WEBVTT - Eva Beylin on eGirl Capital, The Graph, and Building Web3 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:15.240 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:20.200 I'm Joe Wisnal and I'm Tracy Halloway. So, Trady, I 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.279 guess it's kind of a cliche like every time we 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.320 do a crypto episode. Crypto markets have been pretty volatile lately, 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.880 but actually right now they have been extremely volatile, and 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.160 it's not just a it's not just a cliche. Right now, Yeah, 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.320 people are talking about crypto winter, so I guess a 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.640 redux of what we saw back in where we had 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:41.840 the big fall and then it took a very very 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.920 long time for people to get excited and interested in 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.839 crypto again. But that said, I do feel like this 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.320 period of time is it feels a little bit different 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.080 because even though the spot prices of a bunch of 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.200 different things are falling, it seems like there's still a 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.560 ton of money flooding into the space. And maybe that'll 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.960 change eventually, but for the time being, it feels like 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:09.160 there's still a lot of interest. Yeah, I think that's true. 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:14.440 It also feels like there's you know, twenty eighteen en 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.320 it felt like it was the only thing that people 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:19.720 really talked about with crypto was the price. And I 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.039 still think like the price of the coins is still 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.360 like the part that captures people's attention the most. But 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.759 I guess there is this idea of like, okay, like 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.920 there's some new Web three point oh Web three that's 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.560 getting built out, and it's being built towards something, And 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.240 I don't think anyone is that great at describing what 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.160 it's going to look like or what this new version 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.240 of the Internet is. But I guess that that it's 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:45.160 I think it's sufficiently captured people's imagination enough that even 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.840 if the price were to stay depressed, people want to 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.080 keep building it out and turning it into something a 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.680 little bit more tangible beyond speculation. Well, this is one 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.320 of the remarkable things about crypto. I feel like it's 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.880 almost like every time you turn around, there's a new 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.440 use case that gets invented, And you're right. It is 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.560 weird to think that a few years ago, we weren't 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.920 talking about Web three point oh, we weren't talking about 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.560 defy at all. We were just talking about bitcoin mostly 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.720 as a unit of payment, maybe an inflation hedge, digital goal, 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.280 that sort of thing. And already in the space of 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.079 a few years, the narrative changes so quickly the narrative 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.200 change is super fast. I sometimes go back and forth 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.600 whether that's a good sign or whether it's just like, oh, 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.200 here's our new thing because the last thing didn't materialize. 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.200 But nonetheless it's ongoing. You know you mentioned in the beginning, 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.760 and I think this is really key is that, yes, 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.840 there is this decline in prices that we've seen, but 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.720 on the flip side, it feels like there's an intense 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.120 amount of investment and building and money pouring into like 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.720 creating new things. And so I really want to explore 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.000 this tension more by talking about like what's really going 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.600 on between the price and then you know there's sort 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.359 of like actual activity in this space, because they really 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.640 are two different things. Yeah, absolutely, let's do it. Okay, 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.600 I am very excited. Oh wait, wait, there's one more 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:09.800 thing I want to say. You know what, one thing 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.400 that's really weird about talking about crypto is you're gonna 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.640 have to narrow it down one weird thing about talking 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.920 about crypto. There are many weird things. There's one more thing, 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.040 which is that so many of the best people in 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.960 the space are pseudonymous, like I don't know who they are. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.640 There's like all like these like incredible like experts that 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:29.440 I've learned a ton from over the years, and I 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.840 literally have no idea who they are. And unlike tread 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:38.040 fi like pseudonymous teams, pseudonymous founders, pseudonymous investors, people are 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.160 just an avatar, you know, maybe a frog, maybe an 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.960 anime character, maybe something like that could be like these 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.760 really important voices to listen to the space. Yeah, it's 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.320 always interesting when you're you're getting really good crypto information 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:56.600 from like like digital picture of an ape, a drawing 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.600 of a monkey. Yeah, exactly right. All right, well today 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.480 we are going to be speaking to a frog, but 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:04.880 we're going to be speaking to a maybe a colleague 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.320 of them. I am very excited. We're going to bring 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.400 speaking to Eva Balen. She is the director at the 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.320 Graph Foundation, and she is an e girl at the 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:21.520 Girl Capital, an amorphous crypto investment collective whose members include 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.880 various handles that people might see at crypto Twitter, like 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:30.039 at loom dart and at Digen Spartan and at Crypto 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.520 cat VC. I'm just looking at their website and Eva, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.440 who is not pseudonymous. So Eva, thank you very much 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.440 for coming out odd lot, Thank you so much for 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.200 having me excited to chat. So wait, First of all, 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:44.479 I used to be in some discord that was like 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.720 the egirl Capital discord, and now I'm not in it anymore. 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:49.680 Did I get kicked out or did it disappear like 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.120 what happened? Oh no, I'm not sure. Maybe we should 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.359 talk to our resident discord owner of the cat in 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.920 the Hasmath suit. But we did have a public chat 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:00.640 that was just sort of for our unity to come 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.880 around share information. Alright, well, somehow I'm not in it. 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.279 The cat is at c L two oh seven. But 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.960 more seriously, like what is the girl Capital? Yeah, so 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.039 first we started off as just you know, a few 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.479 and nons, and we quickly realized that the scope that 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:17.800 we were covering in our interests, um you know, we 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.200 could do some damage. We could either start to invest 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.400 or um you know, start to get more involved in 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:24.559 the way we were already involved in Web three, which 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:26.680 you know, as you mentioned, I'm director of the foundation 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.160 at the Graph. We've got a few members who are 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.760 leaders of projects, so Scoopy Trooples, a CEO of Alcomics. 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.400 We've got another guy named DevOps who leads Saddle Finance. 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.240 We've got a few traders, a few security engineers. So 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.679 we realized that with this breadth of experience, we actually 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.320 have something very unique to offer that wasn't consistent with 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.039 typical investment funds in UM Web two or in Wall 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.600 Street UM, and not even consistent with Web three, where 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:53.040 we don't have any LPs UM and we operate quite independently. 