WEBVTT - Why are assassinations on the rise? 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.240 I'm Anny, I'm Noah, this is Devin, and this is 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.960 no such thing. The show where we settle our dumb 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:10.440 arguments and yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.280 we're talking about the resurgence of assassinations. We'll talk about 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.800 the Luigi Mangeoni case, and we'll interview a professor from 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.920 the University of Chicago who's been studying political violence for decades. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:31.000 There's no no such thing, no such thing, such, thank. 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:33.960 Such, thank. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:36.800 You. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.160 All Right, quick note that this is what the three 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:46.159 of us are deeming to be an emergency episode based 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.760 on what's happening in the news, and for that reason, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.320 it's not going to be structured like a normal episode 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.920 of no such thing. We're talking about the rise of 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:02.360 political violence, right. We have big newsworthy examples like January sixth, obviously, 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:07.759 the attack on Paul Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi's husband, the two 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:12.120 different Trump assassination attempts, and all that kind of leads 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:17.120 us to this case where this guy, Luigi Mangioni allegedly 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:22.520 assassinated the CEO of United Healthcare. People suspect that this 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.440 had to do with like frustrations with the healthcare industry, 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:28.640 but what the three of us are trying to figure 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.280 out is why all of this political violence seems to 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.440 be on the rise. And so, yeah, I think it's 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.279 a fair question, like is political violence on the rise? 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.200 And you know, why does it feel like this is happening. 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.000 It's interesting because we've gotten in many ways used to 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.800 mass shooting events, these sorts of things mm hm, and 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.080 this is obviously close to that, but very different, and 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.520 I think that's why you do see more sympathy for 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.960 the cause. Yeah, perhaps where it's not just random killing 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.760 of normal citizens, it is targeted in this specific way. Yeah, 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.240 which does make more of a statement. I'm curious to 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.840 hear why we are seeing arise in that. Yeah, it 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.760 was interesting, like this kind of violence like when it 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:18.800 has a motivation, and when the motivation of the violence 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.200 is like something that a lot of people can agree with, 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.880 like obviously not the killing itself, but when the cause, 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.760 so to speak, has this sentiment that's against the way 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.680 that like healthcare runs in this country. You know, we 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:37.600 did see like a very layered, very interesting reaction to this. 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.880 Just antidotally. What I've noticed is that people feel more 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.000 disconnected from the system in a way you just taught 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.280 this with like low turnout during the election yea amongst 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.200 young people, and I think few people I think are 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.520 over going through the means of the system to see results. 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.920 And now I think, you know, we don't exactly know, 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.799 like you're saying, there's this suppose in manifesto, we don't 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.480 exactly know what the motive was here. Yeah, but I 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.160 have seen people respond in a way that suggests that 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.480 they are open to people finding creative ways around the system. 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:18.840 This seek change, you. 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.880 Know, not to perpetuate my reputation as a Bernie bro 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.639 but like I think he and Elizabeth Warren had kind 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.079 of the quote unquote correct take on this thing, which 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.600 is to immediately like condemn the shooting, but then try 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.440 and figure out why this is happening. We you know, 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.040 we don't know shit about this. So we are after 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.720 the break, we are going to talk to Robert Pape, 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.960 who is a professor at the University of Chicago and 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:48.000 he's been studying political violence for decades. So let's just 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:57.760 talk to him. Hello, Professor Pape, thank you for doing this. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:00.960 Can you just start by telling us who you are. 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.040 My name is Robert Pape. I'm a professor of Political 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:08.600 Science and director of the University of Chicago Project on 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.600 Security and Threats. I study political violence. I've been studying 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:17.400 political violence for thirty years. For the last four years 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.640 I have studied American political violence rather extensively. Obviously, I've 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.080 got a lot of things to say, you know, I've 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.080 done a bunch of things on this in the last week, 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.960 and I'm going to be studying political violence here in 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.880 America it looks like easily the next five years. 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.120 Let's just start there. I think like you've mentioned that 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.320 there is this trend, and it's an upward trend, and 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.000 you don't think it's going anywhere. Can you just walk 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:46.400 us through what exactly that trend is, how you measure it, 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:52.640 and where you think it's going to take us. 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.000 The way you measure political violence in the United States 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.800 or in Iraq or Afghanistan anywhere around the world is 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.960 really pretty much the same. What Political violences are acts 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.520 of violence that are meant to send a political message 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.560 or have an impact on society as a whole, or 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.560 to change the behavior of an actor, whether it's a 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:22.440 government of corporation in any particular in any particular direction. 