1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: for tuning in. We are coming to you live from 4 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: a kind of rainy, overcast day here in our fair 5 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia, and it reminds me of something. 6 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: Oh wait, and that's our super producer, mister Max Williams. Hello, 7 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: I am here, And that's mister Noel Brown. I to 8 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: him here, I'm Ben Bullen. I would say I'm about 9 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: eighty percent here, you guys. When I imagine Alcatraz, for 10 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: some reason in my head, it's always nighttime and there's 11 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: always a storm, even though I know that's not true. 12 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: So like a rainy day is a perfect Alcatraz day 13 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: for me, absolutely. 14 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, San Francisco is obviously a bit 15 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 2: north of the sunshiny, gleaming toaster vibes that is Los 16 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 2: Angeles and southern California, so it definitely has a bit 17 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: more of a haste to it. But when you get 18 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: out on that harbor, man and you hear the barkings 19 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 2: of the sea lions and the squawkings of the gulls, 20 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: and then off in the distance, just out of sight, 21 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 2: hiding behind the fog, you can almost see the erie 22 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: outline of Alcatraz Island. 23 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, when we put it that way, it 24 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: is exactly like when you discover a ruined castle in 25 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 1: a mountain and skyrim. You know, you get closer, there's 26 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: the reveal, and then you get the notification. This for 27 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: a lot of us, I think, especially Americans or fans 28 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: of film, we're familiar with this strange place via the 29 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: world of cinema. As we'll earn, Alcatraz is still very 30 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: much a thing around that you could visit. But I 31 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: always think of Alcatraz in films like The Birdman of 32 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: Alcatraz and of course The Rock. 33 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, The Rock is obviously kind of for 34 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: our generation, probably the most flagship Alcatraz film, but it 35 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: definitely looms large in cinema history. You've got Escape from 36 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: Alcatraz starring Clint Eastwood, which I've actually never seen, nor 37 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: have I seen The Birdman of Alcatraz. But The Rock, 38 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: you know, it's isn't it Michael Bay. That's a Michael 39 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 2: Bay film. 40 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: Right, it has to be. 41 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: It has to be, yeah, of course, I mean, you know, 42 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 2: Nicholas cage up to his Shenanigans. This time he's breaking 43 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: into an impenetrable prison, as opposed to breaking out with 44 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: the help of Shan Kong, who's the only man who's 45 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: ever escaped from Alcatrash. He does the good thing, doesn't he. 46 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 2: That's Sean Connery. I'm shot called got okay. 47 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: He's he's a retired Captain John Patrick Mason. And because 48 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: he refuses to do you know, other accents than his own, uh, 49 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: they just said, okay, this guy's also I six that 50 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: what a living right. 51 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: You're just so iconic on your own steam, just as 52 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: as you are in interviews that they don't even ask 53 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 2: you to do a different voice. They don't ask you 54 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: to put on a different careacter, whether you're King Richard 55 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: in the Bad robin Hood move Watch Out. 56 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: The first ten minutes of that are banging. 57 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: Completely agree. That also involves an escape from a prison. Yes, 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: it's only when Kevin Costner starts to speak that things 59 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: begin to go a bit south. 60 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you're thinking, what the field the dreams guy? 61 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: I don't remember the order in which those movies published, 62 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: but there is something It's a bit discursive, but there 63 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: is something to be said, I think about that, that 64 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: school of acting. It's very common in high level American actors. 65 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: They're never not them, right, it's al Pacino is the devil, 66 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: it's al Pacino as a football coach. But it's always. 67 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 2: Al that's true. But early al Pacino, like seventies, Like 68 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: I was actually thinking about another great prison movie, Dog 69 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: Day Afternoon, he does do a bit more character acting, 70 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: just once he starts becoming just larger than life al Pacino, 71 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,119 Speaker 2: that he just sort of lapses into his like old 72 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: man al Pacino phase, which I also enjoys a powerful 73 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: performance whatever he does. 74 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: He also, Yeah, not far for us to disparage these 75 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: icons of American acting in their own way. They're as 76 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: iconic as Alcatraz, their own personal alcatraz is. Alcatraz, I 77 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,239 Speaker 1: would argue, is more than a place. It's a symbol, 78 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: like this ruined castle of some sort. It's impenetrable, or 79 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: thought to be. So it represents larger than life prisoners. 80 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: You know, your capones, your birdmen, and of course it 81 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: represents injustice. 82 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: I love the notion of birdmen. There's as many, there's 83 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: so many. They come along with every few generations. 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: There's a flock of them. It's a recessive gene. Yeah, 85 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: the symbolism of Alcatraz is what launched today's story. Just 86 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: like a group of boats sailing through the bay under 87 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: the cover of night. This is our story that we 88 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: discovered in stuff they don't want you to know about. 