Speaker 1: Call It what It Is with Jessica Capshaw and Camille Luddington,
Speaker 1: an iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 2: So everyone listening, I hope this is I'm gonna give
Speaker 2: it a whirl.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me what you think.
Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, Hello, Call It Crew.
Speaker 2: Was that good? That was pretty good?
Speaker 3: You know what, It's got.
Speaker 1: A little groove in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1: I want to shake it up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm feeling kind of like sexy all of a sudden.
Speaker 2: Thanks for letting me try that on for size.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I think now it's it's imperative that
Speaker 1: we take turns.
Speaker 2: Maybe we do. I don't know. It's hard, it's yours,
Speaker 2: it's yours. No, it's ours, it's yours. Well, this one,
Speaker 2: this episode, Call It Crew, I'm gonna talk about some
Speaker 2: thing that I actually have not really talked about before,
Speaker 2: definitely have not talked about in detail, and we wanted
Speaker 2: to make a special episode about it and have someone
Speaker 2: on that was an expert because I have since discovered
Speaker 2: that there are millions and millions and millions of people
Speaker 2: also diagnosed with this and it felt very lonely when
Speaker 2: I first realized I had it. And it's okay, So
Speaker 2: we're just gonna we're gonna talk about Jess.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, they're gonna have a lot of guesses.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be really traumatic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's not. Okay. Two ish three, maybe twoish
Speaker 2: years ago, I was watching Ghostbusters and there are a
Speaker 2: lot of silent parts in it. And I turned to
Speaker 2: Matt and I said, is the TV buzzing? I was
Speaker 2: very confused and he was like no. I'm like, do
Speaker 2: you hear that ringing in your ear? And he was like, no,
Speaker 2: I don't. And long story short, I realized that I
Speaker 2: I had something called Tonight's which is and I still
Speaker 2: have it to this day, which is a constant noise.
Speaker 2: Actually I don't have it. You can have it in
Speaker 2: one ear or the other ear. I only have it
Speaker 2: in my right ear. I have it right now. I
Speaker 2: can always hear it. And it was very distressing to
Speaker 2: me because I realized, after a few days, oh, I
Speaker 2: still hear this constantly. I'm not sure this is something
Speaker 2: that's going to go away. And I have to say
Speaker 2: that I was really devastated over it. I heard it
Speaker 2: very loudly a lot. I found it very hard to parent.
Speaker 2: I was so self conscious. I felt like I was
Speaker 2: going a little crazy, and I ended up doing a
Speaker 2: hearing test and finding out that I also had some
Speaker 2: hearing loss. Apparently I am have the hearing of someone
Speaker 2: who is more like sixty years old and found that
Speaker 2: news very distressing. And then I was told that Tonight's
Speaker 2: could be caused by some sort of hearing loss I
Speaker 2: don't need right now. I don't need a hearing aid,
Speaker 2: although I'm sure I may need one at some point,
Speaker 2: maybe in my forties, and I'm going to rock that,
Speaker 2: by the way. Everyone but that it could also be
Speaker 2: caused by a tumor, so I had to go for
Speaker 2: an MRI. It was a whole thing where they had
Speaker 2: to make sure that I didn't have a tumor and
Speaker 2: I did not have a tumor on my scan, and
Speaker 2: then I had to learn that this was something that
Speaker 2: wasn't going to go away and I had to live
Speaker 2: with it. And it's taken me some time, and I've
Speaker 2: learned that after the pandemic especially, But I want to
Speaker 2: ask our amazing expert on about this. That more and
Speaker 2: more young people quote unquote have come forward with saying
Speaker 2: that they have Tonightis and being diagnosed with it, and
Speaker 2: I want to talk about it, because honestly, it was
Speaker 2: not something that I knew a lot about and I
Speaker 2: kind of want to get into it and for anyone
Speaker 2: listen that has vertigo also can be another symptom of it.
Speaker 2: I just think it would be really nice to feel
Speaker 2: comforted by knowledge and stories.
Speaker 1: This has never come up in our friendship, only when
Speaker 1: we started working on the podcast, and obviously multi layer
Speaker 1: aspects of who we are come to light. And another
Speaker 1: one of the producers on the show also has experienced
Speaker 1: this and it was incredibly interesting to hear you two
Speaker 1: talk about it the way that you reported how you felt,
Speaker 1: what you felt when you felt it, and then also
Speaker 1: obviously just the bigness of it that I had. I
Speaker 1: had no idea what was happening in your life. So
Speaker 1: today we have an expert. Her name is Joey Ramenie
Speaker 1: and she is a trained vestibular audiologist and a national
Speaker 1: best selling author. She is also the founder and director
Speaker 1: of Seeking Balance International. She supports people from all over
Speaker 1: the world on how to change their brain body with
Speaker 1: the neuroplasticity recovery process. She is from Melbourne and she
Speaker 1: is here today with us to discuss all and I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to learn more this. I feel like this
Speaker 1: is a learning of journey.
Speaker 2: Hi Joey, Hello Joey, Hi, Hi, welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2: Call it what it is. We are so excited to
Speaker 2: have you. I'm personally so excited to have you on.
Speaker 3: I'm delighted to be invited. So sunny Australia, warm vibes.
Speaker 2: So I want to dive in a little bit because
Speaker 2: when I was first diagnosed with tonight is what I
Speaker 2: was told was that the sound that I was hearing
Speaker 2: is not a sound that actually really exists and is
Speaker 2: something my brain. This is what I was told, but
Speaker 2: I don't know, was just something my brain was making up,
Speaker 2: basically imagining.
