1
00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:28,290
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, John, I am robot Goldstein. I will be

2
00:00:28,330 --> 00:00:33,729
Speaker 1: your robot medical assistant. Pass me the scalpel to chat.

3
00:00:34,250 --> 00:00:37,530
Speaker 1: Would you would you really? Would you love to continue

4
00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:38,129
Speaker 1: to chat with me?

5
00:00:39,690 --> 00:00:39,849
Speaker 2: No?

6
00:00:41,409 --> 00:00:43,530
Speaker 1: How many people are you able to be that honest with.

7
00:00:44,970 --> 00:00:45,210
Speaker 3: Just you?

8
00:00:46,930 --> 00:00:46,970
Speaker 4: So?

9
00:00:47,050 --> 00:00:51,849
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's kind of special, right, I know that

10
00:00:52,090 --> 00:00:54,130
Speaker 1: is a good point. Do you see it's a very

11
00:00:54,170 --> 00:01:06,650
Speaker 1: special bond? Yea from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and

12
00:01:06,730 --> 00:01:19,930
Speaker 1: this is Heavyweight Today episode Rachel and John. Right after

13
00:01:19,970 --> 00:01:20,369
Speaker 1: the break.

14
00:01:25,650 --> 00:01:28,050
Speaker 4: You ready to start? I'm ready to start.

15
00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:28,850
Speaker 5: You're sitting down?

16
00:01:29,170 --> 00:01:33,450
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, your eyes closed. Anything you see where there's

17
00:01:33,490 --> 00:01:35,410
Speaker 4: some feelings, that's what we're looking for.

18
00:01:35,730 --> 00:01:36,170
Speaker 6: Okay.

19
00:01:36,650 --> 00:01:39,570
Speaker 1: This is a therapist named Alvin in session with a

20
00:01:39,610 --> 00:01:41,890
Speaker 1: patient named Ted. What are you feeling?

21
00:01:42,090 --> 00:01:45,729
Speaker 4: Can you describe it? Like it's happening right now, right now.

22
00:01:46,090 --> 00:01:48,770
Speaker 1: The session was recorded as a part of an educational

23
00:01:48,810 --> 00:01:53,050
Speaker 1: psychotherapy video series. In the session, Alvin is helping Ted

24
00:01:53,170 --> 00:01:56,210
Speaker 1: relive a memory. The time is domineering father in law

25
00:01:56,450 --> 00:01:57,690
Speaker 1: was rude to his wife.

26
00:01:58,090 --> 00:01:59,770
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he's all dressed up.

27
00:01:59,690 --> 00:02:02,450
Speaker 5: Hi, Jenny, Yeah, oh there is and.

28
00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:03,730
Speaker 3: He's Yeah, there's a formal thing.

29
00:02:03,770 --> 00:02:05,450
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, good to see we have to

30
00:02:05,530 --> 00:02:06,970
Speaker 1: It's like the meanute. We talk to each other, our

31
00:02:07,010 --> 00:02:10,730
Speaker 1: voices drop, yeah, hi, how are you? Alvin's eyes are

32
00:02:10,770 --> 00:02:14,250
Speaker 1: shut tight. His method is to try to will himself

33
00:02:14,290 --> 00:02:17,810
Speaker 1: into the patient's skin to feel what the patient is feeling.

34
00:02:18,410 --> 00:02:19,610
Speaker 5: I can do this better than you.

35
00:02:19,650 --> 00:02:21,570
Speaker 1: Watch me. Okay, okay, okay.

36
00:02:21,650 --> 00:02:23,250
Speaker 4: I'm gonna put my arms around you.

37
00:02:23,330 --> 00:02:25,210
Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring you kind of clothes.

38
00:02:25,370 --> 00:02:27,530
Speaker 4: I'm doing better than you. Huh yeah good.

39
00:02:27,690 --> 00:02:30,970
Speaker 1: Alvin does voices and role plays, and at times the

40
00:02:31,010 --> 00:02:35,210
Speaker 1: session feels like avant garde improv It's playful and honestly

41
00:02:35,290 --> 00:02:38,050
Speaker 1: kind of bizarre. But the point of it all is

42
00:02:38,090 --> 00:02:41,090
Speaker 1: to help the patient rehearse behavior in the office that

43
00:02:41,130 --> 00:02:46,730
Speaker 1: he can then apply in real life. Toucher toucher, Oh yeah, Holder.

44
00:02:46,970 --> 00:02:48,810
Speaker 3: And Jenny like so much.

45
00:02:49,050 --> 00:02:51,330
Speaker 1: By the end of the session, Alvin has turned ted

46
00:02:51,730 --> 00:02:55,730
Speaker 1: a meek, buttoned up patient into someone capable of expressing

47
00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:59,370
Speaker 1: himself emotionally. Gonna be this way with Jenny because you

48
00:02:59,490 --> 00:03:00,450
Speaker 1: rehearsed it, got it.

49
00:03:00,890 --> 00:03:05,450
Speaker 3: I'm ready.

50
00:03:09,570 --> 00:03:14,170
Speaker 2: We had this ability within us to become a whole

51
00:03:14,210 --> 00:03:14,770
Speaker 2: new person.

52
00:03:15,730 --> 00:03:19,130
Speaker 1: Alvin died in twenty fourteen, but this is Howard, a

53
00:03:19,170 --> 00:03:23,850
Speaker 1: psychotherapist and one of Alvin's disciples. Howard runs Alvin's website

54
00:03:23,890 --> 00:03:27,530
Speaker 1: and publishes his books. Are you talking a little hyperbolically

55
00:03:27,530 --> 00:03:28,770
Speaker 1: when you say a whole new person?

56
00:03:28,890 --> 00:03:31,970
Speaker 2: No, it is that radical topathon. It's to become a

57
00:03:32,010 --> 00:03:35,730
Speaker 2: whole new person the term you use as an optimal person,

58
00:03:36,450 --> 00:03:38,370
Speaker 2: and to discover that within yourself.

59
00:03:39,610 --> 00:03:43,410
Speaker 1: According to Alvin, once you've discovered this optimal personhood, you

60
00:03:43,450 --> 00:03:45,890
Speaker 1: can shake off what others want and live on your

61
00:03:45,890 --> 00:03:46,530
Speaker 1: own terms.

62
00:03:46,930 --> 00:03:48,890
Speaker 2: It changed my life direction.

63
00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:52,170
Speaker 1: And for these kinds of radical results, Alvin was given

64
00:03:52,170 --> 00:03:56,690
Speaker 1: a Lifetime Achievement Award from the American Psychological Association. One

65
00:03:56,730 --> 00:04:00,570
Speaker 1: psychology textbook even goes so far as to describe Alvin

66
00:04:00,690 --> 00:04:14,170
Speaker 1: as being quote as important as Freud. But this isn't

67
00:04:14,170 --> 00:04:17,529
Speaker 1: a story about Alvin's professional life, his life inside the office.

68
00:04:18,529 --> 00:04:21,690
Speaker 1: This is a story about Alvin's real life.

69
00:04:21,770 --> 00:04:23,129
Speaker 5: He insisted, I run away.

70
00:04:24,130 --> 00:04:27,529
Speaker 1: This is Rachel, Alvin's daughter, and I.

71
00:04:27,529 --> 00:04:32,570
Speaker 5: Did, How old were you? I was in grade five?

72
00:04:34,130 --> 00:04:38,010
Speaker 1: The year was nineteen seventy. Alvin and Rachel's mom had

73
00:04:38,049 --> 00:04:41,210
Speaker 1: been locked in an ugly custody battle for eight years.

74
00:04:41,690 --> 00:04:45,609
Speaker 1: Rachel's mom was poor and struggled with depression. Rachel really

75
00:04:45,650 --> 00:04:49,010
Speaker 1: wanted to live with her dad, so when Alvin suggested

76
00:04:49,089 --> 00:04:51,689
Speaker 1: she run away from Judy in Denver to his house

77
00:04:51,729 --> 00:04:54,969
Speaker 1: in Ohio, Rachel didn't pack a bag, She didn't say

78
00:04:55,010 --> 00:04:57,849
Speaker 1: goodbye to anyone. She just left.

79
00:04:58,130 --> 00:05:01,089
Speaker 6: Like he set up this whole thing with his lawyer,

80
00:05:01,330 --> 00:05:04,089
Speaker 6: and I just felt like I needed to do with

81
00:05:04,130 --> 00:05:06,089
Speaker 6: my dad. And the lawyer told me and this was

82
00:05:06,130 --> 00:05:08,409
Speaker 6: the right thing. I think, I said, I was going

83
00:05:08,450 --> 00:05:12,529
Speaker 6: to the lie and somehow, I don't remember how I

84
00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:15,529
Speaker 6: got to the lawyer's office, and then they took me

85
00:05:15,609 --> 00:05:18,289
Speaker 6: to the airport and put me on the plane and

86
00:05:18,330 --> 00:05:19,330
Speaker 6: I left.

