WEBVTT - Chapter 5 | The Receipts 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.640 Heads up. This series contains graphic descriptions of violence. 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:09.559 I want you to tell me. We're gonna go all 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.200 the way back in this case. We're gonna go all 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.880 the way back to July the thirtieth or two thousand 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.040 and I want you to start third and tell me 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.000 exactly how you got involved in this case. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:25.799 And what happened. 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.120 Got involved in this case is due to the fact 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:33.800 I was the last person to see Jaska alive. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.640 Nearly ten years after the trial and conviction of Quincy Cross, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.479 Venetia Stubblefield sat down with a private investigator. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:47.800 We don't do. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.239 Interviews like other people doing. There will be no turning off, 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:54.920 no cameras unless it's an emergency or unless you have 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:56.320 to go to a bathroom. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.960 This is a familiar scene, Venetia sitting at a table 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.679 with her hands on her lap, her anxious eyes cast downward, 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.320 answering yet another question about the murder of Jessica Curran. 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.959 Anything to say in this room about this case is 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.280 going to be on this tape. They understand. 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.040 The first time police interviewed Venetia, she was sixteen years old, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.880 going on seventeen and four years Veneisha maintained that on 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.880 a Saturday night in the summer of two thousand, she 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.720 hung out with Jessica, played cards and had some. 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.200 Drinks, and then Tom passing by. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.000 We didn't realize it until it was like fifteen twenty 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.200 minutes to two, so we got up, we lay off. 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:51.600 They said goodbye, never to see each other again. That 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.160 story changed though, in two thousand and seven, when Venetia 0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:00.000 became one of the state's main witnesses and implicated Quinn 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:04.880 he crossed as the ringleader in Jessica's brutal murder. But 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.920 now Venetia says that story, the one used in court, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:10.200 is a lie. 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:12.600 They literally made me say that I was there at 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.480 jessica curse. It's the crown scene when Jessica's being killed. 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.160 They literally made me say that I took part in it. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.160 They literally made me say that I took a match 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.680 and struck and threw it on her. They made me 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.040 say that I pore guests on her. They made me 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.560 say that I took party into having sexual contacts with 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.320 her when she was already dead, and everything. 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.080 A lie that she fabricated. When agents with the Kentucky 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.960 Bureau of Investigation, the KBI took over as lead investigators 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:41.880 for the case. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:43.680 This the KD. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.639 I threatened you in any kind of way in this case. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:49.360 You'll stay in. 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.200 Tell me how they had told me. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.280 That I did not come forward and tell the truth 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:00.160 on him killed Jusica, that they would make sure that 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.520 That's been the rest of my life in prison. I 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:08.320 want never see my family, my friends, the Yale, all 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:13.640 kinds of stuff. And yes I'm a meeting. Yes I 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:18.000 was wrong because I should have thought about everything before 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.400 I said what I say it and at that time 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.840 I was gullible and I wouldn't really focus. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:25.160 Right. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.600 I've spoken to Venetia and she also told me this. 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:39.120 So that makes two prosecution witnesses recanting, first Rosie and 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.680 now Venetia. The dominoes that make up the state's case 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:49.640 seem to be falling. However, there is one key person 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.880 who made the prosecution's charges and convictions possible. 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.240 Victoria, don't you I paid to make up a whole 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:57.720 story just to get rid of this case. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.440 Rosie's sister, Victoria, you called well and get money, right, Yeah, 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:02.920 and get money? 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.400 Yes, she got paid to do this case. Yes, she 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:06.240 got paid to do it. 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.440 And what Victoria will go on to say involves more 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.880 than some threats or the scheming of citizen investigators. Susan Goallbreath. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.200 It implicates law enforcement and not only the investigators with 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:31.120 the Kentucky Attorney General's Office, but one of the state's 0:04:31.440 --> 0:05:15.000 top prosecutors as well. This is Graves County, Chapter five, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:27.560 the receipts. At the end of last episode, you heard 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:32.360 victorious sister Rosie Christ telling me she'd been coerced into lying. 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:37.400 But Rosie says it wasn't only threats. Law enforcement also 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.920 persuaded her with money. They paid me a hundred dollar 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.240 bill to call people. It's detector Sam Stiger with the 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.440 Kentecta State Police. Today's date is June fifth, two thousand 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.520 and six. One of those people was her cousin. 