WEBVTT - Impact of Auto Tariffs with Chris Bryant, Battle Over Bugatti 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:09.680 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I'm Matt Miller and 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:11.920 I'm Hannah Elliott and this is hot Pursuit. 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.239 I guess to see you. It's great to see you. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:24.840 Do you look fantastic? Oh? 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:25.280 Thanks? 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.200 I don't know if my zoom for some reason, I 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:28.080 look very red. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:30.840 I'm not, it's just the lighting. 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:40.440 What uh what a day yesterday, today, probably tomorrow. Like wow, 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.599 these tariffs, I mean, this new world order. 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:48.600 It's exhausting. It's I mean, my nerves are shot. 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.239 From my point of view as a journalist, like so exciting, 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.440 you know, But I look at my four oh one 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:56.160 k and I'm like. 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.680 No, I know, I know. I can't believe that, Like 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.000 they went through with it. He went through with it 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:04.720 because we've been hearing about this is gonna happen, and 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.440 he kind of like, ah, right, well we'll see because 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.520 everything has been so volatile anyway. 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.920 Everyone was actually did it. Everybody was like, you know, 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.759 it's so surprising, And I'm like, what he's been telling us. 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.600 The whole time, you know, that really doesn't mean much. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.399 Sometimes I always think of the Far Side cartoon where 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:23.600 the two people are looking up at the billboard of 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.920 the the two sheep are looking up at the billboard 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.120 of the wolf, and one sheep says to the other, 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:31.640 I like him because he says what he's thinking. And 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.280 and the wolf is saying, I'm going to eat you. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.199 You know, Yes, I love He's been he's been telling 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.640 us like he's going to eat us. And here here 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.520 it is. It's incredible. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.240 Yes. So I spent the whole week leading up to 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.320 this writing a story about how classic car collectors and 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:57.280 brokers and shippers and logistics specialists and legal authorities, we're 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:02.480 all freaking out because going into the Trump had not 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.200 announced any exemptions and had said specifically there will be 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.000 no exemptions on the twenty five percent automotive tariffs that 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.680 he was going to enact effective April third, which is today, 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:20.440 and that goes for cars and parts coming into the country, 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.840 a flat twenty five percent tariff. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:28.600 So have won unless their USMCA compliance, yes, and in 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.920 which case they will be taxed only on the percentage 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.760 of parts that are not American. 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.399 So if a car is coming in with twenty five 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.239 percent US parts, it'll it'll be taxed on the rest, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.240 It'll be taxed on the seventy five percent that are 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.640 not American. All that to say, there wasn't any exemption 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.800 written in for classic cars, which would have been a 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.920 really big deal because that means that if you're buying 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.920 something at r M Sotheby's upcoming sale in Milan, like 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.600 you've got a Aston Martin that you've got your eye on, 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.880 like our Steve Sarah told me that tax on another 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:05.840 twenty five percent to what you're going to pay, and 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:07.720 that kind of kills the deal because why would you 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.239 pay that premium? You just wouldn't. It also meant that 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.680 people who were going to consign cars to sales in 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.799 the US, to auctions or whatever, especially in Monterey, we're 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.240 pulling their cars already from the auctions because why would 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.280 you pay another twenty five percent to sell your car? 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.880 Just doesn't make sense. The good news is, as of 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.000 yesterday afternoon, I did see some guidance that was sent 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:37.840 around to from customs to shippers that said that there 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.080 will be an exemption for cars that are twenty five 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.160 years or older. Now that doesn't mean that cars that 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:48.440 are fifteen years old won't also be tax which is 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.520 kind of tough because what about the cool Mercedes and 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.040 jdms that we want to get over here to collect 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.200 They're still collectible, they're just not old. So that's it 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.560 cars exactly. So that's kind of an issue. But the 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:05.880 flip side of that, which is kind of good for us, 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:10.000 is that potentially it means that any of these collectible 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.960 cars that are already in the US are going to 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.279 be worth more because if we if we if the 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.119 importation of these cars slows down, it's kind of good 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.719 if we already have our own collectible cars. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:27.279 Well, so there's there's a lot of moving parts here. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.920 But basically, so classic cars will not be they will 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.159 be exempt from the twenty five percent auto tariff that 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.039 goes into effect today. We're recording this on April third. 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.279 Yes, if they're older than twenty five years old. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.279 If they're older than twenty five years old, they will 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.960 be exempt from that twenty five percent tariff. If they're 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.040 coming from Europe, for example, they will still be subject 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:51.839 to a two and a half percent tariff. 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:53.919 Yes, and that has always been the case. 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:58.039 Yes, And but my question is on Saturday, when the 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:01.559 ten percent blanket tariffs go and to effect, I guess 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.640 those will apply to classic cars as well. And then 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.120 on Wednesday, when the additional tariffs go into effect twenty percent. 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.160 For example, on the EU, are those going to hit 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.360 like classic car if you import like a nineteen sixty 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:20.560 four nine to eleven from Stuttgart, are you going to 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.559 have to pay next week at the end of next week, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.640 you know, basically twenty or thirty percent on that car. 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.680 The answer to that is no to my as of today, 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.440 to my best understanding, because I did read the executive 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:38.320 order that was released yesterday when they are talking about 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:43.000 the reciprocal tariffs, right, and that order said some goods 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.400 will not be subject to the reciprocal tariff. These include 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.600 steal in aluminium articles and autos. Automotive parts already subject 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:57.200 to tariffs. So at least with the reciprocal tariffs, autos 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.800 and automotive parts will not be subject. Now when the 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.919 flat ten percent, that's a little unclear. That's a little unclear. 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.120 I guess I need to plast the two and a 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.279 half percent that currently. 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:09.120 See that's a good question. 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.080 Wow, so a little bit confusing, But for the most part, 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.760 it does look like exemptions if you're buying cars over 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:17.679 twenty five years. 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.560 Old, and yeah, I mean that's not me, but it 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:21.520 it's a lot of people. 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.000 Well you might what if you find a car. 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.000 There are great marks overseas, they're all right hand drive. 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.600 But that's fine. I can get behind it. I will say. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.279 I talked with one shipper told me at at Silver 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.599 Tiger Logistics. He said they bring over about a thousand 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.599 cars a year and they regularly have flights that the 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.960 value of the cars on the single flight is over 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.120 one hundred million dollars. Wow, So this is this is 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.360 I mean, it seems niche, but it's a lot of 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.760 money and a lot of goods that would have been 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:53.840 subject to this. 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.200 Yeah. I mean, by the way, I was at the 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:04.039 Moto GP races in Austin last weekend and it strikes me, 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:06.120 and I'm sure you see this another for example, a 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.200 Formula one. It strikes me that if you've got it 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:13.000 down to a science, packing up and shipping vehicles is 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:17.840 so easy completely. They've they've got boxes like already built 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.520 and they just roll the chassis in, you know, sinch 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.840 it down, close the box and it goes into a 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.360 container perfectly. 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.160 So completely, like theoretically you could have it done with 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:30.240 a single phone call. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:32.640 Right. Well, I'm just saying, like Silver Tiger or. 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.040 Yes, yes, our cars cars. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.240 They do it all the time, so yes, constantly. For them, 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.680 it's not a big deal. If you're one person and 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:43.680 it's the first time you've ever done it, then it's 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.280 kind of a pain. But if you're doing regularly, yeah, 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.440 so very interesting stuff. We're going to talk by the way, 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:54.160 to Chris Bryant, who is a Bloomberg opinion writer and 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.240 one with whom I worked for many years in Berlin. 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:58.160 Very smart guy. 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.320 That's so cool. I I still need to go to Berlin. 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.720 I've never been, but yeah, Chris Brian is one of 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.920 my favorite columnists at Bloomberg. He's I read is. I 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.440 have notices attached to his column so I read them 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.240 whenever they come out. And he's really good at tying 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:16.680 in the business side, the product side, putting it all 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.720 in context. And yeah, he's he's great. 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.840 I've been struck by his columns lately. I've been struck 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:27.920 by his his knowledge of these kind of niche products. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.679 I mean, you are a hypercar expert, because that's your job, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.160 but Chris is like an editorial writer for a financial 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.840 news organization, so it's pretty cool that he knows. For example, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.560 you know that the Valhalla has much improved interior, you know. 