Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. You may not know the
Speaker 1: name of my guest today, but you certainly know his work.
Speaker 1: In fact, you've probably watched hours upon hours of it.
Speaker 1: He's been called the Steven Spielberg of sitcom's, the Willie
Speaker 1: Mays of directing, the sitcom Sorcerer. It's the legendary James Burrows.
Speaker 1: Burrows is the director of some of the most popular
Speaker 1: and acclaimed television shows in history, including Taxi, Cheers, Will
Speaker 1: and Grace, Friends, and Frasier. In his five decades of work,
Speaker 1: the eleven time Emmy winner has directed seventy five pilots
Speaker 1: that went to series, including The Big Bang Theory and
Speaker 1: Two and a Half Men, spanning over one thousand hours
Speaker 1: of television. He's also the author of a memoir entitled
Speaker 1: Directed by James Burrows, which we counts his incredible career.
Speaker 1: Burrows also has an amazing pedigree. He's the son of
Speaker 1: famed radio and theater director Abe Burrows, but Tony and
Speaker 1: Politzer Prize winner whose credits include Guys and Dolls and
Speaker 1: How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. I wanted
Speaker 1: to know what it was like growing up with such
Speaker 1: an accomplished and influential father. My parents were divorced, so
Speaker 1: we live with our mom five blocks away from our dad.
Speaker 1: So we'd see our dad probably twice a week, once,
Speaker 1: you know, on a school day for dinner, and then
Speaker 1: on a Sunday for maybe football or something like that.
Speaker 1: So he was around in that way. But I al
Speaker 1: would like to say that, you know, I was in
Speaker 1: the family business. I didn't know anything else. The only
Speaker 1: thing I knew is I didn't want to be in
Speaker 1: that business. I didn't want to. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: try to compete with a legend because he was a
Speaker 1: legend in New York City, brought by music. Yeah, Broadway
Speaker 1: musicals and Broadway plays. And my sister and I used
Speaker 1: to go when we were thirteen and fourteen and meet
Speaker 1: you know, Truman, Capodi and John Steinbeck and Comdon and
Speaker 1: Green and called porter Una. I mean, all these they
Speaker 1: were just older people. They I didn't know. I had
Speaker 1: no idea what boring boring. I like to say my
Speaker 1: dad taught me when I didn't know I was learning,
Speaker 1: because he would trundle my sister and I off to
Speaker 1: rehearsals occasionally, and we would sit in the audience because
Speaker 1: we're gonna have dinner with him. We would come like
Speaker 1: four o'clock and we sit in the house and see
Speaker 1: him working on stage or a rehearsal hall, and we
Speaker 1: didn't I didn't understand what he did at all. But again,
Speaker 1: it was a lot of osmosis at work, latent learning,
Speaker 1: the latent learning, Yeah, it's in there, and then he
Speaker 1: winning the back seat with your sister going no, Dad,
Speaker 1: I got a horse right here. His name is It's
Speaker 1: a little dough. Put them in there. No, I never
Speaker 1: did that. I never remember time did I did. When
Speaker 1: I after college and graduate school, I worked with him
Speaker 1: as a stage manager, so I would inject a couple
Speaker 1: of what I thought were funny things, and he was
Speaker 1: incredibly tolerant of me. I think one of them made
Speaker 1: it in one of his plays. But that was it.
Speaker 1: But isn't it funny how in your life it all
Speaker 1: loops around in a way. Because I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: you a question about the nature of casts who have
Speaker 1: roots in the theater and those that don't. A lot
Speaker 1: of theater roots with Kelsey and Hyde Pierce and with
Speaker 1: the Will and grace cast. Isn't it funny? In the
Speaker 1: life of Jimmy Burrows? Did we come back to this,
Speaker 1: which is Megan mollal mean, Megan does how to succeed
Speaker 1: with Matthew A long long time ago? Your dad, I
Speaker 1: went to see it, of course, I said, they playhouse.
Speaker 1: I thought to where I saw it. I was with dad,
Speaker 1: my wife and then my sister's late husband. We're in
Speaker 1: a motor home and a driver and drove it down
Speaker 1: and drove drove down Illahoya and it was it was one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was wonderful. But then that leads me to I
Speaker 1: want to get back to your schooling. Why go from
Speaker 1: it was political science? And what were you studying at government?
Speaker 1: Studying government? And then you go and you get a
Speaker 1: master's degree in theater. You know, you're in the Yale
Speaker 1: drama program. Why are you trying to run away from
Speaker 1: the family business. I was trying to run away from
Speaker 1: the draft. You know it was it was Vietnam wartime,
Speaker 1: and uh, you're probably too young. A lot of us
Speaker 1: didn't believe in the war and that particular one. And
Speaker 1: after Oberlin I got my draft notice, I decided to
Speaker 1: try and postpone it. As long as I could. So
Speaker 1: I went to the Yale School of Drama, where I
Speaker 1: was exposed to all these you know, because if you're
Speaker 1: in there, you have to take a course in directing, acting, playwrighting,
Speaker 1: scenic design, stage manager, all these courses. And I went
Speaker 1: and had a class in directing with Nico Sakaropolis, who
Speaker 1: who went on to run The Williams. And he kind
Speaker 1: of in my eyes to exactly what a director does.
