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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Most people in this country, quite honestly, haven't even

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Speaker 1: examined their homophobia, and that goes for black and white people.

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Speaker 1: All different ethnicities haven't even begun to examine their homophobia.

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Speaker 1: And most people haven't even begun to examine their racism

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Speaker 1: because they are afraid of what they're going to find

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Speaker 1: out about themselves. On a spring day in nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 1: Audrey Lord stood before an audience at Amherst College in

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Speaker 1: western Massachusetts to self describe black lesbian mother warrior. Poet

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Speaker 1: said something that resonated with me decades later. Too often,

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Speaker 1: Lord said, we pour the energy needed for recognizing and

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Speaker 1: exploring difference into pretending those differences are insurmountable barriers or

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Speaker 1: that they do not exist at all. This results in

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Speaker 1: a voluntary isolation or false and treacherous connections. Either way,

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Speaker 1: we do not develop tools for using human difference as

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Speaker 1: a springboard for creative change within our lives. We must

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Speaker 1: deal with our differences and the differences that are not

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Speaker 1: being dealt with or provided for. Now. Once we deal

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Speaker 1: with those differences that aren't being provided for, we do

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Speaker 1: it in a context it says, hey, then we can

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Speaker 1: use these differences. We don't have to eradicate, and we

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Speaker 1: don't have to wipe them out. We also don't have

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Speaker 1: to remain with them. And that's how I see it.

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Speaker 1: In other words, I'm talking about the creative use of difference.

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Speaker 1: This radical black lesbian feminist, this literary very icon gave

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Speaker 1: us these tools, if only we'd use them. I'm abramex Kendy,

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Speaker 1: and this is be anti racist. We have all been

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Speaker 1: programmed to respond to human differences between us with fear

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Speaker 1: and loathing, and to handle that difference in one of

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Speaker 1: three ways. Ignore it and if that is not possible,

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Speaker 1: copy it if we think it is dominant, or destroy

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Speaker 1: it if we think it is subordinate. These are the

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Speaker 1: words of Audrey Lord. Like most cis gender heterosexual Americans,

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Speaker 1: I was taught to fear the difference of gay men

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Speaker 1: of transgender women. I was taught to fear what I

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Speaker 1: didn't know, what I didn't understand, what was different. I

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Speaker 1: was taught to fear the very people fighting for their liberation.

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Speaker 1: And my own Lord showed us another way. Why can't

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Speaker 1: we relate across human differences as equals? The term equals

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Speaker 1: not equal. We are different and we are the same.

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Speaker 1: We may love different people, but how we love is

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Speaker 1: the same. We are equals in all our differences. Lord's

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Speaker 1: words echo the statement of a group of black lesbian feminists,

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Speaker 1: the Kombahee River Collective of Boston Shout Out to Boston

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven. Barbara Smith, Demita Frasier, and Beverly

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Speaker 1: Smith wrote, we reject pedestals, queenhood, and walking ten paces behind.

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Speaker 1: To be recognized as human, lovely human is enough. To

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Speaker 1: reflect on the words of these women is to reflect

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Speaker 1: on two critical aspects of being anti racist, seeing and

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Speaker 1: appreciating and respecting difference, and leveling difference. We have not

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Speaker 1: been taught to level the humanity of different races and

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Speaker 1: genders and sexual orientations, but we must. This is the

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Speaker 1: anti racist perspective that can liberate humanity from sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia,

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Speaker 1: and their intersections. As we celebrate Pride Month this June,

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Speaker 1: we must remember that queer people of color have always

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Speaker 1: been at the center of fights for human freedom. They

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Speaker 1: have always been at the center of the human struggle

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Speaker 1: to be who we want to be, to appreciate who

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Speaker 1: we want to appreciate, to love who we want to love.

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Speaker 1: They have taught me that for humans to truly be free,

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Speaker 1: humans must be free to be different. Welcome to be

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Speaker 1: Anti Racist in action podcasts where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle,

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Speaker 1: and abolish racism, how to save humanity from the divisiveness

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Speaker 1: of racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power and policy,

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Speaker 1: How to free humanity through the unity of anti racist

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Speaker 1: ideas and the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy.