Speaker 3: There's so many different ways to describe tinatus. It is
Speaker 3: it's a sound that is generated inside of our body
Speaker 3: that nobody else can hear. And it could be sounds
Speaker 3: and mechanically generated like if you think about just even
Speaker 3: popping your elbow or your knee, so it could be
Speaker 3: inside the ear. There's tiny little bones and muscles, so
Speaker 3: that is a type of tinatus, which is like a
Speaker 3: mechanical generated sound. But what you're referring to there is
Speaker 3: there's other biological events happening. So every single moment of
Speaker 3: the day, there's a lot of neurons firing in terms
Speaker 3: of our thoughts, our emotions, just making sense of the world,
Speaker 3: you know, sensing the wind and the pressure of the
Speaker 3: chair or the clothes we're wearing. So all of that
Speaker 3: neurological activity also has the potential to create kind of
Speaker 3: sound in the brain, in the auditory cortex that we
Speaker 3: become aware of. And that's why often when we're experiencing
Speaker 3: chronic stress, so we're just really busy, we can hear
Speaker 3: this white static in our head and it's like the
Speaker 3: brain is like fizzing and buzzing like a disco So
Speaker 3: it's real, it's happening. The question of whether we hear
Speaker 3: it or not I put down to this filter system,
Speaker 3: so the brain is actually looking for okay, is this
Speaker 3: useful information? Is a boring not relevant? So if I
Speaker 3: hear the washing machine or the fridge whirring, often we
Speaker 3: filter that out because we just know it's not making
Speaker 3: our life better by noticing those sounds. I often think
Speaker 3: about the body sensations as like little messages from our soul.
Speaker 3: You know. The body is kind of the sacred filter
Speaker 3: as we're living through this cosmic life, and the body
Speaker 3: is essentially saying, hey, you might want to pause and
Speaker 3: slow down. I've got some things to digest, you know,
Speaker 3: I've got some difficult conversations to have, or I've got
Speaker 3: this stock take I need to do in life. So
Speaker 3: sometimes I think the tinatus can actually be the body's
Speaker 3: way of drawing us inwards and asking us to pause
Speaker 3: and slow down a little bit for any myriad number
Speaker 3: of reasons. But it can also just be a false alarm.
Speaker 3: So the sound comes in, we get a shock, and
Speaker 3: then someone freaks us out and says, oh my god,
Speaker 3: you can't cure it. You're gonna have it forever. And
Speaker 3: then that just generates its own little panic cycle, which
Speaker 3: means it slips through the filter. We keep noticing it,
Speaker 3: and we keep going, oh my god, is it there?
Speaker 3: Is it? There?
Speaker 2: Is it there?
Speaker 3: And it's kind of just a false alarm cycle that
Speaker 3: we have to unwind.
Speaker 2: That's what I when I first had it, I was
Speaker 2: definitely looking for it all the time because I was
Speaker 2: hoping that it had gone. I was hoping that had gone.
Speaker 2: And a doctor told me that it really helped me.
Speaker 2: He said, listen at some point, you will hear it
Speaker 2: a lot less because it's like when you wear clothes,
Speaker 2: a sensation of clothes on your body. You don't feel
Speaker 2: it anymore, right, You're not looking for that sensation, and
Speaker 2: it will be something that your senses sort of filter out.
Speaker 2: So I can hear it right now, but it's much
Speaker 2: much quieter, and through my day I can't really I
Speaker 2: don't pay attention to it anymore. However, I know for
Speaker 2: other people there are different versions of these sounds, right,
Speaker 2: So I've heard that sometimes it can sound like a
Speaker 2: worshing sound, and my tonights is it sounds like that.
Speaker 2: You know when you leave a concert and it's like
Speaker 2: that high kind of just you've probably had that feeling
Speaker 2: you leave a loud concert and there's like it. It
Speaker 2: almost sounds like yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: So, as the person sort of on the outside of
Speaker 1: this for a second, I just want to catch myself
Speaker 1: up and maybe catch other people listening up. Can we
Speaker 1: just take a moment to go to the origin story
Speaker 1: of it, because obviously, Camilla, you had a life before
Speaker 1: it and then there was a recognition of its presence.
Speaker 1: So tell me about that.
Speaker 2: This was very soon after the pandemic. I had a
Speaker 2: young child, and I, you know, we've talked on the
Speaker 2: pot about stress and anxiety and all those things. When
Speaker 2: I'm hearing you talk and it's about like a sign
Speaker 2: at your body, maybe like hey, stop, there's something going on.
Speaker 2: I think that I was diagnosed with some hearing loss
Speaker 2: right because I had to go have a I talked
Speaker 2: about how I had to go have a hearing test
Speaker 2: and I have the hearing of like a sixty year old.
Speaker 2: So I understand that it could be purely from hearing loss. However,
Speaker 2: I do think that it was also triggered by stress
Speaker 2: for me. And I heard that more young people were
Speaker 2: diagnosed with tonight as after the pandemic. Is that true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many factors at play, but yes, and
Speaker 3: also chronic dizziness, which is the other. So these are
Speaker 3: both invisible symptoms generated from the inner ear. So that's
Speaker 3: kind of my geeky realm. So chronic dizziness, chronic brain fog,
Speaker 3: even visual spotting and dotting like from using lots of screens,
Speaker 3: from lots of zoom. And yeah, all the stresses of
Speaker 3: the pandemic and the lockdowns and homeschooling and just the
Speaker 3: compounding layers of life demands. I think it genuinely has
Speaker 3: impacted our sensory system and our brain's capacity to juggle everything.
Speaker 2: I was told that it is not curable, and that
Speaker 2: is what was very maddening to me early on. What
Speaker 2: would you say about that?
Speaker 3: Well, I can actually feel my blood boiling, like, this
Speaker 3: is why I have seeking balance and do what I do,
Speaker 3: because it's it's unfair to say that it's not true,
Speaker 3: it's inaccurate. As these beautiful biological beings that we are,
Speaker 3: we are constantly in dynamic change like no, like we
Speaker 3: literally have cells dying and replenishing on three seven ten
Speaker 3: day cycles. We are being remade all the time and reborn.
Speaker 3: So nothing is static, nothing is forever. And the sounds
Speaker 3: that our body makes and the way we interpret them
Speaker 3: is such a dance. It is such a maneuverable, beautiful
Speaker 3: dance that we participate in. So if I concentrate on
Speaker 3: my tenetus all the time, if I worry about it,
Speaker 3: if I focus on it, if I pay attention to it,
Speaker 3: my brain actually says, Okay, Team Joey's really interested in this.