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.719 So UM even every deal, you know, not every member 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.400 participates in, and we actually um you know, only agree 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.360 to you know, take on an egirl d if we're 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.360 all kind of in consensus. So I mean, I have 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.120 a bunch of questions already, but maybe just to begin with, 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.880 could you could you maybe describe your your membership a 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.000 little bit more? And I guess who are the types 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.640 of people that would join something like egirl Capital versus 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:21.080 going down the route of traditional crypto investment, and what 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.920 is it that they get out of this particular organization 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.039 versus again, more traditional forms of investment. And I guess 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.960 my overarching question is also how do you actually decide 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.760 what to invest in and coordinate given that you're dealing 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.240 with a group of disparate people, some of whom, as 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.560 Joe pointed out in the intro, are pseud aotonomous yes 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.200 and answer your first question. You know, the way we 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.680 came together was again very kind of organic, and a 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.960 lot of us have full time jobs that are different. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.840 So you know, I have a full time job as 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.080 a builder, um. Others you know might be trading or 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.960 running other investments full time. And so for us it 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.479 was like, how can we come together in this way 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.880 that is organic. We don't have some quota or some 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.760 expectations from LPs, but still provide value. And so for 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:08.799 us that it's much more of a choice. We aren't 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:12.240 sort of behold into any expectations and even our investments 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.760 you know, aren't again meeting some kind of quota per year. 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:16.960 So um, we've been around for about a year now 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.600 and we've made two million dollars about two million dollars 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.120 worth of investments across ten different projects UM. And really 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.520 our priority is to invest in critical decentralized primitives of 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.200 web three UM and kind of you know, the metaverse 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.000 meets defy. So a lot of our projects, um, you 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.640 know are actually an f T based something like yat 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.320 um or you know, investing in actually art or unisocks, 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.040 as you you know might have seen. We startingly believe 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.840 in um veblin goods and the ability that you know, 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.400 for goods representing early defy um like unisocks you know, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.840 are likely to increase in value long term. UM. But 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.560 we're also investing in a lot of really critical protocols 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.320 that are going to fundamentally change technology and innovation. So UM, 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.200 things like connects, which is a layer two protocol that 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.960 connects literally connects between different layer twos on ethereum UM, 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.080 or Radical, which is sort of a GitHub replacement a 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.360 way to have open source code collaboration. UM. So really 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.320 we are motivated by what are the best projects, what 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.440 would make the most impact, and what's most aligned with 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.680 Web three. I just want to ask about the coordination 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.320 portion of it, Like how do you actually go about 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:26.360 identifying and evaluating potential investments. Yeah, so all of us 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.040 are in different sub communities, so typically, you know, there 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:30.960 might be one or two members of the girl that 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.160 are kind of leading that deal. Maybe it was, um, 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.160 you know, a project they've already been working with or 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:37.319 got connected with, and then we'll start doing our own 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.880 internal due diligence. UM. I'm excited to say we now 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.480 have a few interns we didn't have that here ago UM, 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.640 but they often will help us do research, whether that's 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.199 looking at on chain metrics, maybe comparing against other projects UM. 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.199 And again, because we're so deep in the space, a 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.080 lot of us have expertise, whether it's you know, security 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.240 or smart contracts or business that we can kind of 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.600 bring to to each deal. UM. But I wouldn't say 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.000 it's you know, quite the most traditional due diligence process 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.720 as hedge funds that you're used to seeing. Is there 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.960 a pooled capital element of it? Like is there a 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.839 pot that you and these fellow your fellow members and 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.120 put money into. And I'm just curious, like are they 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:17.000 anonymous to you as well? Most of them? So first question, 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.239 we don't have a potum, although we have been considering 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.240 growing into a doubt formally on chain um where right now, 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.480 the way we behave is per deal, so you know, 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.400 we kind of bring it to the group. Anyone who 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.000 wants to participate, you know, gets a cut or you know, 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.840 depending on kind of the breakdown or interest, and we 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.120 typically will um, you know, bring it on as an 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.840 ego deal if there's enough interest from the group. If 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.240 there isn't enough interest, you know, again, we have our 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.319 own statures in the community, so often someone will do 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.319 an angel investment or maybe even go work with the 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.200 project directly. Um. What was your second question again? To 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.400 what degree? Like, do you mostly know your colleagues as 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.640 a nons or have you like are there some there 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.000 that you still don't know who they are? Oh? No, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.760 they're fully ant me. Um. I've met a few of 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.040 them in person. UM. I know you know a few 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.439 of their first names, but otherwise you know, I I 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:05.760 don't know very much about them. And that's kind of 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.440 the beauty of it. You know. Part of the Web 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.319 three and cryptovision is how do we actually utilize pseudonymity 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.160 in a more productive way. So you know, DJs have 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.600 been doing this for years. You know, almost every DJ 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.200 has their own alias or alter ego and they get 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.040 to then create that sub community or sub brand. And 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.679 so similarly with crypto, you know, you can participate in 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.120 a protocol in a sort of gig economy style. And 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.960 why do you need that to be tied to your 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.240 birth identity? Um? When actually you can start to create 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.479 your own alter ego on chain that might be associated 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:39.600 with you know, a cat or a monkey. Um. And 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.440 maybe you're only you know, participating in this one protocol, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.960 and then maybe you have another identity for a different one. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:51.760 I'm thinking about David Solomon and DJ soul Um. So sorry, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.520 he might be an E girl, he might be yeah, 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.679 who knows. Well, okay, So again this is one of 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.000 those conversations is just throwing up more and more question. 