89 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: How not once, but multiple times civilians got together to 90 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: invade Alcatraz to break into it, just like those guys 91 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: in the Rock. 92 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: Maybe not quite as impressive of a heist, but they 93 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: definitely landed on Alcatraz right, right, and then decided to 94 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: hang around for various reasons. 95 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe to set the stage here, we learn a 96 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: little bit more about Alcatraz itself, because it's both the 97 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: name of the island and the name of the former prison. 98 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: That's right, And I do believe it is still a 99 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: tourist destination in San Francisco. I don't think you can 100 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: any longer go into the prison, but you can take 101 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: a little pleasure cruise and a cruise by, and I 102 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: think maybe get off on the island. But when I 103 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 2: was a kid, you could go in. Unless I'm completely 104 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: having one of those false memories, I swear I remember 105 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: visiting Alcatraz as a kid. One point five miles off 106 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 2: the coast of San Francisco's Bay and of course San Francisco, California, 107 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: and taking a little bit of a tour and seeing 108 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: some kind of like you know, makeshift cells set up, 109 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: you know, like as they were back in the day, 110 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: sort of the way you can tour Ellis Island, you know, 111 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: in New York City. But I'm hoping that's not a 112 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: false memory. I do believe that it is no longer 113 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: the case where you can go inside. But the island 114 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: comprises twenty two acres of land, only twelve of those 115 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: acres would actually be considered usable land. 116 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting because it's such a it's such a 117 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: rocky place, right, it's very craggy. We'll get into the 118 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: the tours, but just just in case you are a 119 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: couple with very specific interest, I learned in the course 120 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: of researching Alcatraz that they do let you hold weddings there, 121 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: which seems like a very specific choice for a place 122 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: to get married. 123 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: You know, I mean, it seems like something some history 124 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: buffs would do, you know, Like I bet you people 125 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: get married at the Alamo from problem. Yeah, so let's 126 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 2: let's get married the site of a historical blood bath 127 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: that'd be cool, or a place where many people were 128 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: imprisoned and probably died. I bet Alcatraz is haunted a 129 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: f ben. 130 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised. There's definitely for people who believe 131 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: even ghosts. There's definitely a deep and troubled emotional record 132 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: there right, and deaths as well. But for a while, 133 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: Alcatraz didn't have this reputation. For most of history, it 134 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: was a home to seabirds more so than humans. And 135 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: when Lieutenant won Manuel de Ayala explored it in seventeen 136 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: seventy five, the guy looks around, he sees all these 137 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: birds on this pile of rocks out in the middle 138 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: of San Francisco Bay, and he says, you know what, 139 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this the Isle of the Pelicans. 140 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: Right. That's because that's about all that was going on, 141 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 2: probably a lot of bird poop on all those rocks. 142 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 2: And by the way, I believe what threw me was 143 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: when I was in San Francisco. It's been a minute, 144 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: a handful of years ago. Alcatraz Island, the prison part 145 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: of it was closed for renovations. Yes, kind of a 146 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 2: funny thing to think about. Let's let's have some renovations 147 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: of this prison. But it is maintained by the National 148 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: Park Service and as part of the Golden Gate National 149 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: Recreation Area, and you can take a tour of the 150 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: island accompanied by a helpful audio supplement that you can 151 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: listen to while walking through, which I tend to really 152 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: enjoy those, Ben I'm not sure about you. Sometimes it's 153 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: not the mood that I'm in. I kind of wanted 154 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: to experience the thing, but sometimes it's nice to get 155 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: a little extra push in your education. 156 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll get to the idea of visiting Alcatraz 157 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: at the end. But when you do it, folks, if 158 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: you do, we'd love to hear of your ventures. And 159 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: we want to be clear you're not going to be 160 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: doing the same thing as the heroes or protagonist of 161 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: our story today. If we go back to the history, 162 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: we see that in eighteen forty nine the island was 163 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: officially sold to the US government, and then later they 164 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: built actually California's first lighthouse on the island. And as 165 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: time went on, Uncle Sam builds other structures on the site, 166 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: and in eighteen fifty nine, same year we have the 167 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: construction of that lighthouse. We see the first permanent army 168 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: pres since garrison there, And we don't know exactly what happened, 169 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: but just a few years later the island became a 170 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: residence for military offenders. So maybe that first group of 171 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: army guys was just partying too hard and they turned 172 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: the island to a brig unclear. 