Speaker 1: Heads up. This series contains graphic descriptions of violence.
Speaker 2: I want you to tell me. We're gonna go all
Speaker 2: the way back in this case. We're gonna go all
Speaker 2: the way back to July the thirtieth or two thousand
Speaker 2: and I want you to start third and tell me
Speaker 2: exactly how you got involved in this case.
Speaker 3: And what happened.
Speaker 4: Got involved in this case is due to the fact
Speaker 4: I was the last person to see Jaska alive.
Speaker 1: Nearly ten years after the trial and conviction of Quincy Cross,
Speaker 1: Venetia Stubblefield sat down with a private investigator.
Speaker 5: We don't do.
Speaker 2: Interviews like other people doing. There will be no turning off,
Speaker 2: no cameras unless it's an emergency or unless you have
Speaker 2: to go to a bathroom.
Speaker 1: This is a familiar scene, Venetia sitting at a table
Speaker 1: with her hands on her lap, her anxious eyes cast downward,
Speaker 1: answering yet another question about the murder of Jessica Curran.
Speaker 2: Anything to say in this room about this case is
Speaker 2: going to be on this tape. They understand.
Speaker 1: The first time police interviewed Venetia, she was sixteen years old,
Speaker 1: going on seventeen and four years Veneisha maintained that on
Speaker 1: a Saturday night in the summer of two thousand, she
Speaker 1: hung out with Jessica, played cards and had some.
Speaker 6: Drinks, and then Tom passing by.
Speaker 4: We didn't realize it until it was like fifteen twenty
Speaker 4: minutes to two, so we got up, we lay off.
Speaker 1: They said goodbye, never to see each other again. That
Speaker 1: story changed though, in two thousand and seven, when Venetia
Speaker 1: became one of the state's main witnesses and implicated Quinn
Speaker 1: he crossed as the ringleader in Jessica's brutal murder. But
Speaker 1: now Venetia says that story, the one used in court,
Speaker 1: is a lie.
Speaker 4: They literally made me say that I was there at
Speaker 4: jessica curse. It's the crown scene when Jessica's being killed.
Speaker 4: They literally made me say that I took part in it.
Speaker 4: They literally made me say that I took a match
Speaker 4: and struck and threw it on her. They made me
Speaker 4: say that I pore guests on her. They made me
Speaker 4: say that I took party into having sexual contacts with
Speaker 4: her when she was already dead, and everything.
Speaker 1: A lie that she fabricated. When agents with the Kentucky
Speaker 1: Bureau of Investigation, the KBI took over as lead investigators
Speaker 1: for the case.
Speaker 3: This the KD.
Speaker 2: I threatened you in any kind of way in this case.
Speaker 4: You'll stay in.
Speaker 6: Tell me how they had told me.
Speaker 4: That I did not come forward and tell the truth
Speaker 4: on him killed Jusica, that they would make sure that
Speaker 4: That's been the rest of my life in prison. I
Speaker 4: want never see my family, my friends, the Yale, all
Speaker 4: kinds of stuff. And yes I'm a meeting. Yes I
Speaker 4: was wrong because I should have thought about everything before
Speaker 4: I said what I say it and at that time
Speaker 4: I was gullible and I wouldn't really focus.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to Venetia and she also told me this.
Speaker 1: So that makes two prosecution witnesses recanting, first Rosie and
Speaker 1: now Venetia. The dominoes that make up the state's case
Speaker 1: seem to be falling. However, there is one key person
Speaker 1: who made the prosecution's charges and convictions possible.
Speaker 7: Victoria, don't you I paid to make up a whole
Speaker 7: story just to get rid of this case.
Speaker 1: Rosie's sister, Victoria, you called well and get money, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and get money?
Speaker 7: Yes, she got paid to do this case. Yes, she
Speaker 7: got paid to do it.
Speaker 1: And what Victoria will go on to say involves more
Speaker 1: than some threats or the scheming of citizen investigators. Susan Goallbreath.
Speaker 1: It implicates law enforcement and not only the investigators with
Speaker 1: the Kentucky Attorney General's Office, but one of the state's
Speaker 1: top prosecutors as well. This is Graves County, Chapter five,
Speaker 1: the receipts. At the end of last episode, you heard
Speaker 1: victorious sister Rosie Christ telling me she'd been coerced into lying.
Speaker 1: But Rosie says it wasn't only threats. Law enforcement also
Speaker 1: persuaded her with money. They paid me a hundred dollar
Speaker 1: bill to call people. It's detector Sam Stiger with the
Speaker 1: Kentecta State Police. Today's date is June fifth, two thousand
Speaker 1: and six. One of those people was her cousin.
Speaker 8: We will be making a phone call to tamer Caldwell.
Speaker 7: Kyle Tamery and if she knew anything about Quincy being
Speaker 7: a blob in this case, we'll give you a hundred dollars.
