WEBVTT - She Explained Facebook’s Race Problem Via Audit 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.600 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:08.400 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. She is 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:10.920 described our next guest as a pioneer of the corporate 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.520 Civil Rights audit. It's a new tool for getting companies 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:17.680 to confront their role in perpetuating racial disparity. She spent 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:22.000 two years auditing Facebook, specifically her highest profile client to date. 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:24.320 She's also the subject of a story in The Kurnel 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.520 Show Bloomberg Business Week by Bloomberg's Naomi Nicks. Let's bring 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.760 in Laura Murphy. She's national Civil Liberties and Civil Rights leader, 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.280 president of Laura Murphy and Associates, former director of the 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.479 A c l U Legislative Office, and a senior advisor. 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.960 Has been to Airbnb. She joins us on the phone 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.760 from Washington, d C. Laura, it is so nice to 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:45.400 have you here with us. I feel like there's so 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.559 much to talk about on this Friday, and I want 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.320 to start with if I may with some news on 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.240 Airbnb today because they said they came out and said 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.360 it will allow hosts and guests to sue the company 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.520 over claims of sexual assault and harassment. In its listings, 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.559 lifting a mandatory arbitration clause that has been around for years, 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.479 and it's really been buried in it's forty page terms 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:10.880 of service. Uh, for as I said, many years, for 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:13.600 more than a decade to be exact. We talked about 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.280 it earlier on air. You've worked with Airbnb. How do 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.360 you see this news in this latest development, Well, I 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:26.479 think it goes, um. I go it goes a long 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:32.279 way toward the California Statute UM that UM allows women 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:36.679 to sue under various circumstances. UM. I think it's an 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:40.680 outgrowth of a me too movement. UM. I know that 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:45.039 in talking to civil rights leaders, they would like UM 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:52.680 the mandatory arbitration clauses to be lifted for race discrimination 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.880 and other types of claims as well. And so UM, 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.760 it's a start for civil rights leaders. But I think, 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.040 you know, it's a welcome start. But I don't think 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.520 it's going to satisfy all of the critics. And that's 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:09.440 it's interesting that you say that. There was a Bloomberg 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.600 Business Week investigation cover story that talked a lot about 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.280 some of the crimes, violent crimes that have gone on 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.639 and how a lot of people have been prevented from 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.000 talking about it. You know, I want to dig deeper 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.079 and kind of your last thought there. I mean, how 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.240 did we get here in the corporate world of having 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.000 such bad policies on a lot of important issues, especially 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:33.880 when it comes to civil rights. I just think, um, 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:39.359 there's a tremendous lack of awareness, and it's not necessarily intentional, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.680 but I don't think we get um very good education 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:49.160 generally in UM in civics in terms of rights and 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.400 liberties and what they mean in this country. And I 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.320 also think that, um, so there's a lack of awareness, 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.639 but I also think it's so commonplace that it doesn't 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:06.040 stop you from becoming a billionaire, um not having a 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:11.760 background and understanding of how policies and practices may exclude 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.480 certain people based on their race, or their religion, or 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:20.680 their sexual orientation, et cetera. So it's it's just a 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.280 fact of life. It's and and that's why I think 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.760 corporate civil rights audits are needed because they're just too 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.760 many people in positions of power who aren't aware of 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.360 the laws. And if you ask them, Okay, what are 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:40.760 what are my values? Value? Treating people equally and all 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.680 of that, people will give the right answers. But where 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.080 the where the rubber meets the road is is in 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.200 the implementation of those values. So I think a lot 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:55.080 of corporations embrace these values, but they don't test their 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.880 products to make sure that they don't violate the values. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:03.600 For example, there's a lot of concern about facial recognition 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:08.240 software and the fact that it was tested on white men, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.640 and so it really doesn't work on people of different 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:17.800 races and even there are some gender differences. So before 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.080 these products are released to market, they should be tested 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:27.800 across a range of of characteristics so that people are 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.640 not selling products that that harm people. I mean, facial 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:36.039 recognition is used by policing, you know, entities, and so 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.400 this this has dire consequences if it's not right. Right, 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.120 your biased nous kind of prevents you from maybe realizing 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.000 that the data that ultimately goes into some of this 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.560 are a lot of this is biased. Ultimately, what is 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.200 before we get too far into this, We've got about 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.280 a minute and then we'll come back and continue the conversation. 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:59.040 What is a corporate civil rights audit? A corporate civil 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:04.080 rights audit is an independent analysis of a company's business 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:11.680 practices um to identify and correct practices that may have 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:17.440 a discriminatory effect. And that could be with their customers, 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.360 with their employees, with everything, with everything, it could be 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.360 the products that they sell. Uh, you know, is a 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:30.479 is a mortgage product you know sold by bank going 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.240 to have a different impact on one community than it 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:39.839 has on another, an unfair and different impact. UM. So yes, 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:46.200 it's products, it's personnel, it's company values, it's an assessment. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:53.280 The civil rights audit first assesses how these different um, 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.520 how the different verticals within a company are affecting people, 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.160 and whether or not they're having a discrimin in the 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:04.640 tory impact, and whether or not there's a remedy for them, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.920 and what that remedy is. Laura, sit tight for a second. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:09.400 I gotta do a little bit of news. But I 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.000 want to come back and I want to continue the 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:12.960 conversation because I am curious about when you first go 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.520 into a company, whether it's an Airbnb or whether it's 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.120 a Facebook, which you have spent a lot of time with, 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.160 I think a couple of years auditing Facebook. I want 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.760 to know how that goes initially and how it evolves 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.120 as a process. We're gonna come back with Laura Murphy. 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.760 She's president of Laura Murphy and Associates, former director of 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.560 the A C l U Legislative Office, and a subject 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.919 of a Bloomberg Business Week story. She's on the phone 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.800 from the nation's capital. Will continue in just a moment. Hey, 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.799 I want to get back to our guests. We're still 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.599 talking with Laura Murphy. She's, as I mentioned earlier, national 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.840 civil liberties and civil rights leader, president of Laura Murphy 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.080 and Associates, former director of the A C l U 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.400 Legislative Office. She's on the phone from Washington, d C. 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:56.320 And we're talking about corporate civil rights audit. Laura, talk 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.200 to me about your time at Facebook, because you spent 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.640 several years with them. I'm always curious when you first 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.440 go into a company, why did they bring you in? 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:09.200 And you know, what's the initial conversations you have with 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:15.480 management that maybe tell you that their way off the mark. Well, 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.320 um I was brought in because I was suggested by 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:24.280 civil rights leaders as someone who could help Facebook um 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:30.200 UH address a multitude of concerns that had been voiced 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:35.200 over the years by different um civil rights organizations and 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:40.520 um rout ranging from religious groups to LGBT Q groups 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.880 to African American groups, to people with disabilities, all of that, 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.800 and so, UM, you know, there was there was a 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.720 growing frustration in the overarching civil rights community with Facebook, 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.680 and UM, you know, I think a lot of the 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.120 staff wanted the company to address these issues in a 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:07.920 much more substantive way. UM. I was greeted, um with 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.040 enthusiasm by many of the middle managers who had been 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:16.280 fielding these concerns for years. And it took some time 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:20.760 to get the attention of the upper leadership. But once 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:26.520 we did get their attention, UM, we really got down 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.960 to business and I started meeting with leaders in different 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:36.400 verticals and um, you know, people who created products, people 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.280 who were responsible for advertising and marketing, people who were 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:47.559 responsible for enforcing the community standards. UM. It was a 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.680 multi year, multi pronged product where we looked at the 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:57.920 impact of these products and policies and practices on different 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.920 constituencies and users Facebook, and we found that there were 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:09.120 some discrepancies and how people were treated. And again, UM, 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:15.320 this was a very um consultative process. This was not 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:21.679 an antagonistic process. This was uh me saying okay, you've 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.640 got the following three allegations let's find out if they're true. 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.240 If they're true, what do you want to do about them? Um? 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.880 And because are my recommendations? What are your recommendations? And 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.720 you know, a process of consultation to to fix problems. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.840 I like to see myself as a as a problem solver, 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.760 not someone who just identifies problems, right, which is much 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.000 more productive. Right ultimately, and trying to figure out how 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.560 do we get from maybe point A to point z. Uh. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.440 If you will, hey, tell us a little bit about 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:01.880 a meeting that you put that you helped. I guess 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:08.679 the conversation between Facebook executives and civil rights groups, Carol. 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.719 I'm going to answer that question. Um, but I want 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.320 to say something about the process being productive. This is 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.800 a far more productive process than having a regulation come 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:25.319 down from a federal agency or litigation. Um, results happen sooner. 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:30.280 You're not in You're not caught in antagonism. You know 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.520 that keeps you warring with each other. Um, You're not 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.760 caught up in the machinations of the legal system. So 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.840 I think this is a preferable process to some of 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.800 the other processes that have been used over the years 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.839 to advance civil rights. Now, I think civil rights. Litigation 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.120 is important, and lawsuits are important, and regulation are important. 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.480 I'm not saying I'm anti any of that. Actually worked 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.360 for a lot of those laws to come to fruition, 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.800 but I am saying, in terms of really attacking the 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.400 problems with the level of immediacy, this is I think 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.319 this is a good way to go. You know, No, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.320 you know what, forgive me. We we were running out 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.640 of time, and I hope we can have no no 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:14.880 dope because I think what you said was really important, 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.800 because I think we are grappling, especially after the last 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:19.600 year and a half and we've talked so much about 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.439 diversity and inclusion and how we can do things better. 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:27.080 That that I think is a very peaceful, very helpful 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.040 piece of advice in terms of how do we get 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.440 to a better way? Because I was going to ask you, 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:34.600 you know, my last question was, you know, a piece 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.240 of advice for everybody out there, and they can read 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.280 the story and here a little bit more about um 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.360 that meeting. I hope you will come back because I 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.040 think these are important conversations. I think are Bloomberg audience 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.120 knows they are important conversations. I constantly have having conversations 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.880 with Chief executives about you know, their employees and what 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.000 they want and how they can be better, whether it's 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.760 with their own workforce or as you said, you often 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:00.840 are you know, talking about how they reach their customers 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.760 in a better way and more equal way. Um, Laura, 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.200 thank you so much and do come back. Laura Murphy. 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.760 She is president of Laura Murphy and Associates. I'll put 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.200 that Bloomberg Business Week story out on Twitter for you 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:12.719 so you can read a little bit more about her.