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Speaker 1: On be anti Racist, we discuss how to make the

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Speaker 1: impossible possible, and how to bring into being what modern

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Speaker 1: humans have never known, a just, inequitable world. You ready,

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Speaker 1: let's roll. How could we not have expected that if

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden came the president elect of the United States,

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Speaker 1: that the streets would not erupt after what had happened

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Speaker 1: in this country? Don Lemon was for a long time

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Speaker 1: America's only black primetime inchor. He now inchors Don Lemon

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Speaker 1: Tonight on CNN every weeknight and serves as a CNN correspondent.

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Speaker 1: Over the course of his career, Lemon has been called

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Speaker 1: many terrible things, some of which you will hear him

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Speaker 1: say throughout the episode. Now, I'm just talking about the

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Speaker 1: last eight months. I'm not talking about all the stuff

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Speaker 1: that we dealt with before, the fake news and people

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Speaker 1: yelling at us on the street and people calling me

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Speaker 1: nigger and fag and all kinds of things, and your

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Speaker 1: fake news and all of that. Never before that I've

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Speaker 1: been in this business since nineteen ninety one have I

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Speaker 1: ever had to deal with the crap that I've had

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Speaker 1: to deal with over the last four years. It is disgusting.

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Speaker 1: Don Lemon just dropped a deeply personal and reflective book

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Speaker 1: called This Is the Fire What I Say to My

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Speaker 1: Friends about racism. He and I sat down to discuss

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Speaker 1: his experience as a black gay man, the racism and

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Speaker 1: homophobia he's faced, he's witnessed, he's battled against, and how

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Speaker 1: the anti racist struggle includes the struggle against homophobia, transphobia,

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Speaker 1: and all forms of bigotry targeting members of the LGBTQ community.

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Speaker 1: Don thank you so much for taking some time before

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Speaker 1: we jump into conversation. Yesterday was the anniversary of George

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Speaker 1: Floyd's murderer, and I'm just curious, what were you feeling

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Speaker 1: then about that anniversary and thinking and reflecting on and

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Speaker 1: what are you thinking I'm feeling now. I couldn't believe

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Speaker 1: that it had been a year. Yeah. Yeah, even though

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Speaker 1: you didn't feel like a year, it felt like so

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Speaker 1: much had happened. We had a verdict, we had an insurrection,

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Speaker 1: we had a trial, we had an election. So much

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Speaker 1: has gone on. But yeah, it just brought me back

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Speaker 1: to where I was a year ago. I thought about

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Speaker 1: being in quarantine and not being able to see my

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Speaker 1: loved ones, and then watching this man die in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a street and very few people, very few

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Speaker 1: people then at least have the tenacity or gumption, whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to call it, to make an excuse for it,

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Speaker 1: and now so many people are So I was sad,

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Speaker 1: obviously that George Floyd was dead. I was happy that

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Speaker 1: the verdict had happened, and was looking over the last

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Speaker 1: year wondering what's going to happen next. Were you thinking,

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Speaker 1: especially as summer demonstrations spread around the country and the

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Speaker 1: levels of awareness of systemic racism grew, did you think

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Speaker 1: that we would be at a different place now? Are

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Speaker 1: you surprised that many cases were still arguing over whether

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Speaker 1: systemic racism diedn't existing. Well, Look, I'm a man of

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Speaker 1: a certain age, which means I've been around for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and I've seen a lot, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that things would change, Yes, And I think that it

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Speaker 1: was a significant moment. Absolutely, did I think that this

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Speaker 1: would end racism. I know that's not what you're asking me. No.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just as Obama's election his presidency didn't make

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Speaker 1: me think that, oh my gosh, we're all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden living in a post racial society. Deep down, I

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Speaker 1: hope that they would change, even but I think even

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Speaker 1: deeper down, I knew that racism runs so deeply in

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Speaker 1: our society and in our culture that it was sadly

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Speaker 1: going to take more than the death of one black

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Speaker 1: man in the middle of a street with a knee

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Speaker 1: on his neck for nine minutes and twenty nine seconds

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Speaker 1: actually make a difference. Now, every little bit counts, don't

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Speaker 1: get me wrong. And I think that in order to

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Speaker 1: honor George Floyd and the many, many people who were

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Speaker 1: out there trying to do the right thing or doing

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Speaker 1: the right thing, and trying to move society and the

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Speaker 1: culture along, we must be respectful and optimistic and supportive

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Speaker 1: of those efforts and of George Floyd's life and of

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Speaker 1: his death for what that meant for the world. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't really have that much hope that things going

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Speaker 1: to change. Although I'm optimistic, it seems as if the

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Speaker 1: pulse of the racial story right now it's really the

