WEBVTT - The Manta Ray, Part 3 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:14.840 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:16.120 name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.639 And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:23.200 three in our series on the genus mobula, the manta rays, 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.520 and the devil rays. In part one of the series, 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:30.240 we talked about the original inspiration for covering this topic, 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:32.479 which was that Rob you and your family got to 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:37.120 see reef manta rays in person while snorkeling in Indonesia 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.400 this summer, which sounds like an amazing experience. 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.760 Yeah. Again, it almost is too much to describe, but yeah, 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.080 we jumped out of the boat. This is after an 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.159 initial snorkeling in another coral rich area, and then they 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.040 took us out to a manta ray cleaning station, which 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:57.880 we're going to get into in this episode. If you 0:00:57.880 --> 0:00:59.440 don't know what a cleaning station is, you're about you're 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.520 going to find out. It is not like a service station. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.280 It is not an artificial, human made thing. When I 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.600 don't remember when this was, but the very first time 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.959 I heard about cleaning stations in the water for organisms, 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:14.559 it made me think, oh, well, they installed a big 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.000 rotating brush in the water and it draws in the 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.000 fish because cleaning stations. Again, we'll get into all the 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:22.959 details of this. It is a place where if you 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.480 know where the cleaning stations are, then you as divers 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.080 or snorkelers can go there and you have an increased 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.080 chance of seeing the various organisms that make use of it. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.119 Unfortunately, I had a much bloodier picture in my mind, 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.600 but I think fish and cleaning station. I think of 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.400 like a gutting station where the guys there like ripping 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:40.920 the guts out of the fishy. 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.080 Cot Well, you know, there's a little bit of that 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.160 sprinkled in. We'll get into it, but yeah, basically, we 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:51.200 second stop on this snorkeling this morning snorkeling trip that 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.520 we did, and they took us out to a cleaning 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.320 station and we jumped in the water and it was, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.520 you know, this just reef environment was but it was 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.040 much deeper than we'd been in, a little darker than 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.360 we'd been in. And I sometimes get a little nervous 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.240 when we're talking about like deeper water and bigger things 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:11.440 in the water. But seeing these large reef mantis going 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.520 about their business doing some loops here and there, even 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:19.000 it was magical. You just felt absolutely at peace with them. 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.440 So after that. In the first episode, we also talked 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.200 a bit about the history of human interactions with manter 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.880 rays and devil rays. We got into old misconceptions that 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:33.560 manter rays are threatening to human boats and divers that's 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:38.040 not true, and relatively new misconceptions that their body parts 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.960 have medicinal value. Of course, both of these false beliefs 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.720 leading to harm to manta and devil ray populations by humans, 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.120 and we also talked about ongoing conservation efforts to protect 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:53.760 the world's remaining rays. We discussed some basics of manter 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.639 ray biology, including their body design, feeding habits, and their 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.720 tendency to breach the water's surface leaping up in the air. 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.880 In part two of this series, we followed up on 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.880 stories from an older marine biology article that told of 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.760 mantas and devil rays taking hold of the anchor lines 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.640 and mooring lines of a boat and dragging the boats 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.280 out to sea, and we discussed how it seems this 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.520 can happen and sometimes does actually happen, but it's clearly 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.400 not intentional on the part of the manta, and we 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.600 got into some biological reasons that mobulid rays are prone 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.320 to getting tangled in loose lines in the water. We 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.800 also talked about some recommended methods for making mooring lines 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.720 safer for rays. After that we got into mobulid reproduction, 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:42.720 which is really fascinating the way they engage in internal 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:48.640 fertilization and viviparity, meaning sort of full body contact, sexual intercourse, 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:53.280 and live birth respectively, so making them, as in so 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.920 many other ways, kind of superficially resembling of mammals, even 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.120 though they are fish not mammals. And we also got 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.760 into the elaborate fitness displays that males go through in 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.000 these sort of mass chain races before the female finally 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.960 chooses her mate. And today we're here again to talk about. 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.320 More that's right, and the place I'd like to pick 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:19.080 up is discussing manta rays and their parasites, And there's 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:23.280 some bleed over here into other mobulate parasite loads as well. 