Speaker 3: She's studying it all the time, she's talking about it,
Speaker 3: she's thinking about it. So let's give her more neurological
Speaker 3: attention to this sound. We'll give her more neurons, We'll
Speaker 3: give her more, and then she'll be able to better
Speaker 3: study it. So I'm actually participating in the tinatus sound
Speaker 3: by directing all of that focus and attention, and I
Speaker 3: get that biological dance. It responds to me and gives
Speaker 3: me more. I've had tinatus by the way, so I
Speaker 3: get it. On the other hand, what I do with
Speaker 3: my rock steadic community and people who are using neuroplasticity
Speaker 3: and this holistic way of approaching it is that we
Speaker 3: understand that, Okay, the body is talking to me, but
Speaker 3: it's usually not about the tinatus itself. You can think
Speaker 3: about it like the smoke and the fire. So if
Speaker 3: your house is on fire and you're just obsessed about
Speaker 3: the smoke, you miss the fire. So underneath the tinatus
Speaker 3: there's usually a conversation, which could be am I actually
Speaker 3: getting enough time to myself? Am I prioritizing everybody else's needs?
Speaker 3: And I'm falling way back second? You know, am I
Speaker 3: just the cook? Am I the taxi? Am I? Am
Speaker 3: I in the right job? Am I in the right marriage?
Speaker 3: So sometimes it's about really pausing and saying, am I
Speaker 3: actually getting my physical, mental, emotional, spiritual needs met? And
Speaker 3: even more importantly, do I know what brings me enjoyment
Speaker 3: and pleasure? Am I actually telling my brain, hey, focus
Speaker 3: on all those moments I feel grounded? Because if I'm
Speaker 3: very much paying attention to my feet, am I pulvis
Speaker 3: and dropping into what feels nice and comfortable? I get
Speaker 3: more of that neurological activity. So I'm shaping my internal
Speaker 3: experience of the day by how I'm in communication with
Speaker 3: my body. So this mind body very intimate connection. On
Speaker 3: a side note, the mind body is essentially the one
Speaker 3: thing there is no disconnect. So yeah, it's about really
Speaker 3: participating in how we are shaping and crafting the interior
Speaker 3: landscape of our mind body neurology. So building these sensory
Speaker 3: maps is exactly what I do for a living. So yes,
Speaker 3: it's changeable. I don't actually think tentatus needs a cure.
Speaker 3: I think it comes and goes at the perfect time
Speaker 3: for us in life. And it's not actually a disease
Speaker 3: or a diagnosis per se. I would say it's more
Speaker 3: of a healthy biological event that we participate in.
Speaker 2: I have so many questions so when I first could
Speaker 2: hear it, I found it so distressing that if somebody
Speaker 2: had told me trying not to concentrate on that, it
Speaker 2: was all that I felt like a vicious cycle of like,
Speaker 2: don't concentrate on that. Now you're hearing it. Now you're
Speaker 2: making it worse your approach to it. I know, I'm
Speaker 2: sure it's you can't go through it all obviously on
Speaker 2: just a podcast. But what are some of the first
Speaker 2: things you do to help people with it?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, first and foremost, honestly, I think it's important
Speaker 3: to freak out and focus on it and actually go
Speaker 3: through that rite of passage because in essence, we all
Speaker 3: do that, all of us, me too. So just to
Speaker 3: really acknowledge and honor that it's okay to focus on it,
Speaker 3: worry about it, all of that is a sign that
Speaker 3: I care about myself, that it's all coming back to
Speaker 3: well being in self care. So different people will spend
Speaker 3: shorter or longer amounts of time in that phace. Some
Speaker 3: people will literally spend eight years, others are week and
Speaker 3: they move through that really quickly and they're like, Okay,
Speaker 3: what can I do? So the second bit would be
Speaker 3: actually get accurate information you know, don't necessarily believe your doctors.
Speaker 3: What they were teaching us in university twenty thirty forty
Speaker 3: years ago is different to what we know today. So
Speaker 3: there is there are myths.
Speaker 2: What are some of those myths that you could that
Speaker 2: you can't cure it? Okay?
Speaker 3: Is not necessarily associated with hearing loss. You can have
Speaker 3: tinatus and absolutely perfect hearing. You can have terrible hearing
Speaker 3: loss and no tinatus. They're independent events.
Speaker 2: If I was if the tenatus is from or tonights
Speaker 2: is from hearing loss though, can it still be cured?
Speaker 3: Yes? The tinatus itself is a neurological signal. So your
Speaker 3: neurons have got these little fingertips that are sending electro
Speaker 3: chemicals along these neural pathways literally through your body and brain.
Speaker 3: It's not just the brain, it's not just the years,
Speaker 3: it's the entire system. And one of those neural patterns
Speaker 3: or neural maps is generating a sound. And what happens
Speaker 3: is when we change our relationship to the sound, which
Speaker 3: is part of the rock steady process. I walk people
Speaker 3: through and it's not straightforward, you know, it's the full package, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual.
Speaker 3: It takes time. It takes work, but as we change
Speaker 3: our relationship to that neural map, we can essentially make
Speaker 3: it louder or make it softer. And we're in the
Speaker 3: driver's seat. So right now I can actually tune into
Speaker 3: my tenetus and like if I want to hear it,
Speaker 3: I can or I cannot. So I begin to actually
Speaker 3: be the queen of my kingdom, and I'm choosing how
Speaker 3: I shape the internal landscape. So a lot of it's
Speaker 3: about getting that accurate information about what is it, how
Speaker 3: am I participating in what's going on between my brain
Speaker 3: and body, and where do I have choice and where
Speaker 3: do I actually have to surrender because there's nothing I
Speaker 3: can do, so that the letting go and the surrender
Speaker 3: is certainly equally important. We can't control it all.
Speaker 2: I know from reading that some people have it so loud.
Speaker 2: I've heard that people it sounds almost like a jet
Speaker 2: taking off. Yeah, So for the people that have it
Speaker 2: that loud, that extreme all the time, because it's not
Speaker 2: how mine has manifested, are you able to help people
Speaker 2: that have had it that extra Yes?
Speaker 3: The answer is yes, And part of it is we
Speaker 3: need to get back into the body. Right If we
Speaker 3: focus heavily on whatever's going on between the ears, we
Speaker 3: do end up keeping ourselves in a nervous system state
Speaker 3: of flight freeze or fam so we end up in
Speaker 3: these trauma looping and from that place it's really hard
Speaker 3: to use neuroplasticity to disengage the tinator's signal and build
Speaker 3: a new map. So getting into the body and body
Speaker 3: scanning is really really primal. We have to get back
Speaker 3: into our feet, into our legs, into our pulverse, and
Speaker 3: essentially move the attention and focus away from above the shoulders.