Speaker 1: Because I knew I was an actor, I knew I
Speaker 1: couldn't write plays, so I, you know, I got to
Speaker 1: direct a couple of small scenes. I think I did.
Speaker 1: I got the horse right here with a couple of students.
Speaker 1: I staged that and and then when I got out,
Speaker 1: I still had to take a physical for the Army,
Speaker 1: and fortunately I was. They didn't want me, I was.
Speaker 1: I guess I was too funny, you know, So I
Speaker 1: can't have that, I know, God, No, we need discipline.
Speaker 1: And then I started stage managing because as a stage
Speaker 1: manager you direct the understudies. So I got more and
Speaker 1: more practice in doing that, and then I would do
Speaker 1: summer stock productions of The Odd Couple with Stubby k
Speaker 1: and Arnold Stangby k who was in the original original
Speaker 1: Guys and Dolls, and you know productions of Never Too
Speaker 1: Late with Bob Cummings. But let me let me just
Speaker 1: say that street Car on Broadway. I considered that one
Speaker 1: of the great years on Broadway because Kate Burton's doing
Speaker 1: Jex Women with Alan Alda and Guys and Telsa's I'm
Speaker 1: Broadly with Nathan and I'll never forget the Banner. Although
Speaker 1: we did run for a very long time, it was
Speaker 1: in a huge success. This the banner all wrapped around
Speaker 1: the canopy said this show will run forever. But I
Speaker 1: went to see that show twice and Faith Prince. They
Speaker 1: all made me cry. Walter Bobby playing that role and
Speaker 1: singing rock in the boat and I love that show.
Speaker 1: I cried. And Peter Gallaghter Galina Gallagher was sky Masters, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a dear friend of mine. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: all of them, I mean, I love that show. That
Speaker 1: was the most funny I've ever had watching a show
Speaker 1: without the producers. I mean, I love Nathan, but then
Speaker 1: Stubby k and you're and you're directing the understudies And
Speaker 1: what did you think directing was back then? And how
Speaker 1: has that changed over the years. Well for you, Directing
Speaker 1: for me was back then you had a script that
Speaker 1: never changed. So I was doing plays. You know, I
Speaker 1: had a couple of plausas week marriage go around, so
Speaker 1: there was a lot of nuance involved in it, a
Speaker 1: lot of you know, I could put in physical bits
Speaker 1: when I thought it would help. So I knew I
Speaker 1: had that creative sense. I did in uh ninety eight,
Speaker 1: after you know I had in my career had taken off,
Speaker 1: I did a theater production to the man who came
Speaker 1: to Dinner with Mahoney because Mahony, Yeah, Mahoney was on
Speaker 1: Frasier and he arranged for me to direct it at Steppenwolf,
Speaker 1: and uh, I put in like four jokes, you know,
Speaker 1: and George Calfman's daughter came to the show, and I was,
Speaker 1: you know, I was concerned. I knew George. I knew
Speaker 1: George through my dad and George Calsan's daughter. And at
Speaker 1: the end she said, I liked your auditions. It was
Speaker 1: so sweet. Usually they hated, but they were they were
Speaker 1: big laughs. So but anyway, so when I was, you know,
Speaker 1: doing summerstock and dinner thing, I was just trying. You
Speaker 1: had to get a play up on its feet in
Speaker 1: a week. So there was a lot of rapid stuff.
Speaker 1: So I found myself people who could think, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: found myself more dinner theaters wanted me and or regional
Speaker 1: theorist Coast, East Coast. You know, television is a writer's
Speaker 1: medium too, as in Broadway. Broadway, the playwright is paramount
Speaker 1: in in what I do, the writers are paramount. But
Speaker 1: I have my time along with the actors. As you know,
Speaker 1: I've directed you a few times, and that's the time
Speaker 1: when my creative juices come out, and I don't want
Speaker 1: a guy behind me judging, you know what I do.
Speaker 1: What I say, I'll move, you know, say the line
Speaker 1: this way before I can see it and say, well,
Speaker 1: maybe that doesn't work. I don't want a guy behind
Speaker 1: me saying no, don't prompt, preempting me. That's totally debilitating
Speaker 1: for a director who would preempt you. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: the writers, No, I know, but when the writers come down,
Speaker 1: they see our work, you know, they see what we've passed. Yes,
Speaker 1: I get a pass, and you know I'll never forget.
Speaker 1: In a taxi episode I was directing, I had him move.
Speaker 1: I had this move that I thought it was funny,
Speaker 1: and I don't remember who did it, but the actor
Speaker 1: executed it. And then all of a sudden the writer
Speaker 1: turned around to me and said, what the funk was that?
Speaker 1: And so we went on with rehearsal, and after I
Speaker 1: took him aside and I said, if I'm not allowed
Speaker 1: to fail, I'll give you nine good things, but one
Speaker 1: may be bad. But you know, God forbid, he's over
Speaker 1: my shoulder when I'm when I'm trying to do it
Speaker 1: for myself. So you know, everything you think of, you
Speaker 1: think is funny, it's not necessarily funny. In the end,
Speaker 1: you have to, you know, try try it. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: describe for me the seam of whatever length and whatever
Speaker 1: different components takes you from directing Stubby k And we
Speaker 1: were seeing stand ins to your first four ways into Hollywood?