173 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: I gotta wonder too though, because of its impenetrability, you know, 174 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 2: and the kind of imposing rock structures that surround the island, 175 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: I could see how it might seem on paper to 176 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: be a good potential spot for like a stronghold. Maybe 177 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 2: they just realized it wasn't quite as strategically valuable as 178 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: they may have thought, and that it would be better 179 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: served as a place to just, you know, have people 180 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: imprisoned where they could never escape, right to jump in here. 181 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 3: It's like, what are you protecting from from that way? Like, 182 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: is thisn't like the English Channel where the French are 183 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: coming across. 184 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: It's like it's really close off of the coast. So 185 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: I guess it could be just like a guard post 186 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: or something for a little bit of early responding, but 187 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: it's too close. It would almost be too late by 188 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: that point exactly. 189 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, if there were another adjacent country that was belligerent, 190 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: then it would make more sense. But for now, a 191 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: lighthouse is a good It was a good function for 192 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: it at the time, and so Alcatraz's main function over 193 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: time transformed into a penal colony, a prison. Our pals 194 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 1: of Britannica note that they started picking up non military prisoners, 195 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: hope Indians from the Arizona Territory who were just peacefully 196 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: resisting the government so protesters, nineteen of them get arrested. 197 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: And then American soldiers who were fighting in the Philippines 198 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: who would switched sides and sided with Filipino forces, they 199 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: got put in Alcatraz in nineteen hundred. In nineteen oh 200 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: seven they make it official and they say this is 201 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: the Pacific branch of the US military prison. 202 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 2: At this point, still just from military offenders right then, 203 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: but it would transition to being a federal prison. From 204 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty four to nineteen sixty three, it served as 205 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 2: just that and served as home to some of the 206 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: most notorious civilian I guess prisoners in American history, people 207 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: like machine Gun Kelly, not that one, not the rapper, 208 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: though he maybe should be imprisoned for philographs, humanity just joking, 209 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: but don't at me. Machine Gun Kelly. Yeah, I don't know. 210 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: He's yeah, he's back to rapping a little bit. He 211 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: did go through that kind of emo pop punk phase 212 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: or whatever that well, you know whatever. It's good for 213 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 2: people to enjoy things, so far, far be it from 214 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: me to yuck. Anyone's yum, but no George machine Gun Kelly, 215 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 2: the notorious gangster Robert Stroud, and of course, the titular 216 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 2: Birdman of Alcatraz, subject of the nineteen sixty two film 217 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: of the same name. My Alcatraz cinematic history has got 218 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: a lot of blind spots in it, Ben, I don't 219 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: know much about the Birdman of Alcatraz. What made him 220 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:01,479 Speaker 2: the Birdman? 221 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: The wings mainly? 222 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: Oh, so he was one of those guys like he 223 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: would climb up like buildings for show, Like, no, he 224 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: was half bird okay? Cool? Hey? So he was he 225 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 2: an attorney at law? 226 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: He was, yeah, but oddly enough, just real estate, not 227 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: bird law. Yeah. So he became known he was a murderer. 228 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: He definitely killed. He became known as Birdman because during 229 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: his time in Leavenworth he started rearing birds and selling 230 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: them and actually made a name for himself as an ornithologist. 231 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: Oh and so when he got incarcerated to Alcatraz in 232 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: nineteen forty two to nineteen fifty nine and they said, look, 233 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: we're not going to allow you to keep birds. So 234 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: that part of the story is kind of sad. 235 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: So is he is. He portrayed as sort of a 236 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 2: misunderstood gentle giant who loves all God's creatures despite his 237 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: checkered past in the film. 238 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: I'd have to rewatch the film, but I do know 239 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: he was a legitimate published ornithologist, like, he wrote books, 240 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: he made contributions to bird research. He earned the title Birdman. 241 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: I bet he really would have loved the game Wingspan. 