87
00:05:24,409 --> 00:05:27,130
Speaker 1: Alvin had gotten remarried to a woman with two kids,

88
00:05:27,409 --> 00:05:29,409
Speaker 1: and Rachel loved feeling like she was a part of

89
00:05:29,450 --> 00:05:32,529
Speaker 1: this happy family. There were dogs to play with and

90
00:05:32,609 --> 00:05:36,249
Speaker 1: bikes to ride, and yet this other feeling would often

91
00:05:36,289 --> 00:05:36,770
Speaker 1: creep in.

92
00:05:37,330 --> 00:05:40,249
Speaker 6: I miss my mom, I miss my friends, I miss

93
00:05:40,330 --> 00:05:44,689
Speaker 6: my cat. But I could never ever ever say that

94
00:05:44,929 --> 00:05:46,650
Speaker 6: out loud to anybody.

95
00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:50,729
Speaker 1: And there was someone else Rachel missed, missed most of all.

96
00:05:54,609 --> 00:05:58,889
Speaker 4: She told us she was going to the library, and

97
00:06:00,089 --> 00:06:02,289
Speaker 4: then she never came back.

98
00:06:03,330 --> 00:06:06,249
Speaker 1: This is Rachel's brother John. He's two and a half

99
00:06:06,330 --> 00:06:09,369
Speaker 1: years younger than Rachel and only has flashes of early

100
00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:13,570
Speaker 1: childhood memory About Alvin. He recalls doing father's son things

101
00:06:13,609 --> 00:06:16,650
Speaker 1: that it'd make perfect sense if the son was an adult,

102
00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:20,010
Speaker 1: things like lifting weights together and smoking.

103
00:06:20,729 --> 00:06:23,770
Speaker 4: He was a pipe smoker. He bought me my own

104
00:06:24,169 --> 00:06:27,770
Speaker 4: little cherrywood pipe, and you know, as a four year old,

105
00:06:27,810 --> 00:06:30,890
Speaker 4: he actually had me smoking, you know, tobacco in the

106
00:06:30,929 --> 00:06:32,049
Speaker 4: pipe with him.

107
00:06:32,409 --> 00:06:35,849
Speaker 1: It was as though Alvin couldn't distinguish between adults and children,

108
00:06:36,409 --> 00:06:39,049
Speaker 1: which was why he saw John's closeness with his mom

109
00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:43,010
Speaker 1: not as a child's natural maternal attachment, but rather as

110
00:06:43,049 --> 00:06:46,489
Speaker 1: a personal slight and so Alvin ever asked John to

111
00:06:46,529 --> 00:06:50,289
Speaker 1: run away. John was left behind in Denver with Judy.

112
00:06:50,929 --> 00:06:53,330
Speaker 4: I think in his mind, I just, you know, was

113
00:06:53,450 --> 00:06:57,489
Speaker 4: more a mama's boy and a chip off Judy's block,

114
00:06:57,609 --> 00:07:00,849
Speaker 4: and I think he sort of gave up on me,

115
00:07:02,010 --> 00:07:04,409
Speaker 4: and he was really focused on Rachel.

116
00:07:05,369 --> 00:07:08,529
Speaker 1: And as the final custody hearing approached, Alvin's focus on

117
00:07:08,650 --> 00:07:11,929
Speaker 1: Rachel and intensified. He wanted to prove to the court

118
00:07:12,010 --> 00:07:14,770
Speaker 1: that Rachel was better off with him, So he had

119
00:07:14,770 --> 00:07:18,690
Speaker 1: about a half dozen social workers and psychologists offtfare assessments,

120
00:07:19,250 --> 00:07:23,210
Speaker 1: Rachel was interviewed, and Alvin's new family observed. None of

121
00:07:23,210 --> 00:07:27,129
Speaker 1: the experts spoke to Judy, and the plan worked. In

122
00:07:27,170 --> 00:07:30,130
Speaker 1: the autumn of nineteen seventy, a judge ruled that Rachel

123
00:07:30,130 --> 00:07:32,809
Speaker 1: would be allowed to stay in Ohio with al for good,

124
00:07:33,450 --> 00:07:35,890
Speaker 1: but John would remain in Denver with Judy.

125
00:07:36,730 --> 00:07:38,489
Speaker 5: And we never lived together again.

126
00:07:46,369 --> 00:07:50,130
Speaker 6: When you have a sibling who is just a critical

127
00:07:50,450 --> 00:07:53,649
Speaker 6: part of your family and then you're separated from them,

128
00:07:54,090 --> 00:07:54,810
Speaker 6: it's a wound.

129
00:07:55,570 --> 00:07:58,850
Speaker 1: How uncommon was an arrangement like that?

130
00:07:59,690 --> 00:08:03,810
Speaker 6: Extreme? Yeah, very very uncommon. Kids are not split up.

131
00:08:04,929 --> 00:08:09,170
Speaker 4: We each grew up alone. I missed her through my

132
00:08:09,170 --> 00:08:13,410
Speaker 4: my whole childhood. I missed her a lot. I mean,

133
00:08:13,489 --> 00:08:17,970
Speaker 4: we were so close when we were young, and you know,

134
00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:21,810
Speaker 4: she was the big sister who through all of that

135
00:08:21,970 --> 00:08:29,530
Speaker 4: was looking out for me growing up from then on,

136
00:08:29,890 --> 00:08:33,370
Speaker 4: just me and my mom. Grew up as an only child,

137
00:08:33,970 --> 00:08:39,450
Speaker 4: and my mom just always being in pain, and she

138
00:08:39,570 --> 00:08:41,929
Speaker 4: never was able to enjoy whatever it is we were

139
00:08:41,970 --> 00:08:44,290
Speaker 4: doing at the moment. It was always, Oh, if only

140
00:08:44,690 --> 00:08:46,650
Speaker 4: Rachel were here, we could all be together, and I'd

141
00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:49,130
Speaker 4: be saying, but we're here now.

142
00:08:50,450 --> 00:08:53,730
Speaker 1: When he turned thirteen, John invited Rachel to his bar Mitzvah,

143
00:08:54,290 --> 00:08:57,930
Speaker 1: but Alvin wouldn't let her go. Rachel sent a poem instead.

144
00:08:58,650 --> 00:09:01,850
Speaker 4: It had to do with a rubber band stretching across

145
00:09:01,890 --> 00:09:09,490
Speaker 4: the distance and connecting us.

146
00:09:10,610 --> 00:09:13,210
Speaker 1: For John, not only did he lose his big sister,

147
00:09:13,570 --> 00:09:17,050
Speaker 1: he also lost his dad. Year after year, John tried

148
00:09:17,090 --> 00:09:20,130
Speaker 1: to re enter Alvin's life, but each time he reached out,

149
00:09:20,370 --> 00:09:24,570
Speaker 1: Alvin rebuked him. One time, as an adolescent, John tried

150
00:09:24,570 --> 00:09:25,450
Speaker 1: scheduling a visit.

151
00:09:26,170 --> 00:09:30,650
Speaker 4: Then he said, well, as long as you guys you

152
00:09:30,690 --> 00:09:34,610
Speaker 4: know me and my mom required any money, any child support,

153
00:09:34,770 --> 00:09:38,050
Speaker 4: there be no visit. And I said, well, it sounds

154
00:09:38,130 --> 00:09:40,770
Speaker 4: like you care more about money than about me, And

155
00:09:41,650 --> 00:09:43,250
Speaker 4: he said, well, I don't want it to just sound

156
00:09:43,330 --> 00:09:44,810
Speaker 4: like that. That's how it is.

157
00:09:51,530 --> 00:09:55,210
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, a few years later, John asked once again if

158
00:09:55,210 --> 00:09:58,890
Speaker 1: he could come visit. By this point, Rachel was eighteen

159
00:09:59,090 --> 00:10:02,170
Speaker 1: and no longer living with Alvin, So when Alvin refused

160
00:10:02,250 --> 00:10:05,250
Speaker 1: John yet again, Rachel told her brother to come visit

161
00:10:05,290 --> 00:10:09,250
Speaker 1: her instead. They hadn't seen each other in eight years.

162
00:10:10,090 --> 00:10:11,970
Speaker 1: Was she the same sister that you remembered?

163
00:10:14,130 --> 00:10:16,610
Speaker 4: No? I mean I knew her as a you know,

164
00:10:18,770 --> 00:10:21,930
Speaker 4: six seven, eight, nine ten year old. Next time I

165
00:10:21,970 --> 00:10:24,570
Speaker 4: saw her, she was an adult.

166
00:10:25,290 --> 00:10:27,850
Speaker 1: In the years since that visit, Rachel and John have

167
00:10:27,890 --> 00:10:30,530
Speaker 1: made a point of staying in each other's lives. They

168
00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:33,610
Speaker 1: talk on the phone, celebrate holidays together, and once a

169
00:10:33,690 --> 00:10:36,770
Speaker 1: year their families all take a trip. But their childhood

170
00:10:36,850 --> 00:10:38,570
Speaker 1: together that's been lost.