Speaker 3: So that can be really really nourishing and supportive, especially
Speaker 3: if people do have significant traumas, and the tinatus is
Speaker 3: like a byproduct of that. So getting back into the
Speaker 3: body is really important. So that was what we call
Speaker 3: bottom up therapies, sensing and feeling in the body itself.
Speaker 3: Top down aspects is when we go okay. So I
Speaker 3: have a lived example of this at a really really
Speaker 3: busy day, I think it was pre Christmas shopping Da
Speaker 3: da da da dada. Came home, just crashed out on
Speaker 3: the couch and was like whoa super loud tenatus, like
Speaker 3: you know, nine out of ten, and it sounded like
Speaker 3: I was hiking in Tasmania in this incredible forest and
Speaker 3: I'd found a little tin shed and there was really
Speaker 3: really really strong rain, really heavy rain, and I'm in
Speaker 3: a tiny shed. The rain is pounding down on this
Speaker 3: like corrugated tin iron roof and it's extremely loud. So
Speaker 3: the top down process there was rather than freak out,
Speaker 3: I lay on the couch and visualized hiking and being
Speaker 3: in the sanctuary of this little tin shed while there's
Speaker 3: a torrential downpour. So what that means is I had
Speaker 3: emotionally associated the sound with a nature hike and a
Speaker 3: sanctuary and a pause. And so with that emotional association
Speaker 3: with the actual sound, I'm not pushing it away. I'm
Speaker 3: not trying to get rid of it. I'm actually welcoming
Speaker 3: it in and creating a creative imaginal space where my
Speaker 3: body has a place. So it's like it's bringing in
Speaker 3: that sense of Okay, this sound belongs here right now,
Speaker 3: and before you know it, you're rough daydreaming, you forget
Speaker 3: about it, and it just fizzles into the background. So
Speaker 3: we have these skills and tools that we can start
Speaker 3: to employ and use once we're not really really lodged
Speaker 3: in that place between the ears and the midbrain where
Speaker 3: we're stuck in the fight flight freeze form trauma patterns.
Speaker 3: That's a really really difficult place to be and the
Speaker 3: you know, the longer we're there, the more we get.
Speaker 3: I think the consequences of consequences through the chronic stress
Speaker 3: patterns and cycles, which actually goes beyond just poor digestion
Speaker 3: and sort of skin issues and into relationship breakdowns, difficulty
Speaker 3: with Korea, like not unable to attend work. You know,
Speaker 3: there really are so many debilitating consequences if these chronic
Speaker 3: and visible symptoms are not attended to with holistic care.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not just about is and people are
Speaker 3: not making it up. They are real neural signals that
Speaker 3: need real neural support.
Speaker 2: I love this conversation so much because one thing that
Speaker 2: really helped me is I was trying to describe the
Speaker 2: noise to my husband one time because I was like,
Speaker 2: I just wish you could hear it and just experience
Speaker 2: this for a second. And in trying to describe it,
Speaker 2: I said, you know what it sounds like when it's
Speaker 2: really loud, It sounds like there's crickets outside at night. Well,
Speaker 2: I actually love that sound in the evening, sitting on
Speaker 2: a porch when I, you know, go visit family in Kentucky,
Speaker 2: and I love that sound. It's a very soothing sound
Speaker 2: to me. And the second I said that, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: it's actually no I can kind of work with that.
Speaker 2: And so sometimes when I'm stressed out and I hear it,
Speaker 2: I always I kind of think, how you thought, like, okay,
Speaker 2: the rain and the shed, I think to myself, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm on the porch outside it's a crickets at night,
Speaker 2: and it changed my relationship a little bit with the
Speaker 2: sound itself. I have noticed, and I want to know
Speaker 2: your opinion on this. I've noticed certain things that I
Speaker 2: feel like can make it worse, But I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's just in my head. For example, lack of
Speaker 2: sleep the next morning, if I drink too much alcohol
Speaker 2: the night before, and if I eat too much salt,
Speaker 2: And I don't know if those are things that you
Speaker 2: have heard people say before. I'm sure you probably have.
Speaker 2: But are there literal things that we're ingesting in our
Speaker 2: body sleep? I can see how that relates to the stress,
Speaker 2: but are things that we're ingesting in our body that
Speaker 2: can make it worse or is that just me feeling
Speaker 2: that way imagined.
Speaker 3: You're absolutely noticing things, and everybody is different, like no
Speaker 3: true human beings on the planet are wide in the
Speaker 3: same way. So it's really important that people are given
Speaker 3: this self authority and self permission to go. Actually, this
Speaker 3: is how my body is responding to that caffeine or
Speaker 3: you know that high process food, or you know this
Speaker 3: type of hydration and sleep needs. Like actually learning to
Speaker 3: respond to the cues of the body and take ownership over. Okay,
Speaker 3: and maybe different to other people, but I am noticing
Speaker 3: I need nine hours sleep at night, or I function
Speaker 3: so much better if I just get up at six
Speaker 3: am every day and that becomes a consistent routine for me.
Speaker 3: So yes, what you're noticing is very real and true,
Speaker 3: and it will change, you know, as we go through
Speaker 3: different phases of life, some of those things won't have
Speaker 3: effect anymore. So again, we're dynamic, we are changing, but
Speaker 3: learning to be and call and response between my inner
Speaker 3: world and what I'm sensing and feeling, which which you know,
Speaker 3: I'm a bit of a neural nerd, but everything really
Speaker 3: is a neural signal, whether it's an emotion, whether it's
Speaker 3: a memory and intuition, a sensation a thought. These are
Speaker 3: all neurons bouncing around through the body. That's our inner world,
Speaker 3: that's our inner landscapes and inner architecture. And then the
Speaker 3: outer world is our conversations, our friends, whether the wind,
Speaker 3: the food, alcohol. We're actually learning to dance between the
Speaker 3: inner and outer world and become really fluent in that
Speaker 3: and to fully participate so that we're a feeling safe
Speaker 3: and robust and connected more often, and b we're noticing
Speaker 3: when okay, this is actually taking my energy. Okay, this
Speaker 3: is my boundaries. You know, we're starting to learn where
Speaker 3: do I end and where do you begin? And I
Speaker 3: think in the modern day world, we are literally drowning
Speaker 3: in data. We're drowning in all of these outer world inputs.
Speaker 3: We're losing ourselves and we're merging with other people and
Speaker 3: other places and other politics, and it's really really frightening.