Speaker 7: And she says, yes, Hello, Hey, Nanaey is Tamra home?
Speaker 1: No count talk to her, I said, tama Uh.
Speaker 7: Officers have been asking me lately if you knew anything
Speaker 7: about Quincy Cross's involvement in the career in case, anything
Speaker 7: about him being I knew you had knew.
Speaker 1: That Quincy was involved in the murder. I ain't know
Speaker 1: about nobody else.
Speaker 4: She ain't hurt nothing yet, Yeah, she.
Speaker 1: Said, yeah, I heard, Yeah, I know. Tamra doesn't say
Speaker 1: anything else about the case. They go on to talk
Speaker 1: about a family gathering over the weekend.
Speaker 7: Did you see what one was bringing the kids back
Speaker 7: down on Saturday?
Speaker 1: But Rosie says that didn't matter to law enforcement. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know it was enough for them, and a few
Speaker 1: dollars were enough for Rosie to betray her own family.
Speaker 1: Those weren't great years for Rosie. You mentioned you were
Speaker 1: on drugs back then, and you would have said anything
Speaker 1: for one hundred buck.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I was on crack.
Speaker 1: Okay, Beck, you sure was.
Speaker 10: They really tapped into people who had a lot to lose,
Speaker 10: but also a lot to gain.
Speaker 1: Miranda Hellman again the attorney for the Kentucky Innocent's Project.
Speaker 1: She says law enforcement took advantage of people, people.
Speaker 10: Kind of living on the periphery, maybe even folks who
Speaker 10: didn't have stable homes, who had young children and were
Speaker 10: really young children.
Speaker 1: Themselves, like Venetia and Rosie and Victoria who was only
Speaker 1: fifteen at the time of the murder, and around twenty
Speaker 1: one when she reached out to Rosie saying they could
Speaker 1: make some money.
Speaker 10: Yeah, and if I had heard she was lost.
Speaker 1: Money, let me Rosie told this to the same private
Speaker 1: investigator you heard earlier, she said himself. Miranda says Victoria
Speaker 1: had been financially struggling at the time.
Speaker 10: So they really tapped into two things. I think they
Speaker 10: played good cop, bad cop with her and making threats
Speaker 10: that if you aren't gonna work with us, you could
Speaker 10: lose your kids, but then also giving her incentives.
Speaker 1: At one point there was a nine thousand dollars reward
Speaker 1: for any tips that helped solve the murder, but I
Speaker 1: haven't been able to confirm if anyone ever claimed the cash.
Speaker 1: Still money or the promise of financial gain has always
Speaker 1: loomed over this case.
Speaker 10: I was hearing rumors of hey, witnesses were paid off,
Speaker 10: there were some bad cops involved, and as I started
Speaker 10: to dig into the discovery, all those things really played
Speaker 10: out to be true.
Speaker 1: At one point in her investigation, Miranda visited with Venetia,
Speaker 1: she was in jail on an unrelated charge. At first,
Speaker 1: Venishia didn't want to talk. But two hours later, Miranda
Speaker 1: walked out with a full story similar to the one
Speaker 1: you heard her tell the private investigator earlier.
Speaker 6: They fortunately to say that Tamara has something to do
Speaker 6: with it.
Speaker 4: They forced me to say that she forgets something to
Speaker 4: do with it.
Speaker 1: And she says she didn't even meet Quincy until around
Speaker 1: the time he was dating Tamra a few years after
Speaker 1: the murder.
Speaker 4: No, I didn't even know who it was because I
Speaker 4: because cousin.
Speaker 1: I'm like, who is he? Yeah, Venetia is referring to
Speaker 1: a conversation she had with Susan Galbreath. Remember, early on
Speaker 1: in her investigation, Susan kept pushing Venetia to give up
Speaker 1: Quincy's name. You heard a secret recording from Susan where
Speaker 1: Venisha sounds confused and replies, well, what, I don't get
Speaker 1: this put for that. Venetia is in her forties now,
Speaker 1: he's less wiry, and her giant eyes, once filled with
Speaker 1: fear and defeat, are now gleaming with determination as she
Speaker 1: speaks about her experience as a witness in this case.
Speaker 1: She's opened up to private investigators, to the Innocence Project,
Speaker 1: my team, and to me, And on top of blaming
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Venetia confirms what so many people have told
Speaker 1: me that Susan played a big role in this case.
Speaker 6: Although she's diseased.
Speaker 4: Letter recipes, but she's another reason why all my life
Speaker 4: got messed.
Speaker 6: Up as well.
Speaker 1: Venetia is sitting with her mom chatting to one of
Speaker 1: my producers, and Vanisha doesn't talk about Susan with bitterness.
Speaker 1: Susan and Vanisha's mom were actually once friends.
Speaker 6: Susan used to stup parties that I have or whatever
Speaker 6: and invite mom and my uncle and all them to
Speaker 6: other parties.
