1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: It sounded more like a meeting of grammarians or English 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: teachers rather than oral arguments at the Supreme Court. Here 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: are Justice is Neil gorz Elena Kagan and Chief Justice 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: John Roberts on what basis is this sentence grammatical? I 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: think it's so awkward. I'd anticipate you'd rewrite it if 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,159 Speaker 1: it were given to you. Um and uh. When we 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 1: look at the adverbial phrase, there's nothing to indicate in 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: the statute that it that it modifies only one of 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: the verbs. The reading that you're asking us to adopt 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: is in fact ungrammatical. That you have two verbs store 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: and produce. They have a shared direct object numbers to 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: be called, and then a modifier following all of that. 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: I mean, the drafters here weren't following the rule of 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: Redondo's singular singulists or diagramming these sentences. So why why 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: should we focus on syntext to the extent that I 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: think both parties do. At issue is a lawsuit accusing 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: Facebook of repeatedly sending unwanted text messages, and the justices 19 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: struggle to make sense of the law banning robocalls and 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: robotext to cell phones Telephone Consumer Protection Act that was 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: enacted long before Facebook existed or cell phones were so 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: pervasive in our society, with some justices like Clarence Thomas 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: suggesting the law is obsolete. Don't you think it's rather 24 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: odd that we are applying a statute that's almost a macrotistic, 25 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: if not nostigial, and to a to modern technology like 26 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: Facebook and instant messaging. Joining me as litigator Paul herringa 27 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: counsel at Manette, Paul tell us about the basic issue 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: facing the justices. Well, the issue boils down to the 29 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: placement of a common to put it in the simplest term, 30 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: In the Telephone Consumer Protection Act of the c c 31 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: p A, there's a definition of an automatic telephone dialing 32 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: system and it's defined as equipment which has the capacity 33 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: to store or produce telephone numbers to be called comma 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: using a random er sequential number generator, and to dial 35 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: such numbers. And the issue is whether that comma, the 36 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: random or sequential number generator relates to the word store 37 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: or also modifies the word produce. So we have a 38 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: grammatical debate. Is it going to be purely a grammatical 39 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: question for the justices. Well, it's difficult to predict how 40 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is ever going to come out on 41 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: any particular issue. I don't know if necessarily if it's 42 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: going to come down to grammatical issue. One of the 43 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: fundamental tenets of statutory construction is to come up with 44 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: the plane meaning, you know, to look at comma placement 45 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: and things like that when things get a little bit 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: more complex, and necessarily look into the statutory history. But 47 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: when you look at the statute, because the way it's worded, 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: they may look at the plain meaning, they may look at, 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: you know, the legislative history, and there were some indications 50 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: that they're going to consider. I don't think necessarily Supreme 51 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: Court's going to do this, but you know, whether the 52 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: statutes just obsolete based on current technology. So there's a 53 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: lot of factors I think that come into and I 54 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: don't think it's really going to come down in the 55 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: end to whether that comma is in the right place. 56 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: There are a lot of textualists on the court. Will 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: that make a difference? Yes to a degree. I think 58 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: that that's what the focus has been on the circuit 59 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: courts that have dealt with it, have really focused on 60 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: the textual language and how it's constructed. So there's a 61 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: possibility that's going to play a factor. How heavy of 62 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: a factor, I'm not sure everyone seems to agree on 63 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: the court that quote unquote robocalls as they're more commonly 64 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: called are problematic, So I think that they may be 65 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: also looking at they your pictures are not just focusing 66 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: on the text. At the end of the day, was 67 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: there any consideration made to privacy concerns of people getting 68 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: these texts? Yes, there was some consideration. I mean, the 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: Chief Justice definitely brought it up. Justice Kavanaugh brought it up, um, 70 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: but they weren't really focusing on the arguments. Didn't really 71 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: focused on on the privacy aspect of the Planiffs did that, 72 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: you know, this is a huge privacy concern and things 73 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: like that, But my impression was it wasn't really the 74 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: primary focus of the argument. Let's go back for a 75 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: second and just describe what the case is about. Sure, well, 76 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: the Telephone Consumer Protection Act basically, there's a civil provision 77 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: that allows for five calls that is made without consent 78 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: using an ATDLSA more commonly an autodollar or an automatic 79 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: telesphone balance system. The plantiffs do Good is alleged to 80 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: have received text messages, not traditional phone calls. Tech messages 81 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: are within the scope of the ccp A widely considered, 82 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: although interestingly enough Justice Thomas question that issue, but really 83 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: the issue boils down to content. Did the plane ef 84 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:15,679 Speaker 1: receive these text messages from Facebook without his consent using 85 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: an automatic telephone dialing system Under the p p A. 86 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: There are det story damages that five hundred per call 87 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: or text message, and that's what's alleged here, that he 88 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: didn't consent to receiving the calls this case text messages 89 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: and their force entitled statutory damages. I've been talking to 90 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: Paul horinga counsel at Manette, about the Supreme Court arguments 91 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: in a lawsuit accusing Facebook of repeatedly sending unwanted text messages. 92 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: The justices struggle to make sense of the Telephone Consumer 93 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: Protection Act that was enacted long before Facebook existed or 94 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: cell phones were so pervasive in our society, and some 95 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: of the justices has expressed concern about whether a broad 96 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: interpretation of the law would put all cell phone users 97 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: at risk of being sued. Here are just so to 98 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: Mayor Stephen Bryer and Neil Gorsu Council. If we ruined 99 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: your away, the logical consequence is that every cell phone 100 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 1: owner would be subject to the harsh criminal and civil 101 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: penalties of the c p A. UM, could you give 102 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: me a reason other than that it hasn't happened yet? 103 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: UH for why Congress would have intended that we take 104 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: your friend your opponent definition. Then it would be unlawful 105 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,239 Speaker 1: for a person to use a cell phone. I guess 106 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: the stores number like an emergency hospital number UH to 107 00:06:54,279 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: make a call UH to the emergency line of the hospital. UM. 108 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: But even at the time of the statutes adoption, there 109 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: were phones that captured UH numbers that have been dialed 110 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: and you could press redial. UM. Why wouldn't and that 111 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: was common even even I believe UM certainly a lot 112 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: earlier than cell phones. Why wouldn't this statute make a 113 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: criminal of us all? Do you think that some of 114 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: the Justice's concerns that the plaintiff's interpretation of the statute 115 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: would put average cell phone users at risk of being sued? 116 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: Is that plausible or beyond plausibility? I don't think it's 117 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: necessarily way out there. That's something that has been a 118 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: concern since day one. Um this case stems from a 119 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: Ninth Circuit decision that basically said that it's just storing 120 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: and dialing numbers. Whether a random or sequential number generator 121 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: used is secondary. If that happened, of course, it's an 122 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: auto dialer. But the story a numbers and to dial 123 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: them automatically, well, that's what a cellphone does. I mean, 124 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: my iPhone can tack everybody in my address book automatically 125 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: in one shot, I type the text message and send 126 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: it out. It's a possibility whether that would actually be 127 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: a practical application, that's what's questionable. Yes, the way you 128 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: read the statute, I would think that a cell phone 129 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: would be if it is given the planets very broad 130 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: definition as advocated in oral argument, that a cellphone could 131 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: be within the scope. I really be skeptical whether a 132 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: jury or a judge would apply it that way because 133 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: the word automatic is not in it. But there's some 134 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: question of the amount of human intervention involved to dial 135 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: such numbers. And you know there's a fair amount of 136 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: human intervention on your cell phone. You have to you know, 137 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: type it in, you have select the address. Is it's 138 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: not doing an automatic reply. But at the same time, 139 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: just the spirit brought up the great example. I thought 140 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: of the automatic reply if I'm driving and it sends 141 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: a text message, you know, just automatic based on on 142 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: a setting on my phone that says, hey, I'm driving, 143 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: I can't really disturb right now. Is that automatic? Is 144 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: that enough to to be a TCP a violation? And 145 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: my question as well, is it marketing? Because when it 146 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: comes down to it, the type of consents that you 147 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: need varies based on the subject matter. And I'm just 148 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: not convinced that a jury necessarily would apply it that way, 149 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: but it is possible that it would fall within the scope. 150 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: It did seem like several of the justices were leaning 151 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: towards Facebook's interpretation. Justice Brier even told Facebook's lawyer that 152 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: he had a pretty strong case on the consequences and 153 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: purposes of the law. You know, again, it's it's difficult 154 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: to to I don't think there's necessarily going to be 155 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: a split um uh, you know where it's it's gonna 156 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: come down to five four. But maybe if it's uh 157 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: an opinion, it's a close call. I mean, you know, 158 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: of bar opinion, wasn't that close to the call. And 159 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: yet when I listen to that oral argument as well, 160 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: very closely, because it was big threshold issue whether the 161 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: entire auto dialer provision was also going to be declared 162 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: unconstitutional um, you know that the argument some of the 163 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: justices surprised me. And you know, they were leaving one 164 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: way in in oral arguments, and they came out a 165 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: different way in in when they actually wrote the opinion. 166 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: And sometimes I get the impression I've listened to countless 167 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: of these that you know they kind of play double's 168 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: advocate sometimes during questioning and they're going to come out 169 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: the opposite way. Sometimes they're right on where you already 170 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: know where they're going to come out. I think that 171 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: it's still jump off a close call. I think that Facebook, 172 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, has the better logical, 173 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: common sense argument. And because this is a fairly complex issue, 174 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, when it's 175 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: a close call, I think the plane reading of it, 176 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: and the way and even reads to me, is that 177 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: the Facebook version of it is the correct one. Otherwise 178 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense if you store numbers and dial 179 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: such numbers. My cell phone is an auto dollar. I 180 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: do not think that that's what the pc P is 181 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: intended for. I could be wrong. You mentioned the bar case. 182 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,599 Speaker 1: The CORD had deferred action on this case until it 183 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: heard that other robocall case. From the opinion that was 184 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: issued in the last case. Do you see any implications 185 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: for this case. Well, the one implication I think that 186 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: is clear is that the that they're not going to, uh, 187 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, strike down the entire auto dialer provision because 188 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: of it. I mean, they were very reluctant to do that, 189 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: and you know there were comments. I think Kavanaugh was 190 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: the one who made it clear. But also this time 191 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: around as the Roberts, that's Justice Roberts, that sad. Look 192 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: that you know, these calls are a problem, and you 193 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: know that's true to the extent if someone's you know, 194 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: not getting consents or you know, truly you know, violating 195 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: the law. Um, nobody's a fan of that. I think 196 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: that's the one takeaway that you can definitely have is 197 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: that I don't think the TCP is going anywhere. There 198 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: was a discussion about how well it's still gonna stand 199 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: even if we take out the auto dollar part, so 200 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: you still have prerecorded calls and artificial voice calls and 201 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: are those the true quote unquote robo calls. I think 202 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: that that is a very good argument. In a very 203 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: good point is that if they're human intervention involved, the 204 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: numbers not ran and resequential, as long as there's a 205 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: live person that's not a robocall. It's those prerecorded voice 206 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: that you get and and that you hear without you 207 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: consent are the ones that are truly the annoying and 208 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: truly the ones that the justice seeing they have problems with. 209 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: So I would think that the TCP is not going anywhere. 210 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: But whether the auto dollar provision is going to stick 211 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: that's the harder one. But at the end of the day, 212 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: what will still be prohibited are calls without consent that 213 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: are using an artificial prerecorded voice. What an auto dialer is. 214 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: It'll still be there too. But is the auto dialer 215 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: is going to be storing and dialing numbers or is 216 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: it also going to involve a random sequential number generator. 217 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: That's the question that the court has to answer. Thanks Paul. 218 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: That's Paul Harangua of Manette. There's a new consequence, perhaps 219 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: so far unconsidered, forgetting COVID nineteen. You may not be 220 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: able to get life insurance. Life insurance companies are already 221 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: rejecting people who have survived COVID, even those with mild symptoms, 222 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: and some companies are changing their forms to specifically ask 223 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: applicants if they've had COVID. Joining me is Lydia Wheeler, 224 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: a senior reporter at Bloomberg Law. When did insurance companies 225 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: first start considering whether to sell new life insurance policies 226 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: to people who survived COVID? Right, so, the pandemic was 227 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: barely underway when life insurance companies started wrestling with this 228 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: question of whether or not that they should sell new 229 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: policies to people who have survived with the virus. The 230 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: Delaware Department of Insured and told me that they actually 231 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: start seeing in June UM companies were finally request to 232 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: change their application forms to specifically ask people if they've 233 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: had the virus, if they've been treated for it, if 234 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: they've been hospitalized, those sorts of things. Is it legal 235 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: for an insurance company to refuse to give someone a 236 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: life insurance policy because they've had COVID? Right, so, there's 237 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: no state regulation that stops them from underwriting against the 238 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: disease like COVID nineteen UM that being said, though, insurers 239 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: can't you know, they're not allowed to add writers to 240 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: their policies that would deny someone to pay out of 241 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: benefits if they died, um from a specific illness. You know, 242 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: they can't offer you a policy that has you know, 243 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: a clause in it that says, if you die from COVID, 244 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: we're not going to pay you. UM. But they can 245 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: refuse you a policy, you know, at the outset, because 246 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: you already had this pre existing condition. So tell us 247 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: about this couple you spoke to who were refused life insurance. Right. 248 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: So I talked to an intellectual property attorney in Stratford, Connecticut. 249 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: Her and her wife were both denied coverage. UM. They 250 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: were seeking you know, life insurance policies because there's were 251 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: sets to expire and they were wanted to expand on 252 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: the plants that they already had. They started this process, 253 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: I think they said, in February. UM so before yes, 254 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: so before the pandemic was really underway in the United States. UM, 255 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: and they you know, started the application process. And then 256 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: they went on a trip to Aruba, which was planned 257 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: and UM on their way back through the airports, they 258 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: think that's where they both contracted the virus. UM. They 259 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: both tested positive within hours of each other. UH, and 260 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: then within a couple of weeks of getting that those 261 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: positive test results back, they were denied life insurance policies 262 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: by Symmetrical Life insurance company. What's interesting here is that 263 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: Semetra actually sent um one of them a letter, and 264 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: in the denial letter they specifically said, we're denying you 265 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: due to your medical history, which includes your recent hope 266 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: A diagnosis. So then there's no way to appeal that. Well, 267 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: they could go back to the insurance company. I mean, 268 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: they could wait a couple of months and go back 269 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: to the insurance company and try again. UM. That's what 270 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: some insurers have are saying that they're recommending their clients do. 271 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: They could also shop around and go to a different company. UM. 272 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: Some insurance experts say that just because you're denied by 273 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: one doesn't mean that you're you're going to be denied 274 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: by them all. UM, So it's important to shop around 275 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: for coverage. UM. But you know, there's no way, you know, 276 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: after Symmetric makes their decision, you know kind of their 277 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: hands are tied. You know, that's what Symmetri has decided, 278 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: and you know, insurance companies have a lot of control 279 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: in this situation in the requests that are being made, 280 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, to change the applications. Do they want to 281 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: change it to just ask questions have you had COVID 282 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: or are there more subtle questions that they're asking? Says 283 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: Some of them actually said if you've had a positive diagnosis. 284 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,239 Speaker 1: But you have to keep in mind that not everybody 285 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: who has had COVID has actually gone and gotten tested, 286 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: just because the you know, there's still an issue with 287 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: testing in the United States. Um, it's hard to go 288 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: and find a test and be able to get tested. Um. 289 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: So the application forms are asking questions like have you 290 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: been treated for symptoms of a sore throat or running nose, fatigue, um, 291 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: those things like the stuff that are the symptoms of COVID. 292 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: They actually ask if you've spent hospitalized or and if so, 293 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: for how long? And in some cases they're asking if 294 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: you've traveled and when was the last time you went 295 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: out of the country, um, you know, and they're also 296 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: asking if you've been advised by a medical professional professional 297 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: to quarantine for a certain number of days, and if 298 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: you've been exposed to the virus. Are there any metrics 299 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: that insurance companies can use to figure out who might 300 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: be affected by COVID long term or are they just 301 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: sort of in the dark, And that's why some are 302 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: doing this all or nothing, that's right. So you know, 303 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: insurance companies are really in the dark here. Um. They 304 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: rely on mortality data when deciding whether to ensure someone 305 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: or not, and there's still a lot we don't know 306 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: about COVID nineteen. Um. You know, some people, even those 307 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: who who were asymptomatic or maybe just had a mild case, 308 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: have shown that they have UM damage to their heart, 309 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: their lung, their kidneys, UM and it's not clear yet. 310 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: You know from medical professionals, it's that damage is going 311 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: to be long term. So insurance companies really don't know 312 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: if you've had COVID nineteen what your mortality risk looks like. 313 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: And that's you know, they need that data in order 314 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: to figure out whether or not that you're someone who's 315 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: worth ensuring or not UM. And so without that data, 316 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: they're kind of left gassing. And the trouble with gassing 317 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: is that they could get it wrong and they could 318 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: deny someone of policy who you know has a long 319 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: life ahead of them. Um or if they could give 320 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: someone a policy who dies relatively early in life, UM, 321 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: and then they may be forced to pay out you know, 322 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: a lot of claims twenty to thirty years down the road. 323 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: So lydia. Some people get very mild forms of COVID, 324 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: some are even asymptomatic, while others are hospitalized. Our insurance 325 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: companies basing coverage on the severity of someone's COVID symptoms, 326 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: I mean possibly you know that that's why they're asking 327 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: specific questions like have you been hospitalized? Have you not? Um? 328 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: You know, one insurance company told me that, you know, 329 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: they are looking at the severity of the case, that 330 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: they of the severity of the disease that you had. UM. 331 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: You know, but it's nobody knows really yet, you know, 332 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: kind of like I said, even if you have an 333 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: asymptomatic case, you know, you could still have long term damage. UM. 334 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: You know, insurance companies are telling me that this is 335 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: not an automatic disqualifier. UM. But then again, you know, 336 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: we are seeing people denied coverage, so UM. You know, 337 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: insurers are are recommending that you know, if you had 338 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen, maybe you know, wait a couple of months 339 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: before you apply for a policy. UM that has seen 340 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: some people have seen success that way. UM. But you know, 341 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: it turns out that if you know you had COVID 342 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: nineteen and you are approved of a policy, you might 343 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: end up having to pay more for skimp your plan. 344 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: You talk to someone who said, this is a classic 345 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: insurance reaction, that this happened after AIDS and Stars. Tell 346 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: us what the insurance companies did after AIDS and Stars 347 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: and whether we still see any of that in the 348 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: policy applications. Right, so my sort my sources are telling 349 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: me that, and you know, insurance companies are scared here, um, 350 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: and that they reacted similarly like you said, after the 351 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: AIDS epidemic in the eighties and the STARS outbreak in 352 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: the early two thousands. UM. The difference here though, between 353 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: AIDS and COVID nineteen is insures UM saw AIDS as 354 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: assured death sentence, and that's not necessarily the case with 355 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. Like I said, there's still this lack of mortality, UM, 356 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: you know data, so they're not really sure what the 357 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: future looks like. UM. You know, and now that we 358 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: have a vaccine, UM, you know, this problem might resolve 359 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: itself in a couple of months. If the vaccine has 360 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: proven effective at stopping the virus and protecting people. UM so, 361 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, we might not see as many denials come 362 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: with COVID nineteen as we did with AIDS. But similar 363 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: things happened um with those two uh you know, diseases, 364 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: where insurance company started asking specific questions on their application forms. 365 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: Could a state pass a regulation to stop insurance companies 366 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: from considering COVID at all? I'm the tr on that one. 367 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: If states have the power to do that potentially, and 368 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: there are some states that have um already put out 369 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: guidance to say, hey, insurers don't do this. And the 370 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,479 Speaker 1: Connecticut Insurance Department was one at those very early at 371 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: the start of the pandemic. UM they put out guidance 372 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: that said, don't ask about COVID nineteen on your application forms. 373 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: UM And so far, you know, they've gotten some complaints 374 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 1: of some companies who have tried to and you know, 375 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: after being contacted by the insurance department, thing, you're in 376 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: violation of this guidance that we put out, you know, 377 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: the insurance company stuff doing that. UM. So it's it's 378 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: entirely possible that a state could step in UM. There 379 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: is such a thing such are called the Insurance Compact, 380 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: which regulates the regulates insurance companies in forty four states. UM. 381 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: And so that they could decide to put out guidance 382 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: that says, you know, you can do this and you 383 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: can't do that, and they already have UM put out 384 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: some guidance on the pandemic and how insurance companies should 385 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: respond to it. Tell us about the guidance that they 386 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: put out at the start of the pandemic. Right, So, 387 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: they put out guidance at the start of the pandemic 388 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: basically saying, you know, insurance companies aren't allowed to add 389 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: these writers their policies that deny someone to pay out 390 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: a benefit. UM. They said that you can't ask just 391 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: you know, generic questions like have you had symptoms of 392 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: COVID that there actually has to be a specific diagnosis 393 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: from a medical professional that goes with it before you know. 394 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: When you're when you're asking questions on your application forms 395 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: for someone who hasn't gone through it, explain the sort 396 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: of process of getting life insurance. It's not as easy 397 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: as just signing up or even filling out an application form. 398 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: That's right, UM. Applying to live interns is actually a 399 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: pretty involved process. You know, some people might have to 400 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: go through a medical exam and you have to answer, um, 401 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: you know, a litany of questions about your medical history, 402 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: and you have to provide access to your medical records 403 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 1: through your doctor. UM. And so for that reason, you know, 404 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: life insurance experts UM are advising people not to lie 405 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: on their application forms because if it is found that 406 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: you had COVID nineteen and you knew about it, and 407 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: you lie to the insurance company when you apply for 408 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: a policy, and they can come back later and deny 409 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: you a payout of the benefits that your wrote. We 410 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: know that with Obamacare that insurance companies can't deny insurance 411 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: to someone with pre existing conditions. Could Congress pass a 412 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: law doing the same for life insurance potentially? That's right, 413 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: so Obamacare, and and that's where I think a lot 414 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: of people, UM, there's been some confusion. UM. You know, 415 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: Obamacare is has that clause in it that protects you 416 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: if you have a pre existing condition, that says that 417 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: health insurance companies can't deny you um just for you know, 418 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: having a prior you know, disease or medical medical condition, 419 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: which now includes COVID nineteen, but there's nothing like that 420 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: right now on the books for life insurance companies, and 421 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: so that's why there's they have this power to deny 422 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: you a plan, and so it's entirely possible that Congress 423 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: could take action. Here are any of the companies weighing 424 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: denying people life insurance who have COVID and as those 425 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: numbers go up and losing the money they get from 426 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: people who are paying for life insurance, right, I think 427 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: that's definitely you know, a risk that they take, you know, 428 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: in denying plans, they could be missing out on you know, 429 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: revenue um that could be from you know, from selling 430 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: these insurance policies, you know, insure. If you're telling me that, 431 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, hey, we're still businesses. We want to make sunny, 432 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: we still want to offer you know, people insurance policies 433 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: and good times and bad um. So they're really trying 434 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: to make these hard decisions about, you know, whether to 435 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: to deny or grant policies. What's the best advice you've 436 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: heard from the experts about what to do if you've 437 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: been turned down for life insurance because of COVID. Experts 438 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,239 Speaker 1: are definitely saying shop around UM, that you should go 439 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: even before you start the application process. Actually that you 440 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: should start and get multiple quotes from different companies. UM. 441 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: And look at the it's so covered that's being offered. UM. 442 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: And then even if you spend a nied to go 443 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: and and and try somewhere else, there are a lot 444 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: of insurance companies in the marketplace. UM. And you know 445 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: some experts day that you know if you if you 446 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: had COVID nineteen and you survived and you have no 447 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: lingering symptoms, that you should have a wide open marketplace. 448 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: But I think it remains to be seen how true 449 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: that is. Thanks for being on the show, Lydia. That's 450 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: Lydia Wheeler, Bloomberg Law Senior Reporter. And that's it for 451 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. I'm June Grasso. 452 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening, and remember you can always 453 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. 454 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: You can find them on iTunes, SoundCloud, or wherever you 455 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: get your favorite podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. Please 456 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every week and now 457 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: at ten pm Eastern right here on Bloomberg Radio KA