Speaker 3: And I think to survive, we numb ourselves go grab
Speaker 3: you know, more food, or more coffee, or more alcohol,
Speaker 3: or go shopping. Like we really move to outer world
Speaker 3: distractions to cope, and the body samata sizes and that's
Speaker 3: when we get our tenetus in our dizziness and our
Speaker 3: brain fog and the chronic fatigue that you know, you
Speaker 3: just wake up Monday morning with dread because you've got
Speaker 3: to do the whole week again. So this idea of
Speaker 3: cleaning out our inner world outer world messiness and having
Speaker 3: those stronger boundaries that brings us into sovereignty, that brings
Speaker 3: us into self authority, self permission. So yeah, the short
Speaker 3: answer is yes, what you're noticing is real, and just
Speaker 3: because it's real for you doesn't mean it's real for
Speaker 3: the next person. So again, really honoring uniqueness, individuality, and
Speaker 3: I think having sas you know, having a little bit
Speaker 3: of that badass, unapologetic this is my body, this is
Speaker 3: my life.
Speaker 1: Oh she's got that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's got that.
Speaker 1: So I'm listening to you, and first of all, I'm
Speaker 1: it's like intoxicating. I'm like, I'm watching you and I'm
Speaker 1: listening to you dark and I'm like yes and yes
Speaker 1: and yes.
Speaker 2: Well this is reminding me of when you had your
Speaker 2: eye twitch and you were talking. Yeah, this is what
Speaker 2: this is reminding me about. I think you have to
Speaker 2: repeat the story so that Joy can hear it.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I again, Kimila and I a joke
Speaker 1: or do we that we like to bring it back
Speaker 1: to how we've expect something. And since I'm on the
Speaker 1: outside of this little diad, I got an eye twitch.
Speaker 1: And it was during a time where I think that
Speaker 1: my body was saying.
Speaker 3: Hold the fuck up, Yeah, you need.
Speaker 1: To calm down, you need to chill out, you need well, actually, honestly,
Speaker 1: more than anything, I think, it was like I need
Speaker 1: your attention. You're not paying attention to me, and I wasn't.
Speaker 1: I was like, just keep swamming, just keep swamming. I've
Speaker 1: got this, We've got this, and to keep going. And
Speaker 1: I would stand there talking to someone while I was
Speaker 1: trying to get something done, and I would be holding my.
Speaker 2: Eyelid and because it lasted a year for her, it
Speaker 2: lasted a year.
Speaker 1: And people would be like, why are you holding your
Speaker 1: eye lid? And they're like, well, I just it's not
Speaker 1: you can't see it, but I can. So is that something?
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 1: My guess is that all those neuropathways are obviously looking
Speaker 1: to different. We have a news that that's another form
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 3: Yes, And like this trim twitching, jerking, they're actually like
Speaker 3: little ways the neural system is expelling and discharging a
Speaker 3: pent up neurological energy. So it's like, so the next
Speaker 3: book I'm writing is actually talking about how we digest
Speaker 3: and metabolize and excreet all the invisible data that we're
Speaker 3: taking in. So as we go about our day, we're
Speaker 3: taking in like politics, judgments, assumptions, cultural nuance, thoughts. You know,
Speaker 3: even if like someone was to give you the evil
Speaker 3: eye and give you a bit of a smirk so
Speaker 3: that no words passed, but there is a message they're
Speaker 3: coming like in all of this human relating, and we
Speaker 3: have to take that in and digest it. And so
Speaker 3: the body's literally riddled with all of these neurological traffic
Speaker 3: jams and undigested life experience where we haven't been able
Speaker 3: to biochemically complete what we've just experienced in the day.
Speaker 3: This is when people come to me because they're smaticizing,
Speaker 3: and I help them learn to integrate and excrete. So
Speaker 3: it's not actually all about tinatus and dizziness. It's the
Speaker 3: whole human experience.
Speaker 1: So only because I'm trying to also be a person
Speaker 1: who I mean, who doesn't semat size? Will you please define?
Speaker 3: That's the word we use when the symptomatology is coming up.
Speaker 3: So the soma, the sematics the body. So the physical
Speaker 3: body is beginning to say okay, shoulders tenching or eyelids twitching,
Speaker 3: and this is the body doing what it's yeah to
Speaker 3: complete its biochemical processes.
Speaker 1: So in my experience, my body has told me things
Speaker 1: that my mind hasn't. So for me, a sematic response
Speaker 1: would be I've talked about this before. When I'm in
Speaker 1: a difficult conversation, when I'm nervous, when I'm just feeling
Speaker 1: challenged on some level, I can instantly feel my body
Speaker 1: temperature rise and I get armpit sweat super cute. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, it's charming. It's a really lovely part of me.
Speaker 1: You can all just imagine me with my armpit sweat
Speaker 1: rings right now. But I instantly start sweating. And it's
Speaker 1: how I know, because sometimes my mind is like, again,
Speaker 1: just keep swimming, you've got this. I'm an opt I
Speaker 1: skew optimistic. I've dealt with a lot in my life.
Speaker 1: I've kept going. I know I can, or at least
Speaker 1: I believe I can. I think and there and therefore
Speaker 1: I am. But my body, it's it's it's it's actually
Speaker 1: a weird. Obviously, it's like an inverse of some people's challenge.
Speaker 1: Some people are like, I can't do it. I can't
Speaker 1: do it. I can't do it. I'm like, I can
Speaker 1: do it, and then my body is like nope, nope,
Speaker 1: something's wrong.
Speaker 3: It's just white knuckle to it. Make it happen. The
Speaker 3: body's giving us that feedback loop, the Bayo feedback loop.
Speaker 3: And you know, I just think you can't do life wrong.
Speaker 3: It's not even about you know, I don't know, tuning
Speaker 3: in and living perfectly. It's like when your body's really
Speaker 3: going to talk to you, the pain gets higher. Like
Speaker 3: pain is the body's most efficient form of communications. So
Speaker 3: we do what we can until we reach that threshold
Speaker 3: where we're like whoa, whoa, this is too much. And
Speaker 3: that's usually when people come to me. But yeah, this
Speaker 3: trip tremoring, jerking, twitching, that can actually be the body's
Speaker 3: way of, in a healthy context, releasing neural excess energy
Speaker 3: that doesn't need to live in the body. And that's
Speaker 3: why actually shaking it out and dancing and physical activity
Speaker 3: is so important for our health to complete some of
Speaker 3: those biochemical processes.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because we were talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: not that a tremor is painful but that there are
Speaker 1: these ways that our body experiences pain or discomfort and
Speaker 1: it's actually got purpose. It's a signal. Yeah, it's letting
Speaker 1: you know exactly.