171
00:10:39,290 --> 00:10:42,930
Speaker 6: I mean, my daughter certainly watches us and thinks that

172
00:10:42,970 --> 00:10:48,650
Speaker 6: we're more like cousins. She can see the disconnect because

173
00:10:48,690 --> 00:10:49,970
Speaker 6: we did not grow up together.

174
00:10:50,930 --> 00:10:54,330
Speaker 1: John and Rachel still have questions about their childhood, but

175
00:10:54,370 --> 00:10:56,610
Speaker 1: now that their parents are both dead, they have no

176
00:10:56,650 --> 00:10:59,810
Speaker 1: one to ask, so they pass through their separate memories,

177
00:10:59,970 --> 00:11:03,250
Speaker 1: trying to construct a timeline, comparing moments of overlap and

178
00:11:03,250 --> 00:11:06,850
Speaker 1: filling in the blanks to this end. One night, while

179
00:11:06,890 --> 00:11:10,170
Speaker 1: John was visiting Rachel for Thanksgiving, he asked if they

180
00:11:10,170 --> 00:11:15,170
Speaker 1: could go through Alvin's files. Alvin was an obsessive record keeper,

181
00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:19,130
Speaker 1: and after he died, Rachel inherited his papers. She'd never

182
00:11:19,170 --> 00:11:21,530
Speaker 1: really gone through them, keeping them stored away in a

183
00:11:21,570 --> 00:11:25,210
Speaker 1: filing cabinet, but that night she pulled him out, and

184
00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:29,130
Speaker 1: together John and Rachel made a series of disturbing discoveries,

185
00:11:29,970 --> 00:11:32,449
Speaker 1: the first of which was the script.

186
00:11:34,850 --> 00:11:37,930
Speaker 4: The script for me was like, oh my God.

187
00:11:38,930 --> 00:11:41,850
Speaker 1: The script was a lengthy diatribe written by Alvin from

188
00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:44,730
Speaker 1: the point of view of a child, Rachel's point of view.

189
00:11:45,410 --> 00:11:49,690
Speaker 1: In it, Alvin refers to himself as Daddy, Judy, as mother,

190
00:11:50,010 --> 00:11:53,930
Speaker 1: or Judy or simply she. I later asked Rachel to

191
00:11:53,970 --> 00:11:58,010
Speaker 1: read some over the phone, two and.

192
00:11:58,010 --> 00:12:02,170
Speaker 7: Half pages long and small psychologists, writing, Okay, so here

193
00:12:02,210 --> 00:12:06,810
Speaker 7: I go. It's in my good, happy dreams. Custody is changed,

194
00:12:06,930 --> 00:12:11,050
Speaker 7: and I live with Daddy. If I am forced to

195
00:12:11,290 --> 00:12:14,010
Speaker 7: go back and live with mother, it will only be

196
00:12:14,130 --> 00:12:17,410
Speaker 7: till the day I'm fourteen, which apparently was when you

197
00:12:17,450 --> 00:12:21,690
Speaker 7: could de side. When I'm with her, I feel scared

198
00:12:21,730 --> 00:12:25,050
Speaker 7: that I might get tight and angry and cold like Judy.

199
00:12:26,050 --> 00:12:28,770
Speaker 7: She's not a mother, she is a keeper. She makes

200
00:12:28,810 --> 00:12:32,050
Speaker 7: me feel like I'm in a prison. I can't let

201
00:12:32,090 --> 00:12:32,890
Speaker 7: her touch me.

202
00:12:33,610 --> 00:12:36,810
Speaker 1: It was like finding your childhood internal monologue committed to

203
00:12:36,850 --> 00:12:40,730
Speaker 1: paper and written in your father's handwriting. Rachel didn't remember

204
00:12:40,810 --> 00:12:43,490
Speaker 1: seeing the script as a kid, but you remembered saying

205
00:12:43,570 --> 00:12:47,330
Speaker 1: those things, and she remembered thinking them. In one of

206
00:12:47,370 --> 00:12:51,930
Speaker 1: Alvin's many books, a volume entitled The Manual of Optimal Behavior,

207
00:12:52,330 --> 00:12:55,410
Speaker 1: He writes that behavior can be rehearsed and modified quote

208
00:12:55,770 --> 00:12:58,330
Speaker 1: until you are ready and eager to go ahead and

209
00:12:58,410 --> 00:13:02,650
Speaker 1: do what you have rehearsed and modified. Unbeknownst to her,

210
00:13:03,130 --> 00:13:05,930
Speaker 1: Alvin was having Rachel rehearse and modify.

211
00:13:06,970 --> 00:13:12,650
Speaker 4: It was so explicit. There was nothing subtle about it.

212
00:13:12,730 --> 00:13:14,090
Speaker 4: You know, the whole thing was sick.

213
00:13:15,530 --> 00:13:18,130
Speaker 1: The second thing discovered among the files was a letter

214
00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:21,530
Speaker 1: from Rachel to her mom. In it, she begs Judy

215
00:13:21,610 --> 00:13:24,890
Speaker 1: to let her live with Alvin, but there were two copies,

216
00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:28,930
Speaker 1: one written in Rachel's hand and one written in Alvin's.

217
00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:41,930
Speaker 1: Going through the papers, Rachel remembered, other things, how Alvin

218
00:13:42,010 --> 00:13:44,330
Speaker 1: encouraged her not to smile when she was with her mom,

219
00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:47,410
Speaker 1: saying if someone photographed her happy, it could be used

220
00:13:47,410 --> 00:13:50,850
Speaker 1: as evidence against him in court. In every photo from

221
00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:53,690
Speaker 1: that period with her mother, Rachel is wearing a frown.

222
00:13:54,410 --> 00:13:58,450
Speaker 6: That's when I started questioning and started to realize that

223
00:13:58,570 --> 00:14:01,530
Speaker 6: I was coached or brainwashed.

224
00:14:04,730 --> 00:14:08,250
Speaker 1: It made sense. For most of her adult life, Rachel

225
00:14:08,290 --> 00:14:11,330
Speaker 1: had had no memory of loving her mom. It was

226
00:14:11,370 --> 00:14:14,130
Speaker 1: only after her mother's death when she found mother's day

227
00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:16,330
Speaker 1: and birthday card she'd written to Judy when she was

228
00:14:16,450 --> 00:14:20,810
Speaker 1: very small that Rachel realized she had I love you, mommy.

229
00:14:20,890 --> 00:14:24,410
Speaker 1: She'd written I love you so much, but with Al's

230
00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:34,570
Speaker 1: constant coaching, it had all been stamped out. The final

231
00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:37,570
Speaker 1: thing John and Rachel found that night were those psychological

232
00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:40,690
Speaker 1: reports Alvin at Rachel submit to just before the final

233
00:14:40,690 --> 00:14:44,810
Speaker 1: custody hearing. In them, you see Alvin's scripting bear out.

234
00:14:45,450 --> 00:14:48,770
Speaker 1: One report notes that Rachel kept repeating, quote, I want

235
00:14:48,810 --> 00:14:51,730
Speaker 1: to live with my father. He loves me. My mother

236
00:14:51,850 --> 00:14:55,170
Speaker 1: doesn't love me. The report notes that she said this

237
00:14:55,370 --> 00:15:00,850
Speaker 1: with quote grim determination. They also uncovered one particular report

238
00:15:00,890 --> 00:15:03,290
Speaker 1: that night that was longer than any of the others.

239
00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:06,530
Speaker 1: It was the only one that evaluated both John and Rachel,

240
00:15:06,930 --> 00:15:10,410
Speaker 1: and in this it carried the most weight and what

241
00:15:10,530 --> 00:15:13,530
Speaker 1: shocked John and Rachel most of all, my dad.

242
00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:14,050
Speaker 5: Clearly ed.

243
00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:18,770
Speaker 6: Edited it and then she rewrote it with the edits

244
00:15:19,130 --> 00:15:22,450
Speaker 6: and submitted that rewrite.

245
00:15:22,690 --> 00:15:24,370
Speaker 1: Is that ethical as a social work?

246
00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:26,530
Speaker 6: No no, no, no, no, no no no no it's

247
00:15:26,570 --> 00:15:31,650
Speaker 6: not no oh no no no. No one should ever

248
00:15:31,770 --> 00:15:36,570
Speaker 6: let anybody else, especially their client, edit their reports. No,

249
00:15:36,650 --> 00:15:38,170
Speaker 6: it's it's really bad.

250
00:15:39,490 --> 00:15:42,730
Speaker 1: The report was written by a social worker named Joyce.

251
00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:52,890
Speaker 1: Alvin's edits to Joyce's report made the language more emphatic.

252
00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:56,730
Speaker 1: For example, where Joyce had written that Rachel was hesitant

253
00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:59,530
Speaker 1: when it came to judy, Alvin changed it to say

254
00:15:59,650 --> 00:16:03,490
Speaker 1: she was fearful. In another spot, he added that Rachel

255
00:16:03,570 --> 00:16:06,450
Speaker 1: wanted to blot out any memory of ever having been

256
00:16:06,450 --> 00:16:07,730
Speaker 1: away from him.

