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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. Summer is here, and that

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Speaker 1: means along with pool parties and barbecues, it's time for

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Speaker 1: our staff summer Picks. Every other week, a member of

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Speaker 1: the Here's the Thing staff will choose their favorite episodes

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Speaker 1: from our archives and host the show themselves. First up

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Speaker 1: is our producer Kathleen Russo. Kathleen has been with me

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Speaker 1: from the very beginning of this podcast. She's chosen to

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Speaker 1: share with you two groundbreaking women in entertainment, documentary producer

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Speaker 1: Sheila Nevins and journalist, author, and editor Tina Brown, two

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Speaker 1: extraordinary women in media, brought to you by another that's Kathie.

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Speaker 1: Stay tuned for our other staff picks throughout the summer,

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Speaker 1: and now the legendary Kathleen Russo. Thanks, Alec. I chose

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Speaker 1: Sheila and Tina's interviews, both recorded in two thousand seven team,

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Speaker 1: because they are two women I deeply respect and admire.

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Speaker 1: They are the uber media mavens. I met Sheila in

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Speaker 1: two thousand five at HBO's headquarters in New York City.

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Speaker 1: My husband, the monologist Spalding Gray, died the year before

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Speaker 1: and Sheila contacted me because she was a fan of

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Speaker 1: his work. She really wanted to produce a documentary on

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Speaker 1: his life. We got Steven Soderberg to direct, but sadly

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Speaker 1: it never came to fruition with HBO. We took it elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: But the meetings we had with Sheila were so lively

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Speaker 1: and fun in her Leopard motif apartment. It was a

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Speaker 1: great distraction for me at the time. Let's listen to

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Speaker 1: Alex conversation with Sheila where she's talking about her childhood.

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Speaker 1: If you've been moved by a documentary in the past

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Speaker 1: forty years, there's a chance you have Sheila Nevins to thank.

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Speaker 1: As head of HBO documentary Films since nine she's exerted

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Speaker 1: more influence on the medium than perhaps anyone in its history,

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Speaker 1: so much so that The New York Times says filmmakers

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Speaker 1: quote fret about her outsized power, but also worry about

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Speaker 1: what will happen when she's gone. Sheila Nevins has overseen

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Speaker 1: the production of literally hundreds of documentaries which have won

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Speaker 1: dozens of Oscars, and she's credited or blamed for being

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Speaker 1: one of the creators of reality television through nineties hits

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Speaker 1: like real sex and taxi cab confessions, whether they're shot

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Speaker 1: in a war zone or the back of a taxi.

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Speaker 1: Sheila nevins productions are powerful, brazen, and unflinchingly honest, but

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Speaker 1: when it comes to telling her own story, truth gets trickier.

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Speaker 1: Her new book, You Don't Look Your Age and Other

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Speaker 1: Fairy Tales, blends fiction and reality. It's not a bio,

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Speaker 1: as someone said to me, It's a sly memoir. Who

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Speaker 1: counseled you want how to write the book? Who? Nobody? Nobody? Nobody?

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Speaker 1: You knew instinctively to do this this way. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea what right. I knew when too high, and

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Speaker 1: I knew when to over here, and I knew the

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Speaker 1: names of the characters without ever some of them are Sheila,

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Speaker 1: and some of them are Priscilla or Melissa. And I

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Speaker 1: was going to do that in my book, and I didn't.

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Speaker 1: Maybe nicer than me more honest. I just felt that

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Speaker 1: when I gave the character name, I protected a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, or when I overheard it, I wasn't in it,

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Speaker 1: and then I could write more freely about the truth

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Speaker 1: of it. I don't know that I could have written

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Speaker 1: certain things if it had been me. In her book,

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Speaker 1: Nevin's uses a few characters to paint a portrait of

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Speaker 1: the male dominated world she navigated. Only one of those

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Speaker 1: characters is named Sheila Nevans, but they're all strong, smart

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Speaker 1: women who fight and sleep their way to the top.

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Speaker 1: In a way, the sexual politics of the sixties and

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Speaker 1: seventies is a side show. Sheila nevins true passion is

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Speaker 1: to immerse herself in the lives of her subjects. And

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Speaker 1: like many passions, this one makes you suffer. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think if you're a surgeon, the person is ancestized

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Speaker 1: when you're cutting out their heart, But when you're making

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Speaker 1: a documentary, the person is alive and kicking and they

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Speaker 1: stay with you. Um, you know, I can't explain it.

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Speaker 1: When you go to sleep at night, they they interrupt

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Speaker 1: counting sheep. You know, you see, you see sadness all

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Speaker 1: the time. There's a lot of suffering in this world.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who have no way out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have a way out, We have a

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Speaker 1: way out, we have more options, and without empathy, there's

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Speaker 1: no humanity. And I think docus are the last resort

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Speaker 1: for effective if that's the right use of the word

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Speaker 1: feeling for someone you didn't know. That's a great thing

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Speaker 1: about a document You turn it on, it's in your

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Speaker 1: living room. Okay, you didn't invite it. You thought I'll

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Speaker 1: try it, and then suddenly you're crying for someone you

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Speaker 1: never knew before, and they're not It's not an actor

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Speaker 1: playing apart. It's not something that was scripted. It's another

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Speaker 1: human being trying to live in this country or another country,

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Speaker 1: and it stays with you. It's very difficult. I mean

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Speaker 1: you really, you really agonize. I agonize. I'm not happy.

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Speaker 1: Just walk into that closet full of Emmys and oscars.

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Speaker 1: You have them. Maybe that make you happy that you

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Speaker 1: fall on your foot and down their doorstoppers. For most couple,

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Speaker 1: I don't have them. But pick one if you can,

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Speaker 1: and tell us a bit about one that really really

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Speaker 1: just crushed you. What was the one that was an

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily difficult experience for you to bring that film to

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Speaker 1: the public. Maybe the one about Tourette's even though it

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Speaker 1: was by far not the best documentary on HBO. But

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Speaker 1: because I had been there twenty five years before, I

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Speaker 1: was willing to come out as a parent of a

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Speaker 1: child who had Tourette's and your son, my son David. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that with his permission, I was

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Speaker 1: able to write about it my book. But mainly I

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Speaker 1: was able to make a film for schools so that

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Speaker 1: kids that had turets would not be bullied because it was, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're a fat you were bullied, If

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Speaker 1: you studied, you were bullied. But if you had Tourette's,

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Speaker 1: nobody knew what you had. They thought you were dopey.

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Speaker 1: They push you, they'd imitate you. This one was tough

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Speaker 1: because I had to go to my bosses and say,

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Speaker 1: I want to make this film about Tourette's doesn't affect everybody.

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Speaker 1: I want to do it from my kid and this

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Speaker 1: is a big place called HBO, And they said, do it.

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Speaker 1: You've earned it, And I did it. Now for people

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Speaker 1: who don't understand Tourette's beyond you know, the outbursts, the

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Speaker 1: vocal outbursts and so forth, when did you when do

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Speaker 1: you first become aware of a child having that? At

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Speaker 1: what ages it exhibit itself? Well, the vocal outbursts are

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Speaker 1: less than five percent. So the fact that that's called

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Speaker 1: copper alien and um, that means that you yell four

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Speaker 1: letter words. Can I say them on this show? I

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Speaker 1: think our answers, well, if you're here, they know, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So the kid who yelled funck ship this, fuck your fuck,

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Speaker 1: you ask your motherfuck. That is less than five percent,

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Speaker 1: but the media has it's the most. It first of all,

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Speaker 1: gave the media chance to use the words and bleep

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Speaker 1: them and make it exciting. And certainly it was unfair

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Speaker 1: to the kids to amy, but people like Robin Williams.

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Speaker 1: There's also a very interesting part of Tourette's which is

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Speaker 1: called Ekilalia had that yes, where imitative behavior is part

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Speaker 1: of the affliction. So in other words, you go to

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Speaker 1: a movie, you come back. The kid does the whole

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Speaker 1: almost the whole movie, and does the actual sounds of

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Speaker 1: the voices of the different people. But the film is difficult,

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Speaker 1: fe painful. It was very painful because, for one, I

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Speaker 1: had to tell David we were going to do it too. Um.

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Speaker 1: He had to be willing to come out as a

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Speaker 1: kid who had tourette. We both agreed that it was

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Speaker 1: a necessary film. It wasn't great, but it was useful.

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Speaker 1: You know that there are different kinds of docums. What

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Speaker 1: about a filmmaker meaning you have people coming in. They all,

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Speaker 1: you know, many of them want something from you. They

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Speaker 1: want you to help. But I cast I cast the

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Speaker 1: films the way you would cast a movie, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I try to find filmmakers who have a passion

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Speaker 1: for a subject, and then I try to put them

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Speaker 1: together with that subject. So if it's me and maximum

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Speaker 1: culpa about abuses, let's say in the Catholic church, I'll

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Speaker 1: find someone who is a renegade Catholic to be able

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Speaker 1: to go after it both with the passion of being

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Speaker 1: a kid who's brought up that way and at the

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Speaker 1: same time someone who's able to look at it with

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Speaker 1: with the right amount of subjective involvement. And in that

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Speaker 1: case it turned out to be Alex Gibney. But it's

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Speaker 1: very different. I mean, Alexander Pelosi is doing a film

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Speaker 1: for us. Now on everybody says, let's do an anti

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Speaker 1: Trump film. Okay, I must get five pictures a day

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Speaker 1: about let's do this, Let's do who voted, Let's do

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Speaker 1: the Democrats who voted, Let's do the women the college graduated.