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.840 But two things. One y E girl, and I guess 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.240 it's a really stupid question. Are most of your members 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.920 female or was there a desire there to get more 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:14.080 females on board with crypto? And then secondly, what's the 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.600 benefit of pseudonymity? Because when I think of crypto and bitcoin, 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.600 I always think, well, this is sort of attention at 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.520 the heart of crypto. On the one hand, it's transparent 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.880 and traceable and you can see all the transactions on 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.400 a blockchain and things like that. But on the other hand, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.360 it's not necessarily tied to a single identity, and so 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:38.080 you are able to do anonymous transactions. So I guess 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.040 what I'm getting at is what's the benefit of preserving 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:46.120 that pseudonymity of investors. The meme of E girl, I 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:50.000 believe came out of more anime and hent culture um 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:51.760 as I'm sure you've seen, you know, things like v 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.640 tubing where people are literally creating cartoon images of their 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.320 faces and then going on YouTube and you know, doing 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.160 a show has become extremely popular or even streaming, and 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.920 so we kind of tapped into this idea of you know, 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.400 anime and m cartoon characters you know, should also be 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.960 taken seriously as much as suits. Um in a sense, 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.600 we kind of present this anti suit culture or anti 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.440 suit meme. And I really personally related to that because 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.760 I used to be a management consultant in New York 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.080 and you know, being forced into sort of this box. 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.400 And it was very clear to me that webs three 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.920 and Crypto are the antithesis of that, where you really 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.600 can still be taken seriously for your bottom line or 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.320 for you know, the insightful tweets or whatever you might 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.320 be investing in. You don't need to be wearing a suit. 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.640 You could be wearing a hazmat suit, I guess on 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.520 your second question. So, the biggest misconception to me that 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:47.360 I see is people think that suitonymity or anonymity means 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.000 that you don't have reputation, when actually it's quite the 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.440 opposite that if you want to be known, and if 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.320 you want to have a community or you know, have 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.280 a job, you have to make much more effort to 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.360 develop that reputation than otherwise, you know, k y C people. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.559 So you know, I'm one of the only DOCS members 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.079 and you know, technically speaking, I've been developing my reputation 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.400 since I was born, and you know that's google able. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.800 But anyone who chooses to take on a different personality 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.160 is starting from scratch um. And so there's this misconception 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.880 that you know, of course, maybe you can't always trust 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.200 and nons, maybe there's some degree of risk, But at 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.360 the same time they've taken on a significant amount of 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.000 risk too that if they wanted to rebuild that identity 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.800 or reputation, they would take much longer than for everyone else. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.280 So I'm curious, you know, I'm looking at your your 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.720 portfolio on your website. I'm very amused by the unisocks investment. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.960 For one thing, that was for those who don't remember, 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.480 we had Mike de m Ray on the podcast in 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.000 December and he was involved in that, which is basically 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.319 buy an n f T that's associated with a literal 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.960 pair of talks. But some of these projects like I 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.960 think there's like all the like well known I guess 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.400 you would call them docks actually or just sort of 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.959 like established VC firms in them, and then the announcement 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:13.840 will like you know, to be like some name that 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.079 you've heard of from Silica Valley, egol Capital as part 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.480 of the round do legacy vcs? What do they think 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.840 about being part of a deal where you guys are 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.960 listed on the round? You know, I don't. I don't know, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.440 and to be honest, I don't really care. Um. I 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.440 think part of what we're trying to bring here is 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.160 like we're a group of highly capable, you know, folks 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.120 that have been in the space for between you know, 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.080 three to ten years. Um, you know, some started early 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.240 on in bitcoin, and we're bringing a lot of value 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.000 to the table that maybe untraditional, but um, you know 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.920 we're still here. We still were able to get a seat, 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.040 you know, the project believed in our value that we 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.880 could bring to them. Um. So I think it's really 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.720 exciting and it's you know, breaking down that barrier that 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.640 you know, you don't have to be wearing suits, you 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.960 don't even have to have an identity that's public really 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:00.000 to do well. Can we talk a little bit about 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.800 out the graph, which is your day job, and I 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:06.440 would love to get your summary of what exactly it does. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.240 But the other thing I want to ask you is 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.760 it has to do with atherium. It's not like a 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:16.480 bitcoin based application or protocol, and I guess I'm wondering. 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.960 You know, excitement over a theory um seems to be 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.400 one thing that a lot of the vcs share. So 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:29.400 the institutional capital is much more excited over ethereum and 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.240 applications and defy type stuff that you can build on 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.240 that versus basic bitcoin, which is seen as not being 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.760 as well suited to those types of applications. So I 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.080 guess my question is why ethereum and not something else 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.640 and doesn't mean that you sort of share something in 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.320 common with vcs and institutional money. So the graph is 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:53.640 a decentralized protocol for organizing and retrieving on chain data. 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.520 And what that means is every application that you see 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.560 that is running on a blockchain or queries smart contract, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.280 they have to retrieve that data from a blockchain somehow, 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.040 and it's actually really difficult for developers to do that. 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.120 They would have to run their own node, they would 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.840 have to become experts in that blockchain. It's essentially a 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.600 back end job. And so what the graph does is 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.160 we have a standardized layer or a standardized API called 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.200 a subgraph that allows developers to develop you know, an 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.280 organization style or figure out exactly what information they want 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.960 from the blockchain and just you know, play around with 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.400 that subgraph. Meanwhile, the actual indexing and processing of that 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.800 data goes on in the back end on a network 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.640 of index ers. So we're really decentralizing the server or 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.680 the back end of what otherwise would be you know, uh, 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:43.280 database UM, you know, indexing infrastructure UM that is serving 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.280 data to users. So we often like to call ourselves 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.800 the Google of blockchains, so as Google is a search 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.200 engine and also the back end indexing of all of 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.920 the Internet's data. Currently, the graph protocol is the indexing bit, 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.960 and so we're trying to enable other applications like search 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:01.480 engines and just in general to be able to retrieve 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:06.719 that data as efficiently as possible. And why ethereum ethereum, 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:11.240 so our our ethos as the graph has always been decentralized, 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.159 and you know, to enable the best security possible. You know, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.840 we really believe you can't have a DApp if it's 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.679 not decentralized, meaning all components are. And in our history 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.879 of just assessing blockchains, and you know, having been around 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.000 for a few years, um Ethereum was the one that 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.879 stayed true to that mission. Um the strongest, you know, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.119 and we're even seeing that today in you know, what 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.200 some people call Ethereum taking its time with a roadmap. 