Speaker 1: When does Hollywood become your future? In nineteen sixty six,
Speaker 1: my first job on Broadway was as the assistant to
Speaker 1: the assistant stage manager on the Broadway production of Breakfast
Speaker 1: at Tiffany's, a musical that my dad wrote based on
Speaker 1: Breakfast at Tiffany's. And so as the assistant to the
Speaker 1: assistant I was in charge of the actors from Hollywood
Speaker 1: who were going to be in the show. Mary Tyler, Moore,
Speaker 1: Richard Chamberlain, Laura Petrie and Dr Kildare, We're going to
Speaker 1: be in the production. And it was not my dad's
Speaker 1: best work at all. It was you know, he went
Speaker 1: into rehearsal with one act and we opened in Philadelphia
Speaker 1: and they had a huge advance sale because of Dr
Speaker 1: Kildare and Laura Petrie, and then it was Chamberlain, Dick Chamberlain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so David Merrick didn't like the show, so he
Speaker 1: replaced my dad with Edward Albe. Wow. Wow, an obvious choice.
Speaker 1: Let's have Dick chamber and Mary Tyler. We'll cool each
Speaker 1: other's eyes out. Well, they're swimming bobbles of vodka. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you wanted George and Martha, you know. So
Speaker 1: then Mark didn't want to go back out of town
Speaker 1: with the show, so we played previews and Edward did
Speaker 1: stuff to help the production by putting in Holly's miscarriage.
Speaker 1: This is a Broadway musical. It was just horrible. And
Speaker 1: the audience when we opened in New York for previous
Speaker 1: food and every time Mary would come off stage, I
Speaker 1: would be there and she would wrap her arms around
Speaker 1: me and start crying. She was so devastated by the
Speaker 1: audience reaction. And once they night came, Mary closed the show.
Speaker 1: I sat with Mary at Sartie's. We had an awake
Speaker 1: at Sarti's till Grant Tinker, her husband arrived, and they
Speaker 1: went off, and then I went to Summer Stock and everything.
Speaker 1: And then in ninety three I was watching television on
Speaker 1: US Saturday night after directing Joan Fontaine in Forty Carrots,
Speaker 1: and I turned on the television. There was a Mary
Speaker 1: Tyler Moore show and I hadn't seen it before, I
Speaker 1: hadn't registered with me before, but I noticed they were
Speaker 1: doing a play. There's a multi camera sitcom, which you know,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a play that's filmed. It's proscenium, proscenium,
Speaker 1: everything like that. And I said, wow, they're doing twenty
Speaker 1: five minutes in a week and I'm doing two hours
Speaker 1: in a week. I think I can do that. So
Speaker 1: I wrote a letter to Mary Tyler Moore because I
Speaker 1: didn't know Grant that well. And about two weeks later
Speaker 1: I got a letter from Grant Inker saying, we have
Speaker 1: four multi camera sitcoms. We are very interested in theatrical directors.
Speaker 1: Would you come out and do one show that was
Speaker 1: February of I said, great, maybe I was going to
Speaker 1: do a New Heart or a Rhoda or a Bob
Speaker 1: Crane show or a Paul Sancho, but said, no, you're
Speaker 1: gonna do a Mary Tyler Moore show. You know. So
Speaker 1: I was thrust into this, into this endeavor I didn't know.
Speaker 1: I had to learn. I had to come and observe
Speaker 1: for three months to observe the technical aspectal you know,
Speaker 1: I knew how to talk to actors and stuff like that, which,
Speaker 1: even though it was much simpler back then, I'm sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's still something that was foreign too. Yeah, totally foreign.
Speaker 1: So I had to learn that. I learned that by
Speaker 1: watching J Sandrich, who was my mentor and to me,
Speaker 1: the king of Sitcom's describe that experience, meaning when you're
Speaker 1: doing it and you've been around successful people, all the
Speaker 1: cylinders are clicking on great shows, how to succeed your dad,
Speaker 1: or these legendary musicals, things you've done, And when you
Speaker 1: were there, did you sit there and go, yeah, I
Speaker 1: like this. Okay, you're going to get a courtesy van.
Speaker 1: Back to the telling your furnishing van for Mr. Your
Speaker 1: first shot in television and you're on like the number
Speaker 1: of top five show with the biggest people in television.
Speaker 1: I know, I was scared out of my witch and
Speaker 1: it was it was daunting. You know. You read the
Speaker 1: script around it able as you know, before you rehearse,
Speaker 1: and it was a C minus script and I said,
Speaker 1: the grand tinker in a sea of Danish, I get
Speaker 1: a bagel, you know. So I had the script and
Speaker 1: in those days, you went down and immediately rehearsed and
Speaker 1: while the writers were rewriting, so you were rehearsing stuff
Speaker 1: on your feet, on your feet that you knew it
Speaker 1: was going to change. So it was like rearranging chickchairs
Speaker 1: on the Titanic. And Mary, Mary hated the script and
Speaker 1: she would complain. I said, hopefully they'll make it better.