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.640 Some of the information you know applies to devil rays 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.760 and so forth, and a lot and as we've been discussing, like, 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.120 there's a lot more known about the ins and outs 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:36.640 of reef manta rays as opposed to the oceanic manta rays, 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.279 which are the largest. So you might remember back to 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:44.240 our episode about the gray whale, and like the basic 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.719 observation that large marine animals often have to deal with 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.760 sizeable parasite loads, or if not actual parasites, then creatures 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:56.040 engaged in some degree of mutualism either way you slice it, 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.320 large marine organisms tend to attract a fair number of 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:04.000 hangers on and they become mobile environments for these various organisms. 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.520 In the case of gray whales, am I remembering right, 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.560 that barnacles would tend to attach to the outside of 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.160 the gray whale, Like the gray whale becomes a substrate 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.280 that is useful for the barnacle because they need something 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.719 solid to attach the bottom of their body to. And 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:21.560 then also by moving through the water, the whale you know, 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.920 brings food to them, essentially allowing water to flow past them. 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.800 Right, And as we discussed in those episodes like there's 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.520 there was on one hand a strong case to be 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.760 made that oh, well, these these the poor whales are 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.560 just covered with these barnacles, like a ship with barnacles 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.360 gaining no benefit from it. But then we also explored 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:42.160 a hypothesis that proposed that well, actually there are some 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.440 potential benefits to having these barnacles on your body. 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.360 Yeah, the question was do the barnacles form a kind 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.839 of armor of sorts That was not known for sure. 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.320 To be clear, that was like a possibility, but I 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.640 think it was more likely assumed that it is sort 0:05:57.640 --> 0:05:59.880 of a net negative to the whale to have all 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:01.000 the particles on it. 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:06.400 Yeah, but this similar conversation often occurs around these discussions 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:11.799 of symbiosis and mutualism and parasitism, questions about who's getting 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.080 the most out of this relationship, is it unbalanced? To 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:16.880 what degree is it unbalanced? And you see it go 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.479 various directions where arguments end up being made that what 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.359 is thought of as a parasite might actually have some benefits, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.960 and you and the opposite something that seems like there's 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.000 a beneficial give and take, and maybe it's a little 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.760 less beneficial than we used to think it was. At 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.640 any rate, it's definitely the case with the manta ray 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.440 that they have a lot of hangers on and they 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.720 vary greatly. Mantas have to contend, for instance, with tiny 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:48.680 copa pod parasites that get literally everywhere on them. Meanwhile, 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:53.200 you also have things like harmless juvenile golden travelerfish which 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:57.240 just ride the pressure wave and alongside the creature, and 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.280 in the same way that sometimes dolphins are seen to 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.560 ride along side ships. But as far as I'm to understand, 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.120 they don't pose any risk or damage to the manta rays. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:08.840 And then they split when they're old enough to fin 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.960 for themselves, and then you have these sucker plate headed 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.640 remorras to continue with. And there's sometimes a little harder to. 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.600 Figure out sort of gray area here. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.680 Yeah, sometimes, I mean again, this is often the case 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.480 the deeper you look into any of these relationships. But basically, 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.320 if you're not familiar with the remorra, ramorra's dorsal fin 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:33.000 has evolved into an oval slatted sucker organ, so like 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.760 by flexing the little slats on there, they can suction 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:42.000 onto a surface such as the side of a whale 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:46.120 or a shark or you know, a turtle or a 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.360 ship or a human diver. I think it occurs occasionally. 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.559 They're free swimming fish, but they like to hitch a ride, 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.360 and there are many different species, and yeah, they attach 0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:01.160 to all sorts of organisms, including manta rays, and indeed 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.000 they've been known to take up more or less permanent residents, 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:09.120 sometimes inside a manta's mouth or hide in other body 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.960 openings such as gills or the cloeca. They typically feed 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.840 on the ectoparasites and loose skin flakes and other leavings 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.280 of an organism. And yeah, it seems to be what's 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.600 happening with manta rays. Not every variety of remora that 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:26.640 latches onto a manta can keep up with it, can 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.320 remain with the host, especially as it ventures into deeper waters. 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.520 Some get displaced, And in general, it seems like the 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.240 longer a manta hangs out in a shallow reef environment, 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.000 the more it's liable to attract ramoras. So that's the 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.960 case I've read with certainly the reef manta over the 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:48.120 oceanic manta. And then it's also the case with mantas 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.640 hanging out closer to shallow waters due to some particular 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.720 state of their own life cycle. Now, the book that 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:56.840 I keep referring to in these episodes Guide to the 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.640 Manta and Devil Rays of the World by Stevens, Fernando Dando, 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:05.880 and Discaria. In this they point out that scientists often 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:10.280 cleanly label this relationship between the remoras and the manta 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.640 rays as parasitic are arguing there's no real benefit for 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.160 