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Speaker 1: Every day, there's something. And so it occurred to us

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Speaker 1: that maybe what we should do is go back to

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Speaker 1: the Founding Fathers, maybe we should go back to the

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Speaker 1: dream of what democracy was. And so this film is

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Speaker 1: about the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence in the Bill

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Speaker 1: of Rights. And I watched it last night, pretty late,

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Speaker 1: and I found myself getting weepy over the dream, you know,

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Speaker 1: not laughing at it, but weepy over the original beauty

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Speaker 1: of it, the beauty of it, the beauty of being

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Speaker 1: free from the king. And in the descriptions of breaking

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Speaker 1: away from the king, it was as if it was

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Speaker 1: on you know, CNN that night, the king had just

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Speaker 1: transmigrated into somebody else, and it was terrifying and also

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Speaker 1: illuminating about the prophetic vision of the Founding Fathers. It's

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Speaker 1: really extraordinarily interesting and at the same time, you know, complex,

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Speaker 1: but you know, this whole country was founded on getting

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Speaker 1: away from from a dictatorship. Let me ask you this,

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Speaker 1: which is maybe some kind of a stereo track you

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Speaker 1: can um you can try to paint a picture from

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Speaker 1: me what the what the company was like when you started,

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Speaker 1: because when I I always joke with people that HBO.

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Speaker 1: When I was first living in New York in the

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Speaker 1: early eighties, HBO would come on and they had that

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Speaker 1: theme song that sounds like an Israeli FA play the

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Speaker 1: same like MTV and they played Billy Idol and Flock

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Speaker 1: of Seagulls all day long. And so in that time,

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Speaker 1: how has it changed and how was it changed for

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Speaker 1: you as a woman in the business since in your time.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much has changed, I really argue,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I don't really think so. I

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Speaker 1: think I was an anomaly. So I was not a

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Speaker 1: threat because who else was going to work twenty hours

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Speaker 1: a day, have a sick kid, take all the jokes,

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Speaker 1: do the whole thing. I've had nine bosses in thirty

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Speaker 1: five years. It's pretty hard because each one was a

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Speaker 1: magic slate, so anything you've done before was unknown or

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Speaker 1: not necessarily valid to them because they had to re

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Speaker 1: establish themselves. So it was listen, I'm not complaining. I've

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Speaker 1: had the greatest job in the world, but I was

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Speaker 1: an anomaly. Who what woman wanted to work twenty hours

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Speaker 1: a day? Who wanted to do docues? Anyway? It was

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Speaker 1: an eight hour services So it was tough for you

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Speaker 1: as a woman. What was hard not getting pinched. That's

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Speaker 1: the great advantage to getting older. You're there from the

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Speaker 1: next hanky panky. So it's nick up now, but I

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Speaker 1: don't do with that in the early days. Maybe, okay,

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Speaker 1: I want to keep my job, okay, but not even yes.

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Speaker 1: Of course I had to do deal with that. Of

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Speaker 1: course I did, and I dealt with it readily and

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Speaker 1: aggressively and happily because I didn't know any better. And

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Speaker 1: I I mean, I've discussed this with Gloria Steinham. It

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Speaker 1: was the only thing I knew. I wanted that job badly.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to make something of it. And if it required,

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Speaker 1: you know, a hand on a knee or whatever else,

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Speaker 1: you overlooked. I looked, but then I turned away. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say I overlooked. I felt it deep down, but

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Speaker 1: I you weren't compromised in some find some extreme way.

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Speaker 1: People just took it was the rules of the game.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was the rules of the game. Why

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Speaker 1: would I know it was like shooting a gun. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't like it, but I need to learn how

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Speaker 1: I knew that was the way I did what I

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Speaker 1: had to do. You didn't want me to not get

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Speaker 1: this job, did you. I'm glad that you were as

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Speaker 1: open minded as you were to do better. Documentary happily, slutty,

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Speaker 1: happily so because I didn't know anything else. The job

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Speaker 1: was worth more than my sexual identity. There were no

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Speaker 1: human resources to protect me. There was nothing, and I

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Speaker 1: was pretty You had no exactly, you had no protector, no,

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Speaker 1: no protector, And I wanted to do it and I

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Speaker 1: didn't want them to give it away. Yeah. I just

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Speaker 1: had just gotten married. Yeah at the time, would you

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Speaker 1: go home and like, did your husband know that you

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Speaker 1: were enduring all this groping? But no, because I could

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Speaker 1: brush it off. You know, I've done a lot of

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Speaker 1: shows with hookers, and I've done a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: at cat House in Las Vegas. Were the men being

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Speaker 1: taken advantage of over the women? Have you ever seen

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Speaker 1: our Cathouse show? They bought a hundred books the cathouse,

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Speaker 1: you see, I don't have anyone else probably giving it

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Speaker 1: out now, the book. When you make films and you

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Speaker 1: get involved, you're giving notes, you're telling them. I'm watching

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Speaker 1: the clip of you from Alexander's Thing where you're saying

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Speaker 1: I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored. And what you were

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Speaker 1: looking for in a film, what you're expecting of a

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Speaker 1: filmmaker of a film. Did you expect the same of

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Speaker 1: yourself when you wrote this book? You did? Okay? Talk

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Speaker 1: about that? Why? Because, in a strange way, I wrote

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Speaker 1: the book in a very selfish way, and when I'm

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Speaker 1: in an editing room, I don't think I'm particularly selfish.

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Speaker 1: I wrote it because I didn't want to be the

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Speaker 1: legend of documentaries. I didn't want to be a docut diva.

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Speaker 1: What did you want to be? I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a person like everybody? Are you in this book? I

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Speaker 1: think so? Would you say that there's some writing here

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Speaker 1: that's the equivalent of the plastic surgery of writing without questions?

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of plastic surgery in this lot. There's enough.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you said I looked good, so it must

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Speaker 1: be enough. And if the book sells, good for you.

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Speaker 1: If if the book doesn't real as well as you look.

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Speaker 1: So the plastic surgery in the writing is part of it,

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Speaker 1: That's only part of it. Why does everybody pick up

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Speaker 1: the plastic surgery? I remember the lawyer from um McMillan

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Speaker 1: asking me if there was someone named Melissa. Melissa van

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Speaker 1: Holden boss sleeps with her boss. It's the sixties and

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Speaker 1: she can't get ahead any other way? And um he called,

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Speaker 1: and he said, do you know anyone named Melissa? And

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Speaker 1: Mr Penny Broth is the name of the boss? Now?

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Speaker 1: Who is named Mr Penny Broth? Let's be real, he said,

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Speaker 1: is but it just came. The name came, Um, Mr

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Speaker 1: Penny Broth, you know, fuck Melissa, and Melissa got a

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Speaker 1: promotion and it was three. It wasn't her fault and

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Speaker 1: that's the way that was. Were the rules of the game? Right? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean they drove me crazy. Is there anyone named Melissa?

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Speaker 1: At HBO? I said, I'm sure there are a number

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Speaker 1: of women named Melissa here? Is there? Mr Pennybroth? Have

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Speaker 1: you ever worked for Mr Penny Broth? I said, nobody

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Speaker 1: would have the name Mr Pennybroth. They said, you never know?

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Speaker 1: So then I looked in the you know, I typed

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Speaker 1: it into my iPad. I couldn't find a Penny Broth similar.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know where those names from. So is

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Speaker 1: it really am I hiding? If there's nobody by that name,

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Speaker 1: then who is it? There must be me? Right, I

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer, but I mean I don't still

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Speaker 1: don't know. It might not be the bravest riding in

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Speaker 1: the world. But it's very interesting. I never would say

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Speaker 1: I was grave. I'm honest. It's about adultery. It's also

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Speaker 1: about I don't care about rolling in and out of love.

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Speaker 1: It's also about anti Semitism. It's also about your heart

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Speaker 1: being broken. Can we pick let's stop there. Can we

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Speaker 1: pick one topic? That are you talking about? Adultery? Who's adultery?

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Speaker 1: Certainly not my own? Okay, not your own? How do

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Speaker 1: I know those eyes of yours? We've got those wonderful

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Speaker 1: eyes and they're in the morning. They don't look I

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Speaker 1: don't want to know what they're looking at the more,

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Speaker 1: that's not my business? Is that my business? You've been

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Speaker 1: happily married to Sydney all these years, of course, And

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Speaker 1: did you ever describe what it's like for you to

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Speaker 1: fall in love? Because you're pretty tough broad, You're pretty

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Speaker 1: no nons sense woman, you're tough. We would it like

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Speaker 1: to pall in love? Love redefines itself as you get older,

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Speaker 1: when you fell in love with him? What did you

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Speaker 1: fall in love with? Sydney? Or my heartbreak? In my

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Speaker 1: book both take sax to Sydney first. No, my heartbreak first,

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Speaker 1: My heartbreak? This is my show. It's my show now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, where would you be without me sitting here?

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Speaker 1: You'll be talking to yourself. Heartbreak happens once, I believe

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Speaker 1: real heartbreak. What happened? You don't repair describe the situation.

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Speaker 1: We'll do what you do in your book. The woman

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Speaker 1: in the third person meets who. Sometimes I'm myself, sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm really quite crazy though. It's a young

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Speaker 1: girl who goes to the eld drama school. She falls

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Speaker 1: in love with a guy. She goes home to his

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Speaker 1: very fancy house in Connecticut with initials on the thing

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Speaker 1: and Gilbert Stewart pictures and all that. He goes to Harvard.

