Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Yea, let's get to the latest on the Middle East.
Speaker 2: This morning, the Justice Department charging six senior Hamas leaders
Speaker 2: with terrorism and conspiracy to kill Americans, days after six
Speaker 2: hostages were killed in Gaza. The charges including counseling to
Speaker 2: the groups October seventh sold on Israel, as well as
Speaker 2: a string of other attacks going back more than a decade.
Speaker 2: The Attorney General Merrick Garland, citing the death of a
Speaker 2: twenty three year old it's re any American in his statement,
Speaker 2: joining us now to discuss the state of this war
Speaker 2: and the future. Is Ron Dermer, Israel's Minister of Strategic Affairs, Minister,
Speaker 2: welcome back to the program Sir. I think we're all
Speaker 2: very very focused on where we are in truce talks,
Speaker 2: and we'd like to start the conversation there if we can.
Speaker 2: This came out from the Times of Israel just reporting
Speaker 2: just moments ago that the Prime Minister Netanya, who sent
Speaker 2: the moss At chief to Dohart to inform the Katari
Speaker 2: PM that Israel is still prepared to fully withdraw from
Speaker 2: the corridor between Egypt and guard in a deal with
Speaker 2: second phase. Could you confirm this morning, Forest Minister, whether
Speaker 2: that reporting is accurate or not.
Speaker 1: No, I think just to explain to your viewers what
Speaker 1: we're talking about, because there's been so much misreporting and
Speaker 1: half reporting. Understand that Israel currently occupies this corridor which
Speaker 1: is between Egypt and Gaza, and that corridor, when it
Speaker 1: was left open and when Israeli forces were not there,
Speaker 1: was used as a supply route for all of the
Speaker 1: arms coming into Gaza. That's how they got armed. Their
Speaker 1: other borders actually are with Israel, and so the arms
Speaker 1: did not come from Israel. They came through that border,
Speaker 1: and Israel took over the Philadelphia Corrider in the last
Speaker 1: two or three months and also the rough crossing, and
Speaker 1: that has blocked all the arms and weapons from going
Speaker 1: into Hamas the deal that is proposed on the table
Speaker 1: phase one of that deal. Israel has made clear, and
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister made clear in a televised press conference
Speaker 1: a couple of days ago, and I'm sure he'll speak
Speaker 1: to the foreign press as soon as well, that Israel's
Speaker 1: not going to withdraw from that line. We won't withdraw
Speaker 1: off that quarter because if we do that, then you're
Speaker 1: going to see those weapons come back phase one of
Speaker 1: this steal. What it calls for, Jonathan is to have
Speaker 1: negotiations over the conditions over a permanent cease fire. And
Speaker 1: once you've concluded those negotiations while you're in a cspire
Speaker 1: for phase one in order to get to phase two
Speaker 1: and a permanent cease fire, that's when you can discuss
Speaker 1: long term security arrangements on the Philadelphia quarters. So I
Speaker 1: think that report is a little bit misleading, thinking that
Speaker 1: in a few weeks Israel's going to leave. But it
Speaker 1: is true that Israel's committed to actually negotiating this steal.
Speaker 1: We've been committed from the beginning. When the President put
Speaker 1: forward a proposal based on a May twenty seven document,
Speaker 1: he put forward a proposal on a speech at the
Speaker 1: end of May. Israel said yes, Kamas said no. Then
Speaker 1: the US put forward a final bridging proposal, which they
Speaker 1: called it a final bridging proposal. In the middle of August,
Speaker 1: we said yes, Kamas said no. Kamas has not been
Speaker 1: interested in moving ahead to close the deal. They were interested,
Speaker 1: frankly a Jonathan for the last several weeks an escalation
Speaker 1: in the region. They wanted Hisbola to attack Israel. They
Speaker 1: wanted Iran to attack Israel, and I think now they're
Speaker 1: hoping that somehow Israel's government will make compromise that it
Speaker 1: wasn't prepared to make it before. And I can assure you, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: in the wake of the horrific execution of six hostages,
Speaker 1: including an American Hirsch Goolbert Poland, Israel is not going
Speaker 1: to make concessions in the wake of that. We are
Speaker 1: committed to a deal. We set people to sit with
Speaker 1: negotiators to try to get that deal done, and I
Speaker 1: hope we can do it. We're working with the US
Speaker 1: administration to try to push that deal forward the Minister.