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Speaker 1: attack on those of us who are acknowledging or recognizing

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Speaker 1: and studying racism. And indeed, I think people of a

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Speaker 1: certain age would know that this is typically what has

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Speaker 1: happened in the past. Yeah. Look, I felt that attack

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Speaker 1: for a long time. Is the only black person in

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Speaker 1: cable news, especially dealing with the environment that we're dealing with,

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Speaker 1: and especially over the last five years, I felt that

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Speaker 1: attack from Trump supporters, from Donald Trump himself. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not surprised by the attack. Sometimes I'm surprised by the

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Speaker 1: intensity of it, just how organized the attackers are. I'm

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Speaker 1: curious at a personal level, You've been the focus of

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Speaker 1: so many attacks for so long, and you know, over

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Speaker 1: the last year, in particular the last two years, I've

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Speaker 1: had to see some of that on some level, and

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Speaker 1: it's been an adjustment for me. How have you been

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Speaker 1: able to deal with it over the course of your

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Speaker 1: life in your career, Well, it's been really tough. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say that I'm glad. I'm not glad

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Speaker 1: about it. It makes me feel that I'm not alone anymore.

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Speaker 1: And listen, I wouldn't want those things to happen to

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Speaker 1: you or anyone of people who are trying to teach

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Speaker 1: people about race. But for the longest time, I felt

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Speaker 1: like I was the only person out there receiving and

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Speaker 1: sustaining those attacks. And sometimes, you know, when I got

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Speaker 1: criticism from my own I was like, if you guys

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Speaker 1: only knew what I went through, you would cut me

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Speaker 1: some slack, like this is crazy. But people now know,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's in large part because of the

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Speaker 1: last administration. I really knew, you know. I write in

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Speaker 1: my book that Donald Trump was the president we deserved

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Speaker 1: and probably the one we needed, because we had people

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Speaker 1: believing somehow that we were going to post racist society

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Speaker 1: and we were not. For white Americans, it was just

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Speaker 1: beneath the surface, and he uncovered that for Black Americans

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Speaker 1: it was I told you so, like we never thought

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Speaker 1: that it was gone. But how have I been able

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Speaker 1: to do it? It's been very stressful. I've aged, I'm

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Speaker 1: not kidding, I have a lot of therapy bills. I've

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Speaker 1: dealt with some depression, and the attacks have been consistent,

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Speaker 1: and now people see just how much the people who

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Speaker 1: are like our former president lie to people, and how

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Speaker 1: much they try to create their own reality. They try

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Speaker 1: to bend lies into their own reality. And so I

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Speaker 1: think it's out in the open and people can see

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Speaker 1: it as awful as it is, as awful as it's

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Speaker 1: been for me and for others. At least people know now,

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Speaker 1: and I think that those of us who are dealing

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Speaker 1: with this need to expose it and continue to let

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Speaker 1: people know about it so that hopefully it will make

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Speaker 1: a difference. And as much as certainly people are racist,

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Speaker 1: there's also, of course systemic homophobia. So how much for

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Speaker 1: you do you think the attacks have been because you're black,

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Speaker 1: because you're gay, because you're black and gay, and how

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Speaker 1: do you even come to terms with that? Listen, I'm

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Speaker 1: attacked more for my blackness than for my gayness, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't negate the homophobia. I've often said for years now,

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Speaker 1: I think for the last ten years or so that

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Speaker 1: the criticism of me is often steeped in racism and homophobia.

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Speaker 1: If you look at social media, if you look at

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Speaker 1: even things that people write about me and legacy media

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Speaker 1: or say about me, they don't even recognize their own

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Speaker 1: racism and homophobia, So I think it's both. I think

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Speaker 1: the homophobia actually helps with the bigots because it's another

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Speaker 1: layer on top of their bigotry that they can add to, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know that in word or that bag or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So I think that they get off on it. Look

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Speaker 1: it's a double negative if you look at it that way.

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Speaker 1: I choose to look at as a double positive. Now.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to come out for the longest time

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Speaker 1: because I was already black, and I said, Okay, I'm black,

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Speaker 1: Do I really need another strike? Now I welcome it

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Speaker 1: because it's made me who I am, and it's given

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Speaker 1: me the urgency that I needed in order to be

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Speaker 1: able to use my platform in a way that I

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Speaker 1: think is more informative and that is more useful to

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Speaker 1: people who are like me. June, of course is Pride month,

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Speaker 1: and you of course going to have some people who

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Speaker 1: may visit some parades or may get some rainbow colors.