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.480 So, yeah, yeah, you know what I like too. I 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:54.520 firmly believe that the products of any given automotive company 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.480 speak to the company. So when you get into a 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.040 certain product and your note seeing things, those are a 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.080 direct They're a distant, but they're a direct result of 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:10.600 what is happening within the company structurally and financially, and 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.960 you can draw a straight line. And when I read Chris, 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:20.040 he completely clarifies what's going on internally at the company 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.319 that I see in the product. I mean, there is 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:28.080 a correlation. And it's so cliche to say, but there's 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.240 a direct correlation between what is going on within the 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.720 behind closed doors at certain companies and the end product. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:37.480 And that's always true. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.319 Yeah. Absolutely, I've been loving his stuff lately as well. 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.400 I too have an alert set on my Bloomberg so 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.839 that I can get his column sent directly to me. 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.360 Let's get into it, Chris Bryant from Berlin. 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.839 Chris, thanks for joining us. I want to go right 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.200 into your column today me too. 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.320 I'm so glad you wrote that. And this is the 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:03.679 first time I actually understand the ownership structure of Porsche, Bugatti, Remac. 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.199 I've never gotten so acusing and so weird. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.160 Yeah, I mean, can I just jump in and ask 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.600 for me the biggest question, which is I don't think 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.360 Porscha needs Bugatti, and I feel like that's kind of 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.520 where you landed in your column. But I don't see 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.680 what Bugatti gives Porsche at this point. 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.520 Well, I mean it's a topic that I was wrestling 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.640 with and just to catch catch people love. I mean, 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:33.160 you know, there's now sort of discussions basically that that Martirimac, 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.720 this amazing Croatian entrepreneur, would like to, in conjunction with investors, 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.400 maybe take over the half of Bugatti Remac that Porsche own. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.040 And I don't know. I mean, Porscha's really under pressure. 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.720 They need to be more luxury, they need to sell 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.800 more expensive vehicles, and they have this amazing asset that 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.880 they never talk about, that you kind of never really 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.400 hear very much about. And Martima has been getting on 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.200 with the job for the last three four years and 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.800 then suddenly, yeah, these tensions have emerged, and you know, 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.000 it seems like Porscha maybe wanted to take over the 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.240 joint venture and now maybe he does, and it's all 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.439 a bit unclear, but I just can't help thinking out 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.319 They've got this this great asset that produces vehicles that 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.640 you know, highly sought after that people have to you know, 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.920 a clamor to get hold of, and then they might 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:20.480 sell it. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:21.320 I mean, I don't know. 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:23.599 I did come down on the on the side of 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.880 the argument, yeah, that maybe they maybe they should just 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:27.920 because there aren't enough commonalities with the rest of the 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.719 Porsche business and making hyper cars we can talk about that, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.720 the economics of that are not always great. 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:38.680 Well, let me ask you really pointedly, what is your 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:44.440 sense about Porsche's plan to develop the hypercar success or 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:49.160 something in addition to the nine eighteen Spider And is 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:56.960 there a sense that Porsche had hoped to leverage Bugatti intelligence, infrastructure, 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.640 whatever else in order to develop the new hyper which 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.559 obviously we haven't seen and has sort of disappeared. 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:05.480 Yeah, we've not seen it, right, I mean, I think 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.240 the original plan for Porscho was, you know, we saw 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.880 this mission acts hypercar that they developed, an all electric 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:16.360 hypercar that I think they showed a couple of years three. Yeah, 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.200 back then it probably seemed like a smart idea. Of course, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:20.559 now you know, a lot can happen in. 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:21.280 A couple of years. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:26.360 And even Marty Rimack, who developed the Remagnivera, which you know, 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.360 broke all kinds of records as a all electric hypercar, 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.079 had some comments last year along the lines as well, 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.920 it's not really selling as much as we hoped. Many 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.000 of the customers in this in this bracket who were 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.800 buying a you know, a seven car, they you know, 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.360 they feel that electric hypercars like the kind of emotion. 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.040 They still want to combustion engine all the rest of it. 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.679 And you know, even hinted that he might not develop 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.920 another one. And so if I was Porsche probably looking 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.160 at that space now, I might have reservations about bringing 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.120 in all electric hypercar to market. And therefore, you know, 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:00.600 if they have to go back to the drawing board, 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:01.640 then it could take a long time. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.240 And that's why you. 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.680 Know, some people thought, well maybe Bogat you could help 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:07.439 fill that gap. I mean, if they if they took 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.840 control of that joint venture, then they sort of instantly 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.079 have a hypercar in the portfolio. They wouldn't have to 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.720 develop a new one. And Hannah, I think you were there, 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.400 like the new Toboon is very impressive vehicle. 