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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who

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Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff, your weekly podcast that is different than

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Speaker 1: most weeks because well, whatever it's called. You already listen

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Speaker 1: to part one. You know why it's complicated. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest today is Lori Penny.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Lauri, Hi, How are you doing what she is?

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Speaker 1: Look?

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Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say that she's cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have like a she's interesting.

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Speaker 2: You don't think it's cooled to tell lies?

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Speaker 1: No, I genuinely hate liars. I think it's one of

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Speaker 1: the most immoral things you can do.

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Speaker 2: And yet you write fiction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called fiction when I write it, But those

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Speaker 1: are lies.

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Speaker 2: You understand that that's not real.

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Speaker 1: That didn't happen, right, So, but like if I try

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Speaker 1: to convince people that something that didn't happen is true,

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Speaker 1: especially if I'm trying to like put them in harm's way,

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Speaker 1: like hey, everyone, you should pick up guns and go fight,

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Speaker 1: or you should risk your job and risk starving to death.

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Speaker 1: I should tell you truth. This is something that I

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Speaker 1: believe very strongly. I think that this is my least

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Speaker 1: popular ethical opinion. Actually, this is the one that most

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Speaker 1: of my friends get mad at me about but I

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Speaker 1: hold to it.

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Speaker 2: So you're telling me that you have numerous friends who

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Speaker 2: take issue with the idea that it's bad to light

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Speaker 2: of people if they're going to be sent into a

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Speaker 2: violent action.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So it's like more as a broader thing, might.

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Speaker 2: Mind, Are these friends real or are they just voices

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Speaker 2: that surround you where you live in the woods.

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Speaker 1: Those are separate, and those are just as real as anything.

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Speaker 2: Else, right, Okay, understood, Well they're not They might not

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Speaker 2: be real, but they are true in their way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, My like general working theory is

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't lie to someone you're not willing to punch,

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Speaker 1: or that you wouldn't punch if you could get away

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Speaker 1: with it. Right, So, if someone's exerting power over you,

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Speaker 1: you should lie to them if that's the safest way

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Speaker 1: out of a situation. Right, Like it's illegal to light

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Speaker 1: to cops, but it would be ethical to light to cops. Right,

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Speaker 1: they're exerting power over you. And so when people lie

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Speaker 1: in when they're trapped in like patriarchal relationships, or when

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Speaker 1: people lie to people exerting power over them, it makes

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Speaker 1: some sense. But when you lie to people who have

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Speaker 1: less power than you. I think it's punching down. And

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Speaker 1: I think that people make the decisions that they make

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Speaker 1: in their life based on the best available information. And

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Speaker 1: I think that not telling people things is totally legitimate right.

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Speaker 1: Not everyone has a right to know everything. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not like trying to come like super black and white

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Speaker 1: about this. I like understand why people make certain kinds

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Speaker 1: of lies at various times to handle social situations in

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Speaker 1: certain ways, but like, no, overall, I'm not a big fan.

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Speaker 2: I understand, but I don't agree. It's one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons we get on. So you're saying that in some

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Speaker 2: ways a lie is a form of violence. It's just

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Speaker 2: sometimes a preferable form of violence to physical violence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would. I would say it's morally comparable to violence.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I have a different take on what

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Speaker 2: violence is. Let's go ahead with the story, which may

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Speaker 2: or may not be a lie.

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Speaker 1: Fair enough, But what isn't a lie unless it is

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Speaker 1: a lie? Is that our producers Ian Hi, Ian, Hey,

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Speaker 1: how are you you feel like pretty confident that you're

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Speaker 1: you're real?

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Speaker 3: Last time I checked? But I don't know. According to

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Speaker 3: this story, anything can be true so I never.

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Speaker 2: Trust but verify. We're entering an age of real, real, serious,

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Speaker 2: deep fakes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 2: And Ian Johnson stands made up. I'm going to say,

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Speaker 2: like George Jones.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I said Laurie Penny to Margaret Kiljoy.

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Speaker 2: Both of us have made up our names.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 2: That's that's a true falsehood.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Another true non falsehood is that everyone has

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Speaker 1: to say hi to Rory, our audio engineer. Hi, Rory, Hi, Rory.

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Speaker 3: Hi Rory. You're doing a great job.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. And our theme music was written for

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Speaker 1: us by n woman. And we were talking about Mother Jones,

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Speaker 1: but let's talk about the first Mother Jones because it's

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Speaker 1: not the Mother Jones we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Oh all right, because she stole that name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean again, I can't prove she stole the name.

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Speaker 1: I can prove there was another Mother Jones with a

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Speaker 1: pretty similar vibe writing immediately before her in the same sphere, right,

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Speaker 1: because ten years before Mother Jones became Mother Jones, there

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Speaker 1: was missus Henry B. Jones, the wife of a coal

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Speaker 1: miner who edited the Ladies Department of the Railroad Brakeman's Journal.

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Speaker 1: What Yeah, newspapers were such a thing that you could

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Speaker 1: have a job where it's like, I'm the ladies department

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Speaker 1: of the Railroad Brakeman's Journal that goes out to all

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Speaker 1: the railroad breakmen and that Okay.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Margaret, Like, sorry, I'm a journalist. I've come through

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Speaker 2: the tiniest magazines for the silliest things. That wasn't the

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Speaker 2: substance of my screen. But I'm really really charmed that you.

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Speaker 1: Thought that it was uhuh wait then what is? What

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Speaker 1: was the look?

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Speaker 2: It's just a very very very similar story and kind

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Speaker 2: of I mean, I don't like saying bullsy, but kind

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Speaker 2: of bullsy. Yeah, there's some ovaries on that, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: this sounds like a good vibe. I'm going to take that.

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Speaker 2: That's fine now, I liked it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. She edited the ladies department for the Railroad Breakman Journal.

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Speaker 1: She wrote for other union magazines, and folks would write

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Speaker 1: to her as dear mother Jones, and she signed her

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Speaker 1: articles mother Jones. She wrote God America's is Bill Different.

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Speaker 1: She wrote religious leftist tradwife poetry for about six years.

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Speaker 2: Do we have any of it?

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Speaker 1: There is? Actually, yeah, there's some of it in the

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Speaker 1: book that I was reading called Mother Jones by Elliot J.

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Speaker 1: Gorn has some of original Mother Jones's poetry in it.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love eighteen hundred socialist poetry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this one's just like very like tradwife, too right.

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Speaker 1: It's like very traditional. The first Mother Jones even more

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Speaker 1: than the second Mother Jones very much into women's place,

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Speaker 1: being as the homemaker. The strong man would do their

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Speaker 1: strong man jobs while the devoted woman would take care

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Speaker 1: of the home. This is how later Mother Jones presented

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Speaker 1: things as well. But Mother Jones Junior, as I'm going

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Speaker 1: to call her, was way more into cussing and shit

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Speaker 1: than original Mother Jones. Although it's funny, too, right, because

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Speaker 1: you're like people keep talking about like, holy shit, Mother

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Speaker 1: Jones would cuss. I found a couple transcripts. She says,

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Speaker 1: goddamn a lot. I feel like the bar has moved

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Speaker 1: on what counts is cussing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the standards are a little different now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so that's her prehistory. You know, she gets

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Speaker 1: this name when she is fifty seven. We first really

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Speaker 1: hear about her in eighteen ninety four, and it's part

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Speaker 1: of Coxy's army because in eighteen ninety four, a small

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Speaker 1: business owner named Jacob Coxy was like, well, the government

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Speaker 1: should make jobs for the unemployed, and people were like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. I don't like starving to death and

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Speaker 1: scrambling for work and being mistreated. So they formed up

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Speaker 1: Coxy's army and they marched to Washington. This was not

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Speaker 1: a they didn't have guns and shit. This is like

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Speaker 1: a marching to Washington's like a big America thing, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard of some marches on Washington. The Chipmunks,

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Speaker 2: I believe, march to Washington.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, probably with with Duck Wing.