Speaker 1: But then Jessica Kurrn was killed, Jeremy Adams was charged,
Speaker 1: and the rest is history.
Speaker 6: She was good friends with Jeremy Adams's mother, Donna, and
Speaker 6: Donna was like girlfriends or whatever, and she was helping
Speaker 6: Donna clare Jeremy's name, which is I mean, I understand
Speaker 6: that's respectful, but at the same time, you still incriminated
Speaker 6: a lot of people. You still put a lot of
Speaker 6: people's name in it. They didn't have nothing to do
Speaker 6: with it.
Speaker 1: And there was another motive, Venetia says, a much simpler one.
Speaker 4: Susan Gabbert did it for the fame and for the money.
Speaker 1: Susan did get her Outstanding Citizen Award from the Kentucky
Speaker 1: Attorney General's Office for her role in helping solve the
Speaker 1: current case. Tom Mangold wrote articles about her and her investigation.
Speaker 1: The BBC aired a radio documentary touting her accomplishment, and
Speaker 1: countless movie offers followed. In the emails obtained by the
Speaker 1: Kentucky Innocence Project, Susan and Tom discuss splitting any money
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty, though a feature film never materialized. And
Speaker 1: I can't knock Susan, Victoria or anyone else for being
Speaker 1: motivated by money. In this case, people are allowed to
Speaker 1: have desires. That's not a crime. The problem comes when
Speaker 1: the people with power, the state and law enforcement, take
Speaker 1: advantage of people's weaknesses to get what they want. Miranda
Speaker 1: says law enforcement ran with Susan Goallbres's theory and paid
Speaker 1: Victoria Caldwell to back that story up in order to
Speaker 1: close the case. And it was more than a measly
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars much more. When Miranda Hellman started going
Speaker 1: through footage of Quincy's trial, she says she noticed something odd.
Speaker 10: There were many cross examination questions about were you paid?
Speaker 1: The defense was asked asking these questions to witnesses like
Speaker 1: Victoria Caldwell.
Speaker 10: You know, were you paid to be here today? Were
Speaker 10: you paid for your testimony? Did you receive money from
Speaker 10: the government? Did they pay for your meals? Did they
Speaker 10: pay for your clothes?
Speaker 2: What else did the KBI pay for you besides your
Speaker 2: rent and your moving expenses?
Speaker 11: The the utilities, the utilities.
Speaker 3: Food.
Speaker 1: No Morendus's Quincy's attorneys also asked the KBI agents whether
Speaker 1: they paid for the meals and clothes of their main witness.
Speaker 10: And a lot of the answers to those questions were no, what.
Speaker 7: Other expenses were paid besides utilities and rent and moving?
Speaker 12: Off the top of my head, sir, I believe it
Speaker 12: was all the buried, you know. I'm sure at one
Speaker 12: point in time we had to give her something need
Speaker 12: so well, I thought that.
Speaker 10: Was strange that these questions kept coming up, And then
Speaker 10: I stumbled across the set of maybe two hundred pages.
Speaker 1: Of receipts, receipts that, according to Miranda, the defense never
Speaker 1: used in their cross examination and that showed law enforcement
Speaker 1: was being untruthful under oath. When Victoria made contact with
Speaker 1: Susan and first met the agents with the KBI in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. She was living in California. Then
Speaker 1: around March of that year, law enforcement moved Victoria into
Speaker 1: witness protection in North Carolina because she claimed to be
Speaker 1: afraid for her life.
Speaker 10: Also sort of did the same thing with Venetia, but
Speaker 10: they didn't really pay for nearly as many of her expenses.
Speaker 10: They actually held her in jail while they held Victoria
Speaker 10: in a paid condo.
Speaker 1: According to a court filing from the Kentucky Innocence Project,
Speaker 1: the Office of the Attorney General and the Kentucky State
Speaker 1: Police paid Victoria from February two thousand and seven to
Speaker 1: January two thousand and eight.
Speaker 10: She collected all of her receipts for all the meals
Speaker 10: she ate, the food she bought, the clothes she bought,
Speaker 10: the you know, living expenses, turned those in and then
Speaker 10: the Attorney General's office would issue an authorization to pay
Speaker 10: funds to her.
Speaker 1: Many of these receipts were filed under the state's witness
Speaker 1: protection program. I've gone through them as well, and at
Speaker 1: first glance they appear pretty standard a gas bill, groceries,
Speaker 1: but then they start to branch out.
Speaker 10: And so I started digging, and we found that they
Speaker 10: included nights out bowling, going to a movie theater, going
Speaker 10: out to eat, and it even included Margarita's and beers
Speaker 10: at restaurants. It included phone cards, clothing items for her kids,
Speaker 10: all of her gas, getting her car repairs done, new tires,
Speaker 10: and then some really odd items.