the mantis here. For instance, the gill activity going in 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.040 and out of the gills can result in heavy scarring 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:24.320 for example, essentially like mutilating the gills over time. Now, 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.720 others argue, well, the remorras does seem to do some 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.360 level of cleaning though they're eating up parasites, you know, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.480 dead skin flakes, and this, they would point they point out, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.920 would be helpful, especially to the oceanic manta, as it 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.480 frequents cleaning stations far less as we'll be discussing. Cleaning 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.360 stations tend to be you know, in reef environments, and 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:48.240 if you're out there in the middle of it, there 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.160 are fewer of these around. So perhaps the assistance in 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.800 these cases would balance out the harm at least to 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.440 some degree. Maybe it's not. I mean, I don't know 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.880 how often you really see a fifty to fifty split 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.920 with these relationships in nature, Like you know, there's there's 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.599 gonna be you know, all the factors of evolution and 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.840 behavior or in play here, and it's this is ever 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.120 the question when we're pondering relationships like this. 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.520 So for a very rough analogy, It's kind of like 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.120 if you had a squirrel that lived on your body 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.880 and it climbed all over you, eating the fleas that 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.000 you also have eating the fleas and mosquitoes that swarm 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.800 your skin. So that's good, you don't want the fleas 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.680 and mosquitos. But also the squirrel's claws are like scratching 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.440 you up, and it's probably causing problems while you're trying 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.959 to move around. So you get a plus an a minus. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:39.559 Yeah, I mean it always reminds me of the Doctor 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.800 Seuss book Thidwick the Big Hearted Moose. This is it's 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.560 not a situation where Fidwick's dealing with parasites and creatures 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.680 eating the parasites, but he's he has a big heart, 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.360 and he keeps letting animals ride in his antlers until 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:53.199 it gets out of hand. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:54.720 I feel like it's got to be one of the 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.200 less big hearted Doctor Seuss books. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:02.840 Yeah, the message there is maybe a little less less rosy, 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.679 but I don't know. I do come back to it 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:08.880 and think about it from time to time. Though you 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.880 know that in the Sleep book, I guess really really home. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.240 But at any rate, this is the case with large 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.839 organisms like this, there's just much more space for ectoparasites 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.320 to get everywhere, and parasites have their own parasites. Filter 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.920 feeders also swim around with their mouths wide open while feeding. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.800 You know, they're bringing organisms into their mouth and that 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:35.480 can bring in extra creatures as well, So you know, 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.200 what is a manta to do. Breaching may help, as 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.439 we discussed, as it may help with other marine organisms. Again, 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.559 as we just mentioned, they can shake some of their 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.160 hangers on via their deeper dives. But at the end 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.000 of the day, they're going to need some help. They 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:53.920 can't turn to each other. They don't really have much 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.000 in the way of you know, limbs. They can't groom 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.720 each other in the way that say primates do. So 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:12.200 they're going to have to head to the cleaning stations. 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.040 All right, So we're finally here. Tell me about the 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:16.400 cleaning stations, all. 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.360 Right now, I want to add a caveat I am 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.560 very likely to accidentally call a cleaning station a feeding station. 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.679 I've been doing this in casual conversation over and over 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:29.800 again over the past several weeks, perhaps in part because 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.920 for the fish working and some I'm shrimp working at 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.800 these cleaning stations. It is a feeding station because that's 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.240 what they're doing. They're feeding, that's what they're getting out 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.320 of it. Ultimately, were talking about a cleaning symbiosis situation 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.800 that benefits all of the organisms involved, and it's not 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.360 unique to mantus. You'll find the scenario throughout the aquatic environment, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.640 both in fresh water and saltwater. Fish deal with their 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.880 individual parasite loads in a variety of ways, but it's 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.400 often useful to get some help. These relationships have developed 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.920 over time in which fish will seek out areas populated 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:08.400 by various other organisms that generally we're talking and certainly 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.680 in marine environments about small reef fishes. Also sometimes some 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.640 shrimp are involved in this, and there are various examples 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.040 of this outside of the water as well. For instance, 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.920 on land, examples such as the crocodile and the Egyptian 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.960 plover or crocodile bird have been observed since ancient times. 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:30.000 You can find like Herodotus writing. 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.360 About this and still cute to see today. 