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.520 Others could see as actually Ethereum being very thoughtful with 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.199 its roadmap to not do things too quickly UM. And 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.639 you know, you see other problems on newer chains that 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.920 you know Ethereum also experienced earlier on but Ethereum is 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.000 just at a more mature state. And you know, our goal, 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.400 although the graph network is built on Ethereum, our goal 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.960 is actually to index all of the world's data, meaning 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:58.159 any blockchain. So our hosted service currently supports twenty seven chains, 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.760 including many of the layer twos on the aream, and 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:02.919 soon all those chains will also be supported on the 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.960 network itself. And you mentioned that other Layer one other 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.679 chains have had issues recording this January and the last 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.960 few days. Salana one of the chains that we've talked 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.080 about in the past that is arguably an Ethereum competitor 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.040 has seen some pretty big delays and slow down, so 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.199 a lot of kinks still being worked out. You just 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:28.119 raised at the graph fifty million dollars is led by 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.359 Tiger Global. What is uh, what is the plan for 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.880 this money and what do you need to build? Yeah, 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.480 I'm really glad you asked. So. Over the last year, 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:40.040 we've been pioneering this new strategy that we called decentralized 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.639 m n A. So we realized really early on that 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.119 the mission of the Graph was so ambitious, so vast, 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.359 it couldn't be done by one team, and nor was 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.040 that the goal. UM. You know, part of decentralization is 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:53.160 also decentralizing the contributors. So over the last year, we've 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:56.439 had four new teams join us full time UM that 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.159 specialized in anything from back end infrastructure to cryptography to 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.080 UM graph q l A p i s and bring 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:06.040 them into act basically as full time core developers on 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.640 the protocol. So we aren't no longer you know, one 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.480 team that you know initially launched the protocol. Where five 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.680 and we raise this round basically to continue moving along 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.080 the strategy. UM. We have a goal of bringing on 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.920 another three to five teams in the next two years UM, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:21.960 and that might be to help with the current roadmap 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.480 elements such as, um, you know, improving the efficiency of 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.560 the infrastructure. We also are you know, working and doubling 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.040 down on cryptography to make sure that the data that 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.719 is actually being you know, queried by apps is verifiable. 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.320 So we've got quite a complex roadmap UM, and we're 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.080 looking to use that fifty million dollars immunition UM to 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:42.040 basically continue building on our vision. So you've talked in 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.280 the idea of like, oh, this is going to be 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.440 the Google of blockchains and decentralized are making it easy 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:52.200 for any DAP or applicating to centralized application to query 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.080 the chain. That sounds obviously very cool and theory. Can 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.359 you give a little bit more, I guess some concrete 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.360 examples of what kind of apps or what specifically would 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:05.960 be involved in that, Like what are like I think 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.640 this is where when people at least for me maybe 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.240 I'm projecting, but at least for me, like I sort 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.760 of get trading and how the automated market makers work. 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:16.720 I sort of get like n f T s. But 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.040 still when I think about, like, well, what is a 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.040 web three application? What is it true? Like blockchain application. 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.600 Can you talk a little bit about specifically how applications 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.919 are using your infrastructure. Yeah, So, in my opinion, a 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:34.000 true DAP or true Web three app would be one 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.760 that is open permission lists and decentralized, meaning that it 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:40.320 would be very difficult or nearly impossible to take down. 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.439 And users have the right to exit, meaning that the 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:45.960 app or the platform itself isn't locking the user in. 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.200 But because everything is on a blockchain and other protocols, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.400 they can swap their data and assets between those um 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:54.359 So you know, one really great example is e n 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.800 S Ethereum Name Service. So this is you know, ethereum domains, 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.960 and this means that any application could essentially query data 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.439 about your Ethereum name Joe or Tracy and use that 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.840 information on any website. So instead of using a Google 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.280 Magic link like we use today, we could use Ethereum 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.080 name service. And that means that any application that wants 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:17.119 to get data from your e n S names so 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:19.760 maybe that's your wallet and your activity, they could query 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:21.840 a subgraph, so that's an e n S a p I. 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.359 So any information on you know that that's from the blockchain, 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.879 whether it's trade volumes, or pricing or assets needs to 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:31.920 be queried from a blockchain, and subgraphs make it much 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:35.040 easier since developers don't need to rebuild their own ap I. 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.400 So you know, anyone building on let's say the unit 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.520 swap protocol can just use the exact same unit swap API. 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.600 Because it's open source, they can also fork it, rebuild it, 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:45.879 maintain it if they want to. Um. You know, the 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.880 end goal being that all these subgraphs are public goods 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.640 and they're even maintained by the community or a doubt itself, 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.040 and that really enables much more you know, innovation time, 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.520 you know, maybe even cost savings for the team because 0:21:57.520 --> 0:21:59.600 they don't need to hire a full time engineer to 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.840 manage that database. UM and it really enables compose ability. 