Speaker 2: As you know, we're very focused on acuracy here at Bloomberg.
Speaker 2: So you said that rapport with slightly misleading. Can we
Speaker 2: just reconfirm the aspect of it that was misleading and
Speaker 2: you could you confirm whether in a second phase Natangna,
Speaker 2: who has ultimately sent the Mossad chief to Dohat to
Speaker 2: inform the Katari PM the inn second phase, you are
Speaker 2: willing to fully to withdraw from that car of door.
Speaker 1: We don't. I cannot talk about the arrangements in a
Speaker 1: second phase because we haven't even negotiated about it. Who
Speaker 1: is going to be there. How long is it going
Speaker 1: to take until I'll make it very simple for you, Jonathan.
Speaker 1: Until we have an actual practical solution on the ground
Speaker 1: for the Philadelphia Corridor, Israel forces cannot leave, and for
Speaker 1: the last twenty years we haven't had that. We had
Speaker 1: Egyptian presidents and they announced that their policy was to
Speaker 1: stop the smuggling that would go into Gaza. We had
Speaker 1: that in Mubarik, we have that in CC today. What
Speaker 1: happened on the ground was a different matter. When Morcy
Speaker 1: was the president, you remember from the Muslim Brotherhood, was
Speaker 1: the president of Egypt. A highway of weapons came into Gaza.
Speaker 1: So the question is not necessarily Egyptian policy at the
Speaker 1: top levels. It's what's happening on the ground. What are
Speaker 1: you going to do on the ground to prevent that
Speaker 1: border from being a poor supply route for weapons to Comus.
Speaker 2: Because we have minister is an obvious question. If I
Speaker 2: may jump pitser and just interjack because I'd love some
Speaker 2: charity for on this minnester, if I just want to
Speaker 2: squeeze this said that you can complete your thoughts, sir,
Speaker 2: just quickly. If you can trust Egypt to mediate the talks.
Speaker 2: Why can't you trust them to secure the border. Isn't
Speaker 2: that a contradiction that we need to try and reconcile.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. By the way, Qatar is
Speaker 1: also a mediator talks, and Qatar has been harboring in
Speaker 1: financing Kamas for a long time and frankly financing the
Speaker 1: Muslim Brotherhood all over the world, and also promoting a
Speaker 1: lot of Famas propaganda, which is anti Semitic, anti American
Speaker 1: through their state controlled television station Al Jazeera. So I
Speaker 1: don't think those two are necessarily go hand in hand.
Speaker 1: The fact is, for the last twenty years since Israel
Speaker 1: left in the Disengagement, a move that was applauded by
Speaker 1: the whole world, we left that quarter called the Philadelphia Quarter,
Speaker 1: we left the border between Egypt and Gaza. We have
Speaker 1: not had a solution on the ground. I'm not questioning
Speaker 1: the intentions of the Egyptians. I'm questioning the results and
Speaker 1: all of Israel saw it. October seventh could not have
Speaker 1: happened without that border being open, and so Israel now
Speaker 1: has closed that and until we have an actual practical
Speaker 1: solution on the ground that is working. After twenty years
Speaker 1: of failure. Israel can't leave that line. Minister.
Speaker 2: I need to follow up on one other aspect of this,
Speaker 2: and that's the division that might be emerging in the
Speaker 2: Israeli government. There was another report and by all means,
Speaker 2: if this didn't have and you can sell me it
Speaker 2: didn't happen. But your Defense Minister tell the Security Cabinet
Speaker 2: the following quote, the fact that we prioritize this corridor
Speaker 2: the cost of lives of the hostages is a moral disgrace.
Speaker 2: So how do you respond to that, that voice coming
Speaker 2: from the rhym government.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not going to get into private conversations a
Speaker 1: security cabin and I will just tell you that the
Speaker 1: Security cabin of which I am a member, there are
Speaker 1: ten of us in that cabinet. Eight of us voted
Speaker 1: to support the Prime Minister's position, one of us voted
Speaker 1: to obstain, and one voted to oppose. And he made
Speaker 1: a very clear position that Israel was not going to
Speaker 1: leave that quarter. And that is a position, by the way, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: that is in my view, supported by the overwhelming majority
Speaker 1: of the Israeli people. I believe it is wrong to
Speaker 1: say it's either staying in the corridor or saving the hostages.
Speaker 1: It's not true. There are many other aspects to this
Speaker 1: deal that haven't been resolved. The United States is working
Speaker 1: diligently to try to resolve it with the other mediators
Speaker 1: and with us. Hopefully we can get there. But it
Speaker 1: is clear that in Phase one, Israel will stay on
Speaker 1: that line until we have a prack to quote solution
Speaker 1: on the ground that we can convince the people of
Speaker 1: Israel will know that what happened on October seventh will
Speaker 1: not happen again, that Tahamas will not be rearmed. They
Speaker 1: will not have an opportunity to do again and again
Speaker 1: October seventh, which is what they're saying. That's what they're
Speaker 1: saying today, Jonathan, that's what they intend to do. We've
Speaker 1: cut off the supply lines of weapons. We're not going
Speaker 1: to open that supply line without having a solution on
Speaker 1: the ground that works.
Speaker 3: Minister, can we go back to this Phase one agreement?
Speaker 3: A few weeks ago, Secretary Blinken was an Israel and
Speaker 3: he said there was a very constructive meeting he had
Speaker 3: with Net and Yahoo and confirm that Israel supports that
Speaker 3: bridging proposal. Then just this week President Biden said net
Speaker 3: Yahoo was not doing enough. How do you manage what's
Speaker 3: coming out of the United States? What exactly does the
Speaker 3: US want to see from Israel? And why is Israel
Speaker 3: not complying?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that just the facts are emory. As
Speaker 1: I said. There was a proposal put forward in May,
Speaker 1: Is said yes, Hamas wasn't interested in talks. They added
Speaker 1: so many changes, around two dozen changes to that proposal.
Speaker 1: Then there was another bridging proposal in August, which was
Speaker 1: the one that Secretary State Blincoln was referring to. I
Speaker 1: was in his meeting with the Prime Minister and it
Speaker 1: was a very constructive meeting, and Hamas said no to that.
Speaker 1: And the reason why Kamas said no at that time
Speaker 1: to any offer on the table is they wanted Hesbela
Speaker 1: and Iran to attack us and to create a regional war.
Speaker 1: That's what they wanted to do on October seventh, and
Speaker 1: they wanted to do it in the last several weeks.
Speaker 1: My hope would be hopefully that the potential of a
Speaker 1: regional escalation is in our rearview mirror, and we can
Speaker 1: get down and see if we can finish these talks.
Speaker 1: What the last thing that is, what was going to
Speaker 1: do is in the wake of the execution of six hostages,
Speaker 1: is to make concessions that it would not have made before.
Speaker 1: That is not going to happen. In fact, all the
Speaker 1: Israeli security cabinet was united that Hamas is going to
Speaker 1: pay a heavy price for that decision, because if we
Speaker 1: don't do that, not only is it going to be
Speaker 1: dangerous forget to a hostage deal, They're going to start
Speaker 1: killing hostages, thinking that if you kill hostages, you get consessions.
Speaker 1: We're trying to get as much as we can on
Speaker 1: the same page of the Americans. I think we've been
Speaker 1: there for the last couple months. Hopefully we'll continue, and
Speaker 1: I think when the US and Israel show no daylight
Speaker 1: between that and when all the pressure is directed where
Speaker 1: it should be on FAMAS, I think the chances of
Speaker 1: getting to a deal go way way up, and I
Speaker 1: hope we can get there in the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 3: Is your understanding that right now what the US is
Speaker 3: putting on the table and these discussions, in these conversations
Speaker 3: is quote, take it or leave it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. The bridging proposal that was put forward
Speaker 1: on August sixteenth was a final bridging proposal. So I
Speaker 1: don't know if this will be a final, final bridging proposal.
Speaker 1: Then we'll get a final, final, final bridging proposal. It
Speaker 1: might be that they're talking about specifics and details, because
Speaker 1: this is a kind of framework agreement and there's still
Speaker 1: a lot of things to be negotiated. Again, the problem
Speaker 1: in the negotiation is not just the Philadelphia Quartered. There
Speaker 1: are several things, maybe a half dozen things that have
Speaker 1: to be closed in order to get to a deal.
Speaker 1: Right have not seen and I want to repeat this again,
Speaker 1: at no point has Tamas agreed to any deal that's
Speaker 1: on the table. They have rejected everything. We had one
Speaker 1: movement of Thamas, which was in early July, where they
Speaker 1: understood that there's not going to be an end of
Speaker 1: the war as an entry ticket into a deal. There
Speaker 1: will be a temporary cease fire of six weeks, and
Speaker 1: then during that temporary cease fire, we're going to have
Speaker 1: to negotiate what would be the conditions of a permanent
Speaker 1: cease fire. The Philadelphia Porter and how you block weapons
Speaker 1: from going into Gaza is an important part of that.
Speaker 1: We're willing to negotiate all of that, and we're willing
Speaker 1: to get into that first stage of the deal, Tamas
Speaker 1: made that change. I don't know if they still actually
Speaker 1: agree to that. But on the other issues, there are
Speaker 1: still pretty significant gaps that have to be closed, and
Speaker 1: the US is trying to do that. I will tell
Speaker 1: you that the Justice Department's decision yesterday was a very
Speaker 1: good decision to put pressure on Flamas. Hopefully the other
Speaker 1: people internationally and regionally will put as much pressure on
Speaker 1: Flamas as possible because Israel's government wants to get to
Speaker 1: a deal. Believe me, Israel's government wants to get to
Speaker 1: a deal. What we're not willing to do is go
Speaker 1: to a deal that's going to endanger the security of
Speaker 1: ten million Israels. But we were willing to do a deal,
Speaker 1: and we hope we can get there as soon as possible.
Speaker 3: The minister, you're saying you want to get to a deal,
Speaker 3: but just this morning your National Security Minister Ben vere
Speaker 3: came out on Twitter and said, quote, I'm acting to
Speaker 3: halt negotiations with Hamas. So is that not accurate.
Speaker 1: That's not the position of the government of Israel or
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister. As I've told you, we have different
Speaker 1: views of different government ministers were and the Prime Minister
Speaker 1: encourages people to say exactly what they think in all
Speaker 1: these meetings. But then you come to a vote and
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister's position, which is, we're willing to get
Speaker 1: to a deal. We want to get to a deal.
Speaker 1: We have red lines that we have to keep, but
Speaker 1: we want to get to that deal to bring those
Speaker 1: hostages back up. Until this point, we remember on October seventh,
Speaker 1: there were two hundred and fifty hostages that were taken.
Speaker 1: We've succeeded in bringing one hundred and fifty hostages back.
Speaker 1: One hundred and ten of them or so have been alive.
Speaker 1: And I tell you that the murder, the execution of
Speaker 1: these six hostages was gut wrenching for all the people
Speaker 1: of Israel, no matter where they are in the political spectrum.
Speaker 1: And you probably may have had them on the show
Speaker 1: Rachel and John Goldger poland what they have done in
Speaker 1: raising awareness about the plight of the hostages in their
Speaker 1: dignified struggle and heroic struggle really for their release. It
Speaker 1: was a major, major blow and a lot of Israelis
Speaker 1: are angry, and I can understand that. I think that
Speaker 1: the anger has to be directed against Hamas in order
Speaker 1: for us to get to a deal. And yes, there
Speaker 1: will be people who will vote against the deal. I
Speaker 1: believe some of my colleagues in the government will vote
Speaker 1: against the deal, but the overwhelming majority backs of the
Speaker 1: country and also of the government, backs the Prime Minister's
Speaker 1: position and wants to get to a deal.
Speaker 2: I'm going to say you've been very generous with your time.
Speaker 2: Before we let you go, just a quick question. Will
Speaker 2: the Prime minist to be attended in the UN General
Speaker 2: Assembly later this month in New York.
Speaker 1: I believe he will, But you know, with what happens
Speaker 1: in our region in the Middle East, you'd never know.
Speaker 1: I think he intends to go there, and hopefully we
Speaker 1: can make that happen and he'll have a chin. It's
Speaker 1: just as he addressed the American people in the Congress
Speaker 1: a couple of months ago. Have a chance to address
Speaker 1: the world about how we move forward in this region
Speaker 1: and how we can move from this catastrophe that happened
Speaker 1: on October seventh, to move towards a different future for Israelis,
Speaker 1: for Palestinians, and for everyone in the region.
Speaker 2: Place like the Prime Minister and no, we would love
Speaker 2: the opportunity to sit down with him later on this month.
Speaker 2: Sir Minister, thank you very much for your time Runtown
Speaker 2: with Daddy is around. Minister A Strategic Affairs