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Speaker 1: They meet at a law school moot court thing, and um,

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Speaker 1: the mother says to her, aren't there any interesting Jewish

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Speaker 1: men in the law school? And you never see him again?

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Speaker 1: That's heartbreak, that's heartbreak. You liked him, care about him,

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Speaker 1: I loved him? How long were you with him? Semester

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Speaker 1: a year of you know, sort of make believe in

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Speaker 1: thinking that life made sense. Semesters a big chapter of

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Speaker 1: your life when you're young, big chapter of your life,

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Speaker 1: especially when you've never really been in love before. You

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Speaker 1: don't get over that. You don't get over that hurt.

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Speaker 1: It takes a long, long, long What did you fall

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Speaker 1: in love with? About Sydney? Comfort? Kindness and good partner

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Speaker 1: good partner friendship intelligence. But I'm not sure he could

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Speaker 1: have ever broken my heart. I think you break your

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Speaker 1: heart one time, do you. I think if you're someone

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Speaker 1: who becomes other people, then you become capable of other

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Speaker 1: stes of a rocket and saying, I'm pretty the same,

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Speaker 1: much the same, So you mean you change. I'm the

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Speaker 1: same person I was fifty years ago. I'm just old,

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Speaker 1: coming up. Sheila Nevans talks about being raised by a communist.

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Speaker 1: Sheila Nevins has nurtured many documentary filmmakers. Joe Burlinger, creator

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Speaker 1: of HBO's Paradise Lost, is one of them. His films

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Speaker 1: tell a shocking story of justice denied three boys in

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Speaker 1: the Bible Belt wrongfully convicted of ritual sexual abuse and murder.

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Speaker 1: Burlinger said the story haunted him. You know, my first

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Speaker 1: kid was born while we were editing this film, and

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Speaker 1: I would be sitting, you know, at the editing bay,

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Speaker 1: looking at the most horrific autopsy photos and crime scene footage.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would go home at night after having

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Speaker 1: these images like emblazoned on your brain, and I would

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Speaker 1: drop the you know, the door of the crib and

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Speaker 1: pick up my new infant who has just arrived a

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Speaker 1: few months ago. And every hallmark that my child would

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Speaker 1: go through, you know, kindergart in middle school, high school,

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Speaker 1: I think, my god, these guys are still rotting in prison.

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Speaker 1: I just felt we had a you know, we had

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Speaker 1: a moral obligation to keep telling the story. Listened to

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Speaker 1: the full conversation and here's the thing, Dot Org. I'm

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: Sheila and Evans. Nearly four decades stewardship of HBO documentaries

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Speaker 1: has helped usher in a golden age for the form.

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Speaker 1: But when she started, the very word documentary could doom

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Speaker 1: a project to obscurity. I think that docums have become hot.

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Speaker 1: When I began in this business, we didn't even want

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Speaker 1: to use the word documentary. When we did promos for films,

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Speaker 1: we would call them docutainment. We invented this lutic word

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Speaker 1: because we're afraid that if we said documentary, people would

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Speaker 1: feel that it was for the lead and that it

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Speaker 1: was about politics, and that it was not going to

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Speaker 1: be about human stories, and so we we hid behind

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Speaker 1: this word docuertainment. And then slowly but surely it took

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Speaker 1: a good years, we began to say, well, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: not such a dirty word, and reality programming sort of said,

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Speaker 1: real people can be interesting in a trivial way. Now,

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Speaker 1: how do we take that real people think and bring

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Speaker 1: it back to real stories that have heart and soul.

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Speaker 1: So then somehow it went docutainment, reality TV. Yea documentary,

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Speaker 1: go for it, say that real people, people without celebrity,

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Speaker 1: people who are trying to survive in a complicated world,

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Speaker 1: and say it in their own words and not either

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Speaker 1: have to have scripted or apologize for it, but let

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Speaker 1: it go for itself. So if a woman would be

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Speaker 1: living on a minimum wage, for instance, um, we would

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Speaker 1: almost cast that woman to be someone who could tell

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Speaker 1: that story. I got three kids, I'm working in a

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Speaker 1: nursing home. I'm making seven dollars an hour. I gotta

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Speaker 1: have three jobs. My husband is on drugs, he's left me.

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Speaker 1: We we felt we could tell those stories with real people.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have to use narrative. I'll due respect, but

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Speaker 1: we could we could elevate the common man's story and

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Speaker 1: use the word documentary, and I think they became somewhat

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Speaker 1: precious and difficult um and and had parody at festivals.

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Speaker 1: Began to have parody at festivals with narrative. So suddenly

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Speaker 1: Toronto would have a whole section on documentary. Sundance was

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Speaker 1: actually the first. But Docus at that time were hot docs.

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Speaker 1: They had their own festivals. They were not part of

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Speaker 1: festivals that had actors and famous people, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they were sort of an offshoot. I think now docums

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Speaker 1: have gotten parody. But is it safe to say, I'd

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Speaker 1: love to hear your viewpoint about this that, and not

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Speaker 1: that it's a seller's market now, But is it tougher

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Speaker 1: for you to find what you want? It's so petitive, horrifying.

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Speaker 1: Your job is harder than it was. Job is much

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Speaker 1: harder because first of all, a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: monopoly money and I'm still playing with real cash. So

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Speaker 1: I really can't play the well. Netflix has tons of

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Speaker 1: dollars and they don't. No, not for docues. No. Why

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Speaker 1: why is that the company is the company's mission or

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Speaker 1: what happened? I can't speak for the company. A peon.

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Speaker 1: I would say that it's not a high priority stars

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Speaker 1: rule and series still feel themselves as almost like a studio.

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Speaker 1: I think so. I think the development of a series

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Speaker 1: is where the money's at. It's where the sales are

404
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Speaker 1: at one shot, they're chasing that. That's where they're there.

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Speaker 1: They're not there. If you took docues off HBO, I

406
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Speaker 1: think they have a million places to go. Ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: if you took docues off HBO, you wouldn't have a

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Speaker 1: place to find them. So it's tough. It's really tough.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about your childhood and how you grew up.

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Speaker 1: Movie or No. I was allowed to watch television. No, no, no.

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Speaker 1: My mother was a Communist. She had gone to school

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Speaker 1: with Ethel Rosenberg. And so when Ethel Rosenberg was assassinated

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Speaker 1: or whatever the word is, in the electric chair, I

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Speaker 1: thought any minute they were coming to take my mother.

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Speaker 1: My best friend was Billy and his father was the

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Speaker 1: editor of the Daily Worker. And I came home one day,

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Speaker 1: Second Avenue in sixth Street. My father was a postman

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Speaker 1: on the lower side. Yeah, I'm a poor girl. See

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Speaker 1: that's why I wrote the book. Because everybody thought I

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Speaker 1: went to Barnard. I went to Yale. I went to

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Speaker 1: performing Arts. Ritzi Titsy Titsy TITSI Doorman. You clawed your

422
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: way to the top the Jewish Eve Harrington. Wow, No,

423
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: I was very good. I didn't call my way. I

424
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 1: was fucking good. And I'm still. I'm really smart, and

425
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: I'm smart about what people might watch, and I'm smart

426
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: about self criticism, and I'm happy to be wrong as

427
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 1: long as I'm right. So how did you end up

428
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: in this business? What did your father do for a living?

429
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: My father a postman in a bookie. Why did you

430
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: end up in this business because you went to drama school? No,

431
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: but I made you directing it. Yeah, because I knew

432
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: I was not a good actress. I thought that I

433
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: would and I was a terrible to answer. I thought

434
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: that I would have been good at storytelling and knowing

435
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: when it was wrong and when it was right. I

436
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: had a great teacher at Yale who we also had

437
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: to take acting classes, and she said to me, you

438
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: had the perfect director because you're always watching. And I thought,

439
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: that's true. I'm always I'm always looking in, I'm always watching.

440
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: Taxicab Confessions, which we did, was an example of a

441
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 1: show that came from observations like I found that when

442
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: I was in a taxi, I knew I never see

443
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: that person again. I could tell them things I wouldn't

444
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 1: tell anybody else. I thought, if I'm doing this, other

445
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: people can be doing this. Why don't we do taxicab

446
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: confessions and take the car out at five and go

447
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: through the night. And then we did it. And they

448
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: were great stories, great secret stories that people tell and

449
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: we would ask them to sign a release, and very

450
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 1: often they didn't. Some of the best stories are hidden

451
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 1: in the lock and key. Now here's the last thing

452
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: I want to say to you. You went to Barnard

453
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: and you went to Yale, and you've had this great

454
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: career and you've won all the awards and your name

455
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: is synonymous with the highest level of documentary filmmaking them

456
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: the last you deliver my memorial service. If I'm available,

457
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: you have to get paid. Now. I appreciate your career. No,

458
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: that's why you're here. Okay, But but last, but at least,

459
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: there's something about you. There's this woman thing about you.

460
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: You go when you make this effort in the the

461
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: beautification and the kind of corrections and all this other stuff,

462
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: and you look phenomenal, by the way, but I just

463
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: want to say, there's a thing about you. You know,

464
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: you bathe in this world of the stark and the wheel,

465
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: but there's a part of me that I think you

466
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: want to be in love again. I see you in

467
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: a bathrobe on a terrace in Paris and you're just

468
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: having the longest kiss in the world. Is that what

469
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: you want? Is you do want to fall already that

470
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: I don't really want to be in a bathrobe on

471
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: a terrorist and it took good to get out my psychiaty.

