WEBVTT - Wicked Words - Jillian Lauren: Behold the Monster 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.480 This story contains adult content and language, along with references 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.640 to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.000 I drum those yellow nails on the table, and he 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.159 was like, you got me, Okay, you got me? What 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:21.720 do you want to know? Do you want to know 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:28.080 about the first one? 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.839 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.879 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.240 true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:43.199 of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.199 around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.680 are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.360 crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.959 stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.920 Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.680 good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:08.800 behind the stories. What would it be like to interview 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:13.600 a serial killer? New York Times bestselling author Jillian Lauren knows. 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.800 Her haunting account of confronting Samuel Little is detailed in 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.959 her book Behold the Monster. It's an amazing story, and 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.040 in our chat, Jillian explains how she convinced Little to 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:32.559 tell her where one unknown victim was buried. I read 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.720 an article that said that Samuel Little has been underreported 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:39.560 because he's black. Do you think that that's right? Do 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.480 you think that this is some sort of racism within 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.720 how we report on serial killers, that they are the 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:47.080 typical white male. 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.160 I think that is a piece of it. I think 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.120 a larger piece of it is that because his victims 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.720 were You know, there's this concept that is not mine, 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.680 but I use it and have sort of popularized it recently, 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.160 being less did you know that there are certain victims 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.400 that are more dead, and certain victims that are lested, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.480 and victims that are lesstad were the victims that were 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:17.280 cherry picked by Sam Little because he knew that people 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:22.120 wouldn't listen, wouldn't care. They were largely women of color, 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:27.960 sex workers, not all of them, often addicted, marginalized women 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.080 who lived on the fringes of society, who you know, 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.840 in a sense, were considered less human already. And when 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.320 a quite beautiful co ed goes missing on spring break, 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.880 that person is the most dead. It'll make all the 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:50.120 front page news, and even Sam's conviction for three murders 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.320 in the eighties didn't get all that much coverage. It 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:58.600 wasn't until this second round of jailhouse confessions where he 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.440 really showed the world till he was stopped professing his innocence, 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:07.079 that he was exposed for who he was and anyone 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:09.160 started to take interest. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.239 Well, let's do a very short summary of Samuel Little 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.840 before we really can get into the victims and then 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:17.160 your relationship with him. 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:22.320 Sam Little was, as I have been told by his family, 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:24.720 trouble from the day he was born. Because I think 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.160 a lot of we want to know their stories because 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.440 we're looking for the whys. He was molested by a 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:32.840 member of his family when he was four years old. 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:38.040 He wound up in a reform school, the Boys Industrial School, 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.400 at the age of thirteen, for stealing a bicycle for 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:46.400 nineteen months, and it was a famously abusive place and 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.560 he sustained a lot of head trauma there. He began 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.880 boxing there. He wound up spending you know, until he 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:59.320 was twenty five, in and out of institutions, the Ohio 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.720 State Reform may which you will know from Shawshank Redemption. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.720 So when he got out of there, you know, he 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.360 wanted to be a pimp. He wanted to be gangster. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.600 He wanted to be a fighter. He was a middleweight 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:17.000 boxing champ in prison, and at that time it was 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:21.479 a funnel sometimes to the professional fights. And it turned 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.640 out that he really just needed time to find his 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.920 true passion, which was murder. 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.320 How did that start for him? He's obviously out and 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.719 free at some point. Is there some sort of a 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.440 trigger for him that changed everything? 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.400 Like many serial killers will, hear in an early interest 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:46.800 in pornography or violent pornography, and in Sam's days, so 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:51.560 we're talking about nineteen fifty four that he was going 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.520 into dime stores and stealing true detective magazines and he 0:04:55.600 --> 0:05:00.880 started to read about strangulation and he got fixated on 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.320 it and had always been fixated on necks since a 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.400 little girl in his fifth grade class who was stuck 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.440 up was mean to him and she had a long neck, 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:17.080 and he fantasized about strangling her, fantasized about strangling his teacher, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:24.240 and he was unable to have sexual relations without strangling 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.640 a woman. It wasn't until he was almost thirty that 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.920 he killed his first victim, but he had been thinking 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:36.240 about it and building up to it all that time. Eventually, 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.120 the girlfriend he was with. Her name was Jean. She 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.880 was thirty years older than him. They were together for 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.560 fifteen years, and she was a master shoplifter and they 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:52.440 drove around the country together and she would shoplift and 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:57.200 he would sometimes shoplift by date, but mostly she would 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.760 to support them, and then he'd go out at night 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.359 and elicit sex workers or you know, a vulnerable woman 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:03.839 at a bar. 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.720 Ultimately, what is the number of victims? I know it 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.240 varies based on what he says, what the police said, 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.039 what he was convicted on. What are the number of 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.080 victims that we think it is before you meet him? 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:20.160 It was only three. He was convicted on three DNA hits, 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.760 three case to case hits that the cold case special 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.880 section in Los Angeles Police Department had a grant from 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.960 the Department of Justice to screen cold case evidence and 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.800 they were screening evidence from the eighties and that's how 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:40.719 they got these hits. The number of official confessions that 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.400 he gave to the FBI and local police jurisdictions is 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:51.400 ninety three. The current number of salts is sixty two, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:56.120 and those were cleared or cleared by exceptional means. I 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:01.040 had no idea, no idea. 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.719 Let's go back. He's been convicted and what happens? Do 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.520 you see the story and you think, Wow, this is 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:10.480 an opportunity to get into somebody's head who really is depraved, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.320 and to try to figure out what happened. And if 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.920 you can help in any way, you write him a letter, 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:17.800 reach out to him. And when did that happen? 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.960 Well, the story found me. I was working on a 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:25.800 mystery novel and I scored an interview with this famous 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.920 police detective, detective Mitzi Roberts. Who if anyone's a fan 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.440 of Michael Connolly, and I think everyone's a fan of 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:36.720 Michael Connolly. The character of Renee Ballard is based on her. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.280 She's a tough interview to get. She's a tough interview 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.280 to do too, And so I was interviewing her about 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:49.480 some historical LA crimes, just about procedure, about her career 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.640 in general. At the very end of the interview, as 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.760 I often do, try to end an interview on a 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.559 high note, I said, what are you the most proud 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.640 of She said, I'm proud of them all. But I 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.920 did catch this serial killer once and I was like, 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.920 I buried the lead, you know, And she said, I'm 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.520 not the one asking the questions here. And so she 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:16.800 told me about Sam, how she found him, about the 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:21.560 national manhunt for him because he was transient, so they 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.760 had to locate him, didn't know if he was still 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.520 out there killing or not. I was fascinated by both 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.440 the forensics the detective work that went into it, and 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.400 also she told me that, you know, she'd gone on 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:39.400 this cross country trip talking to detectives who all thought 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:43.640 they had cold cases that really looked like Sam's, mo 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.520 that they could match up with him. I mean the 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:52.680 benefit of his enormous rap sheet is that it's often 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.800 easy to tell he was incarcerated on that day, so 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.240 it wouldn't have been possible. It's helpful in that way 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.199 to know where he was. But she said that alikes 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.920 just wasn't able to really mobilize the effort. There are 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.000 so few resources for cold cases. Who cares. There's no 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:14.640 one advocating for these missing women. Many times there are 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:19.040 no family members coming forward. There were transgender victims who 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.120 were likely misgendered, and you know their friends wouldn't have 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.040 come forward because it was illegal. Yeah, so I thought, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.320 this is an underreported story about a serial killer who 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:35.720 possibly killed many more women, and I could put some 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:40.000 heat on it. You know. My own trauma really drove 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.440 me a little bit, gave me that extra mph when 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:45.720 it was like, oh gosh, I have to really try 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:47.960 to get into a prison. Figure out how do I 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.400 get into a prison? And so I wrote them a letter, 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:55.360 and then I applied to get my visitor's clearance, you know, 0:09:55.440 --> 0:10:00.760 and it takes months. So I exchanged these letters with him, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.880 and then the day came and I was able to 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.040 go and visit him in prison. 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.760 Set the scene for me about where this is happening 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.040 and what it looks like. Is this a contact visit 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.080 where you actually get to see him face to face 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.080 or is there a glass in between you or a mesh. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.280 I've done to all three when I worked for then 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.480 since clinic at UT so I mean, I've had contact 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.320 visits with killers where you're there on the other side 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.360 of a round table. What was your experience with him? 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.520 I had no idea what to expect. First of all, 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.600 all I knew I knew a couple of scumbags who 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.319 had done some time at California State Prison, Los Angeles. 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.960 So I called them and they said, you know, you'll 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.440 never get an appointment, get there at six in the morning. 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.079 Wait online. They started finding the cars in at nine thirty, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.160 and you know you'll get a number and then wait 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.280 and bring quarters because you're not cool if you don't 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.560 bring quarters. And all you can have is quarters in 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:00.199 a clear bag, quarters, key fob, and your glass, this 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.840 prescription and some photographs. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.040 What okay, now you have to explain all of that 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.160 except the key fave and probably the photographs. 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.559 Well you can because in order to bring in glasses 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.400 or anything that you know, i'd I have to show 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:14.040 my prescription. 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.280 Oh wow, okay, what about the quarters, Well. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.840 The quarters are for the vending machine. So so the 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.280 answer is it was a contact visit and that is 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.080 not what I was expecting at all. Oh when I 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.680 you know, they're like, just go to B block. Okay. 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.960 So I walked through the California desert. It is one 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.120 hundred and ten degrees in the shade out there. It 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.800 is you know, there's a real filling, a biblical kind 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.280 of punishment to this prison. You know, mile high fences 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.000 with constantina wire and the guard towers and the big cages. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.000 You walk through. All of that I was expecting, but 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.840 I was not expecting to walk into a room where 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:03.440 there were just tables and and families sitting there, like 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.400 you know, inmates holding their babies, and you know, in 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:09.880 an area for the kids to play with legos, and 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:15.720 a photo booth and vending machines all around. Microwaves, I 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.760 was really surprised. I had fully expected the you know, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:24.240 like glass, you know, hand on the glass with the phone, 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.640 and there was that in the corner. But they always 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.600 put me a front and center. I was also always 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:31.479 being recorded. 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.760 Was that the case for everybody or just in this case. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.400 It's the case for everybody. Everyone's always being recorded. There's 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.120 you know, nineteen cameras in that room. In this case, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.920 I didn't know that I had inserted myself into the 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:51.800 middle of a federal investigation. So just as cops, federal 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:58.040 Texas Rangers, local cops are about to try to crack 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.440 this guy, this journalist shows up, I think the Texas 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:03.920 Ranger James Holland, who is you know, one of the 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:08.040 main players in the current you know, Sam Little investigation 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:09.280 that's still ongoing. 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.480 So Sam Little sits down across from you. You have a 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:14.439 contact visit, which was terrifying. 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.080 No, he doesn't sit down. He's already sitting. He's in 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.959 a wheelchair. Oh. I was looking at the door the 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.160 other inmates were coming in and out of. But there 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.920 must have been like a special door for his disability 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:28.760 because he rolled up behind me. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.360 Oh WHOA. Okay, So he had been convicted of three. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.120 Had he confessed to any others at this point, Well. 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.960 There were attempted murders that you know, got pled down 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.040 to kidnapping and assault in San Diego. He was acquitted 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:49.080 in Florida in a latchu of Florida for the murder 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.640 of Patricia Mount because they said there was like a 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.040 lack of physical evidence. And then there was a failure 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.880 to indict by a grand jury for the murder of 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.800 Melinda La Prix in Pasca Go in Mississippi. So he 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:06.080 had never confessed to anything. He always just said, you know, 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.959 DNA doesn't prove that I did anything, It just proves 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.480 that I was there. Also, there was so much evidence 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.280 destroyed there. You know, he murdered in the South and 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.200 a lot of that evidence was destroyed during Hurricane Katrina. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.000 You know, he professed his innocence until the moment that 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:23.720 he didn't. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.960 What is his demeanor is he aloof is he friendly? 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:27.920 What's he like? 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:33.880 Oh, he's friendly. It was seventy eight. But you know, 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.520 my feeling about him was like that he looked like 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:44.120 a ghost. There was just an absence to him immediately, 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.800 and he said, ooh, we you're my angel, come to 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:52.400 visit me from heaven. God knew I was lonely, so 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.400 he sent you to me, and from there it was 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:59.120 transaction after transaction for years with him. 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.920 Did you yourself as his friend at all and confident 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:03.400 on or? I mean, what was the dynamic? 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.520 I mean the dynamic was you know, I felt like 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.560 I was at war, but that war looked a lot 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.560 like friendship. There was, you know, a rapport I had 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.400 to establish with him. These people aren't a joke and 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.160 it's not a TV movie of the week, so I knew, like, 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.640 just don't go into a room and start lying to him. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.880 It took me being willing to be vulnerable, being willing 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.960 to tell him the truth in order for him to 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.920 start opening up to me. And you know, at the end, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:35.880 I think he was pretty much telling me the truth 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:37.120 to the best of his ability. 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.200 What were the things that you were telling him about you? 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.400 I told him anything He asked, well, I talked about 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:49.400 my kids and you know, my meat loaf, and gave 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.840 him what I like to think of is a window 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.840 into what it's like to actually be human. And he 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.600 would pretend to sort of understand that and want to 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.880 know that. And he had advice about parent garranting. But 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.840 you know, in his fantasy life, if you had just 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.280 met the right woman. Now, he said to me, if 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.560 I had just met you, I would have been a 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.440 whole different man. You know, we'd have kids. So you know, 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.080 he had this really positive self concept and you know 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.040 he'd been wronged by the world. He was a victim. 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.600 Oh gosh. Katherine Ramslin and I have talked about that 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.880 the forensic psychologists, where she says people with psychopathy oftentimes 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:27.520 it's a poor me. 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.160 The serial killer even oh yeah, btk. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.360 She said it was every time she interviewed him and 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.920 was lamenting when things would go wrong, not in just 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.240 his life but with the murders, and it's as if 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.240 that was normal, like, well, shit, I just got a 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.000 parking ticket. She said. It was like that. It was like, 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.320 I can't believe this happened. He had that attitude too, 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:49.840 Sam Little Absolutely. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.360 I mean when you say, like I got a parking ticket. 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.640 I have a great example. I had a conversation with 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.480 him where he said, you know, all sins are equal. 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.080 I'm forgiven. He leaved. You know, he was right with Jesus. 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.800 He was saved. He was forgiven. Thought all you needed 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.840 to do was ask every time he killed somebody, he 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.560 asked to be forgiven, and he was forgiven. That's Saint Paul, 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.560 that's the Bible. And I was like, I don't agree 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:19.640 with you, and he said, that's Jesus, that's the Bible. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.840 And I said, you know, I think even there's a 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:27.439 hierarchy in the Bible, and he goes, no, killing is 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.280 no different from stealing a cookie from the cookie jar. 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.720 I was like, well, there are like the ten commandments, 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.720 so let's say one number one. And he couldn't get it. 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:42.399 He didn't even know the first commandment. And it's just 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:48.000 like Jesus is not your apologist, but it's complicity bias, right, 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.840 Like he found justification for what he wanted. He wanted 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.560 and he took There was no question that that was 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.360 what he deserved and that God made him that way. 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.359 Got you know, I said, well, it sounds like you 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.919 were lonely, He said, no, I was hungry. I didn't 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:08.960 ask to be born liking cake. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.520 What did he say his motivation was? Could he articulate 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.080 anything at all about what was going on in his 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.760 screwed up mind during all of this love? 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.640 You know, he said, you know, everyone has it wrong 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.960 about me. I don't hate women. I love women. All 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.560 I ever wanted them to do is cry in my arms. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.600 And then, you know, and then they snubbed me. Then 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.760 they turned away from me, and then they turned their 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.520 noses up, you know, and there's snobby bitches. 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:53.920 Was he enamored with you? Do you think? 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.159 No? I don't. I think he didn't want to be alone. 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.879 I think he wanted a friend and anyone a journalist, 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.199 and then you know, I think by the time he 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:08.000 started confessing, I don't think it was his impulse. His 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.480 impulse was attention. I mean, you know, he had all 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.320 these detectives coming, you know, bringing him oranges from Florida, 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:21.280 bringing him barbecue from Kentucky, just flattering, flattering, flattering him, 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.680 getting these confessions out of him, trying to match their 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.960 cold cases. He was having the time of his life. Yeah, 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.520 he was getting McDonald's milkshakes he was getting to talk 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:36.160 to this journalist. He was just really having a good time. 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:41.080 But then he started to feel the effects of the fame, 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:47.119 get the fan letters and people paying for traces of 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:48.200 his hand. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:49.880 Ugh, it's disgusting. 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:55.119 It's disgusting. And you know, once he started to get that, 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.919 then he started to really enjoy it and played to 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:02.200 it and start to get into the ego place where 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.919 he was just like, I did this thing, you know, 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.840 like I did the most in the world. I was 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.640 the best. You know, I did this in the shadows. 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.840 No one. They just thought I was a petty thief 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.280 and the whole time I was a murderer. I fooled 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:18.000 them all. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.040 How does the first confession to you happen and then 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:23.440 the rest just spill out? 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:28.080 Yeah, once the damn broke. I mean it was always 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.919 back and forth and he would mess with me. But 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.800 you know how the first confession happened was you know, 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.320 I'd been sitting with him, like in total for over 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:41.280 six hours, and I was just like, this is it. 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.480 If he keeps bullshiting me, I'm out, Like I don't 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.000 have this kind of time. I'm missing my kid's soccer game. 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:49.440 You know, I'm not going to sit here and listen 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.200 to how innocent he is and how they've done him wrong. 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.040 He started to tell a story about this woman and 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.399 get kind of lost in his own mind, and he 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.640 stopped him and he said I want a TV and 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.600 I said I want things too. He's like, are you 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:08.679 going to get me a TV? And I was like, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.240 I don't know, am I? And he was like a 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.080 drum those yellow nails on the table and he was like, 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.760 you got me, Okay, you got me. What do you 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:19.439 want to know? Do you want to know about the 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.239 first one? And then he just started this real like 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.480 incantation of murders. I mean it was like thirteen that 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:32.440 first day. I was, you know, I was just keeping 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.920 my eye on the ball. At that point, I was like, 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.600 there is no room here for sentimentality or her or shock. 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.520 Just remember every single thing he says, Remember every single 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:44.160 thing he does. 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:46.320 Did he know everybody's name? 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:48.800 He knew almost no one's name. 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:50.840 Because they were anonymous to him. 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.359 Yeah, I mean he didn't spend enough time. The murder 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.960 that I solved from bottom to top was a woman 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:01.600 named Alice, and he knew her name. He remembered her 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:03.639 name because he thought it was a pretty name, and 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:06.560 that was actually one of the things that helped us 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:07.600 saw that case. 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.800 So tell me what happens with Ellis, when it happens, 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:11.760 and where and all of them. 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:16.880 So, in the middle of this nationwide investigation, we're hit 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:22.360 with COVID, Black Lives Matter protests are happening. Cold cases 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.000 got really put to the side for a while, and 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:30.480 I just had all the confessions and all this information, 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:35.320 and I just decided to start really exploring them in depth, 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:37.359 one by one, just in the same way I was 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:41.159 exploring these women's lives, you know, by meeting their families, 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:46.479 by walking their footsteps. So I began to, you know, 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:51.600 follow his confession, Like he gives very specific directions that 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:54.880 he drove. And if you're not in Los Angeles, none 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:56.040 of this is going to make sense to you. But 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.000 I can just say that basically, he was saying he 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:02.879 left the body under underpass on a street that was 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.639 on its way to the beach. Except that was in 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.960 North South Street, and here the beach is west. It's 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:12.280 the east west streets that go to the beach. You 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:15.000 don't get more west than this beach, you know. I 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:18.240 found the place he picked her up I found the 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:22.800 liquor store she went, and I could not find the 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.600 place that he said he dumped his body. And I 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.040 just started thinking about things that didn't often gel in 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.440 his confessions, and one of those was how long he drove, 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:36.640 because he drove so much. I mean, his cars were 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:41.119 where he killed. He drove from one city to another, 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.439