Speaker 1: There was one receipt for Claire's accessories and another one
Speaker 1: from a sex shop.
Speaker 10: And then we dug into the receipt and it appeared
Speaker 10: to be a vibrator that she had purchased at a
Speaker 10: one of those video stores in North Carolina.
Speaker 1: According to Kentucky law, the Attorney General's office should reimburse
Speaker 1: costs that are deemed reasonable and necessary for the protection
Speaker 1: of a witness. It includes expenses for things like meals
Speaker 1: and child's care, as far as I can tell, though
Speaker 1: a vibrator is not on the list of approved items.
Speaker 1: In total, the Kentucky Innocence Project found that Victoria Caldwell
Speaker 1: was paid at least seventeen thousand dollars in one year.
Speaker 10: She was living on the state dime pretty freely and
Speaker 10: really nicely for an extended period of time, while realistically
Speaker 10: she had been charged as complicit in this murder and
Speaker 10: should have been sitting in jail next to Venetia. They
Speaker 10: knew they could not make this case without her, and
Speaker 10: they had to do everything they could hold it together.
Speaker 10: So it just really looks to me and this is
Speaker 10: just purely paying your witness to come in and testify
Speaker 10: in the way that you want her to testify, and
Speaker 10: also keep her under your exclusive control, hidden away in
Speaker 10: a totally different state to make sure that very fragile
Speaker 10: narrative doesn't fall apart.
Speaker 1: Miranda is making the case to me and the courts
Speaker 1: that law enforcement committed perjury at Quincy's trial when they
Speaker 1: concealed the extent of the payments they made to Victoria.
Speaker 1: And not only that, the top prosecutors with the state's
Speaker 1: Attorney General's office enabled those lies.
Speaker 10: We have law enforcement officers and special prosecutors from our
Speaker 10: head prosecution body coming into a trial saying, we absolutely
Speaker 10: didn't do anything that would put this case in jeopardy.
Speaker 10: We did not pay that witness. It was just for
Speaker 10: her protection. Everything was above board, and of course a
Speaker 10: aujury here's that they would have no reason to not
Speaker 10: believe it. But the proof was sitting there the whole time.
Speaker 1: According to the Kentucky Innocence Project, this is a clear
Speaker 1: due process violation and as yet another reason Quincy Cross's
Speaker 1: conviction should be vacated. My team has reached out to
Speaker 1: the Office of the Attorney General several times, as well
Speaker 1: as the lead prosecutor at Quincy's trial, Barbara Manswale. We
Speaker 1: have not heard back, but we did hear from Victoria Caldwell.
Speaker 1: That's after the break. I've reached out to Victoria a
Speaker 1: few times and haven't heard back, but Miranda was a
Speaker 1: to track her down.
Speaker 13: Miranda Hellman August fourth, twenty twenty three, twelve fifty eight
Speaker 13: pm in Cincinnati, Ohio, meeting Kenneth Nixon to go speak
Speaker 13: to Victoria Caldwell.
Speaker 1: Miranda found her living in Ohio and she brought along
Speaker 1: Ken Nixon. Ken is from Detroit and he spent sixteen
Speaker 1: years in prison for a crime he did not commit.
Speaker 1: He was exonerated a few years ago and now runs
Speaker 1: his own organization helping exoneries get on their feet. Ken
Speaker 1: knows what it's like to deal with the legal system.
Speaker 1: Hell bent unscrewing over people without power, and I've known
Speaker 1: him for years. He's tall, handsome and greets everyone with
Speaker 1: a charming smile.
Speaker 5: Hi, how are you?
Speaker 3: I'm good looking for Victoria?
Speaker 4: Yeah, how you doing?
Speaker 1: Ken is exactly the kind of guy you want around
Speaker 1: to put people at ease.
Speaker 13: If you wouldn't mind, we'd like to have com ice words.
Speaker 1: Victoria is nearing middle age, though she still looks baby faced.
Speaker 1: Her black hairline is showing peaks of gray.
Speaker 9: I'm acting this.
Speaker 6: He'll now to talk about.
Speaker 1: This case off the bat. Victoria says that Barbara Wayley,
Speaker 1: the lead prosecutor, called her and told her not to
Speaker 1: talk about the case.
Speaker 4: Barbara Wayley, I mean, do you feel comfortable?
Speaker 13: Name is the names or somebody we.
Speaker 3: Need to talk to?
Speaker 1: Do We need to get it clear it with them first?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Man, I call them, But Victoria takes out her phone
Speaker 1: and dials first. The person she calls bab O'Neil hey
Speaker 1: b one of the agents with the Kentucky Bureau of
Speaker 1: Investigation who interrogated persons of interest at the Drury in
Speaker 1: in Swites. They want to talk about the cave. Victoria
Speaker 1: talks to O'Neill with familiarity. She's on a first named
Speaker 1: basis with him. She calls Jess because killing from over
Speaker 1: two decades ago. The case like they speak about it often.
Speaker 1: O'Neil advises Victoria against saying anything, but she adds he said,
Speaker 1: once did I leave the rest told us Once Ken
Speaker 1: and Miranda leave the residence, O'Neill will talk to them.
Speaker 1: So they leave and Ken calls him, hello, I speak
Speaker 1: to Bob. O'Neill sounds skeptical but friendly, and he tells
Speaker 1: Ken that Victoria has had to deal with a lot.
Speaker 8: She she has faced a lot of trauma in her life,
Speaker 8: even before that, before that murder took place, which kind
Speaker 8: of the way she was brought up and.
Speaker 1: Step and O'Neill says he still gives Victoria advice now
Speaker 1: and then, is.
Speaker 6: That why you told her not to talk to me today?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 8: I told her, Yeah, she asked me for my opinion.
Speaker 6: That told because you didn't go.
Speaker 1: But they were determined. And a few weeks later, once
Speaker 1: things cooled off, Ten messaged Victory on Facebook. Then he
Speaker 1: called Miranda.
Speaker 13: All right, he just looked at my message. I just
Speaker 13: centered my number.
Speaker 1: I tried to Miranda recorded the conversation and we've edited
Speaker 1: the call for length and clarity.
Speaker 13: Right now, okay, all right, I'm muting again.
Speaker 1: Victoria wastes no time getting to business.
Speaker 6: I was never there.
Speaker 1: I never witnessed anything. Okay, how did they get you
Speaker 1: to say?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 4: They got you to say?
Speaker 3: What happened?
Speaker 11: They told me they'll pick a needle on my arm
Speaker 11: on the elevator at the jury it was called Jurianne
Speaker 11: and Paducah, Kentucky.
Speaker 1: Oh make my statement? Did they specifically tell you what
Speaker 1: to say?
Speaker 10: Is that how your story came about?
Speaker 5: Yes, one officer, multiple officers.
Speaker 11: Multiple from the Sutherland to Lee Wise, the main one.
Speaker 1: Victoria is implicating a prosecutor with the Attorney General's Office
Speaker 1: and agent Lee Wise with the KBI, O'Neill's partner. Okay,
Speaker 1: how do you know qu I don't know him.
Speaker 11: I've never met him a day of my life.
Speaker 4: How do you know his name?
Speaker 1: They gave it to me.
Speaker 4: How do you know what he looked like?
Speaker 1: They showed me? And she doesn't stop there. She tells
Speaker 1: ken that the KBI not only had her lie, they
Speaker 1: helped fabricate evidence.
Speaker 3: There was some mention about a diary.
Speaker 12: Can you give me a little more details about it?
Speaker 6: I wrote it in the same day they came.
Speaker 1: They're referring to the diary Victoria I read from a
Speaker 1: trial where she detailed the aftermath of the murder along
Speaker 1: with the belt. The prosecution used this diary to show
Speaker 1: that Quincy and the others committed the crime, and Victoria
Speaker 1: is saying she made it up that she didn't actually
Speaker 1: write the diary entries. At the time of Jessica's death
Speaker 1: in August of two thousand, then, Victoria confirms she's still
Speaker 1: in touch with law enforcement, specifically bab O'Neil from the KBI.
Speaker 11: He's always giving me money.
Speaker 4: Okay, when you save money?
Speaker 1: What kind of money?
Speaker 4: Are we talking like a couple of hundred bucks just
Speaker 4: to get by, or we're talking like a couple of
Speaker 4: grand to help more than.
Speaker 3: A couple of grand But he's always taken care of me.
Speaker 13: Is it cash?
Speaker 4: Jack?
Speaker 1: No cash?
Speaker 11: Always cash?
Speaker 3: You meet in public places or he comes to you.
Speaker 6: How does that work?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 9: He comes to my house?
Speaker 5: Oh wow?
Speaker 13: What do you think their position is?
Speaker 4: They're trying to keep you quiet? Is that the cansire?
Speaker 11: Yeah, they want me tell the same story, and I
Speaker 11: refuse to tell the same story. And I don't want
Speaker 11: to keep tell her if I can't remember, I can
Speaker 11: remember her lies. You can remember the truth to tell
Speaker 11: a lie, right, I can't remember everything I said, so.
