1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Mary was out. After twenty years, twenty years of uplifting 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: moments of spiritual grace, twenty years of vexing questions about 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: her vocation. Mary Johnson put on her Paisley skirt and 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: gold blouse and stepped out of the convent in Rome 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: and into a van. This was it. Mary left the 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity. Her sister picked her up from the 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: airport in Houston. On the way to her house, they 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: made a stop. Mary would be living outside the convent 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: for the first time in decades, and her sister said, 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: she need a few things. I need to pick up 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: a mattress for you. I didn't know if you like 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: the hard ones or the soft ones. Mary wasn't used 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: to getting to choose a mattress, let alone having a 14 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: real mattress. As a missionary of charity. They'd stuffed their 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: own mattresses with wool or whatever was around, and it 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: was only about three inches thick. And here I was 17 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: going to get to choose my own mattress from this 18 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: enormous selection. So that was kind of weird. Then her 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: sister had an their errand in mind, she had a 20 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: pool at her place, and she knew how much Mary 21 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: loved the water, at least when she was a kid. 22 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: So of all things to do after twenty years in 23 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: a convent, they went some suit chopping. I mean, most 24 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: of my body hadn't seen the son in twenty years. 25 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: And there I was going to get a swimming suit, 26 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: and I was just so embarrassed and like, I wouldn't 27 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: let her come into the dressing room with me. And anyway, 28 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: we found a swimming suit that fit end and brought 29 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: her home. Mary had her own room, and even though 30 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: so much was new, new mattress, new swimsuit, new bedroom, 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: she still automatically woke up at four or forty every morning. 32 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: It was like she was still in sync with the 33 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: community she had left as an MC. She felt that 34 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: sense of community from the moment she woke up. But 35 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: now early in the morning she just lay there quietly alone. 36 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: She might even go back to sleep. And she liked 37 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: that too. No l was going to ring, that was 38 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: going to force me out of bed and onto my knees. 39 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: That was really nice. I could choose what I wanted 40 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: to get up. First thing each morning, Mary went to 41 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: her sister's pool and swam. It felt luxurious, It felt free. 42 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: You can take off the habit and grow your hair 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: and start walking around like a regular person. But inside, 44 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: being a missionary of charity leaves a very, very very 45 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: deep mark. And for me, I've been there for twenty 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: years and so deeply immersed. Separating wasn't just simply a 47 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: matter of of leaving from a cocoa punch. And I 48 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: heard radio, this is the Turning America Lands Part ten. 49 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: Out there the world had changed since Mary Johnson became 50 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: a missionary of charity in the late seventies. Some things 51 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: she had a reference point for, but a lot of 52 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: it was completely foreign. Pumping your own gas going to 53 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: be a t m using a computer. One time, my 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: niece made popcorn in the microwave, and I thought the 55 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: house was going to explode because I had no idea 56 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: what that was. I had no idea these noises. Popcorn 57 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: in the microwave was a revelation. When she left the order, 58 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: a sister gave her four German marks, the equivalent of 59 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: a little more than two hundred dollars for her twenty years. 60 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: I looked at that deposit slip and I thought, look 61 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: at that. They gave me eleven dollars for every year 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: of services. Oh my gosh, talk about a minimum wage 63 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: a year, eleven dollars a year. Mary still trusted in God, 64 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: but that wasn't going to pay the bills. One of 65 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: her first jobs was at J. C. Penny in December, 66 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: the Christmas rush. I was used to to silence and prayer, 67 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: and here it was Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer and 68 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: Frosty the Snowman playing all the time. And it was 69 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,239 Speaker 1: all these people with credit cards buying gift after gift, 70 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: and a lot of the stuff in the gift department 71 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: were useless Chatski kind of things, you know, these little figurines. 72 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: I couldn't figure out why people wanted little figurines. I 73 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: was used to repairing broken toys to give to kids 74 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: who would otherwise have nothing on Christmas. It was strange. 75 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: It was strange for me. Mary still remembers the first 76 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: time she went out to eat in a restaurant. Her 77 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: sister took the whole family out to dinner. I was 78 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: faced there with this menu, with all these choices. It 79 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: took me forever to make up my mind. I didn't 80 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: know if I would ever again, and you know, have 81 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: a chance to choose what I was going to eat. 82 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: It was like this momentous decision. I think everybody was 83 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: getting kind of nervous with me because I wasn't making 84 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,119 Speaker 1: up my mind, and the waiter had to come back, 85 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: and then eventually I ordered something. As Mary mapped out 86 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: her new life, her mind wandered back to Tom Father. 