472
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: You don't know you don't want to be in love

473
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: again and have a passion. No romance, No, you don't.

474
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: I want to make the best documentary in the world.

475
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: That's it. That's it, that's it, that's all I want.

476
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: I just offered you romance bath you'd rather I want

477
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: to make a document wins a prize. We're going to

478
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: stop right there, because that's why you're the greatest. I

479
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: don't want that going to make I want Alexandre's docu

480
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: to win awards. I wanted to make people know about

481
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: the beginning of the founding fathers and the dream of

482
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: the country. That's what I want to do. I mean,

483
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: I'm not square and stupid and idealistic more than anything,

484
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: More than anything, What do I want? What do you want? Us?

485
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: To make great movies? Yeah? I think that's true. It

486
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: makes me almost want to cry when you say that.

487
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: Now let's turn to Alex conversation with Tina Brown. After

488
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: Tina came in for the Standard You, I approached her

489
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: about doing her own podcast. She loved the idea, and

490
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: one thing led to another. Our first meeting was at

491
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: her infamous town house in New York City, and I

492
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: was let in and waited for Tina in the dining room.

493
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: In the distance, I could see her husband, Sir Harold Evans,

494
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: working in his office, and then I began to look

495
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: at all the photographs in the wall of Tina with

496
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: people I had only read about. We got a deal

497
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: with Wondering to produce a podcast for the year and

498
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: called it TB D with Tina Brown. I learned so

499
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: much from working with Tina. She was tough, but she

500
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: was by far the best editor I've ever worked with,

501
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: not to mention her interviewing skills. We only worked on

502
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: TBD for a year, but it was truly an honor

503
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: to produce a podcast with this trailblazer. Crime and unemployment

504
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: were still high, but it was morning in corporate America.

505
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: The Dow was up by a third in six months,

506
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: and the og eighties had begun. Among the many who

507
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: landed in New York to make their fortune that year

508
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: was a hot shot magazine editor from London who would

509
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: chronicle and then shape that decade like no other. Tina

510
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: Brown was twenty nine years old. Her story became inseparable

511
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: from that of her creation, a relaunched nineteen twenties glossy

512
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: that came to define the Reagan era Vanity Fair. Brown

513
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: was a decisive boss, an instinctive editor, and a pioneer

514
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: of layout. But that's only a part of what secured

515
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: her place on top of New York society. She brought

516
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: to her dinner parties and outsider's power of social observation

517
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: and a wit so sharp you didn't know you were

518
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: bleeding until you were halfway home. But Tina Brown can

519
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: tell her own story. She did, in fact, in real time.

520
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: Her new book, Vanity Fair Diaries, as a series of

521
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: diary entries, starting the day she first landed in New

522
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: York for Vanity Fair. Wednesday made the first Thursday, January tenth,

523
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: Monday Wednesday of Sunday, April tenth three. I am here

524
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: in NYC at last, brimming with fear and insecurity, getting

525
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: in late last night on British airways, I suddenly felt

526
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: the enormousness of New York City. And she made it

527
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: to the big leagues because four years earlier, barely out

528
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: of Oxford, Tina Brown landed the editorship of a languishing

529
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: old magazine called Tatler after everyone else turned down the job.

530
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: And I turned it into this very buzzy little glossy

531
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: and signed new House, who was then the chairman of

532
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: connyn Ass. Then after two years and me editing it

533
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: three years, he came in and he bought it for Connynas.

534
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: So that's how I joined conn asked, was that I

535
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,959
Speaker 1: was really brought into the family of Connynas with Tatler

536
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: and you over there off when I was in London,

537
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: And how long did you do that under his ownership? Well?

538
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: I left actually after about a year because the Tatler

539
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: had been the kind of scrappy little startup, and when

540
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: Connynas bought it, I missed the insurgent nature of the public.

541
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: You know. I I loved having my little team of insurgents,

542
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: these young turks that I had out of college. And

543
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: then when Connie Nas brought it, I felt it had

544
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: become a sort of stately thing, and I just, you know,

545
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: I love being in the kind of the rebel band,

546
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: you know, so I left. Actually, people don't normally put

547
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: you in the rebel band. Well, I know, some pretty

548
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: ivory towers, right, but rebel band is where I began,

549
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: and I love that. And I had a very brilliant

550
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: young group who all went on to do great things

551
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: of Connas. So I left. And then as I left,

552
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: I kept hearing that Connin Asked had launched this new

553
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: magazine in America, Vanity Fair, that this was they were

554
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: bringing back this icon, this old magazine of the twenties

555
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: and thirties that hadn't had all these amazing you know,

556
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: people like Claire booth Loosen and Dorothy Parker and so

557
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: on writing for it. And I was very attracted to

558
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: that because I'm a sort of magazine romantic. So I

559
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: never thought I would get to edit it, but I

560
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: you know, we heard it like the music in the

561
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: other room. Then Conyan has launched Fanity Fair in eight three,

562
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: and it was a complete debarkle, you know, the first

563
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: two arts. But it was one of those things where

564
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: the sort of the pre hype sort of almost killed

565
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: the magazine. It was a complete dissonance between the magazine

566
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: they were advertising and hyping and the magazine they put out.

567
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: They what was the chasm between the two. The chasm

568
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: between the two was that they said, great magazine comes

569
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: back from the dead, legendary magazine. You'll never see anything

570
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: more exciting, more glamorous, more important than this magazine. And

571
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: then they had a very bookish, very you know, a nerdy,

572
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: smart guy from the New York Times who'd never been

573
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: a magazine editor. His name was Richard Locke, and you know,

574
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: on paper he was a good hire. He was a

575
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: brainy guy, but he never done a magazine. And magazines

576
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: it's it's all about the chemistry of the words and

577
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: the pictures and the headlines and the you know, and

578
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: the captions and all the things that make a magazine dance.

579
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: He didn't know how to do that. So it was

580
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: a very boring magazine. It after him, and then they

581
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: had they fired him and brought on Leo Lerman, who

582
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: was the former editor of features editor Vogue He was

583
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: a kind of seventy five year old, you know, culture

584
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: maven old, kind of gossipy old guy who you know

585
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: who was the sort of the darling of the ladies

586
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: who lunch completely antique, had absolutely no concept of how

587
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: to do this thing at all. He then flamed out,

588
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: and when he was there, I was asked by by

589
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: Connyan asked to come in and sort of consult because

590
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: I then left out and they thought, all of this

591
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: young turk who you know who then split, let's bring

592
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: her into American contyn asked to see whether she can

593
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: help old Leo kind of get the thing right. And

594
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: they paid you to consult. They paid me to consult,

595
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: and I spent three months there and I realized that

596
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: Leah was never going to get this right, that it

597
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: was a complete fiasco. He was fiercely jealous of me

598
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: anyway and didn't want me anywhere near it. And I realized, Hey,

599
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: I could do this thing. Why am I being so timid?

600
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: Wanted to? I then really wanted to. Yes, I decided

601
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: I had made a mistake not sort of pitching myself

602
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: to do it, that I should have myself to do it.

603
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: I kind of felt what I had whipped out by

604
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: not saying to them at the beginning, I'd love to

605
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: do this. And from the time you finished a tattlet

606
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: and then your consultancy less, how long before you take

607
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: over Vanity Third It was about nine months, not even

608
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: not even a year, and yeah, yeah, and I came back.

609
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: So my Vanity Fair diaries really sort of begin at

610
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: that time because I came in as a consultant in

611
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: in the summer of eighty three with Leo, and the

612
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: diaries sort of showed the rising realization that I should

613
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: be the editor of this magazine. This magazine and I

614
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: were made to make musing together. I left New York,

615
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: went back to London, and they finally and brought me

616
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: back as editor. In so to the extent that you

617
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: can say, I mean all people really have in the

618
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: popular culture is um devil wears product and all these

619
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: very very kind of theatrical representations of the world of publishing.

620
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: Is it really that one person has to dominate and

621
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: their will has to call the day you had to

622
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: sit there with a group of people say it's got

623
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: to be this and this, that you took their advice,

624
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: what did you do? I mean, a great editor isn't

625
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: an autocrat. I mean, you have to have a vision

626
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: in the same way the director has to have a

627
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: vision of a movie, and you have to have a

628
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: world view. Two. I mean, my my feeling was that

629
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. I knew what I wanted to do with

630
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. I wanted to combine the elegance and glamor

631
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: of the magazine, of the famous magazine of the twenties

632
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: and thirties, with some of that narrative grizzle of journalism

633
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: that had then become the sort of defining feature of

634
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: the great magazines of then the seventies and eighties, like

635
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, like New York Magazine. So I wanted to

636
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: modernize that formula, if you like, and then bring a

637
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: kind of real modern spin. And the modern spin I

638
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: brought because this was we were in the Reagan era, right,

639
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: we just roll Reagan was on a glide path to

640
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: re election. I came in as a London outsider who

641
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: didn't know really much about America, and I was just

642
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: plunged into this world of Reagan's America, which was this

643
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: kind of black tie, wildly consumed imorish. You know, Bob,

644
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: he was on the magazine. It was just I mean,

645
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: it boggles my mind when I when I read the

646
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: diaries now and when I started to compile them, how

647
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 1: much we went out. I mean every night. It was

648
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: like I had red nails and the long dress, and

649
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: it was like the black tie dinners and New orven

650
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: Higher New York. You know, Nancy Reagan and her Walkers,

651
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: and Jerry Zipkin was this socialite with a face like

