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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of Iheartradioy.

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Speaker 2: And welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck

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Speaker 2: and Jerry's here too, and we're putting on our best

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Speaker 2: faces in this episode of Stuff you.

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Speaker 1: Should Know right our front stage self.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking of stage check, I have a great

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Speaker 2: intro to this. I believe it was Rush who first

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Speaker 2: said all the world's is stage, and the men and

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Speaker 2: women on it are merely players or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, performers and portrayers. Yeah, each another's audience.

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Speaker 2: Is that what he says? I never knew, and I've

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Speaker 2: never bothered to look up the lyrics because there's definitely

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Speaker 2: some words in there. I'm like, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: Geddy Leek just said.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure that's right.

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Speaker 2: It's a great, great song, Limelight, very well written, what

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Speaker 2: very original stuff. Yeah, so we're talking about impression management today, right, Yes, sir,

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Speaker 2: And what do you think about it?

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Speaker 1: Well? I think that I just the more I've done

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Speaker 1: this show over the years, the more I realized that

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Speaker 1: I could have been a sociologist. Oh yeah, yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: this stuff fascinates me to no end. I took one

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Speaker 1: sociology class in college, and that's it. And I remember

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Speaker 1: at the time, you know, when very little outside of

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Speaker 1: English major classes interested me. I was like, man, this

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Speaker 1: is super interesting to me, but not enough to pursue it.

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Speaker 1: But human behaviors is endlessly fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And one of the things, sociology gets beat up

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Speaker 2: and edged out and elbowed in the face by psychology

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Speaker 2: a lot unfairly, I think too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not talking about social psychology, no, be clear, sociology.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And if sociology started out, we should say basically

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Speaker 2: examining massive institutions. It was macro sociology religion, like economics, politics,

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, and just how people behaved and

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Speaker 2: interacted or how people came together to form these institutions.

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Speaker 2: And then the guy we're going to talk about today

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Speaker 2: came along and he's like, let's kind of zoom in

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Speaker 2: a little more. And like you were saying, he kicked

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Speaker 2: off this this type of sociology that examines like people,

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Speaker 2: just interactions, very small interactions that sometimes we don't even

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Speaker 2: know what we're doing. And apparently you're very interested in that.

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Speaker 1: I am, And you know what, it seems like the

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Speaker 1: more I've learned about Irving Goffman through today's research, and

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Speaker 1: you know, researching him a little further. Like he's a

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Speaker 1: Canadian American sociologist, and this is like the mid twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties ish when he started doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: this work. He seems to me like someone who was

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Speaker 1: just fascinated by human behavior, even more even in a

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Speaker 1: way that like other sociologists weren't, especially at the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, he yeah, And he also I read

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Speaker 2: that he developed like a real sympathy for the people

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Speaker 2: who were pushed to the fringes of society unfairly, basically

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Speaker 2: across the board. So he was not only like a

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Speaker 2: really good sociologist and very intuitive, and apparently had a

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Speaker 2: really interesting writing style too. He loves a good like

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Speaker 2: turn of phrase. He was also like a very empathetic,

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Speaker 2: good person. That's what I can tell.

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Speaker 1: Oh, man, I'm so glad I didn't hook my wagon do.

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Speaker 2: The wrong dude, right, But no, you hooked his to

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Speaker 2: the right guy.

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Speaker 1: And when it's somebody from the nineteen fifties, you never

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen there. We should probably say

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Speaker 1: we're talking about though, impression management or self presentation or

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Speaker 1: perception management is basically these are terms that he all

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Speaker 1: came up. He came up with all of these essentially,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's just how you present to others. And

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll get into the nuts and bolts of it.

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Speaker 1: But how much you might think about that, how much

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Speaker 1: is automatic, how much is intuition, how much of it

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Speaker 1: is authenticity. It's super fascinating to me. I just I

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Speaker 1: love this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of it. I mean, when we

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Speaker 2: start talking about it too, it'll just seem very common sense, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: of course you're going to you know, mind your p's

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Speaker 2: and cues and sit up straight and be friendly in

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Speaker 2: a job interview. And that is a type of impression management.

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Speaker 2: But it is way more granular than that, to the

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Speaker 2: point where like, if you're into language linguistics that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing, the entire purpose of a conversation is to

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Speaker 2: exchange information like I know this now I'm sharing it

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Speaker 2: with you. The other person says, thank you very much,

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Speaker 2: And that's what a conversations for as far as impression

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Speaker 2: management goes. And Irvin Goffman and his Milk conversations are

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Speaker 2: essentially performances that two people share and do for one another.

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Speaker 2: That helps create a version of ourselves that we kind

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Speaker 2: of walk around with, and that that changes. And there's

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Speaker 2: very little point to a conversation other than that it's

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Speaker 2: a radically different view of things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think it's interesting, and this is you know,

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Speaker 1: this is all just precursor stuff that we're babbling on about.

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Speaker 1: But when you said it just seems like instinct or whatever,

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Speaker 1: would you say, common sense to do these things? Not everybody,

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Speaker 1: my friend, And that is something that I've gotten better

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Speaker 1: about over the years. It used to be something that

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Speaker 1: really bothered me, and I would you know, leave an

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Speaker 1: interaction with somebody or something and with Emily and be

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Speaker 1: like god, like just social cluelessness is such a turn

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Speaker 1: off for me, like read the room, buddy, that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. But then the more I've gotten older and

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Speaker 1: the more we've all learned about different neurodiversities, I've definitely

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Speaker 1: found myself in a place where i'd try to be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what this person's deal is, Like they

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Speaker 1: may be struggling just to present themselves as you know,

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Speaker 1: passing or masking, and you know, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about all this stuff in a situation just to sort

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Speaker 1: of get by. So I try to really keep that

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Speaker 1: stuff in mind these days.

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Speaker 2: For sure. And I feel like there's different tranches. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's the one you just describe. There's people who this

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Speaker 2: is so effortless too, they don't even have to think

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Speaker 2: about it, and they're just great basically across the board.

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Speaker 2: Then there's everybody else in the middle. Some people in

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Speaker 2: the middle are better at it than others. Some people

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Speaker 2: think too hard about it and they become obvious and

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Speaker 2: clumsy and essentially though no one can escape it, I

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Speaker 2: think is my point. There's nobody out there who doesn't

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Speaker 2: engage in some sort of impression management essentially their entire lives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and neurodiversity society again, which we'll talk about. There

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Speaker 1: are also people who aren't neurodiversity who were just glueless

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Speaker 1: a holes. And I have found too in my life

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Speaker 1: that I believe narcissism plays a part. I think narcissists

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Speaker 1: have a much harder time because they're generally just have

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Speaker 1: their heads up, their own buttson or so about the

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Speaker 1: self that they are off. And the ones that I found,

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Speaker 1: if they don't have some sort of you know, nerdivergence.