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.919 So whether you want to defund the police, whether you 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:30.320 want to get the university administration to stop supporting Israel, 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.640 whether you're trying to stop an election that is the 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:37.800 transfer of power. These are just some of the examples 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:43.279 that all fit under the hood of political violence. Now, 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.599 starting about five or six years ago, we started to 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:53.320 see an unbelievably noticeable trend upwards in lone wolf political 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:57.360 violent attacks. Obviously, the CEO murder fits a lone wolf factor. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.000 So in twenty eighteen we saw the Tree of Life 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:01.159 Life shooting. 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.440 A tragic day in the city of Pittsburgh, a mass 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:07.520 shooting apparently driven by hate at a synagogue in Squirrel Hill. 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.599 At this hour, eleven people are confirmed dead, six more injured, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:13.800 including four Pittsburgh Police officers. 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.400 What you had was you had a lone wolf attacker. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.240 And then he left a manifesto, and his manifesto was 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.440 all about what's called the Great Replacement, which is this 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:28.240 idea that whites are being deliberately replaced. Then in August 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:32.480 twenty nineteen, we saw another mash shooting, this time at 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.800 a Walmart in Al Paso, killing over twenty Hispanics. And 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.520 this too, he left a manifesto about the Great replacement 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:45.520 really the identical political theory, this time blaming the issue 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:50.120 of the Hispanics in this complex political conspiracy theory. And 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.240 then we saw in May twenty twenty two the Buffalo shooting, 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:58.920 where again you have an attacker. He's killing approximately ten 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:04.120 innocent African America just standing in line at a top supermarket. Here. 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.239 They've done nothing to him. He doesn't know them from Adam. 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.640 And he too leaves a manifesto, this one hundred and 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.920 sixty pages long. So these are clearly acts of also 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.880 about the Great Replacement. What those three attacks have in 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:22.720 common is those shooters we're trying to advance the agenda, 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:28.160 a political agenda against what's called the Great Replacement. This 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.080 is a right wing conspiracy theory that's been around for years. 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.080 What Joe Biden is doing now will change this country forever. 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.280 So again, why is he doing it? There's only one 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.880 plausible answer. You're not allowed to say it out loud. 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.720 In political terms, this policy is called the Great Replacement, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.440 the replacement of legacy Americans with more obedient people from 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:47.360 far away countries. 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:52.640 But in these cases, these shooters are leaving manifestos articulating 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:56.840 this political agenda and that's why when I saw the 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:01.960 writing on the shellcasings of the CEO killing. 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.720 CBS News has confirmed from law enforcement officials that the 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.800 words deny, defend, and depose we're written on shellcasings at 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.160 the scene. Investigators are now looking into if those words 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.520 point to a motive related to insurance companies' responses to claims. 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:23.480 Right away, the clear signs of a politically motivated attack, 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:28.760 even if there was somehow an additional personal motive involved. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.640 And the more we've found out, there appears to be 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.240 no beef that this guy had with the actual healthcare 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.240 insurance company itself. We're finding like virtually no connection at all. 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.560 It appears to be almost one hundred percent politically motivated, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.640 and that is really a common thing. You often get, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.480 these mixed motives, you see what I mean, So people 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.160 are sometimes saying, well, is that only one hundred percent 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:59.240 politically driven. Often what you find are volatile individuals. They 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.360 have their own reasons for being on the edge of violence, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.679 for their own psycho social reasons. Many of them are 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.160 mentally ill. But then you have this political motive layered 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:14.840 on top and their belief that their act will become popular. 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.640 That often nudges them over the edge. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:20.839 So we've been thinking about this obviously a lot over 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:22.800 the last couple of days, but I don't think those 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.640 two examples came up for us at all during our conversations. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.000 I guess in our minds we hadn't been thinking about 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:33.200 mass shootings as fitting into this larger conversation about political violence. 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.199 Yeah, and the fact that people who are anxious about 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.640 this great replacement theory end up being the primary source 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:40.679 of political violence. 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:45.959 Professor, We've been asking why there's been this general increase 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.839 in political violence. Is the answer to that question as 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.360 simple as the demographic shifts that have been happening around 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.160 the world, or is there more to it? 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.880 I would say the big tap route is the demographic shift. 