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.360 We will be making a phone call to tamer Caldwell. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.440 Kyle Tamery and if she knew anything about Quincy being 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.080 a blob in this case, we'll give you a hundred dollars. 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:06.279 And she says, yes, Hello, Hey, Nanaey is Tamra home? 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:14.600 No count talk to her, I said, tama Uh. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.880 Officers have been asking me lately if you knew anything 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.720 about Quincy Cross's involvement in the career in case, anything 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.360 about him being I knew you had knew. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.080 That Quincy was involved in the murder. I ain't know 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.040 about nobody else. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:34.000 She ain't hurt nothing yet, Yeah, she. 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:38.279 Said, yeah, I heard, Yeah, I know. Tamra doesn't say 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.640 anything else about the case. They go on to talk 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.839 about a family gathering over the weekend. 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:45.960 Did you see what one was bringing the kids back 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.440 down on Saturday? 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.479 But Rosie says that didn't matter to law enforcement. Yeah, 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.040 I know it was enough for them, and a few 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.640 dollars were enough for Rosie to betray her own family. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.880 Those weren't great years for Rosie. You mentioned you were 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.960 on drugs back then, and you would have said anything 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:06.640 for one hundred buck. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:07.360 Yeah, I was on crack. 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.240 Okay, Beck, you sure was. 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.320 They really tapped into people who had a lot to lose, 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:15.760 but also a lot to gain. 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.360 Miranda Hellman again the attorney for the Kentucky Innocent's Project. 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.800 She says law enforcement took advantage of people, people. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.360 Kind of living on the periphery, maybe even folks who 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.640 didn't have stable homes, who had young children and were 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:33.800 really young children. 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:38.720 Themselves, like Venetia and Rosie and Victoria who was only 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.360 fifteen at the time of the murder, and around twenty 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.600 one when she reached out to Rosie saying they could 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:50.600 make some money. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.760 Yeah, and if I had heard she was lost. 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.200 Money, let me Rosie told this to the same private 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:05.600 investigator you heard earlier, she said himself. Miranda says Victoria 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.080 had been financially struggling at the time. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.960 So they really tapped into two things. I think they 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.560 played good cop, bad cop with her and making threats 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:16.680 that if you aren't gonna work with us, you could 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.400 lose your kids, but then also giving her incentives. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.880 At one point there was a nine thousand dollars reward 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.160 for any tips that helped solve the murder, but I 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.800 haven't been able to confirm if anyone ever claimed the cash. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.680 Still money or the promise of financial gain has always 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:37.640 loomed over this case. 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.800 I was hearing rumors of hey, witnesses were paid off, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.960 there were some bad cops involved, and as I started 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.160 to dig into the discovery, all those things really played 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:47.760 out to be true. 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:58.000 At one point in her investigation, Miranda visited with Venetia, 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.120 she was in jail on an unrelated charge. At first, 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.720 Venishia didn't want to talk. But two hours later, Miranda 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.560 walked out with a full story similar to the one 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.120 you heard her tell the private investigator earlier. 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.280 They fortunately to say that Tamara has something to do 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:16.640 with it. 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.560 They forced me to say that she forgets something to 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:19.400 do with it. 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.839 And she says she didn't even meet Quincy until around 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.160 the time he was dating Tamra a few years after 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:26.960 the murder. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:29.240 No, I didn't even know who it was because I 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:30.360 because cousin. 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.720 I'm like, who is he? Yeah, Venetia is referring to 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:38.200 a conversation she had with Susan Galbreath. Remember, early on 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:43.000 in her investigation, Susan kept pushing Venetia to give up 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.960 Quincy's name. You heard a secret recording from Susan where 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.719 Venisha sounds confused and replies, well, what, I don't get 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:59.480 this put for that. Venetia is in her forties now, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.120 he's less wiry, and her giant eyes, once filled with 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.480 fear and defeat, are now gleaming with determination as she 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.760 speaks about her experience as a witness in this case. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.240 She's opened up to private investigators, to the Innocence Project, 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.680 my team, and to me, And on top of blaming 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:24.880 law enforcement. Venetia confirms what so many people have told 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:29.600 me that Susan played a big role in this case. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:31.840 Although she's diseased. 