242 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: He probably would have. Yeah, he might have had some 243 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: notes on it. But the thing that we're saying here 244 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: is each of these prisoners are probably their own story, 245 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: and maybe we'll revisit some in a future episode. But 246 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: this Alcatraz kind of kind of breaks our stereotypes of 247 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: a lot of American prisons because it wasn't overpopulated. It 248 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: was built to house four hundred and fifty convicts, but 249 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: at any one time there were no more than two 250 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty total there, and they part of the 251 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: There are a lot of factors for this, but it's 252 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: first off, it's already kind of a pain in the 253 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: butt to get to and from there, so they put 254 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: people there if they wanted to make it very difficult 255 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: for them to escape in a lot of situations. So, yeah, 256 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: you can get outside the prison walls, but then you 257 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: have to survive a mile and a half of San 258 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: Francisco Bay water, and that's an entirely different skill set. 259 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: There's a really cool little article on the FBI's website 260 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: FBI dot gov referring to Alcatraz as the ultimate maximum 261 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: security prison. And it was actually known nicknamed the Rock, 262 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: you know, like in the movie in nineteen thirty four. 263 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: By the way, it was part of this kind of 264 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: like new push for a war on crime and kind 265 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: of like you know, the idea of like snuffing out 266 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: all this organized crime. It was actually refortified at that point, 267 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: and like there is a lot of construction that took 268 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: place to make it the world's most secure prison. 269 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: And what to go back to the idea of trying 270 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: to escape a prison which is already tough but doable, 271 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: and having to swim or acquire a watercraft. 272 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: Right. 273 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: Because of these factors, we still do not know for 274 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: sure how many people successfully escaped or simply drowned in 275 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: their attempts, because the bay is big, right, and if 276 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: someone drowns, it can be really difficult to find their body. So, 277 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: like you said, like the FBI said, a top notch 278 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: mac security lock up. But the same factors that made 279 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: Alcatraz such an effective prison also proved to be its undoing. 280 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: You had this constant need to transport fresh water to 281 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: the island. There's no natural potable water source. You had 282 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: to move waste off of the island. Ultimately, this constant 283 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: hassle led the authorities to close Alcatraz and abandon it 284 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three. And that's we're just giving you 285 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: high level history here, because there's much more to the 286 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: Alcatraz story. But nineteen sixty three, in nineteen sixty four 287 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: is where things start to get really really interesting. 288 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: Right. You already mentioned the idea of sort of passive, 289 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 2: peaceful protesters from the Hoping Nation being incarcerated there on Alcatraz, 290 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: and they and others in the Native American kind of 291 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 2: pantheon are the centers largely of our story or at 292 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: least the first case of occupying Alcatraz for protest purposes. 293 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, not for a heist really. But if we 294 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: look back in these previous decades the context in which 295 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: this occurs, we see that the US government at the 296 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: time was in an intense and antagonistic situation with Native 297 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: American activists. They were absolutely seeking to crush groups like 298 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: the American Indian Movement and these various other associated activists 299 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: were staging public protests, and they were pushing for basic rights, 300 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: a lot of which had honestly been spelled out explicitly 301 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: in treaties and then later ignored. 302 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 2: Wouldn't you say, In some ways this is almost like 303 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: the equivalent of what the African American community was going 304 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: through with the Civil rights movement. Like you obviously had 305 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: laws on the books that in theory gave black people, 306 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: you know, equal protection under the law and equal rights, 307 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: but that just wasn't happening despite it being spelled out 308 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: on paper. The same thing was happening with Native American 309 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 2: tribes who were in theory, you know, made a whole 310 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: by the government for all the horrible things that you know, 311 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: our government did to these people. But then all that 312 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 2: stuff didn't really stick, and so you were left with 313 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: a situation where protest was absolutely necessary to insist upon 314 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: being given that equal treatment under law. 315 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, his power given or his power taken is the 316 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: old way to put it. And we we mentioned this 317 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: on stuff. They want you to know that parallel to 318 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement is inescapable and to Uncle Sam, 319 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: to intelligence and law enforcement of this time, squashing these 320 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: movements was seen as not a not a dick move, 321 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: but a matter of national security. And on the other side, 322 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: we see that the protesters, the activist and increasingly the 323 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: public saw this these actions as just one more instance 324 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: of the great many sins America had already committed against 325 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: Indigenous people. So the prison shuts down, it's nineteen sixty three, 326 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: it's abandoned, people aren't using it, people aren't going on 327 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, park service tours, and Native American community members 328 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: start lobbying the local government saying, hey, let let's try 329 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: to redevelop this island as a Indian cultural center and school. 