Speaker 1: Yes, Bob O'Neil did not want to speak with me
Speaker 1: for this piece, but he told me he stands by
Speaker 1: the convictions by the tactics used by the KBI, and
Speaker 1: that he denies all of Victoria's claims. Leewise, the other
Speaker 1: agent with the KBI, has not responded to my request
Speaker 1: for an interview. I don't know why Victoria is so
Speaker 1: casually admitting this to Ken, and I have no way
Speaker 1: of telling if she's being truthful, but I do know
Speaker 1: that she likes to spend stories. The one she's told
Speaker 1: about the death of Jessica Curran has changed more times
Speaker 1: than I can count, from the very first time she
Speaker 1: spoke to Mayfield Police in two thousand until now, and
Speaker 1: still law enforcement made Victoria their star witness, and they
Speaker 1: chose to use one of her many stories to put
Speaker 1: Quincy Cross in prison for life and to convict Jeff
Speaker 1: Burton and Victoria's own cousin, tim Or Caldwell. Victoria goes
Speaker 1: on to make many many more accusations and claims to Ken,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to share those because they're damning
Speaker 1: and could all just be made up and the reason
Speaker 1: for Victoria's supposed lies only gets more bizarre.
Speaker 4: I incriminate your cousin, though.
Speaker 11: As you killed my grandma, And I said that to
Speaker 11: everybody that interviewed that.
Speaker 13: They wouldn't put it on record.
Speaker 11: She pushed my grandma down the spears and broke her
Speaker 11: hit and my grandma died.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, So basically you're in her in this case?
Speaker 8: Was your get back?
Speaker 13: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Let me get the story straight.
Speaker 9: My mother died at Lord's Hospital during surgery. Tamar had
Speaker 9: nothing to do with her dying.
Speaker 1: This is Brenda Jackson, Tamra Cultell's mom and Victoria's aunt.
Speaker 9: My mother was getting a stint put in her neck.
Speaker 9: She was a diabetic, and she was getting a stimp
Speaker 9: put it in her heart. Feel her heart stopped meeting
Speaker 9: on the table and that's where my mother died.
Speaker 1: It We got a copy of the death certificate and
Speaker 1: it matches Brenda's story. Her mom died from cardiac arrest
Speaker 1: natural causes, not an accident. At one point, Victoria told
Speaker 1: police her mom was supportive of her going to law
Speaker 1: enforcement with her story, and Brenda thinks it could have
Speaker 1: been because her sister Victoria's mother, Wanda, had some resentment.
Speaker 9: I believe Wanda was jealous of me and my kids.
Speaker 9: I really do, because my children and I we were
Speaker 9: very close, every one of us. Wanda and her kids,
Speaker 9: they were not.
Speaker 1: Brenda lives in Mayfield in a small one story home
Speaker 1: with little tomato plants outside baking in the sun.
Speaker 9: And my son bought me this one and so far
Speaker 9: I'll only got one off of it.
Speaker 1: Huh one? Yeah, how many do you normally got?
Speaker 3: Seven?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 1: Inside? Her home is adorned with porcelain angel figurines and
Speaker 1: family pictures on the wood paneled wall. Those four on
Speaker 1: the wall over there, Brenda points to ones of her
Speaker 1: four kids.
Speaker 9: The top one is Damien, one after him is Tamra,
Speaker 9: and then one after Tama.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of life pictured on those walls. Brenda
Speaker 1: comes from a big family.
Speaker 4: Well there was.
Speaker 9: There was ten of us those kids. There was eight
Speaker 9: girls and two boys. And out of ten of us,
Speaker 9: there's only three of us living now.
Speaker 1: We were all close, except for her younger sister, Wanda,
Speaker 1: Rosie and Victoria's mom.
Speaker 9: Because Wanda was a tattletale everything and no matter what
Speaker 9: we did, she would go and tell Mom or my
Speaker 9: oldest sister and we get spanked for it, we get
Speaker 9: in trouble, or she was still cigarets from Mama and
Speaker 9: bring them to us and we would smoke them and
Speaker 9: she would run in the house and tell on us.
Speaker 1: Brenda says they all teased Wanda, and they had the
Speaker 1: kind of love hate relationship that only siblings do. Still,
Speaker 1: they stayed tight over the years when they were both
Speaker 1: single moms trying to make ends meet. They even moved
Speaker 1: their families in together. Tamra remembers those times fallen.
Speaker 14: Like fifteen kids, yeah, and we all slipping like two beds.
Speaker 14: I mean, it's not close.
Speaker 3: We were.
Speaker 1: Tamra says she grew up inseparable from her cousins, including
Speaker 1: Rosie and Victoria, who were just a few years younger.
Speaker 8: Close.
Speaker 14: Close, yeah, I'm talking about mudpie close. When us eat
Speaker 14: mud pie, make mud pies and go into woods and
Speaker 14: do all that, just play together.
Speaker 1: But as time passed, the cousins and the sisters grew distant.
Speaker 1: While Brenda says she nurtured a close knit family with
Speaker 1: her kids, Wanda couldn't settle down. She left Victoria to
Speaker 1: be raised by her grandma and took Rosie with her
Speaker 1: to help pay the bills. Brenda says wherever she go,
Speaker 1: she would be sailing Rosie, her daughter.
Speaker 7: She said, maybe I'm gonna have to show you. Mama's
Speaker 7: gonna have to ask you this. You have to do threesomes.
