1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: I drum those yellow nails on the table, and he 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 2: was like, you got me, Okay, you got me? What 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: do you want to know? Do you want to know 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: about the first one? 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: behind the stories. What would it be like to interview 18 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: a serial killer? New York Times bestselling author Jillian Lauren knows. 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: Her haunting account of confronting Samuel Little is detailed in 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: her book Behold the Monster. It's an amazing story, and 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: in our chat, Jillian explains how she convinced Little to 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: tell her where one unknown victim was buried. I read 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: an article that said that Samuel Little has been underreported 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: because he's black. Do you think that that's right? Do 25 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: you think that this is some sort of racism within 26 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: how we report on serial killers, that they are the 27 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: typical white male. 28 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: I think that is a piece of it. I think 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: a larger piece of it is that because his victims 30 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: were You know, there's this concept that is not mine, 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: but I use it and have sort of popularized it recently, 32 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: being less did you know that there are certain victims 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: that are more dead, and certain victims that are lested, 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: and victims that are lesstad were the victims that were 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: cherry picked by Sam Little because he knew that people 36 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't listen, wouldn't care. They were largely women of color, 37 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: sex workers, not all of them, often addicted, marginalized women 38 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: who lived on the fringes of society, who you know, 39 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: in a sense, were considered less human already. And when 40 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: a quite beautiful co ed goes missing on spring break, 41 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: that person is the most dead. It'll make all the 42 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: front page news, and even Sam's conviction for three murders 43 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: in the eighties didn't get all that much coverage. It 44 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: wasn't until this second round of jailhouse confessions where he 45 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: really showed the world till he was stopped professing his innocence, 46 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 2: that he was exposed for who he was and anyone 47 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: started to take interest. 48 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: Well, let's do a very short summary of Samuel Little 49 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: before we really can get into the victims and then 50 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: your relationship with him. 51 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: Sam Little was, as I have been told by his family, 52 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: trouble from the day he was born. Because I think 53 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: a lot of we want to know their stories because 54 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: we're looking for the whys. He was molested by a 55 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: member of his family when he was four years old. 56 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: He wound up in a reform school, the Boys Industrial School, 57 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: at the age of thirteen, for stealing a bicycle for 58 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: nineteen months, and it was a famously abusive place and 59 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: he sustained a lot of head trauma there. He began 60 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: boxing there. He wound up spending you know, until he 61 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: was twenty five, in and out of institutions, the Ohio 62 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: State Reform may which you will know from Shawshank Redemption. 63 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: So when he got out of there, you know, he 64 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: wanted to be a pimp. He wanted to be gangster. 65 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: He wanted to be a fighter. He was a middleweight 66 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: boxing champ in prison, and at that time it was 67 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: a funnel sometimes to the professional fights. And it turned 68 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: out that he really just needed time to find his 69 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: true passion, which was murder. 70 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: How did that start for him? He's obviously out and 71 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: free at some point. Is there some sort of a 72 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: trigger for him that changed everything? 73 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: Like many serial killers will, hear in an early interest 74 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: in pornography or violent pornography, and in Sam's days, so 75 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: we're talking about nineteen fifty four that he was going 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: into dime stores and stealing true detective magazines and he 77 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: started to read about strangulation and he got fixated on 78 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: it and had always been fixated on necks since a 79 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: little girl in his fifth grade class who was stuck 80 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: up was mean to him and she had a long neck, 81 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: and he fantasized about strangling her, fantasized about strangling his teacher, 82 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: and he was unable to have sexual relations without strangling 83 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: a woman. It wasn't until he was almost thirty that 84 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: he killed his first victim, but he had been thinking 85 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: about it and building up to it all that time. Eventually, 86 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: the girlfriend he was with. Her name was Jean. She 87 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: was thirty years older than him. They were together for 88 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: fifteen years, and she was a master shoplifter and they 89 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: drove around the country together and she would shoplift and 90 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: he would sometimes shoplift by date, but mostly she would 91 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: to support them, and