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Speaker 1: That's the reason why they are like they are, maybe

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Speaker 1: because of narcissism, because you know, usually the reply after

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Speaker 1: someone is like read the room, buddy, they're like, what.

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Speaker 2: What, I'm perfect, what do you mean read the room?

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Speaker 2: You read the room exactly. So let's get into it

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Speaker 2: and we'll start with Goffman and where he got his

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Speaker 2: start again, this is Irving Goffman, groundbreaking sociologist. He started

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Speaker 2: off doing field work in a Scottish village and rather

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Speaker 2: than figuring out how the city council worked for that

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Speaker 2: or the village elders basically kept everybody in line, he

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Speaker 2: just ameshed himself in the village and just paid attention

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Speaker 2: to how people interacted with one another. And really like,

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Speaker 2: that's a very anthropological way of studying. Is very not

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Speaker 2: how they did it at the time among sociologists. So

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Speaker 2: here's groundbreaking. He essentially went like, I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: this field and just put it, take it in a

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Speaker 2: different direction. So let's go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. He wrote a book in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: six called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life. What

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Speaker 1: a great title, No Colon's it's exactly what it says.

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Speaker 1: It is a very big book in the world of sociology,

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Speaker 1: and the International Sociological Association named it as a tenth

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Speaker 1: most important sociology book of the twentieth century. And in

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Speaker 1: this book is where he touched on what you talked

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Speaker 1: about with this sort of performance aspect of our everyday

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Speaker 1: lives with He didn't invent it, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: an existing concept, but dramaturgical theory, which is what you said,

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Speaker 1: like we're all sort of operating on a social script,

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Speaker 1: sort of like the terminator, Like it's pretty limited. You

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Speaker 1: don't have endless options, like maybe you should say one

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Speaker 1: of these four things at this dinner party when someone

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Speaker 1: brings up a thing. And even if it's a brand

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Speaker 1: news situation, you're drawing on the scripts that you've used

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Speaker 1: over and over in your life to work out how

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Speaker 1: to inner act in the scene.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, And it's also, yeah, it's been shaped by

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Speaker 2: interactions with other people. It's shaped by what you've seen

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Speaker 2: on TV, which can be very dangerous because stuff that's

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Speaker 2: like hilarious on a sitcom does not necessarily translate well

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Speaker 2: into real life. It's like you're being a huge jerk

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Speaker 2: or you're not really that funny. You know, in the

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Speaker 2: case of somebody who models themselves after friends.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like, pull my finger doesn't always break the ice.

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Speaker 2: No, pull my finger always works. Okay, great, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: so what his point was in the dramaturgical theory, And

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Speaker 2: like you said, he didn't invent it, but if you

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Speaker 2: if you look into it, he's basically like he's the

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Speaker 2: guy who took it and ran with it. Yeah, no

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Speaker 2: matter where you are, you're performing, and depending on where

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Speaker 2: you are you're going, your performance is going to be different. Right,

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Speaker 2: So if you're sitting there at school, you're gonna act

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Speaker 2: different than you do at a bar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, sure, ideally, yeah, you wo hope for sure.

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Speaker 2: And then if you're at work, you know you're going

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Speaker 2: to act a little different from that too. And it's

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Speaker 2: essentially even when you're hanging out with your closest friends,

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Speaker 2: sociologists believe that you're still performing in some way, shape

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Speaker 2: or form, just probably less than you normally do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and some think even when you're by yourself that

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Speaker 1: that still informs how you talk to your little person

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Speaker 1: on your shoulder, right, which is really interesting. He talked

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Speaker 1: about appearance and like clothing even and how they will convey.

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Speaker 1: And when we say actor, we're just talking about a person,

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Speaker 1: but in his context of it all being a performance,

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Speaker 1: he'd called them actors. But you know, your your costume

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Speaker 1: that you put on is going to convey like maybe

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Speaker 1: your social status, maybe what kind of job you have.

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Speaker 1: There's you know, there's that outward appearance, and then there's

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Speaker 1: the manner in which you deal with someone. And obeying

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Speaker 1: the sort of societal rules in a social situation is

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Speaker 1: a big time thing. And if you start to do

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Speaker 1: things that don't comply with what people generally expect in

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Speaker 1: you know, at a dinner party or on an elevator

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Speaker 1: or something like that, it can upset people around you.

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Speaker 1: I think the interesting thing that I took from that is,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of common sense, but when you're writing,

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Speaker 1: like a screenplay or something like dramatic writing or a play,

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Speaker 1: the most interesting characters are usually people that do things

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Speaker 1: that surprise you, or that fly in the face of

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Speaker 1: maybe a social norm, or make a decision that's unexpected.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting that in drama it makes

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Speaker 1: for very compelling characters, but in real life we kind

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Speaker 1: of don't want that generally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like the Manic Pixie dream Girl.

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Speaker 1: Right, I don't know what you mean by that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know what that term means, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: how it relates to this.

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Speaker 2: Oh they're always doing like crazy stuff that like makes

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Speaker 2: the protagon or fall in love with them or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotcha. So in terms of a script,

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Speaker 1: that might be engaging even within the world of the script,

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Speaker 1: whereas in real life, I don't know, a man at

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Speaker 1: Pixie dream Girl might go over, but the person saying

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Speaker 1: pull my finger the dinner party may not.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's funny that you say drama too, because to me,

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Speaker 2: where in my mind was comedy, Like almost all comedy

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Speaker 2: is a person behaving in a way that is violates

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Speaker 2: the situation that they're in, violates the scene and the

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Speaker 2: script that they're supposed to be saying. That's all from

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Speaker 2: Adam Sandler to late Adam Sandler, right, it's all basically that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's the basis of joke telling. Really

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Speaker 1: is the unexpected thing happens super interesting.

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Speaker 2: And then one other thing too. He made a really

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Speaker 2: good point. He said that the characters or the people

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Speaker 2: who are interacting and again just essentially performing that they're

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Speaker 2: trying to come to a common definition of the situation

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Speaker 2: is what he called it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that expected norm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so like if you see, say, a scene

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Speaker 2: on TV, it's just such a perfect analogy because that's

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Speaker 2: essentially what he's talking about. And there's just one dude

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Speaker 2: standing at a bus stop and it's a businessman. Say

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Speaker 2: that scene is in a superposition. It hasn't been defined

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Speaker 2: yet because there's only one person, and by the entrance

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Speaker 2: of the next person, that's when the scene will start

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Speaker 2: to be defined. If it's that guy's boss, he's gonna

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Speaker 2: act totally different than if it's a pickpocket or something

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Speaker 2: like that. So the scene hasn't been defined yet. But

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Speaker 2: regardless of how it ends up, like what scene it is,

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Speaker 2: both are playing their role essentially that we just innately

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Speaker 2: know almost not innately because it's learned, but it becomes

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Speaker 2: just second nature for most people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. He also thought that, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: obviously verbal and nonverbal parts to this, with body language

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Speaker 1: and how you dress and all that stuff. But Goffman

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Speaker 1: himself thought that the non verbal part did I say

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Speaker 1: non purple?