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Speaker 2: Duck and Chippendale, the Rescue Rangers.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say Martin Luther King Junior, but yeah, no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: also Darkling duck Into Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I don't mean to disrespect American history and that way,

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Speaker 2: genuinely truly, I like, I'm too much of a paladin

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Speaker 2: to be like that's that's that's But you just got

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Speaker 2: to understand that most of my early understanding of American

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Speaker 2: history came through the medium of nineties cartoons.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Same, yeah, right, it's called hegemony. Although I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: that's how it's pronounced.

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Speaker 1: I think it's how it's pronounced.

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Speaker 3: Yeah it sounds right.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, yeah, I thought it might be hegemony.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe Britain hegemony.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that sounds more British.

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Speaker 1: Let's just decide that that's how British pronounce it.

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Speaker 2: This is like when I tried to persuade people for

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Speaker 2: a whole week. I managed to persuade people I lived

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Speaker 2: with in quarantine that we called the dishwasher the bubble cupboard.

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes Lyne is funny.

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Speaker 3: I would believe it.

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Speaker 1: I went on this long thing about Lyne. I think

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Speaker 1: sometimes you can like prank people, right, yeah that is

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Speaker 1: really funny, because yeah, that would have worked on me.

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Speaker 2: But look, it was. It was like week three of

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Speaker 2: COVID lockdown, and you know you've met British people in

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Speaker 2: LA presumably, yes, Like it's amazing. All you have to

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Speaker 2: do to make someone stay a little bit better is

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Speaker 2: turn up and say stuff, any stuff. You just say

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Speaker 2: stuff in your normal voice, and then people are pleased.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we love it, we love that stuff.

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Speaker 2: For Yeah, it was pandemic. People needed something, so I

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Speaker 2: just dialed it up quite a lot for a few weeks.

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Speaker 2: I was happy to do it. I was happy to

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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 1: Service.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're providing a service. There was you're a central

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Speaker 3: worker in.

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Speaker 2: My own way. That's where bubble Covered came from. And

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Speaker 2: Trouser Beast, which I also made up. Oh that guy

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Speaker 2: is a real Trouser Beasts. Just it just sounds like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there was context, but yeah, no, nobody says that about anyone.

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Speaker 2: It's it's it's a falseood. It's all.

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Speaker 1: One time Laurie and I were walking through Boston and

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Speaker 1: this punk who was asking for money came up and

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Speaker 1: was like, Hey, do you have any money? And Laurie

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Speaker 1: was like, oh no, I'm sorry I don't. And then

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Speaker 1: this punk was really mad and was like fuck you

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Speaker 1: and your fake accent, and Laurie is like, this is.

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Speaker 3: My real voice.

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Speaker 2: I was raised in the woods by aristocratic mice, the truth.

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Speaker 2: That's why I have a lot of little jackets but

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Speaker 2: no table manners anywhere.

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Speaker 1: So the Coxy's Army, one of the people who helped

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Speaker 1: this Trouser Beast army was Mother Jones. And this is

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Speaker 1: probably true because Okay, so they're marching on Washington and

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Speaker 1: the sympathetic folks who provide resources for them along the way.

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Speaker 1: So what Mother Jones figured out is that she could

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Speaker 1: go a couple days ahead of them and talk up

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Speaker 1: how amazing these people are and how they need your help,

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Speaker 1: and raise money for them. And look, I don't know

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Speaker 1: whether or not she skimmed off the top. I do

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Speaker 1: know she did not keep records of the money that

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Speaker 1: she fundraised, and she would regularly use it to provide

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Speaker 1: for herself and her own needs. And that also she

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Speaker 1: was later kicked out of the Socialist Party for being

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Speaker 1: accused of stealing money. But there's no evidence. I love that.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about this as if I'm afraid Mother Jones

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Speaker 1: the person is going to sue me. Anyway. She figures

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Speaker 1: out really early on in her career. I mean she's

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Speaker 1: in she's fifty seven, but she's like, oh, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go travel around people eat up this old Irish

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Speaker 1: grandma thing, you know, and so I'm going to travel

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Speaker 1: ahead and help fundraise money. But then someone probably not her,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, bolted with all the money one time. Oh,

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Speaker 1: because they had fund raised a bunch of money, and

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Speaker 1: then someone bolted with the money, ah, right.

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Speaker 2: And they had to have it physically and it was

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Speaker 2: somewhere and someone nicked it.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, But they kept going on May Day, eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four, a few hundred of them made it to Washington.

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Speaker 1: Most of them dropped off and they were ignored, driven

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Speaker 1: off by cops, and their leaders were arrested, because that's

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Speaker 1: what happens when you marched to Washington in the United States.

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Speaker 1: But Mother Jones found her calling and she kept it

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Speaker 1: up for thirty years. She was very good at it.

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Speaker 1: Hermo was to basically be everywhere at once, sent to

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Speaker 1: herself in every struggle, and build up this persona as

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Speaker 1: Mother Jones and become one of the most famous people

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Speaker 1: in America, not just one of the most famous labor organizers,

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Speaker 1: but like just famous person. She was fucking good at

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Speaker 1: organizing and getting people out, and she was like got

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Speaker 1: people on strike and she got people to join unions.

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Speaker 1: In April eighteen ninety four, the same time as Coxey's

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Speaker 1: army was marching, the United mine Workers led a strike

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Speaker 1: of one hundred and twenty five thousand people. Alabama in

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Speaker 1: particular popped off with this strike and black and white

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Speaker 1: work march side by side, which rules. They were marching

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Speaker 1: against convict labor, which also rules. But then even then

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Speaker 1: they managed to do it where they're like their banner

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Speaker 1: says the convicts must go, as if the problem is

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Speaker 1: the convicts stealing their jobs.

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Speaker 2: You were so close. I know this is not a

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Speaker 2: good sign.

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Speaker 1: Mother Jones showed up fresh off of Coxey's army, even

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Speaker 1: before they made it to Washington. She's whatever. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying she's skipped off with the money, but I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying she didn't. And she saw what interracial solidarity could do,

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Speaker 1: and just black and white solidarity, but she was into it, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: and later Mexican solidarity. It's just like really specific anti Asian.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we haven't gotten to the San Francisco party.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, unless that was how she got her start, right.

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Speaker 1: The organizer, Eugene Debs was arrested from that strike. He's

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Speaker 1: one of the more famous labor guys in the US,

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Speaker 1: and Mother Jones organized a welcome home demonstration for him,

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Speaker 1: and the police tried to prevent him from speaking, and

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Speaker 1: she learned one of her powers. Mother Jones told the

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Speaker 1: cops that he would speaking and that was that, and

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Speaker 1: the authorities were cowed and let him talk.

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Speaker 3: Woh.

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Speaker 1: It was this stint in jail that turned Debs into

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Speaker 1: a socialist, and soon he was plotting a new and

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Speaker 1: better world with mother Jones. He always defended her, including

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Speaker 1: when all the socialists were like, but she's stealing all

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Speaker 1: the money. He's like, no, she wasn't, fuck you.

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Speaker 2: They were good, good buddies. Yeah, what's the age gap

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Speaker 2: there is? She like thirty years older than this guy.

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Speaker 1: I think I don't think they were historically close friends.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't think she's fucking anyone. That wasn't what

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Speaker 1: I wasn't playing because she hates loose women.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, well, but like younger guys, being mentored by

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Speaker 2: like angry grandma's is one of my favorite modes right now.