87 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: Tom had made the thought of leaving possible. He had 88 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: helped her imagine a life outside the convent. They pictured 89 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: waking up together, making coffee, holding hands in public without 90 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: guilt or shame. He'd given her a taste of a 91 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: fuller life, and she knew that's what God wanted for her. 92 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: When Mary asked the MCS for ex claustration that year 93 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: of contemplation before officially leaving the order, she had called Tom. 94 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: He had asked her, does this mean you would consider 95 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: marrying me? She couldn't tell if he meant it. It 96 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: was such an awkward proposal, but she needed time. Now 97 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: she was in Texas, out of her sorry and away 98 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: from the convent. So at a certain point I knew 99 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: I was ready to talk to him, and that if 100 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: he was going to ask, actually, really directly, if I 101 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: would consider marrying him, I was ready to entertain that notion, 102 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: so she called him. It was the first time they talked, 103 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: and she left, but once she got him on the phone, 104 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: it was clear Tom had decided to remain a priest. 105 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: I definitely had to honor that. That's that's what he wants, 106 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: That's that's the way it is. And yeah, how did 107 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: it feel to hear that? I was prepared to hear that, 108 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: you know it it was. It was kind of sad, 109 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: you know, it kind of shut one door for me. 110 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: There's very often even if something said, if it comes 111 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: to a certain sense of clarity, it's a kind of 112 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: a gift. I appreciated the clarity that was. That was good, 113 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: and she moved on, still trying to hear what God 114 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: had to say. When Mary left the Missionaries of Charity, 115 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: she had work to do, not just finding a way 116 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: to make money or learning how to use technology. She 117 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: had to face the way the m c s had 118 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: changed her internally. She told me about a time she 119 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: was staying at a religious center. She had moved out 120 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: of her sister's house after a couple of months, and 121 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: she found the center with sabbatical programming and wellness treatment 122 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: for clergy. It was around this time that she noticed 123 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: how muddled her emotional responses were. I was talking with 124 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: the sister who was in charge of the place, and 125 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: it was some thing very sad or upsetting. I don't 126 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: really remember what I was talking to her about, but 127 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: I remember that I was. I was very sad, and 128 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: I felt like I wanted to cry about. What came 129 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: out was these giggles and this laughter. It was like, 130 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: I don't know how to express my emotions properly anymore, 131 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: because missionaries of charity are not supposed to be sad. 132 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: You're supposed to be cheerful all the time. You're supposed 133 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: to smile. And I had just been disconnected from what 134 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: I might be feeling inside. How to express that I 135 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: didn't know, And so whenever there was something said, I 136 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: was like laughing instead of crying. I think that one 137 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: of the big things that I've been working on for 138 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: many decades now is trying to reconnect my emotions and 139 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: their expression, trying to reconnect my mind and my body, 140 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: trying to be fully connected. I have been consciously working 141 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: on that. In a way, she had to relearn how 142 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: to think and how to feel. God had called her out, 143 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: but in the real world, it would take time to 144 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: shift her mindset. She had to untangle guilt and questions 145 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: about faith, come to terms with her relationship with Mother Teresa. 146 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: There is no one moment, no final epiphany. Mary was 147 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: at that center for priests and nuns when Mother Teresa died. 148 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: I found out from one of them who had heard 149 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: it on television, and it was it was a shock. 150 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: It was very hard to mourn Mother Teresa's passing alone 151 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: without the sisters. Why well, you imagine someone who's very 152 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: close to you in your family, and perhaps you're own mother, 153 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: and when she dies, you can't be with the family. 154 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: You have to be off on your own, by yourself. 155 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: That's hard. I had tried to call the sisters in 156 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: Rome many times, but never managed to get through. Of course, 157 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: the phone there was always busy, even during regular times, 158 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: so when mother died, even more so I never managed 159 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: to get through. A few days after Mother Teresa died, 160 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: there is a memorial celebration at a cathedral in Houston. 161 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: Mary went and sat in the back. In his homily, 162 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: the bishops spoke about how he met Mother Teresa once 163 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: when her plane had a layover in Houston, and he 164 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: spent about half an hour with her, and there I was, 165 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: who had known and followed and loved her for twenty years. 