WEBVTT - Can We Make This Place Beautiful? with Maggie Smith 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.240 One thing that would evaporate really quickly would be what 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:05.080 does not kill you makes you stronger? 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:05.920 Right? 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:08.200 Woof gone? 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.000 Right? Because what if what does not kill you actually 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.400 causes you a lot of pain and anxiety and you 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.440 have to carry that around and find ways to endure it. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.640 This is it's okay that you're not okay? And I'm 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.600 your host, Megan Divine. This week, how do we live 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.360 in a world that's at least half terrible? If you 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.800 recognize that line, you know the special treat we have 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:39.120 in store. My guest is poet Maggie Smith. Maggie is 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.159 the author of You Could Make This Place Beautiful and 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.760 the poem from which my opening line comes Good Bones. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.879 Today on the show, we're talking about writing and marriage 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.319 and divorce and why you did not need whatever has 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:54.880 happened to you in order to become who you're meant 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.640 to be, Settle in friends. All of that and more 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:08.520 coming up right after this first break. Before we get started, 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.240 one quick note. While we cover a lot of emotional 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.280 relational territory in our time here together, this show is 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:16.800 not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.520 health provider or for professional supervision related to your work. 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.320 Hey friends, I met Maggie Smith the same way millions 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.440 of other people did through her poem Good Bones. Now 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.640 you probably know this poem, but if you need a 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:38.119 reminder or a refresher, it begins Life is short. Though 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.240 I keep this from my children. Life is short, and 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.679 I've shortened mine in a thousand delicious ill advised ways, 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.480 A thousand deliciously ill advised ways I keep from my children. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.440 The world is at least fifty percent terrible, and that's 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:58.200 a conservative estimate. Though I keep this from my children. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.720 I bet you recognize that just from the opening lines. 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.800 Right in this episode, you're going to learn the backstory 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.120 to that poem, good Bones, and why, as Maggie says, 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:11.840 it's a barometer of the grief in the world, a 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.560 sign that something terrible has happened, like when that poem 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:18.120 goes viral again. And how weird it is to have 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:22.320 professional success based largely on something that broke your heart. 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.880 Maggie and I also discuss her new book, You Could 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.920 Make This Place Beautiful, which details the dissolution of her 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.520 marriage and the creation are really like the resurrection of 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.480 herself as a writer. We get into so many things 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.280 in this conversation that made my writer heart deliriously happy. 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:43.680 I was a fan of Maggie Smith before this conversation, 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.959 and she means so much more to me having had 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.760 this chance to connect. So I hope you love this 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.359 episode and love Maggie. Be sure to let me know 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.000 what you think. And speaking of letting me know what 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.320 you think, please leave a review of the show wherever 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.080 you get podcasts. I haven't seen any new reviews lately, 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.359 and that is one great way to tell me how 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:07.160 this season's guests are affecting you. All Right, on with 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:14.120 the show with the stellar Maggie Smith. Okay, So I 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.640 have been following you on social media and reading your 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.760 books and using lines of yours as starting places for 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.560 my own writing and also when I teach writing. So 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.880 I feel like I've known you for a long time, 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.480 even though we just met. So I'm just this is 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.720 my way of saying, I'm ridiculously happy to be here 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:33.040 with you today. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:34.000 Ah same. 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.520 I want to address something right off the bat because 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.680 it is one of my absolute favorite things about you. 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.880 I feel like ninety nine percent of memoir writing is 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.200 like finding beauty inside terrible times. 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:48.560 Like I grew so much as a person. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.000 It was difficult, but I love it and I hate 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.720 that stuff. I kind of knew this before I started 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.520 reading You could make this Place beautiful, But I as 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:00.600 I was reading it in a coffee shop, I actually 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.360 yelled various things, various variations of like Amon's sister Yea, 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.800 absolutely out loud so many times in crowded coffee shops. 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.200 When you write your personal story, it does not have 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:14.960 to be about being worth it. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:21.159 Yeah, I think we have a sort of cultural obsession 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.880 with before and after, like like the before and after 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.120 photo of the made over kitchen, the before and after 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:33.640 images of the haircut, the before and after really of anything, 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.000 and same with same with storytelling. Right, It's like before 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.080 I was this, and then I figured it all out, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.039 and after I was this. And so I feel like 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.880 the traditional narrative expectation of a memoir that that you 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.039 write out of a painful crisis in your life would 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.640 be like I was a caterpillar and then I wrote 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.840 this book and figured myself out, and then I emerged 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.800 at the end of the book Butterfly. But I am 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:06.479 still a caterpillar. I am just a more fully realized, 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:11.599 more self aware, more whole and boundaried caterpillar. 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:13.040 Yeah. 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:13.599 Yeah. 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:17.040 One of the most popular memes on my own social 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.960 is like this picture of a chrysalis and it's like, 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.560 you know, standing outside the chrysalis shouting you're a butterfly 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.279 does not hasten anything. It just pisses off the goo 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:26.080 or something like that. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.800 Oh yeah, because it's actually liquefied and so yeah, so 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.960 maybe I'm actually just the goo at this point. But 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.080 I do think we put a lot of pressure on 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:40.160 ourselves to metabolize experience in a way that makes us 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:45.960 quote better, as if just surviving it is not enough. 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.760 Yeah, there's that second half of the sentence of you 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.600 needed this because who you were before this happened wasn't 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:53.080 good enough. 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:58.000 Oh gosh, you needed this. That is just that's really something, 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.640 isn't it. I Mean I write about in the book 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:05.640 the sort of idea of material, and I have had 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.520 this said to me. I have friends who have written 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.240 about pretty traumatic things who have had this said to them, 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.159 which is, at least you got a book out of it, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.839 or at least this experience wasn't wasted on someone who 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.960 isn't a writer, an artist, a filmmaker. You know, whatever 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:27.240 you do that you make things from your experience. And 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.839 I've been thinking a lot about that and how well 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.919 meaning I think that statement is, but also how offensive. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:38.640 I find that offensive. 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.880 And I was thinking about it recently and thinking, actually, 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:46.520 I don't think of myself as I didn't get a 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:52.000 book out of my life imploding. I made a book 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.120 out of my life imploding. And it's a very just 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:59.279 pretty subtle verb shift there, but it feels a whole 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.240 lot like a verb shift I find helpful, which is, 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.600 oh gosh, my life imploded. Now I have to reimagine it. 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:12.320 I have to rebuild it, as opposed to oh my gosh, 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.840 my life imploded. Now I get to reimagine it. I 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:21.080 get to do something different, not that I wanted to, 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.840 but sometimes reframing it that way from myself is helpful. 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:30.160 If I see the like little hidden gifts inside the disaster, 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:35.240 it doesn't make the disaster worth it necessarily, you know, don't. 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.800 I don't think I needed this. I certainly didn't need 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.280 it as writing material. I could have written a book 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:40.920 about anything. 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:42.040 You know. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.760 My kids didn't need this. None of us needed this. 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:49.120 We are not better or stronger because of it, not 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:51.040 in any way that makes it worth it. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:55.120 No, this need to put a value, judgment, a transactional 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:59.280 value on what you do with what happens, right, Like, 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.840 I love that you wrote what did I not get 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.520 to write? Because this was what was mine to write. 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.640 I love that Like literally the night of my partner's funeral, 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.040 more than one person came up to me and said, 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.400 this is going to make you such a better therapist. 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.800 You're going to get to write. And also like I'm. 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:19.400 Angry on your behalf. 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.840 Thank you, thank you. So I got the like because 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.440 I was a writer before he died, and because I 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.040 was a therapist before he died, like those twin things 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:30.840 of this is going to make you so much better. 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:32.640 You're going to be such a gift to the world. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.440 And I feel like you know this is this is 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:40.959 related territory that you write so evocatively and so beautifully. 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.600 But what did you not get to write? Because this 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.560 was yours to write? And I just like, I love 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.160 that so much. You also said you mentioned your kids 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.160 in here, and you said I would rather they not 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.160 learn to be so resilient. I would rather they learn 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.439 more about security and safety and be a little less resilient. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:03.360 Yeah, I don't want resilient children. If resilience is what 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.920 we call it when we put kids through things, yeah, 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.440 or you know, because of the laws in this country 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:13.199 refuse to protect them adequately, and then we're supposed to 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.640 pat ourselves on the back because our kids are so 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.640 strong out of just sheer necessity. 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:20.480 That's not a gift. 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.719 I mean that resilience and it's not like that resilience 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.280 narrative is like what we push on everybody who is 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.920 experiencing something they should not be experiencing. But instead of 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.320 looking at that, I mean, right now, I'm thinking about 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.160 the black maternal health crisis, right and like how much 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.520 we raise black women for being resilient instead of dealing 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.840 with the fact that our systems put them in harm's 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.640 way for which they need to become more resilient so 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.960 it doesn't crush them. Like this whole resilience thing. I 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.920 was talking with a guest earlier this season about what 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:56.840 we applaud as resilience is actually the imprint of trauma. 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:57.680 Oh that's real. 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.880 Actually, my daughter said, you know when and she's fourteen, 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.280 and she said, you know, when people say kids are 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:08.360 old souls, it's because they've experienced trauma and I thought 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.800 that's right, Like when you have to grow up fast, 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.440 it's not a compliment that you can talk like an 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.280 adult or function like an adult. It's not a compliment 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.200 if you are eight and helping to raise your three 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:30.680 younger siblings because this country has no real support, especially 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:35.160 for single parents, but for working people period. Like, that's 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.000 not that's not a gift, that that's trauma. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.320 Yeah, I wonder what would be different if we framed 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.880 it as that, Like how many words of support or 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.720 platitudes or condolences, Like how many of those phrases would 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:56.880 just evaporate if we understood that what we are celebrating 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.280 the things you create because this happened to you. What 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.640 a gift was hidden in that pain? Like if we 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:09.160 understood the mechanism that was actually happening, Like so so 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:13.760 much of our our ideas, our vocabulary around caring for 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.640 each other would disappear in favor of something else. 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.959 Yeah, one thing that would evaporate really quickly would be 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:21.720 what does. 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.119 Not kill you makes you stronger? 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:23.960 Right? 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.360 Woof gone? 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.000 Right? Because what if what does not kill you actually 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.440 causes you a lot of pain and anxiety and you 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.440 have to carry that around and find ways to endure it. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.480 I think you're absolutely right about that, So that whole 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.880 we get impacted by the things that happen to us, 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.560 right like that which does not kill you makes you 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:53.720 stronger is such biological, relational, mental, emotional trash. But there's 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.800 a section in your book, and I'm totally going to 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:58.559 bring this back around, but there's a section in your 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:03.840 book about your miscarriage, and I think that section encapsulated 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.319 such a gorgeous example of what you just said about 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.840 what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. You talk about, 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.800 you know, being pregnant with your son, having lived through 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.200 two miscarriages previously, you can't un know what you know. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:26.480 Yeah, it completely colored my experience of being pregnant with 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.319 him because the entire time I just thought, at any minute, 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.600 this is going to end. It just gave me, and 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:38.040 it gave me not the kind of joyous, expectant, happy 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.720 pregnant experience I had with my daughter. It was a 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:49.320 very anxiety filled, cortisol soaked pregnancy experience because I just 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.440 kept waiting for the other shoe to drop until the 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:53.559 very very end. 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:55.160 And that changes you. 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.600 Yeah, we get changed by the things we experience, And 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.240 I think in this culture, we don't think we should 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.800 get changed by the things we experience unless the only 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.880 the only change that's acceptable is like stronger, bigger, better 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.400 than right, like this whole positive trajectory, which is just 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.200 not what life is. 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.439 Yeah, you know, trauma does not give you a glow up. 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.440 That's that's the takeaway the tld R. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.400 Trauma does not give anyone. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.960 A glow up. I love that. That's perfect. I feel 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:30.840 like that should be tattooed somewhere or like. That is 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.679 a motivational that's a motivational thank you. That is a 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.200 motivational poster that I could get behind. Trauma does not 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:38.080 give you a glow up. 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:44.160 You feel free. I gift that to you. 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.760 Yeah, I mean if the lemons to the lemons to 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.160 lemonade thing. You know, when I wrote keep Moving, someone 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.280 really in a well meaning complimentary way, said, wow, you 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.160 really took those lemons and made lemonade. And then I 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.520 think she said and then added m F vodka to it, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:00.319 And I. 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.080 Laughed because I knew what she meant. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.800 Yeah right, I knew what she meant, Like she's she 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.480 meant you took straw and spun it into gold. You 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:13.320 took something terrible and made it into something that helped 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:17.000 you and your kids during a possible time. And yes, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.520 I mean that is true, like there's there's no lie there. 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.880 That is absolutely true. But the other thing that is 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.320 true is that I didn't want that lemonade. 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:27.240 I could have had some other drink. 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.560 Right, we go back to that what did you not 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:31.440 get to live? Because this is what you had to 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.440 live and the fact that you are a writer like 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.000 writers have to write. Yeah, right, Like, this is how 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.920 we understand the world. This is how we metabolize what happens. 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:45.320 This is how we understand things. So it's not that 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:49.120 you get to write this because of what you lived. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.880 It's that I am living this and words are how 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.160 I know to consume it or to be in it. 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.920 I'm speaking of words like I like word a phase 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.640 right there? But yeah, does that feel accurate? 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:03.200 Yeah? 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:03.680 It does. 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.080 I mean I don't often know what I think or 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:11.040 feel clearly until I've written it down and then I'm like, oh, 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:15.640 that's what it is. Somehow my processing really works through 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.120 my right hand and my pen onto paper, which makes 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.080 this a challenge. Right, I have I'm thinking on the 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.400 fly here, I'm I'm not writing, but yeah, I don't. 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.600 I don't often know how I feel about something. And 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:33.120 for me, this particular book felt like a large armoire 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.600 parked in front of a doorway. And it's not so 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.160 much that I wanted to write this book. It was 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:43.400 the book I had to write so I could write 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.240 other books, almost like a clearing, you know, like I 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:53.640 had to move this giant piece of furniture away from 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.720 the doorway so I could go through it. And I 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.960 don't think I could have. I could have just busy 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:05.320 myself with other things while living the experiences that I 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.320 write about in this book without processing them on paper. 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:10.280 One of those things that I super love about you 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.160 is where I started write, like your work is not 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:19.360 the typical transformation narrative right where I learned some lessons 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.720 I grew as a person. Everything's good now I can 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:23.360 look back and say thank you to it and be 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:30.320 grateful for like all of that stuff, the power in 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.440 your work, in your stories, in the ways that you 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.680 speak about your life. For me, one of the one 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.840 of the big things is that you don't make lemonade 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.960 is that you're able to traverse that both and yes 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.720 and territory that people try to rush out of so quickly, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:49.920 or insist that we rush out of so quickly, Like 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.640 that both of these things can be true. That I 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.920 am so thankful for my family, for the person I am, 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.360 for the words that I say, and none of this 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.040 is awesome, Like this isn't anything that I wanted. We 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.080 just spent a whole bunch of time talking about, Like 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.959 this is not a transformation story. This is not a 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.000 thank you letter to my pain for teaching me who 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.240 I really wanted to be. Like all of this stuff, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:21.399 And at the very same time, there's something very cool 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.040 about seeing the impact of your words and your story 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:27.959 and the way that you tell it, seeing the impact 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.439 on the world. So I want to take a scene 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.720 from your new book, if I might, where you describe 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.960 watching a character on Madame Secretary read your poem good Bones. 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.080 I know you know what I'm talking about here, But 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.639 you knew your poem would be in there, but you 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.280 didn't know how or where. But what you expected was 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.440 really different from what happened. Can you tell me about that? 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:50.879 This is my favorite scene in the whole book. 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:57.480 Yeah, I thought, because Good Bones traveled really via internet, right, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.199 I mean, it was something that went viral online, So 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.000 all I knew was that it. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:03.240 Was going to be in the episode. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.639 I had no idea who would say it. I didn't 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.159 know how it would appear. And I think part of 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.879 me expected, first of all, a woman to be sharing it, 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.560 because it is a poem spoken by a mother's speaker. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.600 And I also expected it to be read off of 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.800 a phone or a computer screen, like oh, here, look 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:23.760 at this tweet or here's something that is someone sent 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:29.040 me on Facebook. And so in the scene, a male character, 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:34.240 the chief of staff, opens his wallet and pulls out 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.120 this piece of paper and at that time, I think 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.080 I'm watching it, and I'd had a little champagne. At 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.919 that point, I think I'm watching it, and I'm thinking, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.000 is this Wait? Is this the scene? Every time someone moves, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:48.000 I'm thinking, is this it? 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.800 Is this it? And he pulls this piece of. 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.160 Paper out of his wallet and unfolds it and says 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.159 something like, you know, this reminds me of this poem 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.359 by Maggie Smith called good Bones, and he reads the 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:04.800 poem from this piece of paper from his wallet, and it, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.479 I mean, I just balked. I just absolutely cried, because 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.520 first of all, it was a man, which I did 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.320 not see coming. Second of all, it was something that 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.280 was not living on a screen. It was something he'd 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:23.200 thought to print and cut small and carry with him, 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.679 you know, like a little talisman, the way I carry 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.080 things that mean, you know, like a little note from 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.160 my son, or an acorn he might find, or something 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:38.240 that was so unexpected and so touching to me. I'm 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:39.199 still not over it. 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:44.560 Yeah, yeah, Like there is an intensity there of like 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.920 knowing that your words, like this little pocket of your 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:53.160 life is carried around so intimately, like that your words 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:59.080 make survival for someone. Can we talk about that, because man, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:00.840 it's intense. 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:02.720 It is intense. 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.040 I have such a strange relationship with that poem. 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:08.040 In general. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:14.960 It's kind of a disaster barometer, kind of a grief barometer. 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:16.000 Really. 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.679 It's like the grief bat signal on the Internet, where 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:24.720 if my social media mentions ramp up really high, there's 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.320 a good chance something bad has happened in the world 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:32.919 because people are sharing my work as it's sort of 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.040 like a sense of community or solace or comfort or 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:41.120 hope or here we are again, particularly if it's that poem. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:47.960 And so for years, every time people shared that, I 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.480 would get this sort of pit in my stomach and 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.200 immediately go to some news network to find out what 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:57.040 it happened. Whereas if I had written a poem that 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.399 was celebrated and shared widely when babies were born or 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.600 people got married, or you know, it would have given 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.400 me a different feeling when I saw it being shared widely. 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:12.120 But when a piece of work that you've made is shared, 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:18.159 you know, after every school shooting, it's hard to be 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:26.800 happy about expanding your readership via your own nation's refusal 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:31.320 to enact gun control, for example. And then now for 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.280 people who have read the memoir, you know that palm 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:39.000 also had an impact on my marriage because my career 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.639 sort of like overnight, my readership just became much wider, 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.720 and I was asked to travel and do more things 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.159 in a really unexpected way, not in the way that 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.440 you would be able to plan for tenure, or plan 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.280 for a promotion, or you know, even plan for a 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.159 second child. You know, there are things that we can 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.720 plan for in our lives when we know a big 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.560 che is coming, and a poem going viral overnight is 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.200 not one of them. And the growing pains from that 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:11.200 had a big impact on my life. So I've had 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.879 a weird relationship with that poem for a long time, 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.280 and I guess my hope with the memoir is that 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:21.680 there might be people because the title you could Make 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:24.959 This Place Beautiful is from the poem, there might be 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:29.200 people who find the poem via this book and have 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:33.600 a completely different relationship with it that has nothing to 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:39.800 do with grief in that way. In some ways, titling 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:43.160 the book the line from that poem was a kind 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:46.760 of reclamation for me because I am proud of the poem. 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.320 It's just a hard thing to sort of have traveling 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:54.640 in the world with my name on it. Given why it. 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.040 Travels, I had not thought of that. 0:22:57.960 --> 0:22:58.680 It's a blessing. 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:02.800