652
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: a B Day That's exactly. You got those names and

653
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: they were out there, you know, and it was enormous

654
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: fund to cover it. And then in the meantime in

655
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: then in l A there was all this kind of

656
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: the rise of the spellings, you know, and Candy Spelling

657
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: and the big houses and the monster mansions and the

658
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: whole of this thing. So it was a wonderful world

659
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: to cover. I sort of felt that our mission was

660
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: to dramatize it, make it saying in our pages. And

661
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: I had my very first hire as a writer actually

662
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: was Dominant Done and Dominic Dunne. I first met when

663
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: I came as a consultant in the summer at the

664
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: dinner party of Marie Brenner, who was a vanity affair,

665
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: and he was this out of work film producer, and

666
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: he was next to me, and he was so great,

667
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: and he was so entertaining and dinner and then he

668
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: told me this horrendous story that his daughter had been

669
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: murdered and he was on his way out to l

670
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: A to the trial of his daughter's murderer. And I said,

671
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,919
Speaker 1: why don't you keep a diary? Being a great darist myself,

672
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: I said, you know, keep a diary. Maybe you would

673
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: make it into something to read, and I'd love to

674
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: publish it. So he his eyes lit up, and off

675
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: he went. And the piece that he brought back, which

676
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: was published in the magazine, was an absolutely epic piece

677
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 1: of sort of narrative personal journalism. So my very first

678
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: high when I came back, and as editor at eighty four,

679
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: I said to Nick, you know, I want you to

680
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 1: be my first higher. I want to get a chowd

681
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: of writers who can define the magazine. And that's, of

682
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: course what he helped to do. Now, for those who

683
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: don't know this, you kept copious diary entries. What is

684
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: it about you that you're such a dead a can

685
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: of diarist. I've tried that myself. I've got boxes when

686
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: have books in them, and notebooks, and some of them

687
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: have those little diary like looks them and you open

688
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: and doesn't mean maybe like a week's worth of entries.

689
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: And then Scotte, Well, I think I'm a compulsive reporter. Actually,

690
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: I mean I have what I think of as observation greed. Right,

691
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: most of the time I'm propelled to go out, not

692
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: because I actually want to go out, but I think

693
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: I got to see that, you know, I need to

694
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: see that. Curious, I'm really curious, and I have a

695
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: great desire to report on on on the action, if

696
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: you like. So I I've always done that. I've always

697
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: because I was alone. My husband at that time, Harry Evans,

698
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: was actually in Washington working. It was a predigital era.

699
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: So I would come back from these blacks I dinners

700
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: and I would be on my own. I hadn't got

701
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: kids at that moment, and I sat down and just

702
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: it was like wanting to talk to a friend. And

703
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: so it was literally sort of dear diary almost you

704
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: know that, I just gushed it all that. Plus I

705
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: was from London and so I it was all new

706
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: to me. Everything about this place was wild. I had

707
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: never seen such excess, such money as such you know,

708
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: I was fascinating both in a sense so that it

709
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: was a little decadent. My dad was a movie producer,

710
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: he was there. My mom was Lawrence Olivier's assistant. No,

711
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: she was Are you kidding me? Oh my god, I'd

712
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: love to be Lawrence. How long was what a peasant? Rogan?

713
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: Peasant slave? Am? I? She was about five years and

714
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: then she married my my dad when she was a

715
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: young woman. She was when she married when he was

716
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: assistant when she was young and she then met my

717
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: father at Pinewood Studios and and they got married, and

718
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: then she became you know, he could have been your dad,

719
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: as she played her card smartly. Actually more In o'harror

720
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 1: could have been my mother, because my father married more

721
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: In o'harror first. Yes, And it's very funny when when

722
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: I found about ten years ago that More after my

723
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: father just died and I was feeling particularly connected to him,

724
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: I saw that Morgan her Horror was signing books, uh

725
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: at some bookstore or wasn't it was the opening it

726
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: was it was her movie, the famous Christmas movie right

727
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: which I I Miracle onto Street, Miracle on thirty fourth Street.

728
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 1: So she was there at the movie house. So I

729
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: said to my little girl, you know, then we're going

730
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: to go and see more in O'Hara because she was

731
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: married to Grandpa, and you know, I've never met her,

732
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 1: and I really wanted to produce myself. So I went

733
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: to this thing and there was a big line. I

734
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: interested myself was a miss O'Hara. I'm George Brown's daughter,

735
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: and I thought she was going to say, how wonderful

736
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 1: to see you, I mean George, and she turned around

737
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 1: and she said to me that man had absolutely nothing

738
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: to do with me. I have no desire to meet you. Goodbye.

739
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. It was tragic. How sad, you know,

740
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: I mean I was. I was aghast, but I have

741
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: no idea. The backstory made me immediately think, what the

742
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: hell really? So before your dad obviously was married to

743
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: your mother and you and you were born to that family,

744
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: your father had been married to O'Hara, divorced her, and

745
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: then there's no so station with her whatsoever. What are

746
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: some of the pictures your father produced? Um, he produced

747
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: Guns at Batasia, the ms, Mark Marple's movies. You know,

748
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: with Margaret Rutherford, you had no desire to go into

749
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: the film business. No, because I kind of your father's

750
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: making films. He's married Tom to Tatler. To me, editing

751
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: and producing are very very similar. Do you ever want

752
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 1: to make movies? The Vanity Fair Diary has been bought

753
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 1: by has been optioned by Bruno Papandro, who did Big

754
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: Little Lies, So we might see, you know that as

755
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: a streaming video, which would be great for Maybe that's

756
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: a sort of a toe hold in. I have lots

757
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: of ideas for films, actually a lot. They're the same things.

758
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: It's all about wrangling the story, storytelling, storytelling, tracking them

759
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: the material, making the writer do the story you want,

760
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: casting the thing. So I always felt actually the producing

761
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: and writing were very similar. The story was the prism

762
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: into an interesting world. I mean, Dominic Dunn's stories were

763
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: particularly in that vein. I mean, he did a wonderful

764
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: story about Betsy Bloomingdale, Alfred mistress Alfred Bloomingdale, the founder

765
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,439
Speaker 1: of a dinos card. His mistress, Vicky Morgan, was found

766
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: murdered and they blamed this guy Marvin Pancost who beat

767
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 1: at a death with a baseball back. But obviously the

768
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: tension in the story was was she bummed off? Because

769
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: there had been this huge palimony case, and so it

770
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: allowed Nick Dunn to sort of get into the world

771
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: of the Betsy Bloomingdale society around Mrs Reagan and tell

772
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: the story of the sort of slightly dark side if

773
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: you like, of Beverly Hill society. What would you describe

774
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: Nick Dunn? Though? I mean I I sensed in my

775
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: tracking of Nick Dunn's career that he was kind of

776
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: a certain type of writer. Then he became after that

777
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: with his own the murder of his daughter and his

778
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: articles like the Bloomingdale when he becomes like Tales of Hollywood,

779
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: he gets a little pulpy. Well, actually he brings a

780
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: kind of passionate pursuit of justice to it. Actually, so

781
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 1: when for instance, he did the story of the class

782
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: Form Bulah murder case in which class Form Bulah been

783
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: accused of trying to kill his wife who was then

784
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: in a coma from Sonny von Bulow, that was a

785
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: way for him to get into the world of Newport

786
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: and that high society. But it also allowed him to

787
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: to sort of pursue justice on behalf of the children.

788
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: So what actually did motivate nicko did make him better

789
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: than pulpy, was that he he was always trying to

790
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: plead to solve things for the victim because you know,

791
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: he felt himself with the victim's rights crusade victims, and

792
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: that's what gave his pieces such hard So when you

793
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: say you want to go into a world which one

794
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: to dis intrigued the hell out of you, you said,

795
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: there a God. I love this piece, and a lot

796
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: of the foreign stories we did, I absolutely loved. I mean,

797
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: we did a wonderful piece about baby Doc that got

798
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: into the strange sort of voodooe atmosphere of Haiti at

799
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: the time. We did wonderful stories about Africa. Alex Schumutov

800
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: was a fantastic right of us. He did the sort

801
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: of definitive piece about the murder of Diane Fossey, the naturalist,

802
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 1: and what he was so great about that pieces. Everyone

803
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: was writing about her as a great environmentalist who had

804
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: been sort of kill uh, you know, because of her

805
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: pursuit of against the poachers, But what it really came

806
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 1: out was how troubled she was herself as a woman,

807
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: and how actually she she really hated the poachers more

808
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: than she loved the animals. That this woman was a

809
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: really disturbed woman actually as a tree and it was

810
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: and it was a very interesting sort of look at this,

811
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: but how what makes a woman live on the edge

812
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: like that? So these are the kind of stories that

813
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: drove me and to make me a sign of story,

814
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: I have to feel this abiding curiosity is like what

815
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: is the real story here? Like what are we missing

816
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: in all of this? And there are some stories which

817
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: just grabbed my imagination. I mean I look at someone

818
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 1: like Rex Tillerson now and I just think what a

819
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: great story. Rex Tillerson is not because of the obvious things.