166 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: In the back, she knelt in the pew and cried, 167 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: and it all felt so strange. They had a big 168 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: picture of her up at the front, and after nearly 169 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: everyone had gone, I went and stood in front of 170 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: that picture. For a long time I did. I felt 171 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: like I had lost a family member or someone who 172 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: knew me, someone who I cared for, someone who cared 173 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: for me. Of course, my last conversation with mother had 174 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: been very, very difficult, so that's also kind of hard 175 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: knowing that somehow I had disappointed her. That feeling did 176 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: not go away easily. Over the course of your life, 177 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: there are times when you have to leave things behind, 178 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: maybe a relationship, a job, your family, home. Leaving the 179 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: m c S is all of those at once, and 180 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: that's just the first step. Then you have to make 181 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: your own way. I mean, the first couple of weeks 182 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: you're just happy to be back with great meals and 183 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: a great bed and you know, incredibly loving people around you. 184 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: But for me, the other piece of the pain is 185 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: you're gone for so long and you're trying to come 186 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: back into your family and so many years of their 187 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: connections and growth and life you are not a part of. 188 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: Sue Webber is the sister who ran the AIDS hospice 189 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: in San Francisco. Even now, for me, there's elements, and 190 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: they're not good or bad. I think they're just I 191 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: think it will always be that way where you're you know, 192 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: you're a part of the family and you're super connected. 193 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: But there's an element that there's so much that you 194 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: missed in that journey that you're a lot of time 195 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: was on the outside looking in. People don't really know 196 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: what you've been through. How could they? How do you 197 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: describe what it's really like inside a closed community led 198 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: by celebrity sat How do you get past people's assumptions. 199 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: When Sue first left, she still wore her sorry. She 200 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: was still weighing what to do, go back to the 201 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: m CS or leave. She'd moved to her hometown in 202 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania to live with her parents. She says, when you 203 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: wear the white and blue sorry, everyone notices you. You know, 204 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: people would stop you on the street and be like, 205 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: can I touch you? It's like people didn't see her. 206 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: They saw what she wore and what that represented. They 207 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: saw a Mother Teresa. The Mother Teresa they thought they knew, 208 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: and that got in the way of her decision making. 209 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: I couldn't come to any clarity unless I took off 210 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: the habit and was seen. So she wrote to the 211 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: m c's and got permission to wear street clothes. Sue's 212 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: sister Joan, has been out of the MCS for more 213 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: than three decades. She still has a picture of Mother 214 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: Teresa in her office. I love her to death, and 215 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: she is I consider I have certain saints in heaven 216 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: that I love and read about and call out to 217 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: and you know, ask for divine intervention many times. She's 218 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: one of them. So it was weird for her when 219 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: she was teaching a religion class for kids and a 220 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa impersonator came by. She puts an outfit on 221 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: that looks like Mother Teresa's outfit, and then she like 222 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: hangs laundry, and then she kind of tells the story 223 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: of Mother Teresa's life. I don't know, it's really weird. 224 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: It's just you look at her and you're like, I 225 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: can't even explain it. It's like, you know what the 226 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: demeanor of of a Mother Teresa none is you know 227 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: what it looks like and what they do and really 228 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: do you know? You know, you're sitting there and you're like, Okay, 229 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: that's not true, that's not true. You know what I mean. 230 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: It's like they try to understand by her readings or 231 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: her or things that have and written about her, but 232 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: they really don't know, and so it wasn't there. That's 233 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: all I used to saying. It's weird for me to 234 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: watch someone portray mother Teresa. Sue and Joan both new 235 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa. It's a comfort that they can talk about 236 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: their time in the missionaries of charity and they get it. 237 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: It's part of what makes them close. There's not many 238 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: people that understand the missionaries of charity, and no matter 239 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: how many times you try to explain it, a lot 240 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: of people look at you like you're weird because of 241 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: the penances that you did and didn't understand where we 242 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: were coming from when we did the penances. So so 243 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: I don't share my I really do not share my 244 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: story because people can't relate. If you haven't had the experience, 245 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: you can't relate. Mary Johnson doesn't usually tell people she 246 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: was an m C. It's just easier not to go 247 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: there where It usually comes up actually as people will 248 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: ask me where are you from, because I still have 249 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: a slight accident in my voice, and I'll say, well, 250 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, I I was born in Michigan. Um kind 251 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: of grew up in Texas as you don't sound like that, 252 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: And then you know, eventually I get around to saying 253 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: something very vague, like, well, I lived for a number 254 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: of years in an international community where we all spoke English, 255 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: but hardly anyone as their first language, and I had 256 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,239 Speaker 1: to develop a way of speaking so they could understand 257 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: me with clear vowels and clear consonants, and they'll look 258 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: at me with this big question mark on on their faces. 