then he'd go out at night 92 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 2: and elicit sex workers or you know, a vulnerable woman 93 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: at a bar. 94 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: Ultimately, what is the number of victims? I know it 95 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: varies based on what he says, what the police said, 96 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: what he was convicted on. What are the number of 97 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: victims that we think it is before you meet him? 98 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: It was only three. He was convicted on three DNA hits, 99 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: three case to case hits that the cold case special 100 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: section in Los Angeles Police Department had a grant from 101 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: the Department of Justice to screen cold case evidence and 102 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: they were screening evidence from the eighties and that's how 103 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 2: they got these hits. The number of official confessions that 104 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: he gave to the FBI and local police jurisdictions is 105 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: ninety three. The current number of salts is sixty two, 106 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: and those were cleared or cleared by exceptional means. I 107 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 2: had no idea, no idea. 108 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: Let's go back. He's been convicted and what happens? Do 109 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: you see the story and you think, Wow, this is 110 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: an opportunity to get into somebody's head who really is depraved, 111 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: and to try to figure out what happened. And if 112 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: you can help in any way, you write him a letter, 113 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: reach out to him. And when did that happen? 114 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: Well, the story found me. I was working on a 115 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: mystery novel and I scored an interview with this famous 116 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: police detective, detective Mitzi Roberts. Who if anyone's a fan 117 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: of Michael Connolly, and I think everyone's a fan of 118 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: Michael Connolly. The character of Renee Ballard is based on her. 119 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: She's a tough interview to get. She's a tough interview 120 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: to do too, And so I was interviewing her about 121 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: some historical LA crimes, just about procedure, about her career 122 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: in general. At the very end of the interview, as 123 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: I often do, try to end an interview on a 124 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,559 Speaker 2: high note, I said, what are you the most proud 125 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: of She said, I'm proud of them all. But I 126 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: did catch this serial killer once and I was like, 127 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: I buried the lead, you know, And she said, I'm 128 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: not the one asking the questions here. And so she 129 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: told me about Sam, how she found him, about the 130 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: national manhunt for him because he was transient, so they 131 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: had to locate him, didn't know if he was still 132 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: out there killing or not. I was fascinated by both 133 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: the forensics the detective work that went into it, and 134 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: also she told me that, you know, she'd gone on 135 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: this cross country trip talking to detectives who all thought 136 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: they had cold cases that really looked like Sam's, mo 137 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: that they could match up with him. I mean the 138 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 2: benefit of his enormous rap sheet is that it's often 139 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: easy to tell he was incarcerated on that day, so 140 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been possible. It's helpful in that way 141 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 2: to know where he was. But she said that alikes 142 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: just wasn't able to really mobilize the effort. There are 143 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: so few resources for cold cases. Who cares. There's no 144 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: one advocating for these missing women. Many times there are 145 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: no family members coming forward. There were transgender victims who 146 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: were likely misgendered, and you know their friends wouldn't have 147 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: come forward because it was illegal. Yeah, so I thought, 148 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 2: this is an underreported story about a serial killer who 149 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: possibly killed many more women, and I could put some 150 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: heat on it. You know. My own trauma really drove 151 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: me a little bit, gave me that extra mph when 152 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: it was like, oh gosh, I have to really try 153 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: to get into a prison. Figure out how do I 154 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: get into a prison? And so I wrote them a letter, 155 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: and then I applied to get my visitor's clearance, you know, 156 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: and it takes months. So I exchanged these letters with him, 157 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: and then the day came and I was able to 158 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: go and visit him in prison. 159 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: Set the scene for me about where this is happening 160 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: and what it looks like. Is this a contact visit 161 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: where you actually get to see him face to face 162 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: or is there a glass in between you or a mesh. 163 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: I've done to all three when I worked for then 164 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: since clinic at UT so I mean, I've had contact 165 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: visits with killers where you're there on the other side 166 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: of a round table. What was your experience with him? 167 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: I had no idea what to expect. First of all, 168 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: all I knew I knew a couple of scumbags who 169 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 2: had done some time at California State Prison, Los Angeles. 