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:04.079 We are going through a historic transition in our country 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:10.160 from a white majority democracy to a white minority, truly balanced, 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.720 multiracial democracy. This helps to explain a lot of the 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.960 virulent reaction to Donald Trump. 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.400 You know, when they let I think the real numbers, 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.000 fifteen sixteen million people into our country. 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.000 When they do that, we got a lot of work 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:25.319 to do. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:28.480 They're poisoning the blood of our country. 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:29.320 That's what they've done. 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.000 Because you have folks who are really on the let's 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.000 call them on the right, who are very nervous about 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.680 this transition that's about to happen, and they would like 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.280 it to be more managed or more carefully done and 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:47.720 slow down. That's where this general nervousness is from. Where 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.480 are they going to come out in this transition? And 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:57.080 then the others polarization, social media, Trump's character in his 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:00.280 personal style of politics. I would say those are three 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:04.000 additional factors, but they're like secondary. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.400 So you've been walking us through the general rise in 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.080 political violence over the years and how it's tied to 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.280 the great replacement conspiracy theory and that there is demographic 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.280 change happening all over the world. But the conspiracy part 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:30.400 is that it's being done deliberately to wipe out white populations. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.760 And then you get these lone wolf characters who are 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.360 radicalized by this and they end up being the source 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.920 of political violence. In the past few years, but we've 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:44.160 been really interested in assassinations, specifically political violence that is 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:49.200 targeted towards a specific person, like this healthcare CEO. Have 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.760 you been tracking assassinations? Are those on the rise as well? 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:02.880 So in twenty twenty two, we saw not just that 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:04.560 plot against Justice Cavanaugh. 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:06.959 A man who fully say planned to kill Supreme Court 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.160 Justice Brett Kavanaugh is charged with attempted murder this morning. 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.800 And then also in October twenty twenty two, we saw 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.720 the assassination attempt against Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.400 which missed her but almost killed her her husband. 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:24.400 House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office says that someone broke into 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.320 her home in San Francisco this morning and violently attacked 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:29.080 her husband. 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.200 Then in the next summer of June twenty twenty three, 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.679 there was an assailant trying to live stream and attack 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.000 against Barack Obama's home. 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.160 A man who Polisse was armed with explosives is arrested 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.920 outside the Washington, d C. Home of former President Barack Obama. 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.120 And then of course we've seen the two assassination attempts 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.679 against Donald Trump, and there is a whole spate of 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:59.280 attacks against congressional leaders that collection right there, just that 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.400 number that I identified. You have to go back to 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.319 nineteen sixty eight. You have to go back to that 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.040 year which saw the assassination of Martin Luther King. 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.840 Some very sad news for all of you, and I 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:17.640 think sad news for all of our fellow citizens and 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.720 people who love peace all over the world, and that 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.320 is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:26.280 tonight in Efica. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.520 Then just a few months later you had the assassination 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:37.640 of Robert F. Kennedy, who was then the leading contender 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:42.640 for the Democratic presidential nomination when he was assassinated. If 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.200 you just focus just on that issue of assassinations, you 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.720 can see right away that we're at a historical high. 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:55.760 We are on a slippery slope of normalization of violence 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.400 in our country. I call this the era of violent 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.000 popular What we find in our surveys is that between 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.959 five ten percent of Americans sometimes even fifteen will support 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.840 political violence for grievances. Political grievances they also endorse. And 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:17.120 that's thirty million people. That's a lot of people. So 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.280 I'm not at all surprised by what happened with the 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.160 CEO here. What happened is is you guys all probably 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.240 know if you go to his ex account before he 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.640 was arrested at that McDonald's, he literally had only sixty 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:38.120 seven six seven followers on his x account. Within twelve hours, 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.880 it was four hundred thousand four hundred thousand. Now there 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:44.880 are folk songs for this guy. 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.720 For now a Manngioni's locked in a cell nearly identical 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:48.360 to this one. 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.560 His supporters are donating tens of thousands of dollars to 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.360 online legal defense funds. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.240 So why is that based on your research, why is 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.440 there such strong support for this specific assecent destination. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.720 Well, I think it's been strong because at the tap 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.120 root of this political violence is anger. The one third 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:19.200 of this healthcare company's claims are denied, approximately one third. 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:20.560 That is outrageous. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.120 It's more than double the industry. 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:27.480 Standard political anger. And that anger is real, and you 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:33.000 can't talk people out of their anger. So our strategy 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.560 has been not to try to talk people out of 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.760 their anger. What we think you can do is help 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:45.800 them redirect their anger away from violence and toward politics. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.440 I don't think talking people out of their anger is 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:54.640 the right strategy. What the strategy should be is to 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.520 have them redirect that anger, which a lot of times 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.560 is based on reality. I'm not denying that, okay, I'm 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.840 telling you that's real. So you don't try to talk 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.600 people out of this anger, because if you do, you're 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.160 just gonna make them more defiant. That's just the way 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.000 it is. If I try to talk you out of 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.240 something you're mad about, you're going to dig in. Okay, 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.480 So no, that's not the idea. The idea is how 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.280 can I encourage you to make it more productive so 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.720 that you'll actually have a way to change the system 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.200 in a productive way. Because you see, if the anger 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.440 just leads to this political violence, the system may end 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:35.600 up getting burned down. But a lot of times what 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.680 comes in, and we see this in revolutions is something 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:43.200 dramatically draconianly what right wing. I mean, much worse than 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.200 Donald Trump. You think Donald Trump's bad? Nothing like the 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:50.040 Ayatola Halmoni in nineteen seventy nine that started out as 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.560 a liberal revolution against the shaw of Iran and then 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:58.800 it became seized and taken over by unbelievable hardliners. That's 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.360 the real trajectory these when you get real violence. 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:07.280 Like this, professor, you have warned us of a future 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:12.400 that is bleaked, to say the least, But is there 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.240 a way to avoid it? Like what can we do 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:20.520 as a society that would result in a decrease in 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:21.640 political violence. 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.200 It's important in this case to recognize even more than 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:31.040 in the others here, that anger, that anger needs to 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.040 have some place to go. And that's what I'm trying 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.720 to say in different ways in my writings in the media, 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.959 on the podcast, and I really think we will ultimately 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.560 have a softer, a medium, soft landing here in twenty 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.200 thirty five. But I think we need to realize this 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.560 isn't just gonna happen on its own. But I do 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:55.520 I'm not really pessimistic, really, I'm realistic about the challenges 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.600 we face, and I actually think we will come out 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.960 of this because I really believe when I'm encouraging these 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:07.200 the politicians to do, it's really directly in their interests here. 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.600 I've been studying this for a long time, and I'm 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.760 articulating a strategy many of them have never heard of before. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:15.920 They've all been told, well, you just want to talk 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.240 the violent person out of it. I'm not telling you 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.239 that's the way to go that. I'm telling you that 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.359 is a pretty much a dead end. You've got to 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.720 focus on the part of the public that's already upho 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.240 its political violence and move them and their anger, which 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:38.440 many of them have, in this more productive direction. Now 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.720 we can actually solve some of these problems as opposed 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.360 to we're going to get violent about it and that's 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:46.400 not going to solve anything. 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:46.840 Folks. 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.879 This has been completely fascinating and illuminating. Thank you so 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:53.480 much for joining us. 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.680 I love this conversation. I just really appreciate how much 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.400 you folks really are looking to have a different kind 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.879 of conversation about this. It really speaks you know, this 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:06.320 is one of the reasons we're going to have that 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:07.040 soft landing. 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:19.520 So that was illuminating. I do understand a little bit better, 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.520 not just the rise in political violence, but also just 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:28.119 generally why it's been happening and response. Yeah, response to 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.639 it as well. Quick note to the listener, thank you 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.119 for listening to this episode. I know it's not the 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.800 normal kind of episode of No Such Thing. Let us 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:37.439 know how you feel about it, if we should be 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:38.480 doing things like this. 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:43.400 More reactions to the news in our future question mark, but. 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:48.159 Yeah, thanks for listening. No Such Thing is produced by Manny, 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.959 Noah and Devin. The theme song was by me Manny. 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.520 Thank you to our guest, Robert Page, professor at the 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:59.479 University of Chicago. For more, be sure to subscribe to 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.960 No Such Dot Show and feel free to reach out 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:09.080 to us at Manny noahdevinat gmail dot com. We're off 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.800 next week for Christmas, but we'll be back in two weeks. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:13.560 See then,