1
00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,360
Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

2
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,599
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast, you can't

3
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,080
Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you

4
00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,

5
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,920
Speaker 1: or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to

6
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at

7
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,199
Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T l

8
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:41,879
Speaker 1: I t E dot com. Join today by members of

9
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:49,160
Speaker 1: the Brooks clan, Wyatt Aaron and the novelist Malcolm Brooks.

10
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,880
Speaker 1: And we'll get to this in a bit, but what

11
00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 1: brought us here together is that Aaron's son, Wyatt's brought Malcolm.

12
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:07,959
Speaker 1: Your nephew, yep Tailing Brooks died in a mountain lion

13
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:13,760
Speaker 1: attack in California in March, and we're gonna discuss the

14
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,040
Speaker 1: circumstances around that, but first we're gonna talk a bit

15
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: about your guys family, who's a big hunting and fishing family.

16
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:29,679
Speaker 1: And after that incident, after that accident or attack, our

17
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: good friend Dave Smith from Dave Smith Decoys was telling

18
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,480
Speaker 1: me of his great affection for your guys family, and

19
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,080
Speaker 1: I had I didn't initially put it together when I

20
00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 1: saw the name Brooks, I didn't initially put it together

21
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,080
Speaker 1: that you guys were related to the writer Malcolm Brooks,

22
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,200
Speaker 1: who I've met and who's here today as well. Aaron,

23
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:58,000
Speaker 1: you you knew Dave through competitive turkey calling.

24
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 2: Knew Dave through videoing hunts. I went up and video

25
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 2: for DSD.

26
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,880
Speaker 1: Oh you did? I don't know that you're in the

27
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,720
Speaker 1: wood business. Are you still in the wood business?

28
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 2: Firewood a little bit.

29
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,600
Speaker 1: Let's see you got a log and hat toos?

30
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,520
Speaker 3: Were you running a camera like a camera out for him?

31
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 2: Okay?

32
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:25,480
Speaker 1: For Dave?

33
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, well for colping it was actually through Ron Latshaw

34
00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 2: from Final Approach.

35
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,360
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah.

36
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 2: I got Yes, I've known Brad and Dave for twenty

37
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:44,160
Speaker 2: five years. They come down turkey hunt with us regularly

38
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:45,920
Speaker 2: in California.

39
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got it. I got it.

40
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,960
Speaker 2: Dave's been there a few years, Brad's been there a

41
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,799
Speaker 2: bunch of years, and.

42
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,160
Speaker 1: You be and you got into competitive turkey calling, you

43
00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:57,560
Speaker 1: know when it.

44
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 3: Was calls around some lessons.

45
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: Do you do any natural voice calling? Nope, don't.

46
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,040
Speaker 2: I did a podcast with DSD and I did a

47
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,600
Speaker 2: bunch of calling on there. I could probably look that up.

48
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:12,519
Speaker 4: There you go.

49
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,920
Speaker 1: So you got I'm looking at your I'm looking at

50
00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,799
Speaker 1: your stats. You got into competitive calling in nineteen ninety two,

51
00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 1: the year I graduated from high.

52
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:23,960
Speaker 3: School year I was born?

53
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 4: Is that right?

54
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,799
Speaker 1: Chester cute? But good lord?

55
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:36,839
Speaker 3: Really, yeah, I'm not that. I'm not. I'm getting old now.

56
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now you are three time California state calling champion,

57
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 1: two year Oregon state champion. So you kind of carpet

58
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 1: bagged it down in Oregon and beat him down there,

59
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 1: and then he came to Montana and carpet bag to

60
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,200
Speaker 1: Montana and beat everybody in Montana. What was harder.

61
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,080
Speaker 2: Probably the Oregon one.

62
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,040
Speaker 1: Those the best callers. Then he finished third at the

63
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,080
Speaker 1: Keystone Open in Pennsylvania. Then you're in the big leagues.

64
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 2: That was the hard one. Those are all the big guys.

65
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,400
Speaker 1: Because then you got people that have been hunting turkeys

66
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:11,720
Speaker 1: for since the beginning of time.

67
00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, all those guys in Pennsylvania are the guys that

68
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:19,120
Speaker 2: go to and win Nationals every year. So I was

69
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,679
Speaker 2: called against some pretty good guys there. It's fun.

70
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,200
Speaker 1: You still do that kind of stuff.

71
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 2: No, I just I probably like early two thousands, I

72
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,000
Speaker 2: just lost interest and stop doing it.

73
00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,479
Speaker 1: Did you lose interest in turkey hunting?

74
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 4: No?

75
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:40,359
Speaker 2: No, turkey hunt a.

76
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,200
Speaker 5: Lot in California primarily.

77
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but California stopped having calling contests too.

78
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 1: For like did they all have one outlaw?

79
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,159
Speaker 2: They didn't. I that's probably next.

80
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,839
Speaker 5: That is like when you bring up hunting and California

81
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,359
Speaker 5: right like then it's like how could he ever be

82
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,360
Speaker 5: a hunter and live there? And it's like, oddly enough,

83
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,920
Speaker 5: every time I go to California there's a lot of

84
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 5: hunting and fishing to be done. That's typically pretty good.

85
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Did your dad get you intoup hunting, fish and white?

86
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 2: Oh?

87
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:16,160
Speaker 6: Yeah?

88
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 1: How old? You know?

89
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:17,760
Speaker 6: Eighteen?

90
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,799
Speaker 1: You know how I get started out.

91
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,799
Speaker 6: Just from going out with my dad since I was little.

92
00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:25,200
Speaker 1: What's your specialty? Man?

93
00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 6: Mm hmm.

94
00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:29,840
Speaker 3: Waterfowl?

95
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,600
Speaker 6: Probably deer hunting, because I don't know, I'm super patient

96
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 6: and I'm always out there the longest.

97
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,880
Speaker 1: You don't mind is coming right out and saying that.

98
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,080
Speaker 3: And he kills giant bucks, black tails are yeah they'la Yeah.

99
00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:49,480
Speaker 6: Pretty cool.

100
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,360
Speaker 1: So you weren't a big bow hunter, Aaron? No, how'd

101
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 1: he get in? How'd you get him into it? Or

102
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,200
Speaker 1: how'd he get into it? On his own.

103
00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, mostly just from watching YouTube stuff like that, seeing

104
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:01,839
Speaker 6: it on TV.

105
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you decided to get yourself a bow.

106
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,919
Speaker 6: Yeah, well my dad's friend gave me his kids because

107
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 6: his kid grew out of it.

108
00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,159
Speaker 1: Okay, then what happened?

109
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,400
Speaker 6: I just started shooting it and then started hunting deer

110
00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,279
Speaker 6: with it, and then I ended up getting my first

111
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 6: one the bow.

112
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 3: Do you guys do a lot of tree stand stuff

113
00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,560
Speaker 3: for the black tails in California?

114
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,520
Speaker 6: Or is it mainly ground blind?

115
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:29,239
Speaker 3: Ground blind?

116
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:29,840
Speaker 1: Yeah you do.

117
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,159
Speaker 6: I've never hunted out of a tree stand.

118
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 1: Do you guys hunt public or private? Brown?

119
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:38,160
Speaker 6: Private?

120
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:38,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

121
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:39,280
Speaker 6: Yeah?

122
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,279
Speaker 1: So you had a second hand bow? Learn how to

123
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 1: shoot it, yep, learn how to hunt deer? Your brother

124
00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:48,200
Speaker 1: like the hunt deer?

125
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:58,279
Speaker 6: Mm hmm it feels easy yeah, because he wasn't very patient,

126
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,160
Speaker 6: so he just liked going out and shooting one super fast.

127
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,120
Speaker 1: So tell me about tell me about patience, man, Like,

128
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 1: what is that when you say it? What do you mean?

129
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 1: I mean? I understand what patience means. But you mean

130
00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 1: you were willing to sit all day?

131
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, all day, every morning, every evening.

132
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:23,600
Speaker 1: You just put in the time. Yeah. Yeah, do you

133
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 1: got did you guys grow up reading your uncle's books

134
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 1: and stuff. You ever look at his buttons?

135
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've read part.

136
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 1: Part of one.

137
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,040
Speaker 4: My own kids haven't read my books.

138
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,200
Speaker 6: You're not a very big reader.

139
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,760
Speaker 1: So explain all. Explain all your guys relationship. How are

140
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 1: you guys tied in with each other?

141
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 4: Well, Aaron's my younger brother and I, you know, we

142
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,960
Speaker 4: grew up in the same region where these guys still live,

143
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,760
Speaker 4: Eldorado County. It's you know, gold Rush country, foothills country,

144
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 4: you know, it's you know, within an hour of Sacramento,

145
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 4: but every rural the southern part of the county where

146
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,360
Speaker 4: we grew up. So I was deer hunting and bird

147
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 4: hunting first before Aaron was legally old enough too. God,

148
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,920
Speaker 4: and then he he just he he had already been

149
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,520
Speaker 4: like kind of a maniacal bass fisherman, even as a

150
00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,560
Speaker 4: real little shaver, so he just he just you know,

151
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 4: segued right into hunting too as soon as he was

152
00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,680
Speaker 4: legally able to do it. And he and I hunted

153
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,800
Speaker 4: together for years down there. Then I moved to Missoula

154
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 4: in ninety five and I've been there ever since.

155
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:32,440
Speaker 1: Did you move there to be a writer?

156
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 4: You will? Yeah, I mean I had lived in outside

157
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 4: of Kalispell for about a year in ninety two, I guess,

158
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,760
Speaker 4: and then wound up in Willawa County, Oregon for a

159
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,040
Speaker 4: little while and then back home again in Cali. But yeah,

160
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,640
Speaker 4: I mean I I was really just enamored by Montana history,

161
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 4: Montana culture, you know, the outdoor culture. I mean it was,

162
00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 4: you know, really interested in fly fishing when I was

163
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,680
Speaker 4: in my teens, and knew that the writing culture was

164
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,959
Speaker 4: what it was in Montana that you know, it had

165
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 4: these famous writers and I read all those books, you know,

166
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 4: mcgwaine and Harrison and ab gu three, and yeah, I

167
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 4: was just kind of steeped in it in general, and

168
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,840
Speaker 4: that's where I wanted to go and never did leave.

169
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 1: My buddies in Missoula used to call Missoula the Paris

170
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:31,720
Speaker 1: of West central Montana. Oh yeah, yeah, crag, Yeah, you

171
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,240
Speaker 1: were a maniacal bass fisher from telling you what that means.

172
00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:42,679
Speaker 2: Oh, just when I was little, like from when I

173
00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,800
Speaker 2: was like four till probably around fifteen, I just didn't

174
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 2: really do it as much.

175
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,920
Speaker 3: But do you guys steal bass fish? Yeah?

176
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeahlmet Halmmett back up when you you quit when you

177
00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,880
Speaker 1: were fifteen, But you started being a maniacal bass fisherman at.

178
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 2: Four, Yeah, three or four, he was little.

179
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

180
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 4: Yeah. We had a pond behind our house and it

181
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 4: had large mouths in it. That's just all we did

182
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,160
Speaker 4: was down there throw throw plugs.