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.600 Now, yeah, it's it's amazing, and I think they've sold out. 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.959 And yet just as you say, you know, Remec and 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.319 let's not forget Peninferina with their electric Batista, which is 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.200 also using REMAT components, Like now is not the time 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.679 to be selling an electric hypercar. My question for Portie 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:44.679 is why do they not pivot to a hybrid, you know, supercar, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.200 something like their nine to nineteen, the lemm prototype that 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:53.680 they've already developed. Why not just move that into production. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:55.439 Hybrid too? Right? 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.080 Yeah, I mean to me that that would make a 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.679 lot of sense. And from you know, what I hear 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:07.200 on the ground from collectors is that Porsche was accepting 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.840 statements of intent and really trying to drum up buyers 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.960 for this mission X, this hypercar. Now. I asked last year, 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.800 I asked Porsche, what's going on, what's the latest? Can 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:20.680 you confirm or deny? And of course they don't want 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:22.760 to confirm or deny where they are in the program, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.760 but they did say, we've never accepted deposits because what 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.200 we showed in twenty twenty three was only a concept, 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.640 you know. Therefore, they have plausible deniability that it's not 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.640 like they canceled anything. If they didn't commit to anything 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.160 in the first place. But if you talk to you know, 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.240 high end buyers and collectors, they all say, oh, yeah, 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.800 Porche's been trying, Porscha's been, you know, offering me allocations 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.120 for this, and I didn't want it because it was electric, 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.920 which takes the question, then why not simply pivot and 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.480 make it a hybrid, because they've already got a hybrid 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.160 prototype that you know, has the numbers for it. 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.680 Yeah, performance, I think that absolutely should do. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.920 Of course, I think that, you know, always the story 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.640 with hypercars is can you develop then add a reasonable 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.200 costs because clearly you've always got to be trying to 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.280 stretch the boundaries of the possible and that always is 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.200 a challenge. And of course what's really hard right now 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.280 is that they just have this competitor who seems to 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.760 have cracked it right with Ferrari. I mean, say what 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.000 you like about the fad. Personally, I'm not a big fan. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:23.960 I know a lot of people have mixed opinions about 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.200 that vehicle, but it's going to be an absolute cash 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.320 machine for Ferrari. You know, they're all sold out seven 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.720 hundred and ninety nine units, so that's a lot more 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.160 than they produced. It's a lot more than they produced 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.440 with le Ferrari. They managed to allocate them all very quickly. 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:40.280 I dare say they in a couple of years or 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.200 come out with the spider version as well, a few 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.120 hundred of those. So they're going to make you know, 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.400 billions of revenue with that and analysting very high margin. 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.760 And so if Porsche is not able to do that, 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:51.480 you know, if they came with a hyper car and 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.560 then it wasn't very profitable for example, that would be 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.560 you know, disastrous too, So so you know, really difficult one. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.320 I just I get the feeling of the fact it 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:03.160 hasn't happened, you know, reflects either challenge is on the 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.360 engineering side or yeah, the power train in front is 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.080 a question. And then simply they've just got so much 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:10.920 on their plate at the moment. You know, the electric 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.960 strategy is not you know, gone up and smoke China's 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.320 strategy too, so you know, trying to get all those. 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:17.080 Things in line. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.440 I think maybe it's like too much and the thing 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:20.760 that's like not happened yet. 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.640 I want to just say that the F eighty being 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.720 sold out at those prices just proves the fact that 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.240 rich people have more money than sense. I mean, people 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.160 are just throwing money at it because it's ferrari, And 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:37.040 I think probably those buyers are not true car lovers, 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:37.920 because how can. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:38.360 You say that? 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:39.040 How can. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.120 Seeing the same car that I'm seeing? 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:49.440 I see the weak powertrain? 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:51.160 What are you talking about? 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.840 Is it the six even or is it only four cylinders? 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:56.680 Who knows? I didn't tell you what it is. 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.560 Read nine hundred horse power? It does, I don't care, 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.440 But that doesn't get under the hood and count the cylinders. 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.399 I mean, I can't even none of us on this 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.920 call right now could drive that car to its full 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.600 capacity because we're not professional driver. 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.440 So many cars and look, I've driven many many cars 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.040 that have huge horse power numbers, but they're hybrids and 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.720 they have a two liter four cylinder, and they're just 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:28.920 not pleasing vehicles to drive. The horse power doesn't matter anymore. 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.080 That's why something like a Rimeck hypercar makes me feel 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.479 a little bit sick. I mean, it's just a waste 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.280 of a soulless waste of money. And the only people 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.520 who want something like that are like Lewis Hamilton, because 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.119 he just has so much money and doesn't care that 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:42.800 much about it. 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.760 I would withhold judgment until you've driven it, my friend, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:51.520 I guarantee you fair, if you drove it, you would 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:53.959 be screaming with joy and pleasure. 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.680 Well, I also paid for it, right, because I would 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.639 much rather have something that has true character, and I 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.760 sincerely doubt that that does. Although you're right, I haven't 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:04.960 driven it. I want to step back, though, for a 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:09.800 moment and walk through just the ownership structure of Bugatti 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.199 Remac because I don't think Chris, that a lot of 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.400 people understand it, and I think after reading your column 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.680 I do for the first time. So basically, Porsche owns 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.280 a forty five percent steak in the joint venture of 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:28.119 Bugatti Rimac, and Rimac owns the other fifty five percent, 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:34.320 but Porsche owns twenty percent of Remac, so in a sense, 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.760 they actually own more. And I wonder if this is 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.159 just a legacy of Wolfsburg, Like, are the Germans just 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:47.360 into these incredibly complex ownership structures or is there any 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:48.320 kind of reason for that? 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.159 Well, I mean not. You know the history as well 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:51.560 as I do. 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.879 You know this used to be owned by Volksbag and 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:56.400 it was Ferdinand Pich. 0:18:57.720 --> 0:18:58.480 His baby. 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:00.480 You know, he is the one who. 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.600 Rescued Bugatti, developed the you know, the ve run and 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.480 great expanse really you know, brought it up to the 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.960 modern era. And then of course we had diesel Gate, 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:14.000 we had you know how a dec CEO came in 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.120 with the or the electric strategy, and Bugatti didn't really 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.359 seem to fit in that structure anymore. And as you 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.360 know discussed, he didn't have the you know, the economies 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.320 of scale, the shared parts and all the rest of it. 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.159 And so they found this sort of neat solution. You know, 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.800 they saw Marty Rummack, and to be honest, I always think, 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.960 my goodness me. You know, he'd already had investment from 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.920 Porsche into his you know, component maker and all the 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.639 rest of it in the his Rimant group. But then 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.000 they suddenly came to him and said, hey, you know 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.520 you're gonna have Bugatti. The guy was thirty three years old. 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:50.040 I mean, it's incredible. And that's what they did because 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.199 at the time, you know, he developed the Nevera and 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.880 the expectation was that he would then develop basically an 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.440 electric Bugatti. I think that was the feeding back then, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.359 and you know that the future for Bugaddy was going 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.439 to be electric too, and he would essentially make it 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.600 a kind of an electric version of the Shiron. Now 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.000 than goodness he didn't. But yeah, as a result you 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:14.320 have this structure with you know, the state got past 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.960 the Porsche portion went public and so then you had 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.719 forty five percent on the Porsche side fifty five on 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.280 the Remax side. With importantly Marti Rimak as the CEO, 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.199 so he's the one driving the force there. And to 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:28.480 be honest, I mean he's made some good decisions. As say, 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.159 he didn't develop an all electric Bugaddi, I think that 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:34.560 would have been a mistake in hindsight. So it's a hybrid, 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.200 the tur Beyon. It's a good decision. You know, developed 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.680 a relatively low cost. He's got Cosworth, you know, providing 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.520 the engine. I think you know he won't have any 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.200 problems on the Cylindercount with that engine. 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:45.440 Matt. 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.480 That's sixteen of them, I think, so you know takes 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.320 that box for you. And so yeah, in the theory's 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.359 going okay. But you know, actually, if you look at 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.280 the financials, which I did in the Porsche accounts, you 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.639 know that they lost money last year and the sales 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:02.040 tumbled almost fifty percent, and that's partly because of just 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:03.000 the motorcycle. 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.479 This hiron ran out. That turbion has not arrived yet. 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.600 They've got a couple of victuals, you know, convertible in 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:09.919