Speaker 1: And it was called The Neighbors something like that because
Speaker 1: it was Loue moves into Rhoda's apartment because Rhoda had
Speaker 1: spun off to do her own show. So lou moves
Speaker 1: into Rhoda's apartment, so that lou and Mary are living
Speaker 1: together and they're working together. So that was the thrust
Speaker 1: of the show. And uh, you know, I was just
Speaker 1: treading water. I was, you know, five six of the
Speaker 1: best actors on television, and I was a thirty four
Speaker 1: year old Pisha who they probably didn't think I knew
Speaker 1: what I was doing, and I didn't think I knew
Speaker 1: what I was doing. But what happened? You said that
Speaker 1: it was a C plus D script, But I invoked Chekhov,
Speaker 1: I invoked Shakespeare just to try to enhance the piece
Speaker 1: and make the piece better. How so, well, in the
Speaker 1: last scene, when Lou figures it's time to move out,
Speaker 1: I had his two suitcases there, and I said to
Speaker 1: Marry into ed, sit on those suitcases and reminisce like
Speaker 1: you're in the cherry orchard and you're leaving the cherry orchard.
Speaker 1: So they did. And you know, I tried to put
Speaker 1: in some funny stuff, but I never I played by
Speaker 1: the rules of that show. If you're going in as
Speaker 1: a guest director on a show, you gotta play by
Speaker 1: the rules of that show, you know, you just because everybody, yeah,
Speaker 1: you do. And so I I did that. And just
Speaker 1: before the show was shot, I was walking to back
Speaker 1: to my dressing room and Mary came out of her
Speaker 1: trailer and she stopped me and she said, Jim, we
Speaker 1: feel our investment and you has worked out. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I wept. I went back. I wept, And the next
Speaker 1: day I had called from the New Heart Show, from
Speaker 1: the Paul Sanchow, from Bob Crane Show. They wanted me
Speaker 1: to direct. So that literally was the birth of my
Speaker 1: television career. Director James Burrows. If you enjoyed conversations with
Speaker 1: accomplished directors, check out my episode with Cameron Crowe. Generally,
Speaker 1: not every time, but generally a movie will have your spirit,
Speaker 1: your the movie will have your signature somewhere. Even even
Speaker 1: the movies where, like you know, Penny Marshall came in
Speaker 1: at the last minute and replaced so and so it's
Speaker 1: it's a Penny Marshall movie. The director's personality seeps in Hallelujah.
Speaker 1: And I love playing with that. I love playing with
Speaker 1: like the sensibility and the feeling that the movie is
Speaker 1: gonna give you. Music helps the relationship on the set,
Speaker 1: Like when we've been able to work together, it's really
Speaker 1: been wonderful to have like the environmental version of directing
Speaker 1: where we all are together kind of vibing, and there
Speaker 1: are relationships that are separate and the characters are part
Speaker 1: of it and we're doing this thing together. I think
Speaker 1: that feeling gets into the movie. Here the rest of
Speaker 1: my conversation with Cameron Crowe in our archives at Here's
Speaker 1: the Thing dot org. After the break, James Burrows tells
Speaker 1: us about the casting kismet on Friends. I'm Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The Emmy winning
Speaker 1: series Cheers ran for eleven seasons, for a total of
Speaker 1: two episodes, with James Burrows directing all but thirty five
Speaker 1: of them. I wanted to know how he chooses to
Speaker 1: stay with the show for the length of its run
Speaker 1: as he did with Cheers. Well, it was at a
Speaker 1: point where people felt confident enough for me to be
Speaker 1: the permanent director. Did other shows have them, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think Paul Bogart did a lot of All in the Families,
Speaker 1: and John Richard a lot of Dick Van Dyke shows,
Speaker 1: and Jay did The Mary's but nobody did as many
Speaker 1: as I did. And I did it. I did it
Speaker 1: because I love the show. But the people who don't
Speaker 1: know the first show that you do that of the
Speaker 1: long runs which one taxi Taxi was created by the guys.
Speaker 1: Two of the guys who created The Mary Tyler Moore Show.
Speaker 1: Jim Brooks and Alan Burns created Mary Tyler Moore. Jim
Speaker 1: Brooks and Ed Weinberger. Ed was a writer on the show,
Speaker 1: Stan Daniels and Dave Davis Worthy four who created a
Speaker 1: taxi and they asked me to be the permanent director.
Speaker 1: So although once before I did Laverne and Shirley, I
Speaker 1: directed some of them. And after about three shows, Gary
Speaker 1: Marshall took me to do you remember ni Ovalas and Nicodell's,
Speaker 1: the two restaurants that were on the paramount, and he said,
Speaker 1: would you consider staying with the show? And I, and
Speaker 1: all due respect to you, I I can't. It was
Speaker 1: too it was too it was too crazy. My friend
Speaker 1: was a writer on that show, Dan Olson, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: Dana Wilson was my buddy and I hung out with
Speaker 1: him and he told me, I don't want to pin
Speaker 1: this on Olsen, but someone told me that they're corresponding managers.