183
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,559
Speaker 1: So do you tend to get into stuff and get

184
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 1: out of it? No, Like you got into turkey call

185
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,440
Speaker 1: and then then drifted out of it.

186
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was just the competitive calling. I just lost

187
00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:33,080
Speaker 2: interest in it. But turkey hunting was still just a

188
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 2: bunch and.

189
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 1: You guys got good turkey still, right.

190
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:36,599
Speaker 6: Yeah.

191
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,240
Speaker 1: Uh, tell people what you tell people your books? Man?

192
00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,640
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, I guess the thing I'm most

193
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,520
Speaker 4: known for as a writer at this point, you know,

194
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,160
Speaker 4: is the two novels. The first one is called Painted Horses,

195
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,680
Speaker 4: and they would probably both books would equally qualify probably

196
00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 4: as literary fiction and historical fiction. Painted Horses is set

197
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,280
Speaker 4: in the fifties in this sort of like prior Mountain,

198
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,640
Speaker 4: Big Horn River region, and it just explores the archaeology

199
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,520
Speaker 4: that they used to do in advance of like the

200
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,880
Speaker 4: hydro projects in the fifties and sixties. I mean, that's

201
00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,640
Speaker 4: a very thumbnail. There's a lot in there about like

202
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 4: you know, ice age cave art and yeah, there's it's

203
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 4: it ranges pretty widely. Second book, cloud Maker, was inspired

204
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,840
Speaker 4: by these real life Montana teenagers and the Great Depression

205
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,439
Speaker 4: who were building and flying their own airplanes powered by

206
00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:39,240
Speaker 4: Model A Forward engines. So yeah, and now, as of

207
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,000
Speaker 4: about two months ago, I guess I'm under contract with

208
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,160
Speaker 4: Simon and Schuster to do a narrative nonfiction you know,

209
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,319
Speaker 4: full length book on like history of early debute Montana.

210
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,439
Speaker 1: Oh really, Yeah that's good. Yeah. Have you read I

211
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:54,920
Speaker 1: don't even want to say the name of the guy,

212
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 1: but have you read Pennies from Hell?

213
00:11:59,720 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 2: No?

214
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 4: This is an article I don't even know if I've

215
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 4: heard of it was.

216
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,360
Speaker 1: It was an article in Harper's a long time ago.

217
00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 4: Oh, was it was? It was? Yeah, it started a Yeah,

218
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,120
Speaker 4: the initials are ED.

219
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 1: This was the first name, yeah, Ed. Yeah, that's a

220
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:19,520
Speaker 1: good idea.

221
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I did. I'm a carpenter by trade, and

222
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,200
Speaker 4: I did a restoration for a friend on a row

223
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 4: house on Mercury Street over there, summer before all the

224
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 4: COVID stuff started, and I just like deep dove into

225
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,160
Speaker 4: the history and there I got really super interested in it.

226
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,280
Speaker 4: And my initial initial impulse for it was to try

227
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,960
Speaker 4: to make like a dramatic television show out of that,

228
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,959
Speaker 4: like more of the Copper King sort of era. Man,

229
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 4: So I wrote, you know, when COVID hit and I

230
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 4: had a lot of downtime. I actually did write a

231
00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:01,400
Speaker 4: tentative pilot episode for that. But you're probably aware of this,

232
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,840
Speaker 4: but the publishing industry has just been so turbulent in

233
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 4: the last say, six seven years.

234
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 1: Oh they're gonna say the last six seven centuries.

235
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,920
Speaker 4: Well yeah, but you know, worse for sort of cultural

236
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,840
Speaker 4: and political reasons in the last So I realized that

237
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:24,040
Speaker 4: my odds of selling another full length novel in the

238
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,200
Speaker 4: same vein that I had written the other two were

239
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,400
Speaker 4: probably not great. But I was like, well, I've done

240
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,720
Speaker 4: all this research for this tentative TV show on mute,

241
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,480
Speaker 4: and what's really By doing the research, I realized that

242
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,400
Speaker 4: nothing had really recently been written on the early history

243
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,079
Speaker 4: of the place in like fifty sixty years, and I

244
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,760
Speaker 4: just like, wow, I mean, I should just turn this

245
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,640
Speaker 4: into a narrative nonfiction proposal and see if I can

246
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,400
Speaker 4: move that. And it took eighteen months to do it,

247
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,960
Speaker 4: but it did happen. Finally, No congratulations man, thank you.

248
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, tell me about how old was Taylorm.

249
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,200
Speaker 6: When he died twenty one, twenty one.

250
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,720
Speaker 1: He was a musician. Tell me about your brother, man,

251
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 1: or tell me about your son, whatever makes sense.

252
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he was super into music and well playing guitar,

253
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 2: and he was really good at.

254
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 6: It and bass fishing. It's like all he did. Yeah,

255
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 6: let's go f.

256
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,800
Speaker 5: That's a pretty good combo.

257
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 1: Really, So he was a bass fisherman.

258
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, big, super into it.

259
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,760
Speaker 1: Letting him god making them late for something.

260
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, anytime he could, that's what he's doing.

261
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,000
Speaker 1: And and what's up with the music?

262
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 6: Mm hmmm, I don't know. He just always liked listening

263
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:47,440
Speaker 6: to music.

264
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,440
Speaker 3: Did he ever record anything?

265
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,120
Speaker 6: Just like on his phone? Got you like, I don't know, Yeah,

266
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 6: but he wasn't big into recording.

267
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,440
Speaker 1: What was he what was What kind of music did

268
00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 1: he play? What did you listen to?

269
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 2: Mostly metal type of stuff?

270
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:04,480
Speaker 1: He was a head banger.

271
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,160
Speaker 2: Oh, all kinds of strange bands. I don't even know.

272
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 1: But he would dip back into some metallica.

273
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 6: Yeah.

274
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 4: He was like one of those like intuitively just gifted

275
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,280
Speaker 4: guitar people where you know, it's like if you take

276
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 4: like I was, you know, to take guitar lessons when

277
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,480
Speaker 4: you're a teenager and you think you're like coming along

278
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,120
Speaker 4: with it, and all of a sudden you meet some

279
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,280
Speaker 4: kid who's never had a lesson in his life, and

280
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,600
Speaker 4: you just completely blow the doors off of you know,

281
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 4: even professional musicians to agree one of them to.

282
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,920
Speaker 1: Your right wing guitar virtuoso.

283
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 3: All right, I wouldn't go that far.

284
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 1: Least that's how you introduced himself.

285
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

286
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 2: Yeah?

287
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 1: Uh? Did he did he want to be a musician? Like?

288
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 1: What was his aspiration? His long term aspiration?

289
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 2: He's only played music by himself in his room. I mean,

290
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 2: he never played with a band or played with It's

291
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 2: just all he just loved playing guitar.

292
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 1: Was he kind of a loner?

293
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 5: Yeah?

294
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 6: Kind of Yeah, I don't know.

295
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 5: You get good at bass fishing, get good at guitar.

296
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 5: That makes sense too, stay away from the ladies.

297
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,840
Speaker 1: What line of work was he going toward?

298
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 6: He didn't. He hadn't really figured it out yet. Yeah,

299
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,920
Speaker 6: but well, I mean he always talked about wanting to

300
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 6: do like bass tournaments and stuff like that.

301
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 3: But did you guys have like a did he go

302
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 3: out in a like a bass. You guys have a

303
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 3: bass boat like rigged with electronics kind of stuff and

304
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 3: like bass master classic kind of fishing.

305
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,119
Speaker 6: No, we just have an old John boat.

306
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:50,360
Speaker 3: Got you.

307
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 6: Yeah?

308
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 2: Cool?

309
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: So he thought maybe he would get into that.

310
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

311
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: Did he go to college at all?

312
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 6: No?

313
00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 1: No, are you fixing to go to college?

314
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 6: No, I'm not going to go.

315
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,160
Speaker 1: Had you thought about it at a time?

316
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well my plan was to go, Okay, but I

317
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:10,879
Speaker 6: just decided. No.

318
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 1: When did you decide?

319
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 6: No, like after my senior year, before the next year

320
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 6: school was going to start, like during that summer.

321
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, what do you think about doing instead?

322
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 6: Well, I was going to go to be a firefighter,

323
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 6: and then I ended up going a different route that

324
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 6: didn't require college, and so that's what I do. I

325
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,320
Speaker 6: did wildland firefighting good last year for a private company

326
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 6: out of Georgetown, and then my plan is to just

327
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,360
Speaker 6: get my EMT so I could work full time instead

328
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 6: of seasonal.

329
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 1: But you still want to be a firefighter?

330
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay for the most part.

331
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to introduce someone. I'm going to volunteer

332
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 1: him as a mentor because he's a Sacramento firefighter. Okay,

333
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 1: they'll tell you what's what's what I can tell you

334
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,240
Speaker 1: one thing, I know, it was a lot better to

335
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,480
Speaker 1: get in a long time ago.

336
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,359
Speaker 5: I'm thinking about something like playing with fire, Like what

337
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,120
Speaker 5: about being a welder, make a bunch of cash, great stuff,

338
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,359
Speaker 5: always have a job.

339
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,679
Speaker 6: I'm not really wanting to be a firefighter.

340
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,639
Speaker 1: If you like to hunt and fish, firefighting is the

341
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 1: way to go. Yeah, But a lot of firefighters because

342
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,119
Speaker 1: you go in and you work, you know how it goes.

343
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 1: You go and you just live there for days and

344
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,480
Speaker 1: work around the clock and then you get a little

345
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: bit of a chunk of time off. Yeah, and it's

346
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 1: it's like a predictable schedule. So you like go through

347
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,119
Speaker 1: hell for four days or whatever it is, and you

348
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 1: kick it for a couple of days.

349
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, Or you go through hell for like eight days

350
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,840
Speaker 5: and then you kick it for a lot more days.

351
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 5: Then sometimes you're like, I want twelve days in a

352
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 5: row and then I'll see you in three months.

353
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good hunting fish and suit. But

354
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 1: a lot of firefighters I know start a second business

355
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,879
Speaker 1: mm hmm because they're too ambitious. That's not how you

356
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,760
Speaker 1: want to do it. It's not how you want to

357
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 1: do it. You want to have. You want a second

358
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,640
Speaker 1: business of hunting fishing? Did you and your bro spend

359
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: a lot of time in the woods.

360
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, a decent amount.

361
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like what would you guys go and do?

362
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,879
Speaker 6: Mm hmm. Mostly we would just turkey hunt together.

363
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 1: Okay, So he liked that.

364
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was his favorite turkey hunting.

365
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys did obviously did some shed hunting.

366
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 6: Together, which he wasn't very into that because of all

367
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 6: the walking.

368
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,679
Speaker 5: I was gonna ask did he have patients for turkey hunting?

369
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,880
Speaker 5: Turkey hunting, you gotta have some patience.

370
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, but that was it only turkey hunting.

371
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: So he didn't like no walking, no waiting, not really. No.

372
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 1: Did he get some deer?

373
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:57,120
Speaker 6: Yeah he got two?

374
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, and you guys went shed hunting for dear

375
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 1: antlers or what?