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Speaker 2: So I was hoping it was that, But you know,

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Speaker 2: there's other cool eatings.

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Speaker 1: She says she was at the big eighteen ninety six

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Speaker 1: populist convention in Saint Louis and then puts herself at

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Speaker 1: the center of that action. She might have been at

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Speaker 1: the convention, I don't know. She tried to convince them

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Speaker 1: from selling out, but then they did. The Populist party

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Speaker 1: was a thing in the nineteenth century. She never got

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Speaker 1: into like Marxism or other proper intellectual socialist tendencies. And

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Speaker 1: I actually think this is just kind of rules about her.

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Speaker 1: Her socialism was populist. It was homegrown American and it

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Speaker 1: emphasized the individual producer against big corporations.

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Speaker 2: It's the kind of socialism you can buy at a roadstand.

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Speaker 2: Well maybe not buy right, people make it in their gardens, right.

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Speaker 1: And it's like not against kind of a lot of

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Speaker 1: actually the Protestant work values that America was founded on,

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Speaker 1: like those didn't have to go more capitalists we actually

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Speaker 1: talked to in a recent episode, I remember which one about.

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Speaker 1: I think I was talking about the abolitionist movement and

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Speaker 1: Protestants versus Catholics and the abolitionist movement. But anyway, whatever, okay,

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Speaker 1: so sorry, no, no, it's the kind of thing I

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Speaker 1: can lose myself thinking about. So she started, rather other

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Speaker 1: people started, and she started selling a socialist newspaper and

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Speaker 1: selling subscriptions to folks. And this newspaper was called Appeal

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Speaker 1: to Reason, and it turns out to be like one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest it's the biggest leftist newspaper that the

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Speaker 1: US has ever seen.

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Speaker 2: Actually is her name and face on it? Are her

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Speaker 2: name and her face on this paper.

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Speaker 1: Well, they cover her a lot, and this is actually

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Speaker 1: how she gets famous.

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Speaker 3: Woo.

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Speaker 1: But about this like particular radicalism. The biographer Elliot J.

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Speaker 1: Gorn puts it like this, homegrown American radicals were not

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Speaker 1: steeped in the writings of Marx and his commentators. Their

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Speaker 1: ideas were shaped by popular authors with a socialist or

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Speaker 1: unionist bent, writers who sought economic transformation while preserving paradoxically

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Speaker 1: American freedom, democracy, and individualism. Mary Jones felt right at

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Speaker 1: home in the heartland radicalism. And yeah, this paper it

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Speaker 1: has three quarters of a million subscribers by nineteen thirteen,

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Speaker 1: which probably puts it as the whitest red leftist American

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Speaker 1: newspaper in history. And I think now you start getting

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Speaker 1: into where she centers herself but is telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: She probably kind of helped make this happens, very good

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Speaker 1: at what she does, and she certainly says this, she's

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Speaker 1: the one who made it happen. She says she started everything,

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Speaker 1: but the newspaper covered her widely and seems to be

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Speaker 1: how she got famous. And do you know what that

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Speaker 1: newspaper probably had in it?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Is it adverts for goods, services or items.

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Speaker 1: It probably had that because most radical newspapers did. Because

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Speaker 1: it turns out, trying to create anti capitalist media in

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Speaker 1: a capitalist society has certain complications, like the ones that

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Speaker 1: you're about to hear, which are all in Latin and Rebeck.

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed when the grick a gric ali in Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the one totally. All I remember is the word

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Speaker 1: for farm. But I don't remember the word for farm.

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Speaker 2: I think it is a gricula.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you see, I'm worldly.

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Speaker 2: And if it isn't, that will be even worse because yeah,

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Speaker 2: like what was that for. I could have learnt you know, Spanish,

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Speaker 2: which I don't know anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I genuinely think that instead of giving ninth

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Speaker 1: graders the choice of languages if they're not already fluent

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Speaker 1: in Spanish, I think that American teenager in.

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Speaker 2: The United States absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's more practical. Let's be honest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do know French, but I could also have had,

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Speaker 2: you know, German.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, in the UK, those are both languages that

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Speaker 1: make sense to learn. Who's not a lot of need

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Speaker 1: for German in the United States because we won that war.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, did you know? It's definitely you guys by yourselves.

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Speaker 1: No, totally, Okay. The other time that the UK like

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Speaker 1: kind of comes up looking good in history is like

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Speaker 1: every now and then, every now and then it like

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Speaker 1: hits me that the UK, including all of its major

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Speaker 1: empire that spanned the world, but there was a period

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Speaker 1: where it was the only political entity. Stuff like fighting

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Speaker 1: the Nazis. Yeah, that's like I gotta hear that one

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Speaker 1: to them, the points for that, Yeah, And there was like.

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Speaker 2: Look, there were lots of it really wasn't inevitable. For

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Speaker 2: all the dreams and reams of movies and podcasts and

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Speaker 2: books that come out about World War II history, particularly

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Speaker 2: in the UK, there's still so much that is under report.

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Speaker 2: Oh here's something that's relevant in terms of how things

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Speaker 2: are stories that we tell polddictionally. So I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you heard about this, but there's a big thing

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Speaker 2: about the blitz in London, about how everybody went down

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Speaker 2: to the underground to shelter or the.

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Speaker 1: Working carg Yeah, socialists who came up. Sorry, please tell

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Speaker 1: the story.

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Speaker 2: I told you this before.

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Speaker 1: Don't tell me the story. Tell me the story.

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Speaker 2: I tend to not know. I'm going to go back

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Speaker 2: a second, Okay, So I don't know if you know, Margaret,

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Speaker 2: I don't. In the Second World War, there's this whole

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Speaker 2: thing about how people sheltered in the Blitz in the

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Speaker 2: London underground and how all the different communities of London

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Speaker 2: came together to shelter from the bombs. But did you

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Speaker 2: know that this was actually not the plan originally. It

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Speaker 2: was the British Communist Party, the London Communist Party. They're

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Speaker 2: ripped down the exactly, they ripped down the barriers and

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Speaker 2: so working for the lass people of the East End

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Speaker 2: who didn't have their own shelters flooded into the underground

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Speaker 2: at Oldgate I believe it was in the Blitz of

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Speaker 2: September forty one, and after that it was just open season.

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Speaker 2: The gates had been blocked off because the government at

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Speaker 2: the time said we can't let the British working class

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Speaker 2: go underground because they'll never come out again. But then

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Speaker 2: people did go underground, and it was this big solidarity

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Speaker 2: thing and they just sort of what they ran with it.

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Speaker 2: This became the more politically useful story, so there we go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I mean, that is the kind of stuff

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Speaker 1: that gets written out of history all the time, and

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Speaker 1: then like people try and recoup it. All that kind

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Speaker 1: of history all the time. So Mother Jones running this

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Speaker 1: newspaper that's not in Latin. And coal was king in

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Speaker 1: America at the time, and it was fairly decentralized, non

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Speaker 1: monopoly industry at the time, partly because it's like in

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Speaker 1: the middle of fucking it's like hard to get to

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Speaker 1: the places that people are mining coal. Right. The oil

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Speaker 1: industry is like way more monopolized. The workforce was diverse,

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Speaker 1: and they worked for diverse owners. When I say the

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Speaker 1: workforce was diverse, I mean it was multiracial. The owners

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Speaker 1: were not diverse racially. They were pretty much universally wasps.