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Speaker 2: If you did? It was lost on me. But I

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Speaker 2: like non purple more Okay.

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Speaker 1: I think I might have said non purple anyway, which

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Speaker 1: is basically every other color but purple. Yeah. He thought

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Speaker 1: the non verbal part was the most significant because it's

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Speaker 1: harder to fake, which I think is pretty interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah for sure.

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Speaker 1: And that also, like, while you're performing quote unquote again,

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Speaker 1: do we need to keep saying that, like people know

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Speaker 1: what you mean?

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean we could just say interacting with

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Speaker 2: another person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, while you're interacting as the actor, right, you may

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Speaker 1: be aware that you have like a goal in mind,

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Speaker 1: like I got a you know, I met this thing,

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Speaker 1: I got a present really well, or you may not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you may not have a goal. It may be,

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Speaker 2: as we'll see, you're just trying to keep from freaking

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Speaker 2: the other person out, you know, like you're not trying

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Speaker 2: to get anywhere. You're not trying to advance or get

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Speaker 2: something from the person or make somebody think that you're great,

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Speaker 2: but just being engaged, forced into a social interaction like

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Speaker 2: that you have to perform a certain way or else

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Speaker 2: the other person is going to be weirded out, is

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Speaker 2: going to want to get away from you. Sometimes people

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Speaker 2: get really upset when somebody violates norms. And I think

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Speaker 2: you can, really you can. This explains it a lot,

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Speaker 2: because it's like someone is expecting somebody to behave in

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Speaker 2: a certain way. That person purposefully doesn't behave in that way.

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Speaker 2: Then the people around them might get angry at that person,

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Speaker 2: even though they might just be being themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or get scared. Like you know, when you get

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Speaker 1: on an elevator by yourself and there's only one person

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Speaker 1: on there, you act in a certain way as an

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Speaker 1: almost way to say you're safe right now. You don't

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Speaker 1: need to worry about me. I'm just going to my room.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not that guy that's going to

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Speaker 1: be some weirdo on the elevator. I promise you're okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or even like try to strike up a conversation

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Speaker 2: like that that's unnerving and disarming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think definitely not as much for

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Speaker 1: me as for some people. Because I was raised in

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Speaker 1: the South, I'm more used to that. And definitely also

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Speaker 1: in an enclosed space like an elevator, the norms are

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Speaker 1: much different than like walking down the street or something.

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Speaker 1: For sure, you know you're trapped basically in that little.

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Speaker 2: Box, right, Yeah, you have a captive audience.

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Speaker 1: And now I'm panicking.

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Speaker 2: So, just to kind of wrap up the whole dramaturgical

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Speaker 2: theory part, Goffman said, we have our front stage selves,

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Speaker 2: which I think you referred to earlier.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's us right now, and that's what we do

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Speaker 1: on our job every day.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, but I feel like we're not that much

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Speaker 2: different in real life. No.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. I mean, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons this show works, I think, and why a lot

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Speaker 1: of podcasts work is because people are their more true selves.

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Speaker 1: But it's also sort of the best version of our

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Speaker 1: true selves, Like we're not the jerks that we can

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Speaker 1: be in real life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a really great point that we'll see later. Like,

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Speaker 2: just because you're doing this doesn't mean you're a phony

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Speaker 2: or inauthentic. You're just drawing on the parts of yourself

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Speaker 2: that are already there that apply to the situation best

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Speaker 2: in presenting those.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And I said we I meant me you're

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Speaker 1: not a jerk. And so I'm just speaking for myself.

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Speaker 2: Hey man, I'm always happy to be included with you.

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Speaker 2: I'm along for the ride.

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Speaker 1: Well, everybody compete like that here and there. That's all

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, right right, I know what you're saying. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to explain it to me, all right, I

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Speaker 1: was explaining to everyone else. Didn't think I was just

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Speaker 1: dragging you down with me.

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Speaker 2: So you've got front stage selves. This is when you're

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Speaker 2: you're on stage, you're really out there. There's backstage when

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Speaker 2: you're hanging with your homies. Yeah, homeboys, homegirls, Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: and just general homies, maybe your family. If you get

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Speaker 2: along with your family, and you might feel comfortable and

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Speaker 2: calm around them, So that would be your backstage self.

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Speaker 2: But note this, he's not saying front stage self, and

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Speaker 2: then yourself, it's still a backstage self. You're still attached

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Speaker 2: to the stage. You're still in the theater. Yeah, even

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Speaker 2: when you're hanging out with your homies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. And then there's the off stage, and

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Speaker 1: that's when it's just one on one this is the best,

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Speaker 1: and that's still a kind of performance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. This example is just so it just nails it.

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Speaker 2: When you're a teacher and you see your student at

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Speaker 2: the grocery store, yeah, see him, ir L, that's like

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Speaker 2: that's just such a jarring thing to see as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, I think it's thrilling, it's exciting because they

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Speaker 1: don't exist outside of that role.

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Speaker 2: No exactly. So now you see them and they're not

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Speaker 2: dressed like they normally are. Oh, they're friendly to your

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Speaker 2: mom or something like that. There, and then they're buying

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Speaker 2: olives too, and they look like they're really into the

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Speaker 2: figuring out which all ofs they want, right, So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's just for the kid. For the teacher, you still

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Speaker 2: have to comport yourself in a way that's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to just start cussing in front of

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Speaker 2: the student and just talk like I might normally talk.

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Speaker 2: I still have to pretend or act like I do

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Speaker 2: when I'm this kid's teacher. But that's still it's like

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Speaker 2: a it's it doesn't necessarily fit the grocery store stage,

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Speaker 2: so that teachers in a really weird position, right then, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that would be off stage interactions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: I love that. One time for a break, Yes, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, we're just getting cooking, everybody, So come back more

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Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about yourself, right for.

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Speaker 2: This learning stuff from Josh Chimes stuff you shun all right.

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Speaker 1: So one of the keys to Goffman's theory is how

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Speaker 1: important it is to avoid being embarrassed or embarrassing others.

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Speaker 1: He talked about face work like saving face or losing face,

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Speaker 1: not wanting to be embarrassed, but also he wrote about

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Speaker 1: just the your facial expressions, especially in intern of how

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Speaker 1: you disagree with somebody, even if you say the words

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Speaker 1: that you think are the right way to disagree with someone,

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Speaker 1: but your face as WTF like that conveys a confusing message.