Speaker 1: Their respective managers would sit there with stop watches in time,
Speaker 1: how long the tally light was on their client, who
Speaker 1: got more camera time. There was such a kind of
Speaker 1: a competitiveness between Penny and Penny, and so I was
Speaker 1: on the show and the ship hit her fan. He
Speaker 1: said it was really not. It was such a successful show,
Speaker 1: and they just it was not anyway. So I told
Speaker 1: Gary I didn't want to do do it, and then one
Speaker 1: tact she came along and I read that script and
Speaker 1: they asked me to commit to it. I said, sure,
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken Taxi. At that point, Danza went
Speaker 1: on to do Who's the Boss after Taxi? Correct? So
Speaker 1: you had a menagerie of actors, none of whom were
Speaker 1: that famous on their own, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: De Vito, Lloyd, Judd Hirsch had a Broadway career, but
Speaker 1: not a big TV or film Danza, Mary Lou Kaufman,
Speaker 1: all of them, this is the show that made them
Speaker 1: really famous, that took them to that next level. And
Speaker 1: I was wondering, what's it like for you when you
Speaker 1: work with a bunch of people. Do you see them?
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to disparage anybody, but would you
Speaker 1: say people become big stars in these television shows, do
Speaker 1: they change? Yeah? I mean without naming names, do you
Speaker 1: see the cast change? The cast jelled for me? That
Speaker 1: was again I talked about that as an interplanetary cast.
Speaker 1: There are there are people. You know, Andy was a
Speaker 1: comic and and the bravest comic I've ever seen in
Speaker 1: my life. And Tony was a boxer, croner and a croner.
Speaker 1: And so my job, as I talked about in the book,
Speaker 1: is to create a homogeneous group of people who are
Speaker 1: all in a lifeboat. Everybody has their own oars and
Speaker 1: pulls it intoandem. And so it was that was my
Speaker 1: first big show. And it was difficult on that show
Speaker 1: because there were so many eccentricities. Andy Kaufman had day
Speaker 1: night reversal and didn't come into one, but he had
Speaker 1: a photographic memory, so he didn't you know, he knew
Speaker 1: his part when he came in. You know, Jim Brooks,
Speaker 1: the writer was off doing starting over that movie. He
Speaker 1: was writing it, and so we had all these things
Speaker 1: that you had to juggle, and so it was very
Speaker 1: difficult for me. But I think there's some of my
Speaker 1: best work. Some of the funniest shows I've ever did
Speaker 1: are on war done on taxi. I think, what does
Speaker 1: the yellow light mean? The Reverend Gym show when he
Speaker 1: becomes a cabbyast goes down in history as maybe the
Speaker 1: biggest laugh I've ever directed. And so I don't know
Speaker 1: if they, Well, look who who would you think be
Speaker 1: the movie star at that show? Danny DeVito. I had
Speaker 1: a wonderful time on the show. I learned a lot
Speaker 1: and it's the moment that I cemented my relationship with
Speaker 1: the Charles brothers because the Charles brothers were producers on
Speaker 1: that show. So they had a difficult task in coordinating
Speaker 1: the writing because Jim wasn't around all the time and
Speaker 1: when he came, he would say he wanted it this way,
Speaker 1: and then Ed would see that and say, no, I
Speaker 1: want it this way. So it was it was difficult.
Speaker 1: It turned out to be a wonderful show. But Glenn
Speaker 1: a Less had as difficult a time as I did,
Speaker 1: and that's where we became really close because we had
Speaker 1: the same agent, and he said, we have to do
Speaker 1: our own show. I'm wondering, was there a difference for you? Again,
Speaker 1: without disparaging anybody by any means, was there just a
Speaker 1: difference for you with a theater based cast Kelsey, Hype,
Speaker 1: Pierce and so forth, and the cast of Will and Grace,
Speaker 1: all of them with theater. But I think Deb's de
Speaker 1: deb was just on stage here, Shan's superstage worthy. I
Speaker 1: wor ship him. I worship him. McCormick, Dost Theater and
Speaker 1: Megan Dost Theater, and then other shows you've done where
Speaker 1: there's nary a theater, Dennis and among the bunch. You know,
Speaker 1: there's not many theater credits in the Friends cast a Swimmer, Swimmer,
Speaker 1: he still one out of six looking Glass Theater. Yeah,
Speaker 1: did you find it? So? Do you? You You had a
Speaker 1: different language with those that had a theater background or no,
Speaker 1: the same, No, I you know I would tell them
Speaker 1: in the beginning, this is theater. It's it's an amalgam
Speaker 1: of theater and film, but it's basically theater because you
Speaker 1: have to tell the story to the fifty people watching
Speaker 1: you that night, and so you tell the story to
Speaker 1: them in theater, your reactions have to be bigger because
Speaker 1: to reach the person in the balcony, you can't be subtle.