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Speaker 1: There might have been a couple Irish people in there,

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Speaker 1: but whatever. Anyway, whereas the actual workforce was racially diverse,

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Speaker 1: people died all the fucking time in these minds by

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Speaker 1: the tens of thousands. Cavens and methane pocket explosions or

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Speaker 1: just black lung boys as young as ten worked in

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Speaker 1: the mines regularly. Sometimes people younger than that, but like

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Speaker 1: you know, you got wait till you're double digits before

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Speaker 1: you go into that mine. Son and mining towns were

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Speaker 1: super isolated and people had to shop at the company store,

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Speaker 1: and it was just bad. We've covered a fuck ton

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Speaker 1: of times on this show. Mother Jones showed up with

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Speaker 1: the United Mine Workers, an industrial union that was willing

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Speaker 1: to affiliate with either of the two larger federations, both

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Speaker 1: the Knights of Labor and the AFL. But the United

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Speaker 1: Mine Workers was mostly more radical than either of those groups.

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Speaker 1: It had radicals and moderates within it, but it was

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Speaker 1: like skewed, a little bit more lefty, a little more socialist,

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Speaker 1: and it came out fighting and it was nearly destroyed

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Speaker 1: in several nationwide strikes, only to emerge as the largest

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Speaker 1: union in the country for decades. Mother Jones says it

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Speaker 1: that happened because of her, and again she's not not

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Speaker 1: part of that. She is perfect for this job. She

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Speaker 1: can get along with workers. One miner set about her.

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Speaker 1: Now we're gonna get into the like Mother Jones being

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Speaker 1: kind of cool section. She came into the mine one

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Speaker 1: day and talked to us in our workplace in the

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Speaker 1: vernacular of the mines. How she got in, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: probably just walked in and defied anyone to stop her.

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Speaker 1: When I first knew her, she was in her late

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Speaker 1: middle age, a woman of medium height, very sturdily built,

435
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: but not fat. She dressed Yeah, I love that people

436
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 1: have to include. Anyway, she dressed conventionally and was not

437
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: at all unusual in appearance. I think this is before

438
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 1: she gets into the black dresses thing. She would take

439
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 1: a drink with the boys and spoke their idiom, including

440
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: some pretty rough language when she was talking about the bosses.

441
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 3: Oh there's that cousin.

442
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: Okay, absolutely, it was like why I like her?

443
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: I mean, like whatever, she's nanniog basically, I don't know

444
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 2: who that is. By the stage Terry Pratchett reference.

445
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: Oh shit, oh fuck yeah is that one of the witches?

446
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the jolly one.

447
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: Okay. I have read more of the Terry Pratchett cop

448
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: books than the Witch books. I'm embarrassed about this.

449
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense.

450
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were more available. People handed them to me. Anyway,

451
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: back to the quote, this might have been considered a

452
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: little fast in ordinary women, but the miners knew and

453
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: respected her. They might think her a little queer, perhaps

454
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: it was an odd kind of work for a woman

455
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: in those days, but they knew she was a good

456
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 1: soul and a friend of those who most lacked friends.

457
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: When she started to speak, she could carry an audience

458
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: of miners with her. Every time her voice was low

459
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: and pleasant, with great carrying power. She didn't become shrill

460
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: when she got excited. Instead, her voice dropped in pitch

461
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: and the intensity of it became something you could almost

462
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: feel physically, which is like a good like how to

463
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: be a public speaker, thing that I'd never considered before.

464
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of lessons in there.

465
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. She had a complete disregard for danger or hardship

466
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: and would go in wherever she thought she was needed.

467
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: And she cared no more about approval from union leaders

468
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: than operators. Wherever people were in trouble, she showed up

469
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: to lead the fight with tireless devotion. With all this,

470
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: she was no fanatic. She had a lively sense of humor.

471
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: She could tell wonderful stories, usually at the expense of

472
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: some boss, and she couldn't resist the temptation to agitate,

473
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: even in a joke. And she exuded a warm friendliness

474
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 1: and human sympathy. So this is the thing that she

475
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 1: does very good at and changes the face of labor

476
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: in the United States. She becomes what's known as a

477
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 1: walking delegate. I think she made up this term, but

478
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: it is what she did. She wandered full time. She

479
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: would radicalize people and recruit people, and like it's fucking impressive.

480
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: She's like in her like seventies and eighties while she's

481
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: doing this shit, and like some of these places she

482
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: has to walk across creeks and shit, you know.

483
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

484
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: In eighteen ninety seven, the union went on strike and

485
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: twenty thousand workers near Pittsburgh walked off the job. Mother

486
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: Jones kept them fed, convincing farmers to donate food directly

487
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: to the workers. She put on pageants and would like

488
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: do things like crown a child the queen of the strikers.

489
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 2: That's really good. Yeah, that's a good one.

490
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

491
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: And she also brought women to the strikes, and this

492
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: has talked up a lot in history about how she

493
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: brought women out to the strikes. But one of the

494
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: things that I've run across by reading about strikes in

495
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: America for living for the past three years, is that

496
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: I've never read about women not coming to the strikes.

497
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: Women always coming to the strikes, even if the women

498
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: themselves aren't on strike, which they often are. Women show

499
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: up to strikes to support their husbands and show up

500
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: fighting violently in a good way and dying not in

501
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: a good way. For workers' rights since always, I have

502
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: not run across a counter example to this. It's still

503
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: a good thing that Mother Jones did. She didn't invent it,

504
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: and she absolutely, to the end of her days, was

505
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: opposed to women's liberation from the home. The women's place

506
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: isn't supporting her husband. I think she kind of like

507
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: is like, look, you're an equal, but this is your job,

508
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: you know.

509
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, So do you think this was strategic in any way?

510
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: Like could is this her real opinion or is this

511
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: part of the general thing she was doing to keep

512
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: as many people on board as possible because you know,

513
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: feminism's not historically popular.

514
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is her real opinion. And as

515
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: much as she has, I think she lives as Mother

516
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: Jones to the degree where she doesn't really exist as

517
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: much Mary Jones anymore. She's no longer no one's calling

518
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: her Mary Jones. She's signing everything mother. She is this

519
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: persona full time, but it is absolutely part of this persona,

520
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: and I think she means it. She even sees her

521
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: own work as being mother to the working class. Right,

522
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 1: She's like taking care of her boys, even at times

523
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: when it wouldn't be politically advantageous for her to fight

524
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: against women's suffrage. She does, like even like in the

525
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: like nineteen tens and twenties, when like women's suffrage is

526
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: like happening, she's like not fuck all that. So I like,

527
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: I think she means it. I think she's like, this

528
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: is the role that like we are supposed to have.

529
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 2: I mean, it make emotional sense if this is a

530
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,239
Speaker 2: person who had a husband who she maybe loved, who

531
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: had four kids, and she didn't choose to walk away

532
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: from that that was taken from her.

533
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like her mother to the movement thing is

534
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: really interesting, you know, and also like a lot of

535
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: it is she's like women suffrage like a middle class movement.

536
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: Fuck all those like rich bitches or whatever. But like

537
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 1: she seems to mean it. But I also think that

538
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: you're probably right that like coming in and being like

539
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: but she'll talk about socialism, you know, she'll talk about

540
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: being like like later she's just an organizer for the

541
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: Socialist Party, which is like not a popular thing to

542
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: go around telling people to do, you know.

543
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 2: So I don't know, generally speaking, it's I don't know.

544
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: In terms of political strategy, is often much easier to

545
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 2: pick one unpopular thing.

546
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: Just one, yeah, that makes sense, two or three, you know, yeah,

547
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: but anyway, no, no, that makes sense. And so this

548
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: strike wins, the Pittsburgh strike, it wins in January eighteen

549
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: ninety eight, and instead of a twenty percent pay cut,

550
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: the miner's got a small raise and they won the

551
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: right to organize, and within five years they literally doubled

552
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: their wages and won the eight hour workday, because fucking

553
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: unionizing works amazing. This unionized soft coal country, while eastern

554
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and I think West Virginia are anthracite primarily, which

555
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: is hard coal, and it's like way less unionized, and

556
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: I don't think there's something specific, and though coal is

557
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: just a very different culture of these two ways of mining.

558
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: So when the anthracite miner struck in eighteen ninety nine,

559
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: mother Jones showed up and organized, and the boarding house

560
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: kicked her out when they figured out who she was.

561
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 1: So she went to stay with some miners and then

562
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: they were evicted the next day out of their company home.

563
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: People seeing what happened stiffened their resolve. They're like, oh,

564
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: these motherfuckers are throwing people out just for letting this

565
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: old lady crash like fuck that. You know, women formed

566
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: mop and broom brigades. This one's clever. I like this one.

567
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: What so to shame scabs from working. There was a

568
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven guard outside the mines. That would

569
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: be a woman holding either a mop or a broom

570
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: in one hand and a baby in the other.

571
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: Wow, fantastic.

572
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: And it was like, this baby is starving because of you,

573
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: you motherfucker and mother Jones went around and sourced donations

574
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: to feed everyone, and people were hungry and cold, but

575
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: they won soon. She was a pay organizers. She made

576
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: about five hundred dollars a year, which is about eighteen

577
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: thousand dollars now, which is like, you know about what

578
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: a low paid organizer makes. Now. I'm going to say

579
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: the Union was her religion. She called priests and Minister

580
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: sky Pilots and talked about how you should get Yeah,

581
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: you got a little piece of heaven before you die.

582
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: But she still couched everything in super religious terms. It's honestly,

583
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of cool. It's very interesting.

584
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: It's also Terry Pratchett who says, well, he's talking about

585
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings. He says, if you're writing a

586
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: fantasy novel, and Lord of the Rings is like Mount

587
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: Fuji and Japanese painting. It's like, oh, if you're not

588
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: talking about it, you're standing on it. And I think

589
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: for former Catholics it's the same, like you might not

590
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: be talking about Catholicism, but you're standing on it.

591
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally if it's not in the frame, yeah, or

592
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: that its absence is a specific choice.

593
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 2: Yes.

594
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: So she goes around. She tells stories, and she tells

595
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: how everyone's joining in the union, whether or not this

596
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: is true, and how all Irish mothers love their union

597
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: sons but not no scabs, and she is soon a celebrity.

598
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: The United mind Workers' president said, I don't believe there

599
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: is a mine worker from one end of the country

600
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: to the other who does not know her name. She

601
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: also derided men as not really men if they weren't

602
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: union like the essence of masculinity, that she would deride

603
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: people with solidarity, and she would like regularly use a

604
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: like you're gonna make me a like old lady, do

605
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: this instead of you, you fucking coward, piece of shit.

606
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: You're not a real man, which is like, I think.

607
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: That's funny, genderous part of the story.

608
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, West Virginia was the impossible state to organize. It's

609
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: like one of the most isolated places in the country.

610
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: There's like still like not a lot of highways that

611
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: go through most of West Virginia and has like the

612
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: worst conditions. Actually still there's a ton of people. Like literally,

613
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: when you leave my house and you drive past a

614
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: spring by the side of the road, there's always trucks

615
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: lined up filling up water drugs because a ton of

616
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: people who live in West Virginia all over the state

617
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: don't have access to running water at home and rely

618
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: on public springs.

619
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: Wow, I didn't know that, do you.

620
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, I'd read about it before I moved here,

621
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: and then I'm just like, oh, yeah, no, there's one

622
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: of those, like you know, and the mine owners were

623
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: like the most brutal in West Virginia. It was just

624
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: like the hardest fucking state, right. Other organizers would go

625
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: around quietly to talk to families in secret. Mother Jones

626
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: held huge rallies. Like she's kind of cool at this point, right,

627
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: she holds huge rallies. She travels with the Mother Jones.

628
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: Band, and I don't know even a music band.

629
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, I assume it's like you know, it's fucking

630
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: eighteen nineties, early nineteen hundred, so it's probably a fucking

631
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: marching band.

632
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: It would be a marching band now that we both

633
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: met activists, you know, it would be a samba band.

634
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: But it's the same.

635
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: You see, I would rather as the marching band. But yeah, no,

636
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: not like because samba's worst music. But just when I imagine

637
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: the white people traveling around us the band, we're not talking.

638
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: About samba music here, We're not talking about sumber music.

639
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: We're talking about the specific samba band that comes on

640
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: every left wing march. It's the same people, I'm convinced,

641
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: and like it's always just a bit too loud, and

642
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: you have to be like yay, yeah them, it would

643
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: be them.

644
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. At one point, she was arrested for speaking

645
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: in West Virginia and they offered to put her up

646
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: in a hotel waiting trial, but she insisted that she

647
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: go to jail with her boys, and in court, the

648
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: judge called her the most dangerous woman in America. She

649
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: loved that, I know, I know, and then she called

650
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: the judge scab. But then she later was like, we're

651
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: about the same age. We'll be hanging out in heaven

652
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: when we're both dead soon.

653
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: Was she flirting with this judge?

654
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 3: Maybe?

655
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, because like I heard one way that

656
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: people talked about being like, oh, she was like basically

657
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: saying I'll see you in hell. But then I like

658
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: read the actual quote and I was like, no, I'll

659
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: see you in heaven, you know, And I'm like, yeah,

660
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: all right. I think it was like kind of a

661
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: like like right now, and then Wobblei's who call everyone

662
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: fellow worker, like still to this day because I guess

663
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm one now, but like, you know, because we're kind

664
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: of cringey, they'll like call everyone fellow worker. So at

665
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: one point a bunch of Wobblis are on trial and

666
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: so they're just like calling the prosecutor fellow worker the

667
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: whole time.

668
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: I loved that. Yeah, that's great.

669
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: Anyway, the judge gave everyone in sixty days in jail,

670
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: but suspended her sentence because she was a like old woman.

671
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: She leaves West Virginia. She goes to Colorado, where the

672
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: Western Federation of Miners were slightly more radical and fighting

673
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: are organizing, and soon she's working to recruit people to

674
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: the Socialist Party of America much like I'm trying to

675
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: recruit you into buying stuff, especially medieval weapons, potatoes. What

676
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: have we been sponsored by recently on this show? Really

677
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: into the medieval weapons, saying Latin classes.

678
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: And actual medieval weapons.

679
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, why not? Like, let's just be sponsored ones, rubber ones.

680
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: Both are fine, they both have their purposes.

681
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: Flails are a lot of fun.

682
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I've been asking guests recently, like which medieval

683
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: weapon would you like us to get a spot answorship from?

684
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 3: Like?

685
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: What what medieval weapon you here for?

686
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: Catholicism?

687
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: Now, come on a like violent instrum. I see what

688
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: you did there? Uh huh uh, all right, I don't

689
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: want to be sponsored by Catholicism, but I guess we are.

690
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's have a Morning Star.

691
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: Okay, that's what everyone picks. They all call it a

692
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: flail because it called the coolest name.

693
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, because I used to my story with radical

694
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: newspaper starts working for the Morning Stuff. Still the world's

695
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: only daily English language communist newspaper. Wow, Or it wasn't

696
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 2: twenty ten.

697
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: It's intentionally named after like this is what Satan's name is? Yes, yeah,

698
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: I thought so. That's how you know it's been around

699
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: since is what nineteenth century or something.

700
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: I think it's at least one hundred years old.

701
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: That's cool. Well, that's who were sponsored by the Satanic Church.

702
00:34:50,840 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: Here you go, We're back. And now I'm feeling bad

703
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: about how I did the ad transition because the State

704
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 1: Tang Church is an actual thing. I just mean, like

705
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: both Satan and the Catholic Church. That's who were sponsored by.

706
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: We just wanted to cover all our bases.

707
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we love them.

708
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: So besides coal miners, the main other group that she

709
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: wants to organize is well, she wants to organize adults

710
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: so that children don't have to work, which is a

711
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: good thing to do. She does it in ways that

712
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: I'm not convinced are good. In nineteen oh three, she

713
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: led the March of the Mill Children from Philly to

714
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: the summer home of Roosevelt, the President, and they went

715
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: on this like long march where they would stop everywhere

716
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: and have these huge shows where the kids were kind

717
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: of the entertainment and it was like kids who were

718
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: like missing limbs and shit from mine work. At one

719
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: point they teamed up with an exotic animal guy to

720
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: basically add the kids to his evening circuses like the

721
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: kids were then locked in cages during the like circus

722
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: while like lions are roaring and shit. And then at

723
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: the end she came out and gave it talk about

724
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: the evils of child labor. But it was like it

725
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: wasn't free. It was people going to the circus and

726
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: paying the lion guy.

727
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: Hmm.

728
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: This is basically a benefit.

729
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: It's a benefit for the circus.

730
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 2: Americans do this now. It's I don't know. I went

731
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: as somebody's date to a like a charity jalla benefit thing,

732
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 2: which we don't have. I think the same in the

733
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: funding of like public good works is different. But like

734
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: there were a lot of local kids from like a

735
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 2: local theater, which was the thing. That benefit was full.

736
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: They just made these little kids get up on stage

737
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: and sing little songs about how grateful they were, and

738
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 2: it was I didn't know what to do. It was horrible.

739
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: It was really horrible. I just I wasn't a good

740
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 2: date at that thing. I was. It's not the place

741
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: where you take someone like me as your date expecting

742
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: that I'll behave.

743
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what was happening here. It seems like this

744
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: is usually just presented in the like long list of

745
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: amazing things Mother Jones did, and I'm like, okay, there's

746
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: some theatrics, you know, she does like the theatrical stuff.

747
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: Her march started out with like two hundred people. It's

748
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: mostly adult too, a long for support and like helping

749
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: run it. One by one they dropped out and they

750
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: would say shit like I liked working sixty hour shifts

751
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: in the mines better than this. I'm being treated horribly.

752
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: I'm not putting up with this shit anymore. I sleep outside.

753
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: She sleeps in a hotel.

754
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: Like, fuck this, She's in her seventies.

755
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: It's true, But here's where you start seeing more of this,

756
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: like she's a celebrity and she is like there's two

757
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: ways to tell this story and neither one is like

758
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: right or wrong. But like, h yeah, no, I get yeah.

759
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, look, a random thirty year old can sleep outside,

760
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: will seven year old sleeps in a hotel. That's fine

761
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: by me. But like, if the labor conditions at your

762
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: labor march are so bad that everyone's leaving to go

763
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: back to work for the minds, you know it's pretty bad, right, yeah, yeah,

764
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: not a good sign. Yeah, And I was thinking about

765
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: as I was writing this, I was thinking about how

766
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: much her lying bothered me, and I was thinking, like,

767
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: I'm being too hard on her, you know, because I

768
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: was reading how she would write descriptions. She wrote all

769
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: these articles. Her first article she ever published actually was

770
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: about the horrors of child labor, And I was like,

771
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: why has it bothered me so much that she's lying

772
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: about this? And then I'm like, well, because she's first

773
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, she's wolf crying, right. If she

774
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: lies about everything, then there's no reason to believe her

775
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: political journalism because she will say whatever is politically useful

776
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: to her. And so I'm thinking that right as I'm

777
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: reading this, and I'm like, yeah, but obviously she's still

778
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: not lying about child Let know she was lying about

779
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: child labor. In her articles about child labor, she would

780
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: just exaggerate how bad it was. Constantly she would exaggerate.

781
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: You don't have to lie about child labor to present

782
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: it as bad, And you don't have to lie about

783
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: Iceland to make it cool. Iceland is cool and child

784
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: labor is bad, and the oppression of the Irish people

785
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: is real. You don't need to pretend like people were

786
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: marching around with heads on spikes of bayonets.

787
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 2: Before fact checking. There is a like the line between

788
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 2: rhetoric and polemic that is entirely unmoored from the reality

789
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: based community, and real journalism is fuzzier. Yeah, it takes

790
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: a lot to There may not have been the same

791
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: assumption as I think we have now, which is good

792
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: that anything appearing in a newspaper presenting itself as journalism

793
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: will have been checked out.

794
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 1: I see that. So you're saying that, like the reader

795
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: might not have the same expectation of truth.

796
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm hmm. I'm actually I'm truly not sure, but

797
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: there's at least not the same expectation that somebody will

798
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 2: have double checked this. You just have to believe mother Jones,

799
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: which I guess is the is the issue.

800
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: Right, and historians have checked her and she was lying, right.

801
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess she's writing in an age where it

802
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 2: didn't matter in the same way for the polemic to

803
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: be effective if this was true or not.

804
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: But see, that's like the thing that I don't like truthiness.

805
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: I don't like the idea of telling people in a

806
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: exaggerated evil. I don't think that that's how you build

807
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: free thinking people. Agreed, And so I dislike that she

808
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: lies about child labor when you can tell the truth

809
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 1: about child labor, because child labor is really bad and

810
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: really easy to explain as bad.

811
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: And although I'm just Devil's advocating here, no devil has

812
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 2: more than enough that because as we know, but at

813
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: this time, we all know that child labor is very,

814
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: very bad. But people one hundred and some years ago

815
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: didn't necessarily all operate on that assumption.

816
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: So it's true. Although one of the things that she

817
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: would lie about, she would lie and say that labor

818
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: was the only people fighting for child labor laws and

819
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: stuff like that, right, whereas by and large it was

820
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: religious groups and like more like reformers who were doing that.

821
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: So she's lying about like other stuff as well. But

822
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: that's like kind of a like that's the sort of

823
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: lie that it's really easy to fall into. I worry

824
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: all the time about what I'm like, and then the

825
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: anarchist did everything right, you know, and it's like, well, no,

826
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: we didn't.

827
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 2: The Catholic Church has never done anything good. In Mother

828
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 2: Jones reading, she's not going to let the church.

829
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: Have that, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, what's interesting is that

830
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: her problem, the problem she presented with child labor is

831
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: actually different because the church and reformers were presenting a

832
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: moral issue where children should get to be children. For

833
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: this reason, her argument is more economic. Oh, of course,

834
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: her argument is a little bit like it's a little

835
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: bit like kids are stealing the jobs.

836
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: Oh man, kids go home.

837
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's it's only a little bit like that.

838
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: But she specifically ties it into an economic argument instead

839
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: of a moral argument. But I mean it's not wrong, no, yeah, no,

840
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: I mean, like whatever, it's the same as like, it's

841
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: not the same as but it's comparable to the abolition

842
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: of slavery, where it's like, you know, a lot of

843
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: people are making economic arguments because they actually cared about

844
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: moral arguments, but we're trying to use any argument that

845
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: they could make. But to continue onward with our journey

846
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: through Mother Jones's time, she tries to go with this

847
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: march of children to go see Roosevelt. She's like kind

848
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: of like all the time, she's always like, oh, this

849
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: President's going to like me, Like this governor is going

850
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: to like me, like this may like she just kind

851
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: of has this thing where she's always sort of appealing

852
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: to authority or I'm looking for that because I dislike

853
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: her at this point, right, whatever.

854
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: And you do not like people who want to appeal

855
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: to authority. That's very much not your favorite thing at all. Right,

856
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: I've met you too.

857
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a bias that I have. Yeah. So

858
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: then one of the other coolest things that she's credited

859
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: has having done is that she was one of the

860
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: founders of the Industrial Workers of the World, who have

861
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: been on this podcast by accident like dozens of times

862
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: and on purpose several times because they keep doing cool shit.

863
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: They were formed in nineteen oh five and they're like

864
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: the most explicitly anti racist union in American history, and

865
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: mother Jones's credit is one of the founders. Yeah, so

866
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: what happened was, oh no, she showed up to the

867
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: first two meetings, was kind of quiet, signed her name

868
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: on the thing, and then never went to another meeting again,

869
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: and then spent the rest of her time like talking

870
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: shit on the IWW never a wobbly She was technically

871
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: there at the beginning. Her ideology does not line up

872
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: with industrial unionism by and large. Well, she's not anti

873
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: industrian unionism, but like it's not her thing. They're too violent,

874
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: they're too radical. She doesn't like them, So one of

875
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: the things that was in the back of my mind

876
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: will like, at least she did the thing, you know,

877
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: no now. Instead, in nineteen oh five, she joins the

878
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: Socialist Party of America and she spent seven years advocating

879
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: for people to join the Socialist Party, which largely split

880
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: from the IWW because they were the Socialist Party was

881
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: like less revolutionary. They were more interists in politics and

882
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: lessened to syndicalism as a means of social change. But

883
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: she stayed on the outs of the Socialist Party, which

884
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: makes me like her a little bit because she honestly

885
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: hated how middle class they were, and she did not

886
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: hide her contempt for anyone who was not working class. Right,

887
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: She's like, fuck these motherfuckers. She also got in a

888
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: fight with a Socialists because she was loaning hundreds of

889
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 1: dollars out to people all the time. Where'd she get

890
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: that money? I don't know. I do know where she

891
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: got the money. She fund raised it, and then is

892
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: like fucking loan sharking it. She's fucking loan sharking the

893
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: Socialist Party. So she gets mad because she didn't get

894
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: paid back at a timely fashion, and then she's also

895
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: mad because the Socialist Party cares about things that she

896
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: does not, like open borders, birth control, free love, women's suffrage,

897
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: and temperance to be fair fuck temperance, fuck yeah, advocating

898
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: that people weren't allowed to drink. She would also try

899
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: and bribe Socialist Party officials, and they accused her of

900
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: making her fortune as a lecturer. And this is where

901
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: I had gotten two hundred pages in the book before

902
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: I realized she was a fucking grifter. Yeah. So she's

903
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: just going around fundraising and put that shit in her

904
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: pocket and occasionally feeding people. And then she looks like

905
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: a fucking hero all the time. And she is a

906
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: fucking fraud. But she's also a good organizer. But god,

907
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: and she expressed most of her anger at other women

908
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: in the socialist movement. She didn't come for the middle

909
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: class men. Nope, yep.

910
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: I mean, look, that's that's the same as right now.

911
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: I know, that's a story older than time.

912
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: Everything everybody hates about the middle class is wrapped up

913
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: in themophobia.

914
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's fair.

915
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: Look, nobody is hating on all the upper class white

916
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: boys I know with their martial arts classes, But we

917
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: hate yoga moms for some reason.

918
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good point, yeah right, Yeah.

919
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: Like it's all gendered because women of upper class women

920
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 2: do not have cultural power in quite the same way,

921
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: and it's safe to go for them.

922
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also just like I think she's I think

923
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 1: she's kind of a pick me about being a woman,

924
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, m So she quits the Socialist Party and

925
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: or she's run out of the Socialist Party. Oh and

926
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 1: by the way, in nineteen oh five, she was run

927
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: out of the United mind Workers. I forgot about that, God,

928
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: And it was over like arguments that she later represented

929
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: as being like I didn't like how not radical they were.

930
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: But then if you look back at her own statements

931
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: at the time, she's like totally kissing ass of the

932
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: moderates and like, to.

933
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 2: Be clear, like, I don't know how culturally different America

934
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: was one hundred and some years ago, but it would

935
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: take a look for me to be involved in running

936
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: someone out who was a old lady. Yeah, totally, Like

937
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: it runs an old lady out of their movement, the

938
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 2: lady must have done.

939
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 1: Something quite I know, especially as someone whose whole thing

940
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: is being.

941
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: Like I'm just the old lady.

942
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, old lady I'm from Ireland, where they put their

943
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: heads on spikes. And so she quits and goes back

944
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: to union work. She actually rejoins the mine workers, and

945
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: she does her thing. She does her unique thing. She

946
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: uses fiery rhetoric to sign up workers to strike, while

947
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: also lying and turning her back on any actual violence

948
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: if it comes to that. In West Virginia, she gave

949
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: a speech that goes really hard. They wouldn't keep their

950
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: dog where they keep you, fellows. You know that you,

951
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: fellows have stood it entirely too long. It is time

952
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: now to put a stop to it. We will give

953
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: the governor until tomorrow night to take them guards out

954
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 1: of cabin Creek. Here on the steps of the capitol

955
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: of West Virginia. I say that if the governor won't

956
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: make them go, then we shall make them go. She said,

957
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: will not shell.

958
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: I don't know.

959
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: If you are too cowardly to fight, I will fight.

960
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Actually to the Lord.

961
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: You ought just to see one old woman who is

962
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: not afraid of all the bloodhounds, which is word for cops.

963
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 1: It is freedom or death, and your children will be free.

964
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: We are not going to leave a slave class to

965
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: the coming generation. And I want to say to you

966
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: that the next generation will not charge us for what

967
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: we have done. They will charge and condemn us for

968
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: what we have left. Undone just a good fucking speaker, YEP.

969
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 1: At the peak of her fame, when all the media

970
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: was paying attention to her, after several months dint in jail,

971
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: she told the press this is my fuck her quote.

972
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: She told the press, one of the most striking things

973
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: to me is that gradual dying out of the American type.

974
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: In fifty years, the changes in type have been almost

975
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: beyond belief. The Japs are not the only Orientals to

976
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: be feared. The Hindus will someday make a be a

977
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 1: serious menace. They are coming in large numbers now, although

978
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: little has been said about them. And while she organized

979
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: with Jews, she referred to them in her autobiography as

980
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: lickspittle Jews who had sold out Christ Jesus.

981
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 2: So okay Jesus, as my family who has symothy. There's

982
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: a small community of Northern Irish Jews, and I'm related

983
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: to them, and it's a very strange cultural position to occupy.

984
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. And then shortly before the Battle of

985
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: Blair Mountain, the biggest labor uprising in the US since

986
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: again since the Civil War. In nineteen twenty one, she

987
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: was afraid that things were going too far, so she

988
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 1: did what she always did. She lied to the workers.

989
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 1: She went to the governor and told them she would

990
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: get the workers to go home. She went and told

991
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: the workers to disband, said she had a telegram from

992
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: the president that if they went home, he'd address their grievances.

993
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 1: The crowd wanted to see the telegram. She wouldn't let them.

994
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: They found out she was lying to them and stopped

995
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: listening to her. And I'm not totally sure. I think

996
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 1: that's the end of her career, kind of whoa. After

997
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: she's called out as a fraud at long last, she

998
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: has a nervous breakdown and leaves the coal fields. Then

999
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: she writes an autobiography that's entirely fiction in nineteen twenty five,

1000
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: and in it she praises the West Virginia governor extensively

1001
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,479
Speaker 1: for like preserving free speech and like because she sucks

1002
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: up to authority. She moved in with some friends in Maryland,

1003
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: and she celebrated her fake hundredth birthday on May first,

1004
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty and then died at the age of ninety three.

