaker 4: I'm very excited.
Speaker 3: In June there's going to be an announcement of one
Speaker 3: of our of our players associations that we have connected
Speaker 3: with which ultimately had us work with the governing body.
Speaker 4: So it's very exciting with that.
Speaker 3: And then we've got over a dozen players associations and
Speaker 3: MGBs who are we're crafting best practices with them, and
Speaker 3: so I really see the snowball effect and I see
Speaker 3: us reaching our goal by LA twenty twenty eight of
Speaker 3: standardizing all of the sports amazing.
Speaker 1: There's like some pretty severe examples when it comes to
Speaker 1: like cost of being a mom and having a family
Speaker 1: in certain sports like Bob's led. We had Alana Meyer's
Speaker 1: tailor on and she's had to pay childcare costs out
Speaker 1: of pocket. It's an expensive sport to begin with, but
Speaker 1: then to pay to have her children travel and have
Speaker 1: a nanny and all this other stuff. Do you intentionally
Speaker 1: expand outside the sports you already work with or do
Speaker 1: you wait for other sports to come to you.
Speaker 3: We intentionally expand outside of the sports we work with.
Speaker 3: But it's also naturally synergetic, you know, it ends up
Speaker 3: being we're following, you know, the athletes who are mothers,
Speaker 3: and we hear a power moment. I might write congratulations,
Speaker 3: and they might write back to me, Alicia, thank you,
Speaker 3: congratulations for helping create this you know, landscape for us,
Speaker 3: and then the conversation gets started. So there's this very
Speaker 3: natural connection that does end up happening. And I love
Speaker 3: that you mentioned Alana Mayer Taylor. She's absolutely incredible. She's
Speaker 3: just a force. You know, she's just a force. And
Speaker 3: we also have supported her, we continue to support her
Speaker 3: or she was one of our legacy champions and one
Speaker 3: of our change makers. But what you mentioned about the
Speaker 3: financial repercussions and needing more support and recognizing in order
Speaker 3: for this sport to go, it does require an athlete
Speaker 3: to be gone from their home for a month at
Speaker 3: a time, and so that does mean, you know, if
Speaker 3: I have a family with me, I need to be
Speaker 3: able to bring them with me. And if there are
Speaker 3: not you know, if they're not best practices in place
Speaker 3: that support her family, that ultimately means that you're pushing
Speaker 3: her out of either the sport or an opportunity to
Speaker 3: pursue her motherhood. And so we have research that's coming
Speaker 3: out now, actually we're launching it in the next couple
Speaker 3: of weeks, called the Motherhood Penalty in Sports, and from
Speaker 3: that we hope to have a white paper by June,
Speaker 3: but it is essentially talking about the motherhood penalty and
Speaker 3: matching that to the sports arena. And we face the
Speaker 3: same struggles across the board of what the motherhod penalty is.
Speaker 4: It's we get paid less.
Speaker 3: Where you're not taken serious for our work, you know,
Speaker 3: because of our motherhood, and considerations are not made on
Speaker 3: how to both support our motherhood and also our careers,
Speaker 3: and we oftentimes lose our rank the same way we
Speaker 3: face in society across all industries.
Speaker 4: In the motherhood penalty.
Speaker 1: And in sports, it's like a literal rank. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: you're coming back, so you're no longer number one in
Speaker 1: the world. We make you work your way back up,
Speaker 1: even though you're still the same person that you were.
Speaker 1: For those who are unfamiliar to the motherhood penalty, they say,
Speaker 1: on average, mothers make sixty three cents for every dollar
Speaker 1: paid before they became mothers.
Speaker 2: So it's a.
Speaker 1: Phenomenon where your paid decreases as a result of becoming
Speaker 1: a mother, regardless of whether there are any changes in
Speaker 1: your work or your output, or your time or anything else.
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you think there's anyone or any league
Speaker 1: in particular getting it right, doing a great job.
Speaker 3: You know, Unrivaled. The new leagues are just they're crushing it.
Speaker 3: To me, it's like they understand, like, yeah, that's system
Speaker 3: not working. We have to keep beating down their doors
Speaker 3: in order to make it right. Here's what we're gonna do.
Speaker 3: So I love what Unrivaleds doing.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 3: The LPGA tour had like a traveling sort of childcare.
Speaker 3: That's that's pretty awesome. We also had WTA, which is
Speaker 3: the Women's Setness Association, who was already creating some language.
Speaker 3: We've been connected with them as well. They're doing a
Speaker 3: great job. I mean in WSL. You know, there's some
Speaker 3: stuff to connect on that that's kind of coming out
Speaker 3: part of the work that we're doing, and I'm excited
Speaker 3: about with them.
Speaker 2: I'm glad that it's a long list.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it can be tricky at times to
Speaker 1: support women athletes and their family planning choices, but also
Speaker 1: run a business that relies on the availability of those athletes.
Speaker 1: So are there policies you recommend or are there places
Speaker 1: you're seeing it in action where the mothers are served
Speaker 1: and also teams are protected from the competitive and monetary
Speaker 1: losses suffered when they lose an important player for a
Speaker 1: season or part of a season to pregnancy.
Speaker 3: You know what we want to see in businesses, these players, associations,
Speaker 3: and these brands sort of grow with the sport. I
Speaker 3: think athletes are commoditized enough that there to me, I
Speaker 3: think there's always should be a conversation and room to
Speaker 3: have the conversation on how we can do better.
Speaker 4: To holistically support each other. But I do think the
Speaker 4: answer isn't penalizing the athlete.
Speaker 1: So you know, but there needs to be some sort
Speaker 1: of catch for the league itself that allows for some
Speaker 1: of them have policies that essentially say, like, the team
Speaker 1: was put in a hardship because they had spent X
Speaker 1: money on a player that is now not going to
Speaker 1: play the whole season, So do they get a hardship
Speaker 1: player that's allowed to come in that doesn't count against
Speaker 1: the salary cap?
Speaker 2: Things like that, Because you know.
Speaker 4: Such a great point.
Speaker 1: The more money that's being spent and invested into these
Speaker 1: women's professional leagues in order to operate at the highest
Speaker 1: level with the same legitimacy as men's professional leagues, it
Speaker 1: can't just be a shrug. If millions of dollars are
Speaker 1: spent on a team and their top player misses an
Speaker 1: entire season and it drastically impacts their ability to compete.
Speaker 1: That affects ticket sales, likelihood of playoff and championship bonuses,
Speaker 1: merch all the other stuff. Right, So it's about both
Speaker 1: prioritizing the woman and her choices and also protecting the
Speaker 1: sport and the team because the investment won't be there
Speaker 1: if there isn't a guarantee that there is that legitimacy
Speaker 1: and professionalism.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, exactly that, exactly that. And I know the
Speaker 3: PWHL which is the Professional Women's Hockey League that just launched,
Speaker 3: absolutely incredible, they are working through that sort of holistic
Speaker 3: protection of the sport because you're right, it is you know,
Speaker 3: we're talking about the business part of it and the
Speaker 3: return on the investment. But if you protect the athlete
Speaker 3: and you allow them this runway to get back into
Speaker 3: the sport and be protected both from a finance perspective
Speaker 3: at psychological and physical perspective, you ultimately are protecting that investment. Right,
Speaker 3: and then you as a as a brand NDB Players
Speaker 3: Association now figure out your landscape of yeah, what does
Speaker 3: it look like when we have ex player out for
Speaker 3: the next what are we going to have out for
Speaker 3: like twelve, twelve to sixteen months.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because losing the player altogether because your policies
Speaker 1: don't allow for them to have.
Speaker 2: Both is terrible for the sport.
Speaker 1: It's crazy, and so as not having enough policies to
Speaker 1: protect teams in leagues so that they feel comfortable being
Speaker 1: supportive and offering up the best policies for women who
Speaker 1: do make that choice. We're running out of time here,
Speaker 1: but I had two quick questions I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: you that are just a slightly slightly different. I know
Speaker 1: that you expect to get your Olympic bronze medal.
Speaker 2: More than a decade after the race finished.
Speaker 1: I've missed out on some really big podium moments because
Speaker 1: of dopers. A lot of your medals awarded retroactively, and
Speaker 1: two of your World Championship medals, one from twenty eleven,
Speaker 1: the other from twenty thirteen you were award in twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen and then last April because of the original gold
Speaker 1: medals being found guilty of doping. You're upgraded to an
Speaker 1: Olympic bronze from the eight hundred meter at the twenty
Speaker 1: twelve Olympics. Can you talk about what you missed by
Speaker 1: not getting those medals in the moment and getting those
Speaker 1: honors on the podium.
Speaker 4: Wow, Sarah, you're gonna tear jerk me at the end here. Nah,
Speaker 4: we're good.
Speaker 3: You know, man, a decade, twelve years, that's a long
Speaker 3: time for you guys to uh no and not do
Speaker 3: the right thing. So for me, you know, the loss
Speaker 3: financial loss is huge, you know, been quantifying it for
Speaker 3: my you know, for purposes of legal purposes. Really yeah,
Speaker 3: and it's been absolutely wild. There's some that you see
Speaker 3: and some that you can't see. I remember being in
Speaker 3: about a handful of common versations after that twenty twelve
Speaker 3: Olympic Games going into the next quad, asking about you know,
Speaker 3: new partnerships and you know, my accolades, and they're like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're not a medalist.
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, well.
Speaker 3: We're really looking for medalists, and that's what they are,
Speaker 3: that's what they are looking for. They're looking for medalists
Speaker 3: and who's going to sponsor them and that makes their
Speaker 3: highlight reel all the more powerful. And then also you know,
Speaker 3: family planning. You know, it's it's huge in that it's again.
Speaker 3: We talked about this earlier where it was like, well,
Speaker 3: you know, women face this negative psychological barrier when it
Speaker 3: comes to choosing to expand their families based on what
Speaker 3: accolades they've achieved yet and how that's going to be perceived.
Speaker 3: Have they earned an opportunity to be holistically happy and
Speaker 3: if that includes motherhood are you allowed.
Speaker 4: To do that? Now? Have you done enough?
Speaker 3: And for me, I had to make that choice where
Speaker 3: I said, I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 4: That was twenty ten. I won.
Speaker 3: I got that one in real time twenty eleven, twenty twelve,
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, I didn't get in real time, and I
Speaker 3: had my daughter. I became pregnant with my daughter and
Speaker 3: had her that next year. And I had this conversation
Speaker 3: with my husband and I said, I know are medaled
Speaker 3: in all of those.
Speaker 4: I meddled in every last one of those.
Speaker 3: So I mean, I think psychological loss is something that
Speaker 3: you can't quantify and.
Speaker 1: Decision making around whether you had goals that you hadn't
Speaker 1: hit yet, and you had indeed hit them, do you
Speaker 1: anticipate some pretty serious emotion when you actually get handed
Speaker 1: that Olympic medal coming up here because you've gotten world
Speaker 1: championships at other ones, but this is the Olympic bronze.
Speaker 4: This is the Olympic bronze.
Speaker 3: And that's like, you know, the dream, right every athlete
Speaker 3: that is fighting for an opportunity to compete at the
Speaker 3: pinnacle of their sport at the Olympic Games.
Speaker 4: You want to fight for a medal.
Speaker 3: And at the time, my grandma just turned one hundred.
Speaker 3: The day I ran my first race is live and
Speaker 3: she just she turned one hundred that day. They broadcasted it.
Speaker 3: You know, we said happy birthday to her in real time.
Speaker 3: And I can't forecast emotions, but I imagine I'm gonna
Speaker 3: feel a lot. I mean, I've already been feeling quite
Speaker 3: a bit. I've gone through I think the initial earlier
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four, just like announcement, I kind of
Speaker 3: had me a little frozen. And then I kind of
Speaker 3: went through this wave of WHOA like being a human
Speaker 3: being and having emotions as wild because you know, I'm
Speaker 3: allowed to feel all of these things, but I had
Speaker 3: no recognition of what half of these emotions were that
Speaker 3: were coming through. That had me kind of just stuck
Speaker 3: in bed. Then have me fight for my life and
Speaker 3: then have me excited to talk about it and then
Speaker 3: have me do the thing again. And so I'm hoping
Speaker 3: I feel just proud of myself. I hope that I
Speaker 3: feel like I'm able to be fair to myself and
Speaker 3: all the emotions that come with it, and that I
Speaker 3: recognize that strength can have all of those things, whether
Speaker 3: it be maybe I fold into a puddle of gears
Speaker 3: on the floor, whatever it be, I deserve an opportunity
Speaker 3: to do that, and I want to allow myself an
Speaker 3: opportunity to be in that moment.
Speaker 1: Well, it extends the time you have to wait for it,
Speaker 1: but I do think it's cool how they've started doing
Speaker 1: it at Olympics, so that you feel like you're a
Speaker 1: part of the pageantry and the moment, even if it's
Speaker 1: not the Olympics. You were at to be at the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight Olympics, and have that be a time
Speaker 1: when you get recognized alongside all these other incredible athletes
Speaker 1: does give it a little bit more oomph than just
Speaker 1: mailing it to you.
Speaker 4: So yes, please, Yeah, And it's get to be home,
Speaker 4: you know, on my current.
Speaker 2: Home soil, which is really cool.
Speaker 3: I'm hopeful they'll honor some of the things I want,
Speaker 3: which is lots of tickets for my family to be there.
Speaker 3: I want mine in stadium.
Speaker 4: You know, I want that moment for me.
Speaker 1: So askers are getters, so hopefully then that works out.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the time, and thank you
Speaker 1: for your continued work. We'll be interested in catching up
Speaker 1: even years down the road and see how the policies
Speaker 1: continue to evolve and best serve athlete moms. But you're
Speaker 1: on the forefront of it, so congrats on the work
Speaker 1: you've already done.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Sarah.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Alicia for joining us. We got
Speaker 2: to take another break back into jiff Welcome back slices.
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too.
Speaker 2: So here's our good game play of the day.
Speaker 1: I mentioned it already, but go check out Alicia's op
Speaker 1: ed in the New York Times.
Speaker 2: It's really powerful.
Speaker 1: We'll put the link in our show notes and if
Speaker 1: you're hanging at home tonight, you can listen or watch
Speaker 1: the iHeart Podcast Awards. I'm presenting and receiving an Icon Award.
Speaker 1: The audio stream is available via the exclusive iHeart Podcast
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Speaker 1: rate and review.
Speaker 2: It's easy. Watch dress Codes rating five out of five.
Speaker 2: Huh review.
Speaker 1: I need a Dress Codes for Dummies book. I think like,
Speaker 1: if it ain't black tie or casual, I'm out. I'm
Speaker 1: just constantly confused about everything in the middle, Like this
Speaker 1: weekend's events at south By Southwest quote business casual with
Speaker 1: a mix of Texas chic y'all, what the.
Speaker 2: Does that mean?
Speaker 1: A blazer on top and cowboy boots on the bottom,
Speaker 1: like a ten gallon hat and a pencil skirt.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Just I don't know.
Speaker 1: Tell me what to wear, and seriously, I mean like
Speaker 1: literally lay the outfit on the bed for me.
Speaker 2: I'm not a fashion GIRLI wow the hell you think
Speaker 2: I got into.
Speaker 1: Sports damn now it's your turn. Rate and review. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game, Alicia, Good game
Speaker 1: for all mothers. Few brands, leagues and organizations that care
Speaker 1: more about dollars than accommodating the real people and parents
Speaker 1: that you work with. Good Game With Sarah Spain is
Speaker 1: an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue
Speaker 1: Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
Speaker 2: and Misha Jones.
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan,
Speaker 1: and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez,
Speaker 1: and Grace Lynch. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones and
Speaker 1: I'm Your host Sarah Spain