Speaker 1: That's subtle in theater, you know, you have to have
Speaker 1: to be a little bit exaggerated. I told him, I
Speaker 1: will be on you if you're reactions are too big,
Speaker 1: because this is going out on a television screen, so
Speaker 1: it the irractions can't be as big as they are
Speaker 1: in the theater, but they have to be enough to
Speaker 1: get a laugh, not only with this audience but with
Speaker 1: the audience at home. So the kids were pretty good
Speaker 1: on On Friends. You know, Lisa was in the ground,
Speaker 1: links Jen was amazing, and they just embraced and inhabited
Speaker 1: those characters like it was it was a gold mine. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't think we ever read anybody together. So when
Speaker 1: I got up to six of them down on stage
Speaker 1: and they just fit like a glove, it was, oh
Speaker 1: my god. They were since they were sinked, and I said,
Speaker 1: this is crazy. When I did William Grace, you could
Speaker 1: see that they were so welcoming to your package is leaking.
Speaker 1: You've stole my life. I'm standing there and he says,
Speaker 1: and she says goodbye to me. We closed the drum
Speaker 1: and love with Megan. He says, your package is leaking. Said,
Speaker 1: what can I say? I like her because you brought
Speaker 1: her ice I brought the ice cream, which was your
Speaker 1: package is dripping. Whatever. You know better than I do.
Speaker 1: So when I do that show, they were so welcoming
Speaker 1: and they were so sweet when I did will and
Speaker 1: Grace because they were just so charming, and Megan was
Speaker 1: the one who I always say the same line Megan
Speaker 1: was the one who helped to at least in part,
Speaker 1: broke er my deal with thirty Rock because Megan said,
Speaker 1: you listen as she said, it's fun. I mean I
Speaker 1: never dreamed of doing a sitcom. And when I did
Speaker 1: thirty Rock, I said, I'll do six episodes recurring and
Speaker 1: that's it. And uh, they twisted my arm or whatever
Speaker 1: to do it and and SLRN I worship. But when
Speaker 1: I came to do the show, you see where when
Speaker 1: it comes to tape time much and it comes down
Speaker 1: Cohen behind him much because a lot to say. He
Speaker 1: has a lot of lines and jokes and things that
Speaker 1: his notes and so forth. Is every show the same
Speaker 1: that way or all the show is different in terms
Speaker 1: of the input of the top people. No, I on
Speaker 1: any show I do, anybody can say anything about anything.
Speaker 1: Check your ego at the door. So I mean, if
Speaker 1: you had a problem on Will and Grace, you you
Speaker 1: know you would come to me and say a problem.
Speaker 1: Max is Max. He's genius. You know you deal with
Speaker 1: him because he's so valuable to the show. And one
Speaker 1: of the one of your gifts is that you play
Speaker 1: in the same intensity as the four of them, and
Speaker 1: with it you know we had a lot. We had
Speaker 1: over two hundred and fifty guest stars on Will and Grace,
Speaker 1: and invariably they would come in like they were a star,
Speaker 1: and I would take them aside and say, when you
Speaker 1: rehearsing with this cast, in rehearsal, they do of what
Speaker 1: they can do, and then when you get to the showtime,
Speaker 1: it's a hundred to a hundred and fifty and if
Speaker 1: you don't keep up, you're gonna be on the editing
Speaker 1: room floor. So you you have your your on our show.
Speaker 1: You agreed to her show. You gotta play by the
Speaker 1: rules of the show, and I don't want you to disappear,
Speaker 1: and you have or to come in. You know you
Speaker 1: are happy to be there, happy to be there, also
Speaker 1: larger than life, which is important on that show because
Speaker 1: that show is a fair to keep up literally in
Speaker 1: figurative director James Burrows. If you're enjoying this conversation, be
Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing on the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When we come back, James Burrows tells us why his
Speaker 1: new book is ultimately about kindness. I'm Alec Baldwin and
Speaker 1: this is Here's the thing from my heart Radio. I
Speaker 1: was lucky enough to work with director James Burrows as
Speaker 1: a guest star on Will and Grace. We also work
Speaker 1: together on a pilot starring myself and Kelsey Grammar that
Speaker 1: did not get picked for Serious. With burrows incredible track record,
Speaker 1: I wanted to know if he has a sixth sense
Speaker 1: about which shows will succeed and which won't when I
Speaker 1: read them, I don't know. You know, When I read
Speaker 1: some of these pilots, I thought they were okay and
Speaker 1: I could maybe with a little smoke and mirrors, make
Speaker 1: it go. A few of them I made go, but
Speaker 1: they didn't last very long. But I try not to
Speaker 1: do pilots that I don't think you're going to go.
Speaker 1: But as to that pilot, I was shocked that the
Speaker 1: network didn't. I don't know what was going on in
Speaker 1: the ABC headquarters and watching the show, but you had
Speaker 1: two monumental stars who played you know, it was Nol Coward,
Speaker 1: it was it was Will and Grace. It was that
Speaker 1: kind of intensity to your relationship that was exhilarating to
Speaker 1: me and funny to the audience we had there, and
Speaker 1: I wish I was shocked I don't know if there
Speaker 1: were politics involved or what was involved, but they sure
Speaker 1: don't have a show on ABC that's commensurate with that show. Now,
Speaker 1: you have no doubt. And I'm not just saying this.
Speaker 1: I loved working with you. Everybody loves working with you.