820
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 1: He's Secretary of State, like what's happening? But I see

821
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: him as a hugely comic character, you know. I to me,

822
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: the story is big corporate ceo whoeveryone is saluted, you

823
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: know who, who's God in the bad room? And now

824
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 1: he stumbled into this completely insane mess, this looniar ban,

825
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: and he's still playing it as a straight man to

826
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: be going somewhere where he's just dismissed or ignored or

827
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: he's und control. Now, somebody said about about Tennison, who

828
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 1: knows him to meet he Rex runs a very crisp meeting,

829
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: And I was just thinking, like a crisp meeting is

830
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: the opposite of what he's in. I mean, he's now

831
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: in this rambling, insane asylum, and it's like the message

832
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 1: has gone completely off. I just can't imagine him working

833
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: for someone else. Wasn't somebody that he had just that

834
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: he thought was impeccable Tillerson working for him? It just

835
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: seems like inconceivable to me. Uh so you're at Vanity

836
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: Fair for what length of time? I was ever eight

837
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: and a half years, and you know, when I took

838
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: it over, they had twelve pages of advertising. And by

839
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: the end, of course you didn't turn into this juggonnaut

840
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: We had one point two million circulation to on fifty

841
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 1: pages of ads. But you know, about a year and

842
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: a half in new house was actually about to close it.

843
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: And he was almost like a kind of James Thurber

844
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: character because he was this short, nervous never she a

845
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,479
Speaker 1: little man. Yeah, if you you know, he was completely shy.

846
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: I mean he wants, you know, very touchingly kind of

847
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: We were riding home in the car and you know,

848
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: he said to me, I don't think that I don't

849
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: really think I have any power. You know, I have

850
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: no power, And I was thinking wodom and I said,

851
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: but say, you know, you own Random House, you know.

852
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, but if I told publishers what book

853
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: to buy, they wouldn't pay any attention to me. And

854
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: I said, well, well, look at all the magazines. He said, yes,

855
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: but you know the magazine editors don't really, I mean

856
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: I don't think that they don't. Could stop me and

857
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: he said actually, and then he mentioned Mr Shan, who

858
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 1: was the editor of The New York at the time.

859
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: He said, and I find it very hard to get

860
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: Mr Sean on the phone. So I thought it was

861
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: so touching in a way because here was this huge

862
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: mobile but he never started his company, and he did

863
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: love his editors to be stars. I mean, in a

864
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: way it was great because you know sometimes corporate people

865
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: are sort of don't like their employees to have attention,

866
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: and they're sort of you have to be careful because

867
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: you don't get too much attention. And he loved it.

868
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: He loved he said it as being started. And you

869
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: know there was me that was Anna Winter there was

870
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he liked that, and he saw

871
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: us as his studio. Really, where's all the big money

872
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: come in? Does her own billboards, TV stations, radio? Well,

873
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: the money. Really there was him and his brother Donald,

874
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: and his father Sam, who was another tiny, never shoot,

875
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: little fellow with a lot of drive, you know, built

876
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: this huge newspaper empire from this New Jersey newspaper he

877
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: began at the beginning, and then he bought naples in

878
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: every town and soon they had this huge newspaper empire.

879
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: So the cash cow was the newspapers actually, and his

880
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: brother Donald ran the newspaper company, and then Sam, the

881
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: old man, began to get social aspirations and one day

882
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: his wife, legend says, says, you know how much she'd

883
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: like him to buy a copy of Vogue. And he

884
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: came back and he bought her. He miss in you

885
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: how she bought the company, bought her conin us essentially

886
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: because she had decided she wanted to now be a

887
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: lady who lunches a little bit, you know, and nothing

888
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: was better for that than glossy magazines. So the lost

889
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: the magazines began sort of that way. S I basically

890
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: decided he loved magazines. He always had it. He was

891
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: the east Field in the family. Actually, you know, he

892
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: appreciated art. He was fascinated by glamor and magazine a

893
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: culture so he was much better fit for the magazines,

894
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: for the newspapers, and he became a really great magazine publisher,

895
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: and Vanity Fair in Vogue were enormously profitable. They were

896
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: in the end. Yeah, we took it from I mean,

897
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: at the beginning Vanity Fell lost fourteen million dollars and

898
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 1: then I came in and by the time I left,

899
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: it was in profit. And now, of course, you know,

900
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: after years, it's it's a big cash because that his

901
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: gift that he placed the bet, and he stayed with

902
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: the bet. He didn't he didn't falter. Yeah, that was

903
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: what was so great. He stayed with it, and he

904
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: really backed me. I mean, now there was a moment

905
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: of tremor there. I mean a year and a half in,

906
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: you know, we were very much liked by readers, but

907
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: the advertisers were lagging and it was still losing money.

908
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: And I was off in the West Coast about to

909
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: go on the MERV Griffin Show to talk about this

910
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: great cover we had on the Reagans Dancing and Kissing,

911
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: which was one of our great colors. I suddenly realized that,

912
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: you know, everybody I was trying to hire I was

913
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: getting installed. And I called up the office and I said,

914
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: what's happening? And they said, well, you better come back

915
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: and talk to Mr. Newhouse, which I did. Only did

916
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: discover that he was on the point of folding the

917
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: magazine and I had to really surprise you. I was

918
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: a ghasp. I said, you can't and I showed him

919
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: everything I had on the verge. We're on the verge,

920
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: and he gave us another He said, okay, you've got

921
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: another year. And in that year we really pulled it

922
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: out because that's when we had the big class form people.

923
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: Do you think, what do you think it is about you?

924
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: The guy new House to give you another year? What's

925
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: it about you? What's your gift? Actually? What is it

926
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: about him? Really? Because well I showed him what we had.

927
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: You know, I believe, Do you believe? I believed? And

928
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: I you know, I called everybody in the company. I

929
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: just galvanized everybody to just work on him. And I said,

930
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: you've got to give us. Actually, he said, you've got

931
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: two years, and I always knew that was really a year.

932
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: You know, when they say two years, it is really

933
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: a year. So when the magazine blasts off under your

934
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: tenure and becomes this must read for everybody. When does

935
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: it become a parenty, that's time to go. Well, I'm

936
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: very restless type. I mean in the same way I

937
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: left Tatler After Vanity Fair. I've been there for it

938
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: in a half years. I had two children. I didn't

939
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: I didn't want to. I was actually feeling a little restless,

940
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: but I had the young kids, so I didn't want

941
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: to be married to Harold. By now married to Harold,

942
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: I had a child of three and of war one

943
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: of one, and I was willing to get restive. I

944
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: was also kind of tired of the celebrity culture stuff.

945
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: Actually that well, I got tired of the conversation, which is,

946
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: what can Madonna do Thursday or can she do Friday?

947
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: You know she doesn't like the photographer. It was Cadys

948
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: began to kind of which was your stock? And you

949
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: had to kill They were all bread and butter, and

950
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: you know they saw the magazine. Of course, Vanity Fair

951
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: editor Tina Brown. The second half of our conversation covers

952
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: live after Vanity Fair. Her first stop was The New Yorker.

953
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: She was succeeded there by David Remnick, whom she hired

954
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: on Here's the Thing. Remnick told me there's no official

955
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: system for develop up in future New Yorker contributors, so

956
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: you might get lucky. The farm system is the mail.

957
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: The farm system is whoever sending us stuff. You know,

958
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: people think I'm kidding around. People email me every day.

959
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: I probably get fifteen emails a day that go directly

960
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: to me, because my email is not that hard to

961
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: figure out. I have an idea. Here's my short story.

962
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: Now most of them are not going to work. Once

963
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: in a while, though, it happens. Here more stories from

964
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: The New Yorker's David Remnick had Here's the Thing dot org.

965
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's

966
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: the Thing. Tina Brown retired of catering to celebrities at

967
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. She was in the running to be transferred

968
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: to the New Jewel and Condie Nass Crown the New Yorker.

969
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: Things weren't going well there, but the old guard didn't

970
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: want rescuing. By the likes of Tina browns were flying

971
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: rather like the beginning when when I kept hearing about

972
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair, so I had bought The New Yorker. In

973
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: the meantime, sign new house. He had got rid of

974
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: Mr Shawan, the great legendary editor, and put in Bob

975
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: got Leeb who's a fantastic book editor, but a bit

976
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: like his mistake at Vanity Fair. It didn't make him

977
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: a great magazine Edity. The fact that he was a

978
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 1: great book is a different thing. And those people who

979
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: would disagree with you are those people who they were

980
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: pretty happy with Bob gottleieb as the editor. Because we're

981
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: going to get to the subject of the resistance. You agree, No, Actually,

982
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 1: I think the people at the New Yorker. I mean

983
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: Bob Gotley was unlucky because he followed a great legend,

984
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: had been there for thirty years, forty years, right, Mr

985
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: Shawn was one of the great legends. It was Mr Shawan,

986
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: Mr Shwan, and you had put on white gloves to

987
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: speak to him. And so Paul Boal Gottley then came

988
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: into the situation where everybody was very upset about now.

989
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: But then he didn't really know how to do a magazine.

990
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: And you know, he did some good things, but so

991
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: but when I came in, he said, I'd just done

992
00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 1: a cover with the Vanity Fair with Demi Moore, Nick

993
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: and pregnant, and it was something of a sensation. Was

994
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 1: the least wonderful thing we ever worked with. And so

995
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: they thought, here comes this the girl who did. I'm

996
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: under the impression that the New Yorker it was divided.

997
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't I don't have any empirical daddy here,

998
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: but it was divided into two groups. Those who were

999
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: elated you were coming to kind of save the magazine

1000
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: and making improve the sales, and those who felt that

1001
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: you weren't. You know, you'd left the Oxford behind and

1002
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: you were more tatler than Oxford exactly. And you know,

1003
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: I understand why they were nervous, frankly, I mean, why

1004
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't they be. But at the very first meeting that

1005
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 1: I had at the New York Or there was all

1006
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: of this when I was the first woman, obviously because

1007
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: I've only been for it, isn't they all been men?