376
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 6: Yeah?

377
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: Did you think of it like scouting or like you

378
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,160
Speaker 1: just wanted to find the antlers? Mmm?

379
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 6: When I would shed hunt spots I was gonna hunt.

380
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,159
Speaker 6: I'd kind of scouted out while I was looking, but

381
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 6: mostly just to find the antlers.

382
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

383
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

384
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: Uh, can I ask you a question about your area? There?

385
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,920
Speaker 1: Are you susceptible to poison oak? M?

386
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 6: I don't get it very badly.

387
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 1: I don't know how you guys can live in that area.

388
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 6: You get it bad, dude.

389
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 1: That's all over my hands right now, just because you

390
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: walked in the room. He's got a poison oak on

391
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 1: his hand.

392
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 3: Do you get it worse than anyone I've ever seen?

393
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 1: The man I had to quit hunting California. I've been

394
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 1: in places in California where the primary vegetation is poison oak.

395
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: It's like the primary people. It's not like watch out

396
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 1: for poisonous, watch out for vegetation because the primary plant

397
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 1: species it's like, you look, it's a poison oak mono culture.

398
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's all over.

399
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

400
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,880
Speaker 5: I fell asleep in an orchard in California one time

401
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 5: hunting black tail deer.

402
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I woke up.

403
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 5: And I simultaneously had a tick going in my nostril

404
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 5: and in my ear canal to the point of like

405
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 5: just barely being able to grab him. And I used

406
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 5: to think about that in like a PTSD style nightmare

407
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,199
Speaker 5: for years, because I I it was just on the

408
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 5: edge of being able to clamb out of my face

409
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 5: and it was happening in two vents at the same time. Wow,

410
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 5: that's California.

411
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 1: When you guys are knocking around in your area. So,

412
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: so how far when you and your brother got attacked?

413
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 1: How far were you from your house?

414
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 6: It was like a thirty minute drive.

415
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 1: And I would say, what was the what was the

416
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: kind of describe the area to me? Is it rant

417
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: like cattle country? No?

418
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 6: It was more foresty type area.

419
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: But it is it an area you'd spend a lot

420
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: of time in.

421
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 6: No, that was our first time going to that lot.

422
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 1: What brought you to that spot?

423
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 6: When my dad told me about it and then told

424
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 6: you what that they used to find sheds up there? Okay,

425
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 6: like turkey hunting and stuff, all right, So then we

426
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 6: just decided to go check it out.

427
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: Is this the area you got? Do you guys see

428
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: do you guys see a lot of lions in your area?

429
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 4: Like?

430
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 1: Is it common to run in the lions?

431
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 6: On the trail camera?

432
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,719
Speaker 2: We see him a lot, see him driving, see him

433
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 2: across the road.

434
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, Aaron hit one in broad daylight with his pick

435
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 4: up one time.

436
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 2: Whoa, it's like ten years ago. Just jumped out right

437
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: in front of the truck, just ran it over. I

438
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,719
Speaker 2: thought it was dead, but it managed to get up

439
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 2: and limp off the road. And I don't know what

440
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 2: happened to it, never found it, But yeah, people are

441
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 2: everyone's seeing lions everywhere.

442
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 1: It's does that feel like it's increased a lot in

443
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: your lifetime?

444
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 4: Oh, it's it's increased in the last like four or

445
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 4: five years, just like snowball increase. Yeah, like like escalation

446
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 4: to like a degree that is like pretty clearly indicates

447
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 4: that they've just become completely habituated to the human you know,

448
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 4: population residential zones down there at this point.

449
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what's on a different subject, it's about

450
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: wildlife biology in California. The last time they had a

451
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: the last time California had a black bear management plan,

452
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: they did it in nineteen eighty nine and they had

453
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: estimated population of twenty thousand black bears. They just put

454
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: a new pop They just put a new management plan

455
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,239
Speaker 1: out for comment. The comment period is closed, and like

456
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: if you go down the middle of the range, the

457
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: middle of the estimated range is sixty five thousand.

458
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 6: Yep, jeez.

459
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: They did. They looked at something with they were looking

460
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: at the relationship between black bears and mountain lions and

461
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: some research there of the collared mountain lion. So when

462
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: a mountain lion. And this this was this work was

463
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: done in Mendocino National Forest. If a mountain lion kills

464
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: a deer in Mendocino National Forest, there's a seventy five

465
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: percent chance that they will lose that deer to there's

466
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: a seventy five percent Sorry, the mountain lion kills a

467
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: deer in Mendocino National Forest, there's a seventy five percent

468
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: chance that a bear will come to that carcass site.

469
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: There's a seventy six percent chance that the bear will

470
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: take the deer from the line, which greatly ups right,

471
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: which greatly ups the amount of work the lions are

472
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: doing to be on the landscape as the bear, as

473
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: the bear numbers come up, like it's it's sort of

474
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: it's sort of had this this cascading effect that pow

475
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: lions behave and how lions utilize the landscape.

476
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you're kind of pointing to like one

477
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 4: of the bigger contextual issues that involves this whole thing,

478
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 4: and that's that California really doesn't have good but weird

479
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: regard just like North American model based comprehensive wildlife management,

480
00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 4: it's just a it's a much less traditional. You can

481
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 4: hardly even call it a model at this point. Like

482
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 4: the lions themselves were, you know, by ballot biology essentially

483
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 4: thirty five years ago they were declared especially protected species

484
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 4: in the state of California.

485
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: Was that under Reagan.

486
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 4: No, what Reagan did was it was done for more

487
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 4: traditional management reasons. They were just trying to get there.

488
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 4: Like a lot of hound guys back in that era

489
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 4: in the late sixties and seventies were concerned that maybe

490
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 4: they had taken too many lions back to whoring the

491
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 4: bounty era, and then it was a free for all.

492
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 4: The bounty system ended in like sixty two or sixty three,

493
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 4: and it was a literal free for all at that point.

494
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 4: There was no management objective or plan in place for

495
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 4: nobody knew how many lions there were. Nobody had really

496
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 4: studied them very you know, effectively, you.

497
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: Can make cash killing them year round.

498
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 4: You could yeah, well yeah, I mean, and you could

499
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 4: merely pursue and kill them year round. So I think

500
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 4: what happen, and it was a lot of guys who

501
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 4: liked to run them were realizing that maybe they were

502
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 4: tipping too far in the take direction. So Reagan signed

503
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 4: a kill moratorium into effect in nineteen seventy two, but

504
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 4: that didn't that did not prevent guys from being able

505
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 4: to run them. They could still run them trium tree

506
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 4: and free. And the kill moratorium was in effect until

507
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty five or eighty six. It was fourteen years long.

508
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 4: So at that point they had collected enough data and

509
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 4: realized that the population was was definitely stable and.

510
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: The Housett they hadn't killed them in fourteen years.

511
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 4: Hadn't killed them in fourteen years. So at that point

512
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 4: they relisted them as a game you know, as a

513
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 4: game species, and they were going to manage them comprehensively

514
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 4: with everything else well HSUS and an outlying foundation and

515
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 4: you know, basically like you know, animal welfare, animal protectionist

516
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 4: NGO's got completely up in arms about it, and they

517
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 4: managed to, by popular ballot measure, have the species declared

518
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 4: especially protected again for zero science. There's no scientific basis

519
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 4: to this at all. It was strictly, you know, the

520
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 4: ability to appeal emotionally to a population.

521
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: They they they they didn't come in and argue population dynamics.

522
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: It was more like, we're not here to argue population levels.

523
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 1: We're not here to argue sustainability. Right, we don't want

524
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: people to legally be able to kill mountains, right. It

525
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: was not a conversation about how many.

526
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 4: Exactly strictly an ideological or philosophical you know, impetus for that, yep.

527
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:51,239
Speaker 1: But divorced from any conversations totally, totally exactly. Yeah, and

528
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: that really led to a lot of increase.

529
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so there, I mean, there's I'm actually I mean,

530
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 4: this is another thing that's going on, and I just

531
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 4: signed a contract with the New York Times magazine to

532
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: write about this entire issue and like really explore like

533
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 4: through the lens of what happened to the boys into

534
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 4: you know, our larger family as a result of it,

535
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 4: and then really the entire region. I mean, this really

536
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 4: impacted that Foothills region hard because so many people had

537
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 4: been had been increasingly nervous about the you know, the

538
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 4: the behavioral changes in the lions that are just palpable

539
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 4: to everybody. You can. I mean, you just people see

540
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 4: them everywhere. They're jumping into people's backyards and taking dogs,

541
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: they're breaking into chicken coops. They're totally blase about, you know,

542
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: just being seen in broad daylight. And it was certainly

543
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 4: not that way when we were growing up around there.

544
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 5: Right, It's no longer this thing that if you spend

545
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 5: enough time outside mm hmm or driving in like the

546
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 5: twilight in certain areas, you get really lucky you might

547
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 5: see one exactly.

548
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 4: But when we were kids, I mean, we knew when

549
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 4: they were there. We knew guys who had hound kennels

550
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 4: and who ran them, and we would hear lion scream

551
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 4: from time to time down in the canyon behind our house.

552
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 4: Everybody knew that they were around, but if somebody saw

553
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 4: one in broad daylight, it would make the local newspaper

554
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 4: because it was just such anomalous event.

555
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: Do you remember a few years ago? Can you find

556
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: do you mind looking up what yurtis was? There was

557
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: one summer a few years ago when Washington had its

558
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: first documented mountain lion fatality. Yeah, and then Oregon had

559
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: its first and ninety years and that happened the same summer. Yeah,

560
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: And I was talking to a friend of mine who

561
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: does a lot of work. He'd done a lot of

562
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: depredation work for the state of Oregon yep. Twenty eighteen.

563
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: He done a lot of depredation work for the state

564
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: of Oregon. And was to him, I'm like, how much

565
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: does that just freak? Like how much is that it's

566
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: freak coincidence? And how much of that is something different?

567
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: And to paraphrase him, I mean we had a long

568
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: conversation about it. His take was, there's a huge freak element, right,

569
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: there's a huge freak element you can't discount, like in

570
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: the same summer.

571
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: Right.

572
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: But he said also, like in my career, I have

573
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: seen a major change in the management attitude around lions.

574
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: Where it used to be one lion kind of came

575
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: up against that human threshold. There was serious pushback, like

576
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: you know, if the lion was too aggressive around livestock,

577
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: was too blase around people, we would kill the lion.

578
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, just too apt to be seen.

579
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, And he said and since then it's been

580
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: pushed and pushed him, push to not take action, to

581
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: not take action. So he felt, as much as it's

582
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: crazy than the same summer, we'd see that. Yeah, it

583
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: aligns with what I'm seeing, which is a great reluctance

584
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: on the part of the state agencies. Yeah, for fear

585
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: of public pushback, right, often coming from people who aren't

586
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: dealing with them, For fear of published pushback of being

587
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: too aggressive around depredation issues, too aggressive around hazing lions,

588
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: too aggressive around taking any kind of control measure. Yeah,

589
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: so he like wasn't shocked, right, did it happen?