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Speaker 1: So even the facial expressions you make have to be considered.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that speech plus nonverbal that equals your performance, right, Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: It's funny to see people who are trying to say

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Speaker 2: something but their facial expression just something matchup.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that's a problem I've had to work

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Speaker 1: on in my own marriage with not being the best communicator,

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Speaker 1: which you know, which is Emily being like, well, you're

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Speaker 1: saying one thing, but that's not what I'm getting.

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Speaker 2: I'm right. Ah, yeah, No, I don't want to play

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Speaker 2: red dead redemption.

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Speaker 1: That's always true the opposite, that is right.

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Speaker 2: So the other point of that, in addition to that

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Speaker 2: nonverbal use of face, you said, also you're trying to

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Speaker 2: help people save face, right, So I said earlier that

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Speaker 2: you might be forced into a social to act in

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Speaker 2: a social situation a certain way just because you don't

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Speaker 2: want to freak out your friend's mom who you saw

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Speaker 2: at the mall by acting bizarrely or you know, in

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Speaker 2: a different way than you should. Similarly, if your friend's

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Speaker 2: mom at the mall falls like slips and falls in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the mall and is embarrassed, you are

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Speaker 2: going to do something that your performance calls for you

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Speaker 2: to do something to help her save face as well.

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Speaker 2: That's part of face work.

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Speaker 1: Too, Yeah, for sure. And face work is another dramatic term.

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Speaker 2: Oh is it? I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think face work and body work that's all

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Speaker 1: a drama thing.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense. Is there a thing how to move.

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Speaker 1: Within your space? Yeah, private parts work, so to Goffman,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it could be an obvious thing, like

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Speaker 1: if you're you know, on a first date or something

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Speaker 1: like that, or like you mentioned earlier job interview, like

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Speaker 1: that's the super obvious situation, but a lot a lot

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Speaker 1: of times it's you know, it's really everyday interactions still count.

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Speaker 1: H And there's a philosopher name Lucy McDonald who was

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Speaker 1: writing about like when somebody falls down in public, almost always,

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Speaker 1: the very first thing that will happen is that person

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Speaker 1: will look around to see if anyone saw them, and

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Speaker 1: based on that, it's going to change their reaction. And

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Speaker 1: it reminded me of that story up told before about

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Speaker 1: in college when I saw the guy bust bust his

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Speaker 1: butt on a bike in Athens and the books went

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Speaker 1: spilling all over the sidewalk, and this dude just opened

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Speaker 1: one of the books, laying on his side with his

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Speaker 1: bike will spinning, act like he was reading it. And

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Speaker 1: It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. And

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Speaker 1: then the other day, on my new bike, I tried

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Speaker 1: to do a wheel slide in a gravel parking lot

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Speaker 1: and I busted my butt and fell. I didn't go,

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Speaker 1: you know, ass over apple cart, but I hit the dirt.

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Speaker 1: And the first thing I did, as a fifty four

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Speaker 1: year old was look up and see if anybody saw me.

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Speaker 2: You didn't jump up and say I meant to do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, if somebody had been had seen me, I would have,

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Speaker 1: but nobody saw me, so I just sat there and

430
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 1: was like, no one nuts.

431
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: Right, So if you do that, like say, if people

432
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 2: do see you, you might like look back, like closely

433
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 2: at the ground, like what did I strung over?

434
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: What's wrong with this bike?

435
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 2: Or you might say like I hate Mondays or something

436
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: like that. And what you're doing is something you mentioned earlier.

437
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 2: You're reassuring people like I'm not a threat to you

438
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: or to the social order. That was just a total accident. Yeah,

439
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 2: And it might seem like that person is overly self

440
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: conscious or something like that, or they might be a

441
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: little neurotic. I feel like they have to do that, Yeah,

442
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: But the philosopher Lucy McDonald that you mentioned also points

443
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 2: out that that's actually not what's going on. That everybody

444
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: feels like they need to do that, and that it's

445
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 2: a rational response to the social expectations that we have

446
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: of one another. So it just kind of reveals this

447
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: social intelligence that most people have that is you don't

448
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: even know that you're doing in a lot of cases,

449
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: and that you feel even compelled to do internally. Like

450
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: when I do that, if I'm so embarrassed, I will

451
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 2: blurt something out like oops, or I hate Mondays, and

452
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 2: it feels like it's coming up from you know, my

453
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 2: guy yea, and then out of my mouth like it's

454
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 2: not something where I'm like, I better say something really quick,

455
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: just an involuntary reaction essentially, because it's so ingrained.

456
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're not a sociopath.

457
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like to think so.

458
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like to think so too. It's funny thinking

459
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: about that guy in Athens it fell. He didn't even

460
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: look around because it wasn't like, oh did someone see me?

461
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: Because hundreds of people for sure saw him.

462
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 2: Right.

463
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: It was like a crowded campus. So I felt bad

464
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: for the guy, but it was hysterical. And one day

465
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna meet that person, I think.

466
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder what he's doing now.

467
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: Can you imagine if I was at a party one

468
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: day and somebody was telling that story, like one time

469
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: in college, I wrecked my bike, and after I was reading.

470
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: A book, what would you do? Would you buy him something?

471
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: I would hug him immediately and be like I saw that,

472
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: and I've been telling that story for forty years.

473
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 2: That's great.

474
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 1: Forty No, not even thirty.

475
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, thirty's about right. Yeah, and you would be like,

476
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: I'm not a hugger.

477
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, then I've screwed up yet again. Uh.

478
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 2: So I said that when people fall in there, they're

479
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: saying like oops, or I hate mondays, they're looking at

480
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: the crack or they're going through their book whatever. They're

481
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: reassuring people that that they're actually normal. And the norm

482
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 2: in countries like the US, say in the West, is

483
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: what's called civil and attention to where you ideally you

484
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 2: acknowledge the presence the existence of another person so that

485
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: you're you're on a subway with and then yeah it

486
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 2: ends there. Right. Something that I find dismaying is I

487
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: see more and more that acknowledgment doesn't even happen. It's

488
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: just totally ignoring one another. And that, man, that gets me,

489
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 2: especially if you not at somebody else and they just

490
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: ignore you. I think that is awful.

491
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean not to be old man here, but

492
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: cell phones and smartphones have definitely played a part in that,

493
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: I think because people escape into the comfort of like, well,

494
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: I'll just look at this instead.

495
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and they're just like, oh, what's on my phone?

496
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, if you were raised in the South

497
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: or have lived in the South, then you're more comfortable

498
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: with more acknowledgment and maybe even a brief conversation with

499
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: a stranger. Sure, that can be very off putting for

500
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: people that aren't used to that. So I try to

501
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: remember that when I am going to maybe have had

502
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: a drink or two and I struck up a conversation.