1005
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: And it's impressive to die at ninety three after celebrating

1006
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: your hundredth birthday.

1007
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty good.

1008
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: And that's Mother Jones.

1009
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: Ninety three is a long, exciting life to live anyway. Again,

1010
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 2: don't have to say you're one hundred, I know.

1011
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, ninety three is still pretty good. Yeah, just tell

1012
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 3: the truth.

1013
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, And if it was all she

1014
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: lied about, if she had lied about her past, yes,

1015
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: and that was it. Yep, fine, I don't care.

1016
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: Same same I think you can. You are allowed to

1017
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 2: reinvent yourself in ways that do not harm others. I'm very,

1018
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: very prone that.

1019
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but as soon as you're fucking with the

1020
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: money and as soon as you're lying to the people

1021
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to be organizing and anyway, I just

1022
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: like this whole time. It started off being like my

1023
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: working title for a while was like Mother Jones, the

1024
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: goth hell raiser, who I don't like as much as

1025
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 1: I thought I would, And like now it's probably mother

1026
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: Jones kind of a fraud, to be.

1027
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 2: Honest, this has really got to you, It really got

1028
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 2: to me. This has really got to you. It's like,

1029
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 2: I don't know. I've been thinking as we've been talking about, like, look,

1030
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: I know we both made a joke about this earlier,

1031
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: but look, you and me, we're both writers. Neither of

1032
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 2: us has either the name or the gender that we

1033
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: were assigned at birth right, And some of the this

1034
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: is going to sound incredibly cringed, but some of the

1035
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 2: work of being an artist of any kind, a writer

1036
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 2: or political thinker in public is a kind of self

1037
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: mythologization totally.

1038
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: And creating a persona.

1039
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's creating a persona, and that can be I believe,

1040
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: I hope it can be morally neutral, but it kind

1041
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 2: of takes guts to do. And this is why I

1042
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 2: remember I did this podcast a year ago. I was

1043
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: in the middle of a huge depression and you asked me.

1044
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: When you ask me to you know, what have I

1045
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 2: got to plug? I was almost like, oh God, I

1046
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 2: don't know if I want people to even look at it.

1047
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't ready to have that be, to do that

1048
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 2: persona work anymore. That's been the hardest bit of it. Yeah,

1049
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: but when it's going well, you do, it's tender because

1050
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: you know, even if you're saying even if what you're

1051
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 2: saying is completely true and real, it's still leaving out

1052
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 2: and enough always it's always a little bit of a

1053
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: fan dance totally, And I guess, I mean, how does

1054
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 2: that make you feel about mother Jones?

1055
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: I think that's like part of why if she just

1056
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: stuck to mythologizing herself, if she was like I was

1057
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: born on May one, eighteen thirty, I'd be like, okay,

1058
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, or even oh I was involved in this

1059
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 1: or that. It gets a little sketchy. Because she's building

1060
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: clout off of that, and she's using clout for money,

1061
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: it gets a little sketchyer, but it's once she's just

1062
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: actually misleading people, you know, Like I don't know, I do.

1063
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: You think here's a question, do you think you can

1064
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 2: use clout strategically to achieve good political ends? Because that's

1065
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 2: something it's very difficult to do right now and everything

1066
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: is very viable having that persona for the greater good.

1067
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: Let's say.

1068
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting, right because it's like almost impossible

1069
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: to make your living as an artist if you don't

1070
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: have a platform, right yep. And you can't have a

1071
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: platform that is not based on a persona because you're

1072
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 1: always going to edit. Like, I don't think I lie

1073
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: about who I am, but I absolutely we don't, Like

1074
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: I have specific lines. I don't talk about my romantic

1075
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: relationships or my family to any extensive degree on this show, right,

1076
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: And I think people probably notice that, or maybe they haven't.

1077
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, but you know, it's like, no, they have.

1078
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 2: I know that because because to your point, there was

1079
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: a party at my house with some cool young leftists

1080
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 2: and cool young trans women, and they independently started talking

1081
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 2: about you, and I mentioned that I knew you, and

1082
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 2: I think it came up as like, wait, it was

1083
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: Margaret dating. Nobody can work it out. Yeah, yeah, people

1084
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: notice and like it's but that's like being a persona. Also,

1085
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 2: I'm telling you this because like I hope it will

1086
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 2: make you smile, and you will, but also because like

1087
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: that stuff has reached right.

1088
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: And I think that having a platform can be useful.

1089
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: I think that Mother Jones, even creating celebrity and going

1090
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: around and being like I'm Mother Jones, can be useful.

1091
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: I think you do have a higher uh. I think

1092
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: you have to hold yourself to a higher bar. Yes,

1093
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: when you do that, And I think that especially when

1094
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: people are falking with money, I don't trust them. I

1095
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: have no evidence that she stole money. I have lots

1096
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: of I mean, she was kind of a lone sharking

1097
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: and everyone accused her of stealing money. So I'm just

1098
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,439
Speaker 1: gonna go until she did it because she's dead.

1099
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 2: But like I think, like I think that having persona

1100
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: and using that strategically should it should make you a

1101
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 2: person of more integrity. And at least in my own work,

1102
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 2: I've found because I became moderately well known quite young,

1103
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: I like to think that I would have been that

1104
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: I would have been, I would have taken care to

1105
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: be a person of integrity without that. But I absolutely

1106
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: know that I've had to be a lot more rigorous,

1107
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 2: a lot faster than I might otherwise have done. And

1108
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 2: maybe it's not the best reason, but at least it's

1109
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: not like mother Jon's I guess.

1110
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, or she's amazing and I'm a hater. I don't know, well,

1111
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: she's a racist, but lots of people have like a

1112
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: specific thing that they're terrible about. But like, I don't know,

1113
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: that's pretty.

1114
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: I don't think there's an argument there. Yeah, there was

1115
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 2: no need for that.

1116
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: No, she really kinda left that out and been he realized. Yeah,

1117
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: but people sure don't talk about that part of what

1118
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: she has to say, yep, because her continued persona is

1119
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: whatever anyway. But here we are at the end where

1120
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: you talk about the things that you do with your

1121
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: persona platform. Lori Penny, what.

1122
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: Do I do with my persona platform? I write books

1123
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 2: which you can buy from independent bookshops online and in person,

1124
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 2: or you could go to the Rainforest site and you

1125
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 2: just google my name Laury Penny and they will be there.

1126
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 2: My latest one is called Sexual Revolution. I also have

1127
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 2: a substack which is just Lori Penny substack. And I'm

1128
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 2: also writing for various TV shows at the moment, which

1129
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 2: I'm not allowed to talk about, which makes them sound

1130
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: possibly more exciting than they are. I think they're quite exciting.

1131
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, whatever show you were, you, dear listener, are

1132
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: excited about. Laurie is writing it.

1133
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: It's not the queer historical Marx and Angels romance that

1134
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 2: we all really desperately want to see. I can tell

1135
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 2: you that because nobody will ever, ever ever let me

1136
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: make it.

1137
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: Well, that's it for the show and we will talk

1138
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: to you next week. When we talk about someone who

1139
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: will probably I'll like them more. I like the average guest,

1140
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: hope no, I like the guests quite a lot, the

1141
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: average subject quite a lot. And I'll talk to you

1142
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: all next week. Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is

1143
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media.

1144
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 2: Or more podcasts and fool Zone Media, visit our website

1145
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 2: fool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

1146
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, app A podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.