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.640 Letter recipes, but she's another reason why all my life 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:36.240 got messed. 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:36.600 Up as well. 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.840 Venetia is sitting with her mom chatting to one of 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:45.199 my producers, and Vanisha doesn't talk about Susan with bitterness. 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.560 Susan and Vanisha's mom were actually once friends. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.080 Susan used to stup parties that I have or whatever 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.400 and invite mom and my uncle and all them to 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:56.120 other parties. 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.680 But then Jessica Kurrn was killed, Jeremy Adams was charged, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.439 and the rest is history. 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:08.480 She was good friends with Jeremy Adams's mother, Donna, and 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:13.080 Donna was like girlfriends or whatever, and she was helping 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:17.560 Donna clare Jeremy's name, which is I mean, I understand 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.199 that's respectful, but at the same time, you still incriminated 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.360 a lot of people. You still put a lot of 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.160 people's name in it. They didn't have nothing to do 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:24.480 with it. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:30.720 And there was another motive, Venetia says, a much simpler one. 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:37.040 Susan Gabbert did it for the fame and for the money. 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.560 Susan did get her Outstanding Citizen Award from the Kentucky 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.520 Attorney General's Office for her role in helping solve the 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:49.000 current case. Tom Mangold wrote articles about her and her investigation. 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:54.240 The BBC aired a radio documentary touting her accomplishment, and 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:58.199 countless movie offers followed. In the emails obtained by the 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:03.000 Kentucky Innocence Project, Susan and Tom discuss splitting any money 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:08.719 fifty to fifty, though a feature film never materialized. And 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:13.080 I can't knock Susan, Victoria or anyone else for being 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:17.240 motivated by money. In this case, people are allowed to 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:22.199 have desires. That's not a crime. The problem comes when 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.320 the people with power, the state and law enforcement, take 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:32.040 advantage of people's weaknesses to get what they want. Miranda 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.480 says law enforcement ran with Susan Goallbres's theory and paid 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:40.280 Victoria Caldwell to back that story up in order to 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.960 close the case. And it was more than a measly 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:49.760 one hundred dollars much more. When Miranda Hellman started going 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:54.640 through footage of Quincy's trial, she says she noticed something odd. 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.440 There were many cross examination questions about were you paid? 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.040 The defense was asked asking these questions to witnesses like 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:03.240 Victoria Caldwell. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.400 You know, were you paid to be here today? Were 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.079 you paid for your testimony? Did you receive money from 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.320 the government? Did they pay for your meals? Did they 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:12.280 pay for your clothes? 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.000 What else did the KBI pay for you besides your 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.160 rent and your moving expenses? 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.480 The the utilities, the utilities. 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:24.480 Food. 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:31.040 No Morendus's Quincy's attorneys also asked the KBI agents whether 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.720 they paid for the meals and clothes of their main witness. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:39.000 And a lot of the answers to those questions were no, what. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:46.920 Other expenses were paid besides utilities and rent and moving? 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.319 Off the top of my head, sir, I believe it 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:56.679 was all the buried, you know. I'm sure at one 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.560 point in time we had to give her something need 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:00.480 so well, I thought that. 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.760 Was strange that these questions kept coming up, And then 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.719 I stumbled across the set of maybe two hundred pages. 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.800 Of receipts, receipts that, according to Miranda, the defense never 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.920 used in their cross examination and that showed law enforcement 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:23.920 was being untruthful under oath. When Victoria made contact with 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.720 Susan and first met the agents with the KBI in 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.680 two thousand and seven. She was living in California. Then 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.720 around March of that year, law enforcement moved Victoria into 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.640 witness protection in North Carolina because she claimed to be 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:39.840 afraid for her life. 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.200 Also sort of did the same thing with Venetia, but 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.200 they didn't really pay for nearly as many of her expenses. 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.920 They actually held her in jail while they held Victoria 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:52.160 in a paid condo. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:56.120 According to a court filing from the Kentucky Innocence Project, 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.600 the Office of the Attorney General and the Kentucky State 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.560 Police paid Victoria from February two thousand and seven to 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.480 January two thousand and eight. 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.360 She collected all of her receipts for all the meals 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.600 she ate, the food she bought, the clothes she bought, 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.680 the you know, living expenses, turned those in and then 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:18.520 the Attorney General's office would issue an authorization to pay 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:19.560 funds to her. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.920 Many of these receipts were filed under the state's witness 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.960 protection program. I've gone through them as well, and at 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.960 first glance they appear pretty standard a gas bill, groceries, 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.520 but then they start to branch out. 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.720 And so I started digging, and we found that they 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.200 included nights out bowling, going to a movie theater, going 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.120 out to eat, and it even included Margarita's and beers 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:53.680 at restaurants. It included phone cards, clothing items for her kids, 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.800 all of her gas, getting her car repairs done, new tires, 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.040 and then some really odd items. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:06.040 There was one receipt for Claire's accessories and another one 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:07.720 from a sex shop. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.240 And then we dug into the receipt and it appeared 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.040 to be a vibrator that she had purchased at a 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.320 one of those video stores in North Carolina. 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.640 According to Kentucky law, the Attorney General's office should reimburse 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.200 costs that are deemed reasonable and necessary for the protection 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.120 of a witness. It includes expenses for things like meals 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.960 and child's care, as far as I can tell, though 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.880 a vibrator is not on the list of approved items. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.160 In total, the Kentucky Innocence Project found that Victoria Caldwell 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.200 was paid at least seventeen thousand dollars in one year. 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.840 She was living on the state dime pretty freely and 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:51.440 really nicely for an extended period of time, while realistically 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.880 she had been charged as complicit in this murder and 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.560 should have been sitting in jail next to Venetia. They 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:58.600 knew they could not make this case without her, and 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:00.760 they had to do everything they could hold it together. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.119 So it just really looks to me and this is 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.800 just purely paying your witness to come in and testify 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.119 in the way that you want her to testify, and 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.000 also keep her under your exclusive control, hidden away in 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:17.920 a totally different state to make sure that very fragile 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:19.760 narrative doesn't fall apart. 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.960 Miranda is making the case to me and the courts 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.040 that law enforcement committed perjury at Quincy's trial when they 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.320 concealed the extent of the payments they made to Victoria. 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.640 And not only that, the top prosecutors with the state's 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:40.119 Attorney General's office enabled those lies. 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:45.720 We have law enforcement officers and special prosecutors from our 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:50.280 head prosecution body coming into a trial saying, we absolutely 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.920 didn't do anything that would put this case in jeopardy. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:55.159 We did not pay that witness. It was just for 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.159 her protection. Everything was above board, and of course a 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.440 aujury here's that they would have no reason to not 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.159 believe it. But the proof was sitting there the whole time. 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.280 According to the Kentucky Innocence Project, this is a clear 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.960 due process violation and as yet another reason Quincy Cross's 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:18.679 conviction should be vacated. My team has reached out to 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.760 the Office of the Attorney General several times, as well 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:26.199 as the lead prosecutor at Quincy's trial, Barbara Manswale. We 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:32.800 have not heard back, but we did hear from Victoria Caldwell. 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:56.320 That's after the break. I've reached out to Victoria a 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.840 few times and haven't heard back, but Miranda was a 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:01.080 to track her down. 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.840 Miranda Hellman August fourth, twenty twenty three, twelve fifty eight 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:10.480 pm in Cincinnati, Ohio, meeting Kenneth Nixon to go speak 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:11.879 to Victoria Caldwell. 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.760 Miranda found her living in Ohio and she brought along 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:20.879 Ken Nixon. Ken is from Detroit and he spent sixteen 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.000 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.280 He was exonerated a few years ago and now runs 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:32.200 his own organization helping exoneries get on their feet. Ken 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.640 knows what it's like to deal with the legal system. 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.840 Hell bent unscrewing over people without power, and I've known 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.359 him for years. He's tall, handsome and greets everyone with 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:44.359 a charming smile. 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:45.639 Hi, how are you? 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.160 I'm good looking for Victoria? 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:52.280 Yeah, how you doing? 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.159 Ken is exactly the kind of guy you want around 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:57.520 to put people at ease. 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.520 If you wouldn't mind, we'd like to have com ice words. 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.440 Victoria is nearing middle age, though she still looks baby faced. 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.000 Her black hairline is showing peaks of gray. 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:13.040 I'm acting this. 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:14.440 He'll now to talk about. 