330 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: Right and like, in the same way that some of 331 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: these treaties, most of these treaties were not being honored, 332 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: you know, at least to the spirit of what was 333 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: agreed upon in a brilliant move I think, kind of 334 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: highlighting that the Sioux Nation attempted to use an existing treaty, 335 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: the Fort Laramie Treaty of eighteen sixty eight, as kind 336 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 2: of a way in here saying hey, this is what 337 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: it says here. Apparently it would allow Native Americans to 338 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: appropriate surplus federal land. It was just a matter of 339 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: what was classified as surplus federal land, and obviously that 340 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 2: would largely be up to Uncle Sam to determine. But 341 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 2: their argument was, it's not being used, it's sitting there derelict. 342 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: It should be up for grabs, and based on the 343 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: letter of this treaty, we were exercising our rights to 344 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: do this. 345 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, brilliant, actually brilliant peaceful activism. This effort wasn't successful. 346 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: We'll get to why, but it became it transformed Alcatraz 347 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: now into a symbol of government indifference towards the indigenous. 348 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: So reclaiming this became a huge, unifying rallying cry. This 349 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: small group, well it was the Sioux were the small group, 350 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: and they were able to occupy the island for only 351 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: four hours, but those four hours utterly galvanized larger movements, 352 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: and there was part of it is because there was 353 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: a lot of publicity, reporters, photographers, legal support showed up. 354 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: So the actual party ended up being like forty people. 355 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: And they said, look, we're doing this demonstration, we're doing 356 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: it peacefully, we're doing it in accordance with sue treaty rights. 357 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: And then they did something absolutely love this great ridiculous history. 358 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: They offered the US government a deal. They said, look, 359 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: this is ours, we read the treaty, but we'll solid. Yeah, 360 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: we'll help you out, buddy, because of our long friendship together. 361 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: We'll sell you this island for the price you initially 362 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: offered our predecessors forty seven cents. Breaker, that's nine dollars 363 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: and forty cents for the entire island, talked San Francisco 364 00:21:53,600 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: real estate books. Right, if we do the inflation calculator bio, 365 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: then we'll see nine dollars and forty cents back then 366 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: is equal to ninety five dollars and ninety five cents 367 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: now still yeah, I mean they but the government refused 368 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: to play ball. They weren't vibing with this, so they 369 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: threatened everybody with felony charges, and the demonstrators departed peacefully, 370 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: but no one forgot the mission. And they said, oh, 371 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: we did get you know, the federal government to talk 372 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: with us. 373 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: They noticed us notice us federal government. No, it was 374 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 2: absolutely necessary in those days because to your point, Ben, 375 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: I mean, the need to squash these I mean, they 376 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 2: would look at it as rebellion, you know, but these 377 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: peaceful protests was fundamentally necessary as far as Uncle Sam 378 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: was concerned, because they couldn't have these radical ideas spreading 379 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 2: to the general population. You know, they had to nip 380 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 2: it in the bud, as they would say in the South. 381 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: Right exactly. Wait, is that just the thing people say. 382 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: I don't know, that's kind of southern eat. I don't know, 383 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 2: nip it in the bud. I just feel like it's 384 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: something you got to kind of say with a Southern accent. 385 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 2: But maybe they say it in the in the in 386 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: the Midwest. 387 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: It's gonna feel weird to hear. Sean Connery. 388 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: I can't I can't even get now doing Verner Herzog. 389 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: You know, Vernon Herzog would have been a good person 390 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 2: to make a documentary about Alcatraz. The nihilism of Erner Herzog, 391 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: I think is very appropriate for such a stark and 392 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: foreboding location. All right, here's the pitch. 393 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 3: We're going to do a documentary about Sean Connery where 394 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 3: Verner Herzog plays Sean Connery. 395 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: Boom, Okay, if the documentary is about Pokemon. 396 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: Yes, so it's sort of a meta documentary, like we're 397 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: doing a documentary about a film that it will never 398 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: actually be made, just the sort of troubled production of it. 399 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: It will also be a book. Okay, fair. 400 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: I think all documentaries are meta documentaries. 401 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: They're kind of you know, and not to get off 402 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 2: too off track, but it's a good point, ben, I mean, 403 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 2: anytime there's a documentary, there is a viewpoint. We've all 404 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: participated in this kind of stuff, and there is inherently 405 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 2: sort of like a little bit of twisty turniness in 406 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: terms of the way things are presented. 407 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a narrative there, the same way that a 408 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: disguise is really or a costume is an autobiography of 409 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: the person who chose to war it. 410 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: Have you seen Werner Herzog as a villain? He plays 411 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: a villain one time, actually twice, he was in one 412 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: of those Star Wars series. But the first time I 413 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 2: think you ever appeared on screen as a villain He's in. 414 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: It was like a Tom Cruise movie, Jack Reacher. He 415 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: plays this sinister like like you know, European villain who's 416 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: been in like gulags or whatever in Siberia, and he 417 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 2: had to chew off his own fingers. But he just 418 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: once again, Verner h and Sean Connery both so magnetic. 