170 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: So I called them and they said, you know, you'll 171 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: never get an appointment, get there at six in the morning. 172 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 2: Wait online. They started finding the cars in at nine thirty, 173 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: and you know you'll get a number and then wait 174 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: and bring quarters because you're not cool if you don't 175 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: bring quarters. And all you can have is quarters in 176 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 2: a clear bag, quarters, key fob, and your glass, this 177 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: prescription and some photographs. 178 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: What okay, now you have to explain all of that 179 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: except the key fave and probably the photographs. 180 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 2: Well you can because in order to bring in glasses 181 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: or anything that you know, i'd I have to show 182 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: my prescription. 183 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, what about the quarters, Well. 184 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: The quarters are for the vending machine. So so the 185 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: answer is it was a contact visit and that is 186 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: not what I was expecting at all. Oh when I 187 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 2: you know, they're like, just go to B block. Okay. 188 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: So I walked through the California desert. It is one 189 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: hundred and ten degrees in the shade out there. It 190 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: is you know, there's a real filling, a biblical kind 191 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 2: of punishment to this prison. You know, mile high fences 192 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: with constantina wire and the guard towers and the big cages. 193 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: You walk through. All of that I was expecting, but 194 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: I was not expecting to walk into a room where 195 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 2: there were just tables and and families sitting there, like 196 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: you know, inmates holding their babies, and you know, in 197 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: an area for the kids to play with legos, and 198 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: a photo booth and vending machines all around. Microwaves, I 199 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: was really surprised. I had fully expected the you know, 200 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: like glass, you know, hand on the glass with the phone, 201 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: and there was that in the corner. But they always 202 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: put me a front and center. I was also always 203 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:31,479 Speaker 2: being recorded. 204 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: Was that the case for everybody or just in this case. 205 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: It's the case for everybody. Everyone's always being recorded. There's 206 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: you know, nineteen cameras in that room. In this case, 207 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: I didn't know that I had inserted myself into the 208 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: middle of a federal investigation. So just as cops, federal 209 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: Texas Rangers, local cops are about to try to crack 210 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: this guy, this journalist shows up, I think the Texas 211 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: Ranger James Holland, who is you know, one of the 212 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: main players in the current you know, Sam Little investigation 213 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: that's still ongoing. 214 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: So Sam Little sits down across from you. You have a 215 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 1: contact visit, which was terrifying. 216 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: No, he doesn't sit down. He's already sitting. He's in 217 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 2: a wheelchair. Oh. I was looking at the door the 218 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: other inmates were coming in and out of. But there 219 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: must have been like a special door for his disability 220 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: because he rolled up behind me. 221 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: Oh WHOA. Okay, So he had been convicted of three. 222 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: Had he confessed to any others at this point, Well. 223 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: There were attempted murders that you know, got pled down 224 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: to kidnapping and assault in San Diego. He was acquitted 225 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 2: in Florida in a latchu of Florida for the murder 226 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: of Patricia Mount because they said there was like a 227 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: lack of physical evidence. And then there was a failure 228 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 2: to indict by a grand jury for the murder of 229 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: Melinda La Prix in Pasca Go in Mississippi. So he 230 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: had never confessed to anything. He always just said, you know, 231 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 2: DNA doesn't prove that I did anything, It just proves 232 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: that I was there. Also, there was so much evidence 233 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: destroyed there. You know, he murdered in the South and 234 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: a lot of that evidence was destroyed during Hurricane Katrina. 235 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: You know, he professed his innocence until the moment that 236 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: he didn't. 237 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: What is his demeanor is he aloof is he friendly? 238 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: What's he like? 239 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: Oh, he's friendly. It was seventy eight. But you know, 240 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: my feeling about him was like that he looked like 241 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: a ghost. There was just an absence to him immediately, 242 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: and he said, ooh, we you're my angel, come to 243 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: visit me from heaven. God knew I was lonely, so 244 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: he sent you to me, and from there it was 245 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 2: transaction after transaction for years with him. 246 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: Did you yourself as his friend at all and confident 247 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: on or? I mean, what was the dynamic? 