259 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: And sometimes I just have to explain what I did 260 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: with my life for twenty years. And when I do, 261 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: people who aren't Catholic, they say, oh, what a wonderful 262 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: thing to have done with two decades of your life. 263 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: And tell me about mother Teresa. What was she really like? Nearly, 264 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: without exception Catholics, they say why did you leave? Because 265 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: there are some acceptable reasons for leaving in some that aren't. 266 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: I had so much shame. Kelly Dunham, the former sister 267 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: who's a stand up comic. I felt rejected, like Jesus 268 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: gave up on her offer to give her life to him, 269 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: And now here she was on the outside with no money. 270 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: And I really didn't have any skills. I didn't have 271 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: any more skills that were applicable to the American workplace. 272 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: Like I was two years old and I had almost 273 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: a four year gap in employment history. That was hard 274 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: to explain, you know. And I remember I had a 275 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: composition notebook that had like all the jobs I was 276 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: applying to, and I'd cut out a New Yorker cartoon 277 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: and it was a guy doing a job interview, and 278 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: he said, am I a team player? Are you kidding? 279 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: I was in a cult? And I had crossed out 280 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: cult and put convent uh. And that cartoon actually helped 281 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: me a lot, because I felt so alone. When she 282 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: first left, she was embarrassed about leaving, but over time 283 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: she feared being judged for joining in the first place. Yeah, 284 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: I was more closeted about it. I didn't know anybody 285 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: else who was an ex nun. And then as I 286 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: started going to something called the Conference for Catholic Lesbians, 287 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: and the whole thing was full of X nons. Kelly 288 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: was done to learn just how many lesbian x nuns 289 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: there were. They had pool parties and prayed the Rosary, 290 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: which I thought was like such a great thing to 291 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: do at a pool party. And then at some point 292 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: everyone took off all the clothes and went swimming, and 293 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: I was like, this is great. This is than the convent, 294 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: this is really great. When Colette Livermore left the m 295 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: c s and went home in Australia, mother Teresa sent 296 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: her letters asking her to come back. She talked little 297 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: cards inside them. Three times she sent me, uh God, 298 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: depicting a crossed figure. In the illustration, Jesus was covered 299 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: in wounds and bleeding, with his hands tied, with her 300 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: riding at the bottom, saying be the one. But Collette 301 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: didn't go back. It's edge pursued what she dreamed of 302 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: as a teenager. She went to medical school. Most of 303 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: her classmates were thirteen years younger than she was. She 304 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: says in med school she learned to think again, to doubt, 305 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: to analyze the evidence rather than to give unquestioning assent 306 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: to what she was told. But even as her world 307 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: view shifted, she still felt the shadow of her eleven 308 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: years as an MC. In med school, she avoided telling 309 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: people she'd been a sister with mother Teresa. They treated 310 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: her differently if they knew, and instead of volunteering for procedures, 311 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: she'd find herself hanging back hoping she wouldn't be selected. 312 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: My confidence was gone. I was very unassertive as well. 313 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: You know in classes, who got all these young people 314 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: around you bringing with self confidence and they want to 315 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: have a go as a doctor. For a while she 316 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: worked in Northern Australia and every week or two she'd 317 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: fly two hundred and eighty miles on a mail carrier 318 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: to a remote settlement and treat the Aboriginal community there. 319 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes Collet work alongside EMC sisters. On a rare occasion, 320 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: when Colett got a chance to eat a meal with them, 321 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,479 Speaker 1: they asked her why she left. She explained, and Collett 322 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: found that they too had experiences when superiors told them 323 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: to refuse help to the sick. She was relieved it 324 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: validated her experience. Collett's professional life was fulfilling. Her work 325 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: as a doctor was busy and she got a chance 326 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: to travel and experience cultures that were new to her. 327 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: Her life was full, but the empty imprint was there. Well, 328 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: I haven't married, I would have liked to have. I 329 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: was really really wanting to find a life partner, but 330 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: it just it just didn't happen. Do you think the 331 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: missionaries of charity had affected some of that? Was it 332 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: timing or also just kind of it took a while 333 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: to break out of that mindset, do you think? Or Oh? 334 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: I think it was both. I know I did want 335 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: a partner and to have kids because the biological clock 336 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: was ticking, I had very poor self confidence. I mean, 337 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: lots of people leave the comment and find partners the 338 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: next day, so I don't know what it is with me. 339 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: That's what I chused to wonder. But yeah, I didn't anyway, 340 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: and I'd get very sad and thinking everyone can find 341 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: a partner except me, what's wrong with me? Blah blah 342 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: blah and so. But I got over that in a while. 