Speaker 3: I would say every single thought, sensation, story, intuition, image,
Speaker 3: all of it. I think all of it has its place.
Speaker 3: And I really encourage people and teach people to pause
Speaker 3: as often as they can, body scan and actually take
Speaker 3: notice of what's going on in my body and multiple
Speaker 3: times a day. And I call that collecting the warm data,
Speaker 3: Like inside your body is the warm data that is
Speaker 3: giving you that feedback. It's like the dashboard of your car.
Speaker 3: It's always available to you. And then the cold data
Speaker 3: is from outside of us. That's the outside looking in.
Speaker 3: That's your test results, your blood tests, your MRI scans,
Speaker 3: that's all the cold data. The warm data is that
Speaker 3: intuitive data that's in the body, and we sense it
Speaker 3: and feel it, and we get better and better and
Speaker 3: better at that with practice and support, and in the
Speaker 3: beginning we're just like, oh my god, it's just overwhelming.
Speaker 3: I can't make sense of anything inside of me. But
Speaker 3: it does honestly become much more fluid and fluid.
Speaker 2: One of the things I was told right at the
Speaker 2: very beginning was to have white noise on in every
Speaker 2: room so I could start to sort of tune it out.
Speaker 2: Is that something that you would recommend for people listening?
Speaker 2: What I'm just thinking, because why I'm asking is it
Speaker 2: would be easier, much easier for me now to go
Speaker 2: through a program that helps me. In the beginning, it
Speaker 2: was so distressing. My anxiety about it was so bad
Speaker 2: that it felt disoriented in you know, like I didn't
Speaker 2: It's just I couldn't even hear my children. Even though
Speaker 2: I could they were talking and I could hear them,
Speaker 2: I couldn't that that's the only thing I could hear.
Speaker 2: What is something initially you would recommend to help someone
Speaker 2: sort of sender themselves that you've seen work.
Speaker 3: Oh one hundred percent. Well, the body scan for sure,
Speaker 3: if they're capable of that. Getting out in nature also
Speaker 3: really really supportive and useful in so many levels, but
Speaker 3: out and about around the house. I mean, any kind
Speaker 3: of noise. If you want to use white noise, pink noise, whatever,
Speaker 3: go for it. But I wouldn't use it to drown
Speaker 3: out the sinatus because what that's doing is teaching the brain. Hey, brain,
Speaker 3: we have a problem, focus on it. Get rid of it.
Speaker 3: I talk about this in my book rock Steady. The
Speaker 3: more we focus on the tinatus as a problem, the
Speaker 3: more we neurologically exacerbate it, which keeps the perpetuated symptom loop.
Speaker 3: So what I say to people is there's nothing wrong
Speaker 3: with using noise, but just think about what's my motivation
Speaker 3: if I put on my favorite playlist, like listening to
Speaker 3: your podcast or you know, all this fun music to
Speaker 3: match my mood. You know, maybe I'm sad and I
Speaker 3: want to listen to blues music or Willie Nelson. Maybe
Speaker 3: I want to dance, so I put on some Latin
Speaker 3: music when I'm choosing the music, which is still going
Speaker 3: to drown out the tinatus. But when I'm choosing the
Speaker 3: playlist to get me in an emotional state that's coming
Speaker 3: from a place of desire, pleasure, moving, you know music
Speaker 3: took to cook to. Yeah, I'm actually achieving the same
Speaker 3: purpose of shifting the neural activity away from the tintus.
Speaker 3: But it's not coming from getting rid of it. It's
Speaker 3: coming from moving toward the desire to feel my body
Speaker 3: dance and move, to be emotionally connected. So I think
Speaker 3: a lot of modern day therapies and tinatus retraining techniques,
Speaker 3: they kind of miss the juicy importance of bringing the
Speaker 3: emotional body along because we can't just look at the
Speaker 3: physical it's if you look at the whole person. Actually,
Speaker 3: you can't just look at the thoughts or just look
Speaker 3: at the emotions, or just look at the sound. We
Speaker 3: have to look at the whole person and say, Okay,
Speaker 3: how can we best participate in these neural maps. And
Speaker 3: it's going to be everything from body position to the
Speaker 3: mindset and the thoughts to meaningfully addressing and meeting the
Speaker 3: fears that are alive in that moment. We have to
Speaker 3: digest and process the fears or the fears takeover. And
Speaker 3: then the missing piece, which I really talk about at
Speaker 3: length in my rock Steady book, is what do I
Speaker 3: desire to feel? Because they're the neural pathways I need
Speaker 3: to start focusing on. And if I want to feel connected, juicy, playful, free,
Speaker 3: maybe I have a playlist that takes me on that
Speaker 3: journey and I can groove to the music and then
Speaker 3: I'm really firing the neurons and actually has nothing to
Speaker 3: do with the tinatus. So again that's the smoke, not
Speaker 3: the fire.
Speaker 1: I love that analogy.
Speaker 2: I think even the knowledge that something can be done
Speaker 2: about it, because when you have it and you go
Speaker 2: to a doctor and and you say this is so distressing,
Speaker 2: it feels very isolating. Initially, and I felt very lonely
Speaker 2: because I felt like I'm the only one that can
Speaker 2: hear this, Nobody else can it. Just I felt very alone.
Speaker 2: I think just the knowl if someone had just said
Speaker 2: to me, Hey, there's actually a way to cure this
Speaker 2: is what you're saying to write, I think I would
Speaker 2: have felt gotten over hearing it so loudly a lot quicker.
Speaker 2: I think the hopelessness comes from people saying there's nothing
Speaker 2: to be done, and so that's why I feel like
Speaker 2: this is so exciting, and I hope anyone listening, because
Speaker 2: the more I said, oh I have this, I was
Speaker 2: shocked at how many people around me were like, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I had that too.
Speaker 3: It's one in three people, it's a lot. Not everybody
Speaker 3: has it to psychologically distressing levels, but some people are
Speaker 3: debilitated and suicidal. And there are so many people who
Speaker 3: literally their lives are saved when they enter the rock
Speaker 3: steady process because they get their life back.
Speaker 2: It's that duck I found that distressing too. I found
Speaker 2: it very triggering to know that some people had ended
Speaker 2: their own lives over it, because I thought, God, what
Speaker 2: if it gets that bad one day? Because I understood
Speaker 2: that mine wasn't the worst that it could be. I've
Speaker 2: heard the sort of noises that other people hear sounds
Speaker 2: other people here, and it was unimaginable to me.
Speaker 1: There's quite a few people that have written in, so
Speaker 1: I would love to read some of their questions. If
Speaker 1: that works for everyone, Yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 3: And can I just add here if you are listening
Speaker 3: and you're really in that difficult alone place. On my website,
Speaker 3: there are heaps of case studies of people who have
Speaker 3: gone through it, and they've gone through the dark soul
Speaker 3: of the night. They're on the other side, and I
Speaker 3: think there's a lot of companionship gauging with real life
Speaker 3: stories where you're getting it. We want to recondition ourselves
Speaker 3: to believe in the body and to really participate in
Speaker 3: the process and not feel like we're just passive victims
Speaker 3: and lives being thrown upon us. So, yeah, the case
Speaker 3: studies are powerful, and my book also, rock Steady, has
Speaker 3: a lot of mythbusting and useful supportive tricks and ideas
Speaker 3: and home practices that you can try straight away.
Speaker 2: And also we will put make sure this is in
Speaker 2: all of our online for everybody. But can you just
Speaker 2: say what your website is.
Speaker 3: It's seeking balance dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: Okay, Anne wrote it, and she said, any quick and
Speaker 1: easy solutions for dizziness because I get dizzy very often.
Speaker 3: My heart is with you, an I'm I'm gonna say
Speaker 3: the body scan. It's all about reorienting ourselves to understand, Okay,
Speaker 3: my shoulders are above my hips, I can feel both
Speaker 3: feet on the ground. Like we want to really build
Speaker 3: our neurological structures in the proprioceptive system, which is thirty
Speaker 3: percent of our balance function. So you have your ears,
Speaker 3: your eyes, and your proprioceptive system, which is a fancy
Speaker 3: word for how we orient ourselves, how we locate ourselves
Speaker 3: and the sensation of touch. So when we're swaying side
Speaker 3: to side, our propriaceptive system is going okay, lifts and right,
Speaker 3: and we hone that we absolutely refine that function through practice,
Speaker 3: and my book Crop Steady has a lot of really
Speaker 3: simple practices that will help you with that.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, because I know that verdigo is part of this.
Speaker 2: And I wrote in and they said that there is
Speaker 2: constant itchy and cracking noises in the ear for months
Speaker 2: a cause of concern. My current doctor has been very
Speaker 2: dismissive and very agitated. Is that something that tonight's orus
Speaker 2: can sound like? Can it sound like that?
Speaker 3: Yes? Oh? Absolutely?
Speaker 2: Am I itching too?
Speaker 3: Itching?
Speaker 2: Not so much?
Speaker 3: It's got no, it's just it's going a bit laterally.
Speaker 3: But honestly, you can get dermatitis and like exma in
Speaker 3: your ears. Oh and so you can medically soothe that,
Speaker 3: or you know, olive oil is very safe to try
Speaker 3: in the ears. Just a drop of olive oil and
Speaker 3: just allow that to have a little bit of a
Speaker 3: lubrication and moisturizing effect. But honestly, psoriasis treatments, all of
Speaker 3: those things are still relevant. And and you know, try
Speaker 3: a different doctor if you're feeling dismissed.
Speaker 1: Always yes, advocating for yourself. So Kiki wrote in and said,
Speaker 1: for several years, if I sleep my any side besides
Speaker 1: my left, I get vertigo. Any suggestions on how to
Speaker 1: fix this?
Speaker 3: Well? BEPPV Benign paroxysmal positional vertigo is the technical term
Speaker 3: for the most common form of vertigo. I've actually had
Speaker 3: it twice. One in four people get it, so very
Speaker 3: common and you can treat it. I talk about it
Speaker 3: in my book. You can google it, and there's basically
Speaker 3: little calcium carbonate odiconia molecules. They call them crystals, and
Speaker 3: they live in the ears. They're healthy, but they can
Speaker 3: fall out of their little bedroom and start rolling around
Speaker 3: the ear. So if it's the right side that's getting dizzy,
Speaker 3: it might be the right ear that's affected. So what
Speaker 3: we do is we test and treat which ear where
Speaker 3: the crystals are, and then we literally just roll them back.
Speaker 3: It's like less than two minutes the treatment, and once
Speaker 3: you're treated, you're treated full life.
Speaker 2: That's incredible, So it can come and go.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I've had it twice, but you can
Speaker 3: test and treat it literally on the spot. And in
Speaker 3: my rock Steady program, I have a whole video tutorial
Speaker 3: where people do that themselves. Because it's so debilitating, you
Speaker 3: can be like, I never ever want to go traveling
Speaker 3: ever again because I need to have my physiotherapist around
Speaker 3: the corner nearby in case the crystals come out. So
Speaker 3: it's really debilitating. But once you have this education that Okay,
Speaker 3: I can test and treat myself. I can literally do
Speaker 3: that in my hotel in Thailand. So really important to
Speaker 3: get that kind of basic stuff covered because you don't
Speaker 3: have to live with it, and many people do.
Speaker 2: My friend also has has been diagnosed with to notice
Speaker 2: he wants to know if your treatment because this is
Speaker 2: what I would keep reading when I would google. It
Speaker 2: is part of it to do with listing to different frequencies,
Speaker 2: because I've heard that that's something that people sometimes they
Speaker 2: treat tonight us with that, although it doesn't necessarily sound
Speaker 2: like it's a curing it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think we're really trained to look outside
Speaker 3: of ourselves for answers to distract, to numb, to ignore,
Speaker 3: to medicate, And I think some of these fancy devices
Speaker 3: I don't recommend them, but I also don't not recommend them.
Speaker 3: So it's like, you know yourself, if you love gadgets
Speaker 3: and devices that lights you up, it makes you excited,
Speaker 3: go for it in all that frequency matching.
Speaker 2: Because you're getting that feeling internally, and that's really maybe
Speaker 2: what that is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an emotional yearning for like, ah, you know,
Speaker 3: I really want that inspector gadget watch and you know,
Speaker 3: this makes me feel like I'm an avatar. So it's
Speaker 3: like different strokes for different folks. But me, I would
Speaker 3: go music. I would go the full spectrum of frequencies.
Speaker 3: I would let myself be really flooded with music that
Speaker 3: I love, rather than trying to isolate a frequency and
Speaker 3: really overly obsess about something very linear. I always go
Speaker 3: the nonlinear. I always go the complex. Human beings are complex,
Speaker 3: and I think we need to meet complexity with complexity,
Speaker 3: not try and make tenesis into some linear simple You know,
Speaker 3: I have a splinter. Get the Tweezers pulled the splinter out.
Speaker 3: This is not what we're talking about. It's going on LINEA.
Speaker 1: I love what you've said repeatedly, which is the body scan,
Speaker 1: because I do think. I mean, there's a whole book
Speaker 1: about the body knows the score. Your body doesn't forget
Speaker 1: all the things that's been through. It actually doesn't. Your
Speaker 1: mind actually has a different and more sophisticated coping system,
Speaker 1: but your body actually is a little more raw and
Speaker 1: remembers it all. This has been so incredible.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, incredibly.
Speaker 1: Informative for me. I mean, sitting on the outside I
Speaker 1: could watch you guys and hear and listen to you.
Speaker 1: But thank you so much for spend Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I actually did not know that statistic of
Speaker 2: one in three, So I'm sure so many people listening
Speaker 2: will relate to this and be given hope. I really
Speaker 2: you're the first, literally the first person I've heard that
Speaker 2: could ever be like, wow, this is something that could
Speaker 2: fix I love this. You still have it right I
Speaker 2: can hear right now because we're talking about it.
Speaker 1: I smell a part too between you two.
Speaker 2: I will happily have you on in listeners. If you
Speaker 2: have more specific questions about this, please hit us in
Speaker 2: the comments, hit us in our DMS.
Speaker 3: I really deliberately have a neurodiversity and complexity affirming community
Speaker 3: because we're all so different, and so many of my
Speaker 3: participants have not been believed. It's yes, it's heart wrenching
Speaker 3: and neurodivergences and all of these things matter, like we
Speaker 3: have to figure out what brain am I born with?
Speaker 3: What body am I born with? How are they communicating?
Speaker 3: And how can I fully participate? So I'm actually happy.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being joy.
Speaker 2: We will have you back on pleasure. Yes, thank you
Speaker 2: so much. This was so incredible. Thank you. Okay, bye bye.
Speaker 3: Bye, have a great day you too.
Speaker 2: I love that she joined us all the way from Australia.
Speaker 2: I want to end this podcast just by saying that
Speaker 2: Jess and I started this podcast to build community for
Speaker 2: people not to feel so alone. When I first had this,
Speaker 2: I felt so alon, I felt crazy, I felt like
Speaker 2: it was maddening. And I know this is a very
Speaker 2: specific topic that we are tackling today, but maybe you
Speaker 2: even know someone in your life that has it and
Speaker 2: you don't have it. Please please give this podcast to them.
Speaker 2: It has meant so much to me just listening to this.
Speaker 2: It really felt hopeless for a long time. And this
Speaker 2: is very exciting, very exciting.
Speaker 1: Yes, And obviously, I mean, you know when people when
Speaker 1: we bring on the professionals, and we bring on the doctors,
Speaker 1: and we bring on to the people who study these
Speaker 1: things with their whole beings every single day, they have
Speaker 1: a different set of vocabulary and there are always I
Speaker 1: always love when I'm in a conversation when I hear
Speaker 1: a new word.
Speaker 2: Because I'm like, write it down, look.
Speaker 1: It up, you know. So you know, she's clearly given
Speaker 1: us so many things to think about, and so many
Speaker 1: different words and ways of seeing things. And I'm so
Speaker 1: excited to take my notes from today's podcast and double
Speaker 1: click and look some words up and make sure that
Speaker 1: I understand all that she was talking about. And I
Speaker 1: have heard about body scans. It is definitely it's not
Speaker 1: an actual scan, by the way. You don't go get
Speaker 1: it in a doctor's office. And I don't want to
Speaker 1: speak to it specifically because I don't know that I
Speaker 1: will describe it as it should be described. But it
Speaker 1: is definitely not a doctor's office visit. It is a
Speaker 1: body scan that you do with yourself, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to now go look it up so I re equate
Speaker 1: myself with it. But it is something that I think
Speaker 1: everyone should look into if you're interested in this topic,
Speaker 1: and also please let us know what was interesting about
Speaker 1: this and what you would like to know more about
Speaker 1: if there's other subjects.
Speaker 2: Because she's talking also about brain fog, and I know
Speaker 2: that a lot of people, a lot of people right now,
Speaker 2: I feel like they're suffering from that.
Speaker 1: So, oh my gosh, as it pertains to long COVID,
Speaker 1: as it pertains to perimenopause, menopause, we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about that, by the way. Yeah, there's going to be
Speaker 1: so many things that we're going to talk about, and
Speaker 1: often we're going to talk about the chit chat and
Speaker 1: the being together and all that, and then sometimes we're
Speaker 1: gonna pull in these moments and I would love to
Speaker 1: hear from you all and the crew, you know, how
Speaker 1: you respond to it, if it's interesting, if it's like
Speaker 1: what what would be what would be a topic that
Speaker 1: you'd like to go do a deep dive into. And
Speaker 1: because it's we're so lucky we have, you know, incredible
Speaker 1: people that are really ready to come on and talk
Speaker 1: to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if we don't know what it is, we
Speaker 2: will find someone that does. We're all about those experts.
Speaker 3: Let's go, let's go, let go.
Speaker 2: I think that we we're gonna call it the end
Speaker 2: of the episode, but I think that we I'm gonna
Speaker 2: call it community because I think sharing all of this
Speaker 2: kind of shit that feels lonely sometimes is gonna be
Speaker 2: key to helping us all be so much happier. So
Speaker 2: quite simply just happier at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and I will I will add to it.
Speaker 1: I would also call it you are not.
Speaker 2: Alone yeah, absolutely all right guys, thanks for joining us
Speaker 2: and hit us up in the comments.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Joey, Thank you Joey.
Speaker 2: Bye.