503
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: With someone I don't know on an elevator.

504
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: I've done that too. I did it last week in fact.

505
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 2: So speaking of elevators, Chuck, you've mentioned going into an

506
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: elevator and turning around, and what a violation of the

507
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 2: social order that is the elevator Is this perfect little

508
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: encapsulation for sociolists, no man to study, because we just

509
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: know what to do. When somebody gets on an elevator

510
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 2: and there's already people on there, everybody spreads out, rearranges

511
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,719
Speaker 2: himself to make room for this person in their personal space.

512
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: And it's not like we're like, Okay, I'm going to

513
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 2: go over here. You go here, and then when somebody

514
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: the next person comes on, you get off, and then

515
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: this person's going to go where you were. It just happens,

516
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: and it's a beautiful synchronized effort, right.

517
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: It really is.

518
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: But when sociologists get on elevators and they turn around,

519
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 2: there's apocryphal story about Irvin Goffman doing that and studying

520
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: and people just flipping out by it.

521
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: Now they don't turn around. They just go straight in

522
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: and stand there looking at the rear.

523
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, exactly, Yeah right, not well put So that's

524
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: actually not just what sociologists like to do. It was

525
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: like a big one on Candid Camera back in the

526
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: day for a while. Yeah, and there was one Candid

527
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: Camera episode where they did the opposite where the elevator

528
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 2: was already had a bunch of people on it, but

529
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: they were facing the rear when the door's opened and

530
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 2: the person who was being I guess pranked came on.

531
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't get on that elevator car.

532
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: So this person they got on, and they kind of

533
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: looked like they didn't know what to do for a second,

534
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 2: and then they turned and they faced.

535
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: I knew it. Wow, that's incredible.

536
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was almost like they thought that they hadn't

537
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: gotten the revised pages that day and everybody else did,

538
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: so they just needed to go along with it because

539
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: they didn't want to upset the apple cart. Things had changed.

540
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 2: This is not what they expected, but they weren't about

541
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: to be the one who just stuck to the original

542
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: Norman upset everybody else.

543
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: Wow did they yell out, can I have the new sides.

544
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: Please take someone to fly those in line. That's really

545
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: funny and that doesn't surprise me. And I bet the

546
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: live audience at Cannon Cambridge just got a big old hoo.

547
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: Do you laugh on that?

548
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: One man?

549
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: So there was a guy named Harold Garfinkel and others

550
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: socioists that would I mean, he called them breaching experiments,

551
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: but it's really messing with people. And he did things

552
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: like that like sit down on the escalator or just

553
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: like point at somebody. And I'm not a big fan

554
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: of those kind of experiments.

555
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: No, but they're all over YouTube people doing that. I

556
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: bet it's pretty funny. But yeah, if you're ever in

557
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: a mall and somebody sits down on an escalator or whatever,

558
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: it's probably a sociologist. Yeah.

559
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: If not just politely go in any other direction.

560
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: Well no, that's why you carry a water gun around

561
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: with you. You just scored them in the house a

562
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: few times and say stand.

563
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: Up, super soaker.

564
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: So there's ways that we figure out how to perform because,

565
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: like I said, a lot of it just seems ingrained.

566
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: A lot of it requires thought too, especially if you're

567
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: trying if you have a goal, like you're trying to

568
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: become a member of a country club, which everybody's been

569
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 2: through that, yeah, Yeah. And these two researchers, they were

570
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: psychologists back in nineteen ninety nineteen ninety, Mark Leary and

571
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: Robin Kowalski. They basically figured out how we do this

572
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, and they broke it into two things.

573
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: There was impression motivation, why you're doing this? An impression

574
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: construction how you're doing this?

575
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And as far as motivation, it's based on a

576
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: few factors. One is how relevant a person thinks their

577
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: images to achieve this goal. So, in other words, does

578
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: it really matter here how I'm acting to get what

579
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: I want? How valuable the goal is, which is do

580
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: I this is something I really want? Am I trying

581
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: to get a job or just whatever? Something a little

582
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: less stakes? And then finally, the extent to which they

583
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: believe they're not currently being perceived in the most useful way.

584
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: In other words, how much do I need to pour

585
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: it on here to get what I want?

586
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

587
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: Like, how am I being perceived? And what do I

588
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: need to do to change that?

589
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: Right? Exactly? So you put all those together and that's

590
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: your motivation for figuring out some impression management. Again, This

591
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: is the ones where you're like actually giving thought to it, right,

592
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: Impression construction, how you actually care this stuff out. They

593
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: broke into five little parts. One is your self concept, right,

594
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 2: So you're going to base how you carry this out

595
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 2: on how you feel you are. So you're trying you're

596
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: starting with your authentic self ideally, right, because people value authenticity.

597
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: People don't want to just keep up a lie. Again,

598
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: that's a half hour sitcom right there, because it always crumbles.

599
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 2: It always crumbles everybody in real life and on sitcoms.

600
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: In twenty two minutes and then it gets resolved.

601
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: Right exactly. So your self concept is where you're going

602
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: to start, and you're going to kind of draw from that.

603
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: Imagine a big steamer trunk on stage that carrot tops

604
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,959
Speaker 2: going through, just pulling a bunch of props out of.

605
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: That's what you're doing when you first start to figure

606
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: this out. That's going through the steamer trunk of your

607
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: self concept.

608
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, are you saying right now we are

609
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: a carrot.

610
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: The entire world is yeah, all the world to stage,

611
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: and we are merely carot carrot tops.

612
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: Then there's the desired identity. So you're trying to protect

613
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: an identity, and you base that on what like what

614
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: you what you want people to think you like and

615
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: don't like, or what you want to be or don't

616
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: want to.

617
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: Be, right, So you might really try to distance yourself

618
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: from something you don't want to identify with.

619
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, oh boy, how about that John Legend that

620
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: was random and all that immense talent, Like, get over it, buddy.

621
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: You want to be very careful with this. This is

622
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: one of those things that shows what a tightrope you

623
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: can be walking when you're purposefully constructing impression management. If

624
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: you're in that case yucking someone's yam, that can turn

625
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: people off and ruin all of the other stuff that

626
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: you just did. So it can backfire.

627
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: Someone opens up their jacket and they're wearing the John Legend.

628
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: Right, or you accidentally say it to John Legend because

629
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: you didn't recognize him.

630
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know why I pulled him out. I

631
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: know nothing much about him other than La La land

632
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: in the fact that he's super talented.

633
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he was perfect, I mean totally neutral. Everybody

634
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 2: loves him like it was just that was great, non

635
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: controversial in almost any way. Yeah, right, he's managed to

636
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: distance himself from his wife's public persona. So yeah, non controversial.

637
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: Who is she Chrissy Teagan?

638
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: Oh? I know that name, but I don't know much

639
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: about her either.

640
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: That's fine, all right, moving on. Yeah, So the next

641
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: one is target value, and it's basically saying, like, you're

642
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: just going to take those things from your steamer trunk

643
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: of your authentic self and you're going to adorn yourself

644
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: with the ones that make the most sense for this

645
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: identity that you're trying to be viewed with.

646
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, but based on what you think they want, right.

647
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, But again, this is not where you're just like,

648
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 2: you know, stealing stuff from other people and making it

649
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: your own. You're going ideally, you're going into your own

650
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: authentic self and saying this one makes the most sense

651
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 2: to what this person's going to expect or want.

652
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Like aligning yourself with someone else's value is

653
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: ideally stopping short of, like, you know, doing something that's

654
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: not an authentic Yeah.

655
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: And there's one thing I think we should say at

656
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: this point, because it's really easy to just assume like

657
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: this is what everybody should be doing, and I think

658
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: it's worth questioning. It's not inherently a good thing to

659
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: change yourself or to rearrange yourself. It can be a

660
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: bad thing, but it can also be a good thing too.

661
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: So just know, we're not saying like you should be

662
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: out doing Yeah, it should really be thinking about what

663
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: you have inside yourself that you can impress other people with.

664
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: That's not what we're saying. But people do do that,

665
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: and that's falls under the umbrella of impression management.

666
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're saying, this is what Leary and Kowalski have

667
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: noticed happens.

668
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, blame it on them and the rain.

669
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: And then there's current Oh I'm sorry, I skipped one,

670
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 1: didn't I roll constraints presenting yourself in a way that's well,

671
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: that's kind of the same thing as target value, except

672
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: target values a little less that I want to align

673
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: myself with what you may be into, yeah, and a

674
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: little more of just like the general expectations of a social.

675
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: Role, right, Like you would wear a top hat in

676
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 2: a monocle to a meeting with a bunch of bankers

677
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 2: because that's what they would expect.

678
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: You to do, exactly.

679
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: And then there's current social image, which is what you

680
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: perceive of yourself and if other people, if you think

681
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: other people perceive you in a way you don't like.

682
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are some other techniques that they've you know

683
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: that people can use flattery, of course, we'll get you everywhere, ingratiation,

684
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Conforming to expectations. That's kind of like

685
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, the other stuff I think, like role constraints

686
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And then a big one is

687
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: like suppressing your emotion and maintaining your self control. Like again,

688
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean to be anauthentic, but that just means like,

689
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: read the room. Is it time for me to be

690
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: overly emotional about something or is it not? Do I

691
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: need to kind of put a little net for now?

692
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're triggered and you have a temper because

693
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 2: people are taking too long in the grocery store line,

694
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 2: don't push a whole load of groceries back into an

695
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 2: aisle and shout a curse word and storm out. Oh

696
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: I've seen it in real life. Actually, Oh I'm sure. Yeah,

697
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: it's like what is going on? Buddy?

698
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: It's hard to not think just constantly what's wrong with people?

699
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: But you know what the fact is, again, as I

700
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: get older, there's a lot wrong with a lot of people.

701
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: So I try to keep that in mind.

702
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody's got some sort of burden they're carrying, and

703
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: some people are more vocal about it than others. I

704
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: guess that's a very nice way to say some people

705
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: misproject it in the wrong way more loudly than others.

706
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: That's another way to say it.

707
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: There's also one called basking and reflect a glory, which

708
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: is basically like hanging out with somebody who's a great

709
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: example of the kind of self you want to be

710
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: identified as. Yeah, not necessarily good. It's much better to

711
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: blaze your own trail, make your own version. But I

712
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: kind of I get it. The one that's just not

713
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 2: good at all is the downward comparison, which is putting

714
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 2: someone down to show that you're not like them at all.

715
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not a good thing to do. And again,

716
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: all of this convey Like, to convey all this stuff,

717
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: you got to have a pretty good cognitive empathy and

718
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: pretty good self monitoring. You got to be able to

719
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: read the room, read social cues, regulate your emotions. And again,

720
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: I think this is why people with like a narcissistic

721
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: personality disorder may have a harder time, may have more

722
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: difficulty doing stuff like this for sure, another break.

723
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: Have forty minutes in, let's take our second break.

724
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be back. This is going to be

725
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: a little beefy, guys, but we're into it, you.

726
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, So just real quick before we keep going on,

727
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: it's worth mentioning that forming an online identity is essentially

728
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 2: it's like a whole new can of worms. Yeah, as

729
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 2: far as sociology is concerned, we just couldn't do it before,

730
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: and it allows you to do things, try on new

731
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: things and ways that we it was just impossible to previously.

732
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But that yeah, that's that could be

733
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: a shorty or something on its own.

734
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 2: Huh h for sure.

735
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 1: Should we talk about authenticity though a little.

736
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: More, Yeah, because again this is everybody wants to be

737
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: viewed as authentic, and just the fact that you've realized

738
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: now that you're performing at all times can make you

739
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: feel like you're not authentic. But we're here to tell

740
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: you you're still authentic.

741
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. There have been researchers that, I mean,

742
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: it kind of depends you can there are a lot

743
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: of ways to I don't like saying skin a cat anymore.

744
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: To tackle the cat. Now, there's a lot of ways

745
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: to pet the cat.

746
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: We're not saying skin the cat anymore.

747
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it just occurred to me.

748
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: That's a pretty horrific thing to think about.

749
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know where that came from, but sure either,

750
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: I guess I can get on board with that.

751
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: All right, there's a lot of ways to pet a cat.

752
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: Actually there's only one way, and that's with the grain.

753
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: But anyway, how about skin your knee? Sure, there's a

754
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: lot of ways to skin your knee, Like fifty four

755
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 1: year old wrecking is new BMX bike exactly. Some people

756
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: say there's a real distinct distinction between self presentation, which

757
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: is like the influence that you're feeling by pressure and

758
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: the effort that you're putting out, and then self expression,

759
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: which is your authentic self. But there are psychologists or

760
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, yeah, I guess psychologists in this case a

761
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 1: guy named Barry R. Schlinker, who says that actually self

762
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: presentation is everyone does it in all social interactions, like

763
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: even if you're married, you're influencing each other and behaving

764
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: in a certain way. It may not even require like attention,

765
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: and probably doesn't if you're married, but it doesn't mean

766
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: you're being an authentic if you're still doing that kind

767
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: of within your marriage.

768
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: No, and even like within yourself, Like when we did

769
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: the Inner Dialogue episode, we talked at some point about

770
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: how even when you're talking to yourself, that inner voice

771
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 2: is often shaped by external forces. And some sociologists say, yeah,

772
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: even it goes even that far. That's how far the

773
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: self is shaped by these scripts and these performances and everything,

774
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 2: that even when you're alone, you still might find yourself

775
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: engaging in some performance or another.