257
00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:12,810
Speaker 4: Honestly, I mean it was horrifying, you know, just to

258
00:16:12,850 --> 00:16:18,610
Speaker 4: see the detailed notes, to see the edited drafts, the

259
00:16:18,650 --> 00:16:22,610
Speaker 4: crossouts and his handwriting, and then the final version that

260
00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:26,050
Speaker 4: was submitted to the courts with his edits in there,

261
00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:29,330
Speaker 4: like there's no question in what happened.

262
00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:34,290
Speaker 1: The report concludes with a recommendation, the strongest one of

263
00:16:34,330 --> 00:16:37,330
Speaker 1: any report and the only recommendation of its kind.

264
00:16:37,890 --> 00:16:41,050
Speaker 6: She recommended that I live with him, and that my

265
00:16:41,090 --> 00:16:42,970
Speaker 6: brother lived with my mom.

266
00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:47,610
Speaker 1: John and Rachel's separation came down to a decision dictated

267
00:16:47,690 --> 00:16:55,330
Speaker 1: by Alvin and signed off on by Joyce. How was

268
00:16:55,370 --> 00:16:57,770
Speaker 1: Alvin able to exert this kind of power over a

269
00:16:57,770 --> 00:17:01,170
Speaker 1: social worker, someone who was supposed to be an impartial outsider.

270
00:17:02,090 --> 00:17:05,410
Speaker 1: John and Rachel couldn't understand it. But that night, when

271
00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:08,889
Speaker 1: Rachel googled Joyce, she was shocked to realize that Joyce

272
00:17:08,889 --> 00:17:13,409
Speaker 1: had been an impartial outsider at all. Joyce was a

273
00:17:13,409 --> 00:17:18,169
Speaker 1: family friend. Rachel recognized Joyce as the kind, dark haired

274
00:17:18,209 --> 00:17:21,530
Speaker 1: woman whose house she visited as a child. Rachel would

275
00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:23,649
Speaker 1: bring her cello over to play music with Joyce in

276
00:17:23,689 --> 00:17:27,129
Speaker 1: her family, which means that, on top of everything else

277
00:17:27,169 --> 00:17:29,810
Speaker 1: wrong with the report, Joyce should never have been the

278
00:17:29,810 --> 00:17:31,649
Speaker 1: person to write it in the first place.

279
00:17:32,530 --> 00:17:35,650
Speaker 6: She was like the one person in my life as

280
00:17:35,689 --> 00:17:40,090
Speaker 6: a kid who could have said, Hey, I think you're

281
00:17:40,090 --> 00:17:43,929
Speaker 6: coaching her and this isn't right. Why are we going

282
00:17:44,010 --> 00:17:47,330
Speaker 6: to try and split these kids up? She was the

283
00:17:47,369 --> 00:17:50,170
Speaker 6: one who could have said something.

284
00:17:51,169 --> 00:17:56,769
Speaker 4: In nineteen seventy Joyce recommended that my sister go with

285
00:17:56,810 --> 00:17:58,970
Speaker 4: my father and that I go with my mother. And

286
00:17:59,010 --> 00:18:05,249
Speaker 4: that's what happened, and that dictated the course of my life.

287
00:18:05,490 --> 00:18:07,169
Speaker 4: What happened?

288
00:18:08,290 --> 00:18:10,369
Speaker 1: This is the question that's been nagging at John and

289
00:18:10,449 --> 00:18:13,850
Speaker 1: Rachel since they found the report. How could this have happened?

290
00:18:14,689 --> 00:18:17,729
Speaker 1: And so John and Rachel want to find Joyce and

291
00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:21,249
Speaker 1: ask her. What I don't fully understand, though, is what

292
00:18:21,330 --> 00:18:24,609
Speaker 1: I have to offer. Rachel and John are both practicing

293
00:18:24,649 --> 00:18:28,929
Speaker 1: therapists themselves. They're more than capable of posing difficult questions

294
00:18:29,449 --> 00:18:32,449
Speaker 1: and Although I play a mental health semi professional, semi

295
00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:35,770
Speaker 1: convincingly on a podcast, I'm not actually one at all.

296
00:18:36,609 --> 00:18:39,170
Speaker 5: What can I do well?

297
00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:40,850
Speaker 3: So?

298
00:18:41,129 --> 00:18:45,209
Speaker 6: I have had to advocate for myself my entire life

299
00:18:45,369 --> 00:18:49,249
Speaker 6: from a very young age, and nobody advocated for me

300
00:18:49,369 --> 00:18:53,850
Speaker 6: or my brother, and so if you could help me

301
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:57,929
Speaker 6: with this, it would be a healing piece for me

302
00:18:58,090 --> 00:19:00,489
Speaker 6: that somebody else advocated for me.

303
00:19:06,609 --> 00:19:28,969
Speaker 1: After the break in search of Joyce, I find Joyce

304
00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:32,649
Speaker 1: the social workers facebook and email address right away, and

305
00:19:32,689 --> 00:19:34,969
Speaker 1: I message to ask if she'd be willing to speak

306
00:19:34,970 --> 00:19:38,569
Speaker 1: with John and Rachel about their parents' custody battle. I

307
00:19:38,570 --> 00:19:41,570
Speaker 1: don't hear back for several weeks, and during this time,

308
00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:44,330
Speaker 1: my thoughts keep returning to Alvin and the video of

309
00:19:44,369 --> 00:19:47,689
Speaker 1: his session with Ted, the meek, buttoned up patient.

310
00:19:47,810 --> 00:19:49,529
Speaker 4: Toucher toucher oh Jack.

311
00:19:49,929 --> 00:19:53,490
Speaker 1: Throughout, Alvin tries to help Ted release his bottled up feelings.

312
00:19:53,649 --> 00:19:54,850
Speaker 5: I can do this better than you.

313
00:19:54,889 --> 00:19:55,249
Speaker 4: Watch me.

314
00:19:55,409 --> 00:19:57,410
Speaker 1: Okay, right, okay, okay.

315
00:19:57,169 --> 00:19:58,729
Speaker 4: What's happening inside me?

316
00:19:59,409 --> 00:20:00,650
Speaker 1: Right now?

317
00:20:01,290 --> 00:20:02,169
Speaker 4: Over my chest?

318
00:20:02,250 --> 00:20:04,090
Speaker 1: I'm having a who It felt like a brand of

319
00:20:04,129 --> 00:20:07,530
Speaker 1: extreme empathy in the first viewing, now feels like something else.

320
00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:09,210
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put my arms around you.

321
00:20:09,369 --> 00:20:11,290
Speaker 4: I'm doing better than you. Huh yeah.

322
00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:14,210
Speaker 1: Now it feels as though Alvin is scripting the outcome.

323
00:20:14,490 --> 00:20:16,330
Speaker 4: If you want to cry, go ahead, good, it's okay,

324
00:20:16,490 --> 00:20:16,729
Speaker 4: go on.

325
00:20:17,129 --> 00:20:19,369
Speaker 1: At one point, Alvin tells Ted to cry.

326
00:20:19,689 --> 00:20:22,090
Speaker 4: Ted, it's okay, go ahead, cry, go it's all right.

327
00:20:22,169 --> 00:20:24,169
Speaker 1: Ted is not anywhere close to crying.

328
00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:25,250
Speaker 5: Ted, you're starting to cry.

329
00:20:25,250 --> 00:20:27,609
Speaker 1: Go ahead, let yourself, let yourself go on. It's all right,

330
00:20:27,649 --> 00:20:30,369
Speaker 1: go on, do it. Ted is not starting to cry,

331
00:20:30,970 --> 00:20:33,850
Speaker 1: but Alvin insists, Ted, you're on the verge of crying.

332
00:20:34,369 --> 00:20:34,649
Speaker 8: Do it.

333
00:20:34,730 --> 00:20:35,770
Speaker 2: No, cry, go.

334
00:20:35,649 --> 00:20:38,929
Speaker 1: Ahead, And then a tear appears in the corner of

335
00:20:38,970 --> 00:20:42,770
Speaker 1: Ted's eye. It rolls down his cheek. It's as though

336
00:20:42,810 --> 00:20:46,249
Speaker 1: Alvin has conjured it into being through sheer force of

337
00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:46,929
Speaker 1: his own will.

338
00:20:47,250 --> 00:20:50,210
Speaker 5: Good for you, Good for you, great, great, okay now.

339
00:20:53,850 --> 00:20:56,290
Speaker 1: The video is a part of a series produced by

340
00:20:56,290 --> 00:21:01,769
Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association intended to showcase prestigious psychologists in session.

341
00:21:02,570 --> 00:21:05,609
Speaker 1: The way the series works is that, for privacy reasons,

342
00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:09,049
Speaker 1: the patients are portrayed by actors. As the credits were,

343
00:21:09,449 --> 00:21:12,850
Speaker 1: I learned that while Alvin the therapist is Alvin the therapist,

344
00:21:13,330 --> 00:21:16,649
Speaker 1: Ted the patient is actually Bob the actor.

345
00:21:17,209 --> 00:21:19,850
Speaker 9: It was a quick shoot. There wasn't a rehearsal per se.

346
00:21:19,889 --> 00:21:21,930
Speaker 9: We just kind of went in and improvised.

347
00:21:22,649 --> 00:21:26,250
Speaker 1: This is Bob, and performance wise, Bob is done at all.

348
00:21:26,609 --> 00:21:30,609
Speaker 9: Chuggled swords, cracked whips, eaten fire. I've done for ten years.

349
00:21:30,649 --> 00:21:32,169
Speaker 9: I did a stage hypnosis show.

350
00:21:32,810 --> 00:21:36,330
Speaker 1: Bob is a regular renaissance man in that he also

351
00:21:36,369 --> 00:21:39,449
Speaker 1: worked at a renaissance fair. When Bob showed up to

352
00:21:39,490 --> 00:21:42,210
Speaker 1: film that day, he was asked to improvise some sort

353
00:21:42,250 --> 00:21:45,330
Speaker 1: of marital problem that Alvin could help solve by bringing

354
00:21:45,369 --> 00:21:48,409
Speaker 1: his method to bear. I asked Bob if he found

355
00:21:48,409 --> 00:21:53,169
Speaker 1: Alvin's behavior domineering, but Bob doesn't recall much. There is

356
00:21:53,209 --> 00:21:56,529
Speaker 1: one thing, though, that Bob does still recall, even thirteen

357
00:21:56,609 --> 00:22:00,890
Speaker 1: years later. It seems Bob wasn't Alvin's first choice of patient.

358
00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:03,369
Speaker 9: He had had someone else do it before. I think

359
00:22:03,369 --> 00:22:06,249
Speaker 9: it was an African American lady and it didn't go

360
00:22:06,409 --> 00:22:07,609
Speaker 9: the way it needed to do.

361
00:22:07,649 --> 00:22:08,210
Speaker 10: You know what I mean?

362
00:22:09,689 --> 00:22:10,450
Speaker 1: Can you elaborate?

363
00:22:10,770 --> 00:22:13,129
Speaker 9: He showed it to me briefly.

364
00:22:13,449 --> 00:22:16,290
Speaker 1: Bob describes the video Alvin showed him before they started

365
00:22:16,290 --> 00:22:19,330
Speaker 1: filming that day. In it, the setup was the same

366
00:22:19,369 --> 00:22:22,409
Speaker 1: as it was for Bob shoot. Alvin was in an armchair,

367
00:22:22,649 --> 00:22:25,969
Speaker 1: his legs up on an ottoman, except this time in

368
00:22:26,010 --> 00:22:30,090
Speaker 1: the armchair beside him was the actress. Like Bob, the

369
00:22:30,129 --> 00:22:32,090
Speaker 1: actress in the video had been asked to come up

370
00:22:32,129 --> 00:22:35,609
Speaker 1: with a marriage problem, but in doing so, the actress

371
00:22:35,649 --> 00:22:38,810
Speaker 1: went to a darker place than Alvin anticipated, describing a

372
00:22:38,889 --> 00:22:43,369
Speaker 1: husband who was vicious and cruel. Nonetheless, Alvin tried to

373
00:22:43,409 --> 00:22:44,090
Speaker 1: offer counsel.

374
00:22:44,770 --> 00:22:47,530
Speaker 9: He was saying things like when he behaves in this way,

375
00:22:47,609 --> 00:22:50,170
Speaker 9: can you be playful about it? And the actress said

376
00:22:50,209 --> 00:22:54,050
Speaker 9: things like when he calls me names, suggesting that he

377
00:22:54,169 --> 00:22:55,889
Speaker 9: might be in some ways borderline, at the very least

378
00:22:56,449 --> 00:22:57,369
Speaker 9: verbally abusive.

379
00:22:58,330 --> 00:23:00,369
Speaker 1: It seemed there was the way the actress was given

380
00:23:00,409 --> 00:23:03,530
Speaker 1: to talking about an abusive relationship, and then there was

381
00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:05,689
Speaker 1: the way that Alvin preferred her to talk about one.

382
00:23:06,409 --> 00:23:09,529
Speaker 1: And so the actress was replaced and Bob shown her

383
00:23:09,609 --> 00:23:12,850
Speaker 1: video to illustrate what Alvin did not want.

384
00:23:12,929 --> 00:23:24,889
Speaker 10: It's you know. I got the message, I guess.

385
00:23:26,330 --> 00:23:29,449
Speaker 1: Still, not having received a response from Joyce, I decide

386
00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:32,050
Speaker 1: to mail a letter, and just a few days later

387
00:23:32,449 --> 00:23:36,090
Speaker 1: I find an email in my inbox. In it, Joyce

388
00:23:36,129 --> 00:23:38,330
Speaker 1: tells me She's not sure how much help she can be.

389
00:23:38,970 --> 00:23:42,249
Speaker 1: She reminds me that it has been fifty years, but

390
00:23:42,409 --> 00:23:46,490
Speaker 1: she says she's willing to try. She concludes the email

391
00:23:46,530 --> 00:24:05,370
Speaker 1: by saying, please feel free to contact me if you wish. Joyce, Hello, Hello,

392
00:24:05,929 --> 00:24:07,290
Speaker 1: I think your sister's here too.

393
00:24:08,129 --> 00:24:09,770
Speaker 5: Here we are well.

394
00:24:11,609 --> 00:24:14,530
Speaker 1: The last time John and Rachel saw Joyce they were children.

395
00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:18,489
Speaker 1: They're now in their fifties and sixties. Because of the pandemic,

396
00:24:18,649 --> 00:24:21,249
Speaker 1: the meeting between Rachel, John, and Joyce will have to

397
00:24:21,250 --> 00:24:24,450
Speaker 1: take place over Zoom. John and Rachel joined first from

398
00:24:24,490 --> 00:24:28,090
Speaker 1: their respective homes. So how are you guys feeling today?

399
00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:30,450
Speaker 2: Uh?

400
00:24:30,929 --> 00:24:34,689
Speaker 6: Quite anxious? Actually, what about your brother John?

401
00:24:35,609 --> 00:24:37,769
Speaker 4: I'm more nervous than I thought I would be.

402
00:24:38,929 --> 00:24:42,530
Speaker 1: John is seated in a chair, his posture upright. Rachel

403
00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:44,970
Speaker 1: is sitting back on a couch. Go ahead and talk

404
00:24:45,010 --> 00:24:46,530
Speaker 1: a little bit. What did you have for breakfast?

405
00:24:47,409 --> 00:24:51,049
Speaker 6: I had yogurt and blueberries.

406
00:24:51,129 --> 00:24:53,810
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too.

407
00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:58,090
Speaker 1: I can see the Joyce is in the Zoom waiting

408
00:24:58,169 --> 00:25:02,169
Speaker 1: room waiting. Back in my day, a waiting room had

409
00:25:02,209 --> 00:25:05,129
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff to keep you occupied, like lukewarm

410
00:25:05,209 --> 00:25:07,689
Speaker 1: water you could drink from a paper cup or a

411
00:25:07,730 --> 00:25:11,050
Speaker 1: twenty year old copy of Oat. But now waiting rooms

412
00:25:11,050 --> 00:25:15,449
Speaker 1: are so metaphysical there's nothing to do with them. I

413
00:25:15,490 --> 00:25:20,369
Speaker 1: suggest we let Joyce in. Okay, Yeah, okay, okay, yeah,

414
00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:24,770
Speaker 1: let's do it. Joyce appears on the screen wearing a

415
00:25:24,810 --> 00:25:27,609
Speaker 1: bright blue sweater and a colorful ascot that gives her

416
00:25:27,649 --> 00:25:31,369
Speaker 1: the affect of a fun grandmother. Standing beside Joyce is

417
00:25:31,369 --> 00:25:33,689
Speaker 1: a middle aged man who I assume is her son.

418
00:25:34,129 --> 00:25:35,369
Speaker 1: He's helping her get set up.

419
00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:36,090
Speaker 4: Hello.

420
00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:41,810
Speaker 1: Hello, Joyce and her son frown at the computer. It

421
00:25:41,810 --> 00:25:44,969
Speaker 1: seems they're having sound issues. There's a long moment in

422
00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:48,129
Speaker 1: which we all look at each other in silence, and

423
00:25:48,169 --> 00:25:55,570
Speaker 1: then hello, Hi. Joyce settles into an armchair. Well do

424
00:25:56,290 --> 00:25:58,210
Speaker 1: you all look familiar to each other?

425
00:25:59,330 --> 00:26:04,130
Speaker 6: No, well it's been a long time. I'm Rachel.

426
00:26:04,490 --> 00:26:06,250
Speaker 3: Hi Joyce, Hi, Rachel.

427
00:26:06,929 --> 00:26:07,689
Speaker 4: Hi, I am John.

428
00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:13,770
Speaker 1: You're John, So Joyce, do you uh?

429
00:26:13,970 --> 00:26:14,209
Speaker 4: I know?

430
00:26:14,889 --> 00:26:18,930
Speaker 1: John and Rachel are curious about just how much you remember,

431
00:26:19,050 --> 00:26:21,009
Speaker 1: maybe maybe virtually nothing.

432
00:26:22,730 --> 00:26:25,929
Speaker 3: So I wasn't clear what what I can do for you.

433
00:26:26,050 --> 00:26:30,330
Speaker 3: I'm certainly willing to try. So.

434
00:26:30,649 --> 00:26:33,769
Speaker 6: I think what we're remembering from that time, or what

435
00:26:33,850 --> 00:26:36,970
Speaker 6: we know, is that my dad and my mom were

436
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:38,810
Speaker 6: in a very I don't know if you remember a

437
00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:45,129
Speaker 6: bitter custody battle, and there were so many court battles,

438
00:26:45,609 --> 00:26:50,569
Speaker 6: and one of the reports was done by you, So

439
00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:52,530
Speaker 6: we wanted to talk to you about that and find

440
00:26:52,530 --> 00:26:53,969
Speaker 6: out what you remembered about that.

441
00:26:55,649 --> 00:26:58,490
Speaker 1: Joyce inhales to clenched teeth, shakes her head.

442
00:26:59,449 --> 00:27:03,649
Speaker 3: Oh, I really don't know what happened.

443
00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:12,609
Speaker 6: We wanna we think. I think our father influenced kind of

444
00:27:12,649 --> 00:27:15,210
Speaker 6: everybody he met in a very heavy handed way.

445
00:27:15,810 --> 00:27:22,449
Speaker 3: Yes, I would certainly agree with that. You know, saying

446
00:27:22,449 --> 00:27:25,250
Speaker 3: al was heavy handed is an understatement.

447
00:27:26,770 --> 00:27:29,450
Speaker 1: Joyce's husband at the time was a colleague of Alvin's.

448
00:27:29,810 --> 00:27:32,209
Speaker 1: That's how she first came to know Alvin. He and

449
00:27:32,209 --> 00:27:35,770
Speaker 1: her husband both taught in the local university psychology department.

450
00:27:36,449 --> 00:27:40,329
Speaker 1: Joyce says her husband would always come home with al Stories.

451
00:27:40,330 --> 00:27:48,009
Speaker 3: Acting out at meetings and shouting out inappropriate stuff. So

452
00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:52,889
Speaker 3: he was very, very controlling. He took control of any situation,

453
00:27:52,929 --> 00:27:57,570
Speaker 3: any social situation. One party at my house, he was

454
00:27:57,609 --> 00:28:01,290
Speaker 3: a guest along with the other members of the psych department,

455
00:28:01,850 --> 00:28:05,729
Speaker 3: and he just took control of the whole evening. And

456
00:28:05,850 --> 00:28:09,850
Speaker 3: of course the more people drank, the more intense that

457
00:28:09,970 --> 00:28:14,050
Speaker 3: God I think the focus was on people's dreams and

458
00:28:14,129 --> 00:28:15,409
Speaker 3: dream analysis.

459
00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:21,090
Speaker 1: For Alvin a Freudian, this meant exploring each partygoer's dream

460
00:28:21,209 --> 00:28:25,370
Speaker 1: for hidden sexual desires that he Alvin could then expound

461
00:28:25,449 --> 00:28:33,529
Speaker 1: upon in a room full of colleagues. Joyce relates the

462
00:28:33,530 --> 00:28:37,169
Speaker 1: anecdote to illustrate the kind of guy Alvin was, but

463
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:40,210
Speaker 1: John hears something else in the story, So you all

464
00:28:40,250 --> 00:28:46,209
Speaker 1: socialized well. John is trying to remind Joyce that she

465
00:28:46,290 --> 00:28:50,450
Speaker 1: was Alvin's friend, that writing the report wasn't appropriate, but

466
00:28:50,490 --> 00:28:52,530
Speaker 1: the implication goes over Joyce's head.

467
00:28:53,010 --> 00:28:58,210
Speaker 3: The department wasn't a big one, and it was close knit,

468
00:28:58,370 --> 00:29:06,450
Speaker 3: and everybody got together. They you know, Friday, what do

469
00:29:06,490 --> 00:29:08,930
Speaker 3: you do? You hang out with the people that you

470
00:29:08,970 --> 00:29:14,930
Speaker 3: know best, and that was in the department. What kinds

471
00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:18,610
Speaker 3: of questions did you have that I can help with

472
00:29:18,770 --> 00:29:22,370
Speaker 3: or that I might answer or speculate about.

473
00:29:24,850 --> 00:29:30,010
Speaker 4: You don't remember evaluating us, You don't remember having that role.

474
00:29:30,810 --> 00:29:37,009
Speaker 6: No, I guess I'm curious if you remember, because I

475
00:29:37,050 --> 00:29:39,009
Speaker 6: would have said also, like I want to live with

476
00:29:39,010 --> 00:29:41,890
Speaker 6: my dad and I love living here. But I was

477
00:29:41,970 --> 00:29:46,890
Speaker 6: coached like don't smile if someone takes a picture of

478
00:29:46,970 --> 00:29:47,770
Speaker 6: you with your mother.

479
00:29:48,530 --> 00:29:53,690
Speaker 3: Oh, Rachel, Oh, Rachel, could you see that at all? No,

480
00:29:53,930 --> 00:29:55,850
Speaker 3: I I this is all news to me.

481
00:29:58,130 --> 00:30:02,370
Speaker 4: Did you do other custody evaluations? Was that a part

482
00:30:02,410 --> 00:30:03,969
Speaker 4: of your practice?

483
00:30:06,050 --> 00:30:08,610
Speaker 3: That may have been one of the first ones, And

484
00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:11,410
Speaker 3: it was at his requests that I did that.

485
00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:16,250
Speaker 11: Initially, it was at Al's request saying, oh, yeah, yeah,

486
00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:24,049
Speaker 11: do you remember any thoughts or feelings that you know,

487
00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:27,489
Speaker 11: maybe it's not appropriate for me to evaluate someone that

488
00:30:27,530 --> 00:30:28,410
Speaker 11: I socialize.

489
00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:32,850
Speaker 3: No, no, not really, because this was in the beginning

490
00:30:33,050 --> 00:30:37,410
Speaker 3: of our arrival, and so we weren't really socializing at

491
00:30:37,410 --> 00:30:37,890
Speaker 3: that point.

492
00:30:39,370 --> 00:30:42,009
Speaker 1: At that point, Joyce and her husband had just arrived

493
00:30:42,050 --> 00:30:45,810
Speaker 1: in town. While her husband taught at the university, Joyce

494
00:30:45,850 --> 00:30:49,050
Speaker 1: did not. She hoped to someday, but she was still

495
00:30:49,090 --> 00:30:52,009
Speaker 1: fairly young, and at the time the only women in

496
00:30:52,050 --> 00:30:56,250
Speaker 1: the psych department were grad students and secretaries. So in Alvin,

497
00:30:56,370 --> 00:30:59,090
Speaker 1: this larger than life figure came asking for a favor,

498
00:30:59,730 --> 00:31:00,810
Speaker 1: it felt hard to say no.

499
00:31:01,530 --> 00:31:06,770
Speaker 3: He was chair of that program, and you know, I

500
00:31:06,890 --> 00:31:13,610
Speaker 3: was new in town. I'm a people pleaser, so I

501
00:31:13,650 --> 00:31:17,610
Speaker 3: think that that added to my vulnerability to Al.

502
00:31:20,530 --> 00:31:20,690
Speaker 8: Well.

503
00:31:20,730 --> 00:31:27,450
Speaker 4: I want to make sure that you know that your

504
00:31:27,490 --> 00:31:29,529
Speaker 4: report recommends that we're split up.

505
00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:34,890
Speaker 1: Joyce takes off her glasses. She places them in her lap.

506
00:31:36,209 --> 00:31:46,010
Speaker 3: Oh wow, I am sorry. I am I never would

507
00:31:46,050 --> 00:31:50,570
Speaker 3: have done something like that, and hearing that I did

508
00:31:51,610 --> 00:31:53,850
Speaker 3: makes makes me feel terrible.

509
00:31:56,250 --> 00:31:58,170
Speaker 4: So that's a that's a surprise to you.

510
00:31:58,890 --> 00:32:04,930
Speaker 3: It's total surprise, and it's totally against everything I believe.

511
00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:12,530
Speaker 3: It's horrifying. I don't know what prompted it or what

512
00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:17,610
Speaker 3: precipitated it. I don't know. I'm sorry.

513
00:32:18,890 --> 00:32:20,050
Speaker 1: But of course there's more.

514
00:32:21,050 --> 00:32:25,170
Speaker 4: You know, we can see al crossing out words and

515
00:32:25,209 --> 00:32:32,290
Speaker 4: phrases that you wrote and then rewriting them in stronger language,

516
00:32:32,570 --> 00:32:37,650
Speaker 4: and then it's that stronger language that's in the final report.

517
00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:47,170
Speaker 3: I'm appalled by that. I hate to keep repeating myself,

518
00:32:47,209 --> 00:32:51,090
Speaker 3: but I am truly sorry that that happened and had

519
00:32:51,170 --> 00:32:57,850
Speaker 3: terrible consequences. I have a stomach ache. I feel terrible

520
00:32:58,209 --> 00:33:01,050
Speaker 3: that it turned out that way. I feel awful that

521
00:33:01,130 --> 00:33:04,410
Speaker 3: I had a pardon that or that I'm perceived to

522
00:33:04,690 --> 00:33:06,729
Speaker 3: have had it. Well, I did, I mean, I can't

523
00:33:06,930 --> 00:33:08,249
Speaker 3: say I didn't if I wrote it.

524
00:33:09,530 --> 00:33:12,370
Speaker 1: This is something Joyce does a few times. She'll start

525
00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:14,850
Speaker 1: to say something like if I did this, but then

526
00:33:14,890 --> 00:33:18,450
Speaker 1: she'll correct herself. Rachel has the report standing by to

527
00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:20,570
Speaker 1: hold to the camera so Joyce can see it for

528
00:33:20,610 --> 00:33:25,850
Speaker 1: herself see her own signature, but that never becomes necessary.

529
00:33:25,930 --> 00:33:29,009
Speaker 1: Even though she doesn't remember, Joyce believes John and Rachel,

530
00:33:29,530 --> 00:33:31,969
Speaker 1: and so she doesn't cop out or quivocate.

531
00:33:32,810 --> 00:33:36,850
Speaker 3: If I if I did something like that, or because

532
00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:40,769
Speaker 3: I did something like that, I'm so sorry you guys.

533
00:33:41,610 --> 00:33:48,130
Speaker 3: There's anything I can do to mitigate in some small way.

534
00:33:48,170 --> 00:33:50,969
Speaker 4: And it means a lot that you say that.

535
00:33:51,370 --> 00:33:57,730
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, And it's not just words, it's it's heartfelt.

536
00:33:58,370 --> 00:33:59,570
Speaker 3: It's really heartfelt.

537
00:34:01,090 --> 00:34:03,370
Speaker 1: Do you do you have any idea why he might

538
00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:05,410
Speaker 1: have turned to you well.

539
00:34:05,290 --> 00:34:11,170
Speaker 3: To control the outcome. I think he was more comfortable

540
00:34:11,170 --> 00:34:13,130
Speaker 3: with women because he could push them around.

541
00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:20,450
Speaker 1: Did you feel used by him?

542
00:34:20,690 --> 00:34:27,130
Speaker 3: Well, I guess he was using me, so yeah.

543
00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:29,010
Speaker 1: Joyce says. The relationship with Alvin was short lived. The

544
00:34:29,130 --> 00:34:31,730
Speaker 1: end came soon after Joyce invited Alvin and a few

545
00:34:31,730 --> 00:34:35,130
Speaker 1: of his psychologist friends to join her private practice. They

546
00:34:35,170 --> 00:34:37,770
Speaker 1: accepted and all began working out of her office.

547
00:34:38,010 --> 00:34:40,969
Speaker 3: And we did that for a while, and then they

548
00:34:41,090 --> 00:34:44,730
Speaker 3: decided that it wasn't appropriate to have a social worker

549
00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:50,450
Speaker 3: in the practice. So they asked me to leave, and

550
00:34:50,610 --> 00:34:56,530
Speaker 3: it was at Elsin's instigation. What he said to me was,

551
00:34:56,610 --> 00:35:00,890
Speaker 3: it's not that you're incompetent. It's just that I don't

552
00:35:00,890 --> 00:35:06,010
Speaker 3: know that you're competent. And you know, for me to

553
00:35:06,050 --> 00:35:10,290
Speaker 3: remember this fifty years later, that's a lot, doesn't it.

554
00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:14,850
Speaker 4: So this was him kicking you out of the practice,

555
00:35:14,610 --> 00:35:18,810
Speaker 4: My practice, my practice, your practice.

556
00:35:27,490 --> 00:35:30,490
Speaker 6: I hear you like, very very very fondly.

557
00:35:30,970 --> 00:35:34,010
Speaker 3: Well, you're kind, you're kind, you're kind.

558
00:35:34,170 --> 00:35:37,090
Speaker 6: You are a nice lady. You're a good person. And

559
00:35:37,370 --> 00:35:39,890
Speaker 6: I see that now too. I mean, I had every

560
00:35:39,930 --> 00:35:41,049
Speaker 6: reason to feel that way.

561
00:35:42,930 --> 00:35:45,130
Speaker 1: Rachel will later tell me that because of the way

562
00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:48,330
Speaker 1: her dad brainwashed her, she often can trust her memories.

563
00:35:48,970 --> 00:35:51,450
Speaker 1: So it feels good that her memory of Joyce is correct.

564
00:35:52,250 --> 00:35:56,050
Speaker 1: Joyce is nice, but Rachel is nice too, and consent

565
00:35:56,170 --> 00:35:57,490
Speaker 1: so badly Joyce is feeling.

566
00:35:58,050 --> 00:36:03,490
Speaker 6: You know, I think my dad was so controlling, and

567
00:36:03,570 --> 00:36:08,810
Speaker 6: I have to think that my dad coerced you and

568
00:36:09,970 --> 00:36:12,730
Speaker 6: really pressured you to do that.

569
00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:23,770
Speaker 3: Thank you.

570
00:36:23,770 --> 00:36:28,530
Speaker 4: You know, hopefully you can tell Rachel and I are okay.

571
00:36:29,050 --> 00:36:32,810
Speaker 6: We're really good parents. We're close to our children. We

572
00:36:32,850 --> 00:36:34,930
Speaker 6: did not replicate any of this.

573
00:36:35,890 --> 00:36:37,970
Speaker 3: Oh, that's wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that.

574
00:36:38,530 --> 00:36:42,210
Speaker 4: And I've been with my wife thirty seven years and

575
00:36:43,170 --> 00:36:46,570
Speaker 4: thankfully now you know, Rachel and I came back together

576
00:36:46,650 --> 00:36:49,210
Speaker 4: on our own and I'm very close with my sister.

577
00:36:50,410 --> 00:36:53,410
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad.

578
00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:58,010
Speaker 1: Damage done to us can often become damage we do

579
00:36:58,050 --> 00:37:02,050
Speaker 1: to others, and on it goes. But watching John and Rachel,

580
00:37:02,250 --> 00:37:04,890
Speaker 1: I'm struck by the way they're breaking that cycle, not

581
00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:07,210
Speaker 1: just in their lives, but right here in the room.

582
00:37:08,290 --> 00:37:09,610
Speaker 1: Well zoom room.

583
00:37:10,490 --> 00:37:15,290
Speaker 4: Just to be clear, Joyce, I really appreciate what you're saying,

584
00:37:15,330 --> 00:37:22,250
Speaker 4: and really really important to me that others just own

585
00:37:22,370 --> 00:37:28,650
Speaker 4: and acknowledge their role in any dynamic, in any interaction.

586
00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:35,690
Speaker 4: If they do that, I'm good. And al never I

587
00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:44,050
Speaker 4: tried in different ways, he would never own any culpability, responsibility, anything.

588
00:37:45,290 --> 00:37:48,130
Speaker 1: When John first became a psychologist, he'd see Alvin at

589
00:37:48,210 --> 00:37:52,770
Speaker 1: various conferences, where Alvin was received as a star. For John,

590
00:37:53,050 --> 00:37:55,290
Speaker 1: it always occasioned a weird mix of pride in his

591
00:37:55,290 --> 00:38:00,610
Speaker 1: father's career and bitterness over his personal rejection. At one conference,

592
00:38:00,930 --> 00:38:03,570
Speaker 1: John attended Alvin's lecture in the hope of forcing his

593
00:38:03,570 --> 00:38:07,090
Speaker 1: father to talk to him. Alvin saw John in the audience,

594
00:38:07,570 --> 00:38:10,290
Speaker 1: but afterwards made him wait on along with all his

595
00:38:10,370 --> 00:38:15,570
Speaker 1: adoring fans. Eventually, John grew frustrated and left.

596
00:38:15,810 --> 00:38:19,530
Speaker 4: It's one of the mysteries of my life how he

597
00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:23,130
Speaker 4: justified or rationalized to himself, you know, having a son

598
00:38:23,530 --> 00:38:29,170
Speaker 4: and supposedly loving him and then just cutting him off

599
00:38:29,210 --> 00:38:33,410
Speaker 4: and rejecting him for the rest of your life. I

600
00:38:33,450 --> 00:38:41,850
Speaker 4: don't I can't fathom that at all. There was an

601
00:38:41,890 --> 00:38:48,730
Speaker 4: email exchange over seven or eight months where I endeavored

602
00:38:48,770 --> 00:38:52,890
Speaker 4: to answer that question, that lifelong question of you know why,

603
00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:57,090
Speaker 4: and he just kept trying to sell me his books,

604
00:38:57,170 --> 00:39:00,009
Speaker 4: and you know it became this refrain, have you read

605
00:39:00,010 --> 00:39:03,170
Speaker 4: my book? Have you read my book? And I'd say,

606
00:39:04,050 --> 00:39:07,529
Speaker 4: if you would like me to read your book, send

607
00:39:07,610 --> 00:39:11,010
Speaker 4: me a copy and I will read it. No, he

608
00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:13,250
Speaker 4: wants me to buy a book. He wanted me to

609
00:39:13,250 --> 00:39:13,850
Speaker 4: buy a book.

610
00:39:21,690 --> 00:39:24,370
Speaker 1: In his emails to John, Alvin wrote that it was

611
00:39:24,410 --> 00:39:27,530
Speaker 1: a sophomoric myth that a parent should seek relationships with

612
00:39:27,610 --> 00:39:32,250
Speaker 1: one's child. I do not accept silly pop psychology truisms,

613
00:39:32,290 --> 00:39:36,370
Speaker 1: he wrote. Near the end of Alvin's life, John wanted

614
00:39:36,410 --> 00:39:38,690
Speaker 1: to make one last effort to see his father so

615
00:39:38,810 --> 00:39:42,290
Speaker 1: Alvin could meet his grandkids, but Rachel counseled John not

616
00:39:42,410 --> 00:39:45,250
Speaker 1: to go. She said that Alvin would refuse to see

617
00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:47,490
Speaker 1: him and was still so full of anger that he

618
00:39:47,570 --> 00:39:51,370
Speaker 1: might even call the police. After his death, Alvin left

619
00:39:51,370 --> 00:39:53,610
Speaker 1: behind a will with a section listing the names of

620
00:39:53,650 --> 00:39:56,730
Speaker 1: those who wronged him. Each person was to receive a

621
00:39:56,770 --> 00:39:59,850
Speaker 1: single dollar. Among them was John.

622
00:40:01,130 --> 00:40:01,330
Speaker 5: Back.

623
00:40:01,330 --> 00:40:04,010
Speaker 1: When I spoke to Al's disciple, Howard, he told me

624
00:40:04,010 --> 00:40:06,090
Speaker 1: that al was bedridden at the end of his life,

625
00:40:06,490 --> 00:40:09,690
Speaker 1: yet he was still focused on his therapeutic method just

626
00:40:09,770 --> 00:40:10,930
Speaker 1: before he passed away.

627
00:40:11,610 --> 00:40:14,770
Speaker 2: When I visited him, he said, Howard, I'm working on

628
00:40:14,970 --> 00:40:17,770
Speaker 2: becoming more of an optimal person. I'm just doing it now.

629
00:40:17,770 --> 00:40:18,730
Speaker 2: And he was like so.

630
00:40:18,690 --> 00:40:22,730
Speaker 1: Energetic, and do you from your perspective, I mean, did

631
00:40:22,770 --> 00:40:25,489
Speaker 1: he achieve that kind of like optimal personhood?

632
00:40:26,610 --> 00:40:28,009
Speaker 2: She said he had.

633
00:40:29,490 --> 00:40:32,010
Speaker 1: When I raised the subject of Alvin's relationship with his

634
00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:35,450
Speaker 1: kids and how that connected to his optimal self, Howard

635
00:40:35,450 --> 00:40:38,010
Speaker 1: says he can't really speak to that. Alvin didn't bring

636
00:40:38,050 --> 00:40:38,890
Speaker 1: up his kids much.

637
00:40:39,490 --> 00:40:42,890
Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff that goes on, sometimes good

638
00:40:42,930 --> 00:40:48,410
Speaker 2: and bad, and you know, that's just what happens in life.

639
00:40:48,770 --> 00:40:52,090
Speaker 2: We live, and we adjust and do what we have

640
00:40:52,210 --> 00:40:55,370
Speaker 2: to do. But I don't think whatever happens at a

641
00:40:55,370 --> 00:40:58,850
Speaker 2: certain point in someone's life should define them for who

642
00:40:58,850 --> 00:41:01,970
Speaker 2: they are as a person overall.

643
00:41:05,610 --> 00:41:07,410
Speaker 3: Can you come back in a little bit, honey.

644
00:41:07,970 --> 00:41:11,130
Speaker 1: A little girl barge's into Joyce's room. She's wearing a

645
00:41:11,210 --> 00:41:14,770
Speaker 1: lacy blue dress that's either a nightgown or a Cinderella costume.

646
00:41:15,010 --> 00:41:17,250
Speaker 3: I'll be with you in a little bit. Thank you.

647
00:41:18,410 --> 00:41:19,930
Speaker 3: That's my six year old granddaughter.

648
00:41:20,450 --> 00:41:21,650
Speaker 6: Thank you.

649
00:41:22,890 --> 00:41:24,570
Speaker 3: We're sheltering in place together.

650
00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:27,090
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's nice.

651
00:41:29,330 --> 00:41:36,850
Speaker 4: I'm very lucky, Joyce. I'm so appreciative. Thank you, Yeah,

652
00:41:36,850 --> 00:41:37,210
Speaker 4: thank you.

653
00:41:40,770 --> 00:41:43,250
Speaker 1: One can believe one is optimal, just as one can

654
00:41:43,290 --> 00:41:46,370
Speaker 1: believe one is fluent in French, a talented singer, a

655
00:41:46,410 --> 00:41:49,570
Speaker 1: good therapist. But the only way to really know is

656
00:41:49,610 --> 00:41:52,890
Speaker 1: through one's relationship with others, the ones who love us,

657
00:41:53,250 --> 00:41:56,330
Speaker 1: who guide us, who let us know when we wandered astray.

658
00:41:57,450 --> 00:42:01,290
Speaker 1: For some realizing your optimal self does not occur in

659
00:42:01,330 --> 00:42:06,810
Speaker 1: spite of other people, but because of them.

660
00:42:06,970 --> 00:42:09,530
Speaker 4: My son is getting married in the backyard. I'm looking

661
00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:10,810
Speaker 4: at a few.

662
00:42:10,650 --> 00:42:13,130
Speaker 3: Weeks and congratulations, thank you.

663
00:42:13,370 --> 00:42:42,010
Speaker 4: It'll be a very small, socially distanced.

664
00:42:48,050 --> 00:42:57,569
Speaker 8: Now that the furnitures returning to it's goodwill home, now

665
00:42:57,650 --> 00:43:02,450
Speaker 8: that the last month's rent is skiming with the damaged

666
00:43:02,770 --> 00:43:05,410
Speaker 8: po take this moment to the so.

667
00:43:08,250 --> 00:43:10,210
Speaker 5: If we meant to flee.

668
00:43:09,890 --> 00:43:18,490
Speaker 8: To from the last.

669
00:43:18,090 --> 00:43:19,170
Speaker 4: Accident and clean.

670
00:43:24,250 --> 00:43:27,250
Speaker 1: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by senior producer Khalila

671
00:43:27,290 --> 00:43:31,130
Speaker 1: Holt along with Stevie Lane and me Jonathan Goldstein. Special

672
00:43:31,170 --> 00:43:35,050
Speaker 1: thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, PJ Vote, Mohemy mcgaucher,

673
00:43:35,290 --> 00:43:39,450
Speaker 1: Nabil Cholimpot, and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lord mixed the episode

674
00:43:39,450 --> 00:43:42,690
Speaker 1: with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson and

675
00:43:42,730 --> 00:43:46,210
Speaker 1: Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website,

676
00:43:46,210 --> 00:43:50,130
Speaker 1: Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by

677
00:43:50,170 --> 00:43:53,370
Speaker 1: The Weaker Thans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on

678
00:43:53,410 --> 00:43:56,770
Speaker 1: Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at Heavyweight at Gimletmedia

679
00:43:56,770 --> 00:43:59,930
Speaker 1: dot com. This is the last episode of the season,

680
00:44:00,330 --> 00:44:02,810
Speaker 1: but do not fear there's still more Heavyweight to come.

681
00:44:03,010 --> 00:44:06,490
Speaker 1: We're doing three check in episodes in December, exclusive to Spotify,

682
00:44:06,730 --> 00:44:10,290
Speaker 1: but absolutely free and very easy to access. I'll be

683
00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:13,050
Speaker 1: joined by producers Khalila and Stevie. There will be a

684
00:44:13,090 --> 00:44:17,050
Speaker 1: conversation with best selling writer Curtis Sittenfeld, and some segments

685
00:44:17,090 --> 00:44:20,210
Speaker 1: that take advantage of the music on Spotify's platform. So

686
00:44:20,330 --> 00:44:22,450
Speaker 1: these are things we couldn't do anywhere else, and we're

687
00:44:22,450 --> 00:44:25,130
Speaker 1: pretty excited about that and we hope you'll find it

688
00:44:25,170 --> 00:44:27,370
Speaker 1: exciting too. See you in December.

689
00:44:28,530 --> 00:44:35,330
Speaker 8: Oh Son in an empty, Son in an out deal