343 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, if it happens, it happens. But 344 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: never did. Oh, everybody gets a lonely Sometimes I'd get 345 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 1: hope from friendships, and I find hoping. You know, my 346 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: nephews had a new little girl. She's beautiful. I've got 347 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: a great nieces and I find a lot of solace 348 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 1: nature and beautiful things when I go bush walking and 349 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: seeing flowers and beautiful vistas of the sea. All that 350 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: makes me feel happy. You get those moments where you're 351 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: just there and it's everything. The most important thing is love. 352 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: Everything you can do to strengthen that is the most 353 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: valuable thing. I would have been happy to date there. 354 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: Nobody was interested in me. I really stuck out in 355 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: Southeast Texas. You know, I wasn't really kind of dating 356 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: material also in the beginning, and I was still trying 357 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: to figure things out for a while. Mary Johnson toyed 358 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: with the idea of starting her own community, one for 359 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: women and men, open to many faiths, even those with 360 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: no faith. It would be only the good parts of 361 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: the MCS, a life focused on love and serving the poor. 362 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: She ended up working a number of different jobs. She 363 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: ironed clothes, worked as a receptionist in a doctor's office, 364 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: and as a liturgical director at a church. She went 365 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: back to college and then went on to graduate school 366 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: to study writing, and that's where she met Luke and 367 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: we just had an immediate connection. About three years after 368 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: she left the m c S, Mary was at a 369 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: ten day writing residency. On her first day, she was 370 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: overwhelmed and intimidated the people she met, pontificated about authors 371 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: she'd never heard of. At lunch, a charming but shy 372 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: fellow residence that opposite her, they started talking. Luke was 373 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: a doctor, but he was studying poetry. He'd gotten frustrated 374 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: with parts of being a physician, like dealing with insurance companies, 375 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: and he felt like studying poetry was a way to 376 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: restore his soul. And I wouldn't even say that we 377 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: ever really dated. It was this one week together. I 378 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: went back to Texas and uh, you know, within a 379 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: couple of months he was inviting me to move in, 380 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: and that was it. Mary says Luke was a good listener, creative, quirky, 381 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: the type of person who wants to keep growing, always 382 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: improving with time, getting deeper better. Somehow they could talk 383 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: for hours. Moving in with Luke for the first time 384 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: put on display how many habits from MC life were 385 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: still a part of Mary. She apologized constantly for things 386 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: that didn't matter, because that's what she did for twenty years. 387 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: If you broke a plate as a missionary of charity, 388 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: you had to kneel down and kiss the floor and 389 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: confess your fault for having busted displayed, and so you know, 390 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: I was apologizing. I was asking permission for things that 391 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: nobody asks permission for. You know, it wouldn't be all 392 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: right if I have a cup of tea. Now we're 393 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: you know, just ridiculous things. But it took a long 394 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: time for a lot those things to fall away for me. 395 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: Getting closer with Luke allowed to process some of her 396 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: darker times with the MCS. She says he recognized what 397 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: she was struggling with, partly because of his past experience. 398 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: In college, he worked on a crisis intervention hotline and 399 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: he had also been on a board of an abused 400 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: women's shelter, so he was very familiar with the cycle 401 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: of women who get get stuck in abusive relationships of 402 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,239 Speaker 1: one sort or another. And I think he saw my 403 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: relationship with the Church, with Mother Teresa, with Jesus as 404 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: having a lot of those elements of abuse, and how 405 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: very often that abuse can be something that actually strengthens 406 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: the bond between the abuser and the abused, reinforcing feelings 407 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: of guilt, reinforcing an unequal power dynamic, um holding you 408 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: captive in one sense or another. So I think he 409 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: understood all of that even more clearly than I did. 410 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: Mary was racked with guilt for disappointing Mother Teresa, for 411 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: turning her back on her vows in the convent. She 412 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 1: had rituals that helped with the guilt, and she had 413 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: the discipline. Without those, it lingered, and she couldn't hide 414 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: it from Luke. At one point, I was still feeling 415 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: all this guilt for all sorts of things. One day 416 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: I said, beat me, beat me. And he knew about 417 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: the discipline. He had seen the callouses on my knees, 418 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: he'd seen the scars on my arm. He he knew 419 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: that history there and helped me in his arms for 420 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: a long time. And I cried, And you know, it 421 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: took a while for the guilt to go away. It 422 00:26:52,040 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: took a long while. Yeah. When Mary left the Missionaries 423 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: of Charity, she often dreamt about the sisters she'd left behind. 424 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: They weren't happy dreams. She'd be in a tunnel trying 425 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: to run away, the sister is chasing her. Or she'd 426 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: be in a house with the sisters and they'd block 427 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: all the exits so she couldn't get out. When I 428 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: awake from those dreams, so I realized there's this icky 429 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: residues still kind of stuck to me, and I can't 430 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: get rid of this goopy, tary stuff that's clinging, you know, 431 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: to me metaphorically. When she moved to Vermont to be 432 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: with Luke, she stopped going to church every week. She 433 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: was still religious, but things just didn't feel as sure 434 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: as they used to. I began to feel more and 435 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: more that the church, in many ways just wasn't making 436 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Now she had a chance to 437 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: explore her own spirituality, to reclaim faith for herself, to 438 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: find a way to relate to God without that relationship 439 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: being mediated by rituals and rules. It was liberating, but 440 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: it was also confusing. So it was just a couple 441 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: of years after I had left the Sisters, and I've 442 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,239 Speaker 1: been through so many different changes. I was trying to 443 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: figure out, you know, do I even believe in God anymore? 444 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. And it was confusing because there has 445 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: been all these promises about how God was going to 446 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: take care of you and this and that, and I 447 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: don't know. It just didn't seem to be happening exactly 448 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: in the way that everything was just so confusing. She 449 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: and Luke lived in an idyllic house at the end 450 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: of a road with a forest behind it. She went 451 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: out on a walk one day. I went up on 452 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: this hill in the green mountains, overlooking upond. She thought 453 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: about this God that used to be her best friend, 454 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: who she talked to and saying to on the playground 455 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: as a kid, the God who became her spouse. I 456 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: just stood up and I shouted. I shouted, God, if 457 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: you're out there, I need to know. I really need 458 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: to know. Please tell me, Hey, listen, I need to know. 459 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: And there was no immediate revelation, but it was just 460 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: a gradual coming to unawareness that what other people meant 461 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: when they said God, that didn't seem accurate from my perspective. 462 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: Eventually she became an atheist. She says, the stories about 463 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: God just don't ring true anymore. Physics and literature and 464 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: music they feel honest. She says, the mystery of the 465 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: universe is exciting. She's okay living with questions. It just 466 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: became very clear to me that reality was a lot 467 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: bigger than religion, and that any effort to contain reality 468 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: in a box or in a story was doing a disservice. 469 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: How much harm do we do by pretending to know 470 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: things that it's impossible to know. But she still thinks 471 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: love is at the center of it all. When you 472 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: say love and is it a feeling or is it 473 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: an action? Is it is love something someone will's love 474 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: is both a noun and a verb. For me, I 475 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: seek that verb love. I want to love. In two 476 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: thousand seven, ten years after she left the Missionaries of 477 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: Charity and ten years after Mother Teresa's death, Mary headed 478 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: to Pennsylvania. She went to a conference marking a decade 479 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: since what they called Mother's entrance into heaven. A number 480 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: of empty priests and sisters would be there. She might 481 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: have a chance to talk to them. She wanted to 482 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: be around people who knew her in her past life 483 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: and people who loved Mother. She felt on some level 484 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: that celebrating that previous life might finally let her leave 485 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: it behind. During the conference, Mary attended a mass. She 486 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: slid into a pew near the back. She could recognize 487 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: some of the sisters from behind, their gestures a telltale 488 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: slump the way one leaned in. During prayer, the Superior 489 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: General of the Empty Fathers gave the homily. He talked 490 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 1: about the growth of the MCS that a thousand sisters 491 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: had joined in the past ten years. Mary thought he 492 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: didn't mention the sisters who left. After Mass, she watched 493 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: a documentary about Mother Teresa ate in a room where 494 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: people sold Mother Teresa books, Mother Teresa dolls, Mother Teresa 495 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: c d s medals. She wondered what Mother would think. 496 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: The next morning, during the final hymn of Mass, she 497 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: hurried to the front of the church. She approached the 498 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: superior general at the time, Sister Narmala. She recognized Mary 499 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: the Nada. She said. Mary bowed her head for a blessing, 500 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: but Sister Narmala put her finger under Mary's chin. She 501 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: shook her head as if to say no, no blessing. 502 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: When the other sisters saw Mary, they greeted her with 503 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: a bit more warmth. Initially it was like oh, stern 504 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: to and there was like, oh no, I can't say that, 505 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: I don't have to. Oh no, Mary, Mary right, Mary. Yeah. 506 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: It was It was confusing for them because they for them, 507 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: I was always sister do Not Being called to Nada 508 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: felt good because it felt like she belonged. For some reason, 509 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: she still wanted so badly to belong She hoped she 510 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: could sneak in to have lunch with the sisters, even 511 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: though eating with outsiders is against the rules. They ate 512 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: in one place, and I ate in another place, and 513 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: I didn't belong anymore. At one point, she looked over 514 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: the shoulders of a huddle of nuns and spotted the 515 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: person she wanted to talk to you most, Sister Prema. 516 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: I'd always um felt a certain affinities, just a Prema. 517 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: She it was a very loving person. In fact of 518 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: the name Prema means love. When they were stationed together 519 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: in Rome, Mary says Sister Prema even called her her 520 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: twin because Mary resembled Sister Prema's actual sister. Sister Prema 521 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: eventually went on to become the Superior General, the head 522 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: of the m c S, a position she still holds today. 523 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: Mary called Sister Prema's name, and she eventually recognized Mary. 524 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: She smiled and took both of Mary's hands in hers. 525 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: Sister Donata, she said. At that moment, Sister Prema was 526 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: motioned away. She told Mary find me later. After a 527 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: couple of talks, Mary was leaving the auditorium when a 528 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: sister tapter on the shoulder walk with us. Sister Prama 529 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: wants to see you. When Sister Pramma finally talked to Mary, 530 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: she told her she wished she could invite her to lunch, 531 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: but Mary knows the rules. We were talking and at 532 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: a certain point she turn't me and she said, but 533 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: you still love the sisters, don't you? I said, of 534 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: course I love the sisters. Had you heard that ques 535 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: from sisters before? When I left? The sisters asked me 536 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: one of them, just a couple of days before I left, 537 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: when everybody knew I was going to my sister, will 538 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 1: you still love us? And I said yes. It's always 539 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: very touching for me because they knew that I loved them, 540 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: and they knew that for them it was that was 541 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: an important question. I think it wasn't always obvious that 542 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: people in authority and the missionaries of charity actually really 543 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: cared for their fellow sisters. It was a sorrow and 544 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: a disappointment to Mother Teresa as well. But um the 545 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: sisters had had felt that from me, Otherwise they would 546 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: never have asked that question, do you still love us? 547 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: And that it was still important to them after so 548 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 1: much time. It was very touching too. I've interviewed Mary 549 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: for hours over many months. She says, looking back at 550 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: her story is strange. It's been a long time, almost 551 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: twenty five years since she left. She leads a totally 552 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: different life now. She married Luke. She taught creative writing 553 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: and Italian. She officiates weddings as a humanist, non religious celebrant. 554 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: She wrote a book. She helped create a community and 555 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: platform for female writers. And they are free time. She 556 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: and Luke watch movies, go to film festivals. They bike, 557 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: they read, they garden, they talk. She says when she 558 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: looks back at that young woman in a sorry that 559 00:36:53,080 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: Mary is a different person. I do remember once when 560 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: I was cleaning my office, I saw this box at 561 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: the top of my bookcase, and I didn't remember what 562 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: was inside it, you know, And I said, well, what 563 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: what's in that box? Why am I keeping that box 564 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: way up there? She took down the box and opened it, 565 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: and she saw all of these things from her time 566 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: as a missionary of charity. There's a scapular, which is 567 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: a small wearable token that depicts Mother Mary holding Jesus. 568 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: There was a rosary made by an MC sister from 569 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: Seeds Miraculous Metals, Mother Teresa's hair in a plastic case. 570 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: And then there was a cross the size of her 571 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 1: hand with an iron Jesus on it. The crucifix Mother 572 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: Teresa wedged between Mary sorry and belt during her vows. 573 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: When Jesus became Mary's spouse, she thought she'd wear this 574 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: cross until she died. And when I saw this cross, 575 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: and I hadn't seen a crucifix for a long time, 576 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: it struck me in such a completely different way than 577 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: it had before. And it was like, this is a 578 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: man being tortured to death, and it struck me as 579 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: a kind of a tragic thing. For a while, Mary 580 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: wrestled with her relationship with Mother Teresa. It felt complicated 581 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: and therapy. She did the empty chair exercise to talk 582 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: to her, where you like, pretend there's some person in 583 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: the chair in front of you and you talk to them. 584 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: I did that sort of thing, but nothing felt like closure. 585 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: When she left the Missionaries of Charity, Mary received a 586 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: lot of letters from sisters telling her to come back, 587 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: and one of them sister included notes from a talk 588 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: that an empty father gave after Mother Teresa died. The 589 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: pages are crinkled now. The typewritten notes are cramped and 590 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: tight up against the margins. Not to waste paper the 591 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: Empty Way and this rough transcript. The Friest described Mother 592 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,439 Speaker 1: Teresa at the end of her life in the months 593 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: leading up to her death, and in these notes it 594 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: said that Mother was walking the halls of mother house saying, 595 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: no one loves Mother in her own house. We loved her, 596 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: but she didn't. She didn't feel that all those rules 597 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: that kept us so far from each other, and that 598 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: we're never supposed to reveal ourselves really to each other. 599 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: It's just all of these wonderful women living in their 600 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: own little cages of loneliness. And Mother at the end 601 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: of her life, whom all the world loved and admired, 602 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: is walking the halls saying, no one loves me. I 603 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: don't think that you have to be lonely to serve God. 604 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: H There are so many images of Mother Teresa and 605 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: Mary's memory, her toughness, her sharp eyes, Mother's firm hand 606 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: on her head for a blessing, when Mother pressed a 607 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: crucifix against her lips when she was just an aspirant, 608 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: when they traveled to Sweden together and shared a room 609 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: with two twin beds, Mother hitting the desk in their 610 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: last conversation as she pleaded with Mary to talk to 611 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: mother tell Mother explained to mother why she wanted to leave, 612 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 1: how Mary refused mother's disappointment. Mary dreamt about Mother Teresa 613 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: for a few years after she left the m c's. 614 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: Those dreams weren't nightmares, they were calm. The last one 615 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: she remembers, Mary was lying in her own bed. Mother 616 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: Teresa walked in and without saying anything, she went to 617 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: the bed and lay down next to Mary in this 618 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: sweet way. They were side by side, just close to 619 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: each other. I don't remember that she said anything, but 620 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: there was just this feeling that she understood me. She 621 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: wasn't mad at me anymore. One thing that's helped Mary 622 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,439 Speaker 1: talk about her past is something her husband, Luke said. 623 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: He told her, just remember it's a love story. I agree. 624 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: But love comes in many forms, and some aren't healthy. 625 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,879 Speaker 1: I've learned that in my own life, and I've learned 626 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: it from the story. Sometimes I think about all of 627 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: the hurt I've heard about from these former missionaries of charity, 628 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: sisters who gave everything of themselves and suffered in the process. 629 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: Love to be real has to hurt. Mother Teresa used 630 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: to say, maybe love hurts, but it's usually a side effect, 631 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: not a goal. I don't think sacrificing people for the 632 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: sake of a mission is right, no matter how much 633 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: love they feel. I'm grateful to the former Sisters who 634 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: shared their stories, but it hasn't been easy for them. 635 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 1: Hurt was part of the telling too, but they shared 636 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: their stories because it felt worth it. I think it's 637 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: worth it to look at why we put people on 638 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: pedestals and what can happen when we assume someone in 639 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: power is perfect. You could say a series like this 640 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: is digging up old dirt, and maybe it is, but 641 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: you can also hear it as a story from people 642 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: who are just as important as Mother Teresa, just as 643 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: human and just as valuable, who should also be heard. 644 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: It's not easy to figure out exactly what's right when 645 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: beliefs and God are involved, but it's worth talking about. 646 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: It's worth listening to. If you ask me, that's love. 647 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: The Turning is written by Allen lance Lesser and Me. 648 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: Our producers are Allen lance Lesser and Emily Foreman. Our 649 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea Aswah is our digital producer. 650 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. So many thanks to 651 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: all of the people who helped with this project, including 652 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 1: Liz mac Emily Kwan, Jasmine Aguilera, Organ Gibbons, Daniel Giemett 653 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: and Bryce Street, Cant, Joshi, Ivan Suarez, Susan Bryer, Susan Fields, 654 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: j Bostick, Elizabeth Gavitt, Chubby Such, Dave, Jacob Silber, Gretchen Gavett, 655 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: and Andrew Lesser and the whole wonderful team at Rococo 656 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 1: Punch and I Heeart Radio for their support. Special thanks 657 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: to the team at Type Investigations and Katherine Joyce, Amy Gains, 658 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: Sarah oh Luder, Maron Frischkoff, Bethan Macaluso, My Guest Hat Ticketter, 659 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,839 Speaker 1: Christine Rogassa, Jen Powers, Travis Dunlap, Andrew Kenward, Brianna Hill, 660 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: Simon Pullman, Sarah Gates, Allison Cantor, Nicky Etre, Holly Decan, 661 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: Dan Conaway, and consulting producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and 662 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration for this series. Our executive producers 663 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: are Jessica Alfert and John Ferratti at Rocco Punch, I 664 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: Could Trina Norville at iHeart Radio. Our theme music is 665 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: by Matt Reid. For photos and more details on this 666 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: series follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch. You can 667 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,840 Speaker 1: reach out via email to the Turning at Rococo punch 668 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: dot com. I'm Erica Lands. Thanks for listening.