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Speaker 1: But I suspect if they truly committed to the rights

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Speaker 1: of the LGBTQ community and the freedom and power folks

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Speaker 1: should be thinking much broader than that performative or symbolic way.

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Speaker 1: Although that's not to say that that isn't important. That

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Speaker 1: certainly has its level of importance, But what do you

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Speaker 1: tend to do and what do you talk about? That's

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Speaker 1: a performative part before the question, because as you were

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Speaker 1: saying that, you made me think about what happened after

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Speaker 1: George Floyd. And I'm sure you dealt with this as well,

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Speaker 1: when people, especially your white friends or white people you know,

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Speaker 1: reaching out to you saying, oh my god, this is awful.

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Speaker 1: I don't want my kids to live in this world

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Speaker 1: or grow up in this world. I don't have a

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Speaker 1: language of a tool to be able to teach my

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Speaker 1: kids or just to be able to talk about or

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Speaker 1: have these conversations. And initially, you know, I mean, it

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Speaker 1: came from a good place, but it was performative. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And what people didn't realize or don't realize I think

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Speaker 1: many people, is that the work goes on beyond just

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Speaker 1: the performative part of it, the part that draws you in,

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Speaker 1: makes you realize, like, oh my gosh, the thing that

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Speaker 1: makes you realize that maybe black people were telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the same thing with Gay Pride. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have this one month and really like a weekend

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Speaker 1: right where people all good into the streets and they

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Speaker 1: do whatever, and they had this performative thing. Yeah I

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Speaker 1: support my gay brothers and sisters. But for any marginalized community,

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Speaker 1: you have to do that consistently, which is what your

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Speaker 1: whole concept of anti racism is about. It's the same thing.

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Speaker 1: You have to be anti bigoted, anti homophobic twenty four

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Speaker 1: to seven. You've got to reach beyond just the performative aspect.

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Speaker 1: Everywhere you go, oh my gosh, this is so awful,

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Speaker 1: or yeah, I support my gay brothers and sisters. Yeah

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Speaker 1: you should get married. But then when people make homophobic comments,

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Speaker 1: or you see someone being homophobic in the workplace or

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Speaker 1: whatever it may be, you need to call it out

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Speaker 1: and be anti homophobic definitely. And it seems as if

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Speaker 1: when people think of women, they think of white women,

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Speaker 1: and when people think of gay men and lesbian women,

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Speaker 1: they also think of white white age. And part of

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Speaker 1: that is this whitewashing of LGBTQ history. In many ways,

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Speaker 1: the history has been centered around these sis gendered white men.

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Speaker 1: And so how do we sort of break free of that.

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Speaker 1: How do people really begin to see and denormalize whiteness,

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Speaker 1: specifically when they think of the LGBTQ community. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think that has to be done, just as we do

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Speaker 1: it with black history as well. We need to teach people.

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Speaker 1: People need to know about Bayard Rustin, Yes, right, people

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Speaker 1: need to know about all the and I call them

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Speaker 1: my sisters who fought during Stone Wall, and all the

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Speaker 1: drag queens who led the movement, and there trance brothers

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Speaker 1: and sisters who have been leading the movement, literally putting

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Speaker 1: their bodies and lives on the line throughout this whole

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ movement. We have to teach that that has to

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Speaker 1: be part of history. Years ago, when I was out,

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Speaker 1: I didn't talk about it, but I would so be

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Speaker 1: out and I would host, you know, for my local

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Speaker 1: stations in Chicago or Philadelphia, wherever it was. I would

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Speaker 1: host these gay pride events and I would typically be

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Speaker 1: one of the only people of color in the room

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Speaker 1: because black as and white as didn't really intermingle, and

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Speaker 1: it was kind of a class thing. And so I

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Speaker 1: think we need to teach history. You know, if you

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Speaker 1: really want to know how the civil rights movement for

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Speaker 1: the March on Washington, the person who created that and

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Speaker 1: facilitated it was a black gay man who the LGBTQ

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Speaker 1: movement took their cues from and are doing the same

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Speaker 1: sorts of things because of bad Rustin's work, that we

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Speaker 1: have effective civil rights legislation, no compromise, no filibuckt and

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Speaker 1: that it did include public accommodation, deson housing, des agraded

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Speaker 1: education as they and the rights to vote. What do

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Speaker 1: you if you get people to appreciate the contributions of black, gay, lesbian, bisexual,

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Speaker 1: transgender men and women, then you can't help but include

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Speaker 1: them and not exclude them from the process exactly. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, as you know, they are all

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Speaker 1: these current efforts to ban books in schools, in libraries

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Speaker 1: that teach about racism and homophobian, transphobia, those three types

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Speaker 1: of books. And so we're in this moment right now

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Speaker 1: which there's all these organized and unorganized, formal and informal

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Speaker 1: efforts to ensure that kids are not systematically learning this history,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the history of folks who are fighting for

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Speaker 1: gay rights or the history of folks fighting for black rights.