1008
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: So I come into this room and there were all

1009
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,919
Speaker 1: of these men sitting around the table and talk about

1010
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: the talk about that, what's it like for a woman

1011
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: who's in charge. Well, it was in a place like

1012
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: that where I think they were a bit more old

1013
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: guard at the times. On these places here, women don't

1014
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: always have a great time well, one of the writers,

1015
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: and I think it was could an endemic, referred to

1016
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,439
Speaker 1: me as the girl and the wrong dress, okay, which

1017
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: really explains in a nutshell the attitude to me, which is, like,

1018
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: what is she doing coming in here this? You know,

1019
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: there's a woman who doesn't understand us. And you know,

1020
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: there was a lot of resistance, and I think some

1021
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: of it was misogynist, There's no doubt about it. They

1022
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: really I just blazed through it, you know. I mean

1023
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: you you just like I just raged through it, uh,

1024
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, and I want some of them around too,

1025
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: you know, actually, because what I found was, you know,

1026
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: one thing, I'm a big believer, and he's really listening

1027
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: to who's there, right, So I didn't go in and

1028
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 1: do stuff like just for everybody. I mean I did

1029
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: for actually seventy people in the end, but I did

1030
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: listen to who was there, and I really made quick

1031
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: distinctions about who I thought had it and who didn't.

1032
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: And there was some wonderful older people there, I mean,

1033
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: people like John Updyke and Roger Angel and I mean

1034
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: Lilian Ross. These people were absolutely fabinous and golden and

1035
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: they actually did welcome me. The people who didn't welcome

1036
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: me were the sort of year old actually who felt

1037
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: our identity depended on the New Yorker. I found that

1038
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: the Greatest Generation group, like Brendan Gill and Roger Angel

1039
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: were confident enough not to feel their whole identity dependent

1040
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: on the fake IVY if you like. Of the William

1041
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 1: Shawn commntal, I mean John Updike was up for a venture.

1042
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: I mean, he was sick of doing book reviews. You know,

1043
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: he was quite happy to go off and write about

1044
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: Oscar and Night or something, you know, I mean it

1045
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: was it was interesting. Then what did you say to yourself?

1046
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: What needed to change their Well, what I wanted to

1047
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: do was to hire a bunch of amazing writers who

1048
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: I felt hiring Hiring was job one, and I did.

1049
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I heard David Remney, you know who succeeded me.

1050
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: I had Malcolm Gladwell. I had Jeffrey Tubin, I had

1051
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: Jane Mayer. I had Anthony Lane from London John Lar

1052
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 1: wonderful film with John Lar, who I don't like saying

1053
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: that because film critics are always kind to me in

1054
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 1: the point, but Lanes a wonderful writer, wonderful writer, absolutely marvelous.

1055
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: He was only twenty seven when I heard him. You know,

1056
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: I had your own group when the great medical writer

1057
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: and actual Gowandi and Henry Lewis Gates. I mean, I

1058
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: didn't bring in the most amazing writers and they're all

1059
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: still there. And I also brought in some amazing editors too,

1060
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: And I actually brought in a lot of women. I

1061
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: mean my executive editor, Dorothy Wickenden, who is still my

1062
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: managing editor, Pat McCarthy was still there. They were all

1063
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,959
Speaker 1: of these great women that I brought into some people

1064
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: a lot. When you do that, describe without naming names,

1065
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 1: what's what's that process like? Well, no, one, No. As

1066
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I actually think it, Uh, you

1067
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 1: really need to be very sensitive when you when you

1068
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: are hiring people. I didn't always get it right. Sometimes

1069
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: it blows up and it gets it's wrong or I

1070
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: didn't do it right. But when I did it right,

1071
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: I actually think it takes several conversations because what I

1072
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: learned was the first conversation you have to try to

1073
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: explain that this isn't working out, but they don't hear it,

1074
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 1: and there's a second conversation, and then the third conversation

1075
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: you want someone else to have the conversation. But you know,

1076
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: I do feel keeping dignity is incredibly important. Do you

1077
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: argue on the side of being generous in terms of

1078
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: seferences and people who they really think they're gonna have

1079
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: this job for the rest of their lives but don't. Well.

1080
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: One of the things that was so great about new

1081
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: House because I couldn't be generous, so that he let

1082
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: me be. He was generous, He really was, actually, I

1083
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: mean that was one of the great things about say

1084
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: he didn't as long. You know, once he decided to

1085
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: move on, there was never an argument about this person

1086
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: is having tir a lawyer to say I need more.

1087
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,959
Speaker 1: You know. He was very generous like that. He would

1088
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: just say to people when he had my predecessor at

1089
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: Vantity Fair, he said, look, I'm going to fire him,

1090
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: but I'll keep him on for life, and I'll tell

1091
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: him he can go to Europe. Do I see you?

1092
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: I mean, who does that? Honestly, I mean it's pretty unusual.

1093
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: And so SI was wonderful, like, very very generous. And

1094
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 1: you know, we had a tough time, you know, kind

1095
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: of getting this thing to work. I mean it was

1096
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: losing uh twenty million when I took it over was

1097
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: that why was that? Where have those readers gone? Well?

1098
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 1: It aged, you know it simply that they had really aged,

1099
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: and we just needed to to completely spruce up the end,

1100
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: windows up on the windows. And actually I brought photography

1101
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: into The New Yorker, which I had never had. I

1102
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: brought Richard avan And to take pictures. I had our

1103
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 1: Speedlman to be one of the cover artists. I brought

1104
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: in his wife, frans Wis Mooley to be the art director.

1105
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: So I really brought my visual sense to them. So

1106
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: you bring the tools you have for the other magazines

1107
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: to this with some changes, and I resigned it. I

1108
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: mean we really sort of facelifted it but kept its

1109
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: kind of purity. But where you have um where you

1110
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: talk about coming from Vanity Fair with an abundance if

1111
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: you will, not exclusively so, but an abundance of celebrity culture,

1112
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: you come into the New Yorker, do you decide you

1113
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: have to have some you need to start to insert

1114
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: a little of that DNA into the New Yorker as well.

1115
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: A tad friend, actually I did, so, Yeah, he's excellent,

1116
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: But in fact, the one I would beg to differ

1117
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: about that well, we're gonna have an argument about that.

1118
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: That's okay, okay, I'll leave that with you. UM. For instance,

1119
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: Jeff Tubin, who I had as our legal sort of analyst.

1120
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: He was an assistant d A at the time, young

1121
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: assistant d A, and I wanted to cover a law

1122
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: when the O. J. Simpson story broke, Jeff actually had

1123
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: had two or three pieces that hadn't worked out, and

1124
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: I was begin to think, oh my god, I made

1125
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 1: a mistake with this guy. Jeff le talk about the

1126
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: Clintons is one of my favorite books, Such a wonderful water.

1127
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: But he went off to l A. I said, why

1128
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: don't you just go and cover this O. J. Simpson

1129
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: thing and see whether this pants out. That story just

1130
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: took ahold of Jeff. He broke news on it, and

1131
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: he became And what was wonderful was he brought his

1132
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: kind of legal rigor to the story, but at the

1133
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: same time it was the great compulsively glitzy story of

1134
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: our time. That's what I think I did bring into

1135
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: the New Yorker DNA was a sense that, you know,

1136
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: by doing Jeff Tubin on on on O. J. Simpson,

1137
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: I kind of set that table which now today where

1138
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: Rodan Farah can do Harvey Weinstein. It's a legitimate subject matter.

1139
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: So how long are you with the New Yorker? I

1140
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: was in The New Yorker for nearly seven years. Did

1141
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: you keep a New Yorker diary? Less off alas? Because

1142
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: it was a weekly and I had a kid, and

1143
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, so it was much harder for me to

1144
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: do it, and I you know, I regret that I

1145
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: didn't write it with as much kind of intensity and

1146
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: detail that I did Vanity Fair diaries. So I didn't

1147
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: do as much. And then after six and a half

1148
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: seven years, I've been kind to get frustrated there because

1149
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: I always felt The New Yorker should be more by

1150
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: the end, that it should be more than a magazine.

1151
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to see it be a radio show, a

1152
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: book company. Just described real quickly, how is it different

1153
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: at the New Yorker? Well, comparing trash the two, it

1154
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: was much more open warfare against me at the New

1155
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: Yorker at the beginning, you know, because we had this

1156
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: huge kind of pushback from the old Guard, expecting that

1157
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: this was going to be me putting Demi Moore and

1158
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: in the magazine, I mean, fristus, the cartoonist Bob Mankoff.

1159
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: He thought that I was going to cancel all of

1160
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: cartoons and just put pictures in, and of course it

1161
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: was the reverse was true. I actually gave the car

1162
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: Bob Mankoff. I made him cartoon editor, and I actually

1163
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: gave you know, him a whole cartoon issue every Christmas

1164
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: to do. But he had a documentary out of it,

1165
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: and he got a documentary, and I started the cartoon

1166
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: bank and all of these things that he's wonderful. He's

1167
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: absolutely we became the best of friends. But but for

1168
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: the first two or three years it was this kind

1169
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: of what is she trying to do? But then I

1170
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: think what happened basically was that a lot of the

1171
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: defective left the new amazing people were so good. I mean,

1172
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: when you have people like Room Nick and Nick Hertzberg

1173
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: who are brought in and I love him so dearly.