776
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the stuff that we feel like is automatic

777
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: and you kind of touched on this earlier is maybe

778
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: not automatic. You may not even realize that this is

779
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: stuff that you've been practicing your whole life. I think

780
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: anyone who's ever had a kid has seen that kid

781
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: like practicing faces in the mirror. There's some I mean

782
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: a very tropy movie scene is someone who practices a

783
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: scene in the mirror of like interacting with someone like, oh,

784
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: let me get that chair for you, and practicing a smile.

785
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: I mean, Nathan Fielder has a whole show about this

786
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: called The Rehearsal. It's fascinating.

787
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that guy.

788
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: Are you watching the new season yet.

789
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: No, no, is that the one that's an actual like

790
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 2: it's fiction?

791
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: No? No, no, that was the one he did with

792
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: Emma Stone. This is the rehearsal season two, which is

793
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: he sets up these elaborate rehearsals for everyday live stuff. Okay,

794
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: you should check out season one and then just steamroll

795
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: into season two. It's fascinating sociological stuff.

796
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: Nice. I definitely will. Yeah, do you ever rehearse what

797
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: you're going to say? I know you rehearse like what

798
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: you're doing next, like if you're cooking something, You've said that, right,

799
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: But do you ever like practice in your head what

800
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: you're going to say, like even mundane stuff like what

801
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 2: am I going to say to this venience store clerk

802
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: when I go to check out?

803
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: Now, all that stuff is pretty innate for me.

804
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: That's very lucky.

805
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: But again, maybe innate from years and years of practice.

806
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's possible, or maybe you were just born with it.

807
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: Maybe it's maybe Lane. So you mentioned the automatic stuff

808
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: that is essentially breathing, Like if you look at how

809
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: it's how Schlinker describes it. He's describing the same thing

810
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: as breathing, like it's just that automatic and that automatic

811
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: mode can be in a like high gear or low gear.

812
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 2: And typically if you're backstage hanging out with your friends, embarrassment. Again,

813
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: the driver here is preventing embarrassment, preventing from embarrassing yourself,

814
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: preventing embarrassing other people or making them feel embarrassed by association,

815
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: Like you're preventing embarrassment. And one of the reasons why

816
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: it's easier to hang out with people in your backstage

817
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 2: mode is because the stakes are low. Embarrass yourself, it

818
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: doesn't matter nearly as much as if you embarrass yourself,

819
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 2: you know, if you pee your pants into job interview.

820
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Although the funny ironic thing for us is, and

821
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: I believe anyone that performs on stage literally backstage sometimes

822
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: can be some of the most anxious when people are

823
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: sent back there, like you know, oh, the company wants

824
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: to send back these strangers you don't know like that.

825
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: That's the almost the height for me of like a

826
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,479
Speaker 1: boy here, I got to turn and turn on the chuck,

827
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: you know.

828
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just want to apologize for the group

829
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 2: of City Bank cardholders from like ten years ago and

830
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: we had a meet and greet with and it was

831
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: very awkward so sorry, guys, you never really got me.

832
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: Sorry, that's why we don't do meet and greet anymore.

833
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: It's just, yeah, we just want to be backstage with

834
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: our homies exactly.

835
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's also we can also automatically go into

836
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: a much more performative mode when the sticks get a

837
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: little higher. Yeah, but either way it's still automatic. So

838
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 2: Schlinker is like, Nope, we're really kind of performing almost

839
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: at all times. And then there was a scholar of

840
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 2: gender named Judith Butler and by what was I mean is?

841
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: And Judith Butler said, everything about you is shaped by

842
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: sociological forces, including gender. That people learn how to behave

843
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: according to what society says it's their gender is, or

844
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: what's expected of that gender, and that that's just how

845
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 2: we learn to behave certain ways according to gender.

846
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of grown

847
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: men who have a story where they're like when I

848
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: was in the third grade, I played with dolls and

849
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: I got made fun of and because that wasn't the

850
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 1: socially acceptable, you know, masculine construct And from that day forward,

851
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: I started doing things to where I fit in a

852
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 1: little more on the playground, and that shapes how they are,

853
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: you know, decades later sometimes.

854
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, carried over from the playground into the rest

855
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: of their life.

856
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this stuff is all changing for the better,

857
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: I think, but it's still it's not like it's been eradicated,

858
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: you know.

859
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. And speaking of gender too, I wondered if you

860
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 2: know how some people are just deeply offended by people

861
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 2: who are gender fluid, like to the point where you're like, what,

862
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: you don't even know this person, why do you hate

863
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: this so much? It may be wonder like if the

864
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: person who's so offended by it is upset because that

865
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 2: other person is flagrantly violating a social script and it's

866
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 2: making them and other people uncomfortable. And that brings up

867
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: a further point too, Who's which is more valuable that

868
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: person's authentic self that they're gender fluid or the comfort

869
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 2: of everybody else, the strangers around them, which one is

870
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 2: more valuable? Who should win out in that case? If

871
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: there's a conflict like.

872
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: That, absolutely, I mean sadly stuff like that is being

873
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: literally litigated. But also the idea of changing social norms,

874
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: and you know, if you're not rolling with the changes

875
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: that are happening in society, you may find yourself on

876
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: an island of in acceptance and loneliness, but that may

877
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: be fine with you because you may want to be like, no,

878
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: things were better the old way.

879
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: At the same time, too, you can't change social norms

880
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: without violating them. They tend to just kind of stay static,

881
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: and to make them dynamic, they have to be violated.

882
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: And anyone who's seen the movie Pleasantville knows that that

883
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 2: can turn out pretty good.

884
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 1: You may end up in color one day.

885
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: Man, that was a good movie.

886
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was pretty good. I haven't seen that in

887
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: a while.

888
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw it a couple of years ago. I've

889
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 2: watched it every example years.

890
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I've only seen it once.

891
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: Oh you should keep waking. Just buy the DVD. Go

892
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: old school, all right.

893
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of movies that kind of

894
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: dance around this stuff, like The Truman Show and just

895
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,919
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like this is just ripe ground

896
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: for comedy and drama.

897
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 2: I agree, Chuck Rife, ripe right purple.

898
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: So you know, I mentioned Neurodiversiens earlier and just sort

899
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: of my and I, you know, when I was doing

900
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: this research, I had that awakening of like, yeah, I've

901
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: been much more cognizant of that kind of stuff as

902
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: I've gotten older, and that stuff is more in the

903
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: forefront and diagnose more and more about like understanding that, Hey,

904
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: that person that I think is like men read the room,

905
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: why are you acting like that? They may have something

906
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,399
Speaker 1: going on neurodivergently, there may be a genuine mental illness there.

907
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: Goffman argued that if you have a mental illness or

908
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: any sort of thing a disability, or if you are

909
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: in housed, or you're obese or a drug user, that

910
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: all just lumps you in as a as a as

911
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: a thing I mean a stigma, which we're going to

912
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: talk more about in a second, basically, but and ends

913
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: up sort of creating the symptom of that thing just

914
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: because you're put in that box.

915
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so anybody who's who has a social stigma

916
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 2: like you just mentioned, you rattle off that list. They're

917
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: what Goffman called discredited. They don't have they're not they

918
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: have less value according to society if you this is

919
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: where he developed that empathy from researching this stuff. I bet,

920
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: especially based on something like someone's ethnicity or whether they're handicapped,

921
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: or whether they're homeless or whatever, that the idea that

922
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: they have less value socially speaking in this in this

923
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: sense is totally unfair because the social norms that we

924
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: create are generally arbitrary.

925
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure, and in not all cases. But you,

926
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: impression management is a is a tool that people can

927
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: use to get over or hide those stigmatized features. I mean,

928
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: we can't get super into code switching, but that could

929
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: be a pretty interesting short stuff to accompany this. I

930
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: think that is the idea, and it's not specific to

931
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: the African American community, but it is. If you talk

932
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: to a group of African Americans in the United States

933
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: today or you know, for many years now, they will say, no,

934
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: code switching is how we get by in white America basically.

935
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: And that's the idea that you may change the way

936
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: you talk when you're around white people, or change the

937
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: way you act then you normally would when you're in

938
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, around your family and friends or your own community.

939
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: And that's a that's a big, big thing.

940
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's a great example of it. You could

941
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: also be like, my last name sounds pretty ethnic, and

942
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: I want to change it so that people call me

943
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: back for job interviews. There's a lot of stuff you

944
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 2: can do, so you're not you're covering your stigma, so

945
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 2: you're not an automatically discredited person. But according to Golfman,

946
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: you're discreditabull. If you're found out, you will be stigmatized.

947
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 2: So sure, it's a terrible situation all around, just to

948
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: stigmatize groups based on our betray you social norms. I

949
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: hate it.

950
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember in elementary school. I'm not going to

951
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: name her name name because I don't know if she

952
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: would want this out there, but there was a girl

953
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 1: from you know, an Indian American girl in our school

954
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: that came back after a summer with an Americanized first name.

955
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 1: And so she was that from fourth grade till SENI

956
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: year in high school when we graduated together and I

957
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: lost touch with her, and like five or six years ago,

958
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 1: my good friend in Boston said, oh, well, so and

959
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 1: so is in town. I said, oh, is she going

960
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: by that name now again? And she went back to

961
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: her you know, she grew up a little bit and

962
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: was like, no, that is that's my name, That's my

963
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Indian name. And it just made me feel really good

964
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: that she reached that point, you know, good. Yeah, it

965
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: was great. So at you know, the furthest end of this,

966
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: I guess spectrum as autism. And we've talked about autism

967
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: here and there, but a lot of times, if you

968
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 1: have autism, you might have difficulty responding in what people

969
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 1: might consider an appropriate way in a social situation. And

970
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: masking is a big can be a big part of

971
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: self presentation when it comes to people with autism.

972
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: Yes, but there's autism researchers Amy Pearson and Kieran Rose,

973
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 2: and they make they go to great pains to basically

974
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 2: say masking is different than impression management, right. Impression management

975
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 2: is something everyone has to do. Masking is specific to

976
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: typically neurodivergent people to where they are protecting themselves by

977
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 2: pushing down their actual identities and hiding it at all

978
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: costs because they're afraid of being stigmatized because they've been

979
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: taught over the years that that's not they're not acceptable

980
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 2: as they are. And so those are those are two

981
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 2: really different things, even though they seem pretty like they

982
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 2: have a lot in common.

983
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And masking, you know, there are all

984
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: kinds of people who mask. We talked about that in

985
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: the sociopath episode once again and got emails from people.

986
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: They're like, I'm a sociopath and I put on a

987
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: big performance, so people don't know that.

988
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they're just always walking around like I love

989
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,959
Speaker 2: you man. Right, Yeah, just one note about autism, which

990
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 2: obviously deserves its own episodes still coming down the pike

991
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 2: one day. Don't worry about that. But you were talking

992
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 2: about just kind of learning. As you get older, you

993
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 2: know that you can't just you can't just make assumptions

994
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 2: about people based on their ability to interact socially. Yeah,

995
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: if you want to develop a familiarity and empathy for

996
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,479
Speaker 2: people with autism, I think you could do a lot

997
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: worse than starting with Love on the Spectrum all seasons,

998
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: Australian version and American version.

999
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: I think that is very sweet because that is like

1000
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: the fifth time you've recommended that show to people.

1001
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 2: People need to watch the show. It's so great. This

1002
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 2: season in America deserves an Emmy. It's a masterpiece.

1003
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: I've still never seen it.

1004
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: You really should. I think you'd love it. All right,

1005
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: So I guess, Chuck, since I did my every tenth

1006
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 2: episode mention of Love on the Spectrum, it's time for

1007
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 2: listener mail.

1008
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: Hey guys, I love the show is about popcorn. By

1009
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: the way, Okay, just finished the podcast on popcorn. It

1010
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: reminds me of a segment I saw years ago on

1011
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: Alton Brown's Good Eats Alton Brown at Lanton and I

1012
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: did a little work on that show back in the day.

1013
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: It's a prop Scott Nice while not directly related to popcorn,

1014
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: and Alton was a good due to work with. By

1015
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: the way, nice, while not directly related to popcorn. In

1016
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: this particular episode, the show's resident food anthropologists related to

1017
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: a factoid on Montezuma's revenge. They thought mona Zuma's real

1018
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: revenge was allowing the conquering Spaniards to return to Spain

1019
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: with maize without the knowledge of nixtimalization, which resulted in

1020
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 1: widespread pelligra or palagra, causing dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, and eventual

1021
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: death due to a lack of essential nutrients. Nyssen and

1022
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: trip to Fan in their diets. Nixt to molization is

1023
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: a traditional Mesoamerican process used to prepare maize and other

1024
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 1: grains for consumption, involving cooking the grain and an alkaline solution,

1025
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: typically limewater, which then allows for the outer paracarp the

1026
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: skin to be easily removed. The process significantly improves the

1027
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: digestibility and nutritional value of the grain. And that is

1028
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: from Bob.

1029
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 2: Bob, that was a great email. Yeah, well a top

1030
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 2: notch one. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it.

1031
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: I agreed.

1032
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 2: If you want to be like Bob and send us

1033
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: a really interesting, top notch email, we love that kind

1034
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: of thing, you can send it off to stuff podcast

1035
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com.

1036
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

1037
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1038
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.