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Speaker 1: What is it about blackness and gayness and its intersection

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Speaker 1: that people especially do not want their kids to be

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Speaker 1: exposed to fear. It's fear it's religion, it's control. People

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Speaker 1: are afraid of things that they don't know, or they're

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Speaker 1: afraid of things that are inside of them that they

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Speaker 1: haven't yet explored. They have been told is because of

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Speaker 1: our puritanical so called founding of the country that you know,

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Speaker 1: we cannot explore those things. Because if people explore those

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Speaker 1: things and they really learn who they are, and they

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Speaker 1: learn that sexuality is fluid, and they learn that blackness

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Speaker 1: is actually good and not bad, that they may be

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Speaker 1: freed from the control of society and the control of

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Speaker 1: organized religion. And so that's what they're afraid of. And

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Speaker 1: they're also afraid of not having a preeminent voice. The

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Speaker 1: thing that people look up to is what heterosexual, whiteness, christianity,

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Speaker 1: and so what organized religion does is it keeps you

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Speaker 1: from exploring those things, or understanding those things, or even

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Speaker 1: questioning those things. And there's a reason that that is done.

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Speaker 1: People want the status quo. If you were the person

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Speaker 1: that has a pre eminent voice, the person who has

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Speaker 1: all the access in the ease in society, who has

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Speaker 1: the control in society, even why would you want that

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Speaker 1: to change? Exactly? I don't know if I ever told

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Speaker 1: you this done when I was researching for Stamp from

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Speaker 1: the beginning, this history of anti black racist ideas. That's

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Speaker 1: when I first learned that in parts of the United

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Speaker 1: States and parts of Western Europe, being gay or being

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Speaker 1: trans was a crime. Like literally it was a crime,

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Speaker 1: just as in many ways to be black is to

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Speaker 1: be a criminal in this society. And so as a result,

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Speaker 1: there's been this consistent and constant over policing and all

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Speaker 1: sorts of surveillance historically on the LGBTQ community as well

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Speaker 1: as the black community and certainly black and people of

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Speaker 1: color within these communities. And it's not so far removed.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of still operationalizes as a crime. Like people

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Speaker 1: still treat being trans as almost like a crime against

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Speaker 1: society and respond accordingly. People still treat yes, trans yes,

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Speaker 1: and also gay people gay people too, yeah, and black people. Listen,

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Speaker 1: if you look at our criminal justice system, right that

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Speaker 1: the whole process of having a jury of your peers

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Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, in the way it's designed,

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Speaker 1: it was designed for a certain group of people. It

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Speaker 1: certainly wasn't gay people, and it wasn't black people. Was

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Speaker 1: for white head of sexual people. And so if you

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Speaker 1: look at the way people are treated in the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system. There is a huge degree of homophobia that

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Speaker 1: is layered on top of how justice is meeted out

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Speaker 1: in this country. There's a huge degree of racism that

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Speaker 1: sprinkled on top of how justice is handed out in

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Speaker 1: this country. If you go into a courtroom, people can

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Speaker 1: play on the juries homophobia, People can play on the

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Speaker 1: juries racism, and they don't even have to be subtle

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Speaker 1: about it, and it is acceptable. It's acceptable in the media,

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Speaker 1: it's acceptable and broader culture because they say, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, of course those flags are those in words,

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Speaker 1: are the black people or whatever, because that's how it

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Speaker 1: should be. That's why they think it should be. Like

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Speaker 1: most people in this country, quite honestly, haven't even examined

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Speaker 1: their homophobia. And that goes for black and white people

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Speaker 1: all a different ethnicity haven't even begun to examine their homophobia.

