Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. She is
Speaker 1: described our next guest as a pioneer of the corporate
Speaker 1: Civil Rights audit. It's a new tool for getting companies
Speaker 1: to confront their role in perpetuating racial disparity. She spent
Speaker 1: two years auditing Facebook, specifically her highest profile client to date.
Speaker 1: She's also the subject of a story in The Kurnel
Speaker 1: Show Bloomberg Business Week by Bloomberg's Naomi Nicks. Let's bring
Speaker 1: in Laura Murphy. She's national Civil Liberties and Civil Rights leader,
Speaker 1: president of Laura Murphy and Associates, former director of the
Speaker 1: A c l U Legislative Office, and a senior advisor.
Speaker 1: Has been to Airbnb. She joins us on the phone
Speaker 1: from Washington, d C. Laura, it is so nice to
Speaker 1: have you here with us. I feel like there's so
Speaker 1: much to talk about on this Friday, and I want
Speaker 1: to start with if I may with some news on
Speaker 1: Airbnb today because they said they came out and said
Speaker 1: it will allow hosts and guests to sue the company
Speaker 1: over claims of sexual assault and harassment. In its listings,
Speaker 1: lifting a mandatory arbitration clause that has been around for years,
Speaker 1: and it's really been buried in it's forty page terms
Speaker 1: of service. Uh, for as I said, many years, for
Speaker 1: more than a decade to be exact. We talked about
Speaker 1: it earlier on air. You've worked with Airbnb. How do
Speaker 1: you see this news in this latest development, Well, I
Speaker 1: think it goes, um. I go it goes a long
Speaker 1: way toward the California Statute UM that UM allows women
Speaker 1: to sue under various circumstances. UM. I think it's an
Speaker 1: outgrowth of a me too movement. UM. I know that
Speaker 1: in talking to civil rights leaders, they would like UM
Speaker 1: the mandatory arbitration clauses to be lifted for race discrimination
Speaker 1: and other types of claims as well. And so UM,
Speaker 1: it's a start for civil rights leaders. But I think,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a welcome start. But I don't think
Speaker 1: it's going to satisfy all of the critics. And that's
Speaker 1: it's interesting that you say that. There was a Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week investigation cover story that talked a lot about
Speaker 1: some of the crimes, violent crimes that have gone on
Speaker 1: and how a lot of people have been prevented from
Speaker 1: talking about it. You know, I want to dig deeper
Speaker 1: and kind of your last thought there. I mean, how
Speaker 1: did we get here in the corporate world of having
Speaker 1: such bad policies on a lot of important issues, especially
Speaker 1: when it comes to civil rights. I just think, um,
Speaker 1: there's a tremendous lack of awareness, and it's not necessarily intentional,
Speaker 1: but I don't think we get um very good education
Speaker 1: generally in UM in civics in terms of rights and
Speaker 1: liberties and what they mean in this country. And I
Speaker 1: also think that, um, so there's a lack of awareness,
Speaker 1: but I also think it's so commonplace that it doesn't
Speaker 1: stop you from becoming a billionaire, um not having a
Speaker 1: background and understanding of how policies and practices may exclude
Speaker 1: certain people based on their race, or their religion, or
Speaker 1: their sexual orientation, et cetera. So it's it's just a
Speaker 1: fact of life. It's and and that's why I think
Speaker 1: corporate civil rights audits are needed because they're just too
Speaker 1: many people in positions of power who aren't aware of
Speaker 1: the laws. And if you ask them, Okay, what are
Speaker 1: what are my values? Value? Treating people equally and all
Speaker 1: of that, people will give the right answers. But where
Speaker 1: the where the rubber meets the road is is in
Speaker 1: the implementation of those values. So I think a lot
Speaker 1: of corporations embrace these values, but they don't test their
Speaker 1: products to make sure that they don't violate the values.
Speaker 1: For example, there's a lot of concern about facial recognition
Speaker 1: software and the fact that it was tested on white men,
Speaker 1: and so it really doesn't work on people of different
Speaker 1: races and even there are some gender differences. So before
Speaker 1: these products are released to market, they should be tested
Speaker 1: across a range of of characteristics so that people are
Speaker 1: not selling products that that harm people. I mean, facial
Speaker 1: recognition is used by policing, you know, entities, and so
Speaker 1: this this has dire consequences if it's not right. Right,
Speaker 1: your biased nous kind of prevents you from maybe realizing
Speaker 1: that the data that ultimately goes into some of this
Speaker 1: are a lot of this is biased. Ultimately, what is
Speaker 1: before we get too far into this, We've got about
Speaker 1: a minute and then we'll come back and continue the conversation.
Speaker 1: What is a corporate civil rights audit? A corporate civil
Speaker 1: rights audit is an independent analysis of a company's business
Speaker 1: practices um to identify and correct practices that may have
Speaker 1: a discriminatory effect. And that could be with their customers,
Speaker 1: with their employees, with everything, with everything, it could be
Speaker 1: the products that they sell. Uh, you know, is a
Speaker 1: is a mortgage product you know sold by bank going
Speaker 1: to have a different impact on one community than it
Speaker 1: has on another, an unfair and different impact. UM. So yes,
Speaker 1: it's products, it's personnel, it's company values, it's an assessment.
Speaker 1: The civil rights audit first assesses how these different um,
Speaker 1: how the different verticals within a company are affecting people,
Speaker 1: and whether or not they're having a discrimin in the
Speaker 1: tory impact, and whether or not there's a remedy for them,
Speaker 1: and what that remedy is. Laura, sit tight for a second.
Speaker 1: I gotta do a little bit of news. But I
Speaker 1: want to come back and I want to continue the
Speaker 1: conversation because I am curious about when you first go
Speaker 1: into a company, whether it's an Airbnb or whether it's
Speaker 1: a Facebook, which you have spent a lot of time with,
Speaker 1: I think a couple of years auditing Facebook. I want
Speaker 1: to know how that goes initially and how it evolves
Speaker 1: as a process. We're gonna come back with Laura Murphy.
Speaker 1: She's president of Laura Murphy and Associates, former director of
Speaker 1: the A C l U Legislative Office, and a subject
Speaker 1: of a Bloomberg Business Week story. She's on the phone
Speaker 1: from the nation's capital. Will continue in just a moment. Hey,
Speaker 1: I want to get back to our guests. We're still
Speaker 1: talking with Laura Murphy. She's, as I mentioned earlier, national
Speaker 1: civil liberties and civil rights leader, president of Laura Murphy
Speaker 1: and Associates, former director of the A C l U
Speaker 1: Legislative Office. She's on the phone from Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: And we're talking about corporate civil rights audit. Laura, talk
Speaker 1: to me about your time at Facebook, because you spent
Speaker 1: several years with them. I'm always curious when you first
Speaker 1: go into a company, why did they bring you in?
Speaker 1: And you know, what's the initial conversations you have with
Speaker 1: management that maybe tell you that their way off the mark. Well,
Speaker 1: um I was brought in because I was suggested by
Speaker 1: civil rights leaders as someone who could help Facebook um
Speaker 1: UH address a multitude of concerns that had been voiced
Speaker 1: over the years by different um civil rights organizations and
Speaker 1: um rout ranging from religious groups to LGBT Q groups
Speaker 1: to African American groups, to people with disabilities, all of that,
Speaker 1: and so, UM, you know, there was there was a
Speaker 1: growing frustration in the overarching civil rights community with Facebook,
Speaker 1: and UM, you know, I think a lot of the
Speaker 1: staff wanted the company to address these issues in a
Speaker 1: much more substantive way. UM. I was greeted, um with
Speaker 1: enthusiasm by many of the middle managers who had been
Speaker 1: fielding these concerns for years. And it took some time
Speaker 1: to get the attention of the upper leadership. But once
Speaker 1: we did get their attention, UM, we really got down
Speaker 1: to business and I started meeting with leaders in different
Speaker 1: verticals and um, you know, people who created products, people
Speaker 1: who were responsible for advertising and marketing, people who were
Speaker 1: responsible for enforcing the community standards. UM. It was a
Speaker 1: multi year, multi pronged product where we looked at the
Speaker 1: impact of these products and policies and practices on different
Speaker 1: constituencies and users Facebook, and we found that there were
Speaker 1: some discrepancies and how people were treated. And again, UM,
Speaker 1: this was a very um consultative process. This was not
Speaker 1: an antagonistic process. This was uh me saying okay, you've
Speaker 1: got the following three allegations let's find out if they're true.
Speaker 1: If they're true, what do you want to do about them? Um?
Speaker 1: And because are my recommendations? What are your recommendations? And
Speaker 1: you know, a process of consultation to to fix problems.
Speaker 1: I like to see myself as a as a problem solver,
Speaker 1: not someone who just identifies problems, right, which is much
Speaker 1: more productive. Right ultimately, and trying to figure out how
Speaker 1: do we get from maybe point A to point z. Uh.
Speaker 1: If you will, hey, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 1: a meeting that you put that you helped. I guess
Speaker 1: the conversation between Facebook executives and civil rights groups, Carol.
Speaker 1: I'm going to answer that question. Um, but I want
Speaker 1: to say something about the process being productive. This is
Speaker 1: a far more productive process than having a regulation come
Speaker 1: down from a federal agency or litigation. Um, results happen sooner.
Speaker 1: You're not in You're not caught in antagonism. You know
Speaker 1: that keeps you warring with each other. Um, You're not
Speaker 1: caught up in the machinations of the legal system. So
Speaker 1: I think this is a preferable process to some of
Speaker 1: the other processes that have been used over the years
Speaker 1: to advance civil rights. Now, I think civil rights. Litigation
Speaker 1: is important, and lawsuits are important, and regulation are important.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm anti any of that. Actually worked
Speaker 1: for a lot of those laws to come to fruition,
Speaker 1: but I am saying, in terms of really attacking the
Speaker 1: problems with the level of immediacy, this is I think
Speaker 1: this is a good way to go. You know, No,
Speaker 1: you know what, forgive me. We we were running out
Speaker 1: of time, and I hope we can have no no
Speaker 1: dope because I think what you said was really important,
Speaker 1: because I think we are grappling, especially after the last
Speaker 1: year and a half and we've talked so much about
Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion and how we can do things better.
Speaker 1: That that I think is a very peaceful, very helpful
Speaker 1: piece of advice in terms of how do we get
Speaker 1: to a better way? Because I was going to ask you,
Speaker 1: you know, my last question was, you know, a piece
Speaker 1: of advice for everybody out there, and they can read
Speaker 1: the story and here a little bit more about um
Speaker 1: that meeting. I hope you will come back because I
Speaker 1: think these are important conversations. I think are Bloomberg audience
Speaker 1: knows they are important conversations. I constantly have having conversations
Speaker 1: with Chief executives about you know, their employees and what
Speaker 1: they want and how they can be better, whether it's
Speaker 1: with their own workforce or as you said, you often
Speaker 1: are you know, talking about how they reach their customers
Speaker 1: in a better way and more equal way. Um, Laura,
Speaker 1: thank you so much and do come back. Laura Murphy.
Speaker 1: She is president of Laura Murphy and Associates. I'll put
Speaker 1: that Bloomberg Business Week story out on Twitter for you
Speaker 1: so you can read a little bit more about her.