248 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: I mean the dynamic was you know, I felt like 249 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: I was at war, but that war looked a lot 250 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: like friendship. There was, you know, a rapport I had 251 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: to establish with him. These people aren't a joke and 252 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: it's not a TV movie of the week, so I knew, like, 253 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: just don't go into a room and start lying to him. 254 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: It took me being willing to be vulnerable, being willing 255 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: to tell him the truth in order for him to 256 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: start opening up to me. And you know, at the end, 257 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: I think he was pretty much telling me the truth 258 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: to the best of his ability. 259 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: What were the things that you were telling him about you? 260 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: I told him anything He asked, well, I talked about 261 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: my kids and you know, my meat loaf, and gave 262 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: him what I like to think of is a window 263 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: into what it's like to actually be human. And he 264 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: would pretend to sort of understand that and want to 265 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 2: know that. And he had advice about parent garranting. But 266 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: you know, in his fantasy life, if you had just 267 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: met the right woman. Now, he said to me, if 268 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: I had just met you, I would have been a 269 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: whole different man. You know, we'd have kids. So you know, 270 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: he had this really positive self concept and you know 271 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: he'd been wronged by the world. He was a victim. 272 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: Oh gosh. Katherine Ramslin and I have talked about that 273 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: the forensic psychologists, where she says people with psychopathy oftentimes 274 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: it's a poor me. 275 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: The serial killer even oh yeah, btk. 276 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: She said it was every time she interviewed him and 277 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: was lamenting when things would go wrong, not in just 278 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: his life but with the murders, and it's as if 279 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: that was normal, like, well, shit, I just got a 280 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: parking ticket. She said. It was like that. It was like, 281 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: I can't believe this happened. He had that attitude too, 282 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: Sam Little Absolutely. 283 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: I mean when you say, like I got a parking ticket. 284 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: I have a great example. I had a conversation with 285 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: him where he said, you know, all sins are equal. 286 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: I'm forgiven. He leaved. You know, he was right with Jesus. 287 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: He was saved. He was forgiven. Thought all you needed 288 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: to do was ask every time he killed somebody, he 289 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: asked to be forgiven, and he was forgiven. That's Saint Paul, 290 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: that's the Bible. And I was like, I don't agree 291 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: with you, and he said, that's Jesus, that's the Bible. 292 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: And I said, you know, I think even there's a 293 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 2: hierarchy in the Bible, and he goes, no, killing is 294 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: no different from stealing a cookie from the cookie jar. 295 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 2: I was like, well, there are like the ten commandments, 296 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: so let's say one number one. And he couldn't get it. 297 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: He didn't even know the first commandment. And it's just 298 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: like Jesus is not your apologist, but it's complicity bias, right, 299 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: Like he found justification for what he wanted. He wanted 300 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 2: and he took There was no question that that was 301 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 2: what he deserved and that God made him that way. 302 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: Got you know, I said, well, it sounds like you 303 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 2: were lonely, He said, no, I was hungry. I didn't 304 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: ask to be born liking cake. 305 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: What did he say his motivation was? Could he articulate 306 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: anything at all about what was going on in his 307 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: screwed up mind during all of this love? 308 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 2: You know, he said, you know, everyone has it wrong 309 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: about me. I don't hate women. I love women. All 310 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: I ever wanted them to do is cry in my arms. 311 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: And then, you know, and then they snubbed me. Then 312 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: they turned away from me, and then they turned their 313 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: noses up, you know, and there's snobby bitches. 314 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: Was he enamored with you? Do you think? 315 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 2: No? I don't. I think he didn't want to be alone. 316 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: I think he wanted a friend and anyone a journalist, 317 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 2: and then you know, I think by the time he 318 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: started confessing, I don't think it was his impulse. His 319 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: impulse was attention. I mean, you know, he had all 320 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: these detectives coming, you know, bringing him oranges from Florida, 321 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: bringing him barbecue from Kentucky, just flattering, flattering, flattering him, 322 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: getting these confessions out of him, trying to match their 323 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: cold cases. He was having the time of his life. Yeah, 324 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: he was getting McDonald's milkshakes he was getting to talk 325 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 2: to this journalist. He was just really having a good time. 326 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: But then he started to feel the effects of the fame, 327 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 2: get the fan letters and people paying for traces of 328 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 2: his hand. 329 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: Ugh, it's disgusting. 330 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 2: It's disgusting. And you know, once he started to get that, 331 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 2: then he started to really enjoy it and played to 332 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: it and start to get into the ego place where 333 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 2: he was just like, I did this thing, you know, 334 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: like I did the most in the world. I was 335 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 2: the best. You know, I did this in the shadows. 336 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: No one. They just thought I was a petty thief 337 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: and the whole time I was a murderer. I fooled 338 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: them all. 339 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: How does the first confession to you happen and then 340 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: the rest just spill out? 341 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, once the damn broke. I mean it was always 342 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: back and forth and he would mess with me. But 343 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 2: you know how the first confession happened was you know, 344 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: I'd been sitting with him, like in total for over 345 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: six hours, and I was just like, this is it. 346 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: If he keeps bullshiting me, I'm out, Like I don't 347 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: have this kind of time. I'm missing my kid's soccer game. 348 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to sit here and listen 349 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 2: to how innocent he is and how they've done him wrong. 350 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: He started to tell a story about this woman and 351 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 2: get kind of lost in his own mind, and he 352 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 2: stopped him and he said I want a TV and 353 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: I said I want things too. He's like, are you 354 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: going to get me a TV? And I was like, 355 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: I don't know, am I? And he was like a 356 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 2: drum those yellow nails on the table and he was like, 357 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: you got me, Okay, you got me. What do you 358 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 2: want to know? Do you want to know about the 359 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,239 Speaker 2: first one? And then he just started this real like 360 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: incantation of murders. I mean it was like thirteen that 361 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 2: first day. I was, you know, I was just keeping 362 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: my eye on the ball. At that point, I was like, 363 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: there is no room here for sentimentality or her or shock. 364 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: Just remember every single thing he says, Remember every single 365 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 2: thing he does. 366 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: Did he know everybody's name? 367 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: He knew almost no one's name. 368 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: Because they were anonymous to him. 369 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he didn't spend enough time. The murder 370 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: that I solved from bottom to top was a woman 371 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: named Alice, and he knew her name. He remembered her 372 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: name because he thought it was a pretty name, and 373 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: that was actually one of the things that helped us 374 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: saw that case. 375 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: So tell me what happens with Ellis, when it happens, 376 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: and where and all of them. 377 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 2: So, in the middle of this nationwide investigation, we're hit 378 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 2: with COVID, Black Lives Matter protests are happening. Cold cases 379 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: got really put to the side for a while, and 380 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 2: I just had all the confessions and all this information, 381 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: and I just decided to start really exploring them in depth, 382 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 2: one by one, just in the same way I was 383 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: exploring these women's lives, you know, by meeting their families, 384 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 2: by walking their footsteps. So I began to, you know, 385 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: follow his confession, Like he gives very specific directions that 386 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 2: he drove. And if you're not in Los Angeles, none 387 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: of this is going to make sense to you. But 388 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 2: I can just say that basically, he was saying he 389 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: left the body under underpass on a street that was 390 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 2: on its way to the beach. Except that was in 391 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: North South Street, and here the beach is west. It's 392 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: the east west streets that go to the beach. You 393 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: don't get more west than this beach, you know. I 394 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 2: found the place he picked her up I found the 395 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: liquor store she went, and I could not find the 396 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: place that he said he dumped his body. And I 397 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: just started thinking about things that didn't often gel in 398 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 2: his confessions, and one of those was how long he drove, 399 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: because he drove so much. I mean, his cars were 400 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 2: where he killed. He drove from one city to another, 401 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 2: you know, almost every day, if not every three days. 402 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: He was always on the move, so he had a 403 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: weird concept of driving and time. And also this is 404 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: when he was on crack, when his mind started to 405 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 2: get a little more adult, and it was possible that 406 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: he took a turn he didn't remember, and he said 407 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: he was going to Dominique College. And then it started 408 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 2: to occur to me that, you know, everything was right 409 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: about it, except if you took this one turn, you'd 410 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: be going to Long Beach. Long Beach is south from here. 411 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 2: It's not the Beach, it's a town called Long Beach. 412 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 2: And in this town there's a college called cal State Domingus. 413 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 2: Once I brought in the scope of where I was looking, 414 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: I found some articles that seemed to match his confession, 415 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: and I went to the place and confirmed the details, 416 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: and then I called Detective Rick Jackson. I really thought 417 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 2: that I had enough. I just condensed that. I mean, 418 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 2: that case took me probably six months, wow, because he 419 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 2: didn't always want to talk about it, and it was 420 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: a lot of me going back to him and saying 421 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 2: it couldn't have been this. I called it to to 422 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: Rick Jackson, who is the original template for the Harry 423 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: Bosch character in the HBO show, and he's retired now 424 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: and he's sort of a mentor of mine. It's always 425 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: good to have if you can have a cop call 426 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: for you so you don't sound like the crazy person 427 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 2: calling the tip line, you know, like I solved a murder. Yeah. 428 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: And he was like, give me, give me a minute, 429 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: and he called Long Beach and coming back in twenty 430 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: minutes and he was like, you're sitting down, you know. Yes, 431 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 2: they have his case and it is still open and 432 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: the victim, the victim is identified and her name is 433 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 2: Alice Denise Duvall. Well, you could have knocked me over 434 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: with a feather. I was like, well, you know, I mean, 435 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: I know that doesn't confirm it. It doesn't. He's like, 436 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: you know, it pretty much does, kiddo, Like you solved 437 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 2: a murder very close with their family. 438 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: Now it was just a cold case right at that point? 439 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: Did they do any DNA? 440 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: Yes? And then of course yeah. I mean you know, 441 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: when I say solved a murder, then I always have 442 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 2: to clarify I can't solve a murder. I'm not a detective. 443 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: But that I did walk into Long Beach Police Department 444 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: with you know, and give them all the information, the 445 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 2: drawings I had, the articles, the overhead maps, the historical 446 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 2: overhead maps, all that and the confession and then they 447 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 2: were able to run a YSDR DNA and they got 448 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: a partial and they cleared the case. 449 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: What was Sam Little's reaction when you told him this that, well, 450 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: I took your information and I went and now you're 451 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: connected to this case. Were you able to tell him. 452 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 2: That, yeah, I was on the phone with him. 453 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: Did he freak out? What was his reaction? 454 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 2: He said, he was like, you did good. I think 455 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: you did good, honey, you did really good? God? 456 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: What was that? What does that mean is that he's 457 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: trying to be sort of a father figure to you 458 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: and both of you, so you'll continue to speak with him. 459 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: Or did he want to help really in a twisted way? 460 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: No, he wanted he wanted all the benefits of helping. 461 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like he wanted to help because 462 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: he cared about the victims or their families, or. 463 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: He wanted recognition. 464 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 2: He wanted that recognition and also he wanted to be 465 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: seen as a good guy who wanted to help. 466 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: So this is one case over the span of how 467 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: long how many people did he confess to killing? 468 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 3: To you specifically, Well, there was a point at which 469 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 3: the Texas Rangers asked me if I could back off 470 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 3: my conversations with him about the murders because it was 471 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 3: such an intense investigation, and you know, he could tell. 472 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 2: A Wing that story. But if he tells a Wing 473 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: that story to me and then I call in with it, 474 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: you know, then that just gives them a whole bunch 475 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: of other details they have to investigate if they think 476 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 2: they've already got it. They were like, you know, don't 477 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 2: contaminate the investigation, you know, by solving these yourself. You know. 478 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 2: So there was a time that I did back off 479 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 2: it when it was during the really heavy confessions. So 480 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: you know, I would say I got probably thirty six 481 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: or thirty seven detailed confessions out of him. 482 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's amazing. Is this something he would have 483 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: done with anybody or any journalist who would have given 484 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: him the time and the patience to sit there and 485 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: listen to him eventually. Or do you think it was 486 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: something between the two of you that made him feel valued, 487 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: whether it was a value for you, you know, your value 488 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: was not his wonderful stories. The value to you was 489 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: getting answers for victims, helping law enforcement, and of course 490 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: the book. 491 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and understanding trying to understand, you know how we're 492 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 2: always trying to understand these egregious and aberran people who seem, 493 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: you know, inhuman. You know, he did have great stories, 494 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: But yeah, I was doing this to keep them talking. 495 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: I was doing this to get the book. I was 496 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: doing it to get the end of the story. I 497 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: was doing it because at this time, by that time, 498 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: you know, I was so committed to the victims. It 499 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: just I feel like that I'd been living with them 500 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 2: for so long, you know, every minute of every day, 501 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: just in my thoughts and in my dreams, and I 502 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: was really committed to doing everything I can to restore 503 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: their names, restore their humanity, to try to give them 504 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: a voice, you know, I mean, I can never give 505 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: them back their voice but I thought it was a 506 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: worthy effort to try. 507 00:29:54,200 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: How does this relationship ultimately end? Or the confessions do 508 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: they wind down naturally? I know the rangers said, back off. 509 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: Do you ever return to that? 510 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: I do return to them, And that was when I 511 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: was I started to look more deeply into the confessions. 512 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: And that was when I was solving the Alice case 513 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: and trying on a couple of others, you know, I 514 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 2: mean it's still ongoing, and how it ended. His confessions 515 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 2: got they just got more confused. There were so many. 516 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 2: I think they had less value to me at the end. 517 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 2: You know, I knew he was going to die at 518 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: some point, and I thought, you know, would I be comfortable? 519 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: You know, I would keep a little list of questions. 520 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: I'd be like, if this is the last time you 521 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: get to talk to him, what are the things you 522 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: think are the most important? To know You're never going 523 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: to get every last bit of information out of him. 524 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: We'll be left with whatever we get here. Now. I 525 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: got a text at about five in the morning on 526 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: December thirtieth, twenty twenty, and it said pick up your phone. 527 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: It was from one of the detectives involved in the case, 528 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 2: and an hour later, I got a call from the 529 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: prison and the individual on the phone told me that 530 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: Sam Little had died of complications from COVID and we're 531 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 2: sorry for your loss. And I just didn't know what 532 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: to say to that. I was like, no, don't apologize 533 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: to me for this or feel like I need comfort. 534 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 2: It was just kind of this sort of like shocking 535 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: feeling of quiet because I'd been so hyper vigilant, you know, 536 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: I carried my phone and a reporter's notebook around the 537 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: house with me and a little side purse, because god 538 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: forbid i'd be outside with the dogs and miss a 539 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 2: call from a detective or from Sam. If I missed 540 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 2: a call, then I'd get punished for days. So he 541 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 2: was just very controlling in that way. I don't think 542 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: anyone could have done it. No, well, I do think 543 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: I have an understanding that you let them tell you 544 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: who to be, you know. I let him tell me 545 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 2: what he sort of needed. And then I became that. 546 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: Are the police grateful or are they annoyed or sometimes 547 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: both at your involvement in this? Yes, I answered yes 548 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: on all of that. 549 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 2: Okay, I think that I've had every kind of experience 550 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: with law enforcement on this there is a general resistance 551 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: to the press from law enforcement. It tends to be 552 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: an insular community. So that's a classic. You know, there's 553 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 2: always going to be a back and forth, you know, 554 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: especially when you're talking to the FBI. You know, they 555 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 2: really have very specific questions you can ask and are 556 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: monitoring you, and you have to go through a lot 557 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: of people, and so, you know, I think that many 558 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 2: of the cops were incredibly gracious with me. I say grateful, 559 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: They were gracious. They helped me. I had a question 560 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 2: for them, you know, how to look at something or 561 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 2: how to understand something, and they were very supportive for 562 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: the most part, or you wouldn't talk to me at all. 563 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: So Sam Little does one last thing before he does, 564 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: and I know that it must have been a shock 565 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: to you. He leaves you everything right in his will. 566 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, he left me all of his possessions. 567 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that must have just been like, what the hell. 568 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 2: Yes, but I knew that he was naming me his 569 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: next of kin because I wanted to donate his brain 570 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 2: to these neuroscientists at UC Irvine and at Stanford, and 571 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: he also knew that. And then you know, it was 572 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: the middle of COVID when he died, there were meat 573 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: trucks at the coroner's office. His paperwork wasn't in order, 574 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 2: and you know, by the time I could have gotten 575 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: his brain, it was useless. So that was like a 576 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 2: real shame. But I didn't know that that was going 577 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: to happen. I just I had hoped it would happen differently. 578 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 2: You know, I was trying to make a silk purse 579 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 2: out of a sow's ear. I'm like, listen, you guys, 580 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 2: I'm not being gohole, but this brain needs to be 581 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 2: kept at this temperature, you know, until we work this out. 582 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 2: But you know they weren't or weren't willing or couldn't 583 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 2: comply at the time. So yeah, I was so surprised 584 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 2: when the boxes of his stuff showed up. And then 585 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: I tell this one story about Sam that I think 586 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: really encompasses, you know how many levels he was always 587 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: working on. So at the very end our last conversation 588 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 2: before then he went to the medical unit and I 589 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: didn't talk to him again for ten days before he died. 590 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 2: He was like, you know, you sent me ram in, 591 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 2: but you didn't send me a hot pot or just 592 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: like these other bitches. You know how popular. I am 593 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 2: right now, you know how much I can make from, 594 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 2: you know, just drawing my hand for somebody. And then 595 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 2: I got a letter in the mail from the prison 596 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: and I opened it and he left me one thousand 597 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 2: and ninety seven dollars and something since and I was like, 598 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: he had this money all along, He had all this 599 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 2: money all along. 600 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: What did all of that mean? Ultimately, I mean, just 601 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: to end this, Why did he do that? What did 602 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: that symbolize to you? 603 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 2: He was always on the make. You know, you couldn't 604 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: trust him at all. I could never trust him. I 605 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 2: could only trust that the whatever barter I offered him 606 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 2: at whatever time was valuable enough for him to hold 607 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: up his end of the bargain, or I'd be gone, 608 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 2: blabbing her whole story to another reporter, robably gone. 609 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: Clearly another illustration of a transactional relationship that sounds like 610 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: a terrible thing for me to say. Transactional relationship sounds 611 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: so cold. But you are, in your book, are allowing 612 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: people to understand just a little bit more about someone 613 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: who affected so many people and cost terror for people. 614 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: You know, and you also this work while I know 615 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: it has gone into a book that you benefit from 616 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: this work has helped close chapters for families hopefully moving forward, because, 617 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: as you said, this is an open investigation that must 618 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: feel gratifying to a certain extent, but it also has 619 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: to be still, like is the stink off of you yet? 620 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: From Sam Little and spending all that time listening to 621 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 1: everything he had to say. 622 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: Never it really was the story of a lifetime in 623 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 2: some ways, you know that story wait for bet are 624 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 2: scared of? You know. I was sure I couldn't do it. 625 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: I didn't feel equal to it. You know. I was 626 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 2: so overwhelmed by all of a sudden dealing with all 627 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:06,720 Speaker 2: this law enforcement and legal issues, and you know, having 628 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 2: my record subpoenad, I thought, this is going to be 629 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: the one I can't do. It's going to be the 630 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 2: one I fail, you know, And I failed in many ways. 631 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 2: I made many mistakes, and those are all there in 632 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 2: the book too. But you know, I do think that 633 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 2: it's a journey, and yes, we do want to see 634 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 2: inside the mind of monsters, you know, and we also 635 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 2: want to see into the heart of humanity. I hope 636 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: that I can both bring attention to the issue of 637 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 2: violence against women and the dismissal of violence against women, 638 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 2: particularly marginalized women. That is my great hope. 639 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 640 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 641 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 642 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi. Our associate 643 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 644 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 645 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 646 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 647 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you know 648 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 649 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info 650 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for 651 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words