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.000 So many teams can collaborate on either the same API 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.560 or you know, the same protocol without having to do 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:12.679 the same work again. So I really like that definition 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:16.080 of right to exit because it jives really nicely with 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.399 the wallet idea. We're talking with Mike dem Ray about 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:23.200 this about how um you know, if if you have 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.600 a wallet, you know, say meta mask or something, it's 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:30.400 easy to port that onto something like Rainbow and you're 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.760 not dependent on the platform in order to access your 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:36.160 information and your data and your assets. So that makes 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:38.320 a lot of sense to me. But one thing I'm 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.919 wondering is, you know, you've mentioned decentralization a number of 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.879 times in this conversation, and you've even talked about a 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:50.520 decentralized way to invest in decentralization. Why is it so 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:56.840 important beyond a better user experience? Because people talk about 0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:00.920 Web three point oh as almost creating at our world, right, 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:03.879 it seems to have all these philosophical attachments and moral 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:08.320 values attached to it. What is it about decentralization that 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.040 makes it so important in your view and presumably so great. 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:14.359 I think there's a few things that we're starting to 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:17.879 see even play out in crypto. So one is censorship, 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.200 you know, the very common use case, and we're starting 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.480 to even see folks that just recently entered the n 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.800 f T space realized that, oh, you know, if the 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:27.600 n f T DAP isn't fully decentralized, meaning the A 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.080 P I, the server and where that n f T 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.919 metadata is stored, then you know, is that n f 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.679 T really real? Can I have the right to exit 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:38.720 that platform? Um? So you know, that's one one use case. 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:41.880 The second would be, you know, servers get taken down 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.280 all the time. Google goes down, Facebook goes down, and 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:47.200 they've been around for decades, and when we think about 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.040 scaling to a global network, you know, whether that's transactions 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:52.840 or n f T s, you really want to make 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:55.440 sure your app doesn't go down. So one really great 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.760 anecdote for us was Constitution down. So I'm not sure 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:01.640 if you've heard of Constitution to um, you know, millions 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.080 of dollars collected from the community to come bid for 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:08.480 the Constitution and at its peak, uh, you know, of excitement, 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.280 It's app went down because the API went down, and 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:14.000 so they actually transitioned to using a subgraph that was 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.439 on the decentralized network to make sure that they could 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.120 continue staying up during the auction. So that's a great 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:21.840 example of we're already seeing that today that you know, 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:24.760 things go down all the time. But furthermore, like why 0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:27.040 would you want adapt team to be the team also 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.160 managing the node and doing all the complexities. So one 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:33.359 thing the graph and other decentralized protocols allow for is 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:37.800 unbundling of what we're otherwise centralized services. Or um tasks 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:40.520 that were managed by the project team originally, but now 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:43.520 we can actually completely fragment that. So whereas a team 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:45.680 might have been the one that deployed the smart contracts, 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:47.879 they might not be the team managing the UI. They 0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:49.919 also might not be the team managing the a p I. 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:51.800 And that's fine because at the end of the day, 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:53.840 we're all building on top of each other's open source 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:57.720 tooling and protocols. So just on that note, I mean 0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:00.560 this is something that people who are iCal of the 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:04.320 web three point oh idea will often go after this 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:06.679 idea that you're just going to have people, you know, 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:10.800 a community sort of maintaining these databases or being responsible 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:15.199 for individual components of something that all fits together. And 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:18.920 maybe they argue that, well, they don't have an actual 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:21.800 self interest in keeping these up to date in the 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:25.040 same way that a company like a Google or a Facebook, 0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:27.639 even though you know, you might think it's evil, at 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:30.320 least it has a reason to kind of keep things going. 0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:35.400 So the decentralized processes might not be as reliable as 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:40.000 a more traditional or centralized process. I guess what's your 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:44.320 response to that sort of criticism. Yeah, I definitely hear 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:48.600 that centralized coordination has its efficiency gains. But the benefit 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:52.000 of blockchains and cryptocurrency is that we have this new 0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:55.439 incentive system. So whereas maybe Google had to be the 0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:58.359 one managing their servers because they owned all their equity 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.040 and they also owned the rights to the server UM, 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:03.639 we now have a world where anyone can buy a 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:07.280 token at any time, a utility token. Anyone can use 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:09.520 that token in the network. So in the graphs case, 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:13.560 that would be staking as an indexer or a delegator UM, 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:16.199 and you can then earn rewards from you know, that 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:18.879 network and the productivity and value that it creates for 0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:21.720 the world. So I actually think we're you know, solving 0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:25.080 some scalability issues where typically the only people that really 0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:27.159 care about the product are the people inside the company. 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:30.080 You know, often shareholders don't even care UM. But with tokens, 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:33.280 you allow anyone to you know, contribute and take ownership 0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:35.959 in the graph or whatever protocol it might be. So 0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.000 we're seeing things like grantees come up with ideas of 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:42.639 you know, tooling or protocol improvements just because they've now 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:44.920 bought in and feel they are part of the community 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.439 as well, even though maybe their full time job is 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:50.520 you know, using their real name, and you know maybe 0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:53.719 in the Web two I wanna talk more about you know, 0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:57.800 censorship and this and the dangers of centralization. And of 0:26:57.800 --> 0:27:01.399 course one of the most obvious cases is Twitter, and 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:05.560 people find themselves their accounts are banned, uh suddenly, and 0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:08.320 there's sort of this impulse to like, you know, this 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:10.800 is a word, like people love Twitter. You're on Twitter, 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.440 the fellow egirls are on Twitter. But you know, one 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:18.000 day Twitter could just take your account away. And it's 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:20.560 sort of this poster child for the sort of like 0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:23.080 the double edged sort of Web two. Yes, there's all 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:25.440 these like cool platforms. We can share stuff, we can talk, 0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:28.760 but we really don't own own anything and we can 0:27:28.840 --> 0:27:33.040 be cut off. Do you first see Web three depths 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:36.159 rebuilding that in a decentralized way, Like will there be 0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:39.359 a decentralized Twitter? Do you envision that, like at some 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:41.480 point in the next five years, you won't have to 0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:43.480 use Twitter, you won't have to use Discord, or you 0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:47.280 won't have to use Telegram because there are new decentralized 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:51.160 versions where you could share and communicate without the need 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:55.280 for a middleman company. I really do, and I think 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:58.719 it's going to make