WEBVTT - Impression Management 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:18.320 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of Iheartradioy. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:13.920 And welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.960 and Jerry's here too, and we're putting on our best 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.960 faces in this episode of Stuff you. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.840 Should Know right our front stage self. 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.240 Yeah, and speaking of stage check, I have a great 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.160 intro to this. I believe it was Rush who first 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:33.519 said all the world's is stage, and the men and 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.440 women on it are merely players or something like that. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.479 Yeah, performers and portrayers. Yeah, each another's audience. 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.320 Is that what he says? I never knew, and I've 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.760 never bothered to look up the lyrics because there's definitely 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:47.519 some words in there. I'm like, I don't know what 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:48.640 Geddy Leek just said. 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.200 Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure that's right. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.760 It's a great, great song, Limelight, very well written, what 0:00:54.960 --> 0:01:01.560 very original stuff. Yeah, so we're talking about impression management today, right, Yes, sir, 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.240 And what do you think about it? 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.080 Well? I think that I just the more I've done 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:09.880 this show over the years, the more I realized that 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:14.320 I could have been a sociologist. Oh yeah, yeah, man, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.920 this stuff fascinates me to no end. I took one 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.120 sociology class in college, and that's it. And I remember 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.800 at the time, you know, when very little outside of 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.319 English major classes interested me. I was like, man, this 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.080 is super interesting to me, but not enough to pursue it. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:35.480 But human behaviors is endlessly fascinating to me. 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.040 Yeah. And one of the things, sociology gets beat up 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.240 and edged out and elbowed in the face by psychology 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:45.440 a lot unfairly, I think too. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:50.400 Yeah, I'm not talking about social psychology, no, be clear, sociology. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:56.320 Yeah. And if sociology started out, we should say basically 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:04.840 examining massive institutions. It was macro sociology religion, like economics, politics, 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.320 that kind of stuff, and just how people behaved and 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:11.760 interacted or how people came together to form these institutions. 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.040 And then the guy we're going to talk about today 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.680 came along and he's like, let's kind of zoom in 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.840 a little more. And like you were saying, he kicked 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:25.720 off this this type of sociology that examines like people, 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.839 just interactions, very small interactions that sometimes we don't even 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:33.200 know what we're doing. And apparently you're very interested in that. 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:35.520 I am, And you know what, it seems like the 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:39.040 more I've learned about Irving Goffman through today's research, and 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.800 you know, researching him a little further. Like he's a 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.000 Canadian American sociologist, and this is like the mid twentieth century, 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:48.720 nineteen fifties ish when he started doing a lot of 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.600 this work. He seems to me like someone who was 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.320 just fascinated by human behavior, even more even in a 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.320 way that like other sociologists weren't, especially at the time. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.120 Yeah, for sure, he yeah, And he also I read 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.160 that he developed like a real sympathy for the people 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.800 who were pushed to the fringes of society unfairly, basically 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.000 across the board. So he was not only like a 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.880 really good sociologist and very intuitive, and apparently had a 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.920 really interesting writing style too. He loves a good like 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.160 turn of phrase. He was also like a very empathetic, 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.399 good person. That's what I can tell. 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.840 Oh, man, I'm so glad I didn't hook my wagon do. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:31.679 The wrong dude, right, But no, you hooked his to 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:32.200 the right guy. 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.160 And when it's somebody from the nineteen fifties, you never 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.840 know what's going to happen there. We should probably say 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.360 we're talking about though, impression management or self presentation or 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:45.760 perception management is basically these are terms that he all 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.120 came up. He came up with all of these essentially, 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.240 and it's it's just how you present to others. And 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.080 you know, we'll get into the nuts and bolts of it. 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.280 But how much you might think about that, how much 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.120 is automatic, how much is intuition, how much of it 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.520 is authenticity. It's super fascinating to me. I just I 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:05.200 love this stuff. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.480 Yeah, and a lot of it. I mean, when we 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.560 start talking about it too, it'll just seem very common sense, like, yeah, 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.240 of course you're going to you know, mind your p's 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.919 and cues and sit up straight and be friendly in 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.480 a job interview. And that is a type of impression management. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.120 But it is way more granular than that, to the 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.720 point where like, if you're into language linguistics that kind 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.200 of thing, the entire purpose of a conversation is to 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.640 exchange information like I know this now I'm sharing it 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.839 with you. The other person says, thank you very much, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.600 And that's what a conversations for as far as impression 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.240 management goes. And Irvin Goffman and his Milk conversations are 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:49.880 essentially performances that two people share and do for one another. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:55.840 That helps create a version of ourselves that we kind 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.839 of walk around with, and that that changes. And there's 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.160 very little point to a conversation other than that it's 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.600 a radically different view of things. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.640 Yeah, I also think it's interesting, and this is you know, 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.479 this is all just precursor stuff that we're babbling on about. 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:17.039 But when you said it just seems like instinct or whatever, 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.720 would you say, common sense to do these things? Not everybody, 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.280 my friend, And that is something that I've gotten better 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.680 about over the years. It used to be something that 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.560 really bothered me, and I would you know, leave an 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.719 interaction with somebody or something and with Emily and be 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.839 like god, like just social cluelessness is such a turn 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.640 off for me, like read the room, buddy, that kind 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.800 of thing. But then the more I've gotten older and 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.400 the more we've all learned about different neurodiversities, I've definitely 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.120 found myself in a place where i'd try to be like, hey, 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.880 I don't know what this person's deal is, Like they 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.720 may be struggling just to present themselves as you know, 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.760 passing or masking, and you know, we're going to talk 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.960 about all this stuff in a situation just to sort 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:04.640 of get by. So I try to really keep that 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.000 stuff in mind these days. 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.120 For sure. And I feel like there's different tranches. Yeah, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.960 there's the one you just describe. There's people who this 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.159 is so effortless too, they don't even have to think 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.880 about it, and they're just great basically across the board. 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.960 Then there's everybody else in the middle. Some people in 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:22.919 the middle are better at it than others. Some people 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.400 think too hard about it and they become obvious and 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.760 clumsy and essentially though no one can escape it, I 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.320 think is my point. There's nobody out there who doesn't 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.760 engage in some sort of impression management essentially their entire lives. 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.800 Yeah, and neurodiversity society again, which we'll talk about. There 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.640 are also people who aren't neurodiversity who were just glueless 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.960 a holes. And I have found too in my life 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.680 that I believe narcissism plays a part. I think narcissists 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:56.000 have a much harder time because they're generally just have 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.080 their heads up, their own buttson or so about the 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.200 self that they are off. And the ones that I found, 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.520 if they don't have some sort of you know, nerdivergence. 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:06.440 That's the reason why they are like they are, maybe 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.560 because of narcissism, because you know, usually the reply after 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:14.000 someone is like read the room, buddy, they're like, what. 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.560 What, I'm perfect, what do you mean read the room? 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:19.880 You read the room exactly. So let's get into it 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.400 and we'll start with Goffman and where he got his 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:28.080 start again, this is Irving Goffman, groundbreaking sociologist. He started 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.400 off doing field work in a Scottish village and rather 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.040 than figuring out how the city council worked for that 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.200 or the village elders basically kept everybody in line, he 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.040 just ameshed himself in the village and just paid attention 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:47.160 to how people interacted with one another. And really like, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.960 that's a very anthropological way of studying. Is very not 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.560 how they did it at the time among sociologists. So 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.480 here's groundbreaking. He essentially went like, I'm going to take 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.320 this field and just put it, take it in a 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.240 different direction. So let's go. 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.440 Yeah, for sure. He wrote a book in nineteen fifty 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.320 six called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life. What 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.120 a great title, No Colon's it's exactly what it says. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.480 It is a very big book in the world of sociology, 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.680 and the International Sociological Association named it as a tenth 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.480 most important sociology book of the twentieth century. And in 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.600 this book is where he touched on what you talked 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.520 about with this sort of performance aspect of our everyday 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.400 lives with He didn't invent it, you know, it was 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:37.280 an existing concept, but dramaturgical theory, which is what you said, 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.640 like we're all sort of operating on a social script, 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.400 sort of like the terminator, Like it's pretty limited. You 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.720 don't have endless options, like maybe you should say one 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.520 of these four things at this dinner party when someone 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.400 brings up a thing. And even if it's a brand 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.160 news situation, you're drawing on the scripts that you've used 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.640 over and over in your life to work out how 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:00.840 to inner act in the scene. 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.199 Right. Yeah, And it's also, yeah, it's been shaped by 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.640 interactions with other people. It's shaped by what you've seen 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.080 on TV, which can be very dangerous because stuff that's 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:15.480 like hilarious on a sitcom does not necessarily translate well 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.120 into real life. It's like you're being a huge jerk 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.120 or you're not really that funny. You know, in the 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.920 case of somebody who models themselves after friends. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.200 Yeah, like, pull my finger doesn't always break the ice. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.600 No, pull my finger always works. Okay, great, but yeah, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.760 so what his point was in the dramaturgical theory, And 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:35.800 like you said, he didn't invent it, but if you 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.520 if you look into it, he's basically like he's the 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.280 guy who took it and ran with it. Yeah, no 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:46.320 matter where you are, you're performing, and depending on where 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.000 you are you're going, your performance is going to be different. Right, 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:52.920 So if you're sitting there at school, you're gonna act 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.120 different than you do at a bar. 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:01.000 Yeah, right, sure, ideally, yeah, you wo hope for sure. 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.960 And then if you're at work, you know you're going 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:06.760 to act a little different from that too. And it's 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.840 essentially even when you're hanging out with your closest friends, 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:16.400 sociologists believe that you're still performing in some way, shape 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.040 or form, just probably less than you normally do. 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:23.280 Yeah, and some think even when you're by yourself that 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.160 that still informs how you talk to your little person 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.360 on your shoulder, right, which is really interesting. He talked 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:35.160 about appearance and like clothing even and how they will convey. 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:37.680 And when we say actor, we're just talking about a person, 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:39.960 but in his context of it all being a performance, 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.840 he'd called them actors. But you know, your your costume 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:44.960 that you put on is going to convey like maybe 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.439 your social status, maybe what kind of job you have. 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.080 There's you know, there's that outward appearance, and then there's 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:56.280 the manner in which you deal with someone. And obeying 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:00.319 the sort of societal rules in a social situation is 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.560 a big time thing. And if you start to do 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.080 things that don't comply with what people generally expect in 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.600 you know, at a dinner party or on an elevator 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.200 or something like that, it can upset people around you. 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.280 I think the interesting thing that I took from that is, 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.600 I mean, that's kind of common sense, but when you're writing, 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:23.080 like a screenplay or something like dramatic writing or a play, 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:27.360 the most interesting characters are usually people that do things 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.560 that surprise you, or that fly in the face of 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.920 maybe a social norm, or make a decision that's unexpected. 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.160 So I think it's interesting that in drama it makes 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.280 for very compelling characters, but in real life we kind 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:38.960 of don't want that generally. 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.520 Yeah, like the Manic Pixie dream Girl. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.800 Right, I don't know what you mean by that. I mean, 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:47.000 I know what that term means, but I don't know 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:47.719 how it relates to this. 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.000 Oh they're always doing like crazy stuff that like makes 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.679 the protagon or fall in love with them or whatever. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotcha. So in terms of a script, 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:58.760 that might be engaging even within the world of the script, 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.840 whereas in real life, I don't know, a man at 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.520 Pixie dream Girl might go over, but the person saying 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.360 pull my finger the dinner party may not. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.800 Well, it's funny that you say drama too, because to me, 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.439 where in my mind was comedy, Like almost all comedy 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:18.640 is a person behaving in a way that is violates 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.920 the situation that they're in, violates the scene and the 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.400 script that they're supposed to be saying. That's all from 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:30.679 Adam Sandler to late Adam Sandler, right, it's all basically that. 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.400 Yeah, I mean, that's the basis of joke telling. Really 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.800 is the unexpected thing happens super interesting. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.079 And then one other thing too. He made a really 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.679 good point. He said that the characters or the people 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.000 who are interacting and again just essentially performing that they're 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.600 trying to come to a common definition of the situation 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:52.560 is what he called it. 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:54.559 Yeah, that expected norm. 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.920 Yeah, and so like if you see, say, a scene 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.439 on TV, it's just such a perfect analogy because that's 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.400 essentially what he's talking about. And there's just one dude 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.000 standing at a bus stop and it's a businessman. Say 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:11.000 that scene is in a superposition. It hasn't been defined 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:16.320 yet because there's only one person, and by the entrance 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.640 of the next person, that's when the scene will start 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.120 to be defined. If it's that guy's boss, he's gonna 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.960 act totally different than if it's a pickpocket or something 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.640 like that. So the scene hasn't been defined yet. But 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.360 regardless of how it ends up, like what scene it is, 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:36.160 both are playing their role essentially that we just innately 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.559 know almost not innately because it's learned, but it becomes 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.360 just second nature for most people. 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:46.080 Yeah, for sure. He also thought that, you know, there's 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.240 obviously verbal and nonverbal parts to this, with body language 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.600 and how you dress and all that stuff. But Goffman 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.280 himself thought that the non verbal part did I say 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:55.880 non purple? 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.600 If you did? It was lost on me. But I 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.439 like non purple more Okay. 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.280 I think I might have said non purple anyway, which 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.960 is basically every other color but purple. Yeah. He thought 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.040 the non verbal part was the most significant because it's 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.600 harder to fake, which I think is pretty interesting. 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:15.520 Yeah, yeah for sure. 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.560 And that also, like, while you're performing quote unquote again, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.200 do we need to keep saying that, like people know 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:21.600 what you mean? 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.600 Right, Yeah, I mean we could just say interacting with 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:25.320 another person. 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:31.040 Yeah, while you're interacting as the actor, right, you may 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.880 be aware that you have like a goal in mind, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:35.440 like I got a you know, I met this thing, 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.280 I got a present really well, or you may not. 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.880 Yeah, you may not have a goal. It may be, 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.280 as we'll see, you're just trying to keep from freaking 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.640 the other person out, you know, like you're not trying 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.360 to get anywhere. You're not trying to advance or get 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:55.040 something from the person or make somebody think that you're great, 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.320 but just being engaged, forced into a social interaction like 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.120 that you have to perform a certain way or else 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.720 the other person is going to be weirded out, is 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.280 going to want to get away from you. Sometimes people 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:13.320 get really upset when somebody violates norms. And I think 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:17.680 you can, really you can. This explains it a lot, 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.480 because it's like someone is expecting somebody to behave in 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.440 a certain way. That person purposefully doesn't behave in that way. 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.960 Then the people around them might get angry at that person, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.400 even though they might just be being themselves. 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.280 Yeah, or get scared. Like you know, when you get 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.200 on an elevator by yourself and there's only one person 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.840 on there, you act in a certain way as an 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:45.000 almost way to say you're safe right now. You don't 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.320 need to worry about me. I'm just going to my room. 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.080 I'm not gonna I'm not that guy that's going to 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.600 be some weirdo on the elevator. I promise you're okay. 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.119 Yeah, or even like try to strike up a conversation 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.680 like that that's unnerving and disarming. 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.720 Yeah, I mean I think definitely not as much for 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.640 me as for some people. Because I was raised in 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.240 the South, I'm more used to that. And definitely also 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.920 in an enclosed space like an elevator, the norms are 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.160 much different than like walking down the street or something. 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.560 For sure, you know you're trapped basically in that little. 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.440 Box, right, Yeah, you have a captive audience. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:19.920 And now I'm panicking. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.400 So, just to kind of wrap up the whole dramaturgical 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.480 theory part, Goffman said, we have our front stage selves, 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:29.200 which I think you referred to earlier. 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.440 Right, that's us right now, and that's what we do 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:32.400 on our job every day. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.520 Okay, Yeah, but I feel like we're not that much 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.400 different in real life. No. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.280 I think you're right. I mean, that's one of the 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.040 reasons this show works, I think, and why a lot 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.640 of podcasts work is because people are their more true selves. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.320 But it's also sort of the best version of our 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.480 true selves, Like we're not the jerks that we can 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:49.200 be in real life. 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.120 Yeah, and that's a really great point that we'll see later. Like, 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.040 just because you're doing this doesn't mean you're a phony 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.320 or inauthentic. You're just drawing on the parts of yourself 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.280 that are already there that apply to the situation best 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:03.600 in presenting those. 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.640 Yeah, totally. And I said we I meant me you're 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:07.679 not a jerk. And so I'm just speaking for myself. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.280 Hey man, I'm always happy to be included with you. 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:11.440 I'm along for the ride. 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:13.919 Well, everybody compete like that here and there. That's all 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.040 I'm saying, right right, I know what you're saying. You 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.000 don't have to explain it to me, all right, I 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.240 was explaining to everyone else. Didn't think I was just 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:21.240 dragging you down with me. 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.720 So you've got front stage selves. This is when you're 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.440 you're on stage, you're really out there. There's backstage when 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:35.280 you're hanging with your homies. Yeah, homeboys, homegirls, Yeah yeah, 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.920 and just general homies, maybe your family. If you get 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.560 along with your family, and you might feel comfortable and 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.320 calm around them, So that would be your backstage self. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.560 But note this, he's not saying front stage self, and 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:53.040 then yourself, it's still a backstage self. You're still attached 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:57.760 to the stage. You're still in the theater. Yeah, even 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.240 when you're hanging out with your homies. 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:01.800 Yeah, that's true. And then there's the off stage, and 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.639 that's when it's just one on one this is the best, 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:06.480 and that's still a kind of performance. 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.119 Yeah. This example is just so it just nails it. 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.919 When you're a teacher and you see your student at 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.439 the grocery store, yeah, see him, ir L, that's like 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.399 that's just such a jarring thing to see as a kid. 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.240 Oh man, I think it's thrilling, it's exciting because they 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:27.760 don't exist outside of that role. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.320 No exactly. So now you see them and they're not 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.480 dressed like they normally are. Oh, they're friendly to your 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.560 mom or something like that. There, and then they're buying 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.000 olives too, and they look like they're really into the 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:41.600 figuring out which all ofs they want, right, So, yeah, 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.600 that's just for the kid. For the teacher, you still 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.439 have to comport yourself in a way that's like, you know, 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.760 I'm not going to just start cussing in front of 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.160 the student and just talk like I might normally talk. 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.800 I still have to pretend or act like I do 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.480 when I'm this kid's teacher. But that's still it's like 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.080 a it's it doesn't necessarily fit the grocery store stage, 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.920 so that teachers in a really weird position, right then, Yeah, 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:08.960 that would be off stage interactions. 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.400 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.280 I love that. One time for a break, Yes, all. 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.760 Right, we're just getting cooking, everybody, So come back more 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.240 if you want to learn more about yourself, right for. 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:41.840 This learning stuff from Josh Chimes stuff you shun all right. 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:46.320 So one of the keys to Goffman's theory is how 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.600 important it is to avoid being embarrassed or embarrassing others. 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.800 He talked about face work like saving face or losing face, 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.560 not wanting to be embarrassed, but also he wrote about 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.359 just the your facial expressions, especially in intern of how 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.680 you disagree with somebody, even if you say the words 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.760 that you think are the right way to disagree with someone, 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:11.480 but your face as WTF like that conveys a confusing message. 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.680 So even the facial expressions you make have to be considered. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:21.280 Yeah, it's that speech plus nonverbal that equals your performance, right, Yeah. Yeah, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.720 It's funny to see people who are trying to say 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.600 something but their facial expression just something matchup. 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.600 Yeah. I mean that's a problem I've had to work 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.600 on in my own marriage with not being the best communicator, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.159 which you know, which is Emily being like, well, you're 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.639 saying one thing, but that's not what I'm getting. 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.880 I'm right. Ah, yeah, No, I don't want to play 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:41.879 red dead redemption. 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.720 That's always true the opposite, that is right. 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.240 So the other point of that, in addition to that 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:53.000 nonverbal use of face, you said, also you're trying to 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.439 help people save face, right, So I said earlier that 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.800 you might be forced into a social to act in 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:01.960 a social situation a certain way just because you don't 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:03.680 want to freak out your friend's mom who you saw 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.520 at the mall by acting bizarrely or you know, in 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:10.199 a different way than you should. Similarly, if your friend's 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.480 mom at the mall falls like slips and falls in 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.120 the middle of the mall and is embarrassed, you are 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:20.520 going to do something that your performance calls for you 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.359 to do something to help her save face as well. 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:24.880 That's part of face work. 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:30.480 Too, Yeah, for sure. And face work is another dramatic term. 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:31.639 Oh is it? I didn't know that. 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:33.639 Yeah, I think face work and body work that's all 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:34.720