Speaker 7: We have to do threesomes.
Speaker 1: Rosie tells me it's true that her mom sold her
Speaker 1: for sex when she was just a little girl. She said,
Speaker 1: he's gonna pay the bills. Victoria has also said she
Speaker 1: suffered a similar fate. I've reached out to Wanda and
Speaker 1: she's not replied. The family drama, the alleged jealousy between
Speaker 1: sisters may be true, but it's impossible for me to
Speaker 1: fact check. And as far as the alleged abuse, Rosie
Speaker 1: actually told the KBI about it during her interview in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. It's the reason I'm even telling
Speaker 1: you about it in the first place. Remember O'Neill told
Speaker 1: Ken Nixon on the phone that Victoria had suffered a
Speaker 1: lot of trauma even before Jessica's death. Well, this trauma
Speaker 1: would be exploited by law enforcement, including the KBI.
Speaker 5: Have one time my home life, did you have Rosen
Speaker 5: growing up? Let's say saw it at twelve, around teen,
Speaker 5: from ten years old to eighteen, and you stepped down
Speaker 5: on your own.
Speaker 1: The agents used those stories to ingratiate themselves with the girls.
Speaker 1: You can hear it in their interview tapes with Rosie.
Speaker 8: Well, the only reason we're ask those questions is kind
Speaker 8: of just to get to know you, Yeah, and finance
Speaker 8: some things.
Speaker 12: She helps me.
Speaker 5: But know what frame of mind or what state of
Speaker 5: you know, edition in your life?
Speaker 1: See Okay, Rosie goes on to tell the KBI agents
Speaker 1: what she told me.
Speaker 5: I thank you for your honesty on that, and I
Speaker 5: know that's something that's very difficult to revalish for people.
Speaker 12: I hope that we have proven you so far that we're.
Speaker 5: Not threatening, okay, yes, And I hope that you feel
Speaker 5: that you can tell us information and that information is
Speaker 5: not going any further than this room.
Speaker 13: Okay.
Speaker 14: Yes.
Speaker 1: Remember what attorney Miranda Hellman said. They tapped into young
Speaker 1: girls who had nothing to lose and a lot to gain,
Speaker 1: who would lie on their own cousin out of fear
Speaker 1: or for money, or simply out of spite. Lies that
Speaker 1: shattered numerous lives and an entire family to lie. Oh,
Speaker 1: my daughter liked that it's best. Did I not see
Speaker 1: the one of them? Because I will be in prison
Speaker 1: that's after the break. Just like Quincy Cross and Jeff Burton,
Speaker 1: Tamra Caldwell has had people fighting in her corner, people
Speaker 1: like Brenda.
Speaker 9: Tamra is actually my best friend. She's my daughter, don't
Speaker 9: get me wrong, but she's also my best friend.
Speaker 1: When Tamor went to prison for Jessica's murder, Brenda quit
Speaker 1: her job as a GED instructor to take care of
Speaker 1: Tamra's three kids. And if I had to do it
Speaker 1: all over again, I would.
Speaker 9: I would because there's no way my grandkids was going
Speaker 9: to be put in anybody's spouse to care.
Speaker 1: No way.
Speaker 9: So I took care of her kids and you know,
Speaker 9: just do what I had to do.
Speaker 1: In a low profile matching armchair next to Brenda sits
Speaker 1: Nobel Faulkner, Brenda's common law husband, and the private investigator
Speaker 1: you heard earlier interviewing Venetia and Rosie.
Speaker 2: As I started investigating this case, you know, I found
Speaker 2: that a lot of things were that they just didn't
Speaker 2: make common sense.
Speaker 3: Hello, ladies, I just got off the phone with Nobel
Speaker 3: Peace Prize, Nobel Faultner.
Speaker 1: Nobel is also close to Daryl Wooman, my trusted source.
Speaker 3: First time I talked to Noble, he told me a
Speaker 3: wonderful story about when he was in the Navy he
Speaker 3: had to jump into the ocean and that there was
Speaker 3: a shark chase in him and he punched the shark
Speaker 3: in the face or something along those lines. But you
Speaker 3: couldn't make him up or write him if you wanted to.
Speaker 1: Noble is in his seventies, tall and lean. He's worked
Speaker 1: in security for over fifty years, and he's been a
Speaker 1: private investigator since the eighties. His body is slowing down
Speaker 1: with age and its many ailments, but he comes alive
Speaker 1: when talking about this case with the exuberance of a preacher.
Speaker 15: See, in this whole big jungle of lies and deceptions,
Speaker 15: there is the truth. But you got to figure it out,
Speaker 15: You got to put it together.
Speaker 1: Brenda actually sought Nobel out years ago before they got together,
Speaker 1: and I had.