building applications way more competitive because 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:01.440 the switching costs are much ower. So you know, often 0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:03.840 the way banks and credit cards keep customers in is 0:28:03.840 --> 0:28:05.640 the switching costs or hig you can't reach the bank, 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:08.200 whatever it might be. UM. Here it's as easy as 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:12.040 just sending wallet, sending funds to another wallet, UM, or 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.639 you know, switching UM your your name or your n 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:16.879 f T s. You know, by just selling it in 0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:19.840 the marketplace. UM. So it'll be a lot easier to 0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:21.919 build those apps. And we're already starting to see it 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:25.600 with adapt called Orbits recently came out. I know adapt 0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:27.919 called Scent has been out for a while, UM, but 0:28:27.960 --> 0:28:31.120 we'll probably see more iteration. What I'm personally excited for 0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:34.359 is to see the coupling of the actual actions on 0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:38.200 chain with our social platforms. So you know, right now, 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:41.200 most dows, they typically have a forum or some kind 0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:44.320 of social platform where they discussed the doubt proposals before 0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:46.480 it's actually put to a vote. And why is it 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:51.320 that the voting in the forum discussion is disconnected? Um? 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:53.320 You know, one of the things I love about Bloomberg 0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:55.560 is that the reason you know it kind of kicked 0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:58.160 off was because the messenger or the chat became so 0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:01.480 useful for traders, um, to make settlements or OTC trades, 0:29:01.520 --> 0:29:03.080 whatever it might have been. And so I think we're 0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:05.320 gonna see that same kind of thing happened where our 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:09.400 social applications are gonna start coinciding with maybe actually transactions, 0:29:09.480 --> 0:29:12.320 you know, maybe um submitting trades, and you know, across 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.400 the board, we could see even the way we behave 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:17.479 with each other starting to change. You know, people already 0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:19.120 start to stock each other's e and s names to 0:29:19.120 --> 0:29:21.280 see what they're doing. Um, So what else could there be? 0:29:22.480 --> 0:29:26.600 I'm going to ask another boomer feasibility question, I guess, 0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:29.560 but I mean a lot of the a lot of 0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:33.280 the services online that people use now, like Twitter or Facebook, 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:37.080 they're free. And the way those companies make money, um, 0:29:37.160 --> 0:29:39.720 you know maybe with the exception of Twitter, but the 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:43.200 way they're supposed to make money is through advertising and 0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:47.720 through gathering user data so that they can target these 0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:50.280 people with the most effective ads. And it's supposed to 0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:53.840 be the data which is the valuable product here. You know, 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:56.720 you've got something for free in exchange for providing these 0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:59.720 companies reams and reams of data. When you move to 0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:05.160 decentralized applications my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, 0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:07.480 But my understanding is a lot of that data is 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:12.480 supposed to be more freely available, more open, more transparent, 0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:15.840 which I guess makes it maybe less valuable to a 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:20.000 company trying to do something with it. It's no longer proprietary. 0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:22.960 So I guess the question is, like, how does that 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:27.560 wide that wide open data or you know, the way 0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:31.200 that decentralization will make data more accessible, more transparent, more 0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:35.440 widely available, how does that stack up with actually making 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:41.200 money from decentralized services and transactions? Like how are profits 0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:45.720 actually supposed to be created through this process? Yeah, that's 0:30:45.720 --> 0:30:47.880 a really good question, and to be honest, I don't 0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:50.640 have a clear answer because I would say a lot 0:30:50.680 --> 0:30:53.840 of the infrastructure to enable even the most simple like 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:56.520 data analysis isn't quite there yet. You know, I can 0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:59.200 speak for the graph and our roadmap is still quite ambitious. 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:01.040 You know, we'd like to be able to better support 0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:04.280 analytics for that use case you're talking about, But I 0:31:04.320 --> 0:31:07.360 I foresee a lot of different kinds of monetization strategies, 0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:10.800 so kind of like I mentioned, people participating in protocols, 0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:13.480 you know, that's revenue, so you know, whether it's a 0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:17.160 fund or an individual UM staking uh, you know, tokens 0:31:17.400 --> 0:31:20.280 and then providing services. And those services could be anything 0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:23.120 from you know, looking at images and curating which art 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:26.680 is most interesting to actually running hardware or you know, 0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:29.600 maybe being a trader or a yield farmer UM, and 0:31:29.680 --> 0:31:32.080 that is a way to generate income UM. I think 0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:34.240 we'll also start to see a lot more innovation in 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:37.880 the micro payment level. So whereas right now we're you know, 0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:40.880 not very mature in how do we enable what we 0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:44.200 call meta transactions, so kind of transactions embedded in the background. 0:31:44.600 --> 0:31:46.560 But I think what we might see in the future 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:49.760 with oracles UM, you know, which is retrieving off Chaine 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:53.400 data UM and other tooling UM the ability to charge 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:57.440 or or be charged for smaller interactions and that gets 0:31:57.480 --> 0:31:59.920 charged directly to a wallet, and your wallet being you know, 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:02.000 something like your E and S name is now tied 0:32:02.040 --> 0:32:05.040 to your identity. Instead of the ad companies paying uh, 0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:07.680 you know, Twitter, the ad companies could in theories start 0:32:07.720 --> 0:32:11.160 paying users and that could be micropayments or micro transactions 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:14.280 that are sent directly to the user wallet. UM. Similarly, 0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:17.560 maybe instead of UM artists, you know, art being looked 0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:20.920 at and them never receiving any rewards. Maybe artists are 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:24.640 earning to their wallets based on impressions or micro impressions 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:27.000 on Instagram. UM. So I think we're gonna start seeing 0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:30.600 different kinds of monetization patterns arrive as the tech also 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:33.200 becomes more mature UM. And that includes layer two. It 0:32:33.240 --> 0:32:35.920 includes things like the graph Um storage. You know, things 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:38.600 like are we've ipfs really seeing all those pieces come 0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:55.840 together to make that possible? So, you know, one of 0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:58.600 the reasons, you know, one that I'm excited about having 0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:02.920 this conversation is you're really on both sides of the market. 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:07.400 As part of the Girl collective, you're an investor in 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:12.160 various Web three infrastructure, and the director at the graph 0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:14.840 you're building stuff and raising money. So I want to 0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:18.320 start like, Okay, obviously we've seen this pretty big volatility, 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:21.760 and by volatility I mean selling Ethereum has basically been 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:24.040 cut in half since the middle of November. A lot 0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:26.440 of coins have done worse. So I want to just 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:30.080 start with like a simple question, which is have you 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:32.760 seen when you're going out to market as an investor 0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:36.760 looking to buy into projects, has the selling um had 0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:40.440 any effect on sort of like private market valuations or 0:33:40.640 --> 0:33:43.800 deal pace or anything like that. I haven't seen it effected, 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:47.520 and I would be surprised if it does, because the 0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:49.800 thesis with you know, the girl and others is much 0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:53.360 more long term um typically at least two years, often decades, 0:33:53.640 --> 0:33:55.480 and so we're really focused on what is the next 0:33:55.480 --> 0:33:57.240 thing we're building, and how do we invest in in 0:33:57.480 --> 0:34:00.400 that team that's building it. I mean, when you see 0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:03.720 people talk about crypto winter on Twitter, and you know, 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:07.000 there have been people who maybe panic isn't the right word, 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:10.320 but certainly there's a sort of sense of unease amongst 0:34:10.560 --> 0:34:13.640 crypto investors at the moment. I think, does does it 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:17.840 affect your investing behavior at all? Or does it affect 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:20.640 the way you think about things? Does it lengthen the 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:24.799 timeline to make things come together or be viable or 0:34:25.080 --> 0:34:28.720 affected in any way? Yeah, I'd say it probably affects 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:32.040 us in how we think about our community. So anyone 0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:35.160 who is around during the last bear market remembers how 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:37.360 brutal it was. You know, there were a lot of 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:41.360 really challenging experiences, whether it was layoffs or lack of 0:34:41.400 --> 0:34:44.759 capital um, and so that is The first thing I 0:34:44.800 --> 0:34:46.480 thought about was, you know, are we going to make 0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:48.759 it as a collective, you know, is everyone going to 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:52.120 be okay? But the more controversial perspective I have is that, 0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:54.760 you know, bear markets are great. You know, as a builder, 0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:56.640 you know, the graph was built in a bear market, 0:34:56.719 --> 0:34:59.600 and most of the best projects and infrastructure today, whether 0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:02.080 it's later two S or n f T s, arrived 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.400 during the bear market, and it gives us time to 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:08.279 actually make mistakes, iterate. And even as an investor, you know, 0:35:08.480 --> 0:35:11.480 you need that time for a project team to iterate 0:35:11.520 --> 0:35:14.360 to actually come up with something innovative. So I'm also excited, 0:35:14.400 --> 0:35:16.239 you know, if that is what's what's happening, if we're 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:18.840 having a little bit of a slowdown to have projects, 0:35:18.840 --> 0:35:22.200 you know, maybe take that time, reassess whatever the roadmap 0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:26.160 is and keep shipping. So the other part of this 0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:28.759 and this was, you know, this may be true now 0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:32.359 in January, maybe it's probably true in November because there's 0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:37.520 just an insane amount of like institutional money coming into 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:40.399 the space. And last week there was a report that 0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:43.919 in Teresent Horowitz, which raised has a huge crypto fund, 0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:46.040 has been into the space for a long time, there's 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:48.800 a report that their rate looking to raise like another 0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:52.200 four and a half billion for another crypto fund. We'll 0:35:52.200 --> 0:35:54.319 see if that comes together. But is there really like 0:35:54.400 --> 0:35:57.239 I mean, I guess there's questions like is their capacity 0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:01.839 like right now can money that scale be put to use? 0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:05.520 Is there enough need for that much capital? Or if 0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:08.680 you have a good project as a builder, like is 0:36:08.719 --> 0:36:11.520 it really like all the options are on your side, 0:36:11.560 --> 0:36:14.040 like what is the who has the power right now? 0:36:14.080 --> 0:36:16.400 And is there really is there really used for that 0:36:16.480 --> 0:36:19.279 much cash coming into the space. I would say there is. 0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:21.760 You know, there's a lot of projects that continue to raise, 0:36:21.920 --> 0:36:24.759 whether it's you know, their seed or precede because they're 0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:26.960 just starting to out, or you know, maybe a Series 0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:29.960 B because we're a few years into their cycle. Um, 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:31.960 you know, there's a lot of opportunity to get involved, 0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:35.520 depending on what the flavor is, you know. So, um, 0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:38.399 some institutionals are more interested in defy given it's more 0:36:38.440 --> 0:36:41.440 consistent with their you know, typical finance exposure, and some 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:44.400 are more interested in protocols. And I would say protocols 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:47.320 are probably where there's more opportunity because they take longer 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:49.920 to build, and so when when an investor might be 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:52.880 thinking about, you know, the roadmap of that team. You know, 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:56.759 Ethereum took what is it now, so about six years 0:36:56.800 --> 0:37:00.400 almost six years just to really ship East too, you know, 0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:02.800 and you know, maybe there were some inefficiencies, but really 0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:06.320 it's just hard problems. It's hard cryptographic problems that requires 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:09.480 the coordination between many different teams, often global, and so 0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:11.640 I think that's the best place that we could see 0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:14.400 more investment, you know, given that the roadmap is likely 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:17.759 you know, the next decade. I have a really tough 0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:20.880 question and um you know, we talked about in the 0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:24.439 intro how there always seems to be a new use 0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:28.520 case for crypto h So, you know, we had method 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:31.600 of payment and then we kind of moved into defy 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:34.160 and then web three point Oh, what do you think 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:37.720 is the next big crypto use case or or perhaps 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:40.759 what do you think is an underappreciated use case at 0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:42.719 the moment that people are going to be talking more 0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:45.600 about in the coming years. Yeah. I have two favorites 0:37:45.640 --> 0:37:48.200 here so E and S. Like I mentioned Ethereum name 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:50.920 services UM as the universal log in I think has 0:37:50.920 --> 0:37:53.600 been untapped and you know, watching them grow over the 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:56.279 past year, grow into a dow you know, is really 0:37:56.320 --> 0:37:59.239 allowing them to flourish and so sort of surpassed the 0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:01.439 Web three community. Everyone in Web three is known about 0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:03.960 them um. But the goal is really that that could 0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:06.000 be the killer app that gets WEBB two people in, 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:08.480 because a universal login is something we can all relate to. 0:38:08.640 --> 0:38:10.400 You know, we all log into many apps and we 0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:14.800 all forget our passwords. The second is this cross chain universe. 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:18.160 So something we've seen at the graph is a lot 0:38:18.200 --> 0:38:21.680 more queries and usage of subgraphs that are more focused 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:24.279 maybe on wrapped bitcoin, so you know, creating some kind 0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:28.760 of wrapped bitcoin or solution that enables access to bitcoin 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:31.640 on ethereum or other chains. And to me, that signifies 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.040 a lot more interest from the bitcoin community to actually 0:38:34.080 --> 0:38:36.960 get involved and defined some of these new activities or markets. 0:38:37.000 --> 0:38:38.960 So whether that's investing in n f t s or 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:42.480 maybe actually just doing some investing in utility tokens um. 0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:46.080 Seeing that growth in wrapped bitcoin and wrapped tokens um 0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:49.839 signifies a much more mature smart contract ecosystem. UM, So 0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:52.959 folks not only interested in the typical Bitcoin use case 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:56.319 of you know, hard money, but also seeing that there's 0:38:56.360 --> 0:38:58.160 a bigger world here and a lot more opportunity to 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:01.800 get involved. Well, Eva, that was great. I've always wanted 0:39:01.840 --> 0:39:05.000 to learn more about the work that you do and can, 0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.399 but you gotta I gotta get back. I really miss 0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:11.400 like the morning saying GM in the e girl a discord, 0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.040 So I don't know what happened, but if it still exists, 0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:15.799 I really want to come back yet. Okay, I will 0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:17.839 make sure you're invited back in, Tracy, do you also 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:21.600 want to join? You know? I think, okay, I'll come in. 