590
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, when you break down even like the state

591
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 4: in California is a ground zero for you know exactly

592
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 4: what you're talking about, because the degree of like public

593
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 4: sentiment that can be steered, you know, both by just

594
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 4: a sort of hyperbolic sensationalistic you know, media reportings. I mean,

595
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 4: they'll report that there are an estimated four thy five

596
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 4: hundred lions and the state of California, and people hear

597
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 4: that raw number and they automatically are like, holy mackerel,

598
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 4: they must be on the verge of extinction, which is

599
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 4: not the case. I mean, the state of Montana has

600
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 4: between five and seven thousand, right, and the State of

601
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 4: Montana estimates that that is within twenty five percent of

602
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 4: the pre European contact number. So I mean, if you've

603
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 4: got this apex predator, the just are not that that

604
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 4: are territorial and there are not that many of them

605
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 4: saturating as a rule a really large land space. But

606
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 4: I mean in California, because you have you know again

607
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 4: animal welfare and animal protectionist NGOs who are ideologically committed

608
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 4: to a certain outcome, right, and they've got very deep pockets.

609
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 4: They're very well funded, and they're very able to manipulate

610
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 4: the sort of you know, the media sensationalistic dimension of

611
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: things to achieve ends through non scientific means and non

612
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 4: official means. I mean, you put something on a ballot,

613
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 4: you can get enough. You know, people who are just

614
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 4: probably perfectly well intentioned with the way that they vote,

615
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 4: they're just they're just naive or you know, under educated,

616
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 4: underinformed on what the you know, the actual boots on

617
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 4: the ground situation is for others who live in more

618
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 4: royal areas and actually have to deal with the fallout

619
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 4: of restricting traditional management policies.

620
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: I hear that, you know, like people say, like uneducated

621
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: or informed, but also just different. Yeah, just different, sure,

622
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: a different set of like a.

623
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 4: Different different different values. It's different worldview, yeah for sure.

624
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

625
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 4: Now to get you know, come a little bit full

626
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 4: circle here talking about you know what your buddy was observing.

627
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 4: It was doing depredation work and Oregon I'm in contact

628
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: with it. You know a bunch of people federal trappers

629
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 4: and whatnot in California who are fighting a totally uphill

630
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 4: battle on that front. But if you look at in

631
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 4: twenty twenty, the Department of Ficient Wildlife in California decide

632
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 4: again and partially in reaction to public outcry over one

633
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 4: of the celebrity lions, you know, the well known lions

634
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: around you know, Santa Monica Mountains or whatever that was

635
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 4: collared and you know, wound up being taken on a

636
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 4: depredation basis. Because of the hue and cry from that,

637
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 4: the state Department Officient Wildlife decided to implement this universal

638
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 4: three strikes depredation policy where the actual depredation language in

639
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 4: one ballot won Measure one seventeen, which is what put

640
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 4: this opened this Pandora's box in the first place, you know,

641
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 4: thirty five years ago. It does have reasonable depredation provisions

642
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 4: in it where it basically says that if a livestock producer,

643
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 4: pet owner, whatever can you know, can demonstrate that there

644
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 4: was a single instance of depredation by a lion, the

645
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 4: state is supposed to shoe a lethal shell issue language

646
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 4: depredation permit to be able to you know, get a

647
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 4: you know contract with the trapper or whatever to go

648
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 4: ahead and lethally pursue that animal. Well, they change that

649
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 4: again because of I think just cosmetic reasons, like wanting

650
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 4: to appear to a certain set of the California voting population.

651
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 4: They changed that in two thy twenty to a universal

652
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 4: three strikes policy, in which now a single landowner has

653
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 4: to demonstrate that multiple incidents of depredation have occurred from

654
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 4: the same lion before they will issue a lethal depredation permit.

655
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: So it's like the thing with the felons, like three strikes,

656
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: like three felons, you know. Now, I don't know when

657
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: that was fashionable. I remember that being coming a thing

658
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: in Michigan. Yea, when I was growing up. Yeah, they

659
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: had the okay, like your third felony, you're out.

660
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, like it's a baseball up until then.

661
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, just try to calm down.

662
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, so you've committed, that's enough.

663
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

664
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 4: Let me just like close this point with this, because

665
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 4: this is really critical. Between nineteen ninety five and twenty nineteen,

666
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 4: there were a dozen lion attacks on humans in the

667
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 4: state of California with no with one fatality. In two

668
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 4: thousand and four, I believe a mountain biker in southern California,

669
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 4: Orange County or right, I think so. Yeah, between twenty

670
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 4: twenty and now after they changed that depredation permit policy,

671
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 4: there have been nine attacks on humans, with Tailing representing

672
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 4: the single fatality out of that group. But I mean,

673
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 4: if you think about that, you have a twenty five

674
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 4: year period in which they're doing, you know, the more

675
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 4: traditional prescription for depredation permits, and you get a dozen

676
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 4: attacks literally the same year that that depredation policy change.

677
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 4: Is that put into motion of four year nine attack

678
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 4: tally on humans? Yeah? So I mean is it anecdotal, Yeah,

679
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 4: to a degree, But is it like difficult to sort

680
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 4: of argue with them, you know math? I mean I

681
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: don't think it is, especially when again, I mean the

682
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,959
Speaker 4: just the number of daylight sightings and livestock and pet

683
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 4: depredations has just skyrocketed during the same period.

684
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's in California, mounta lions kill mountain lions, vehicles

685
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 5: kill mountain lions, and secondary rodenticide poisoning kills mountain lions.

686
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 4: And that's about it except for the playing that.

687
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 5: Well, a lot of landscaping golf courses in California, and

688
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 5: so they use a lot of rodenticide, and then the

689
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 5: foxes coyotes eat the squirrels that have died from rodenticide,

690
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 5: and then the mountain lions knock those guys out.

691
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: Is that a thing that has the happen from long

692
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: term exposure or is that a one Can that be

693
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: a one and done deal?

694
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 5: It can be a one and done deal, but it's

695
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 5: not going to be like the single factor from all

696
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 5: the all the stuff I've read. I'm not an expert here, right,

697
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 5: but it is it's a compounding condition because a rodenticide

698
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 5: is an anti coagulant and so like also it's like

699
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 5: how much is that cat getting from eating something that's

700
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 5: eating something?

701
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, So there's another thing at play I think

702
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 1: when it comes to California and public perception of predators,

703
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: and it's it's for for expecting the public to have

704
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: the kind of mental elasticity to understand that different places

705
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: have different situations and to and to back out on

706
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: that and use another example to illustrate what I'm saying

707
00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: on a broader scale, it would be that that elk Okay, yeah,

708
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: elk have only been recovered or let's say elk only

709
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: exist on fourteen percent of their native range in the

710
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: lower forty eight Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee. Like that was

711
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: elk country. Oh yeah, everywhere was elk country.

712
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 4: There's buffalo country from.

713
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: The hunter, yeah, from the Yeah, there were western Minnesota. Okay, yeah,

714
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: so you had the like you had eastern forests with elk,

715
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: like and Daniel boone day the hunted elk. Yep, they're

716
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: not there now. But you're able to have conversations about

717
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: there being too many elk in Colorado coming from an

718
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: agricultural perspective, and no one says, well, how could that

719
00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: be true. They haven't been recovered in Tennessee, right, But

720
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: you're able to say, well, because it's a different place

721
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: and there's a different thing going on, and what's happening

722
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: in one place isn't happening in another place. So I

723
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: think that when they had the the when they all that,

724
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: that that excitement for years with the guy that got

725
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: the picture of the lion by the Hollywood sign, and

726
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: it was just this lion that was you know, isolated

727
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: and boxed in by highways, and there was this big,

728
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: like outpouring of empathy for this cat living in this

729
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: unexpected landscape. Socially isolated, soul, full of risk. Right. You

730
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: hear that, and hear that, hear that, and it creates

731
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: in your head a image of something that is desperately imperiled,

732
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: and then that's in your head, and then it becomes

733
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: hard to understand that you can go a few hundred

734
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: miles away into a different range of hills, a different

735
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: mountain range, and have a completely different situation on the ground.

736
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 4: Sure, and along with that, I mean the you know,

737
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 4: the more urban and suburb urban population down there, they're

738
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 4: assuming that the entire state. It probably unconsciously, but there's

739
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 4: there's a presumption that the entire state looks like they're

740
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 4: swimming pool and you know, yard fans six houses to

741
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 4: an acre southern California track development. But it doesn't. I mean,

742
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 4: the the rural foothills where we're from are still I mean,

743
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 4: there's so much of that is literally undevelopable just because

744
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 4: of the geographic nature of the terrain.

745
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 5: And then the brush situation in California, just like we

746
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 5: talked about the poison oak, you can hide a lot

747
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 5: of animals.

748
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: In that stuff.

749
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,959
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, just are not going to get seen.

750
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I recently did the drive from uh,

751
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 1: Sacramento to over by Fort Bragg.

752
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Russian River area, dude, unbelievable.

753
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: I mean just the country in there and the ship

754
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: that you would not want to I mean not not

755
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: want to, but it would be like hard stuff to

756
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: go through.

757
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 4: Oh, totally. I mean even if you go down your country,

758
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 4: go down like Highway one by like big sur or

759
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 4: go the whole state is Yes, there were huge dense

760
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 4: population zones, but it is a massive state with a

761
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 4: lot of a very wild land in it. Still, Yeah,

762
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 4: for sure.

763
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: Why how how comfortable are you talking about the day

764
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: you and your brother were attacked?

765
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 6: Uh? I think I'd be fine talking about it.

766
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: Can you tell me what, uh kind of how the

767
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: morning went whatever, Like what you guys, what your plan was,

768
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: what you guys did? Yes, So how it came to

769
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: be that you decided to go out with your brother?

770
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 6: Like, well, we were just sitting at home board and

771
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 6: so I asked them if you wanted to go, and

772
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 6: so we both decided just to go try a new spot.

773
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 6: So we drove up there and there was a gated

774
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 6: for a service road, so I just pulled off the

775
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 6: side and we just decided to walk that road.

776
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: Had you seen other folks around?

777
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 6: There was one one other car pretty close to us

778
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 6: because there was like a walking trail that they were

779
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 6: stopped at, and then but we pulled up past them.

780
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 5: Were you doing the classic Hunters mental gymnastics of like,

781
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 5: is that somebody looking for sheds that's parked at the

782
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 5: hiking trail or is that some old lady walking her poodle?

783
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 6: Mm?

784
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't care. I know what Cal's

785
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: saying because I have the problem. I could be out

786
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: doing the most esoteric thing on the planet, like I

787
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: could be. Let's say I wanted to find a railroad

788
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 1: spike for some reason, and I see a car park

789
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: I'm like some of the bitches looking for ver, Like

790
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: every car is doing what I'm trying to do in

791
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: my head.

792
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 5: Beat me too, Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

793
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: Sons of bitches are looking for more else.

794
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, anxiety walking their dog.

795
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

796
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 5: So you guys get parked and you start walking it

797
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 5: up the for a service road.

798
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 1: Yeah.

799
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 6: Then we get like one hundred and fifty yards away

800
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 6: from my car and I'm looking up to the left

801
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 6: because the right side of the road is just steep,

802
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 6: so I wasn't looking down there so as I'm looking

803
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 6: to my left, I see something like out of the

804
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 6: corner of my eye come up from the steep side

805
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 6: up onto the road. At first, I just thought it

806
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 6: was a dog. That was the first thing that came

807
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 6: to mind. And then that's when I turned and looked

808
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 6: and realizing, and so I told my brother to look,

809
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 6: and but it only it came up like ten yards

810
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 6: away from us.

811
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 5: And you feel like you're one hundred and fifty yards

812
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 5: from the car from where you parked further from the gate.

813
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, we were walking for like five minutes, like yeah,

814
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 6: what time of day? Mmm, like one one thirty, just midday, but.

815
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 5: The heat of the day, I would say it like that.

816
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 6: So yeah, so I look telling my brother to look.

817
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 6: He looks, and then so we both just start putting

818
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 6: our arms up and yelling at it. But it doesn't

819
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 6: care at all. It just looks calm, and it's just

820
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 6: walking towards us slowly. And so we're backpedaling down the road,

821
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 6: which the line was above us because it was the

822
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 6: road was heading down, and so it's just walking towards us,

823
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 6: and the only thing I could think of is to

824
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 6: throw my backpack at it, because I had a backpack on,

825
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 6: so I sling that off, throw it at it, and

826
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 6: it hits the left side of its face, but it

827
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 6: kind of like it didn't even really flinch, like it

828
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 6: just closed that left eye. And then the backpack hit

829
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 6: it in the left side of the face and then

830
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 6: just skimmed across its body. But it didn't care. It

831
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 6: just kept walking at us.

832
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 3: And then were you guys still yelling or able to

833
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 3: stay calm or hmm?

834
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 6: At that point it was I guess like the adrenaline

835
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 6: was kicking in.

836
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 5: This is so bizarre, so bizarre, middle of the day,

837
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 5: one hundred and fifty yards from the truck. I've called

838
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 5: in two kats in the last two turkey out and

839
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 5: sees in like places where I really had to walk in. Yeah,

840
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 5: and both of those cats were more than happy to

841
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 5: get the hell out of there.

842
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: When I stood up and looked at.

843
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 5: Them, once they made looked made eye contact, those cats

844
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 5: were gone. Yeah, So hitting it in the face with

845
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 5: anything is just insane.

846
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 6: And it didn't care. And then so yeah, my brother's

847
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 6: like I'm on the left side of the road, he's

848
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 6: on the right, but he's a little bit behind me,

849
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 6: and it's like me and the line are just locked

850
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 6: eyes with each other, and so it's just walking towards me.

851
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 6: But I didn't want to run, so we're just we

852
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 6: start to speed up, back pedaling, and there's a there

853
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 6: was a stick in the road laying sideways, and so

854
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 6: I'm back pedaling and I start to speed up and

855
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 6: then I step on that and my foot slips out

856
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 6: from under me, so I fall down. But at that point,

857
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 6: the lion's already like, I don't know, six or seven

858
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 6: yards in front of me. So I fall and then

859
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 6: I just remember the line comes around my left side,

860
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 6: and then that's when it bites me. So I kind

861
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 6: of put my arms up. And then after it bites,

862
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 6: I grab it and I flip it over and I

863
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 6: get on top of it, and I like have my

864
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 6: arms on its neck pushing it down. I imagine it

865
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 6: doesn't like that, no, so then it starts clawing at me.

866
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: It is it big, the lion? Yeah?

867
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 6: Uh, it seemed big to me, but it was what

868
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 6: like ninety pounds?

869
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think it was. It was like

870
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 4: a juvenile mail basically probably approximate little a little over

871
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 4: like a half the size that they can't actually get

872
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 4: to yeah, so.

873
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I flip it over, I get on top

874
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 6: of it, and then that's when it starts clawing me,

875
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 6: so I kind of release my grip a little bit

876
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 6: so it manages to spin out from under me. And

877
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 6: then but it all happened so fast to where my

878
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 6: brother couldn't really even do anything to help me. So

879
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 6: he was still standing behind me to my right. So

880
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 6: when the lion got up and spun around, like, my

881
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 6: brother was right there. So then the lion ran at him,

882
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 6: jumped up on his back legs, took him down, but

883
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 6: it just went straight for his neck, so there wasn't

884
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 6: much he could do. And then so I get up

885
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 6: and like, as that's happening, I remember, like I just

886
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 6: stand there in the road and I touched my face

887
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 6: and look because it felt like a dream, like didn't

888
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 6: It was weird, So I kind of had to I

889
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 6: like told myself, like, this is actually happening, and so

890
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 6: I have to, like I like snap back into it.

891
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 6: And then that's when I went for my brother. So

892
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 6: I just grabbed the lion and kind of tug a

893
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 6: few times, but that's all I really did. But I

894
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 6: couldn't get it to let go and at that point,

895
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 6: I was feeling kind of weak because I had been

896
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 6: losing a lot of blood.

897
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: And then.

898
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 6: So after I tried tugging, can't get it to get

899
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 6: off of him, trying to think of what to do,

900
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 6: and all I can think of is my car, because

901
00:51:54,200 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 6: I know that they're scared of vehicles. So at that point, well,

902
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 6: the reason I did that is because the whole time

903
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 6: my brother had his arms like I could see. I

904
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 6: could never see his face because the line was in

905
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 6: between me and my brother's face, but I could see

906
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 6: his arms doing something up here. But as time went

907
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 6: on and they ended up like almost off the side

908
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 6: of the hill, but I could see that by that

909
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 6: point his arms were just like limp now, not holding yeah,

910
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 6: not holding it anymore, and he wasn't moving, So I

911
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 6: pretty much I just knew there was like nothing else

912
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 6: I could really do. So that's when I thought of

913
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 6: the car. So I reached for my phone to call

914
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 6: nine one one, and my phone's down in my pocket.

915
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:54,839
Speaker 6: So I'm looking around from my phone and I find

916
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 6: it in the middle of the road, so I grab

917
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 6: it and then I head back to my car. I'm

918
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 6: jogging to my car, and I pulled my shirt off

919
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 6: to hold on my face stop the blood, and then

920
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 6: A said, I'm trying to dial nine one one, Like

921
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 6: the blood kept dripping on my phone so it wasn't typing.

922
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 6: So eventually I got that off and got it to work.

923
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 6: So I as I'm running to my car, I'm on

924
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 6: the phone with nine one one, and then make it

925
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 6: to my car and then I have to drive around

926
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 6: the locked gate. So I'm driving through like small trees

927
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 6: and rocks, and then I get onto the road make

928
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 6: my way down there. But by the time I drove

929
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 6: down there, they were both gone. So I flip around

930
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 6: and I'm looking out the left side out the window.

931
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 6: I'm looking down the hill.

932
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 5: But sorry, so your brother and the cat are no

933
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 5: longer on the road. Yeah, and but you have a

934
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 5: good idea where it all happened. Your backpacks laying there

935
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 5: or something.

936
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 6: Backpack was in the middle of the road. Yeah, and

937
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 6: I knew right where it had happened. But so yeah,

938
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 6: So I so I'm looking out the window down the hill,

939
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 6: but I still don't see anything. So then I just

940
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 6: asked what I should do to the dispatcher, and so

941
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 6: I just went I drove to the backside of the gate,

942
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 6: and I just parked there and waited for someone to

943
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 6: show up.

944
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: Did they have any sense of what you were talking

945
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: about when you called? I mean, did they have any

946
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: like did it seem like an inform Probably not like

947
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: an informed opinion about this?

948
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 6: Well, what do you mean?

949
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: I probably had never dealt like the dispatch. Oh yeah,

950
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 1: no idea? What yeah, no idea how to deal with someone?

951
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, no idea.

952
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 5: So it was probably just okay, stay calm, somebody's going

953
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 5: to be there type of stuff. M m.

954
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

955
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 6: Like it wasn't really helping much by telling me what

956
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 6: to do.

957
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: But did you have to direct then when they came?

958
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: Did you take someone to the area?

959
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,760
Speaker 6: No, I didn't take them, but it was like a

960
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 6: star volunteer car was the first car that showed up,

961
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 6: and they had a dog and a pistol, and so

962
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 6: they just came up to me and I told them

963
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 6: right where to go. I said, like you'd see the

964
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 6: backpack in the road, and then so they went down

965
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 6: there and then I was just waiting still.

966
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: Then they shot the lion. No, No, that was later.

967
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 6: That was later on.

968
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

969
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 6: I don't even know if that person saw it, because

970
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 6: it had it had drag tailing quite a ways down

971
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 6: that hill.

972
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

973
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 4: The Star volunteers are like a community watch type, you know,

974
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 4: volunteer outfit. They're They're really not like L A O

975
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:04,879
Speaker 4: or right.

976
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's horrifying.

977
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 6: Man, Wow, it sucked.

978
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

979
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 4: I don't know, like you know how much this is

980
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,879
Speaker 4: like within the protocol of this. But last night why

981
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 4: It talked to the first responding paramedic for the first

982
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 4: time or two nights ago, I guess, but he said,

983
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 4: wyat pictures from the field of what whyatts of his

984
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 4: injuries out there and which I mean I looked at

985
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 4: him last night. I mean, do you feel comfortable showing

986
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 4: those to these guys just so, because I mean it

987
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 4: really is highly illustrative of exactly how like crazy this

988
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 4: whole thing was, of your of your injuries of me.

989
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, do you remember because you have some some scars

990
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 5: on your face. I assume that's from the cat. Was

991
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 5: that when he first whacked you, like right when you

992
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 5: fell or was that from clawing when you got on

993
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 5: top of the cat or do you remember it all?

994
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 6: I remember, No, it was just the first It only

995
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 6: bit me once, and that's what the scars are from.

996
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: Oh, so that that's teeth. Yeah, wow, that's wild.

997
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, went like through my nose well.

998
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 5: Before we go on. Man, it's horrifying. It is brutal,

999
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 5: and I'm so sorry you and the family had to.

1000
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: Go through this.

1001
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 6: Thank you.

1002
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's all I can think about. Man, that's very,

1003
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 5: very hard.

1004
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 6: But if you guys want to see the pictures.

1005
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess that's the other thing that it kind

1006
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 4: of demonstrates has hold brilliant. The plastic surgeon who worked

1007
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 4: on him was.

1008
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 6: And there's one more picture you can scroll.

1009
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:57,479
Speaker 5: So did you how long roughly how long before any

1010
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 5: any sort of emergency services chill up?

1011
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 6: There was some deputies who showed up within like fifteen minutes,

1012
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 6: i'd say, and then the medic came shortly after, like

1013
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 6: twenty minutes. It took them to get there.

1014
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 5: But but I imagine even with the deputies there, it

1015
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 5: was probably just up to you to keep holding your

1016
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 5: shirt to your face.

1017
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, they didn't really help.

1018
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 5: I'm sure they didn't want much to do with it.

1019
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1020
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, But as soon as the medic got there, though,

1021
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 6: then they started helping.

1022
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: Was your brother? Was your brother pronounced dead on the scene.

1023
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 6: No, we didn't find out till that night in the hospital.

1024
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 6: It was pretty late when we found out, right.

1025
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: But earlier.

1026
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 2: The share the deputies and the sheriff had figured it

1027
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: out right before we knew.

1028
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: Oh so yeah, well there was nothing they could do

1029
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: to try to help them. I mean he was no,

1030
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: he was dead when they found him.

1031
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you had to guess from the time you

1032
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 3: saw that mountain lion till the time you know, you

1033
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 3: had to go back to the truck, Like, was that

1034
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 3: like within a few minutes.

1035
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, like just like a couple of minutes. Yeah, it

1036
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 6: was really fast, gotcha. Yeah.

1037
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: Man, this is gonna be like a dumb question because

1038
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: I mean this will you already know this? This is good,

1039
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: This is will be the defining experience of your life.

1040
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,439
Speaker 1: But you're already aware of this, right Yeah, it never

1041
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: goes away, You'll it'll impact you in all manner of

1042
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,479
Speaker 1: ways for as long as you're on earth.

1043
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 2: Right.

1044
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, just like looking at a small detail that

1045
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 1: do you do you've like, do you feel this will

1046
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: transform your kind of like your relationship with with nature?

1047
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 1: Do you still feel drawn to go out to go hunting?

1048
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: Do you still feel drawn to be around animals or

1049
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: did it sort of kill that in you.

1050
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,439
Speaker 6: No, I actually went turkey hunting like just a couple

1051
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 6: of weeks after it had happened in Gotlin. So I

1052
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 6: still feel the same about hunting and all that stuff.

1053
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

1054
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 6: So yeah, I didn't really have an effect on going out.

1055
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: What are what are the things like from a daily perspective?

1056
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: What are the things you kind of remember most or

1057
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: will miss most about your brother? Mmmm?

1058
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 6: Just hanging out because we always shared a room together,

1059
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 6: so now it's just kind of empty. I guess you

1060
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 6: guys shared a room at the time. Yeah, yeah, we've

1061
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 6: shared a room like our whole life.

1062
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: Do you feel a different when you're out turkey hunting?

1063
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: Do you feel a different fear in the woods?

1064
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's I'm definitely a lot more scared being out there,

1065
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 6: but when I'm with people, I'm fine.

1066
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, Aaron, how is this Has this changed your

1067
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 1: desire to be out your relationship with being out a

1068
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: little bit?

1069
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 2: I didn't turkey hunt at all last spring season, which

1070
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 2: is super weird. Yeah, usually we hunt every single day

1071
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: of the entire season, but I didn't hunt at all.

1072
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 2: I went with Wyatt just a handful of times, just

1073
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 2: to go with him to try to get him one,

1074
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 2: but just feels totally different. Constantly looking over my shoulder

1075
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 2: and it's kind of scary.

1076
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, do you feel that you'll find your

1077
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: way back in it in time.

1078
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's just this happened right before Turkey season open,

1079
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 2: so's like.

1080
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:10,919
Speaker 4: It was pretty raw.

1081
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have any motivation to go hunting of course.

1082
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So man, I'm sorry that happened you guys man. Thanks, Yeah,

1083
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: I came picture, uh having that happened to a brother.

1084
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 1: Do you have all the siblings.

1085
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 6: I have a half sister, but I was calling my sister.

1086
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 6: She cool, Yeah, that's good.

1087
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 4: You passed the task.

1088
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: Good job.

1089
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of it's one of those things that

1090
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, oh that that'll never that that

1091
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 3: kind of stuff would never happen to us, right, Yeah,

1092
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 3: you know, we're we're out in the field all the time,

1093
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 3: and you know, I have had experiences that are definitely scary.

1094
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 3: But like, for instance, my buddy, I'm not going to

1095
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 3: mention his name, but a couple of years ago had

1096
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 3: a mountain lion while he was el hunting, called it

1097
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 3: in and it was about ten yards from him, staring

1098
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 3: at him for a few minutes, he threw sticks at it,

1099
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 3: yelled at it, shot an arrow over its back, and

1100
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 3: it just continued to stay there. So eventually he did

1101
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 3: have to shoot it. But you know, he was like

1102
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 3: lucky in that situation. You know, you just never know.

1103
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, I mean he's like he's out there

1104
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 5: with the intent to kill something much bigger than he

1105
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 5: is already.

1106
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 3: And he had a traditional bow that I built him,

1107
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 3: you know, so that cat decided he wanted to.

1108
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 5: So you knew the bow was capable, is what you

1109
01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 5: were saying.

1110
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's but I mean, it's just it's just crazy.

1111
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 3: It's unbelievable.

1112
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 5: Well, this situation broad daylight, there's two of you, there's

1113
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,959
Speaker 5: one cat. Like it just it does not make any

1114
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 5: conventional sense from all my time in the woods.

1115
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 4: It's just historically just kind of unprecedented.

1116
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 5: Hitting it with something.

1117
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's just.

1118
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: How when when you run it through in your head,

1119
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: when you like, how much does it feel to you

1120
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 1: like what happened to you was just such a freak occurrence,

1121
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like it was it was

1122
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 1: just something that could never happen again, should have never happened?

1123
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: How and how much of you, does it feel like

1124
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: it was a like a like an inevitability or the

1125
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 1: result of broader things going on in your area?

1126
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 6: Uh? Well, yeah, I just never even thought that would

1127
01:04:59,360 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 6: ever happen.

1128
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, So you don't you weren't You didn't walk

1129
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: around prior to this with a sort of an awareness

1130
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 1: of fear of worry about mountain lions in your area.

1131
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 6: No, I mean yeah, I always had the fear of

1132
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 6: them because I knew they were there. But I also

1133
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 6: always had a gun on me, But in that situation,

1134
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 6: I didn't.

1135
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: So was that that road that was one hundred and

1136
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: fifty miles or sorry, one hundred and fifty yards away?

1137
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: Was that a busy traffick road or no?

1138
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 6: No, it was just the old forest Service road sor

1139
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 6: service road and it was behind a lockgate.

1140
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 5: Oh no, no, sorry, the mainstam Steve's referring to. I think, like,

1141
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 5: how much traffic's on the road that connected to the

1142
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 5: forest service road that you guys hiked. It's still not real.

1143
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 6: Still not very much, no, but very little?

1144
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well kind of Oh sorry.

1145
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 4: I was gonna say, yeah, I think where the attack

1146
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 4: happened is within like less than a mile from some

1147
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 4: residential housing. Yeah, and so it's not super like off

1148
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 4: the beaten Path or in the boondogspoon Ducks.

1149
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 2: There's a little.

1150
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 4: Development.

1151
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's houses back there, right on the edge of

1152
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 2: private where it meets for service. So, but it's the

1153
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: same lion that you said, the lady with the girls

1154
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 2: on the bikes.

1155
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I went down to California within four

1156
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 4: or five days after this happened, just to help these

1157
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 4: guys out. And while it was down there, it was

1158
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 4: you know, Plasterville, California is our hometown. They used to

1159
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 4: call it Hangtown. It was like, you know, ground zero

1160
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 4: for the gold Rush. Sitting in this little cafe and

1161
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 4: talking to the waitress and it's somehow, I mean, it

1162
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 4: became a parent to her that, you know, we were

1163
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 4: the family that this happened to. And she told us,

1164
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 4: you know, my parents lived less than a mile from

1165
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 4: where that happened to the boys. And she said, I

1166
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:13,959
Speaker 4: can't even tell you the number of times I've sent

1167
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 4: my eight and ten year old girls down that road

1168
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 4: on their bicycles by themselves, just to go for a

1169
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 4: bike ride. Yeah, she said, now I can't do that anymore. Well,

1170
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 4: I mean the County trapper, in conjunction with the County

1171
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 4: Sheriff's apartment, will wound up killing two more full grown

1172
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 4: toms within the city limits within two to three weeks

1173
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 4: after the attack on the boys, and both of them

1174
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 4: were within one hundred yards of an elementary school in

1175
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 4: broad daylight on a paved hiking trail. We're just off

1176
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 4: of a paved hiking trail, and you know, the level

1177
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 4: of awareness was so high in the entire area at

1178
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 4: that point. I mean, they went back and forth with

1179
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 4: the state, you know, what do we do? What do

1180
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 4: we do? And the Lions had both treed and sort

1181
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:10,439
Speaker 4: of different circumstances on taking each one, but ultimately they

1182
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 4: euthanized them. You know, the county sheriff just ultimately made

1183
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 4: the call and said, I have to regard these things

1184
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 4: as as a safety, you know, public safety issue.

1185
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 3: Has there been any like, was that cat territorial? Was

1186
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 3: it famished? You know, was it hungary? Any sort of

1187
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 3: theories done on that.

1188
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean people have kind of like thrown it.

1189
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 4: But again, because of the just extraordinary anomaly of this,

1190
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 4: I mean, there's really no standard of comparison for this

1191
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 4: particular incident. The cat was healthy. It did not have rabies.

1192
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 4: They established that why it initially had to go through

1193
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 4: like preliminary rabies you know, medications, but they determined ultimately

1194
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 4: that it did not have rabies. They I believe they

1195
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 4: said its stomach was empty. But other people have you know,

1196
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 4: who understand lying behavior, wildlife biologists and whatnot, have also said, well,

1197
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 4: it wasn't really acting predatory per se, more like territorial,

1198
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:27,480
Speaker 4: you know, or maybe because it was a juvenile cat,

1199
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 4: it really didn't know what it was doing. It was

1200
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 4: just a young, aggressive male and.

1201
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 5: He knows he's not wanted in all these other places,

1202
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 5: right because of adult males. Yeah, well, they had had

1203
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,759
Speaker 5: predation on sheep and goats and right in that same

1204
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:50,799
Speaker 5: you know, general area, within the prior couple of weeks.

1205
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 5: So there's also speculation of this was the same cat

1206
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 5: doing that. Although they are seeing so many lions, and

1207
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 5: they're seeing lions that are you know, even like as

1208
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 5: many as four at one time, which is also really

1209
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 5: bizarre and anomalous. Usually, I mean, if you see two,

1210
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 5: it's usually a mom and a kitten, or if you

1211
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 5: see three, it's a mom and twins. But to see

1212
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 5: four together is also sort of unprecedented a little bit.

1213
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 5: And a lot of this stuff is documented on like

1214
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 5: phones and ring cameras and you know, trail cameras. And

1215
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 5: I couldn't remember the name of the college, so I

1216
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:35,439
Speaker 5: had to look it up. But Pepperdine. They're in the

1217
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 5: Santa Monica Mountains. Yeah, was that last year or two

1218
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 5: years ago that they were shutting down the campus because

1219
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 5: of mountain lion activity? Yeah, on camp And this is

1220
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 5: a fancy pants school.

1221
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 4: Oh big time. Yeah, that's like West Coast Ivy League level.

1222
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean I guess that's

1223
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 4: the other thing I should kind of note here. I mean,

1224
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:57,679
Speaker 4: this happened in the foothills, and you know that that

1225
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 4: you know, gold Rush Foothills region is a real hotspot,

1226
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 4: but honestly, it's all over the state that the stuff

1227
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 4: is happening, like just increased lion presence in you know,

1228
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 4: drastically increased depredation, problems with livestock or pets, and then

1229
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 4: you know, since twenty twenty, a real increase in attacks

1230
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 4: on humans. Almost all of them have been kids under

1231
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 4: the age of like eight. And the reason none of

1232
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 4: them were fatal is because you know, it was typically

1233
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 4: like on the periphery of a like a park setting

1234
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 4: or something where there were a bunch of adults around,

1235
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 4: who could you know, present enough of a you know,

1236
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 4: enough of the presence. Yeah, just a presence, you know.

1237
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 4: And and the cats ultimately didn't kill any of these kids.

1238
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 4: So that's another reason why this one is so strange.

1239
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 4: You know, it's most of the attacks are on juveniles,

1240
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 4: not on a pair of adult sized males.

1241
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 1: Would it take a it would take an act of

1242
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:02,120
Speaker 1: God for California to reinstate lion hunting right.

1243
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:05,559
Speaker 4: Well, they can't because because it was passed on a

1244
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 4: popular ballot measure, the only way to undo that is

1245
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 4: through a secondary popular ballot measure. So what the state

1246
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 4: can do, and whether it'll be willing to or not,

1247
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,520
Speaker 4: is I mean, the first thing that they could do immediately,

1248
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 4: just by internal policy is returned to the original provision

1249
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 4: for issuing lethal depredation permits. They can do that. There

1250
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 4: might also especially after that study that Bart George did

1251
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 4: in Washington, the Holland hazing study to determine the effectiveness.

1252
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:38,719
Speaker 1: No, he's publishing on that soon, I know, and I've.

1253
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 4: Been in communication with him also been in communication with

1254
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:45,680
Speaker 4: the guy who used to be the lead predator biologist

1255
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 4: for California for seven years. He now works for Wyoming.

1256
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:54,440
Speaker 4: His name's Justin Dellinger, and he's like legit wildlife biologists

1257
01:12:54,439 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 4: PhD North America, totally like very much and adherent to

1258
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 4: the North American model in terms of his own, you know,

1259
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 4: personal philosophy for how you go about doing this stuff.

1260
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 4: But he also grew up in western North Carolina in

1261
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 4: a hound hunting family, and so he was hired by

1262
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 4: the state in twenty twelve or so, I believe, and

1263
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 4: for what he did for seven years was go all

1264
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,839
Speaker 4: around the state, almost every county in California, tree lions

1265
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,080
Speaker 4: in Colera. I'm trying to put a data set together.

1266
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 4: So he told me on the phone that he has

1267
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 4: since been sort of pressure. He was pressured to leave

1268
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 4: his position because his, you know, his management philosophy was

1269
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 4: so at odds with what the President administration's you know,

1270
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:46,760
Speaker 4: department is really you know, wanting to the direction that

1271
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,599
Speaker 4: they would like to go or are going. So at

1272
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:52,680
Speaker 4: any rate, I talked to Dellinger and he told me

1273
01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 4: that he tried to design a very similar study to

1274
01:13:55,880 --> 01:14:01,520
Speaker 4: what Bart George did in Washington, you know, just to mathematically, quantitatively,

1275
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 4: you know, scientifically, demonstrate the effectiveness of kind of preliminary

1276
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:11,559
Speaker 4: hound hazing on behavioral conditioning for lines to keep them

1277
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 4: away from you just make them more evasive, the evasive

1278
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:16,800
Speaker 4: as they used to be when you know there was

1279
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 4: consistent hound pressure put on them. So, I mean, these

1280
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 4: guys who run hounds and understand you know, the psychology

1281
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 4: if you will of that, you know, apex predatory, they

1282
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,680
Speaker 4: already know that, Like this is what works. It's not

1283
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 4: necessarily you know, listing them as a game animal and

1284
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 4: killing a sustainable number every year. What really works is

1285
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 4: when we get to like pursuit train our dogs on

1286
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 4: these things and tree and freeum. So at any rate,

1287
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 4: justin Dellinger put together he told me a very similar

1288
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 4: study and was about to get it green lighted and

1289
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:53,559
Speaker 4: funded in the Mountain Lion Foundation, which is you know,

1290
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 4: primary NGO down there that's responsible for a lot of

1291
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 4: the ballot measure and whatnot. In first place, they caught

1292
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 4: wind of it and they were able to put enough

1293
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 4: pressure on the State Department of Fishing Wildlife to have

1294
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 4: them pull the plug on his study. So long, I

1295
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:10,640
Speaker 4: mean a big roundabout way of saying. They are like

1296
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 4: myriad complexities to this in terms of like how do

1297
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 4: we get some meaningful management protocols back in place in

1298
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 4: that region.

1299
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 1: I want to explain to folks real quick. When we're

1300
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 1: talking about work Bark George was doing with.

1301
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 4: Cattspell tribe, yes, north of Spokane.

1302
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: So he was working on this project where they have

1303
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 1: lions that are on the sort of suburban rural interfaith

1304
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 1: and they have collars on them so they can tell

1305
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: where the lion is at any given time, and they'll

1306
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: go and play audio of human voices.

1307
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 4: Much of it was your voice, I believe. Yeah.

1308
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 1: They used yeah for a long time. I don't know

1309
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 1: if he still does. They use the Mediator podcast. They

1310
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 1: play the podcast out loud, and then they run the

1311
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 1: lion with dogs and give it a bad experience to

1312
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,559
Speaker 1: get intrigued, right, and trying to see if you to

1313
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 1: what degree, what degree to being chased and I don't

1314
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 1: know if they paintballed them or something like that or

1315
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 1: whatever they would do to them. If you could get

1316
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 1: if you could monitor an individual lion's behavior and see

1317
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:25,120
Speaker 1: if it getting bad experiences when exposed to human voices,

1318
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:29,439
Speaker 1: would make it less wanting to be around human voices

1319
01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 1: and then watch how it would behave in the presence

1320
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 1: of human voices.

1321
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, once they have, they're.

1322
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 1: Public they're publishing their research about is it possible. Basically

1323
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:40,920
Speaker 1: they're trying they were trying to set out to validate

1324
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 1: or refute the assumption that negative experiences will condition lions

1325
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 1: to stay away from yards.

1326
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,679
Speaker 4: And people, right, so like, And they repeated the same

1327
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 4: process multiple times with this established set of lions that

1328
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 4: they had collared, and what they basically were able to

1329
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:09,600
Speaker 4: do was track at what point, at what range the

1330
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 4: lion would decide it just wanted to get out of

1331
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 4: dodge and not encounter people. And like initially, like in

1332
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 4: the like say, the first encounter, these guys were able

1333
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 4: to get within I mean feet literally maybe.

1334
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: Him saying, get fifteen feet totally.

1335
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 4: Totally, and they're just you know, and they're bo you

1336
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 4: can tell they're both just like, I'm not going any farther,

1337
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 4: but that thing's right in there. So then they tree

1338
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 4: that lion. They then call in the houndsman, he trees

1339
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:35,080
Speaker 4: the lion. Well, they go out again. A couple of

1340
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 4: weeks later, pinpoint the same lion through the you know,

1341
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 4: telemetry and do the exact same exercise again. They approach

1342
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 4: the lion while and this time the lion is much

1343
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 4: less inclined to let it get twenty feet from it.

1344
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 4: So they do this exercise a few different times, and

1345
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 4: by the end of it, the lions are like one

1346
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 4: hundred yards away. They hear a human voice and they're

1347
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:59,639
Speaker 4: just like, we're out the back door. So yeah, it's

1348
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 4: really I mean, that particular episode that you honest did

1349
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 4: is really fascinating and I've sent it to a lot

1350
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:09,200
Speaker 4: of people just to try to, you know, get people

1351
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 4: to understand what the missing link and the management chain

1352
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 4: is here.

1353
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:19,080
Speaker 1: Bill. What uh what kind of service did you have

1354
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:22,280
Speaker 1: for your brother? Have you guys had a service room?

1355
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, celebration of a life mm hmm.

1356
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:29,400
Speaker 4: It was big.

1357
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people from the town a ton yeah.

1358
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 3: Play some Metallica.

1359
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:42,480
Speaker 6: Was there.

1360
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:45,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a lot of music that Taylor liked.

1361
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yep. Man, I appreciate you coming out and

1362
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 1: talking to us.

1363
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:52,519
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1364
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:53,719
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to add?

1365
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:57,640
Speaker 6: What? Mm hmmm, I don't think so.

1366
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 1: No, anything you want to add.

1367
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:03,599
Speaker 6: I can't think of anything.

1368
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 1: Nothing. We didn't get to that feels important, Malcolm, what

1369
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:11,559
Speaker 1: do you.

1370
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 4: Think, Well, I mean, I guess there are two sort

1371
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 4: of two prongs to this really. I mean, there's the

1372
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 4: personal family part of it. But then it's also because

1373
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 4: we've been involved in outdoor stuff, you know, our entire

1374
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 4: lives and have had to sort of observe the management

1375
01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:39,160
Speaker 4: deficiencies that have led to you know, an array of

1376
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 4: things in California. It's not just strictly limited to lions.

1377
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a lot of problems with bears down there.

1378
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 4: They have problems with beer, with beavers. They you know,

1379
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 4: they completely outlawed trapping again. You know, I don't know

1380
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 4: if that was a popular ballot measure, if that was

1381
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 4: an actual like legislative you know, endeavor or what. But

1382
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 4: just having observed what happens when you stray from you know,

1383
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:06,559
Speaker 4: these established management protocols that were invented by geniuses one

1384
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:09,959
Speaker 4: hundred and twenty five years ago and responsible for restoring

1385
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 4: the pronghorn antelope and bringing back you know, Canada geese

1386
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 4: maybe a little too much, you know, preserving the last

1387
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:22,640
Speaker 4: of the American bison. I mean, and when you see

1388
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:31,639
Speaker 4: that whole that whole successful model just jettisoned and the

1389
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 4: immediate like after effects of it culminating in something like

1390
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 4: what happened to the boys. We all just got really

1391
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 4: committed to the idea of attempting to you know, stop

1392
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,200
Speaker 4: the domino effect from going you know further. Like now

1393
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 4: we're you know, Colorado is now staring down you know,

1394
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 4: a very similar ballot initiative, and this happened to happen

1395
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:57,120
Speaker 4: in advance of that, and we're just hoping that you know,

1396
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,559
Speaker 4: like appearances like this or the writing the I'm about

1397
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 4: to do about it, will you know, reach multiple audiences

1398
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:09,000
Speaker 4: and lay out a logical case for why it simply

1399
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 4: does not make sense to see wildlife management to public sentiment,

1400
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 4: and you know, hope that we don't have to that California, Oregon,

1401
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 4: and Washington remain the only ones that we have to

1402
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 4: actually backtrack on and undo, so that nobody else going

1403
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:30,439
Speaker 4: forward has to get even deeper into the muck of

1404
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:34,799
Speaker 4: you know, worst case scenario land.

1405
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:38,120
Speaker 1: I find that on some of these bills and some

1406
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 1: of these bailed initiatives and other you know, congressional activities,

1407
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 1: there's a real lack of crystal ball. Oh yeah, if

1408
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 1: you go back to the Wild Horse and Burrow Protection Act, Right, yep,

1409
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,680
Speaker 1: no one at that time could have ever imagined.

1410
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:57,719
Speaker 4: No, it's true.

1411
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 1: Right, it was like there's sort of this fading population

1412
01:22:03,240 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 1: of wildhorses and burrows either way, and they're like, we

1413
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 1: should do something to permanently, right protect them, having no

1414
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:21,000
Speaker 1: idea that in decades to come you'd be creating a

1415
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 1: conservation and humane animal treatment disaster.

1416
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:30,840
Speaker 4: Totally exactly. Yeah, it's the law of unintended consequence.

1417
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:37,719
Speaker 1: So doing these doing these really radical, impossible to reverse

1418
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:44,560
Speaker 1: policy changes which sort of like codifies a certain management

1419
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: strategy and perpetuity strips agencies and citizens of any ability

1420
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:56,600
Speaker 1: to have like adaptive management. When something's in the hands

1421
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 1: of game commissions and state agencies, they're able to take

1422
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:05,560
Speaker 1: this really nuance not only year to year, but oftentimes

1423
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:12,560
Speaker 1: throughout the year, constantly evolving changing needs. Do you know

1424
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like lion populations get kind of alarmingly low, Well,

1425
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:19,720
Speaker 1: there's steps we can take to bring them up. We're

1426
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:21,519
Speaker 1: getting a lot of conflict, there's steps we can take

1427
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 1: to mitigate conflict. And they're able to go in and

1428
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:30,599
Speaker 1: surgically administer something like meaning a lack of animals in

1429
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: Los Angeles does not mean a lack of animals north

1430
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 1: of Sacramento. So let's do what's necessary there, and we'll

1431
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,080
Speaker 1: do what's necessary here, and we'll be fluid. And all

1432
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:41,519
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you make it that it's a one

1433
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:47,920
Speaker 1: size fits all, sledgehammer approach to management, and me saying

1434
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 1: this isn't going to change the perspective of anyone who

1435
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 1: would like to see these these these these like writ

1436
01:23:54,320 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 1: large edicts about wildlife management. They know what they're playing, right,

1437
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:04,440
Speaker 1: they know what they're playing. They like, they're not interested

1438
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: in management. They're not interested in the concerns of rural peoples.

1439
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:11,840
Speaker 1: They're not interested in the concerns of agricultural people, right right,

1440
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:15,400
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't cost them anything to have no management.

1441
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 4: Man, God, I mean, in a way, they're not even

1442
01:24:17,439 --> 01:24:22,040
Speaker 4: interested in the concerns of other animal protectionists, you know organizations,

1443
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 4: if they're more of a conservationists bent rather than like

1444
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 4: an outright you know, animal rights bent. And the easy

1445
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:32,000
Speaker 4: way to demonstrate that in California is the Sierra Nevada

1446
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 4: bighorned cheap population is crashing down in its southern range,

1447
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:42,840
Speaker 4: and the biologists who work with that population down there

1448
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 4: are like legit biologists and they're like lieon depredation on

1449
01:24:48,439 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 4: these wild sheep is the number one contributor to the

1450
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 4: crash that's had and that's an endangered species listed animal.

1451
01:24:56,680 --> 01:25:01,200
Speaker 5: So well, when the when I was down in the

1452
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:04,160
Speaker 5: Santa Monica Mountains probably five years ago, I got to

1453
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:09,960
Speaker 5: run around with a state mountain lion biologist and attempt

1454
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:13,479
Speaker 5: live trap mounta lions down there. Super fun, super cool.

1455
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 5: This guy's very invested in mount lions and really that

1456
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:20,360
Speaker 5: specific population. Some of the stuff that we mentioned, but

1457
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:26,559
Speaker 5: the statewide ban on foothold traps in California, right, we

1458
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:32,960
Speaker 5: were packing around giant cage traps, live animal cage traps

1459
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:35,680
Speaker 5: for something the size of a mountain lion. So this

1460
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:39,240
Speaker 5: guy could do research to benefit mount lions.

1461
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:41,759
Speaker 1: They didn't put a research component into that band. They didn't.

1462
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:42,639
Speaker 1: They didn't.

1463
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 5: We talked a lot about that really.

1464
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there is a research component in one point

1465
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 4: seventeen relative to hound pursuit, which is one thing that

1466
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 4: I really hope and.

1467
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:57,679
Speaker 5: That's what this guy was like, he's never hunted mount lions, Yeah,

1468
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:03,040
Speaker 5: but because he gets to work with houndsman to trap

1469
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 5: mounta lions, particularly like the nuisance ones, so they'll go

1470
01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 5: in dartham, collar him, relocate him sometimes stuff like that.

1471
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,280
Speaker 5: He was like, yeah, I don't care if he kills

1472
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:19,640
Speaker 5: some mountain lions. You know, these guys seem great, you know, yeah, yeah,

1473
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,439
Speaker 5: And then that is something that we should should ask,

1474
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 5: like why, what are your thoughts on on mountain lions?

1475
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:30,080
Speaker 5: Do you feel like you'd add him to the hunt

1476
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:32,679
Speaker 5: list if you had had the chance. Do you think

1477
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 5: they should all go away?

1478
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 1: Where'd youammed up?

1479
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:39,720
Speaker 6: I don't think they should all go away, but I

1480
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 6: think you should be able to hunt him or at

1481
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 6: least do something to bring the population down, I guess,

1482
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:50,479
Speaker 6: But I don't think they should fully go away.

1483
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:51,880
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

1484
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:53,639
Speaker 6: That's how I think about it.

1485
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:57,280
Speaker 1: That's a mature that seems pretty level headed for in

1486
01:26:57,320 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 1: your situation. That's a mature perspective, I'd say, yeah.

1487
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:03,479
Speaker 5: But if you bring up Colorado like we talked about, right, Like,

1488
01:27:05,040 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 5: guy gets swatted while he's sitting in his hot guy

1489
01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 5: gets attacked on his front porch, kid gets attacked in

1490
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:15,600
Speaker 5: the backyard, lots and lots of dogs, all within the

1491
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 5: last four years, right and still right now, there's a

1492
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:23,040
Speaker 5: citizens initiative to ban lion hunting completely.

1493
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 4: Yep.

1494
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 5: Right, So it's like this type of stuff, this like

1495
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:32,960
Speaker 5: horrible tragedy that you and your family have had to

1496
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:38,760
Speaker 5: go through, Like it doesn't move the needle apparently.

1497
01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 4: Right, Well, I think it could, but it's going to

1498
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 4: do that with the sort of like middle of the

1499
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:48,920
Speaker 4: road fence sitters who maybe are not don't have particularly

1500
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:52,080
Speaker 4: strong feelings about it one way or another, but could

1501
01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 4: be pretty easily swayed by an emotional appeal to them

1502
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 4: and the animal you know, animal rights and goos are

1503
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:03,680
Speaker 4: really adept at producing what I would refer to as

1504
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 4: straight up propaganda to appeal to you know, and otherwise

1505
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:13,679
Speaker 4: generally just not particularly well informed voting, you know, public.

1506
01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:16,360
Speaker 4: And that's where I think we have an opportunity here

1507
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:19,200
Speaker 4: and what I'm attempting to do by again writing about

1508
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:21,479
Speaker 4: it for something like The New York Times magazine, because

1509
01:28:21,479 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 4: that's going to reach a readership that otherwise really wouldn't

1510
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:29,640
Speaker 4: get a well laid out, you know, clarification on what

1511
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:32,479
Speaker 4: the actual stakes are if you go down this.

1512
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 5: World may not be layered in the mailbox with Bugle

1513
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:37,559
Speaker 5: and bu exactly exactly.

1514
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:39,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, let's not calves. I mean to

1515
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 4: a degree. I mean this is, you know, sort of

1516
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 4: preaching to the converted right, and I'm glad we have

1517
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 4: the opportunity to do that because you probably knew as

1518
01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:49,800
Speaker 4: many people in the Zoula back in the day that

1519
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 4: I did. Who you know, they go there and they

1520
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 4: you know, enroll in the environmental studies program or whatever,

1521
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:57,880
Speaker 4: and before you know it, they're interested in ungulate hunting.

1522
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:00,360
Speaker 4: But they still just can't wrap their heads around you know,

1523
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:02,840
Speaker 4: predator hunting while you know, lion hunting, bear hunting. And

1524
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:06,520
Speaker 4: I remember having this argument with people in the late nineties,

1525
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:10,880
Speaker 4: you know, after having watched what happened around northern California

1526
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:14,000
Speaker 4: even in that era with the increased lion presence once

1527
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:20,599
Speaker 4: they prohibited hound pursuit from houndsman. So this has been

1528
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:22,720
Speaker 4: a long time coming. It's been a very long road.

1529
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:27,160
Speaker 4: It just happened to strangely land in this family.

1530
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, how long is the article you're working on gonna be?

1531
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:34,040
Speaker 4: I pitched it as five to seven thousand words and

1532
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 4: they came back at four thousand words. But I have

1533
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:39,479
Speaker 4: a feeling that that might wind up being kind of

1534
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:42,160
Speaker 4: elastic once I get into it, because there are so

1535
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:45,040
Speaker 4: many different layers of complexity to this.

1536
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 1: Well, that's a lot of complexity. Yeah, that's good chunk.

1537
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 1: That's good chunk of writing.

1538
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:50,479
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

1539
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 1: And people, uh, people will find it the New York

1540
01:29:55,560 --> 01:29:57,280
Speaker 1: Times magazine.

1541
01:29:56,920 --> 01:30:01,160
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, it's the magazine that's put it. It's somewhat independent,

1542
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 4: as I understand it, from the actual print newspaper, but

1543
01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 4: you know it's a yeah, it's on a par with

1544
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:10,080
Speaker 4: you know, Harper's or The Atlantic or The New York

1545
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 4: or whatever. It's kind of that type of you know,

1546
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 4: high toned think piece sort of.

1547
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:20,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. So well, the Brooks family, thank you, man. I

1548
01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:23,960
Speaker 1: appreciate you coming on to talk about this.

1549
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 2: Thanks for having us.

1550
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:30,360
Speaker 1: A tragedy and I think an important issue for people

1551
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:34,680
Speaker 1: who are interested in and wildlife and natural resources in

1552
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:40,640
Speaker 1: America and how those questions and policies we make have

1553
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 1: ways of coming around and impact and people's lives and

1554
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:46,720
Speaker 1: and and thinking through decisions we make in a way

1555
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:50,560
Speaker 1: that gives us the ability to stay fluid and adaptive.

1556
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:53,519
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you coming on, man. Yeah, thanks, thank you.

1557
01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:55,080
Speaker 1: What Yeah, thank you appreciate it.

1558
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 4: Buddy, Thank you, Steve. Really yeah, I really appreciate what

1559
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 4: you're doing, appreciate the opportunity, and I knew that this

1560
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,560
Speaker 4: would be a terrific way for Wyatt to tell his

1561
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:08,599
Speaker 4: story to a community that cares about him.

1562
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:16,560
Speaker 1: Oh, definitely, thank you man. Yep h