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Speaker 1: And most people haven't even begun to examine their racism

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Speaker 1: because they are afraid. This goes back to your other

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Speaker 1: question of what they're going to find out about themselves.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're examining your racism and you find out, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe I actually am racist, or maybe I actually do

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Speaker 1: have racial bias. What does that say about you? Doesn't

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Speaker 1: put you in a good place. If you start to

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Speaker 1: examine your homophobia and you realize, well, maybe I do

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Speaker 1: have some homophobic tendencies, What does that say about you?

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Speaker 1: That makes you re examine your entire world? And so

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Speaker 1: that's where all of that fear comes from. So we

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Speaker 1: haven't even begun to do that. But let me say this,

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Speaker 1: if anyone wants to examine blackness and gayness, pick up

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Speaker 1: Giovanni's Room, First Boy, written by black gay man James

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Speaker 1: Bowen James Baldwin. You won't even know that James Baldwin

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Speaker 1: is black. When I first read gioboness Room, I think

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Speaker 1: it's like high school or freshman year in college. It

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Speaker 1: was just so beautifully written, and it was just a

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Speaker 1: beautiful love story that happened to be about two men,

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Speaker 1: and neither character in the book was black. If you

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Speaker 1: thought you would be like, well, who is this blonde man,

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Speaker 1: you know, American white man writing about his love affair

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Speaker 1: with this person in France? And then you start to

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Speaker 1: read the Baldwin cannon, you pick up the fire next time,

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Speaker 1: and then you begin to realize, well, wow, this is

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Speaker 1: a gay and black man who's writing about the beauty

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Speaker 1: of blackness and the beauty of homosexuality. It may open

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Speaker 1: your eyes and the homosexual questions, like what there's on

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Speaker 1: the racial question, Nobody, no man, and no woman's precisely

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Speaker 1: what they think they are. Love it's where you find it.

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Speaker 1: They don't know where it will carry you. And it

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Speaker 1: is a terrifying thing. Love, it's the only human possibility.

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Speaker 1: But it started lying. And a man can vote in

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Speaker 1: love with a man, and woman can vute another woman.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing anybody can do about it. It's not in

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Speaker 1: the problence of the law. It's only to do with

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Speaker 1: the church. And if you lie about that, If you

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Speaker 1: lie about that, you lie about everything. And no one

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Speaker 1: has a right to try to tell another human being

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Speaker 1: whom he or she cattle should love. So if we

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Speaker 1: want to help in all of those aspects that you're

404
00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:47,036
Speaker 1: talking about, first pick up Gabanna's room, then pick up

405
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Speaker 1: the fire next time, then go to another country, and

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Speaker 1: then go to go tell it on the mountain just

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Speaker 1: above my head, or any of those beautiful books by

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Speaker 1: James Ballwin, and then you'll start to get it. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I went off on a ramp bibro No. I mean

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Speaker 1: you gave us a reading list. You gave folks to reading.

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Speaker 1: Just read everything. James Ball was the price of the ticket,

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Speaker 1: and just go on, just read it. It seems to

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Speaker 1: me also because of the fear that you describe, the

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Speaker 1: fear that people have of LGBTQ people, and the fear

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Speaker 1: that people have of black people, of Latin X people

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Speaker 1: of Latin X immigrants, of Native Americans, of Asian Americans,

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Speaker 1: that that is part of the reason why there's not

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Speaker 1: an effort to ensure that those people are no longer

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Speaker 1: subjected to police violence or other forms of violence because

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Speaker 1: of their sexual orientation, or because of control, control, control,

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00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:44,956
Speaker 1: fear and control. Those people must be controlled, because if

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Speaker 1: they're not controlled, then what are they going to do?

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Speaker 1: Perhaps they will somehow find agency in society, which means

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Speaker 1: that society will change and we will no longer have

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Speaker 1: control over the levels of society. I mean, that's how

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Speaker 1: I see it. I think it's just as simple as

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00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:05,996
Speaker 1: that people are afraid. Listen, think about it. If you

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00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:09,676
Speaker 1: came to a country and conquered it and took land

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00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:15,196
Speaker 1: from people, subjugated them, enslaved them, wouldn't you be afraid

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00:26:15,236 --> 00:26:17,596
Speaker 1: that maybe if those people found some sort of freedom

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00:26:17,596 --> 00:26:20,356
Speaker 1: and autonomy, that they may do the same thing to you.

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00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:23,916
Speaker 1: Even though that's irrational. That would never happen. People would

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00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:28,076
Speaker 1: never start enslaving white people or with any sort of

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00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:32,756
Speaker 1: monumental or profound effect, be able to discriminate against white people.