419 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: They just kind of play themselves whenever they're Yeah. 420 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: And speaking of cinematic actions, here's here's what happens next. 421 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: A fire destroys San Francisco's American Indian Center in October 422 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty nine. A few years later, and then 423 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: the activist group is kind of like a supergroup known 424 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: as Indians of All Tribes, say, let's reevaluate this Alcatraz idea. 425 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 1: And again a couple of other people have visited with 426 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: similar similar aims. 427 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 2: Well, and they're certainly like they do. They are serious 428 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: about using the site as a cultural heritage sense, just 429 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: like they were the first time. It just happens to 430 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: also be a great act of kind of civil disobedience. 431 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not theater. They are going to actually use 432 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: the land. And so on November ninth, nineteen sixty nine, 433 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: largely under the leadership of Richard Oakes, a handful of 434 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: protesters go to the islands again. Authorities remove them the 435 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: next day, but Oaks is still counting this as a win, 436 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: and he tells the San Francisco Chronicle, if a one 437 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: day occupation by white men on Indian land years ago 438 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: established squatters' rights, then a one day occupation of Alcatraz 439 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: should establish Indian rights to the island. So they're continually 440 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: doing this. Let's play by the same rules, guys, We're 441 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: playing by the way that you applied your rules. 442 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 2: Right. Hey, all of these moves are so clever because 443 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 2: they really just do put in sharp focus like how 444 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 2: hypocritical the United States actions have been every step of 445 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: the way after they gave sort of their half hearted 446 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 2: apology for you know, stealing all of the Indians' land 447 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 2: and treating them absolutely inhumanly for decades. 448 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: And Richard Oakes's statement to the Chronicle would prove prescient, 449 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: I think, because just a few days later in the 450 00:26:54,680 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: Let's get some Let's get some sinister sailing music cover. 451 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the wee. 452 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: Hours of November twentieth, nineteen sixty nine. This time The 453 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: group is returning with an occupation force of eighty nine men, women, 454 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: and children. They sail through the San Francisco Bay under 455 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: cover of darkness. They land at Alcatraz. They claim the 456 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: island for all of the tribes of North America. The 457 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: Coast Guard, by the way, is fighting against them. They're 458 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: trying to create a blockade to prevent these folks from landing. 459 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: Fourteen protesters make it through. They begin the occupation. There's 460 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: one guy at wall. 461 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: Oh my god, this guy, the caretaker, the guard. 462 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: He knows he's outnumbered. 463 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: He says into his radio, mayday, may day, the Indians 464 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 2: have landed. 465 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, as much. 466 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: What do you think was gonna Do you think they 467 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: were gonna like murder him? Yeah? 468 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: Who knows what was going through his head? 469 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: Is may day something you say at sea? 470 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: Though? 471 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 2: Is not even like kind of a misnomer for him 472 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 2: to use may day? Maybe now it might just be 473 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: a general like I'm in trouble kind of call. But 474 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: I guess I always think of it as like our 475 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: ship is sinking. 476 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: I thought it was aircrafts and ships in distress, But 477 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: it might just. 478 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 2: Be mayday for a crashing shit airplane too. Certainly mayday. Yeah, 479 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: I absolutely have heard that as. 480 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: Well, but maybe just a general radio telephonic distress signal. Anyway, Well, 481 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: we know the guy was stressed out, that he was distressed. 482 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: And he made aid, and once the Indians landed, as 483 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: he so astutely put it, they issued a manifesto addressed 484 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: in a delightfully pointed manner to the Great White Father 485 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: and all his people. A little bit of dark in there, 486 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: maybe it's I don't know, what do you think? Then? 487 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, uh, you know, we talked about this 488 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: a little bit. I think he's uh. The concept is, 489 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: we're cheekily referring to Uncle Sam, right, the ID of 490 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: America in that sense, and then. 491 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 2: The boss of all white people. 492 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: And I guess we shall also stop here to point 493 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: this out. We've been using the phrase native American or 494 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: indigenous or Indian, and we're when we're saying Indian there, 495 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: obviously we're not we're not casting any aspersions. 