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.280 This case off the bat. Victoria says that Barbara Wayley, 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:22.119 the lead prosecutor, called her and told her not to 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:23.320 talk about the case. 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.080 Barbara Wayley, I mean, do you feel comfortable? 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:29.080 Name is the names or somebody we. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:29.480 Need to talk to? 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:30.960 Do We need to get it clear it with them first? 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:32.280 Oh? 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.639 Man, I call them, But Victoria takes out her phone 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:42.480 and dials first. The person she calls bab O'Neil hey 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.879 b one of the agents with the Kentucky Bureau of 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.800 Investigation who interrogated persons of interest at the Drury in 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:54.960 in Swites. They want to talk about the cave. Victoria 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.359 talks to O'Neill with familiarity. She's on a first named 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.200 basis with him. She calls Jess because killing from over 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:05.600 two decades ago. The case like they speak about it often. 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:12.040 O'Neil advises Victoria against saying anything, but she adds he said, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.280 once did I leave the rest told us Once Ken 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.880 and Miranda leave the residence, O'Neill will talk to them. 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:26.280 So they leave and Ken calls him, hello, I speak 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:33.000 to Bob. O'Neill sounds skeptical but friendly, and he tells 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.639 Ken that Victoria has had to deal with a lot. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.879 She she has faced a lot of trauma in her life, 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:46.280 even before that, before that murder took place, which kind 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.159 of the way she was brought up and. 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:52.960 Step and O'Neill says he still gives Victoria advice now 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:54.440 and then, is. 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:56.119 That why you told her not to talk to me today? 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:57.080 Yeah? 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.600 I told her, Yeah, she asked me for my opinion. 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.600 That told because you didn't go. 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.879 But they were determined. And a few weeks later, once 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:12.480 things cooled off, Ten messaged Victory on Facebook. Then he 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:13.200 called Miranda. 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:15.720 All right, he just looked at my message. I just 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:16.480 centered my number. 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.879 I tried to Miranda recorded the conversation and we've edited 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:22.880 the call for length and clarity. 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:26.080 Right now, okay, all right, I'm muting again. 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:29.440 Victoria wastes no time getting to business. 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:30.800 I was never there. 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:34.560 I never witnessed anything. Okay, how did they get you 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:34.920 to say? 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:35.080 What? 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:36.000 They got you to say? 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:37.040 What happened? 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.480 They told me they'll pick a needle on my arm 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.160 on the elevator at the jury it was called Jurianne 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:44.639 and Paducah, Kentucky. 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:50.879 Oh make my statement? Did they specifically tell you what 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:51.320 to say? 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:53.000 Is that how your story came about? 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:58.960 Yes, one officer, multiple officers. 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:06.160 Multiple from the Sutherland to Lee Wise, the main one. 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:10.600 Victoria is implicating a prosecutor with the Attorney General's Office 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:16.439 and agent Lee Wise with the KBI, O'Neill's partner. Okay, 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.480 how do you know qu I don't know him. 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.200 I've never met him a day of my life. 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:23.760 How do you know his name? 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:25.480 They gave it to me. 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:28.080 How do you know what he looked like? 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:33.800 They showed me? And she doesn't stop there. She tells 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:37.640 ken that the KBI not only had her lie, they 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:39.560 helped fabricate evidence. 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:42.679 There was some mention about a diary. 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:44.600 Can you give me a little more details about it? 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:46.880 I wrote it in the same day they came. 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.280 They're referring to the diary Victoria I read from a 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:55.200 trial where she detailed the aftermath of the murder along 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:59.040 with the belt. The prosecution used this diary to show 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:03.440 that Quincy and the others committed the crime, and Victoria 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:07.280 is saying she made it up that she didn't actually 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.400 write the diary entries. At the time of Jessica's death 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:16.320 in August of two thousand, then, Victoria confirms she's still 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.800 in touch with law enforcement, specifically bab O'Neil from the KBI. 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.600 He's always giving me money. 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:25.760 Okay, when you save money? 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:26.600 What kind of money? 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:28.399 Are we talking like a couple of hundred bucks just 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:29.960 to get by, or we're talking like a couple of 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:32.560 grand to help more than. 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:34.480 A couple of grand But he's always taken care of me. 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:36.439 Is it cash? 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:36.800 Jack? 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:38.399