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00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:37,476
Speaker 1: It's an irrational fear, and it's control it is. So

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00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:40,476
Speaker 1: what about those folks who aren't just going to be

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00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:46,116
Speaker 1: performative during Pride Month, who truly do want to fight

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00:26:46,116 --> 00:26:51,556
Speaker 1: against homophobia and transphobia? But they have this blind spot because,

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00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:54,956
Speaker 1: as we talked about earlier, when they think of the

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00:26:55,076 --> 00:26:59,076
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus community, they really think of white people and

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00:26:59,116 --> 00:27:04,636
Speaker 1: they can't see how that racist idea is preventing them

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00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:07,836
Speaker 1: from seeing people of color who are gay and trans

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00:27:07,916 --> 00:27:11,316
Speaker 1: and lesbian, and like, how do people overcome that? How

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00:27:11,316 --> 00:27:14,556
Speaker 1: do people recognize that there's no way to truly fight

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00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:20,156
Speaker 1: for all people in the LGPT community if you also

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00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:23,516
Speaker 1: have racist ideas, how do you get people to see it?

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00:27:24,276 --> 00:27:27,636
Speaker 1: But listen, then it's just racism or homophobia by degrees. Right,

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00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:30,716
Speaker 1: It's not that you're anti racist or you're anti homophobic,

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00:27:30,956 --> 00:27:33,756
Speaker 1: it's just that you're just not as racist as everybody else,

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00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:36,596
Speaker 1: but not as homophobic as everybody else. If you don't

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00:27:36,596 --> 00:27:38,956
Speaker 1: see that, and if you don't understand it, I think

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00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:41,356
Speaker 1: the way that you get people to do that is

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00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:43,916
Speaker 1: quite simply by pointing it out. The only way that

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00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:46,516
Speaker 1: we're going to solve this problem in a substantial, in

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00:27:46,596 --> 00:27:51,356
Speaker 1: a profound way, is going to be through relationships with people.

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00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:54,476
Speaker 1: For people to be in relationship with, in friendship with

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00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:57,036
Speaker 1: an acquaintance with people who don't look like them. And

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00:27:57,076 --> 00:27:58,716
Speaker 1: that means if you're straight and you don't have a

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00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,076
Speaker 1: gay friend, get one. If you're gay and you don't

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00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:02,516
Speaker 1: have a straight friend, which I think it is hard

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00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:05,796
Speaker 1: to do to get and I think that is the

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00:28:05,836 --> 00:28:08,356
Speaker 1: way that you're going to do it. It's really interesting.

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00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:11,716
Speaker 1: I believe racism is like a spell. It's programmed into

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00:28:11,756 --> 00:28:15,236
Speaker 1: you for so long. It's just ingrained. It's like Genie

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00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:17,356
Speaker 1: or be which you gotta snap out of it. You

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00:28:17,436 --> 00:28:22,036
Speaker 1: gotta people start to do racist things or homophobic things,

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00:28:22,556 --> 00:28:25,276
Speaker 1: Hey snap out of it. They're being homophobic, and then

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00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:28,276
Speaker 1: they get their attention and you explain to them why

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00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:31,276
Speaker 1: they're being racist or homophobic, and then sometimes they'll get it.

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00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:33,236
Speaker 1: And then when they start to get it, they become

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00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:36,196
Speaker 1: more aware, and then you will see them become the

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00:28:36,316 --> 00:28:41,076
Speaker 1: anti whatever it is, homophobic or racist, definitely, You know, Don,

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00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:44,596
Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure to sit down and wrap with

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00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:49,236
Speaker 1: you and to think about these larger critical issues and

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00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:51,796
Speaker 1: just think about how we can transform and make the

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00:28:51,836 --> 00:29:01,716
Speaker 1: lives of so many different people better. I am deeply

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00:29:01,756 --> 00:29:06,636
Speaker 1: grateful to Don Lemon for a very profound conversation. Don's

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00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:10,196
Speaker 1: experience has proved that individual success in fame are not

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00:29:10,396 --> 00:29:16,516
Speaker 1: enough on their own to vanquish homophobia and transphobia and racism.

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00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:19,356
Speaker 1: According to a recent survey, more than one in three

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00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:25,116
Speaker 1: LGBTQ Americans faced bigotry in the past year. Gender nonconforming people,

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00:29:25,276 --> 00:29:30,196
Speaker 1: transgender people, people of color in women experience the highest levels.