Speaker 9: Heard so many people saying how good of an investigator
Speaker 9: he was, and I wanted my daughter to be cleared
Speaker 9: of this murder case. Yes.
Speaker 1: Since then, Nobel has spoken to nearly every key player
Speaker 1: in this case, and all of their stories have led
Speaker 1: Nobel to one conclusion.
Speaker 15: They framed Quincy Crass, they framed Thema Carwell, they framed
Speaker 15: Jeffrey Burton, and they know they did. And that's why
Speaker 15: today you all are standing up in this room try
Speaker 15: to get the on this case when it should have
Speaker 15: been solved twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: And this is where Attorney Miranda Hellman is now wondering
Speaker 1: how this case was even brought to trial in the
Speaker 1: first place.
Speaker 10: When I look at this case, I go no way,
Speaker 10: like this couldn't have happened. I see the holes in
Speaker 10: this case. Why can't a prosecutor who's been practicing for
Speaker 10: thirty years see it? Why didn't the Attorney General see it?
Speaker 10: Why didn't the judge see it?
Speaker 1: And as a journalist myself, I'm wondering, why didn't a
Speaker 1: seasoned reporter like Tom Mangold see it. We have no
Speaker 1: emails between Tom and Susan after twenty twelve. This is
Speaker 1: the last time Tom published a piece featuring Susan in
Speaker 1: his radio documentary for the BBC, and this was also
Speaker 1: around the time Tom sent the email to Susan's friend
Speaker 1: and collaborator saying, Lacy, I'm just beginning to wonder this
Speaker 1: is but a tiny worm of an idea in my
Speaker 1: wine soaked brain that there is a teeny weeny, itsy
Speaker 1: bitsy chance that we've got this whole fucking murder story wrong.
Speaker 1: This seat of doubt was planted after Susan's friend took
Speaker 1: a more active role helping Tom Mangold research for his documentary.
Speaker 1: She went to talk to Victoria, and Victoria told her
Speaker 1: that she made most of her story up, that the
Speaker 1: diary they used at trial was fake, that the KBI
Speaker 1: had threatened her, that she lied on Tamra out of spite.
Speaker 1: Tom knew this. He fretted over her credibility in emails
Speaker 1: to his producer and to law enforcement, but he ended
Speaker 1: up going with Victoria's story, implicating Quincy, Jeff and Tamra
Speaker 1: of horrific crimes without mentioning her incantation, and praising Susan
Speaker 1: as the everyday citizen who helped solve a murder against
Speaker 1: all odds. And that was really it for the duo,
Speaker 1: the veteran journalist and the Kentucky housewife. Then in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: Tom got the email from Susan's sister telling him that
Speaker 1: she died. I've been trying to contact you and regretfully
Speaker 1: inform you of Susan's recent death. It's been such a
Speaker 1: trying time, and that Susan's sister would be taking over
Speaker 1: any negotiation on pending movie deals or documentaries about her.
Speaker 1: I do know she has pending proceedings going on, and
Speaker 1: I'll need to discuss that with the agent or BBC.
Speaker 1: Tom's work on the Jessica current murder is full of
Speaker 1: half truths, yet I'm unable to dismiss all of it
Speaker 1: because Tom didn't only go after people with no recourse
Speaker 1: or real power, like Quincy Cross. He also sought to
Speaker 1: hold the people in charge accountable, pointing the finger at
Speaker 1: the very first officers who led Jessica's case astray.
Speaker 2: When he finally left the Mayfield Police Department. What was
Speaker 2: found in his desk?
Speaker 3: Oh, they found drugs, they found guns, everything that should
Speaker 3: not have been there.
Speaker 1: That's on the next and final episode. Graves County is
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good in association with Signal
Speaker 1: Company Number One. This show is written and produced by
Speaker 1: me Maggie Freeling and senior producer Rebecca Ibarra. Jason Flamm,
Speaker 1: Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Burtis are executive producers. Our editor
Speaker 1: is Martina Abraham's Ilunga. Dania Suleiman is our fact checker.
Speaker 1: Sound design and mixing by Joe Plored, music created by Wrench.
Speaker 1: Our theme song is the Gangstagrass version of The One
Speaker 1: Who's Holding the Star by Leo Schofield and Kevin Herrick.
Speaker 1: Darrel Wooman is investigative producer. Our head of marketing and
Speaker 1: Operations is Jeff Cliburn. Is Ismay Guarderama is our social
Speaker 1: media director, and our social media manager is Sarah Gibbons.
Speaker 1: Andrew Nelson is art director, with additional production help from
Speaker 1: Jackie Paully, Kara Kornhaber and Kathleen Fink. Be sure to
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and threads at Lava
Speaker 1: for Good and follow me at Maggie Freeling. And we
Speaker 1: know there's a lot of names for you to keep
Speaker 1: up with in this series, so for a detailed list
Speaker 1: of characters, please go to our show notes
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