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.200 Yeah, this is the bird that goes inside the crocodile's mouth, 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.200 holds the mouth open, goes in there and starts doing 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:42.480 some dental cleanup. The Egyptian plover by the way, not 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:48.280 to be confused with Egyptian lever. That's a that's a 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.120 musical artist, a legendary musical artist that I've referenced on 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.760 the show before. Look it up, kids. The oxpecker is 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.080 a great example from the surface world as well, a 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.880 bird that feeds exclusively on the bodies of large mammals, 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.319 though this one is also much discussed in scientific circles 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.240 because it's definitely a case where there are strong arguments 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.600 to be made that the oxpecker might not ultimately help 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.960 the organism that it's landing on all that much, and 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.360 might be as much of a nuisance in and of 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.680 itself in the ocean. To return to the waters, however, 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.600 you see various fish take advantage of these services, including 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.800 the parrotfish, which were previously discussed on the show. So 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:26.840 you don't have to be a behemoth to benefit from 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.440 a visit to the various organisms that want to eat 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.760 your parasites, as well as perhaps some loose, dry skin 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.000 or rancid flesh around your wounds. In fact, some cleaners 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.280 are specialized wound cleaners. But naturally, when you're a large 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.560 fish riddled with parasites, you know you can't scratch those 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.600 itches again, so manta rays have to head to these stations, 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:51.480 and it seems again, it seems to work for everyone. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.240 Small Fish and shrimp can't swim as far or do 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.640 so safely in search of food, so they'll, you know, 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.080 they set up at a cleaning station. Generally this is 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.960 like a rocky outcropping the edge of a reef or 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:07.000 you know, something like that, and here they can just 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.400 hang out and their meals will be delivered to them 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.200 because the customers will show up. They will go where 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:14.880 the cleaner organisms. 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.920 Are right, So by being easy to locate and offering 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.200 a service, they can have this dependable influx of resources 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.960 from abroad. It almost makes me think about like the 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.680 economies of I don't know, freeway exits where there will 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.360 be you know, gas stations and restaurants built up around 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.720 a freeway exit, like you know the traffic's coming in. 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.240 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean that you often see this 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.040 compared to like a trip to the barber, the dentist, 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.400 and so forth, all wrapped into one. Because yeah, they'll 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.040 they'll get inside the mouth to clean out the teeth, 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:52.080 they'll clean out gills, they'll eat away algae. Growths, dead 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:56.480 and molting skin, bacterial fungal growths, you know, getting food 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:01.200 particles out of the mouth. It's really quiet extensive. And 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.600 then these are generally small organisms that are doing this, 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.480 so they can target those tiny acto parasites and seek 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.320 them out all over the host's body in every every 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.760 crevice yum yum. And so the mantas actually the kind 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.800 of queue up for this. If one of the bits 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.640 of advice that the the the Snorkel guides had for 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.520 us was was, you know, among all the reasons not 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:25.680 to get too close is you also don't want to 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.960 essentially enter the cleaning station, not because the fish are 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.000 going to clean you, but because the mantas are going 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.200 to be like, oh, it's occupied, I can't go in there, 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.200 Like you're taking up room. It's like you've pulled into 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.520 the car wash ahead of people who want their car cleaned. 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:41.080 What would they do? 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:42.640 Would they patiently wait their turn? 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.880 Maybe? Or potentially clear? I mean also the humans being 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:49.840 where they need to be. I think they're a number 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:51.960 of reasons that they might sort of scare them off. 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.800 You know, yeah, like you're too loud with your flippers, 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:56.800 you're coming out of the water too much. I think 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.480 in general they might just decide well, another time enough 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.080 to bring it back to Fidwick, the big hearted moose. 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.760 I you know, I don't think he ever considered visiting 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.000 a wolf cleaning station or something for all of those 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:12.359 various mammals and birds living on his antlers. Now. As 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.280 discussed before, again, symbiosis is a spectrum and it can 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.280 shift with either party reaping more of the benefits and 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.760 in some cases perhaps taking a bit of advantage, at 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.520 least from the human perspective. So some cleaner species do 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.879 seem to agage engage. This is in general in occasional 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.600 acts that feel more parasitic, like maybe they're you know, 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.879 they're eating parasites, but maybe they're eating a little body 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.600 mucus off of the surface of a fish or aquatic 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.920 creature as well. You know, maybe they're grabbing a little 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.959 flesh that's less on the rancid side, but you know, 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.159 just because they can. So, you know, I guess to 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.959 answerpomorphize the scenario, there are always going to be some 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.159 bad actors, maybe some folks who take advantage of the 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.439 trust in a given scenario. But I think still on 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.960 the whole, even with the cases, cleaning stations seem to 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.680 benefit everyone, even if sometimes there's a little advantage taken. Yeah. 