Speaker 1: You say that J Sandrich, J Sanders never put two
Speaker 1: people on a suitcase and starting the cherry orchard. I
Speaker 1: doubt you say J. Sandrids is the king. He's not
Speaker 1: the king. You're the king. And everybody who works with
Speaker 1: you loves you. They love you, and you do this show.
Speaker 1: And were you ever tempted to run out and do
Speaker 1: movies and write scripts and and go into those other
Speaker 1: cord or never? I was never a writer. I I
Speaker 1: ruled that out. I did a pilot for Stephen Botco
Speaker 1: in nine seventies seven called Every Stray Dog and Kid
Speaker 1: single camera pilot Our Jackie Earl Haley back then and uh,
Speaker 1: Bruce White's Uh. I didn't no movies. I did a
Speaker 1: movie called Partners. It was a movie. Aaron Russo came
Speaker 1: to me after taxi and he said, I have this
Speaker 1: movie that written by Francis vai Vert who wrote Lakaja Fall,
Speaker 1: and it was about. It was, it was present and
Speaker 1: the fact that it was about a straight cop and
Speaker 1: a gay cop. This Ryan O'Neill, Yeah, Ryan O'Neill and
Speaker 1: John heard. Can you believe I remember that. I can't
Speaker 1: believe that, Ryan O'Neill, and it was they go undercover
Speaker 1: to solve a murder and it tend to be a
Speaker 1: gay couple and the problem, you know a lot of
Speaker 1: the problems. You wanted Clan Eastwood in their part. You
Speaker 1: wanted a guy, the most macho man in the world,
Speaker 1: having to dress and change and leather, you know, that's
Speaker 1: what you want. You wanted Charlie Bronson, somebody like that,
Speaker 1: and we had at one point we had Peter Regert
Speaker 1: to play the gay cop and wed Sam Elliott, who
Speaker 1: would have been great, but we couldn't get it past
Speaker 1: the studio, so we ended up with Ryan and John.
Speaker 1: What's difficult for me in the movies is number one,
Speaker 1: it takes two years to hear the reaction, and two,
Speaker 1: it was tough for me in the comedy scenes. You
Speaker 1: shoot a master and everybody's kind of funny. Then you
Speaker 1: start to shoot the close up and the magic's gone.
Speaker 1: I did a documentary where, um, what is his name?
Speaker 1: Who's the famous actor that's married to Eva? On I
Speaker 1: miss you? I do, sorry were I would have been
Speaker 1: on your show. I would have stayed on that show
Speaker 1: because I had so much fun. You know something. Let
Speaker 1: me tell you. So, I'm sitting there and I was
Speaker 1: so excited. I thought, my god. Kelsey Grammar calls it.
Speaker 1: He goes, so, how's everything going. I mean, he's like
Speaker 1: such a force of nature. How's everything going? I go,
Speaker 1: it's going, okay, I said, I mean, we're gonna make
Speaker 1: the deal. I mean, I'm not. My whole thing is
Speaker 1: don't get too crazy. And um. He was from a
Speaker 1: different school of negotiating because he was king of TV.
Speaker 1: I His career in TV obviously eclipsed mine. He started big, big,
Speaker 1: big successful shows. But he calls hip and he goes, uh,
Speaker 1: what are you going in that? What are you asking for?
Speaker 1: What are you going in that? And I go, well,
Speaker 1: I thought I would kind of, like, you know, be
Speaker 1: the good partner. And I keep the numbers low seasons
Speaker 1: and one in seasons two, and if we get to
Speaker 1: see so like I did in thirty Rock season four,
Speaker 1: season five, we step it up. And then season five
Speaker 1: and season six, I want to hear them crying all
Speaker 1: the way from the studio. I want to we're gonna
Speaker 1: backload all the money into season five and six, and
Speaker 1: he goes, I'm coming in a blank and he named
Speaker 1: some number that I was like, I was going to
Speaker 1: fall off the chair. And I thought after that, I go, well,
Speaker 1: of course you are. Of course you are. That's probably
Speaker 1: what you got paid in the last season of your
Speaker 1: last show. I mean, he was like this comedy on
Speaker 1: the Mount Rushmore of TV comedy because I was always
Speaker 1: a poll that we didn't pull that off. Uh, you
Speaker 1: prompted me with here about you shoot the master, then
Speaker 1: you go back and you do the close ups and
Speaker 1: sold of gone. I did a film that was a
Speaker 1: documentary about can and um in the tone. Ryan Gosling
Speaker 1: has the most wonderful take on exactly what you said,
Speaker 1: the Arthur Murray esque progression of shooting stuff where it's
Speaker 1: like do it again, do it again. Now we're gonna
Speaker 1: come in closer and do it again, and do it again,
Speaker 1: but make it fresh and do the same thing you
Speaker 1: did again close up, you know, mid shot, cowboy tight
Speaker 1: e c U. And he said to me, it's just
Speaker 1: like it's a fucking nightmare. But in his language, we
Speaker 1: got a Gosling on film now. I'm assuming because you
Speaker 1: are a legend in television comedy that you know. Lord
Speaker 1: Michael said, networks the best. I said why. He said,
Speaker 1: why it goes because it demands more of you. You
Speaker 1: can't say funk on the network. You have to say
Speaker 1: funk without saying funk. You can't go blue. So you've
Speaker 1: got to be smarter, clever, better. And when I turn
Speaker 1: on TV now and I'm on streaming service, as somebody says,
Speaker 1: Susie was late for work today. Fuck, everybody laughs because
Speaker 1: they're saying, oh my god, they said, fuck, you've never
Speaker 1: gone to a streaming service. I did one show for
Speaker 1: Chuck Laurie that was on with Kathy Bates called Disjointed.
Speaker 1: She owned a pot shop and I think it lasted
Speaker 1: twelve episodes something like that. I had a great had
Speaker 1: a great time working with her. She's what a pro.
Speaker 1: And but I'm sure you've been asked to come and
Speaker 1: maybe they tried to seduce you to come and do.
Speaker 1: They don't do a lot of three camera, multi camera shows,
Speaker 1: but even single camera for them, I'm not good. I'm
Speaker 1: I like, I like to get home early, as you
Speaker 1: know that the multi camera schedule is the greatest in
Speaker 1: the world. And you're talking about what Lauren I I
Speaker 1: corroborate what he says because the euphemism is funnier than
Speaker 1: the actual work. On Will and Grace, I mean Karen leaking, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: package is leaking or uh, you know, Karen had nine
Speaker 1: different euphemisms for vagina. You know, so euphemism harder to
Speaker 1: think of. It was it is funny your stuff? Why
Speaker 1: write a book? Meaning it's like, doesn't your work speak
Speaker 1: for itself when you wanted to write a book? Why?
Speaker 1: I have all these stories that are that are in
Speaker 1: the book and I tell them to you know, I
Speaker 1: look for new friends so I can tell him the
Speaker 1: stories because I have to held all my old friends
Speaker 1: the same stories. And it was COVID. It was the
Speaker 1: beginning of COVID, and my wife, Debbie came and said
Speaker 1: to me, you got to write a book, what she
Speaker 1: had been saying for the past ten years. And I said,
Speaker 1: I don't have a hook. I don't have an angle
Speaker 1: on a book. She said, please stop sitting around, write
Speaker 1: a book. So I called my agent, who hooked me
Speaker 1: up with Eddie Friedfeld, who's my co author, and I
Speaker 1: started telling him the stories. He had not heard any
Speaker 1: of the stories, and he helped shape the book. And
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of it's a lot of my stories,
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit of a tutorial in how
Speaker 1: to make a show or what's what's good for a show.
Speaker 1: I talk about a little. I talked about the cameras
Speaker 1: a little bit, not enough to bore Layman, but so
Speaker 1: that that's what I did it, and I had a
Speaker 1: great time doing it. The book is directed by James Burrows.
Speaker 1: I want to tell you, and I love the opportunity
Speaker 1: to say, is I'm glad you came in person. I'm
Speaker 1: happy to be here. And I want to tell you
Speaker 1: that the times I did that show with you, you
Speaker 1: were so kind to me, and you create an environment
Speaker 1: where it was fun. I was heartbroken when it was over,
Speaker 1: and you're so graceful and gracious and smart, and it
Speaker 1: really was just the joy of my life to do
Speaker 1: those shows with you. Even of our pilot was the Challenger,
Speaker 1: it blew up on the launch pad and we didn't
Speaker 1: make it. But my book is about kindness. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can see it. It flows through there because if
Speaker 1: if you have a set where everybody is nice to
Speaker 1: one another and everybody likes dare I say, loves one another,
Speaker 1: that's going to come across the screen. You know, the
Speaker 1: fish thinks from the head. So if you have a
Speaker 1: star who's counting lines, that's not a happy experience. So
Speaker 1: I don't work on shows like that. I work on
Speaker 1: shows where I have great actors that can only make
Speaker 1: me look better, and I treat them with the utmost kindness.
Speaker 1: I never see Hyde Pierce that much in uh in life,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to see him. I'm willing to bet
Speaker 1: that you did Frasier and you've never done anything remotely
Speaker 1: like that again, because why bother. It's never going to
Speaker 1: be better than that. You did that great show with
Speaker 1: a great cast, great writing, great directing. I mean anything anybody,
Speaker 1: the group you might work with, it would be a letdown,
Speaker 1: I would say a lot of times. You know, if
Speaker 1: people are on a hit sitcom, they think they can
Speaker 1: they think they can do it again. It's hard, you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard. There's so many there's so many forces out
Speaker 1: there that wants you to fail, and it's sad. But
Speaker 1: I've had a great run and so have you young man. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna my last line is going to be what
Speaker 1: would you know about failure? That's my line for you.
Speaker 1: What would you know about failure? James Burrows, You've had
Speaker 1: the least amount of failure of anybody, know. I've had failure,
Speaker 1: maybe a tablespoonful in an ocean of success. So enough
Speaker 1: of my tired metaphors. Thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, director James Burrows. This episode was
Speaker 1: recorded at c DM Studios in New York City. Were
Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our
Speaker 1: engineers Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you
Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio.