WEBVTT - Ep. 608: A Mountain Lion Tragedy

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<v Speaker 1>If this is the me Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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<v Speaker 1>bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast, you can't

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<v Speaker 1>predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you

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<v Speaker 1>by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,

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<v Speaker 1>or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to

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<v Speaker 1>support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at

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<v Speaker 1>first light dot com. F I R S T l

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<v Speaker 1>I t E dot com. Join today by members of

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<v Speaker 1>the Brooks clan, Wyatt Aaron and the novelist Malcolm Brooks.

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<v Speaker 1>And we'll get to this in a bit, but what

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<v Speaker 1>brought us here together is that Aaron's son, Wyatt's brought Malcolm.

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<v Speaker 1>Your nephew, yep Tailing Brooks died in a mountain lion

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<v Speaker 1>attack in California in March, and we're gonna discuss the

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<v Speaker 1>circumstances around that, but first we're gonna talk a bit

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<v Speaker 1>about your guys family, who's a big hunting and fishing family.

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<v Speaker 1>And after that incident, after that accident or attack, our

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<v Speaker 1>good friend Dave Smith from Dave Smith Decoys was telling

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<v Speaker 1>me of his great affection for your guys family, and

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<v Speaker 1>I had I didn't initially put it together when I

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<v Speaker 1>saw the name Brooks, I didn't initially put it together

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<v Speaker 1>that you guys were related to the writer Malcolm Brooks,

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<v Speaker 1>who I've met and who's here today as well. Aaron,

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<v Speaker 1>you you knew Dave through competitive turkey calling.

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<v Speaker 2>Knew Dave through videoing hunts. I went up and video

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<v Speaker 2>for DSD.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh you did? I don't know that you're in the

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<v Speaker 1>wood business. Are you still in the wood business?

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<v Speaker 2>Firewood a little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's see you got a log and hat toos?

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<v Speaker 3>Were you running a camera like a camera out for him?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay?

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<v Speaker 1>For Dave?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well for colping it was actually through Ron Latshaw

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<v Speaker 2>from Final Approach.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I got Yes, I've known Brad and Dave for twenty

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<v Speaker 2>five years. They come down turkey hunt with us regularly

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<v Speaker 2>in California.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I got it. I got it.

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<v Speaker 2>Dave's been there a few years, Brad's been there a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of years, and.

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<v Speaker 1>You be and you got into competitive turkey calling, you

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<v Speaker 1>know when it.

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<v Speaker 3>Was calls around some lessons.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you do any natural voice calling? Nope, don't.

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<v Speaker 2>I did a podcast with DSD and I did a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of calling on there. I could probably look that up.

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<v Speaker 4>There you go.

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<v Speaker 1>So you got I'm looking at your I'm looking at

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<v Speaker 1>your stats. You got into competitive calling in nineteen ninety two,

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<v Speaker 1>the year I graduated from high.

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<v Speaker 3>School year I was born?

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<v Speaker 4>Is that right?

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<v Speaker 1>Chester cute? But good lord?

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<v Speaker 3>Really, yeah, I'm not that. I'm not. I'm getting old now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now you are three time California state calling champion,

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<v Speaker 1>two year Oregon state champion. So you kind of carpet

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<v Speaker 1>bagged it down in Oregon and beat him down there,

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<v Speaker 1>and then he came to Montana and carpet bag to

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<v Speaker 1>Montana and beat everybody in Montana. What was harder.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably the Oregon one.

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<v Speaker 1>Those the best callers. Then he finished third at the

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<v Speaker 1>Keystone Open in Pennsylvania. Then you're in the big leagues.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the hard one. Those are all the big guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Because then you got people that have been hunting turkeys

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<v Speaker 1>for since the beginning of time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all those guys in Pennsylvania are the guys that

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<v Speaker 2>go to and win Nationals every year. So I was

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<v Speaker 2>called against some pretty good guys there. It's fun.

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<v Speaker 1>You still do that kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I just I probably like early two thousands, I

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<v Speaker 2>just lost interest and stop doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you lose interest in turkey hunting?

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<v Speaker 4>No?

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<v Speaker 2>No, turkey hunt a.

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<v Speaker 5>Lot in California primarily.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but California stopped having calling contests too.

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<v Speaker 1>For like did they all have one outlaw?

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't. I that's probably next.

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<v Speaker 5>That is like when you bring up hunting and California

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<v Speaker 5>right like then it's like how could he ever be

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<v Speaker 5>a hunter and live there? And it's like, oddly enough,

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<v Speaker 5>every time I go to California there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>hunting and fishing to be done. That's typically pretty good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Did your dad get you intoup hunting, fish and white?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>How old? You know?

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<v Speaker 6>Eighteen?

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<v Speaker 1>You know how I get started out.

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<v Speaker 6>Just from going out with my dad since I was little.

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<v Speaker 1>What's your specialty? Man?

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<v Speaker 6>Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 3>Waterfowl?

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<v Speaker 6>Probably deer hunting, because I don't know, I'm super patient

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<v Speaker 6>and I'm always out there the longest.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't mind is coming right out and saying that.

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<v Speaker 3>And he kills giant bucks, black tails are yeah they'la Yeah.

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<v Speaker 6>Pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 1>So you weren't a big bow hunter, Aaron? No, how'd

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<v Speaker 1>he get in? How'd you get him into it? Or

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<v Speaker 1>how'd he get into it? On his own.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, mostly just from watching YouTube stuff like that, seeing

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<v Speaker 6>it on TV.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you decided to get yourself a bow.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well my dad's friend gave me his kids because

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<v Speaker 6>his kid grew out of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, then what happened?

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<v Speaker 6>I just started shooting it and then started hunting deer

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<v Speaker 6>with it, and then I ended up getting my first

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<v Speaker 6>one the bow.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you guys do a lot of tree stand stuff

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<v Speaker 3>for the black tails in California?

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<v Speaker 6>Or is it mainly ground blind?

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<v Speaker 3>Ground blind?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah you do.

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<v Speaker 6>I've never hunted out of a tree stand.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you guys hunt public or private? Brown?

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<v Speaker 6>Private?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>So you had a second hand bow? Learn how to

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<v Speaker 1>shoot it, yep, learn how to hunt deer? Your brother

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<v Speaker 1>like the hunt deer?

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<v Speaker 6>Mm hmm it feels easy yeah, because he wasn't very patient,

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<v Speaker 6>so he just liked going out and shooting one super fast.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me about tell me about patience, man, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>what is that when you say it? What do you mean?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean? I understand what patience means. But you mean

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<v Speaker 1>you were willing to sit all day?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, all day, every morning, every evening.

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<v Speaker 1>You just put in the time. Yeah. Yeah, do you

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<v Speaker 1>got did you guys grow up reading your uncle's books

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<v Speaker 1>and stuff. You ever look at his buttons?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I've read part.

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<v Speaker 1>Part of one.

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<v Speaker 4>My own kids haven't read my books.

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<v Speaker 6>You're not a very big reader.

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<v Speaker 1>So explain all. Explain all your guys relationship. How are

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<v Speaker 1>you guys tied in with each other?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, Aaron's my younger brother and I, you know, we

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<v Speaker 4>grew up in the same region where these guys still live,

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<v Speaker 4>Eldorado County. It's you know, gold Rush country, foothills country,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, it's you know, within an hour of Sacramento,

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<v Speaker 4>but every rural the southern part of the county where

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<v Speaker 4>we grew up. So I was deer hunting and bird

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<v Speaker 4>hunting first before Aaron was legally old enough too. God,

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<v Speaker 4>and then he he just he he had already been

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<v Speaker 4>like kind of a maniacal bass fisherman, even as a

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<v Speaker 4>real little shaver, so he just he just you know,

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<v Speaker 4>segued right into hunting too as soon as he was

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<v Speaker 4>legally able to do it. And he and I hunted

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<v Speaker 4>together for years down there. Then I moved to Missoula

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<v Speaker 4>in ninety five and I've been there ever since.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you move there to be a writer?

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<v Speaker 4>You will? Yeah, I mean I had lived in outside

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<v Speaker 4>of Kalispell for about a year in ninety two, I guess,

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<v Speaker 4>and then wound up in Willawa County, Oregon for a

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<v Speaker 4>little while and then back home again in Cali. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>I mean I I was really just enamored by Montana history,

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<v Speaker 4>Montana culture, you know, the outdoor culture. I mean it was,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, really interested in fly fishing when I was

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<v Speaker 4>in my teens, and knew that the writing culture was

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<v Speaker 4>what it was in Montana that you know, it had

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<v Speaker 4>these famous writers and I read all those books, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>mcgwaine and Harrison and ab gu three, and yeah, I

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<v Speaker 4>was just kind of steeped in it in general, and

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<v Speaker 4>that's where I wanted to go and never did leave.

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<v Speaker 1>My buddies in Missoula used to call Missoula the Paris

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<v Speaker 1>of West central Montana. Oh yeah, yeah, crag, Yeah, you

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<v Speaker 1>were a maniacal bass fisher from telling you what that means.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, just when I was little, like from when I

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<v Speaker 2>was like four till probably around fifteen, I just didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really do it as much.

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<v Speaker 3>But do you guys steal bass fish? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeahlmet Halmmett back up when you you quit when you

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<v Speaker 1>were fifteen, But you started being a maniacal bass fisherman at.

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<v Speaker 2>Four, Yeah, three or four, he was little.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. We had a pond behind our house and it

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<v Speaker 4>had large mouths in it. That's just all we did

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<v Speaker 4>was down there throw throw plugs.

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<v Speaker 1>So do you tend to get into stuff and get

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<v Speaker 1>out of it? No, Like you got into turkey call

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<v Speaker 1>and then then drifted out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was just the competitive calling. I just lost

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<v Speaker 2>interest in it. But turkey hunting was still just a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch and.

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<v Speaker 1>You guys got good turkey still, right.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, tell people what you tell people your books? Man?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, yeah, I mean, I guess the thing I'm most

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<v Speaker 4>known for as a writer at this point, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>is the two novels. The first one is called Painted Horses,

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<v Speaker 4>and they would probably both books would equally qualify probably

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<v Speaker 4>as literary fiction and historical fiction. Painted Horses is set

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<v Speaker 4>in the fifties in this sort of like prior Mountain,

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<v Speaker 4>Big Horn River region, and it just explores the archaeology

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<v Speaker 4>that they used to do in advance of like the

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<v Speaker 4>hydro projects in the fifties and sixties. I mean, that's

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<v Speaker 4>a very thumbnail. There's a lot in there about like

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<v Speaker 4>you know, ice age cave art and yeah, there's it's

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<v Speaker 4>it ranges pretty widely. Second book, cloud Maker, was inspired

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<v Speaker 4>by these real life Montana teenagers and the Great Depression

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<v Speaker 4>who were building and flying their own airplanes powered by

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<v Speaker 4>Model A Forward engines. So yeah, and now, as of

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<v Speaker 4>about two months ago, I guess I'm under contract with

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<v Speaker 4>Simon and Schuster to do a narrative nonfiction you know,

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<v Speaker 4>full length book on like history of early debute Montana.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh really, Yeah that's good. Yeah. Have you read I

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<v Speaker 1>don't even want to say the name of the guy,

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<v Speaker 1>but have you read Pennies from Hell?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 4>This is an article I don't even know if I've

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<v Speaker 4>heard of it was.

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<v Speaker 1>It was an article in Harper's a long time ago.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, was it was? It was? Yeah, it started a Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>the initials are ED.

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<v Speaker 1>This was the first name, yeah, Ed. Yeah, that's a

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<v Speaker 1>good idea.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well I did. I'm a carpenter by trade, and

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<v Speaker 4>I did a restoration for a friend on a row

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<v Speaker 4>house on Mercury Street over there, summer before all the

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<v Speaker 4>COVID stuff started, and I just like deep dove into

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<v Speaker 4>the history and there I got really super interested in it.

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<v Speaker 4>And my initial initial impulse for it was to try

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<v Speaker 4>to make like a dramatic television show out of that,

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<v Speaker 4>like more of the Copper King sort of era. Man,

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<v Speaker 4>So I wrote, you know, when COVID hit and I

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<v Speaker 4>had a lot of downtime. I actually did write a

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<v Speaker 4>tentative pilot episode for that. But you're probably aware of this,

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<v Speaker 4>but the publishing industry has just been so turbulent in

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<v Speaker 4>the last say, six seven years.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh they're gonna say the last six seven centuries.

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<v Speaker 4>Well yeah, but you know, worse for sort of cultural

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<v Speaker 4>and political reasons in the last So I realized that

0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:24.040
<v Speaker 4>my odds of selling another full length novel in the

0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.200
<v Speaker 4>same vein that I had written the other two were

0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 4>probably not great. But I was like, well, I've done

0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.720
<v Speaker 4>all this research for this tentative TV show on mute,

0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.480
<v Speaker 4>and what's really By doing the research, I realized that

0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.400
<v Speaker 4>nothing had really recently been written on the early history

0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.079
<v Speaker 4>of the place in like fifty sixty years, and I

0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.760
<v Speaker 4>just like, wow, I mean, I should just turn this

0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 4>into a narrative nonfiction proposal and see if I can

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.400
<v Speaker 4>move that. And it took eighteen months to do it,

0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.960
<v Speaker 4>but it did happen. Finally, No congratulations man, thank you.

0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:01.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, tell me about how old was Taylorm.

0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.200
<v Speaker 6>When he died twenty one, twenty one.

0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.720
<v Speaker 1>He was a musician. Tell me about your brother, man,

0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.880
<v Speaker 1>or tell me about your son, whatever makes sense.

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, he was super into music and well playing guitar,

0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 2>and he was really good at.

0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.440
<v Speaker 6>It and bass fishing. It's like all he did. Yeah,

0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:25.120
<v Speaker 6>let's go f.

0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 5>That's a pretty good combo.

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Really, So he was a bass fisherman.

0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:31.240
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, big, super into it.

0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.760
<v Speaker 1>Letting him god making them late for something.

0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.120
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, anytime he could, that's what he's doing.

0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:42.000
<v Speaker 1>And and what's up with the music?

0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.880
<v Speaker 6>Mm hmmm, I don't know. He just always liked listening

0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:47.440
<v Speaker 6>to music.

0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.440
<v Speaker 3>Did he ever record anything?

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.120
<v Speaker 6>Just like on his phone? Got you like, I don't know, Yeah,

0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.400
<v Speaker 6>but he wasn't big into recording.

0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:58.440
<v Speaker 1>What was he what was What kind of music did

0:14:58.440 --> 0:14:59.920
<v Speaker 1>he play? What did you listen to?

0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Mostly metal type of stuff?

0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 1>He was a head banger.

0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh, all kinds of strange bands. I don't even know.

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.040
<v Speaker 1>But he would dip back into some metallica.

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.120
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:19.040
<v Speaker 4>He was like one of those like intuitively just gifted

0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.280
<v Speaker 4>guitar people where you know, it's like if you take

0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.480
<v Speaker 4>like I was, you know, to take guitar lessons when

0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.480
<v Speaker 4>you're a teenager and you think you're like coming along

0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 4>with it, and all of a sudden you meet some

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.280
<v Speaker 4>kid who's never had a lesson in his life, and

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.600
<v Speaker 4>you just completely blow the doors off of you know,

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 4>even professional musicians to agree one of them to.

0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Your right wing guitar virtuoso.

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.280
<v Speaker 3>All right, I wouldn't go that far.

0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Least that's how you introduced himself.

0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:47.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.120
<v Speaker 1>Uh? Did he did he want to be a musician? Like?

0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.880
<v Speaker 1>What was his aspiration? His long term aspiration?

0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.560
<v Speaker 2>He's only played music by himself in his room. I mean,

0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.600
<v Speaker 2>he never played with a band or played with It's

0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 2>just all he just loved playing guitar.

0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 1>Was he kind of a loner?

0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:10.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.640
<v Speaker 6>Kind of Yeah, I don't know.

0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.640
<v Speaker 5>You get good at bass fishing, get good at guitar.

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.440
<v Speaker 5>That makes sense too, stay away from the ladies.

0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:20.840
<v Speaker 1>What line of work was he going toward?

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.200
<v Speaker 6>He didn't. He hadn't really figured it out yet. Yeah,

0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.920
<v Speaker 6>but well, I mean he always talked about wanting to

0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.720
<v Speaker 6>do like bass tournaments and stuff like that.

0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.000
<v Speaker 3>But did you guys have like a did he go

0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.200
<v Speaker 3>out in a like a bass. You guys have a

0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 3>bass boat like rigged with electronics kind of stuff and

0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.440
<v Speaker 3>like bass master classic kind of fishing.

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.119
<v Speaker 6>No, we just have an old John boat.

0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:50.360
<v Speaker 3>Got you.

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:50.840
<v Speaker 6>Yeah?

0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Cool?

0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.760
<v Speaker 1>So he thought maybe he would get into that.

0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Did he go to college at all?

0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 6>No?

0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.800
<v Speaker 1>No, are you fixing to go to college?

0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:00.840
<v Speaker 6>No, I'm not going to go.

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Had you thought about it at a time?

0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:09.919
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, Well my plan was to go, Okay, but I

0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:10.879
<v Speaker 6>just decided. No.

0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 1>When did you decide?

0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 6>No, like after my senior year, before the next year

0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.800
<v Speaker 6>school was going to start, like during that summer.

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, what do you think about doing instead?

0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.600
<v Speaker 6>Well, I was going to go to be a firefighter,

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.800
<v Speaker 6>and then I ended up going a different route that

0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:39.240
<v Speaker 6>didn't require college, and so that's what I do. I

0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.320
<v Speaker 6>did wildland firefighting good last year for a private company

0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 6>out of Georgetown, and then my plan is to just

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.360
<v Speaker 6>get my EMT so I could work full time instead

0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:52.240
<v Speaker 6>of seasonal.

0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.000
<v Speaker 1>But you still want to be a firefighter?

0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.080
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, okay for the most part.

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm going to introduce someone. I'm going to volunteer

0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.040
<v Speaker 1>him as a mentor because he's a Sacramento firefighter. Okay,

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:07.560
<v Speaker 1>they'll tell you what's what's what I can tell you

0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.240
<v Speaker 1>one thing, I know, it was a lot better to

0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:11.480
<v Speaker 1>get in a long time ago.

0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.359
<v Speaker 5>I'm thinking about something like playing with fire, Like what

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:21.120
<v Speaker 5>about being a welder, make a bunch of cash, great stuff,

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:22.359
<v Speaker 5>always have a job.

0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:24.679
<v Speaker 6>I'm not really wanting to be a firefighter.

0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.639
<v Speaker 1>If you like to hunt and fish, firefighting is the

0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.080
<v Speaker 1>way to go. Yeah, But a lot of firefighters because

0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.119
<v Speaker 1>you go in and you work, you know how it goes.

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:34.760
<v Speaker 1>You go and you just live there for days and

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.480
<v Speaker 1>work around the clock and then you get a little

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.600
<v Speaker 1>bit of a chunk of time off. Yeah, and it's

0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:42.320
<v Speaker 1>it's like a predictable schedule. So you like go through

0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.119
<v Speaker 1>hell for four days or whatever it is, and you

0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:46.560
<v Speaker 1>kick it for a couple of days.

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.359
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, Or you go through hell for like eight days

0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:51.840
<v Speaker 5>and then you kick it for a lot more days.

0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:54.879
<v Speaker 5>Then sometimes you're like, I want twelve days in a

0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.000
<v Speaker 5>row and then I'll see you in three months.

0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, that's a good hunting fish and suit. But

0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of firefighters I know start a second business

0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.879
<v Speaker 1>mm hmm because they're too ambitious. That's not how you

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.760
<v Speaker 1>want to do it. It's not how you want to

0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.520
<v Speaker 1>do it. You want to have. You want a second

0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.640
<v Speaker 1>business of hunting fishing? Did you and your bro spend

0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.000
<v Speaker 1>a lot of time in the woods.

0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:16.920
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, a decent amount.

0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like what would you guys go and do?

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.879
<v Speaker 6>Mm hmm. Mostly we would just turkey hunt together.

0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:25.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So he liked that.

0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, that was his favorite turkey hunting.

0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you guys did obviously did some shed hunting.

0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:36.320
<v Speaker 6>Together, which he wasn't very into that because of all

0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:36.960
<v Speaker 6>the walking.

0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.679
<v Speaker 5>I was gonna ask did he have patients for turkey hunting?

0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:43.880
<v Speaker 5>Turkey hunting, you gotta have some patience.

0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.359
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, but that was it only turkey hunting.

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:54.000
<v Speaker 1>So he didn't like no walking, no waiting, not really. No.

0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:55.400
<v Speaker 1>Did he get some deer?

0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:57.120
<v Speaker 6>Yeah he got two?

0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Yeah, and you guys went shed hunting for dear

0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:02.280
<v Speaker 1>antlers or what?

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 6>Yeah?

0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Did you think of it like scouting or like you

0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.160
<v Speaker 1>just wanted to find the antlers? Mmm?

0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.240
<v Speaker 6>When I would shed hunt spots I was gonna hunt.

0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.159
<v Speaker 6>I'd kind of scouted out while I was looking, but

0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:19.280
<v Speaker 6>mostly just to find the antlers.

0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:19.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:20.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Uh, can I ask you a question about your area? There?

0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:26.920
<v Speaker 1>Are you susceptible to poison oak? M?

0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:29.280
<v Speaker 6>I don't get it very badly.

0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how you guys can live in that area.

0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:33.560
<v Speaker 6>You get it bad, dude.

0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.720
<v Speaker 1>That's all over my hands right now, just because you

0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.080
<v Speaker 1>walked in the room. He's got a poison oak on

0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:40.440
<v Speaker 1>his hand.

0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.800
<v Speaker 3>Do you get it worse than anyone I've ever seen?

0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:48.000
<v Speaker 1>The man I had to quit hunting California. I've been

0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.400
<v Speaker 1>in places in California where the primary vegetation is poison oak.

0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.560
<v Speaker 1>It's like the primary people. It's not like watch out

0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:59.560
<v Speaker 1>for poisonous, watch out for vegetation because the primary plant

0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.840
<v Speaker 1>species it's like, you look, it's a poison oak mono culture.

0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:04.520
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it's all over.

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god.

0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:08.880
<v Speaker 5>I fell asleep in an orchard in California one time

0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:09.920
<v Speaker 5>hunting black tail deer.

0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I woke up.

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.480
<v Speaker 5>And I simultaneously had a tick going in my nostril

0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.760
<v Speaker 5>and in my ear canal to the point of like

0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.560
<v Speaker 5>just barely being able to grab him. And I used

0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.960
<v Speaker 5>to think about that in like a PTSD style nightmare

0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.199
<v Speaker 5>for years, because I I it was just on the

0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.320
<v Speaker 5>edge of being able to clamb out of my face

0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 5>and it was happening in two vents at the same time. Wow,

0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:40.040
<v Speaker 5>that's California.

0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:44.920
<v Speaker 1>When you guys are knocking around in your area. So,

0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.320
<v Speaker 1>so how far when you and your brother got attacked?

0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:49.480
<v Speaker 1>How far were you from your house?

0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.359
<v Speaker 6>It was like a thirty minute drive.

0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:58.439
<v Speaker 1>And I would say, what was the what was the

0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.520
<v Speaker 1>kind of describe the area to me? Is it rant

0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:02.560
<v Speaker 1>like cattle country? No?

0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.320
<v Speaker 6>It was more foresty type area.

0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.520
<v Speaker 1>But it is it an area you'd spend a lot

0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:08.920
<v Speaker 1>of time in.

0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.680
<v Speaker 6>No, that was our first time going to that lot.

0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.159
<v Speaker 1>What brought you to that spot?

0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.920
<v Speaker 6>When my dad told me about it and then told

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.840
<v Speaker 6>you what that they used to find sheds up there? Okay,

0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:28.800
<v Speaker 6>like turkey hunting and stuff, all right, So then we

0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:30.320
<v Speaker 6>just decided to go check it out.

0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Is this the area you got? Do you guys see

0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:35.960
<v Speaker 1>do you guys see a lot of lions in your area?

0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:36.680
<v Speaker 4>Like?

0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:38.400
<v Speaker 1>Is it common to run in the lions?

0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:40.040
<v Speaker 6>On the trail camera?

0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.719
<v Speaker 2>We see him a lot, see him driving, see him

0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:45.400
<v Speaker 2>across the road.

0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Aaron hit one in broad daylight with his pick

0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:49.640
<v Speaker 4>up one time.

0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Whoa, it's like ten years ago. Just jumped out right

0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:58.280
<v Speaker 2>in front of the truck, just ran it over. I

0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.719
<v Speaker 2>thought it was dead, but it managed to get up

0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:04.760
<v Speaker 2>and limp off the road. And I don't know what

0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:09.640
<v Speaker 2>happened to it, never found it, But yeah, people are

0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:12.440
<v Speaker 2>everyone's seeing lions everywhere.

0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.439
<v Speaker 1>It's does that feel like it's increased a lot in

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:17.040
<v Speaker 1>your lifetime?

0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:19.960
<v Speaker 4>Oh, it's it's increased in the last like four or

0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:25.640
<v Speaker 4>five years, just like snowball increase. Yeah, like like escalation

0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:31.440
<v Speaker 4>to like a degree that is like pretty clearly indicates

0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:35.679
<v Speaker 4>that they've just become completely habituated to the human you know,

0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.600
<v Speaker 4>population residential zones down there at this point.

0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:44.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know what's on a different subject, it's about

0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:52.399
<v Speaker 1>wildlife biology in California. The last time they had a

0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.840
<v Speaker 1>the last time California had a black bear management plan,

0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:59.920
<v Speaker 1>they did it in nineteen eighty nine and they had

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:06.320
<v Speaker 1>estimated population of twenty thousand black bears. They just put

0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 1>a new pop They just put a new management plan

0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:14.239
<v Speaker 1>out for comment. The comment period is closed, and like

0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:17.280
<v Speaker 1>if you go down the middle of the range, the

0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.120
<v Speaker 1>middle of the estimated range is sixty five thousand.

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:21.760
<v Speaker 6>Yep, jeez.

0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.120
<v Speaker 1>They did. They looked at something with they were looking

0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:31.639
<v Speaker 1>at the relationship between black bears and mountain lions and

0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 1>some research there of the collared mountain lion. So when

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:41.040
<v Speaker 1>a mountain lion. And this this was this work was

0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:45.920
<v Speaker 1>done in Mendocino National Forest. If a mountain lion kills

0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:48.680
<v Speaker 1>a deer in Mendocino National Forest, there's a seventy five

0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:54.000
<v Speaker 1>percent chance that they will lose that deer to there's

0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.639
<v Speaker 1>a seventy five percent Sorry, the mountain lion kills a

0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:02.439
<v Speaker 1>deer in Mendocino National Forest, there's a seventy five percent

0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:09.879
<v Speaker 1>chance that a bear will come to that carcass site.

0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:15.680
<v Speaker 1>There's a seventy six percent chance that the bear will

0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:23.080
<v Speaker 1>take the deer from the line, which greatly ups right,

0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:27.600
<v Speaker 1>which greatly ups the amount of work the lions are

0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:30.080
<v Speaker 1>doing to be on the landscape as the bear, as

0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:32.080
<v Speaker 1>the bear numbers come up, like it's it's sort of

0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:35.200
<v Speaker 1>it's sort of had this this cascading effect that pow

0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:38.080
<v Speaker 1>lions behave and how lions utilize the landscape.

0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:40.560
<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean, you're kind of pointing to like one

0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:44.920
<v Speaker 4>of the bigger contextual issues that involves this whole thing,

0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:48.600
<v Speaker 4>and that's that California really doesn't have good but weird

0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:53.520
<v Speaker 4>regard just like North American model based comprehensive wildlife management,

0:25:54.240 --> 0:26:00.439
<v Speaker 4>it's just a it's a much less traditional. You can

0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:03.439
<v Speaker 4>hardly even call it a model at this point. Like

0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:08.160
<v Speaker 4>the lions themselves were, you know, by ballot biology essentially

0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:11.800
<v Speaker 4>thirty five years ago they were declared especially protected species

0:26:11.840 --> 0:26:13.080
<v Speaker 4>in the state of California.

0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:14.399
<v Speaker 1>Was that under Reagan.

0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:20.640
<v Speaker 4>No, what Reagan did was it was done for more

0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:23.720
<v Speaker 4>traditional management reasons. They were just trying to get there.

0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:25.560
<v Speaker 4>Like a lot of hound guys back in that era

0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:30.560
<v Speaker 4>in the late sixties and seventies were concerned that maybe

0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:33.520
<v Speaker 4>they had taken too many lions back to whoring the

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:36.760
<v Speaker 4>bounty era, and then it was a free for all.

0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:40.680
<v Speaker 4>The bounty system ended in like sixty two or sixty three,

0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:44.000
<v Speaker 4>and it was a literal free for all at that point.

0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:46.760
<v Speaker 4>There was no management objective or plan in place for

0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:49.920
<v Speaker 4>nobody knew how many lions there were. Nobody had really

0:26:49.920 --> 0:26:52.119
<v Speaker 4>studied them very you know, effectively, you.

0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Can make cash killing them year round.

0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:56.800
<v Speaker 4>You could yeah, well yeah, I mean, and you could

0:26:56.840 --> 0:26:59.520
<v Speaker 4>merely pursue and kill them year round. So I think

0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:01.440
<v Speaker 4>what happen, and it was a lot of guys who

0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:05.160
<v Speaker 4>liked to run them were realizing that maybe they were

0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:12.120
<v Speaker 4>tipping too far in the take direction. So Reagan signed

0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:16.800
<v Speaker 4>a kill moratorium into effect in nineteen seventy two, but

0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:20.960
<v Speaker 4>that didn't that did not prevent guys from being able

0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:23.240
<v Speaker 4>to run them. They could still run them trium tree

0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:27.440
<v Speaker 4>and free. And the kill moratorium was in effect until

0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:30.320
<v Speaker 4>nineteen eighty five or eighty six. It was fourteen years long.

0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:34.000
<v Speaker 4>So at that point they had collected enough data and

0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.960
<v Speaker 4>realized that the population was was definitely stable and.

0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:41.119
<v Speaker 1>The Housett they hadn't killed them in fourteen years.

0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:43.359
<v Speaker 4>Hadn't killed them in fourteen years. So at that point

0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:45.720
<v Speaker 4>they relisted them as a game you know, as a

0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:48.720
<v Speaker 4>game species, and they were going to manage them comprehensively

0:27:48.760 --> 0:27:53.720
<v Speaker 4>with everything else well HSUS and an outlying foundation and

0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:57.040
<v Speaker 4>you know, basically like you know, animal welfare, animal protectionist

0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:01.719
<v Speaker 4>NGO's got completely up in arms about it, and they

0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:06.679
<v Speaker 4>managed to, by popular ballot measure, have the species declared

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:11.320
<v Speaker 4>especially protected again for zero science. There's no scientific basis

0:28:11.320 --> 0:28:15.199
<v Speaker 4>to this at all. It was strictly, you know, the

0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:18.480
<v Speaker 4>ability to appeal emotionally to a population.

0:28:18.920 --> 0:28:24.080
<v Speaker 1>They they they they didn't come in and argue population dynamics.

0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:28.960
<v Speaker 1>It was more like, we're not here to argue population levels.

0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:32.120
<v Speaker 1>We're not here to argue sustainability. Right, we don't want

0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:35.359
<v Speaker 1>people to legally be able to kill mountains, right. It

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:37.440
<v Speaker 1>was not a conversation about how many.

0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:44.600
<v Speaker 4>Exactly strictly an ideological or philosophical you know, impetus for that, yep.

0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:51.239
<v Speaker 1>But divorced from any conversations totally, totally exactly. Yeah, and

0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:54.240
<v Speaker 1>that really led to a lot of increase.

0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:58.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and so there, I mean, there's I'm actually I mean,

0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:04.200
<v Speaker 4>this is another thing that's going on, and I just

0:29:04.640 --> 0:29:07.080
<v Speaker 4>signed a contract with the New York Times magazine to

0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:10.160
<v Speaker 4>write about this entire issue and like really explore like

0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:14.080
<v Speaker 4>through the lens of what happened to the boys into

0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 4>you know, our larger family as a result of it,

0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:20.520
<v Speaker 4>and then really the entire region. I mean, this really

0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:25.160
<v Speaker 4>impacted that Foothills region hard because so many people had

0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:28.880
<v Speaker 4>been had been increasingly nervous about the you know, the

0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:33.440
<v Speaker 4>the behavioral changes in the lions that are just palpable

0:29:33.520 --> 0:29:36.000
<v Speaker 4>to everybody. You can. I mean, you just people see

0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:39.600
<v Speaker 4>them everywhere. They're jumping into people's backyards and taking dogs,

0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:45.160
<v Speaker 4>they're breaking into chicken coops. They're totally blase about, you know,

0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:48.560
<v Speaker 4>just being seen in broad daylight. And it was certainly

0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:51.640
<v Speaker 4>not that way when we were growing up around there.

0:29:51.920 --> 0:29:54.280
<v Speaker 5>Right, It's no longer this thing that if you spend

0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.840
<v Speaker 5>enough time outside mm hmm or driving in like the

0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:01.360
<v Speaker 5>twilight in certain areas, you get really lucky you might

0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:02.280
<v Speaker 5>see one exactly.

0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:04.080
<v Speaker 4>But when we were kids, I mean, we knew when

0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:07.040
<v Speaker 4>they were there. We knew guys who had hound kennels

0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:11.280
<v Speaker 4>and who ran them, and we would hear lion scream

0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 4>from time to time down in the canyon behind our house.

0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:18.200
<v Speaker 4>Everybody knew that they were around, but if somebody saw

0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:21.160
<v Speaker 4>one in broad daylight, it would make the local newspaper

0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:23.840
<v Speaker 4>because it was just such anomalous event.

0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:27.240
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember a few years ago? Can you find

0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:29.560
<v Speaker 1>do you mind looking up what yurtis was? There was

0:30:29.640 --> 0:30:34.880
<v Speaker 1>one summer a few years ago when Washington had its

0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:42.040
<v Speaker 1>first documented mountain lion fatality. Yeah, and then Oregon had

0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:46.880
<v Speaker 1>its first and ninety years and that happened the same summer. Yeah,

0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:49.040
<v Speaker 1>And I was talking to a friend of mine who

0:30:49.080 --> 0:30:52.560
<v Speaker 1>does a lot of work. He'd done a lot of

0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:56.560
<v Speaker 1>depredation work for the state of Oregon yep. Twenty eighteen.

0:30:57.240 --> 0:30:59.080
<v Speaker 1>He done a lot of depredation work for the state

0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:01.240
<v Speaker 1>of Oregon. And was to him, I'm like, how much

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:05.120
<v Speaker 1>does that just freak? Like how much is that it's

0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:07.920
<v Speaker 1>freak coincidence? And how much of that is something different?

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:11.640
<v Speaker 1>And to paraphrase him, I mean we had a long

0:31:11.720 --> 0:31:19.000
<v Speaker 1>conversation about it. His take was, there's a huge freak element, right,

0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:21.120
<v Speaker 1>there's a huge freak element you can't discount, like in

0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:21.760
<v Speaker 1>the same summer.

0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:22.000
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:31:23.080 --> 0:31:26.560
<v Speaker 1>But he said also, like in my career, I have

0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:32.840
<v Speaker 1>seen a major change in the management attitude around lions.

0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:37.120
<v Speaker 1>Where it used to be one lion kind of came

0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:44.600
<v Speaker 1>up against that human threshold. There was serious pushback, like

0:31:45.160 --> 0:31:48.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, if the lion was too aggressive around livestock,

0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:52.200
<v Speaker 1>was too blase around people, we would kill the lion.

0:31:52.560 --> 0:31:54.200
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, just too apt to be seen.

0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 1>Yep. Yeah, And he said and since then it's been

0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:02.120
<v Speaker 1>pushed and pushed him, push to not take action, to

0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:04.480
<v Speaker 1>not take action. So he felt, as much as it's

0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:08.360
<v Speaker 1>crazy than the same summer, we'd see that. Yeah, it

0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:12.960
<v Speaker 1>aligns with what I'm seeing, which is a great reluctance

0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:19.040
<v Speaker 1>on the part of the state agencies. Yeah, for fear

0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:23.720
<v Speaker 1>of public pushback, right, often coming from people who aren't

0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:26.200
<v Speaker 1>dealing with them, For fear of published pushback of being

0:32:26.240 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 1>too aggressive around depredation issues, too aggressive around hazing lions,

0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:35.040
<v Speaker 1>too aggressive around taking any kind of control measure. Yeah,

0:32:35.080 --> 0:32:38.560
<v Speaker 1>so he like wasn't shocked, right, did it happen?

0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:41.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah? Well, when you break down even like the state

0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:44.000
<v Speaker 4>in California is a ground zero for you know exactly

0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:47.840
<v Speaker 4>what you're talking about, because the degree of like public

0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:52.280
<v Speaker 4>sentiment that can be steered, you know, both by just

0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:56.080
<v Speaker 4>a sort of hyperbolic sensationalistic you know, media reportings. I mean,

0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:58.960
<v Speaker 4>they'll report that there are an estimated four thy five

0:32:59.040 --> 0:33:01.520
<v Speaker 4>hundred lions and the state of California, and people hear

0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:05.400
<v Speaker 4>that raw number and they automatically are like, holy mackerel,

0:33:05.400 --> 0:33:07.400
<v Speaker 4>they must be on the verge of extinction, which is

0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:10.720
<v Speaker 4>not the case. I mean, the state of Montana has

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:15.080
<v Speaker 4>between five and seven thousand, right, and the State of

0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:18.400
<v Speaker 4>Montana estimates that that is within twenty five percent of

0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:21.360
<v Speaker 4>the pre European contact number. So I mean, if you've

0:33:21.400 --> 0:33:24.000
<v Speaker 4>got this apex predator, the just are not that that

0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:27.680
<v Speaker 4>are territorial and there are not that many of them

0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:31.600
<v Speaker 4>saturating as a rule a really large land space. But

0:33:31.840 --> 0:33:37.320
<v Speaker 4>I mean in California, because you have you know again

0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:41.680
<v Speaker 4>animal welfare and animal protectionist NGOs who are ideologically committed

0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:46.640
<v Speaker 4>to a certain outcome, right, and they've got very deep pockets.

0:33:46.640 --> 0:33:51.480
<v Speaker 4>They're very well funded, and they're very able to manipulate

0:33:51.520 --> 0:33:55.760
<v Speaker 4>the sort of you know, the media sensationalistic dimension of

0:33:55.800 --> 0:34:03.400
<v Speaker 4>things to achieve ends through non scientific means and non

0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:06.000
<v Speaker 4>official means. I mean, you put something on a ballot,

0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:08.560
<v Speaker 4>you can get enough. You know, people who are just

0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:12.160
<v Speaker 4>probably perfectly well intentioned with the way that they vote,

0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:15.320
<v Speaker 4>they're just they're just naive or you know, under educated,

0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:19.680
<v Speaker 4>underinformed on what the you know, the actual boots on

0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:22.799
<v Speaker 4>the ground situation is for others who live in more

0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:26.080
<v Speaker 4>royal areas and actually have to deal with the fallout

0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:29.759
<v Speaker 4>of restricting traditional management policies.

0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:35.759
<v Speaker 1>I hear that, you know, like people say, like uneducated

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:39.719
<v Speaker 1>or informed, but also just different. Yeah, just different, sure,

0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:41.480
<v Speaker 1>a different set of like a.

0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:44.759
<v Speaker 4>Different different different values. It's different worldview, yeah for sure.

0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:45.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:47.759
<v Speaker 4>Now to get you know, come a little bit full

0:34:47.760 --> 0:34:50.440
<v Speaker 4>circle here talking about you know what your buddy was observing.

0:34:50.480 --> 0:34:53.760
<v Speaker 4>It was doing depredation work and Oregon I'm in contact

0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:55.759
<v Speaker 4>with it. You know a bunch of people federal trappers

0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:58.800
<v Speaker 4>and whatnot in California who are fighting a totally uphill

0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.520
<v Speaker 4>battle on that front. But if you look at in

0:35:02.680 --> 0:35:08.160
<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty, the Department of Ficient Wildlife in California decide

0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:12.799
<v Speaker 4>again and partially in reaction to public outcry over one

0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:15.520
<v Speaker 4>of the celebrity lions, you know, the well known lions

0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:18.080
<v Speaker 4>around you know, Santa Monica Mountains or whatever that was

0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:20.000
<v Speaker 4>collared and you know, wound up being taken on a

0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:24.920
<v Speaker 4>depredation basis. Because of the hue and cry from that,

0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:30.120
<v Speaker 4>the state Department Officient Wildlife decided to implement this universal

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:36.160
<v Speaker 4>three strikes depredation policy where the actual depredation language in

0:35:36.200 --> 0:35:38.839
<v Speaker 4>one ballot won Measure one seventeen, which is what put

0:35:38.960 --> 0:35:41.719
<v Speaker 4>this opened this Pandora's box in the first place, you know,

0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:46.759
<v Speaker 4>thirty five years ago. It does have reasonable depredation provisions

0:35:46.800 --> 0:35:50.840
<v Speaker 4>in it where it basically says that if a livestock producer,

0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:55.200
<v Speaker 4>pet owner, whatever can you know, can demonstrate that there

0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:58.560
<v Speaker 4>was a single instance of depredation by a lion, the

0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:03.480
<v Speaker 4>state is supposed to shoe a lethal shell issue language

0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:07.160
<v Speaker 4>depredation permit to be able to you know, get a

0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:09.799
<v Speaker 4>you know contract with the trapper or whatever to go

0:36:09.840 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 4>ahead and lethally pursue that animal. Well, they change that

0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:19.440
<v Speaker 4>again because of I think just cosmetic reasons, like wanting

0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.800
<v Speaker 4>to appear to a certain set of the California voting population.

0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:28.640
<v Speaker 4>They changed that in two thy twenty to a universal

0:36:28.680 --> 0:36:33.040
<v Speaker 4>three strikes policy, in which now a single landowner has

0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:38.200
<v Speaker 4>to demonstrate that multiple incidents of depredation have occurred from

0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:42.920
<v Speaker 4>the same lion before they will issue a lethal depredation permit.

0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:46.040
<v Speaker 1>So it's like the thing with the felons, like three strikes,

0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:49.040
<v Speaker 1>like three felons, you know. Now, I don't know when

0:36:49.040 --> 0:36:51.000
<v Speaker 1>that was fashionable. I remember that being coming a thing

0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:53.160
<v Speaker 1>in Michigan. Yea, when I was growing up. Yeah, they

0:36:53.160 --> 0:36:57.960
<v Speaker 1>had the okay, like your third felony, you're out.

0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:02.040
<v Speaker 4>Right, yeah, like it's a baseball up until then.

0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:04.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just try to calm down.

0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:07.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah yeah, so you've committed, that's enough.

0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:08.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:10.160
<v Speaker 4>Let me just like close this point with this, because

0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:15.320
<v Speaker 4>this is really critical. Between nineteen ninety five and twenty nineteen,

0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:21.880
<v Speaker 4>there were a dozen lion attacks on humans in the

0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:26.640
<v Speaker 4>state of California with no with one fatality. In two

0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 4>thousand and four, I believe a mountain biker in southern California,

0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:34.400
<v Speaker 4>Orange County or right, I think so. Yeah, between twenty

0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:38.560
<v Speaker 4>twenty and now after they changed that depredation permit policy,

0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:43.919
<v Speaker 4>there have been nine attacks on humans, with Tailing representing

0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:47.680
<v Speaker 4>the single fatality out of that group. But I mean,

0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:49.359
<v Speaker 4>if you think about that, you have a twenty five

0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:52.239
<v Speaker 4>year period in which they're doing, you know, the more

0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:55.840
<v Speaker 4>traditional prescription for depredation permits, and you get a dozen

0:37:55.920 --> 0:38:00.000
<v Speaker 4>attacks literally the same year that that depredation policy change.

0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:03.480
<v Speaker 4>Is that put into motion of four year nine attack

0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:09.959
<v Speaker 4>tally on humans? Yeah? So I mean is it anecdotal, Yeah,

0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:12.799
<v Speaker 4>to a degree, But is it like difficult to sort

0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:15.400
<v Speaker 4>of argue with them, you know math? I mean I

0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:19.160
<v Speaker 4>don't think it is, especially when again, I mean the

0:38:19.400 --> 0:38:22.959
<v Speaker 4>just the number of daylight sightings and livestock and pet

0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:27.680
<v Speaker 4>depredations has just skyrocketed during the same period.

0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:32.800
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's in California, mounta lions kill mountain lions, vehicles

0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:37.440
<v Speaker 5>kill mountain lions, and secondary rodenticide poisoning kills mountain lions.

0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:39.920
<v Speaker 4>And that's about it except for the playing that.

0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:44.600
<v Speaker 5>Well, a lot of landscaping golf courses in California, and

0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:48.560
<v Speaker 5>so they use a lot of rodenticide, and then the

0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:54.960
<v Speaker 5>foxes coyotes eat the squirrels that have died from rodenticide,

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:57.799
<v Speaker 5>and then the mountain lions knock those guys out.

0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:01.759
<v Speaker 1>Is that a thing that has the happen from long

0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:03.840
<v Speaker 1>term exposure or is that a one Can that be

0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:04.759
<v Speaker 1>a one and done deal?

0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:06.520
<v Speaker 5>It can be a one and done deal, but it's

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:08.920
<v Speaker 5>not going to be like the single factor from all

0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:11.920
<v Speaker 5>the all the stuff I've read. I'm not an expert here, right,

0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:15.600
<v Speaker 5>but it is it's a compounding condition because a rodenticide

0:39:15.719 --> 0:39:21.120
<v Speaker 5>is an anti coagulant and so like also it's like

0:39:21.280 --> 0:39:24.680
<v Speaker 5>how much is that cat getting from eating something that's

0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:25.400
<v Speaker 5>eating something?

0:39:25.560 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Right, So there's another thing at play I think

0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:37.760
<v Speaker 1>when it comes to California and public perception of predators,

0:39:38.239 --> 0:39:42.239
<v Speaker 1>and it's it's for for expecting the public to have

0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:48.879
<v Speaker 1>the kind of mental elasticity to understand that different places

0:39:49.160 --> 0:39:53.640
<v Speaker 1>have different situations and to and to back out on

0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:56.000
<v Speaker 1>that and use another example to illustrate what I'm saying

0:39:56.040 --> 0:40:02.640
<v Speaker 1>on a broader scale, it would be that that elk Okay, yeah,

0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:08.080
<v Speaker 1>elk have only been recovered or let's say elk only

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:12.640
<v Speaker 1>exist on fourteen percent of their native range in the

0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:22.279
<v Speaker 1>lower forty eight Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee. Like that was

0:40:22.320 --> 0:40:25.320
<v Speaker 1>elk country. Oh yeah, everywhere was elk country.

0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:27.279
<v Speaker 4>There's buffalo country from.

0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:32.600
<v Speaker 1>The hunter, yeah, from the Yeah, there were western Minnesota. Okay, yeah,

0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:37.080
<v Speaker 1>so you had the like you had eastern forests with elk,

0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:41.640
<v Speaker 1>like and Daniel boone day the hunted elk. Yep, they're

0:40:41.680 --> 0:40:47.200
<v Speaker 1>not there now. But you're able to have conversations about

0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:51.560
<v Speaker 1>there being too many elk in Colorado coming from an

0:40:51.560 --> 0:40:55.120
<v Speaker 1>agricultural perspective, and no one says, well, how could that

0:40:55.200 --> 0:41:00.840
<v Speaker 1>be true. They haven't been recovered in Tennessee, right, But

0:41:00.920 --> 0:41:03.600
<v Speaker 1>you're able to say, well, because it's a different place

0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:06.520
<v Speaker 1>and there's a different thing going on, and what's happening

0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:08.799
<v Speaker 1>in one place isn't happening in another place. So I

0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:12.440
<v Speaker 1>think that when they had the the when they all that,

0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:16.680
<v Speaker 1>that that excitement for years with the guy that got

0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:20.040
<v Speaker 1>the picture of the lion by the Hollywood sign, and

0:41:20.080 --> 0:41:23.440
<v Speaker 1>it was just this lion that was you know, isolated

0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:26.440
<v Speaker 1>and boxed in by highways, and there was this big,

0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:31.279
<v Speaker 1>like outpouring of empathy for this cat living in this

0:41:31.440 --> 0:41:38.239
<v Speaker 1>unexpected landscape. Socially isolated, soul, full of risk. Right. You

0:41:38.320 --> 0:41:40.800
<v Speaker 1>hear that, and hear that, hear that, and it creates

0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:45.360
<v Speaker 1>in your head a image of something that is desperately imperiled,

0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:51.000
<v Speaker 1>and then that's in your head, and then it becomes

0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:53.000
<v Speaker 1>hard to understand that you can go a few hundred

0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:57.160
<v Speaker 1>miles away into a different range of hills, a different

0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:00.719
<v Speaker 1>mountain range, and have a completely different situation on the ground.

0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:03.400
<v Speaker 4>Sure, and along with that, I mean the you know,

0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:08.840
<v Speaker 4>the more urban and suburb urban population down there, they're

0:42:08.880 --> 0:42:14.279
<v Speaker 4>assuming that the entire state. It probably unconsciously, but there's

0:42:14.360 --> 0:42:17.040
<v Speaker 4>there's a presumption that the entire state looks like they're

0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:20.440
<v Speaker 4>swimming pool and you know, yard fans six houses to

0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:25.799
<v Speaker 4>an acre southern California track development. But it doesn't. I mean,

0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:30.480
<v Speaker 4>the the rural foothills where we're from are still I mean,

0:42:30.640 --> 0:42:34.520
<v Speaker 4>there's so much of that is literally undevelopable just because

0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:36.680
<v Speaker 4>of the geographic nature of the terrain.

0:42:37.520 --> 0:42:40.400
<v Speaker 5>And then the brush situation in California, just like we

0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:42.839
<v Speaker 5>talked about the poison oak, you can hide a lot

0:42:42.880 --> 0:42:43.680
<v Speaker 5>of animals.

0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:43.880
<v Speaker 1>In that stuff.

0:42:43.920 --> 0:42:45.959
<v Speaker 4>Oh absolutely, just are not going to get seen.

0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I recently did the drive from uh,

0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:54.720
<v Speaker 1>Sacramento to over by Fort Bragg.

0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:58.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the Russian River area, dude, unbelievable.

0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:02.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean just the country in there and the ship

0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:04.440
<v Speaker 1>that you would not want to I mean not not

0:43:04.600 --> 0:43:06.880
<v Speaker 1>want to, but it would be like hard stuff to

0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:07.319
<v Speaker 1>go through.

0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:09.960
<v Speaker 4>Oh, totally. I mean even if you go down your country,

0:43:10.080 --> 0:43:13.920
<v Speaker 4>go down like Highway one by like big sur or

0:43:14.040 --> 0:43:18.640
<v Speaker 4>go the whole state is Yes, there were huge dense

0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:22.080
<v Speaker 4>population zones, but it is a massive state with a

0:43:22.120 --> 0:43:25.719
<v Speaker 4>lot of a very wild land in it. Still, Yeah,

0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:26.720
<v Speaker 4>for sure.

0:43:28.160 --> 0:43:32.440
<v Speaker 1>Why how how comfortable are you talking about the day

0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:33.640
<v Speaker 1>you and your brother were attacked?

0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:38.799
<v Speaker 6>Uh? I think I'd be fine talking about it.

0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me what, uh kind of how the

0:43:43.520 --> 0:43:46.480
<v Speaker 1>morning went whatever, Like what you guys, what your plan was,

0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:51.080
<v Speaker 1>what you guys did? Yes, So how it came to

0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:52.759
<v Speaker 1>be that you decided to go out with your brother?

0:43:53.000 --> 0:43:57.719
<v Speaker 6>Like, well, we were just sitting at home board and

0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:00.440
<v Speaker 6>so I asked them if you wanted to go, and

0:44:00.480 --> 0:44:03.000
<v Speaker 6>so we both decided just to go try a new spot.

0:44:04.560 --> 0:44:09.280
<v Speaker 6>So we drove up there and there was a gated

0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:12.960
<v Speaker 6>for a service road, so I just pulled off the

0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:16.200
<v Speaker 6>side and we just decided to walk that road.

0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Had you seen other folks around?

0:44:18.800 --> 0:44:22.399
<v Speaker 6>There was one one other car pretty close to us

0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:26.279
<v Speaker 6>because there was like a walking trail that they were

0:44:26.280 --> 0:44:31.320
<v Speaker 6>stopped at, and then but we pulled up past them.

0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:35.000
<v Speaker 5>Were you doing the classic Hunters mental gymnastics of like,

0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:38.239
<v Speaker 5>is that somebody looking for sheds that's parked at the

0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:42.600
<v Speaker 5>hiking trail or is that some old lady walking her poodle?

0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:44.120
<v Speaker 6>Mm?

0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:48.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I don't care. I know what Cal's

0:44:48.840 --> 0:44:50.640
<v Speaker 1>saying because I have the problem. I could be out

0:44:50.680 --> 0:44:55.440
<v Speaker 1>doing the most esoteric thing on the planet, like I

0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:57.480
<v Speaker 1>could be. Let's say I wanted to find a railroad

0:44:57.480 --> 0:44:59.959
<v Speaker 1>spike for some reason, and I see a car park

0:45:00.040 --> 0:45:04.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm like some of the bitches looking for ver, Like

0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:08.040
<v Speaker 1>every car is doing what I'm trying to do in

0:45:08.080 --> 0:45:08.719
<v Speaker 1>my head.

0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:13.000
<v Speaker 5>Beat me too, Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:14.799
<v Speaker 1>Sons of bitches are looking for more else.

0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:18.919
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, anxiety walking their dog.

0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:24.360
<v Speaker 5>So you guys get parked and you start walking it

0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:26.520
<v Speaker 5>up the for a service road.

0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:26.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:30.000
<v Speaker 6>Then we get like one hundred and fifty yards away

0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:33.840
<v Speaker 6>from my car and I'm looking up to the left

0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:35.920
<v Speaker 6>because the right side of the road is just steep,

0:45:36.960 --> 0:45:40.880
<v Speaker 6>so I wasn't looking down there so as I'm looking

0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:43.480
<v Speaker 6>to my left, I see something like out of the

0:45:43.480 --> 0:45:46.240
<v Speaker 6>corner of my eye come up from the steep side

0:45:47.040 --> 0:45:50.879
<v Speaker 6>up onto the road. At first, I just thought it

0:45:50.920 --> 0:45:53.879
<v Speaker 6>was a dog. That was the first thing that came

0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:58.080
<v Speaker 6>to mind. And then that's when I turned and looked

0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:00.719
<v Speaker 6>and realizing, and so I told my brother to look,

0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:05.799
<v Speaker 6>and but it only it came up like ten yards

0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:06.720
<v Speaker 6>away from us.

0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:08.720
<v Speaker 5>And you feel like you're one hundred and fifty yards

0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:11.560
<v Speaker 5>from the car from where you parked further from the gate.

0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:17.719
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, we were walking for like five minutes, like yeah,

0:46:17.760 --> 0:46:25.879
<v Speaker 6>what time of day? Mmm, like one one thirty, just midday, but.

0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:30.480
<v Speaker 5>The heat of the day, I would say it like that.

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:39.560
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, so I look telling my brother to look.

0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:43.440
<v Speaker 6>He looks, and then so we both just start putting

0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:47.280
<v Speaker 6>our arms up and yelling at it. But it doesn't

0:46:48.000 --> 0:46:50.400
<v Speaker 6>care at all. It just looks calm, and it's just

0:46:50.480 --> 0:46:56.000
<v Speaker 6>walking towards us slowly. And so we're backpedaling down the road,

0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:58.799
<v Speaker 6>which the line was above us because it was the

0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:05.200
<v Speaker 6>road was heading down, and so it's just walking towards us,

0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:08.040
<v Speaker 6>and the only thing I could think of is to

0:47:08.040 --> 0:47:10.640
<v Speaker 6>throw my backpack at it, because I had a backpack on,

0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:16.920
<v Speaker 6>so I sling that off, throw it at it, and

0:47:16.960 --> 0:47:20.400
<v Speaker 6>it hits the left side of its face, but it

0:47:20.480 --> 0:47:23.480
<v Speaker 6>kind of like it didn't even really flinch, like it

0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:27.920
<v Speaker 6>just closed that left eye. And then the backpack hit

0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:29.520
<v Speaker 6>it in the left side of the face and then

0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:33.800
<v Speaker 6>just skimmed across its body. But it didn't care. It

0:47:33.960 --> 0:47:35.160
<v Speaker 6>just kept walking at us.

0:47:35.560 --> 0:47:38.799
<v Speaker 3>And then were you guys still yelling or able to

0:47:38.840 --> 0:47:41.600
<v Speaker 3>stay calm or hmm?

0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:46.359
<v Speaker 6>At that point it was I guess like the adrenaline

0:47:46.480 --> 0:47:47.040
<v Speaker 6>was kicking in.

0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:53.680
<v Speaker 5>This is so bizarre, so bizarre, middle of the day,

0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:56.719
<v Speaker 5>one hundred and fifty yards from the truck. I've called

0:47:56.719 --> 0:47:59.759
<v Speaker 5>in two kats in the last two turkey out and

0:47:59.760 --> 0:48:06.080
<v Speaker 5>sees in like places where I really had to walk in. Yeah,

0:48:06.120 --> 0:48:08.719
<v Speaker 5>and both of those cats were more than happy to

0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:09.560
<v Speaker 5>get the hell out of there.

0:48:09.600 --> 0:48:11.719
<v Speaker 1>When I stood up and looked at.

0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:14.880
<v Speaker 5>Them, once they made looked made eye contact, those cats

0:48:14.880 --> 0:48:18.040
<v Speaker 5>were gone. Yeah, So hitting it in the face with

0:48:18.160 --> 0:48:21.280
<v Speaker 5>anything is just insane.

0:48:20.840 --> 0:48:25.160
<v Speaker 6>And it didn't care. And then so yeah, my brother's

0:48:25.280 --> 0:48:28.120
<v Speaker 6>like I'm on the left side of the road, he's

0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:30.400
<v Speaker 6>on the right, but he's a little bit behind me,

0:48:31.800 --> 0:48:34.320
<v Speaker 6>and it's like me and the line are just locked

0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:39.560
<v Speaker 6>eyes with each other, and so it's just walking towards me.

0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:42.480
<v Speaker 6>But I didn't want to run, so we're just we

0:48:42.560 --> 0:48:47.640
<v Speaker 6>start to speed up, back pedaling, and there's a there

0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:52.759
<v Speaker 6>was a stick in the road laying sideways, and so

0:48:53.400 --> 0:48:55.640
<v Speaker 6>I'm back pedaling and I start to speed up and

0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:58.600
<v Speaker 6>then I step on that and my foot slips out

0:48:58.640 --> 0:49:03.640
<v Speaker 6>from under me, so I fall down. But at that point,

0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:07.880
<v Speaker 6>the lion's already like, I don't know, six or seven

0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:12.160
<v Speaker 6>yards in front of me. So I fall and then

0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:15.160
<v Speaker 6>I just remember the line comes around my left side,

0:49:15.520 --> 0:49:18.759
<v Speaker 6>and then that's when it bites me. So I kind

0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:22.000
<v Speaker 6>of put my arms up. And then after it bites,

0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:25.040
<v Speaker 6>I grab it and I flip it over and I

0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:27.600
<v Speaker 6>get on top of it, and I like have my

0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:33.239
<v Speaker 6>arms on its neck pushing it down. I imagine it

0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:36.360
<v Speaker 6>doesn't like that, no, so then it starts clawing at me.

0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.920
<v Speaker 1>It is it big, the lion? Yeah?

0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:47.799
<v Speaker 6>Uh, it seemed big to me, but it was what

0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:49.000
<v Speaker 6>like ninety pounds?

0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:51.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean I think it was. It was like

0:49:51.320 --> 0:49:58.440
<v Speaker 4>a juvenile mail basically probably approximate little a little over

0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:02.040
<v Speaker 4>like a half the size that they can't actually get

0:50:02.080 --> 0:50:03.960
<v Speaker 4>to yeah, so.

0:50:03.960 --> 0:50:05.799
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, so I flip it over, I get on top

0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:09.640
<v Speaker 6>of it, and then that's when it starts clawing me,

0:50:09.760 --> 0:50:11.839
<v Speaker 6>so I kind of release my grip a little bit

0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:16.960
<v Speaker 6>so it manages to spin out from under me. And

0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:20.440
<v Speaker 6>then but it all happened so fast to where my

0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:23.920
<v Speaker 6>brother couldn't really even do anything to help me. So

0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:27.000
<v Speaker 6>he was still standing behind me to my right. So

0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:30.680
<v Speaker 6>when the lion got up and spun around, like, my

0:50:30.680 --> 0:50:36.279
<v Speaker 6>brother was right there. So then the lion ran at him,

0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:39.239
<v Speaker 6>jumped up on his back legs, took him down, but

0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:43.040
<v Speaker 6>it just went straight for his neck, so there wasn't

0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:49.120
<v Speaker 6>much he could do. And then so I get up

0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:54.719
<v Speaker 6>and like, as that's happening, I remember, like I just

0:50:54.840 --> 0:50:59.440
<v Speaker 6>stand there in the road and I touched my face

0:50:59.480 --> 0:51:02.800
<v Speaker 6>and look because it felt like a dream, like didn't

0:51:03.040 --> 0:51:06.480
<v Speaker 6>It was weird, So I kind of had to I

0:51:06.560 --> 0:51:10.520
<v Speaker 6>like told myself, like, this is actually happening, and so

0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:13.080
<v Speaker 6>I have to, like I like snap back into it.

0:51:13.560 --> 0:51:17.279
<v Speaker 6>And then that's when I went for my brother. So

0:51:17.680 --> 0:51:22.520
<v Speaker 6>I just grabbed the lion and kind of tug a

0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:26.360
<v Speaker 6>few times, but that's all I really did. But I

0:51:26.400 --> 0:51:30.560
<v Speaker 6>couldn't get it to let go and at that point,

0:51:30.600 --> 0:51:34.759
<v Speaker 6>I was feeling kind of weak because I had been

0:51:34.800 --> 0:51:36.200
<v Speaker 6>losing a lot of blood.

0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:38.840
<v Speaker 1>And then.

0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:46.000
<v Speaker 6>So after I tried tugging, can't get it to get

0:51:46.040 --> 0:51:48.680
<v Speaker 6>off of him, trying to think of what to do,

0:51:50.200 --> 0:51:54.160
<v Speaker 6>and all I can think of is my car, because

0:51:54.200 --> 0:52:01.200
<v Speaker 6>I know that they're scared of vehicles. So at that point, well,

0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:04.480
<v Speaker 6>the reason I did that is because the whole time

0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:07.440
<v Speaker 6>my brother had his arms like I could see. I

0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:10.880
<v Speaker 6>could never see his face because the line was in

0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:13.960
<v Speaker 6>between me and my brother's face, but I could see

0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:20.680
<v Speaker 6>his arms doing something up here. But as time went

0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:25.600
<v Speaker 6>on and they ended up like almost off the side

0:52:25.640 --> 0:52:29.400
<v Speaker 6>of the hill, but I could see that by that

0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:35.799
<v Speaker 6>point his arms were just like limp now, not holding yeah,

0:52:35.920 --> 0:52:39.279
<v Speaker 6>not holding it anymore, and he wasn't moving, So I

0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:41.520
<v Speaker 6>pretty much I just knew there was like nothing else

0:52:41.560 --> 0:52:44.040
<v Speaker 6>I could really do. So that's when I thought of

0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:48.359
<v Speaker 6>the car. So I reached for my phone to call

0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:52.600
<v Speaker 6>nine one one, and my phone's down in my pocket.

0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:54.839
<v Speaker 6>So I'm looking around from my phone and I find

0:52:54.840 --> 0:52:59.040
<v Speaker 6>it in the middle of the road, so I grab

0:52:59.080 --> 0:53:02.279
<v Speaker 6>it and then I head back to my car. I'm

0:53:02.360 --> 0:53:05.160
<v Speaker 6>jogging to my car, and I pulled my shirt off

0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:09.799
<v Speaker 6>to hold on my face stop the blood, and then

0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:12.319
<v Speaker 6>A said, I'm trying to dial nine one one, Like

0:53:12.360 --> 0:53:16.240
<v Speaker 6>the blood kept dripping on my phone so it wasn't typing.

0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:19.560
<v Speaker 6>So eventually I got that off and got it to work.

0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:24.040
<v Speaker 6>So I as I'm running to my car, I'm on

0:53:24.080 --> 0:53:28.400
<v Speaker 6>the phone with nine one one, and then make it

0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:30.640
<v Speaker 6>to my car and then I have to drive around

0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:34.720
<v Speaker 6>the locked gate. So I'm driving through like small trees

0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:39.319
<v Speaker 6>and rocks, and then I get onto the road make

0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:41.759
<v Speaker 6>my way down there. But by the time I drove

0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:45.200
<v Speaker 6>down there, they were both gone. So I flip around

0:53:46.320 --> 0:53:49.560
<v Speaker 6>and I'm looking out the left side out the window.

0:53:49.600 --> 0:53:50.839
<v Speaker 6>I'm looking down the hill.

0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:55.239
<v Speaker 5>But sorry, so your brother and the cat are no

0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:58.600
<v Speaker 5>longer on the road. Yeah, and but you have a

0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:01.520
<v Speaker 5>good idea where it all happened. Your backpacks laying there

0:54:01.600 --> 0:54:01.960
<v Speaker 5>or something.

0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:05.960
<v Speaker 6>Backpack was in the middle of the road. Yeah, and

0:54:06.000 --> 0:54:09.279
<v Speaker 6>I knew right where it had happened. But so yeah,

0:54:09.360 --> 0:54:12.960
<v Speaker 6>So I so I'm looking out the window down the hill,

0:54:13.000 --> 0:54:17.880
<v Speaker 6>but I still don't see anything. So then I just

0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:25.000
<v Speaker 6>asked what I should do to the dispatcher, and so

0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:28.719
<v Speaker 6>I just went I drove to the backside of the gate,

0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:31.880
<v Speaker 6>and I just parked there and waited for someone to

0:54:31.920 --> 0:54:32.399
<v Speaker 6>show up.

0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Did they have any sense of what you were talking

0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:39.480
<v Speaker 1>about when you called? I mean, did they have any

0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:42.120
<v Speaker 1>like did it seem like an inform Probably not like

0:54:42.160 --> 0:54:43.759
<v Speaker 1>an informed opinion about this?

0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:47.160
<v Speaker 6>Well, what do you mean?

0:54:47.280 --> 0:54:49.640
<v Speaker 1>I probably had never dealt like the dispatch. Oh yeah,

0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:53.320
<v Speaker 1>no idea? What yeah, no idea how to deal with someone?

0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:55.160
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, no idea.

0:54:55.360 --> 0:54:58.920
<v Speaker 5>So it was probably just okay, stay calm, somebody's going

0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:01.440
<v Speaker 5>to be there type of stuff. M m.

0:55:01.600 --> 0:55:01.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:55:02.000 --> 0:55:06.520
<v Speaker 6>Like it wasn't really helping much by telling me what

0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:06.879
<v Speaker 6>to do.

0:55:07.400 --> 0:55:10.200
<v Speaker 1>But did you have to direct then when they came?

0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Did you take someone to the area?

0:55:14.480 --> 0:55:16.760
<v Speaker 6>No, I didn't take them, but it was like a

0:55:16.840 --> 0:55:20.520
<v Speaker 6>star volunteer car was the first car that showed up,

0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:26.160
<v Speaker 6>and they had a dog and a pistol, and so

0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:27.879
<v Speaker 6>they just came up to me and I told them

0:55:27.920 --> 0:55:29.840
<v Speaker 6>right where to go. I said, like you'd see the

0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:33.319
<v Speaker 6>backpack in the road, and then so they went down

0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:36.400
<v Speaker 6>there and then I was just waiting still.

0:55:37.520 --> 0:55:40.759
<v Speaker 1>Then they shot the lion. No, No, that was later.

0:55:40.840 --> 0:55:41.560
<v Speaker 6>That was later on.

0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:42.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:55:43.080 --> 0:55:47.800
<v Speaker 6>I don't even know if that person saw it, because

0:55:47.840 --> 0:55:53.200
<v Speaker 6>it had it had drag tailing quite a ways down

0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:53.680
<v Speaker 6>that hill.

0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:59.920
<v Speaker 4>The Star volunteers are like a community watch type, you know,

0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:03.360
<v Speaker 4>volunteer outfit. They're They're really not like L A O

0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:04.879
<v Speaker 4>or right.

0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:11.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's horrifying.

0:56:11.440 --> 0:56:14.600
<v Speaker 6>Man, Wow, it sucked.

0:56:15.040 --> 0:56:15.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:56:15.280 --> 0:56:18.520
<v Speaker 4>I don't know, like you know how much this is

0:56:18.640 --> 0:56:21.879
<v Speaker 4>like within the protocol of this. But last night why

0:56:21.920 --> 0:56:25.080
<v Speaker 4>It talked to the first responding paramedic for the first

0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:28.560
<v Speaker 4>time or two nights ago, I guess, but he said,

0:56:28.600 --> 0:56:31.960
<v Speaker 4>wyat pictures from the field of what whyatts of his

0:56:32.000 --> 0:56:36.799
<v Speaker 4>injuries out there and which I mean I looked at

0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:40.440
<v Speaker 4>him last night. I mean, do you feel comfortable showing

0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:42.319
<v Speaker 4>those to these guys just so, because I mean it

0:56:42.360 --> 0:56:46.239
<v Speaker 4>really is highly illustrative of exactly how like crazy this

0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:50.080
<v Speaker 4>whole thing was, of your of your injuries of me.

0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:52.920
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, do you remember because you have some some scars

0:56:52.960 --> 0:56:56.319
<v Speaker 5>on your face. I assume that's from the cat. Was

0:56:56.360 --> 0:56:59.880
<v Speaker 5>that when he first whacked you, like right when you

0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:02.759
<v Speaker 5>fell or was that from clawing when you got on

0:57:02.800 --> 0:57:04.640
<v Speaker 5>top of the cat or do you remember it all?

0:57:04.880 --> 0:57:07.799
<v Speaker 6>I remember, No, it was just the first It only

0:57:07.840 --> 0:57:11.000
<v Speaker 6>bit me once, and that's what the scars are from.

0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:15.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh, so that that's teeth. Yeah, wow, that's wild.

0:57:15.440 --> 0:57:18.640
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, went like through my nose well.

0:57:18.800 --> 0:57:22.640
<v Speaker 5>Before we go on. Man, it's horrifying. It is brutal,

0:57:22.840 --> 0:57:26.200
<v Speaker 5>and I'm so sorry you and the family had to.

0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:26.680
<v Speaker 1>Go through this.

0:57:26.960 --> 0:57:27.320
<v Speaker 6>Thank you.

0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:31.560
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's all I can think about. Man, that's very,

0:57:31.640 --> 0:57:32.120
<v Speaker 5>very hard.

0:57:33.880 --> 0:57:43.840
<v Speaker 6>But if you guys want to see the pictures.

0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:44.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I guess that's the other thing that it kind

0:57:44.160 --> 0:57:47.720
<v Speaker 4>of demonstrates has hold brilliant. The plastic surgeon who worked

0:57:47.720 --> 0:57:48.480
<v Speaker 4>on him was.

0:57:49.760 --> 0:57:51.640
<v Speaker 6>And there's one more picture you can scroll.

0:57:52.520 --> 0:57:57.479
<v Speaker 5>So did you how long roughly how long before any

0:57:57.680 --> 0:58:00.000
<v Speaker 5>any sort of emergency services chill up?

0:58:01.040 --> 0:58:05.400
<v Speaker 6>There was some deputies who showed up within like fifteen minutes,

0:58:05.440 --> 0:58:09.600
<v Speaker 6>i'd say, and then the medic came shortly after, like

0:58:09.680 --> 0:58:12.560
<v Speaker 6>twenty minutes. It took them to get there.

0:58:13.680 --> 0:58:16.960
<v Speaker 5>But but I imagine even with the deputies there, it

0:58:17.000 --> 0:58:18.760
<v Speaker 5>was probably just up to you to keep holding your

0:58:18.760 --> 0:58:19.560
<v Speaker 5>shirt to your face.

0:58:20.160 --> 0:58:22.680
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, they didn't really help.

0:58:22.760 --> 0:58:24.600
<v Speaker 5>I'm sure they didn't want much to do with it.

0:58:24.840 --> 0:58:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:58:25.400 --> 0:58:28.640
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, But as soon as the medic got there, though,

0:58:28.840 --> 0:58:29.880
<v Speaker 6>then they started helping.

0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Was your brother? Was your brother pronounced dead on the scene.

0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:39.120
<v Speaker 6>No, we didn't find out till that night in the hospital.

0:58:41.320 --> 0:58:45.640
<v Speaker 6>It was pretty late when we found out, right.

0:58:46.560 --> 0:58:47.960
<v Speaker 1>But earlier.

0:58:48.960 --> 0:58:53.040
<v Speaker 2>The share the deputies and the sheriff had figured it

0:58:53.080 --> 0:58:55.600
<v Speaker 2>out right before we knew.

0:58:55.720 --> 0:58:59.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh so yeah, well there was nothing they could do

0:58:59.080 --> 0:59:01.520
<v Speaker 1>to try to help them. I mean he was no,

0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:04.360
<v Speaker 1>he was dead when they found him.

0:59:04.560 --> 0:59:06.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, if you had to guess from the time you

0:59:06.800 --> 0:59:10.200
<v Speaker 3>saw that mountain lion till the time you know, you

0:59:10.280 --> 0:59:14.160
<v Speaker 3>had to go back to the truck, Like, was that

0:59:14.280 --> 0:59:15.560
<v Speaker 3>like within a few minutes.

0:59:15.800 --> 0:59:18.480
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, like just like a couple of minutes. Yeah, it

0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:21.240
<v Speaker 6>was really fast, gotcha. Yeah.

0:59:21.240 --> 0:59:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Man, this is gonna be like a dumb question because

0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:28.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean this will you already know this? This is good,

0:59:28.360 --> 0:59:32.680
<v Speaker 1>This is will be the defining experience of your life.

0:59:33.360 --> 0:59:36.439
<v Speaker 1>But you're already aware of this, right Yeah, it never

0:59:36.480 --> 0:59:40.320
<v Speaker 1>goes away, You'll it'll impact you in all manner of

0:59:40.920 --> 0:59:43.479
<v Speaker 1>ways for as long as you're on earth.

0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:44.280
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:59:44.560 --> 0:59:50.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, just like looking at a small detail that

0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:54.480
<v Speaker 1>do you do you've like, do you feel this will

0:59:54.840 --> 0:59:59.560
<v Speaker 1>transform your kind of like your relationship with with nature?

0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you still feel drawn to go out to go hunting?

1:00:03.080 --> 1:00:06.040
<v Speaker 1>Do you still feel drawn to be around animals or

1:00:06.080 --> 1:00:08.600
<v Speaker 1>did it sort of kill that in you.

1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:13.439
<v Speaker 6>No, I actually went turkey hunting like just a couple

1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:18.400
<v Speaker 6>of weeks after it had happened in Gotlin. So I

1:00:18.440 --> 1:00:21.840
<v Speaker 6>still feel the same about hunting and all that stuff.

1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:23.120
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm.

1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:28.160
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, I didn't really have an effect on going out.

1:00:30.160 --> 1:00:33.560
<v Speaker 1>What are what are the things like from a daily perspective?

1:00:33.600 --> 1:00:37.040
<v Speaker 1>What are the things you kind of remember most or

1:00:37.160 --> 1:00:40.200
<v Speaker 1>will miss most about your brother? Mmmm?

1:00:42.960 --> 1:00:46.800
<v Speaker 6>Just hanging out because we always shared a room together,

1:00:48.280 --> 1:00:53.440
<v Speaker 6>so now it's just kind of empty. I guess you

1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:56.640
<v Speaker 6>guys shared a room at the time. Yeah, yeah, we've

1:00:56.640 --> 1:00:58.080
<v Speaker 6>shared a room like our whole life.

1:00:59.400 --> 1:01:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel a different when you're out turkey hunting?

1:01:02.600 --> 1:01:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel a different fear in the woods?

1:01:06.080 --> 1:01:10.240
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it's I'm definitely a lot more scared being out there,

1:01:11.640 --> 1:01:14.240
<v Speaker 6>but when I'm with people, I'm fine.

1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:19.720
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, Aaron, how is this Has this changed your

1:01:21.960 --> 1:01:26.040
<v Speaker 1>desire to be out your relationship with being out a

1:01:26.040 --> 1:01:26.480
<v Speaker 1>little bit?

1:01:27.800 --> 1:01:31.520
<v Speaker 2>I didn't turkey hunt at all last spring season, which

1:01:31.560 --> 1:01:36.080
<v Speaker 2>is super weird. Yeah, usually we hunt every single day

1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:40.400
<v Speaker 2>of the entire season, but I didn't hunt at all.

1:01:40.440 --> 1:01:43.840
<v Speaker 2>I went with Wyatt just a handful of times, just

1:01:43.880 --> 1:01:45.680
<v Speaker 2>to go with him to try to get him one,

1:01:46.560 --> 1:01:52.080
<v Speaker 2>but just feels totally different. Constantly looking over my shoulder

1:01:52.160 --> 1:01:54.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's kind of scary.

1:01:55.600 --> 1:01:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, do you feel that you'll find your

1:01:59.400 --> 1:02:00.600
<v Speaker 1>way back in it in time.

1:02:02.400 --> 1:02:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, It's just this happened right before Turkey season open,

1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:08.520
<v Speaker 2>so's like.

1:02:10.080 --> 1:02:10.919
<v Speaker 4>It was pretty raw.

1:02:11.800 --> 1:02:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I didn't have any motivation to go hunting of course.

1:02:15.960 --> 1:02:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So man, I'm sorry that happened you guys man. Thanks, Yeah,

1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:29.960
<v Speaker 1>I came picture, uh having that happened to a brother.

1:02:31.480 --> 1:02:32.560
<v Speaker 1>Do you have all the siblings.

1:02:33.680 --> 1:02:37.720
<v Speaker 6>I have a half sister, but I was calling my sister.

1:02:38.600 --> 1:02:40.760
<v Speaker 6>She cool, Yeah, that's good.

1:02:44.840 --> 1:02:45.600
<v Speaker 4>You passed the task.

1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:46.840
<v Speaker 1>Good job.

1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:49.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's one of it's one of those things that

1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:52.600
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's like, oh that that'll never that that

1:02:52.680 --> 1:02:55.480
<v Speaker 3>kind of stuff would never happen to us, right, Yeah,

1:02:56.640 --> 1:02:59.520
<v Speaker 3>you know, we're we're out in the field all the time,

1:02:59.600 --> 1:03:04.680
<v Speaker 3>and you know, I have had experiences that are definitely scary.

1:03:05.440 --> 1:03:09.120
<v Speaker 3>But like, for instance, my buddy, I'm not going to

1:03:09.200 --> 1:03:12.120
<v Speaker 3>mention his name, but a couple of years ago had

1:03:12.120 --> 1:03:16.520
<v Speaker 3>a mountain lion while he was el hunting, called it

1:03:16.560 --> 1:03:20.080
<v Speaker 3>in and it was about ten yards from him, staring

1:03:20.120 --> 1:03:24.160
<v Speaker 3>at him for a few minutes, he threw sticks at it,

1:03:26.240 --> 1:03:30.040
<v Speaker 3>yelled at it, shot an arrow over its back, and

1:03:30.120 --> 1:03:35.200
<v Speaker 3>it just continued to stay there. So eventually he did

1:03:35.240 --> 1:03:38.240
<v Speaker 3>have to shoot it. But you know, he was like

1:03:38.600 --> 1:03:41.360
<v Speaker 3>lucky in that situation. You know, you just never know.

1:03:42.320 --> 1:03:45.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, oh yeah, I mean he's like he's out there

1:03:45.440 --> 1:03:47.960
<v Speaker 5>with the intent to kill something much bigger than he

1:03:48.080 --> 1:03:48.600
<v Speaker 5>is already.

1:03:48.680 --> 1:03:52.000
<v Speaker 3>And he had a traditional bow that I built him,

1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:56.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, so that cat decided he wanted to.

1:03:56.400 --> 1:03:58.280
<v Speaker 5>So you knew the bow was capable, is what you

1:03:58.320 --> 1:03:58.680
<v Speaker 5>were saying.

1:03:58.920 --> 1:04:02.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, that's but I mean, it's just it's just crazy.

1:04:02.960 --> 1:04:03.800
<v Speaker 3>It's unbelievable.

1:04:03.800 --> 1:04:07.760
<v Speaker 5>Well, this situation broad daylight, there's two of you, there's

1:04:07.840 --> 1:04:11.959
<v Speaker 5>one cat. Like it just it does not make any

1:04:12.120 --> 1:04:14.920
<v Speaker 5>conventional sense from all my time in the woods.

1:04:14.640 --> 1:04:18.160
<v Speaker 4>It's just historically just kind of unprecedented.

1:04:18.880 --> 1:04:20.480
<v Speaker 5>Hitting it with something.

1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:23.160
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, it's just.

1:04:24.320 --> 1:04:27.120
<v Speaker 1>How when when you run it through in your head,

1:04:28.240 --> 1:04:31.160
<v Speaker 1>when you like, how much does it feel to you

1:04:31.240 --> 1:04:35.120
<v Speaker 1>like what happened to you was just such a freak occurrence,

1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:38.360
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, Like it was it was

1:04:39.400 --> 1:04:42.520
<v Speaker 1>just something that could never happen again, should have never happened?

1:04:42.520 --> 1:04:44.360
<v Speaker 1>How and how much of you, does it feel like

1:04:44.400 --> 1:04:48.760
<v Speaker 1>it was a like a like an inevitability or the

1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:52.640
<v Speaker 1>result of broader things going on in your area?

1:04:54.840 --> 1:04:59.360
<v Speaker 6>Uh? Well, yeah, I just never even thought that would

1:04:59.360 --> 1:04:59.840
<v Speaker 6>ever happen.

1:05:00.080 --> 1:05:03.240
<v Speaker 1>Really, Yeah, So you don't you weren't You didn't walk

1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:08.200
<v Speaker 1>around prior to this with a sort of an awareness

1:05:08.280 --> 1:05:13.160
<v Speaker 1>of fear of worry about mountain lions in your area.

1:05:13.840 --> 1:05:18.800
<v Speaker 6>No, I mean yeah, I always had the fear of

1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:22.520
<v Speaker 6>them because I knew they were there. But I also

1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:26.920
<v Speaker 6>always had a gun on me, But in that situation,

1:05:27.000 --> 1:05:27.480
<v Speaker 6>I didn't.

1:05:28.040 --> 1:05:31.360
<v Speaker 1>So was that that road that was one hundred and

1:05:31.400 --> 1:05:33.760
<v Speaker 1>fifty miles or sorry, one hundred and fifty yards away?

1:05:33.920 --> 1:05:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Was that a busy traffick road or no?

1:05:36.880 --> 1:05:42.040
<v Speaker 6>No, it was just the old forest Service road sor

1:05:42.200 --> 1:05:45.600
<v Speaker 6>service road and it was behind a lockgate.

1:05:46.080 --> 1:05:49.880
<v Speaker 5>Oh no, no, sorry, the mainstam Steve's referring to. I think, like,

1:05:49.920 --> 1:05:53.560
<v Speaker 5>how much traffic's on the road that connected to the

1:05:53.600 --> 1:05:58.520
<v Speaker 5>forest service road that you guys hiked. It's still not real.

1:05:58.400 --> 1:06:00.800
<v Speaker 6>Still not very much, no, but very little?

1:06:01.120 --> 1:06:03.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well kind of Oh sorry.

1:06:03.480 --> 1:06:06.000
<v Speaker 4>I was gonna say, yeah, I think where the attack

1:06:06.120 --> 1:06:09.560
<v Speaker 4>happened is within like less than a mile from some

1:06:09.840 --> 1:06:13.840
<v Speaker 4>residential housing. Yeah, and so it's not super like off

1:06:13.880 --> 1:06:16.840
<v Speaker 4>the beaten Path or in the boondogspoon Ducks.

1:06:17.160 --> 1:06:18.920
<v Speaker 2>There's a little.

1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:21.080
<v Speaker 4>Development.

1:06:21.320 --> 1:06:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's houses back there, right on the edge of

1:06:24.840 --> 1:06:30.040
<v Speaker 2>private where it meets for service. So, but it's the

1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:34.320
<v Speaker 2>same lion that you said, the lady with the girls

1:06:34.320 --> 1:06:34.920
<v Speaker 2>on the bikes.

1:06:35.040 --> 1:06:40.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean I went down to California within four

1:06:40.200 --> 1:06:42.240
<v Speaker 4>or five days after this happened, just to help these

1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:45.440
<v Speaker 4>guys out. And while it was down there, it was

1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:48.240
<v Speaker 4>you know, Plasterville, California is our hometown. They used to

1:06:48.280 --> 1:06:51.280
<v Speaker 4>call it Hangtown. It was like, you know, ground zero

1:06:51.360 --> 1:06:55.000
<v Speaker 4>for the gold Rush. Sitting in this little cafe and

1:06:55.280 --> 1:06:59.680
<v Speaker 4>talking to the waitress and it's somehow, I mean, it

1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:01.840
<v Speaker 4>became a parent to her that, you know, we were

1:07:01.880 --> 1:07:05.200
<v Speaker 4>the family that this happened to. And she told us,

1:07:05.320 --> 1:07:08.080
<v Speaker 4>you know, my parents lived less than a mile from

1:07:08.120 --> 1:07:11.480
<v Speaker 4>where that happened to the boys. And she said, I

1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:13.959
<v Speaker 4>can't even tell you the number of times I've sent

1:07:14.040 --> 1:07:16.240
<v Speaker 4>my eight and ten year old girls down that road

1:07:16.280 --> 1:07:18.640
<v Speaker 4>on their bicycles by themselves, just to go for a

1:07:18.680 --> 1:07:25.920
<v Speaker 4>bike ride. Yeah, she said, now I can't do that anymore. Well,

1:07:25.920 --> 1:07:30.400
<v Speaker 4>I mean the County trapper, in conjunction with the County

1:07:30.400 --> 1:07:33.920
<v Speaker 4>Sheriff's apartment, will wound up killing two more full grown

1:07:34.000 --> 1:07:39.640
<v Speaker 4>toms within the city limits within two to three weeks

1:07:39.720 --> 1:07:42.360
<v Speaker 4>after the attack on the boys, and both of them

1:07:42.400 --> 1:07:45.720
<v Speaker 4>were within one hundred yards of an elementary school in

1:07:45.840 --> 1:07:49.880
<v Speaker 4>broad daylight on a paved hiking trail. We're just off

1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:53.640
<v Speaker 4>of a paved hiking trail, and you know, the level

1:07:53.720 --> 1:07:56.960
<v Speaker 4>of awareness was so high in the entire area at

1:07:56.960 --> 1:07:58.680
<v Speaker 4>that point. I mean, they went back and forth with

1:07:58.720 --> 1:08:00.560
<v Speaker 4>the state, you know, what do we do? What do

1:08:00.640 --> 1:08:05.080
<v Speaker 4>we do? And the Lions had both treed and sort

1:08:05.080 --> 1:08:10.439
<v Speaker 4>of different circumstances on taking each one, but ultimately they

1:08:10.560 --> 1:08:14.640
<v Speaker 4>euthanized them. You know, the county sheriff just ultimately made

1:08:14.680 --> 1:08:17.160
<v Speaker 4>the call and said, I have to regard these things

1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:21.719
<v Speaker 4>as as a safety, you know, public safety issue.

1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Has there been any like, was that cat territorial? Was

1:08:28.760 --> 1:08:33.920
<v Speaker 3>it famished? You know, was it hungary? Any sort of

1:08:35.000 --> 1:08:37.439
<v Speaker 3>theories done on that.

1:08:38.240 --> 1:08:40.120
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean people have kind of like thrown it.

1:08:40.160 --> 1:08:45.880
<v Speaker 4>But again, because of the just extraordinary anomaly of this,

1:08:46.000 --> 1:08:49.400
<v Speaker 4>I mean, there's really no standard of comparison for this

1:08:49.439 --> 1:08:54.000
<v Speaker 4>particular incident. The cat was healthy. It did not have rabies.

1:08:54.040 --> 1:08:56.599
<v Speaker 4>They established that why it initially had to go through

1:08:56.640 --> 1:09:03.640
<v Speaker 4>like preliminary rabies you know, medications, but they determined ultimately

1:09:03.680 --> 1:09:08.519
<v Speaker 4>that it did not have rabies. They I believe they

1:09:08.560 --> 1:09:13.280
<v Speaker 4>said its stomach was empty. But other people have you know,

1:09:13.280 --> 1:09:17.720
<v Speaker 4>who understand lying behavior, wildlife biologists and whatnot, have also said, well,

1:09:17.720 --> 1:09:22.360
<v Speaker 4>it wasn't really acting predatory per se, more like territorial,

1:09:22.800 --> 1:09:27.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, or maybe because it was a juvenile cat,

1:09:27.840 --> 1:09:32.080
<v Speaker 4>it really didn't know what it was doing. It was

1:09:32.200 --> 1:09:35.599
<v Speaker 4>just a young, aggressive male and.

1:09:35.439 --> 1:09:38.360
<v Speaker 5>He knows he's not wanted in all these other places,

1:09:38.640 --> 1:09:42.400
<v Speaker 5>right because of adult males. Yeah, well, they had had

1:09:42.720 --> 1:09:45.759
<v Speaker 5>predation on sheep and goats and right in that same

1:09:46.439 --> 1:09:50.799
<v Speaker 5>you know, general area, within the prior couple of weeks.

1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:53.360
<v Speaker 5>So there's also speculation of this was the same cat

1:09:53.439 --> 1:09:58.280
<v Speaker 5>doing that. Although they are seeing so many lions, and

1:09:58.320 --> 1:10:01.080
<v Speaker 5>they're seeing lions that are you know, even like as

1:10:01.080 --> 1:10:03.639
<v Speaker 5>many as four at one time, which is also really

1:10:03.880 --> 1:10:07.960
<v Speaker 5>bizarre and anomalous. Usually, I mean, if you see two,

1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:10.320
<v Speaker 5>it's usually a mom and a kitten, or if you

1:10:10.360 --> 1:10:15.000
<v Speaker 5>see three, it's a mom and twins. But to see

1:10:15.120 --> 1:10:18.840
<v Speaker 5>four together is also sort of unprecedented a little bit.

1:10:19.640 --> 1:10:21.479
<v Speaker 5>And a lot of this stuff is documented on like

1:10:21.520 --> 1:10:25.599
<v Speaker 5>phones and ring cameras and you know, trail cameras. And

1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:32.280
<v Speaker 5>I couldn't remember the name of the college, so I

1:10:32.280 --> 1:10:35.439
<v Speaker 5>had to look it up. But Pepperdine. They're in the

1:10:35.479 --> 1:10:38.599
<v Speaker 5>Santa Monica Mountains. Yeah, was that last year or two

1:10:38.680 --> 1:10:41.599
<v Speaker 5>years ago that they were shutting down the campus because

1:10:41.600 --> 1:10:44.040
<v Speaker 5>of mountain lion activity? Yeah, on camp And this is

1:10:44.040 --> 1:10:45.560
<v Speaker 5>a fancy pants school.

1:10:45.400 --> 1:10:49.200
<v Speaker 4>Oh big time. Yeah, that's like West Coast Ivy League level.

1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:52.599
<v Speaker 4>Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean I guess that's

1:10:52.640 --> 1:10:54.519
<v Speaker 4>the other thing I should kind of note here. I mean,

1:10:54.960 --> 1:10:57.679
<v Speaker 4>this happened in the foothills, and you know that that

1:10:57.920 --> 1:11:00.680
<v Speaker 4>you know, gold Rush Foothills region is a real hotspot,

1:11:01.520 --> 1:11:05.200
<v Speaker 4>but honestly, it's all over the state that the stuff

1:11:05.280 --> 1:11:09.519
<v Speaker 4>is happening, like just increased lion presence in you know,

1:11:10.040 --> 1:11:14.960
<v Speaker 4>drastically increased depredation, problems with livestock or pets, and then

1:11:15.600 --> 1:11:18.240
<v Speaker 4>you know, since twenty twenty, a real increase in attacks

1:11:18.280 --> 1:11:21.439
<v Speaker 4>on humans. Almost all of them have been kids under

1:11:21.439 --> 1:11:24.360
<v Speaker 4>the age of like eight. And the reason none of

1:11:24.400 --> 1:11:27.240
<v Speaker 4>them were fatal is because you know, it was typically

1:11:27.280 --> 1:11:30.599
<v Speaker 4>like on the periphery of a like a park setting

1:11:30.720 --> 1:11:33.160
<v Speaker 4>or something where there were a bunch of adults around,

1:11:33.160 --> 1:11:37.280
<v Speaker 4>who could you know, present enough of a you know,

1:11:38.560 --> 1:11:40.840
<v Speaker 4>enough of the presence. Yeah, just a presence, you know.

1:11:40.960 --> 1:11:43.599
<v Speaker 4>And and the cats ultimately didn't kill any of these kids.

1:11:45.320 --> 1:11:47.599
<v Speaker 4>So that's another reason why this one is so strange.

1:11:47.640 --> 1:11:51.400
<v Speaker 4>You know, it's most of the attacks are on juveniles,

1:11:51.439 --> 1:11:53.439
<v Speaker 4>not on a pair of adult sized males.

1:11:54.280 --> 1:11:58.439
<v Speaker 1>Would it take a it would take an act of

1:11:58.520 --> 1:12:02.120
<v Speaker 1>God for California to reinstate lion hunting right.

1:12:02.160 --> 1:12:05.559
<v Speaker 4>Well, they can't because because it was passed on a

1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:09.360
<v Speaker 4>popular ballot measure, the only way to undo that is

1:12:09.400 --> 1:12:14.160
<v Speaker 4>through a secondary popular ballot measure. So what the state

1:12:14.320 --> 1:12:16.519
<v Speaker 4>can do, and whether it'll be willing to or not,

1:12:16.760 --> 1:12:19.520
<v Speaker 4>is I mean, the first thing that they could do immediately,

1:12:20.000 --> 1:12:23.519
<v Speaker 4>just by internal policy is returned to the original provision

1:12:23.600 --> 1:12:28.120
<v Speaker 4>for issuing lethal depredation permits. They can do that. There

1:12:28.240 --> 1:12:31.599
<v Speaker 4>might also especially after that study that Bart George did

1:12:31.760 --> 1:12:36.360
<v Speaker 4>in Washington, the Holland hazing study to determine the effectiveness.

1:12:36.640 --> 1:12:38.719
<v Speaker 1>No, he's publishing on that soon, I know, and I've.

1:12:38.600 --> 1:12:42.320
<v Speaker 4>Been in communication with him also been in communication with

1:12:42.520 --> 1:12:45.680
<v Speaker 4>the guy who used to be the lead predator biologist

1:12:45.720 --> 1:12:48.920
<v Speaker 4>for California for seven years. He now works for Wyoming.

1:12:49.760 --> 1:12:54.440
<v Speaker 4>His name's Justin Dellinger, and he's like legit wildlife biologists

1:12:54.439 --> 1:13:01.000
<v Speaker 4>PhD North America, totally like very much and adherent to

1:13:01.040 --> 1:13:03.479
<v Speaker 4>the North American model in terms of his own, you know,

1:13:03.600 --> 1:13:07.160
<v Speaker 4>personal philosophy for how you go about doing this stuff.

1:13:07.920 --> 1:13:10.200
<v Speaker 4>But he also grew up in western North Carolina in

1:13:10.200 --> 1:13:13.400
<v Speaker 4>a hound hunting family, and so he was hired by

1:13:13.400 --> 1:13:17.760
<v Speaker 4>the state in twenty twelve or so, I believe, and

1:13:17.800 --> 1:13:20.040
<v Speaker 4>for what he did for seven years was go all

1:13:20.080 --> 1:13:23.839
<v Speaker 4>around the state, almost every county in California, tree lions

1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:26.080
<v Speaker 4>in Colera. I'm trying to put a data set together.

1:13:27.040 --> 1:13:30.000
<v Speaker 4>So he told me on the phone that he has

1:13:30.080 --> 1:13:33.000
<v Speaker 4>since been sort of pressure. He was pressured to leave

1:13:33.040 --> 1:13:37.000
<v Speaker 4>his position because his, you know, his management philosophy was

1:13:37.040 --> 1:13:41.080
<v Speaker 4>so at odds with what the President administration's you know,

1:13:41.200 --> 1:13:46.760
<v Speaker 4>department is really you know, wanting to the direction that

1:13:46.760 --> 1:13:49.599
<v Speaker 4>they would like to go or are going. So at

1:13:49.600 --> 1:13:52.680
<v Speaker 4>any rate, I talked to Dellinger and he told me

1:13:52.720 --> 1:13:55.880
<v Speaker 4>that he tried to design a very similar study to

1:13:55.880 --> 1:14:01.520
<v Speaker 4>what Bart George did in Washington, you know, just to mathematically, quantitatively,

1:14:01.760 --> 1:14:06.040
<v Speaker 4>you know, scientifically, demonstrate the effectiveness of kind of preliminary

1:14:06.120 --> 1:14:11.559
<v Speaker 4>hound hazing on behavioral conditioning for lines to keep them

1:14:11.600 --> 1:14:14.439
<v Speaker 4>away from you just make them more evasive, the evasive

1:14:14.479 --> 1:14:16.800
<v Speaker 4>as they used to be when you know there was

1:14:16.880 --> 1:14:19.840
<v Speaker 4>consistent hound pressure put on them. So, I mean, these

1:14:19.840 --> 1:14:23.720
<v Speaker 4>guys who run hounds and understand you know, the psychology

1:14:23.720 --> 1:14:27.200
<v Speaker 4>if you will of that, you know, apex predatory, they

1:14:27.240 --> 1:14:29.680
<v Speaker 4>already know that, Like this is what works. It's not

1:14:29.800 --> 1:14:33.160
<v Speaker 4>necessarily you know, listing them as a game animal and

1:14:33.400 --> 1:14:36.200
<v Speaker 4>killing a sustainable number every year. What really works is

1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:39.960
<v Speaker 4>when we get to like pursuit train our dogs on

1:14:40.040 --> 1:14:43.080
<v Speaker 4>these things and tree and freeum. So at any rate,

1:14:45.240 --> 1:14:48.519
<v Speaker 4>justin Dellinger put together he told me a very similar

1:14:48.560 --> 1:14:51.160
<v Speaker 4>study and was about to get it green lighted and

1:14:51.200 --> 1:14:53.559
<v Speaker 4>funded in the Mountain Lion Foundation, which is you know,

1:14:53.600 --> 1:14:56.360
<v Speaker 4>primary NGO down there that's responsible for a lot of

1:14:56.360 --> 1:14:59.439
<v Speaker 4>the ballot measure and whatnot. In first place, they caught

1:14:59.439 --> 1:15:01.040
<v Speaker 4>wind of it and they were able to put enough

1:15:01.040 --> 1:15:04.000
<v Speaker 4>pressure on the State Department of Fishing Wildlife to have

1:15:04.080 --> 1:15:08.519
<v Speaker 4>them pull the plug on his study. So long, I

1:15:08.520 --> 1:15:10.640
<v Speaker 4>mean a big roundabout way of saying. They are like

1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:14.280
<v Speaker 4>myriad complexities to this in terms of like how do

1:15:14.400 --> 1:15:17.439
<v Speaker 4>we get some meaningful management protocols back in place in

1:15:17.479 --> 1:15:18.080
<v Speaker 4>that region.

1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:20.280
<v Speaker 1>I want to explain to folks real quick. When we're

1:15:20.280 --> 1:15:22.800
<v Speaker 1>talking about work Bark George was doing with.

1:15:23.000 --> 1:15:25.840
<v Speaker 4>Cattspell tribe, yes, north of Spokane.

1:15:25.960 --> 1:15:29.200
<v Speaker 1>So he was working on this project where they have

1:15:31.360 --> 1:15:35.360
<v Speaker 1>lions that are on the sort of suburban rural interfaith

1:15:37.120 --> 1:15:40.080
<v Speaker 1>and they have collars on them so they can tell

1:15:40.080 --> 1:15:43.160
<v Speaker 1>where the lion is at any given time, and they'll

1:15:43.200 --> 1:15:47.000
<v Speaker 1>go and play audio of human voices.

1:15:48.640 --> 1:15:50.200
<v Speaker 4>Much of it was your voice, I believe. Yeah.

1:15:50.200 --> 1:15:51.760
<v Speaker 1>They used yeah for a long time. I don't know

1:15:51.800 --> 1:15:53.720
<v Speaker 1>if he still does. They use the Mediator podcast. They

1:15:53.720 --> 1:15:58.519
<v Speaker 1>play the podcast out loud, and then they run the

1:15:58.520 --> 1:16:03.840
<v Speaker 1>lion with dogs and give it a bad experience to

1:16:03.840 --> 1:16:06.559
<v Speaker 1>get intrigued, right, and trying to see if you to

1:16:06.640 --> 1:16:11.280
<v Speaker 1>what degree, what degree to being chased and I don't

1:16:11.280 --> 1:16:13.320
<v Speaker 1>know if they paintballed them or something like that or

1:16:13.360 --> 1:16:16.200
<v Speaker 1>whatever they would do to them. If you could get

1:16:16.479 --> 1:16:21.000
<v Speaker 1>if you could monitor an individual lion's behavior and see

1:16:21.000 --> 1:16:25.120
<v Speaker 1>if it getting bad experiences when exposed to human voices,

1:16:25.280 --> 1:16:29.439
<v Speaker 1>would make it less wanting to be around human voices

1:16:29.479 --> 1:16:31.320
<v Speaker 1>and then watch how it would behave in the presence

1:16:31.360 --> 1:16:32.080
<v Speaker 1>of human voices.

1:16:32.200 --> 1:16:33.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, once they have, they're.

1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Public they're publishing their research about is it possible. Basically

1:16:37.040 --> 1:16:40.920
<v Speaker 1>they're trying they were trying to set out to validate

1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:47.360
<v Speaker 1>or refute the assumption that negative experiences will condition lions

1:16:47.400 --> 1:16:49.800
<v Speaker 1>to stay away from yards.

1:16:49.400 --> 1:16:53.679
<v Speaker 4>And people, right, so like, And they repeated the same

1:16:54.000 --> 1:16:59.519
<v Speaker 4>process multiple times with this established set of lions that

1:16:59.600 --> 1:17:03.200
<v Speaker 4>they had collared, and what they basically were able to

1:17:03.280 --> 1:17:09.600
<v Speaker 4>do was track at what point, at what range the

1:17:09.680 --> 1:17:12.280
<v Speaker 4>lion would decide it just wanted to get out of

1:17:12.360 --> 1:17:15.840
<v Speaker 4>dodge and not encounter people. And like initially, like in

1:17:16.160 --> 1:17:18.920
<v Speaker 4>the like say, the first encounter, these guys were able

1:17:18.960 --> 1:17:22.000
<v Speaker 4>to get within I mean feet literally maybe.

1:17:22.080 --> 1:17:24.240
<v Speaker 1>Him saying, get fifteen feet totally.

1:17:24.200 --> 1:17:26.160
<v Speaker 4>Totally, and they're just you know, and they're bo you

1:17:26.160 --> 1:17:28.080
<v Speaker 4>can tell they're both just like, I'm not going any farther,

1:17:28.120 --> 1:17:30.400
<v Speaker 4>but that thing's right in there. So then they tree

1:17:30.479 --> 1:17:33.080
<v Speaker 4>that lion. They then call in the houndsman, he trees

1:17:33.120 --> 1:17:35.080
<v Speaker 4>the lion. Well, they go out again. A couple of

1:17:35.080 --> 1:17:37.760
<v Speaker 4>weeks later, pinpoint the same lion through the you know,

1:17:37.840 --> 1:17:42.080
<v Speaker 4>telemetry and do the exact same exercise again. They approach

1:17:42.160 --> 1:17:44.960
<v Speaker 4>the lion while and this time the lion is much

1:17:45.160 --> 1:17:48.160
<v Speaker 4>less inclined to let it get twenty feet from it.

1:17:48.560 --> 1:17:50.880
<v Speaker 4>So they do this exercise a few different times, and

1:17:50.880 --> 1:17:52.800
<v Speaker 4>by the end of it, the lions are like one

1:17:52.880 --> 1:17:55.120
<v Speaker 4>hundred yards away. They hear a human voice and they're

1:17:55.160 --> 1:17:59.639
<v Speaker 4>just like, we're out the back door. So yeah, it's

1:17:59.680 --> 1:18:02.960
<v Speaker 4>really I mean, that particular episode that you honest did

1:18:03.200 --> 1:18:06.040
<v Speaker 4>is really fascinating and I've sent it to a lot

1:18:06.080 --> 1:18:09.200
<v Speaker 4>of people just to try to, you know, get people

1:18:09.240 --> 1:18:12.519
<v Speaker 4>to understand what the missing link and the management chain

1:18:12.680 --> 1:18:13.040
<v Speaker 4>is here.

1:18:14.400 --> 1:18:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Bill. What uh what kind of service did you have

1:18:19.160 --> 1:18:22.280
<v Speaker 1>for your brother? Have you guys had a service room?

1:18:22.280 --> 1:18:26.120
<v Speaker 6>Well, yeah, celebration of a life mm hmm.

1:18:28.800 --> 1:18:29.400
<v Speaker 4>It was big.

1:18:30.040 --> 1:18:39.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a lot of people from the town a ton yeah.

1:18:37.120 --> 1:18:42.040
<v Speaker 3>Play some Metallica.

1:18:41.720 --> 1:18:42.480
<v Speaker 6>Was there.

1:18:42.680 --> 1:18:45.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I had a lot of music that Taylor liked.

1:18:45.720 --> 1:18:51.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yep. Man, I appreciate you coming out and

1:18:51.400 --> 1:18:52.000
<v Speaker 1>talking to us.

1:18:52.280 --> 1:18:52.519
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:53.719
<v Speaker 1>Is there anything you want to add?

1:18:53.800 --> 1:18:57.640
<v Speaker 6>What? Mm hmmm, I don't think so.

1:18:59.080 --> 1:19:01.320
<v Speaker 1>No, anything you want to add.

1:19:02.560 --> 1:19:03.599
<v Speaker 6>I can't think of anything.

1:19:05.320 --> 1:19:11.240
<v Speaker 1>Nothing. We didn't get to that feels important, Malcolm, what

1:19:11.240 --> 1:19:11.559
<v Speaker 1>do you.

1:19:11.520 --> 1:19:16.400
<v Speaker 4>Think, Well, I mean, I guess there are two sort

1:19:16.439 --> 1:19:20.080
<v Speaker 4>of two prongs to this really. I mean, there's the

1:19:20.120 --> 1:19:24.920
<v Speaker 4>personal family part of it. But then it's also because

1:19:24.960 --> 1:19:28.200
<v Speaker 4>we've been involved in outdoor stuff, you know, our entire

1:19:28.320 --> 1:19:33.439
<v Speaker 4>lives and have had to sort of observe the management

1:19:33.479 --> 1:19:39.160
<v Speaker 4>deficiencies that have led to you know, an array of

1:19:39.200 --> 1:19:41.960
<v Speaker 4>things in California. It's not just strictly limited to lions.

1:19:42.000 --> 1:19:43.960
<v Speaker 4>I mean, there's a lot of problems with bears down there.

1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:47.800
<v Speaker 4>They have problems with beer, with beavers. They you know,

1:19:47.840 --> 1:19:50.760
<v Speaker 4>they completely outlawed trapping again. You know, I don't know

1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:52.960
<v Speaker 4>if that was a popular ballot measure, if that was

1:19:53.000 --> 1:19:56.360
<v Speaker 4>an actual like legislative you know, endeavor or what. But

1:19:57.120 --> 1:20:02.080
<v Speaker 4>just having observed what happens when you stray from you know,

1:20:02.120 --> 1:20:06.559
<v Speaker 4>these established management protocols that were invented by geniuses one

1:20:06.600 --> 1:20:09.959
<v Speaker 4>hundred and twenty five years ago and responsible for restoring

1:20:09.960 --> 1:20:13.320
<v Speaker 4>the pronghorn antelope and bringing back you know, Canada geese

1:20:13.320 --> 1:20:16.960
<v Speaker 4>maybe a little too much, you know, preserving the last

1:20:16.960 --> 1:20:22.640
<v Speaker 4>of the American bison. I mean, and when you see

1:20:23.479 --> 1:20:31.639
<v Speaker 4>that whole that whole successful model just jettisoned and the

1:20:31.800 --> 1:20:36.400
<v Speaker 4>immediate like after effects of it culminating in something like

1:20:36.439 --> 1:20:40.120
<v Speaker 4>what happened to the boys. We all just got really

1:20:40.240 --> 1:20:44.280
<v Speaker 4>committed to the idea of attempting to you know, stop

1:20:44.360 --> 1:20:47.200
<v Speaker 4>the domino effect from going you know further. Like now

1:20:47.240 --> 1:20:50.040
<v Speaker 4>we're you know, Colorado is now staring down you know,

1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:54.240
<v Speaker 4>a very similar ballot initiative, and this happened to happen

1:20:54.280 --> 1:20:57.120
<v Speaker 4>in advance of that, and we're just hoping that you know,

1:20:57.280 --> 1:21:00.559
<v Speaker 4>like appearances like this or the writing the I'm about

1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:05.040
<v Speaker 4>to do about it, will you know, reach multiple audiences

1:21:05.320 --> 1:21:09.000
<v Speaker 4>and lay out a logical case for why it simply

1:21:09.080 --> 1:21:13.960
<v Speaker 4>does not make sense to see wildlife management to public sentiment,

1:21:14.680 --> 1:21:20.519
<v Speaker 4>and you know, hope that we don't have to that California, Oregon,

1:21:20.520 --> 1:21:23.120
<v Speaker 4>and Washington remain the only ones that we have to

1:21:23.200 --> 1:21:27.400
<v Speaker 4>actually backtrack on and undo, so that nobody else going

1:21:27.439 --> 1:21:30.439
<v Speaker 4>forward has to get even deeper into the muck of

1:21:31.880 --> 1:21:34.799
<v Speaker 4>you know, worst case scenario land.

1:21:35.080 --> 1:21:38.120
<v Speaker 1>I find that on some of these bills and some

1:21:38.160 --> 1:21:42.200
<v Speaker 1>of these bailed initiatives and other you know, congressional activities,

1:21:42.560 --> 1:21:48.960
<v Speaker 1>there's a real lack of crystal ball. Oh yeah, if

1:21:49.000 --> 1:21:52.840
<v Speaker 1>you go back to the Wild Horse and Burrow Protection Act, Right, yep,

1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:56.680
<v Speaker 1>no one at that time could have ever imagined.

1:21:56.880 --> 1:21:57.719
<v Speaker 4>No, it's true.

1:21:58.439 --> 1:22:03.080
<v Speaker 1>Right, it was like there's sort of this fading population

1:22:03.240 --> 1:22:13.120
<v Speaker 1>of wildhorses and burrows either way, and they're like, we

1:22:13.160 --> 1:22:17.439
<v Speaker 1>should do something to permanently, right protect them, having no

1:22:17.560 --> 1:22:21.000
<v Speaker 1>idea that in decades to come you'd be creating a

1:22:21.120 --> 1:22:27.160
<v Speaker 1>conservation and humane animal treatment disaster.

1:22:27.439 --> 1:22:30.840
<v Speaker 4>Totally exactly. Yeah, it's the law of unintended consequence.

1:22:31.040 --> 1:22:37.719
<v Speaker 1>So doing these doing these really radical, impossible to reverse

1:22:39.680 --> 1:22:44.560
<v Speaker 1>policy changes which sort of like codifies a certain management

1:22:44.560 --> 1:22:52.280
<v Speaker 1>strategy and perpetuity strips agencies and citizens of any ability

1:22:52.320 --> 1:22:56.600
<v Speaker 1>to have like adaptive management. When something's in the hands

1:22:56.760 --> 1:23:01.840
<v Speaker 1>of game commissions and state agencies, they're able to take

1:23:01.880 --> 1:23:05.560
<v Speaker 1>this really nuance not only year to year, but oftentimes

1:23:06.240 --> 1:23:12.560
<v Speaker 1>throughout the year, constantly evolving changing needs. Do you know

1:23:12.600 --> 1:23:16.880
<v Speaker 1>what I mean? Like lion populations get kind of alarmingly low, Well,

1:23:16.880 --> 1:23:19.720
<v Speaker 1>there's steps we can take to bring them up. We're

1:23:19.720 --> 1:23:21.519
<v Speaker 1>getting a lot of conflict, there's steps we can take

1:23:21.560 --> 1:23:23.559
<v Speaker 1>to mitigate conflict. And they're able to go in and

1:23:23.640 --> 1:23:30.599
<v Speaker 1>surgically administer something like meaning a lack of animals in

1:23:30.800 --> 1:23:34.200
<v Speaker 1>Los Angeles does not mean a lack of animals north

1:23:34.240 --> 1:23:37.360
<v Speaker 1>of Sacramento. So let's do what's necessary there, and we'll

1:23:37.360 --> 1:23:40.080
<v Speaker 1>do what's necessary here, and we'll be fluid. And all

1:23:40.080 --> 1:23:41.519
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden, you make it that it's a one

1:23:41.560 --> 1:23:47.920
<v Speaker 1>size fits all, sledgehammer approach to management, and me saying

1:23:47.920 --> 1:23:50.720
<v Speaker 1>this isn't going to change the perspective of anyone who

1:23:50.760 --> 1:23:54.240
<v Speaker 1>would like to see these these these these like writ

1:23:54.320 --> 1:24:00.519
<v Speaker 1>large edicts about wildlife management. They know what they're playing, right,

1:24:01.240 --> 1:24:04.440
<v Speaker 1>they know what they're playing. They like, they're not interested

1:24:04.520 --> 1:24:08.080
<v Speaker 1>in management. They're not interested in the concerns of rural peoples.

1:24:08.080 --> 1:24:11.840
<v Speaker 1>They're not interested in the concerns of agricultural people, right right,

1:24:12.000 --> 1:24:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Like it doesn't cost them anything to have no management.

1:24:15.600 --> 1:24:17.400
<v Speaker 4>Man, God, I mean, in a way, they're not even

1:24:17.439 --> 1:24:22.040
<v Speaker 4>interested in the concerns of other animal protectionists, you know organizations,

1:24:22.080 --> 1:24:24.800
<v Speaker 4>if they're more of a conservationists bent rather than like

1:24:24.840 --> 1:24:28.240
<v Speaker 4>an outright you know, animal rights bent. And the easy

1:24:28.280 --> 1:24:32.000
<v Speaker 4>way to demonstrate that in California is the Sierra Nevada

1:24:32.080 --> 1:24:38.040
<v Speaker 4>bighorned cheap population is crashing down in its southern range,

1:24:38.320 --> 1:24:42.840
<v Speaker 4>and the biologists who work with that population down there

1:24:42.880 --> 1:24:48.400
<v Speaker 4>are like legit biologists and they're like lieon depredation on

1:24:48.439 --> 1:24:52.880
<v Speaker 4>these wild sheep is the number one contributor to the

1:24:52.920 --> 1:24:55.880
<v Speaker 4>crash that's had and that's an endangered species listed animal.

1:24:56.680 --> 1:25:01.200
<v Speaker 5>So well, when the when I was down in the

1:25:01.200 --> 1:25:04.160
<v Speaker 5>Santa Monica Mountains probably five years ago, I got to

1:25:04.280 --> 1:25:09.960
<v Speaker 5>run around with a state mountain lion biologist and attempt

1:25:10.080 --> 1:25:13.479
<v Speaker 5>live trap mounta lions down there. Super fun, super cool.

1:25:13.560 --> 1:25:17.320
<v Speaker 5>This guy's very invested in mount lions and really that

1:25:17.400 --> 1:25:20.360
<v Speaker 5>specific population. Some of the stuff that we mentioned, but

1:25:21.040 --> 1:25:26.559
<v Speaker 5>the statewide ban on foothold traps in California, right, we

1:25:26.560 --> 1:25:32.960
<v Speaker 5>were packing around giant cage traps, live animal cage traps

1:25:32.960 --> 1:25:35.680
<v Speaker 5>for something the size of a mountain lion. So this

1:25:35.760 --> 1:25:39.240
<v Speaker 5>guy could do research to benefit mount lions.

1:25:39.280 --> 1:25:41.759
<v Speaker 1>They didn't put a research component into that band. They didn't.

1:25:42.160 --> 1:25:42.639
<v Speaker 1>They didn't.

1:25:42.640 --> 1:25:44.160
<v Speaker 5>We talked a lot about that really.

1:25:44.280 --> 1:25:48.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so there is a research component in one point

1:25:48.280 --> 1:25:52.439
<v Speaker 4>seventeen relative to hound pursuit, which is one thing that

1:25:52.479 --> 1:25:53.559
<v Speaker 4>I really hope and.

1:25:53.520 --> 1:25:57.679
<v Speaker 5>That's what this guy was like, he's never hunted mount lions, Yeah,

1:25:57.720 --> 1:26:03.040
<v Speaker 5>but because he gets to work with houndsman to trap

1:26:03.080 --> 1:26:08.040
<v Speaker 5>mounta lions, particularly like the nuisance ones, so they'll go

1:26:08.120 --> 1:26:11.880
<v Speaker 5>in dartham, collar him, relocate him sometimes stuff like that.

1:26:12.040 --> 1:26:14.280
<v Speaker 5>He was like, yeah, I don't care if he kills

1:26:14.280 --> 1:26:19.640
<v Speaker 5>some mountain lions. You know, these guys seem great, you know, yeah, yeah,

1:26:19.680 --> 1:26:22.439
<v Speaker 5>And then that is something that we should should ask,

1:26:22.560 --> 1:26:26.040
<v Speaker 5>like why, what are your thoughts on on mountain lions?

1:26:26.479 --> 1:26:30.080
<v Speaker 5>Do you feel like you'd add him to the hunt

1:26:30.120 --> 1:26:32.679
<v Speaker 5>list if you had had the chance. Do you think

1:26:32.760 --> 1:26:34.360
<v Speaker 5>they should all go away?

1:26:34.479 --> 1:26:35.760
<v Speaker 1>Where'd youammed up?

1:26:37.560 --> 1:26:39.720
<v Speaker 6>I don't think they should all go away, but I

1:26:39.800 --> 1:26:43.280
<v Speaker 6>think you should be able to hunt him or at

1:26:43.320 --> 1:26:47.599
<v Speaker 6>least do something to bring the population down, I guess,

1:26:48.160 --> 1:26:50.479
<v Speaker 6>But I don't think they should fully go away.

1:26:51.439 --> 1:26:51.880
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm.

1:26:52.360 --> 1:26:53.639
<v Speaker 6>That's how I think about it.

1:26:53.960 --> 1:26:57.280
<v Speaker 1>That's a mature that seems pretty level headed for in

1:26:57.320 --> 1:27:00.280
<v Speaker 1>your situation. That's a mature perspective, I'd say, yeah.

1:27:00.560 --> 1:27:03.479
<v Speaker 5>But if you bring up Colorado like we talked about, right, Like,

1:27:05.040 --> 1:27:08.960
<v Speaker 5>guy gets swatted while he's sitting in his hot guy

1:27:09.120 --> 1:27:12.360
<v Speaker 5>gets attacked on his front porch, kid gets attacked in

1:27:12.360 --> 1:27:15.600
<v Speaker 5>the backyard, lots and lots of dogs, all within the

1:27:15.680 --> 1:27:19.160
<v Speaker 5>last four years, right and still right now, there's a

1:27:19.200 --> 1:27:23.040
<v Speaker 5>citizens initiative to ban lion hunting completely.

1:27:23.160 --> 1:27:23.400
<v Speaker 4>Yep.

1:27:25.680 --> 1:27:29.479
<v Speaker 5>Right, So it's like this type of stuff, this like

1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:32.960
<v Speaker 5>horrible tragedy that you and your family have had to

1:27:33.000 --> 1:27:38.760
<v Speaker 5>go through, Like it doesn't move the needle apparently.

1:27:38.400 --> 1:27:41.519
<v Speaker 4>Right, Well, I think it could, but it's going to

1:27:41.600 --> 1:27:43.320
<v Speaker 4>do that with the sort of like middle of the

1:27:43.400 --> 1:27:48.920
<v Speaker 4>road fence sitters who maybe are not don't have particularly

1:27:48.960 --> 1:27:52.080
<v Speaker 4>strong feelings about it one way or another, but could

1:27:52.120 --> 1:27:56.840
<v Speaker 4>be pretty easily swayed by an emotional appeal to them

1:27:57.520 --> 1:27:59.960
<v Speaker 4>and the animal you know, animal rights and goos are

1:28:00.080 --> 1:28:03.680
<v Speaker 4>really adept at producing what I would refer to as

1:28:03.680 --> 1:28:07.840
<v Speaker 4>straight up propaganda to appeal to you know, and otherwise

1:28:07.960 --> 1:28:13.679
<v Speaker 4>generally just not particularly well informed voting, you know, public.

1:28:14.160 --> 1:28:16.360
<v Speaker 4>And that's where I think we have an opportunity here

1:28:16.400 --> 1:28:19.200
<v Speaker 4>and what I'm attempting to do by again writing about

1:28:19.200 --> 1:28:21.479
<v Speaker 4>it for something like The New York Times magazine, because

1:28:21.479 --> 1:28:25.600
<v Speaker 4>that's going to reach a readership that otherwise really wouldn't

1:28:25.640 --> 1:28:29.640
<v Speaker 4>get a well laid out, you know, clarification on what

1:28:29.800 --> 1:28:32.479
<v Speaker 4>the actual stakes are if you go down this.

1:28:32.439 --> 1:28:35.439
<v Speaker 5>World may not be layered in the mailbox with Bugle

1:28:35.520 --> 1:28:37.559
<v Speaker 5>and bu exactly exactly.

1:28:37.640 --> 1:28:39.680
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I mean, let's not calves. I mean to

1:28:40.120 --> 1:28:43.000
<v Speaker 4>a degree. I mean this is, you know, sort of

1:28:43.160 --> 1:28:45.160
<v Speaker 4>preaching to the converted right, and I'm glad we have

1:28:45.240 --> 1:28:47.439
<v Speaker 4>the opportunity to do that because you probably knew as

1:28:47.439 --> 1:28:49.800
<v Speaker 4>many people in the Zoula back in the day that

1:28:49.920 --> 1:28:52.360
<v Speaker 4>I did. Who you know, they go there and they

1:28:52.520 --> 1:28:55.120
<v Speaker 4>you know, enroll in the environmental studies program or whatever,

1:28:55.200 --> 1:28:57.880
<v Speaker 4>and before you know it, they're interested in ungulate hunting.

1:28:57.920 --> 1:29:00.360
<v Speaker 4>But they still just can't wrap their heads around you know,

1:29:00.439 --> 1:29:02.840
<v Speaker 4>predator hunting while you know, lion hunting, bear hunting. And

1:29:02.840 --> 1:29:06.520
<v Speaker 4>I remember having this argument with people in the late nineties,

1:29:06.600 --> 1:29:10.880
<v Speaker 4>you know, after having watched what happened around northern California

1:29:10.920 --> 1:29:14.000
<v Speaker 4>even in that era with the increased lion presence once

1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:20.599
<v Speaker 4>they prohibited hound pursuit from houndsman. So this has been

1:29:20.640 --> 1:29:22.720
<v Speaker 4>a long time coming. It's been a very long road.

1:29:22.760 --> 1:29:27.160
<v Speaker 4>It just happened to strangely land in this family.

1:29:27.760 --> 1:29:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, how long is the article you're working on gonna be?

1:29:31.280 --> 1:29:34.040
<v Speaker 4>I pitched it as five to seven thousand words and

1:29:34.160 --> 1:29:37.080
<v Speaker 4>they came back at four thousand words. But I have

1:29:37.200 --> 1:29:39.479
<v Speaker 4>a feeling that that might wind up being kind of

1:29:39.479 --> 1:29:42.160
<v Speaker 4>elastic once I get into it, because there are so

1:29:42.400 --> 1:29:45.040
<v Speaker 4>many different layers of complexity to this.

1:29:45.320 --> 1:29:48.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's a lot of complexity. Yeah, that's good chunk.

1:29:48.960 --> 1:29:49.920
<v Speaker 1>That's good chunk of writing.

1:29:50.000 --> 1:29:50.479
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmmm.

1:29:51.920 --> 1:29:55.519
<v Speaker 1>And people, uh, people will find it the New York

1:29:55.560 --> 1:29:57.280
<v Speaker 1>Times magazine.

1:29:56.920 --> 1:30:01.160
<v Speaker 4>Right, Yeah, it's the magazine that's put it. It's somewhat independent,

1:30:01.160 --> 1:30:04.240
<v Speaker 4>as I understand it, from the actual print newspaper, but

1:30:04.360 --> 1:30:07.439
<v Speaker 4>you know it's a yeah, it's on a par with

1:30:07.720 --> 1:30:10.080
<v Speaker 4>you know, Harper's or The Atlantic or The New York

1:30:10.240 --> 1:30:13.320
<v Speaker 4>or whatever. It's kind of that type of you know,

1:30:13.600 --> 1:30:15.160
<v Speaker 4>high toned think piece sort of.

1:30:15.439 --> 1:30:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So well, the Brooks family, thank you, man. I

1:30:20.760 --> 1:30:23.960
<v Speaker 1>appreciate you coming on to talk about this.

1:30:25.400 --> 1:30:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having us.

1:30:27.439 --> 1:30:30.360
<v Speaker 1>A tragedy and I think an important issue for people

1:30:30.400 --> 1:30:34.680
<v Speaker 1>who are interested in and wildlife and natural resources in

1:30:34.720 --> 1:30:40.640
<v Speaker 1>America and how those questions and policies we make have

1:30:40.760 --> 1:30:43.920
<v Speaker 1>ways of coming around and impact and people's lives and

1:30:44.080 --> 1:30:46.720
<v Speaker 1>and and thinking through decisions we make in a way

1:30:46.760 --> 1:30:50.560
<v Speaker 1>that gives us the ability to stay fluid and adaptive.

1:30:50.600 --> 1:30:53.519
<v Speaker 1>So I appreciate you coming on, man. Yeah, thanks, thank you.

1:30:53.520 --> 1:30:55.080
<v Speaker 1>What Yeah, thank you appreciate it.

1:30:55.000 --> 1:30:59.439
<v Speaker 4>Buddy, Thank you, Steve. Really yeah, I really appreciate what

1:30:59.479 --> 1:31:02.280
<v Speaker 4>you're doing, appreciate the opportunity, and I knew that this

1:31:02.320 --> 1:31:05.560
<v Speaker 4>would be a terrific way for Wyatt to tell his

1:31:05.680 --> 1:31:08.599
<v Speaker 4>story to a community that cares about him.

1:31:08.640 --> 1:31:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Oh, definitely, thank you man. Yep h