1174
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: I mean, he's the cleverest and the best, and you

1175
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: know that talk. It was like a graft. It was

1176
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: like a skin graph, right. And there was a wonderful

1177
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: moment actually when I was having a sandwich with John

1178
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: Updyke in the office and before he came Anthony Lane

1179
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: the film critics said to me, oh, here having lunch

1180
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: with John Updyck. I am, He's my hero. I just

1181
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: want to meet him. So I said, okay, well I'm

1182
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: in the middle of lunch, you know. Just knock on

1183
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: the door and I'll introduce you to John. Knock, knock

1184
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: through the and as he comes in, John Updyke jumps

1185
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:40,919
Speaker 1: up and says, Anthony Leane, I've been so looking forward

1186
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: to meeting you. It was a wonderful moment because it

1187
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: was you saw the blood exchange had happened, you know,

1188
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: which was the older guarden. And from that moment, really,

1189
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: you know, it all settled down and we were soon

1190
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: the most amazingly exciting. When the time comes to leave

1191
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 1: the New Yorker, I mean, I'm sure, having taken two

1192
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: magazines and really, well we'll throw a tattler. Yeah, but

1193
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 1: but but here in the U s fantity there in

1194
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: the New Yorker and having tremendous success with them in

1195
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: a new house behind you, what did you fantasize would

1196
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: be next? Well, I had this fantasy of an extended

1197
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: media laterally, you see, as I said, I wanted to

1198
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: do radio's books, TV shows out of the New Yorker

1199
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: brand sign your house. For all of his wonderfulness did

1200
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: not get that. That's where he stumbled, actually, because frankly

1201
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: had he done that twenty years ago. I mean this

1202
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 1: was I didn't understand where we were heading. He did

1203
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: not understand where we were headed. Conn didn't miss the

1204
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: miss the trick when it came to getting ahead of

1205
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: that curve. I mean, the things that I told side

1206
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: to do in the nineties were the things that they

1207
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: should have done because I was I did see it early,

1208
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: probably too early and too early for him to see

1209
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: your sound nuts. It was like settled down on do

1210
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: your magazine and like go back to your knittings, Go

1211
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: have lunch with updates, Go have lunch with up that.

1212
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: Yet I was thinking I wanted So along comes a

1213
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: person who has been in the news lately, Mr Harvey Weinstein,

1214
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 1: who comes to me and says, I want you to

1215
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: come and do a magazine with Mirrormax. You can do books,

1216
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: you can do films, you can do all of these

1217
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: things that you have. The idea you had want to

1218
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: back you talk is the magazine Talk magazine. We just

1219
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: called it. So I said, okay, I'll do this, and

1220
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: I thought that he was the sort of the missing

1221
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 1: piece of entrepreneurial verve that was going to help me

1222
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 1: develop these thoughts. And you know, I leapt out of

1223
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: the Ivory Tower into a well. I wanted it to

1224
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: be a rough and tumble thing. I was ready for that.

1225
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 1: I had been at the Court of Louis the fourteenth,

1226
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: as it were, for seventeen years, and I thought this

1227
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: would be exciting and rugged. And I'm going to know,

1228
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: how does a new house compared to Harvey Weinstein? Oh

1229
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: my god, I mean, you know, it was like a

1230
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: bad dream. New House was always sort of courteous, always warm,

1231
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: really and difficult, but he was a gentleman. He was

1232
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: generally he could mean, he could be very difficult, he

1233
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 1: could be very irritating, but he was never abusive or

1234
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: in any way inappropriate. And I find it unbelievable that

1235
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: Harvey was abusive to you. Well, he was actually I mean,

1236
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean he basically was. Well he Harvey.

1237
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 1: The problem with Harvy is here, and I immediately had

1238
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: a completely opposed vision of what it should be. I mean,

1239
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to leave the New Yorker and Vanity Fair

1240
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: to do something obviously different, from either of them, right.

1241
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: I had this concept of a literary news magazine that

1242
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 1: was going to be like in a European news magazine.

1243
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 1: I was in love with magazines like Perry, Match and Stern,

1244
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 1: and I love those magazines, and I wanted to do

1245
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 1: a European news magazine with a New Yorker quality type

1246
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 1: face and content with amazing photography like Perry Matt. That

1247
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: was the idea, with a cover with multiple images on

1248
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 1: it and all of the things that hadn't been really

1249
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: done here. I love those magazines. I did the first

1250
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: couple couple of issues. They were amazingly good. But when

1251
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: within about two months, I mean Harvey immediately started to say,

1252
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: I want Vanity Fair with you to just a copy

1253
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. I want you to have you know, Matt

1254
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: Damon on the cover. I want you to say completely

1255
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: and I you know. And it became so frustrating to

1256
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: me because I felt that I was being forced into

1257
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: this kind of celebrity journalism again, but in this wildly

1258
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: unstable environment where also I was having a very hand

1259
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 1: fisted way by the hand fisted when it wasn't what

1260
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to do, and I found it very, very

1261
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: distracting and hiring and firing. Was that another point of friction.

1262
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 1: I have my own team at first, but I did find,

1263
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: of course that Harvey wanted to go around town of

1264
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: signing things all the time, and I mean that never

1265
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 1: happened before. The deals that were made by Harvey for

1266
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: for Talk and for the book publisher was flight attendance

1267
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: on private jets, So there was a lot of that.

1268
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: I would run into a person who would tell me

1269
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: that his piece was coming in on Wednesday, you know,

1270
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: and I would say, what peace, you know, and how

1271
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 1: am I going to pay for it? Because it was

1272
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: also my budget that was like streaming out the door.

1273
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 1: So I, you know, I felt extremely frustrated with it,

1274
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: but you know, it was having leapt out of the

1275
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 1: New Yorker, obviously, it was. It was heartbreaking. It was

1276
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 1: heartbreaking really what happened. Of course, then it didn't go

1277
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: well because you know that it lasted for two years

1278
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: and then actually nine eleven really put the kibosh on

1279
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: it because then advertising disappeared and then you were going

1280
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 1: to have to have deep pockets behind you. Did you

1281
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: walk away? Just was like you got a car service

1282
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:03,800
Speaker 1: and took off and never spoke to him again or

1283
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: was an actually know, as a matter of fact, you know,

1284
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: I stayed on perfectly okay terms with Harvey after that.

1285
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of the day, it's like,

1286
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, what happened happened. So you write the thing

1287
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: about Lady Diana, who I met once in one and something.

1288
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 1: She was so much more beautiful and more interesting in person.

1289
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: It almost didn't do her justice. She was stunning, stunning,

1290
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 1: and it was all about the coloring. I mean it

1291
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: was this piece is gorgeous, peach felvet face and this

1292
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 1: huge olympid blue feeling eyes. Didn't realize I did. I did,

1293
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 1: and I always felt like you did. In fact, I

1294
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 1: had lunch with her in New York about six weeks

1295
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: before she died, and when she walked into the Four Seasons,

1296
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: it was just so she's so stunning, you know, because

1297
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: she's so huge. I mean, she's like this gazelle who's like,

1298
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 1: you know, six ft something. It felt, you know, in

1299
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: the shoes and the eyes that were just so enormous,

1300
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 1: and yet she was so lonely, talked about loneliness and

1301
01:05:57,600 --> 01:05:59,959
Speaker 1: how you know in August she was dreading August because

1302
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 1: the children were going off to stay with Charles and

1303
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: pal Moral and how she she said, nobody wants me

1304
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 1: to have me to stay. And I said, what are

1305
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: you talking about. Everybody wants to have you know, she said,

1306
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 1: you said the paparazzi calm and they go through your garbage,

1307
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: and you know, you just said, it's just horrible to

1308
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: have me to stay. She said, I am, you know,

1309
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: I have nowhere to go in August my children. And

1310
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: I just thought how extraordinary it was that she felt

1311
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: that lonely. But it also did explain when you learned

1312
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: of her deaths, you know, six weeks later or whatever

1313
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: it was, what she was doing in the south of France.

1314
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: I mean, she was really there because she was so lonely.

1315
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: And along time the al Fayette family, you have what

1316
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: you call all the toys are either planes and the

1317
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 1: bodyguards and you know, and the chauffeurs and stuff. So

1318
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: Jackie Kennedy marrying on exactly the same. Some of the

1319
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: most prominent figures, I mean, your peers, if you will,

1320
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 1: in terms of their prominence in the publishing world. Graydon

1321
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 1: is leaving, Robbie Meyer and Jan sold the business, and

1322
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 1: I'm wondering it's just technology. I mean, I think digital

1323
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 1: disruption has become so intense that for many of them

1324
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 1: it was like, look, I had a great time, and

1325
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 1: let's leave this now to someone who couldn't just do

1326
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: this reinvention because I did my stuff. You could have

1327
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: kept going, did you well? No. I decided to start

1328
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: a live media company because I felt that it was

1329
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: no longer about stories and pictures and captions and words,

1330
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 1: which is what I love to do, and had become

1331
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: all about how am I going to get the revenue stream?

1332
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: What is the digital platform? You know, all of that

1333
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: anguish that is about process as opposed to stories. And

1334
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: so I now do many of these live events where

1335
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: I can at least showcase incredible stories and put them

1336
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: on the stage and have people watching them, which is

1337
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 1: what we do with women in the world because just

1338
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 1: magazines cannot anymore survive. This is Kathleen Russo and that

1339
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: was my summer staff pick. I hope you enjoyed it.

1340
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. We'll be back with Alec next week.

1341
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:03,479
Speaker 1: Four