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:23.239 But this is a lot of pressure because now I 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:25.200 have to think what my avatar is and what my 0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:28.120 I'm going to join on the pseud anonymous basis as 0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:34.040 like yeah, yeah, I gotta go choose my ape. So 0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:37.479 it's a lot of pressure. Yeah, exactly, all right, Well, 0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:40.440 Eva Balan, thank you so much for coming out on 0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:43.000 odd Lots. Thank you so much for having me with 0:39:43.040 --> 0:40:01.360 the pleasure. Thank you, Eva. That was great, Trazy, I 0:40:01.360 --> 0:40:04.080 thought that conversation was really fun. I really don't know 0:40:04.120 --> 0:40:07.040 how you could like look at like the website of 0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:10.080 Eager Capital and see this investment collective of like all 0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:13.799 these cartoon characters and part of their investments are like 0:40:14.239 --> 0:40:16.920 like on their like portfolio page or a bunch of 0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:19.080 n f T s, And even if you think the 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:21.080 whole thing is kind of nuts, like it seems pretty 0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:25.000 fun and cool. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I don't 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:28.439 want to get too profound about it, but maybe it's 0:40:28.440 --> 0:40:34.279 a really nice like due diligence test where if you 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:36.680 saw a bunch of cartoon characters saying that they were 0:40:36.800 --> 0:40:39.680 investing in all this random stuff, you would be like, well, 0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:42.040 I have no idea if they're serious or not, because 0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:44.279 you know, one is a frog and the other one 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.719 is nape and another's an anime character or whatever. But 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:50.759 if you actually looked at what each of them is 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:55.120 doing and saying and understood whether or not what they 0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:57.160 were saying was making sense, and whether or not they 0:40:57.160 --> 0:41:00.400 were making intelligent commentary on the space, I feel like 0:41:00.440 --> 0:41:03.960 that's actually probably a better method of due diligence than 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:08.480 seeing like Mark Anderson is investing in whatever startup and 0:41:08.560 --> 0:41:10.600 so it must be really good, which seems to be 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:14.400 what a lot of people do nowadays. No, I totally agree, 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:17.400 and it's exactly right. Like if you know, like I 0:41:17.400 --> 0:41:20.200 said in the beginning, a lot of the people over 0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:22.759 the last you know, We've been following this space for years, 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:24.920 but a lot of the people who I've been following 0:41:24.960 --> 0:41:27.080 and really like must read their stuff, I have no 0:41:27.120 --> 0:41:31.600 idea who they are. They're completely undocked, their pseudonymous, but 0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:36.080 like they've broken through, and in Crypto specifically, I would say, also, 0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:38.359 you know, I think what did what was the term 0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:40.719 that evil years, like anti suit or something like that, 0:41:40.760 --> 0:41:44.000 like we're suits, But they said, like a lot of 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:46.600 the people who I think, like frankly speak the most 0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:51.440 nonsense and speaking total jargon, are exactly like suits and 0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:54.680 people who like it's like I don't trust you, And 0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:57.880 so I do think, like Crypto, the whole world like 0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:02.239 short of flips on its head. Where where credibility comes from, 0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:05.640 where credibility has earned? Yeah, And actually, I mean this 0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:08.520 has been a challenge for us on all plots because 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:11.239 there have been anonymous people that we want to get 0:42:11.280 --> 0:42:14.000 on the show, especially to talk around n f T s, 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:17.520 and it's hard for us to get them on because 0:42:17.560 --> 0:42:19.560 you know, even if they don't want to docks themselves 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:22.239 on the show. Um, and it's a bit difficult for 0:42:22.280 --> 0:42:24.920 us to have totally anonymous people, but if they give 0:42:25.000 --> 0:42:28.520 us an audio recording, you know, unless we like try 0:42:28.560 --> 0:42:31.640 to disguise the voice. Um, there's still a concern that 0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:34.239 they might docks themselves. But UM, I don't know. Maybe 0:42:34.280 --> 0:42:36.440 if anyone has any good ideas for getting around that, 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:38.920 we would be all ears. The other thing I want 0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:40.920 to say is, you know, we're talking about the difference 0:42:40.960 --> 0:42:46.799 between people who just like sort of babble in technical jargon, um, 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:50.319 try to sound like they're knowledgeable versus people who are 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:53.279 actually able to explain this stuff in a clear way. 0:42:53.400 --> 0:42:57.840 And I thought Eva's definition of what you know Web 0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:01.719 three point oh is what true do Centralization is, as 0:43:01.800 --> 0:43:06.200 this right to exit is a really simple and intuitive 0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:11.279 way of thinking about it. Yeah, the idea of like 0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:14.960 that you could like, okay, you have this data or 0:43:15.000 --> 0:43:18.400 you have to use at cliche term that's or some 0:43:18.520 --> 0:43:21.080 jarget that's coming back, like the so called social graph, 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:23.200 and the idea that you could move it, and the 0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:25.879 idea that not one company could control it and could 0:43:25.880 --> 0:43:28.759 be somewhere else. It's very powerful. I still feel like, 0:43:29.080 --> 0:43:32.160 you know, it's like, look, we're all like tweeting, even tweeting. 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:35.440 The other girls are tweeting their discords or sorry discord 0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:39.120 and cetera. Like there's still an incredible reliance on we 0:43:39.239 --> 0:43:42.160 have two tools, and I don't know, like it's still 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:45.319 really hard for me to like envision like what the 0:43:45.400 --> 0:43:47.880 decentralized version of all this is going to be. Like 0:43:48.000 --> 0:43:49.560 I get n f t s, I get like having 0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:51.560 a wallet with like showing your n f t s, 0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:54.400 But that's different than like updating something that would be 0:43:54.440 --> 0:43:57.400 equivalent to a tweet, or sending something a message that 0:43:57.400 --> 0:43:59.120 would be there would be the equivalent to an email. 0:43:59.640 --> 0:44:02.120 So I still have some part of me that's like 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:04.359 has a hard time wrapping around like what the decentralized 0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:07.960 Internet really looks like. But you know, I don't get 0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:09.920 most of this stuff anyway, so I wouldn't necessarily hold 0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:13.279 that against them. Well, to me, that the data is 0:44:13.320 --> 0:44:15.960 the is the important issue here and the thing that 0:44:16.000 --> 0:44:17.960 has the big question mark around it. Right, So if 0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:19.719 you have the right to exit, you have the right 0:44:19.760 --> 0:44:22.439 to take all this data with you. And historically Web 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:26.279 two point oh has been run on proprietary data. That's 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:29.279 how people make money. My question is like how does 0:44:29.320 --> 0:44:33.920 that transform into companies that are actually making profits? And Okay, 0:44:33.960 --> 0:44:36.160 maybe you don't need everyone to be making a profit 0:44:36.200 --> 0:44:39.440 in the same way that Facebook and Google and whoever 0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:41.880 have traditionally been making profits. But it seems like you 0:44:41.920 --> 0:44:45.319 still have to have some sort of monetization in order 0:44:45.400 --> 0:44:49.600 to incentivize people to come in and build this stuff. 0:44:49.680 --> 0:44:52.080 But I mean, on the other hand, it does seem 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:53.680 like there are a lot of people who are interested 0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:56.799 in building it right now, and there's certainly a lot 0:44:56.800 --> 0:44:59.960 of money pouring into the space without that monetization question 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.640 actually having been answered in detail, So maybe that's on 0:45:03.680 --> 0:45:06.960 its way. Who knows. And I certainly believe Eva what 0:45:07.120 --> 0:45:09.120 she says that even with the recent selling and so 0:45:09.200 --> 0:45:12.000 many coins basically being cut in half, that these sort 0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:15.160 of like impulse to build and invest is still going strong. 0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:18.799 It feels like, I'm I don't think we're going to 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:21.480 have like an actually like crypto winter or everyone sort 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:24.319 of like forgets about cryptover three years the way we 0:45:24.400 --> 0:45:28.040 did starting. No, it does feel like there's so many 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:30.640 people and so much money in the space and it's 0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:33.319 almost its own belief system at this point that it's 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:37.400 really hard for it to go away totally. Great, All right, 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:40.160 shall we leave it there, Let's see it there? Okay, 0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:43.280 this has been another episode of the all Thoughts podcast. 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:46.040 I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:49.160 Tracy Alloway and I'm Joey Isn't Thought. You can follow 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:52.480 me on Twitter at The Stalwart. Follow our guest Eva 0:45:52.520 --> 0:45:56.040 Bayalin she is at Eva Bayalin Fellow or producer Laura 0:45:56.080 --> 0:46:00.000 Carlson at Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg had a podcast, 0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:03.520 Francisco Leavi at Francisco Today, and check out all of 0:46:03.520 --> 0:46:07.560 our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. Thanks 0:46:07.600 --> 0:46:08.080 for listening.