496 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: We're it's the term they were using some of these 497 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 2: you know, yeah, organizing acts. 498 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's in a lot of the quotations from 499 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: different sources. So you're you're absolutely right, they've got this 500 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: somewhat cheeky tone. And here's why we think it's cheeky 501 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: because in their manifesto they said, look, we're actually, unlike you, 502 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: going to use the land. We'll make a cultural center 503 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: in Indian school. We're building a museum. Alcatraz is ours 504 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: by right of discovery. Take that, they said. But hang on, guys, we're. 505 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: They they called DIBs. Basically shot. 506 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, they said, hey, we're cool. Though, we're cool, even 507 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: though this is ours. We'll play your little games and 508 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: we will pay you for it if you want, We'll 509 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: give you, quote, twenty four dollars in glass beads and 510 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: red cloth. 511 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: Gotta be red cloth. Red was a that was like 512 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 2: one of the more sought after colors, I believe, right, 513 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: because you wasn't I think so. I mean, maybe I'm 514 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 2: thinking of purple because there were certain like certain dyes 515 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: that were more pricey or more rare. But point being, 516 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 2: they were going with the same kind of line of 517 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: reasoning as their predecessors, you know, who had attempted this occupation, 518 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: the idea of offering them something insultingly low. Once again 519 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: to point out the insultingly low offers that the United 520 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: States have made in an attempt to kind of wipe 521 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: their conscience clean, you know. But it was always a 522 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: grift with Uncle Sam. You know, it was capitalizing on 523 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: inexperience and making negotiations where the playing field was just 524 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 2: not even at all. Because this is not people that 525 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 2: were coming from a place of commerce or coming from 526 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: a place of you know, the absolute unchecked capitalism that 527 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: was the United States and England. 528 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. And also twenty four dollars in glass beads and 529 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: red cloth is according to legends, so the same price 530 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: that Indian communities were supposedly paid for the island of Manhattan, 531 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: all of. 532 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,959 Speaker 2: Manhattan, Yeah, the whole thing, and so long island. 533 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: Right, And we've talked about this in the past, but 534 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: that's just peak trolling, brilliant, amazing stuff. And then the 535 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: conversation came up, as it would in any occupation or siege, 536 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: how long can these folks hang out? Right, Because, as 537 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: any student of the really old school war stuff knows, 538 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: you cut off the supply chain, right yeah, Castle, yeah, 539 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: blockade too. 540 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: All they had to do is make it past four 541 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 2: hours though, and they you know, they had one up 542 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: on the previous attempt. 543 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, when the activists were I wouldn't say, threatened with this, 544 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: but when they were thinking through this, they further trolled 545 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: in an even more sincere way, and they said, look, 546 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: we don't mind that this island is underdeveloped. We don't 547 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: care that it lacks potable fresh water, because you see, 548 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: most of us have already endured similar conditions on countless reservations. 549 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 2: Right. No, they're basically saying, come at us, uncle Sam, 550 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: like we've got this, like we were. We can make 551 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: this work because we're not a bunch of babies, you know. 552 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 2: I mean, there is sort of a bit of a 553 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: flex there, you know, and saying, you know, you subjected 554 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 2: us to conditions far worse than this, and we will 555 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: not be swayed by the things that would probably cause 556 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: you guys to turn tail and run home. 557 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a good point. And the government agreed 558 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: to negotiate, but were they negotiating in good faith? They 559 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: immediately rejected all of the proposed demands from the occupiers, 560 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: none of which were super crazy, none of which were 561 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: bonkers again, a school, cultural center, the return of Alcatraz 562 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: to American Indians. If anything, it seems that the government 563 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: was worried about setting a precedent, so the organizers, as 564 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: were the occupiers. I should say, as soon as they 565 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: get to the island, they start as self organize. They 566 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: give everybody a job, everybody votes on major decisions. There's 567 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: a council of guidance and elders, and they set up 568 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: the school within three weeks. They have the elders teaching 569 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: traditional arts and crafts, costume decoration, the cultural rituals that 570 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: define a people. 571 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: And can we also just point out something that we 572 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 2: talked a lot about and I've done a whole episode 573 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: about and stuff that i want you to know. The 574 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: notion of an Indian school and what they were building 575 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: here and creating here was in stark contrast to the 576 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 2: Indian schools that the United States government set up for 577 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: the very purposes of erasing all of the things that 578 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 2: you just described as being taught in this particular situation, 579 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 2: like it was, you know, to assimilate Native American children 580 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 2: and strip them of all of these customs and traditions 581 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: and you know, dance and music and just culture. Its 582 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: absolute erasure. 583 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And things were perfect with this occupation, 584 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: the island became increasingly a difficult place to live. As 585 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: time went on on December fourth, Alcatraz had all their 586 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: electricity cut, the government disconnected in coming phone calls. They 587 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: had a water main and they had a fuel line, 588 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: but both were leaking. And then a lot of the 589 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: occupiers students, students love protesting, so a lot a lot 590 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: of the yeah, a lot of the the college kids 591 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: had to go back to school just to keep their 592 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: scholarships and their loans. And then you started seeing some 593 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: of the less well intentioned people coming into the. 594 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: Game, a bit of an unsavory set, folks that perhaps 595 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: had criminal records, addiction problems, many who were simply just 596 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,479 Speaker 2: capitalizing on a scene, you know, a far out happening man. 597 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 2: You know, like a lot of these hippies who are 598 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 2: essentially just looking for somewhere to go and hang out, 599 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 2: sort of feign actual activism, but really they were more 600 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 2: there like they were hanging out in a fish lot, 601 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 2: you know, and like huffing balloons of nitrous or whatever. 602 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: M Yeah, what you might hear called dreambows sometimes exactly. 603 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: So this again, it's the occupation is imperfect, but it 604 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: becomes regards it is as a success because the presidential 605 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: administration at the time, Nixon says, we're gonna bide our time. 606 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: We don't want violent intervention as long as these folks 607 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: are peaceful, and hopefully they'll just you know, get tired 608 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: and go home. As we mentioned, celebrities were showing their support. 609 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:26,439 Speaker 1: This became a literal cause celebrity and President Nixon gave 610 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: a speech saying the time has come for new era 611 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: in which the Indian future is determined by Indian acts 612 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: and Indian decisions all at all. Before they left, this 613 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: group held Alcatraz for nineteen months. 614 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 2: Incredible, more than four hours. This is a feat. Again, 615 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: think about all the impediments, you know, like all of 616 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 2: the obstacles. I mean, it's very very, very impressive. 617 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: Agreed, and this is where we're going to stop in here, 618 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: because there's much more to the story. We do know 619 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: it met with. We do know this plan and this 620 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,919 Speaker 1: peak trolling did lead to serious policy change. The US 621 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: government returned millions of acres of ancestral land and pasted 622 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: fifty plus legislative proposals supporting tribal self rule. There's a 623 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: story a lot of people might not be super familiar 624 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,439 Speaker 1: with in the modern day, but it's a fundamental part 625 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 1: of the struggle for rights and self determination which continues now. 626 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: And I think it's a beautiful thing. But I still 627 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: knowing that these folks lasted nineteen months. Guess it's astonishing, 628 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: but for me, it's every time they came to them 629 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: and said, Okay, we'll make a deal with you America. 630 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: You guys like beads. 631 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 2: Who doesn't love beads? So well, it may not have 632 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 2: yielded the results that the protesters and the organizers were 633 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: looking for quickly, it definitely made an impact historically speaking, 634 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 2: and did sort of set that precedent to a degree 635 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 2: you were describing earlier, right, Ben, Yeah. 636 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. And this is again, this is a strange story, 637 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: but it's an important one to remember. If you'd like 638 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: to learn more about the US government's contentious relationship and 639 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: conspiracies against some of these activist groups, check out our 640 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: episode Uncle Sam versus the American Indian Movement. Thanks as 641 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: always to our super producer mister Max Williams. Thanks to 642 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: our composer Alex Williams, who made this slap and bop. 643 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 2: H indeed continuously slap. Thanks to Christopherraciotis and Eve's Jeff Coates, 644 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 2: both here in spirit. Jonathan Strickland the quizzer. You know, 645 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 2: we spoke to Jonathan the other day in a work 646 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 2: capacity and he mentioned that he's really waiting for that 647 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: call to hop back on the show and quiz us out. 648 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 2: So I think it's time. I think we shoul to 649 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: make that happen. But I did inform him that he's 650 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: never far from our thoughts, at least as far as 651 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 2: these outros are concerned, and that a shiny bald head 652 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 2: is often mentioned in detail, and he said he had 653 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 2: just recently polished it, so we'll see a real shiny 654 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: Jonathan Stricklan also thanks to aj Bahamas Jacobs of course, 655 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 2: a huzzler. 656 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he's our own Sean Connery and we hope 657 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: to see him soon. In the meantime, folks, be well. 658 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: Our journey through state by state ridiculous History continues later 659 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: this week with Nebraska. 660 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 661 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 662 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.