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:11.199 Well, and all kinds of organisms have symbiotic relationships that 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.680 are sort of balanced on a knife's edge like this. 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:15.800 I mean, I would say it's true of us with 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.960 our own microbiota. You know, of course, human beings rely on, 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.760 for example, our gut flora in order to do all 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.000 kinds of things you know, to be healthy, to help 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.359 with digestion. So we're definitely worse off without it. We 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.040 need it, but at the same time, it can turn 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.680 opportunistic and it can harm us if you know, there's 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.919 something wrong with the immune system or other kinds of 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:38.040 conditions come online. 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.479 Now, there are some additional levers that the manta ray 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.199 can pull and stevens that I'll get into this in 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.120 the guide book. These are things that the manta will 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.240 also do it feeding stations, which it makes sense. The 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.040 manta knows that it is at a location where the 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:59.040 local population is heavily invested in in the manta's parasites, 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.000 its previous meals, and so forth. So first of all, 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.360 they frequently defecate at these cleaning stations, makes sense, I mean, 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.919 with all creatures, and stuff that's defecated is going to 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.560 include things that are still of interest to various scavenging creatures. 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:20.440 They will also cough or vomit, blasting particles like food 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.760 particles out of their mouth, which cleaners are also going 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.960 to be interested in. And Steven said all right that 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:32.159 sometimes they blast out massive clumps of undigested zooplankton exoskeletons. 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.240 I don't have a photograph to refer to, but I 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.120 just have like a mental image of what this might 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.760 look like. And then back to their defication. They'll also 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.639 invert their intestines up to thirty centimeters or twelve inches 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.800 out of their cloaca while they're doing it, just to 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:53.359 better clean everything out that's feces, but also parasites, presumably 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:58.960 indo and ectoparasites, And interestingly enough, their feces i've read 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.359 is basical dark red due to all the plankton. So 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.800 when they do this, if you're in the water with them, 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.159 and you know, they don't care if you're in the 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.640 water when they when they do this, they're gonna they're 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.480 they're gonna let loose as needed. This process has often 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.280 been misinterpreted by divers as like they don't know what 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:17.840 they're looking at. It looks like it might be blood 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.280 or something. Maybe they're injured, or in some cases they 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.160 might think they're about to view a berth, which makes 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.560 sense when you look at We talked about this video 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.760 footage in the last episode from an aquarium in Okinawa, Japan, 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:34.760 where we see one of the very few recordings of 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.360 a manta giving birth, and it does like like this 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:44.480 initial discharge of particles in the water. I can see 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:46.399 where you might confuse the two acts. 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.639 A burrito in the middle of a cloud, and then 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:49.960 the burida unfolds. 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.520 Yeah, so that might be a case where someone's like, oh, 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.280 I think it's giving birth, but then you realize, oh, 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.320 there's no baby. It's it's just a cloud of red 0:20:57.440 --> 0:20:58.400 manta fecal matter. 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.200 They're just out part of their own intestines to get 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:03.000 it all cleaned out. 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.080 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, all right, Joe, I believe there's 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.440 at least one more organ we want to talk about 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.960 inside the manta's body, right, that's right. 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.160 We wanted to come back to the subject of manta 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.440 brains and intelligence, so we already talked in previous parts 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.720 of this series about how when people have close encounters 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.680 with manta rays they often report similar feelings. You'll read 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.719 about this in people describing their dives with them. The 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.439 manta is a fish, but it does not feel like 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.520 a fish when you're in its presence. It has a 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:42.639 kind of palpable intelligence and emotionality, a sense of curiosity 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.720 that we generally only associate with social mammals and maybe 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:51.560 sometimes with other strange intelligences like that of an octopus, 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.040 but certainly not with fish. You'll read about this over 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.960 and over with these manta experiences. Now, of course, that 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:03.080 feeling of being in communion with a higher intelligence, it's 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.920 just a subjective impression people have. Could be an illusion. 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.920 Maybe it's based in some kind of esthetic charisma, something 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.080 about the way the manta looks, or something about the 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.880 way it moves. The question would be, is there any 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:21.560 objective scientific reason for thinking there's actually something special about 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:26.199 the intelligence of the genus mobula compared to other fish. 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.520