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00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:35,396
Speaker 1: More than half of LGBTQ Americans hit a personal relationship

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00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:39,756
Speaker 1: to avoid homophobia, and nearly half of transgender people avoided

485
00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:44,596
Speaker 1: doctors offices to protect themselves from transphobia. As I say

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00:29:44,636 --> 00:29:49,516
Speaker 1: these words, at least twenty eight trans and gender nonconforming Americans,

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00:29:49,916 --> 00:29:53,716
Speaker 1: mostly Black and Latin X transgender women, have been killed

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00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:58,076
Speaker 1: this year. To be anti racist is to actively oppose

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00:29:58,276 --> 00:30:04,036
Speaker 1: homophobia and transphobia in ourselves and in our society. Whether

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00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:08,156
Speaker 1: it's a homophobic joke from a friend or transphobic policy

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00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:11,836
Speaker 1: in our community that trans women are kids, it is

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00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:18,396
Speaker 1: our responsibility to call out injustice. The US Senate is

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00:30:18,396 --> 00:30:22,436
Speaker 1: currently considering the Equality Act, passed by the House of

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00:30:22,516 --> 00:30:27,276
Speaker 1: Representatives in February twenty twenty one. If the Equality Act

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00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:32,996
Speaker 1: becomes law, it would prohibit discrimination based on sex, sexual orientation,

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00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:38,756
Speaker 1: and gender identity in areas including public accommodations and facilities, education,

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00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:44,556
Speaker 1: federal funding, employment, housing credit, and the jury system. Of course,

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00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:48,516
Speaker 1: one piece of legislation won't root out homophobia and transphobia

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00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:53,596
Speaker 1: and United States, but securing such basic protections for LGBTQ

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00:30:53,836 --> 00:30:59,756
Speaker 1: people is long overdue. Queer folks, especially queer folks of color,

501
00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:03,156
Speaker 1: have been fighting for a long time. I'm thinking about

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00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:06,956
Speaker 1: Audre Lord, the women of the Kombahee River Collective, black

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00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:11,076
Speaker 1: self identified drag queens like to p. Johnson, Latin X

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00:31:11,156 --> 00:31:16,036
Speaker 1: trans women like Sylvia rivera Native lesbians like Barbara May Cameron,

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00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:20,676
Speaker 1: black bisexuals like a Billy Jones Henning, an Asian gay

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00:31:20,676 --> 00:31:24,916
Speaker 1: men like Kyoshi Kromia. The fight for racial justice and

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00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:30,596
Speaker 1: LGBTQ justice are inseparable. Collective action frees us all. As

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00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:35,236
Speaker 1: Audrey Lord once wrote, without community, there is no liberation.

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00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:40,236
Speaker 1: To fight. To liberate the community is to be anti racist,

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00:31:50,316 --> 00:31:53,156
Speaker 1: be anti racists. In production of Pushkin Industries and Our

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00:31:53,236 --> 00:31:55,916
Speaker 1: Heart Media, it is written and hosted by doctor Ebramex

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00:31:55,996 --> 00:31:59,916
Speaker 1: Kindy and produced by Alexandra Garriton with associate producer Brittany Brown.

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00:32:00,396 --> 00:32:03,276
Speaker 1: Our engineer has been Talladay, Our editor is Julia Barton

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00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:06,916
Speaker 1: and our showrunners Sasha Mathist. Our executive producers are only

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00:32:06,956 --> 00:32:09,956
Speaker 1: Time Mullard and Mio Lobell. Many thanks to Tammy Win

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00:32:10,156 --> 00:32:12,476
Speaker 1: and doctor Heather Sandford at the Center for Anti Racist

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00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:15,876
Speaker 1: Research at Boston University for all of the help at Pushkin.

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00:32:15,916 --> 00:32:20,316
Speaker 1: Thanks to Heather Fame, Carlie mcgleiori, Sean Schnarz, and Jacob Wiseberg.

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00:32:20,796 --> 00:32:23,196
Speaker 1: You can find doctor Kendy on Twitter at d r

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00:32:23,316 --> 00:32:27,076
Speaker 1: Abram and on Instagram at abram x k. You can

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00:32:27,116 --> 00:32:30,516
Speaker 1: find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods. You

522
00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:33,636
Speaker 1: can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm.

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00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:36,196
Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the our Heart

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00:32:36,276 --> 00:32:39,556
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen,