Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, Hey, what's up, and welcome to let's Red
Speaker 1: Table bat. I'm Tracy t from and I'm Carl Pressley
Speaker 1: over here feeling successful. How are you feeling today about
Speaker 1: today's episode, Tracy love you know what, let me say
Speaker 1: something to you. Today's episode. Okay, today's episode kind I
Speaker 1: dare say it was beyond every day amazing. Today's episode
Speaker 1: was phenomenal because we were able to learn so much.
Speaker 1: First of all, Constance Woo is a g she is
Speaker 1: super strong. She is is I mean, she's a trailblazer.
Speaker 1: She has taken the weight of the world and her
Speaker 1: culture on her shoulders. Hello. And I just watching that episode,
Speaker 1: I was a full spectrum of emotion. I was sad,
Speaker 1: I was angry, I was exhausted. I mean, you think
Speaker 1: about it, it was all of that. It really was,
Speaker 1: because here's this woman who is just wanting to be
Speaker 1: an actor, she just wants to share her skill with
Speaker 1: the world, and she has the burden of her whole
Speaker 1: culture and community and they have no dang on idea
Speaker 1: what she was enduring silently, privately, painfully, and I just
Speaker 1: hearing it and seeing her, I mean virtually in tears. Yeah,
Speaker 1: before she could get. I mean, it was like immediate.
Speaker 1: I just felt for her. This is why people don't
Speaker 1: explain what they're going through though, because they feel like
Speaker 1: they have to to be understood or heard or listen to.
Speaker 1: And I mean, at the end of the day, I
Speaker 1: appreciate her for sharing her story. I appreciate this episode.
Speaker 1: Like we definitely in society focus on like falling in
Speaker 1: love and having everything go your way and I be
Speaker 1: ideal and baby. This season the Red Table Talk, we
Speaker 1: are talking about falling off, falling to the side. We
Speaker 1: are using new languages of alienation, estrangement, isolation. People are
Speaker 1: going through things, and we've got to share these stories
Speaker 1: because and that's the real talk of it, right, No
Speaker 1: one's real talk. Real talk. People need to see this,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole idea of suffering and silence needs
Speaker 1: to be over because if you can be a keyboard
Speaker 1: cowboy and you know wrangeling people and you haven't even
Speaker 1: seen them, you don't know them from Adam, you should
Speaker 1: be able to watch a show like Red Tape Talk
Speaker 1: and understand these are people. You're dealing with humans and
Speaker 1: emotions and you don't know what that person is. Stop
Speaker 1: stop it. If you can't say something positive, then you know,
Speaker 1: maybe you don't need to say because you don't know.
Speaker 1: You truly do not know what people are going through
Speaker 1: out here. We are at the very beginning of fall,
Speaker 1: headed into winter, and I don't know if you've heard
Speaker 1: about it. People go through seasonal depression all the time,
Speaker 1: and things like this are because why because they feel
Speaker 1: like they can't speak their truth. So I'm happy that
Speaker 1: she's speaking her truth and we are speaking ours, and
Speaker 1: we are gonna table all of this in this episode
Speaker 1: you on. One of the things I also love about
Speaker 1: this episode is that not only are we connected because
Speaker 1: it's red table talking and let's red table there, but
Speaker 1: you have a connection with Constance. Who do you listen?
Speaker 1: She is from Richmond, Virginia, I mean right here, in
Speaker 1: the same city and state. We didn't go to the
Speaker 1: same high school, but we were in the same district.
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys literally were literally the same time.
Speaker 1: She was born in eighty two, so was I. I
Speaker 1: read and saw that her father taught at VCU, a
Speaker 1: local college. That's why she was here. But she went
Speaker 1: to Freeman. I went to Verona High School. Did you
Speaker 1: guys ever compete? I do know for sure our football
Speaker 1: team definitely beat hers. That's what I do know. You know,
Speaker 1: constant trying to talk about it. Let me know, but
Speaker 1: okay constantly. I don't think you need to let her
Speaker 1: have that. We need some listen. I know, I know
Speaker 1: Varona High School definitely beat your tip. I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to look up the school. I'm gonna finding Constant. You
Speaker 1: come out here and get cars. Listen, we have love
Speaker 1: for you. That was a yons ago, many many men
Speaker 1: years ago. Now it's time to share what our online
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk community has to say about this episode. Carl,
Speaker 1: we had so many fantastic comments. You want to read
Speaker 1: the person I will. Michelle Miranda st. Clair said, I
Speaker 1: come from the Asian community, and the community's response does
Speaker 1: not surprise me. So much is wrong with how we
Speaker 1: blame the victim. Constance, Good for you for speaking about this. Yes,
Speaker 1: I appreciate that as well. I'm glad Constance decided to say,
Speaker 1: let me just tell my story. Super important. That is
Speaker 1: so important. And you know, we got another fantastic response
Speaker 1: from Rocio Salazar and Roto. You said, I did not
Speaker 1: know she went through so much pain and hurt. I
Speaker 1: loved crazy rich Asians and fresh off the boat. I
Speaker 1: hope she continues to grow and I wish nothing but
Speaker 1: the best for her. Thank you so much for those
Speaker 1: wonderfully loving comments. We need that, we need to send
Speaker 1: her light and love. Yes, we definitely agree. Another comment, Wow,
Speaker 1: she's a warrior. Thank you for sharing constance. It must
Speaker 1: have been terrifying facing so much hate and dealing with
Speaker 1: so much internal suffering. Protect your peace against all odds.
Speaker 1: And the praying hands emoji and this is from Nikki
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Hobbs. Yes, Nick elizabeths Hodds, I am with you
Speaker 1: with the praying hands. We also know that those hands
Speaker 1: were supposed five. Yeah, we've just taken over. I thought
Speaker 1: about that for we just made them praying hands, praying hands,
Speaker 1: and high five all in that same comment. So fantastic.
Speaker 1: We appreciate that comment too. And Melissa dar Pino says
Speaker 1: she kept apologizing for crying when there was no need to.
Speaker 1: I'm over here balling for her all. Sometimes tears are necessary.
Speaker 1: I understand that the cathartic there's they're so you get
Speaker 1: released from that purge of crying. So I get it.
Speaker 1: I was crying with her, Melissa, you and me both
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, but when we
Speaker 1: get back, we will be joined by two incredible guests
Speaker 1: from our Red Table Talk community, and today we're bringing
Speaker 1: to fellow URTT community members to the virtual Red Table Listen.
Speaker 1: Alice Soy is a music teacher and social activists in
Speaker 1: New York City who's in passion speech at a New
Speaker 1: York City Stop Asian hate rally went viral last year.
Speaker 1: Alice started seeing her mental health as a priority only recently,
Speaker 1: in part because of the pandemic. I think like a
Speaker 1: lot of us, And she's here today to share about
Speaker 1: her mental health journey and the difference therapy has made
Speaker 1: in her life. Thank you Alice for joining us today
Speaker 1: or less Red Table that's yes, Thank you, Alice, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Dr Jenny Wang is an author and licensed psychologists specialized
Speaker 1: in helping her clients understand the impact of racial trauma
Speaker 1: and racial identity on their mental health. Her new book,
Speaker 1: Permission to Come Home is a guide for Asian Americans
Speaker 1: as well as other marginalized people for prioritizing their mental
Speaker 1: health while understanding and honoring the richness of their heritage
Speaker 1: and embodying a new, complete and whole identity. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the virtual Red Table. Dr Jenny. I love that the
Speaker 1: whole identity. We need to make sure we have whole identities.
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here with us today, and thank
Speaker 1: you both for having this time and sharing the space
Speaker 1: with us. Yeah, We're gonna get into some conversations. I'm
Speaker 1: excited about it. So let's get into it. It is
Speaker 1: time for the part of the show where we reveal
Speaker 1: which moments made us pause. I mean really rewind, stop
Speaker 1: and listen again and say, wait, what now? What was
Speaker 1: that exactly? So let's talk about it. So Constance revealing
Speaker 1: that she kept her on set harassment of secret because
Speaker 1: she didn't want to sully the reputation of Fresh off
Speaker 1: the Boat or Asian Americans attached to the show. And
Speaker 1: the thing that was most painful was he was so
Speaker 1: derogatory and harassing towards me. But because this show was
Speaker 1: sort of a beacon of representation for Asian Americans and
Speaker 1: I sort of became a symbol of representation, I didn't
Speaker 1: want to sully the one show with sexual harassment claims
Speaker 1: against the one Asian American Nair who was doing all
Speaker 1: this better work for the community. Have you ever been
Speaker 1: in a situation like this where you felt like you
Speaker 1: couldn't speak up because you valued the reputation of another
Speaker 1: person or a company over your pain. You know, I
Speaker 1: think as women we are protectors. We are people who
Speaker 1: want to shield others from pain, from harm, from a
Speaker 1: sully reputation. And I think that as Asian Americans, we
Speaker 1: have watched our parents do that for us, right, They've
Speaker 1: protected at us, They've kept their mouth shut because it
Speaker 1: could cost them a lot, could cost their livelihoods. And
Speaker 1: so I think that in many ways I was modeled
Speaker 1: that as a child, in being a child of immigrants,
Speaker 1: being Asian American, and being a daughter, I was taught
Speaker 1: that you actually shouldn't speak up, you should actually swallow
Speaker 1: the suffering because that actually was seen as a strength
Speaker 1: in our culture sometimes and being the strong person was
Speaker 1: at times more important than being the honest person. Oh
Speaker 1: that's powerful, Dr Jenny, Thank you for that too, because
Speaker 1: I'm as I'm like rethinking about it. It's like we
Speaker 1: protect others, and then who protects us? Right? So, like
Speaker 1: where is the handoff? And then how can we both
Speaker 1: be protected in this and honor our culture and honor
Speaker 1: how hard it was to get to this point Alice,
Speaker 1: have you experienced anything like that at all? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: actually was gonna see something very similar to Dr Jenny,
Speaker 1: because that idea of in Chinese culture swallowing bitterness should cool.
Speaker 1: It means literally that you just take the pain and
Speaker 1: you silence yourself. So even if I did want to
Speaker 1: speak up for or to help my parents in moments
Speaker 1: where I felt that they were discriminated against, I didn't
Speaker 1: know that I could just in my own parents eyes.
Speaker 1: And so with that being so pervasive in Asian American culture,
Speaker 1: even though I am the oldest sibling, there's so much
Speaker 1: that we are burdened with in a way that I
Speaker 1: think can make that difficult. And having internalized that for
Speaker 1: so long, how can we then speak up? Right? Who
Speaker 1: are we speaking up for? If that is against everything
Speaker 1: that we've learned? Right? The oxymoronic position of being in
Speaker 1: a land where you're taught to stand up for your
Speaker 1: rights and fight, and then culturally being taught not to
Speaker 1: do that is unbelievably complicated. Yeah. Willow pointed out that
Speaker 1: the reaction to Constance's tweets wouldn't have been so visceral
Speaker 1: if there were more sources of Asian American representation in
Speaker 1: mainstream media. I feel like the reaction wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: as visceral if there were more representation beforehand. I think
Speaker 1: you hit it on the nose. I think it's because
Speaker 1: it's because of the laugh there of people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is all had. I personally would agree that it
Speaker 1: is really hard to be in such a position. I
Speaker 1: can only imagine that Constance was in where there were
Speaker 1: so many harsh reactions and actual named also within the
Speaker 1: Asian American community. I feel that in my own experience
Speaker 1: when I have spoken out personally, I received the most
Speaker 1: backlash from Asian American people and also to be specific,
Speaker 1: Asian American men who really really had a tough time
Speaker 1: just with an Asian American woman speaking out. It's very
Speaker 1: much against what we in society have internalized about Asian
Speaker 1: womain being obedient or soft spoken. These tropes and unfortunate norms,
Speaker 1: I suppose that have continued over time. So I also
Speaker 1: wonder than what additional burdens that she had to carry
Speaker 1: that even though she was able to have this discourse
Speaker 1: with everyone, that we still are unaware of, and what
Speaker 1: does she continue to carry and what is swallowed? What
Speaker 1: else is swallowed. What was the word that you used
Speaker 1: for swallow bitterness in Chinese? It's cool cool m h.
Speaker 1: You just silence yourself and you take it. Dr Jenny,
Speaker 1: we need to get a professional medical How does this
Speaker 1: impact your medical health and well being? Absolutely when we
Speaker 1: think about the importance of voice in psychology, the importance
Speaker 1: of being able to self advocate, to even just speak
Speaker 1: honestly about our experiences, and in many shapes and forms,
Speaker 1: that being prohibited because that might bring shame upon your culture,
Speaker 1: your community, your family. And so that idea of too
Speaker 1: cool it comes from generational trauma because Asians in their
Speaker 1: homelands were subjected to colonialism, were subjected to occupation. Coming
Speaker 1: from Taiwan, my parents lived under martial law where if
Speaker 1: you said anything, you could be taken away and you
Speaker 1: would disappear in the middle of the night. So think
Speaker 1: about what that means in terms of the psychology of
Speaker 1: people who live under a Russian for decades, and often
Speaker 1: as immigrants. We then come to a new country and
Speaker 1: it's still terrifying. You know, when my mother came here,
Speaker 1: she couldn't speak English. So the thought of answering the
Speaker 1: phone and having to say hello and then not knowing
Speaker 1: what that person was saying, not knowing if potentially our
Speaker 1: visa was up, not knowing if your electricity was going
Speaker 1: to be cut off. Those were things where you're under
Speaker 1: a state of constant fear. And so I think that
Speaker 1: fear also grips us as a community, a fear of invisibility.
Speaker 1: This was our chance, right and they said that in
Speaker 1: the in the interview, this was our one chance to
Speaker 1: really have some sort of representation and to not be grateful,
Speaker 1: to not be willing to suck it up for our community.
Speaker 1: And that's the heartbreaking part of this is nobody knew
Speaker 1: what she was going through. That part it's hard to
Speaker 1: put together the fact that this isn't just like people
Speaker 1: minimizing what she's going through and ignoring her, like in
Speaker 1: her circle of entertainment, or as people say, like being
Speaker 1: black bobbed, like the entire culture altogether just we're done
Speaker 1: with it. Bless her heart. Yeah, I wanted to know.
Speaker 1: How do you think people would have reacted if they
Speaker 1: had known what she was going through? I think the
Speaker 1: optimistic side of me would have hoped that people could
Speaker 1: offer her compassion and empathy and rallied behind her and said,
Speaker 1: my goodness, what you've had to subject yourself to in
Speaker 1: order to carry our community forward. But to be honest,
Speaker 1: I think some people would have still criticized her, would
Speaker 1: have still found ways to pull her down, And that
Speaker 1: I think is the most heartbreaking part of all this. Right, Alice,
Speaker 1: you shared about how when you spoke up, people from
Speaker 1: our own community spoke out again to you. Right, and
Speaker 1: I just I agree with you, and I think that
Speaker 1: when we whenever we are a first in anything, first
Speaker 1: to be a representative, even if we don't necessarily see
Speaker 1: ourselves in that light, they will inevitably be pressure that
Speaker 1: is placed on us, pressure that we didn't call for ourselves.
Speaker 1: I even think back to moments of the rally when
Speaker 1: I was the first Asian American woman to speak at
Speaker 1: that event, when you looked at my face and shot
Speaker 1: away from my games. People were terrified of my nesk
Speaker 1: and two eyes used to regard me by my Asian persuasion.
Speaker 1: I reminded us that we're all part of one nation.
Speaker 1: We're sprunting animositys and the black eyed peace. Can I
Speaker 1: have some peace with my black eyes? Please? I think
Speaker 1: about forty plus minutes had passed by with no female speaker,
Speaker 1: to a point where the people at the front started
Speaker 1: to get very I would describe anxious, starting to ask,
Speaker 1: when will we hear a female voice? When we really
Speaker 1: hear a female Asian American voice. It almost gave me
Speaker 1: additional pressure that, oh, I must honor this moment in
Speaker 1: a way that is beyond me, and that's really hard
Speaker 1: for anyone to shoulder. How did you manage it? I
Speaker 1: I knew that my voice is important, and even though
Speaker 1: it wasn't something that I always was taught or internalized
Speaker 1: as a kid, through my work as an educator, through
Speaker 1: my work and being with students with youth and hearing
Speaker 1: how students can share not only that their voice is important,
Speaker 1: that their voice can bring them joy, can bring them hope,
Speaker 1: can bring them justice. That has really personally inspired me
Speaker 1: to share my voice. More so, I credit that really
Speaker 1: to thinking about my students and why it is important
Speaker 1: for us to continue to share our stories, our joy,
Speaker 1: our resilience, our arts, our music, and so much more
Speaker 1: of our humanity. Mm hmmm mm hmmmm. I love that
Speaker 1: for you, Alice, because how many people just haven't found
Speaker 1: their voice yet, you know, or still are holding onto
Speaker 1: that just that I hate to say, burden. You do
Speaker 1: want to honor your culture, but what will they think
Speaker 1: of me still considering other people's opinions and emotions and
Speaker 1: considerations outside of what you truly need as well to
Speaker 1: honor your own self and your own culture, Like what
Speaker 1: can I do to add my piece to it? And
Speaker 1: you did it and you're doing it so I love
Speaker 1: that for both of you. As much as it is
Speaker 1: terrible and horrible for us as women of color to
Speaker 1: know what it's like to be silenced and unseen, it
Speaker 1: is also that much more riveting to be here with
Speaker 1: you too today to see that, in spite of all
Speaker 1: the things that could have stacked against you and kept
Speaker 1: you silent, you prevailed. Well. I was in tears watching
Speaker 1: the constants because to be able to sit at that
Speaker 1: table and share her absolute truth and whoever wants to
Speaker 1: talk about a suicide attempt that is probably one of
Speaker 1: the most private, painful personal things anyone can ever consider,
Speaker 1: and for her to share that, knowing all that you
Speaker 1: have shared about how important it is to honor the culture,
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine the pressure that she must have felt
Speaker 1: and still feels now to have been in a position
Speaker 1: where she openly shared that I felt like nothing I
Speaker 1: could ever do would be enough. I felt like the
Speaker 1: only thing that would prove to her that I felt
Speaker 1: as bad as she thought I deserved to feel, would
Speaker 1: would be if I died. What do you think does
Speaker 1: that add to the shame for her, that she shared
Speaker 1: that she attempted suicide. How does it not add to
Speaker 1: the shame? Right? And I think in a culture where
Speaker 1: mental health is seen as a disability, in a culture
Speaker 1: where mental health is seen as you no longer are
Speaker 1: able to care for your loved ones, it's seen as
Speaker 1: something that takes away from one's life, right, and is
Speaker 1: so stigmatized. The shame of even saying I feel sad
Speaker 1: sometimes is already really intense. And so I think for
Speaker 1: her to come out and actually say I was no
Speaker 1: longer safe, I was not in a place where I
Speaker 1: could keep myself safe, that takes such a huge step
Speaker 1: of courage for many communities of color, because the stigma
Speaker 1: is great. And so I think that when we get
Speaker 1: to a point of that type of despair, we realize
Speaker 1: that shame in silence and isolation breeds. And when she
Speaker 1: was able to have her friend help her go to
Speaker 1: the yaw are go to the hospital when she was
Speaker 1: able to speak her pain, the pain no longer wrapped
Speaker 1: the shame in a way that kept her trapped. And
Speaker 1: I think that's really powerful. That is powerful. That is
Speaker 1: really powerful. If you have not included something like that
Speaker 1: in your book yet, Dr Jenny, just go back and
Speaker 1: and incorporate that for the follow up, okay, because that
Speaker 1: that is so impactful, it really is. I'm just my
Speaker 1: mind is blowd I'm telling y'all, I literally have all
Speaker 1: these questions and things I want to keep asking because
Speaker 1: we rarely get to see behind the velvet rope of
Speaker 1: the Asian American community. Let me preface that by saying,
Speaker 1: I know neither of you are in a position where
Speaker 1: you can be the voice for the entire culture right
Speaker 1: that you can speak from your own lens and your
Speaker 1: own perspective, just like I can't say for all black
Speaker 1: women in the world. It's this. I just want to
Speaker 1: hear from you from your own perspective for what's happened
Speaker 1: since to date? How are you doing? I have so
Speaker 1: many thoughts and feelings in response to that, But Tracy,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say, first, thank you for naming
Speaker 1: that that we are not the voice for the Asian
Speaker 1: American community, because that is exactly what Constance found herself
Speaker 1: in in that position. And so I hope that as
Speaker 1: we continue to share our voices and listen to different perspectives,
Speaker 1: that we hold space for a nuance in each other's
Speaker 1: lives within our culture. And one thing in terms of
Speaker 1: thinking about stigmas to break and to just address is
Speaker 1: when she said that she felt selfish for thinking of
Speaker 1: herself first. And I feel like that's something that is
Speaker 1: so cultural as well, that we're taught not to think
Speaker 1: of ourselves first, whether it is thinking about for our
Speaker 1: family or at all. Right, absolutely that if I am
Speaker 1: thinking about myself, then I'm really not showing deference or
Speaker 1: filial piety or reverence really at that point to those
Speaker 1: who are older, the elders in my family, my lineage,
Speaker 1: my community, whoever they may be. And so how am
Speaker 1: I doing? I guess I'm trying to really disrupt all
Speaker 1: of that personally, yes, because it's it's a mix of, Yes,
Speaker 1: we still want to honor our ancestors, the things that
Speaker 1: have been passed down, things values, etcetera. But we can
Speaker 1: still also be our whole selves. And so where do
Speaker 1: we strike that balance? And I think that so often
Speaker 1: we're looking for a very cookie cutter way or a
Speaker 1: specific framework. But the truth is that it's different for
Speaker 1: all of us, and it shouldn't be the same. We
Speaker 1: really shouldn't be looking for a specific framework. And the
Speaker 1: more that we talk about ourselves and more that we
Speaker 1: have conversations and across communities, for you as black women
Speaker 1: and then ourselves as Asian women, that is in itself
Speaker 1: so important for us to just disrust up whatever status
Speaker 1: quo it currently is. I love that, Dr Jenny, how
Speaker 1: are you? Oh it has been a couple of years,
Speaker 1: It is my response. I think being a mental health
Speaker 1: kind of practitioner, we almost got like an intimate lens
Speaker 1: into how people were coping not just pandemic, but you know,
Speaker 1: seeing many Asian American clients, it was pandemic plus anti
Speaker 1: Asian hate plus really that was all alongside Black Lives Matter.
Speaker 1: It was alongside so many social issues. And here in Texas,
Speaker 1: right school shootings, there were so many things that we're
Speaker 1: activating our nervous systems, having ways to cope with that
Speaker 1: that were helpful, that were small enough that I didn't
Speaker 1: have to feel exhausted to take care of myself. Right,
Speaker 1: It wasn't that I had two or three hours in
Speaker 1: a day to take care of myself. I had to
Speaker 1: find moments to do it. Maybe it was two minutes
Speaker 1: to do it because we were I mean, we were
Speaker 1: compressed from all sides. I'm hopeful because Tracy, you were
Speaker 1: saying earlier, it's a very rare experience to almost pull
Speaker 1: back the curtain in our community. And I feel like,
Speaker 1: maybe for the first time in my life, people are
Speaker 1: even interested in wanting to see behind the curtain. Okay,
Speaker 1: because for so much of my life, I felt as
Speaker 1: though people didn't even see me as having a race.
Speaker 1: I was invisible. Were the other, the other, the other category,
Speaker 1: the box that you check where you might fill in
Speaker 1: something but that may or may not matter. And I
Speaker 1: think in the last few years, with stop Asian hate
Speaker 1: and all of these concurrent things, our community kind of said,
Speaker 1: you know what, We're sick of being other. We're sick
Speaker 1: of having other people tell our stories. And I think,
Speaker 1: like Alice said, when we started to verbalize this idea
Speaker 1: that we actually had a place here that allowed us
Speaker 1: psychologically to take up space in a way that our
Speaker 1: community has never done before, and for the first time
Speaker 1: in decades, people are actually seeking out therapy and they're saying,
Speaker 1: I want to work on my racial identity. That was
Speaker 1: never a reason people sought therapy, especially Asian American clients
Speaker 1: five ten years ago. You know, I think that that
Speaker 1: needs to be a standard. Yes, that should be woven
Speaker 1: into depression treatment, that should be woven into anxiety, that
Speaker 1: should be woven into the full experience, because my guesses
Speaker 1: how you see the world and how the world sees
Speaker 1: you impacts all of those mental health components. Right, So
Speaker 1: I am tired some days, but I am so excited
Speaker 1: many days. Oh. I love that. I love that because
Speaker 1: you guys are doing the work like acknowledging your own
Speaker 1: voice in the middle of what others may assume to
Speaker 1: be a cultural voice, assumed to be You're saying, that's
Speaker 1: not exactly how I feel. And I love that for
Speaker 1: all of us. I feel like that's exactly why this
Speaker 1: podcast exists in the spirit of individuality. Is we continue
Speaker 1: to move forward. Now that we're talking about Constance wools
Speaker 1: journey and everything that's happened, What was your true reaction
Speaker 1: when the sweets happened, whether internal or external. When she
Speaker 1: first tweeted them, I would say for me, I honestly
Speaker 1: did not know how to feel. But I felt a
Speaker 1: strange pressure to have to feel something because everyone in
Speaker 1: the community was either having to feel something as well
Speaker 1: or really truly felt something. So there was this collective
Speaker 1: like what are you thinking? What are you feeling? That's happening?
Speaker 1: That was hard for me to grasp and honestly just
Speaker 1: left me more confused than anything, because at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, at a tweet, you don't have the
Speaker 1: full story. For me, as an educator, when I teach children,
Speaker 1: I remember that or I keep in mind that I
Speaker 1: only see students for X amount of time during a day.
Speaker 1: So when children as young as pre k through fifth grade,
Speaker 1: those are the the grades that I teach for music,
Speaker 1: I see them being their musical selves. I see them
Speaker 1: share of who they are. But I can never know
Speaker 1: the full story without years of relationship building and knowing
Speaker 1: their families and understand the community. So how can we
Speaker 1: make of judgment on one person's one moment and yet
Speaker 1: that still happened and continues to happen right well, because
Speaker 1: we create our own stories, we are excellent storytellers. You
Speaker 1: can just see one thing and it will ignite that
Speaker 1: flame that you make a story up. I think we
Speaker 1: all have I don't know, these preconceived notions, and we
Speaker 1: don't give people to benefit of the doubt, or we
Speaker 1: want to feel like we belong with the masses. In
Speaker 1: some cases, just go along to get along, you know.
Speaker 1: I think this is why I'm not on Twitter, because
Speaker 1: I think it feeds a frenzy within seconds, right, And
Speaker 1: it doesn't promote question asking. It promotes the labeling, the judgment,
Speaker 1: the let me analyze this five words sentence, and it
Speaker 1: does not invite people into conversation. And so when it
Speaker 1: came out, I didn't see it on Twitter because I'm
Speaker 1: not on there, but I saw it come up in
Speaker 1: social media. Right. It was like Constance will blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: And I think my initial thought was, like anything, this
Speaker 1: comes from just being a psychologist, and I always tell
Speaker 1: my kids I'm a professional question asker, that's my job,
Speaker 1: and so it just prompted questions like WHOA, this is
Speaker 1: maybe not what I expected, but I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure what would prompt her to say something like that.
Speaker 1: And I think that curiosity is often what's missing? And
Speaker 1: I think Constance said that in the episode right that
Speaker 1: had people even just took the moment to pause and say,
Speaker 1: hold on, what's going on? How is she? We would
Speaker 1: have perhaps seen more and so in for Constance, I
Speaker 1: wish we had taken a moment to just ask, just
Speaker 1: ask a simple question. This is why aimless scrolling is
Speaker 1: like dangerous right in my opinion, because I just feel like,
Speaker 1: if you're scrolling and you're not in the best place,
Speaker 1: one of those in between moments where you're trying to
Speaker 1: find a break but you're really mad about something at work,
Speaker 1: you see a tweet like that and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I can't believe she's in the best position of her
Speaker 1: how could she even start to feel Whereas like me
Speaker 1: just personally because I'm normally minding my business. When I
Speaker 1: read it, I was like, oh, she probably just didn't
Speaker 1: want to end vacation, Like clearly she's off work, and
Speaker 1: that's so Perspective is so important, Diversity of thoughts is
Speaker 1: so important. The National Latino and Asian American Study reported
Speaker 1: that while eighteen percent of general US population sought mental
Speaker 1: health services and resources in recent years, only eight point
Speaker 1: six percent of Asian Americans did, so, Dr Jenny, can
Speaker 1: you explain some reasons why this could be absolutely? I
Speaker 1: think we can start with what we've talked about before,
Speaker 1: which is the stigma and shame associated with mental illness,
Speaker 1: and when culturally there is a framing that any kind
Speaker 1: of even touch mentioned inference to mental health is then
Speaker 1: seen as severe mental illness. I grew up hearing people say, oh,
Speaker 1: well that person is just crazy. Right. You go from
Speaker 1: like I'm struggling to this person can't be a functioning
Speaker 1: member of society, and that escalation creates such a strong
Speaker 1: framing that I don't ever want to be there. That's scary, right,
Speaker 1: And so to admit mental health struggle is the first part. Right.
Speaker 1: If you can't admit that you're struggling, there's no way
Speaker 1: you can move forward and seek help. So I think
Speaker 1: unwrapping from the stigma and the shame is the first piece.
Speaker 1: But I think being Asian American and operating under model
Speaker 1: minority myth also created an another level of pressure because
Speaker 1: model minority myth is this idea where Asian Americans are
Speaker 1: this caricature monolith where we're all super high, achieving, hard
Speaker 1: working to just have it all together in this world. Well,
Speaker 1: if that is the narrative for your community, then how
Speaker 1: would you ever want to step outside of that and say, no,
Speaker 1: actually I don't have my stuff together. I'm struggling and
Speaker 1: I need help. So I think that is an added
Speaker 1: layer that comes from outside our community, because people outside
Speaker 1: of us are viewing us under that stereotype. And then
Speaker 1: I think there's kind of to two additional pieces. One
Speaker 1: is that being a person of color, where you may
Speaker 1: not speak the language, you may not understand the medical system,
Speaker 1: you have lots of mistrust for a system that is
Speaker 1: kind of scary at times, what is going to bring
Speaker 1: you to the doors of a often white psychologist, often
Speaker 1: white psychiatrist. And there's also fears a lot from people
Speaker 1: who have come from war torn regions, like the idea
Speaker 1: of sitting down for an intake and this person asking
Speaker 1: you all these questions that in itself can remind you
Speaker 1: of times where you were interrogated under political regimes. So
Speaker 1: there are lots of kind of connections to that power
Speaker 1: differential that I think Western psychology does not do a
Speaker 1: very good job of dismantling. And then let me tell you, right,
Speaker 1: cultural competency was one course in my entire doctorate training program,
Speaker 1: you serious, and that one course during one semester, did
Speaker 1: not ever talk about Asian Americans. They did not talk
Speaker 1: about Latin X, they didn't talk about a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of communities, and they did not talk to us about
Speaker 1: how to interface with communities that were different from ourselves.
Speaker 1: And then is it safe to safe? What they said
Speaker 1: could also have been completely incorrect, exactly right, because the
Speaker 1: models of training were informed by white Western models. So
Speaker 1: I think there's that mismatch of providers then, who truly
Speaker 1: can care for our communities in ways that are effective?
Speaker 1: And one example is power differential in Asian society is
Speaker 1: a big one hierarchy. So yes, doctor, whatever you say, doctor,
Speaker 1: if you tell me to do it, I will do it.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't work in a therapeutic relationship when you're
Speaker 1: trying to empower your clients make their own decisions. And
Speaker 1: so that model of setting it up where the therapist
Speaker 1: is the expert cannot be effective with many communities of color.
Speaker 1: And really quick shout out to text therapy because I
Speaker 1: enjoyed text therapy and Jenny, by you saying the interrogation
Speaker 1: vibe sometimes of the therapist session. That is very much
Speaker 1: a thing, and sometime people just need help. I know
Speaker 1: that constant shared at the table that she swallowed her
Speaker 1: abuse and just endured it right, just displaying an emotional
Speaker 1: stoicism that was super not healthy. I probably do it
Speaker 1: myself now that I'm the more I read this and
Speaker 1: listen to this, I'm like, Okay, that sounds like me.
Speaker 1: So Alice, I know you recently shared a blog post
Speaker 1: about a similar idea, which was unlearning this emotional suppression.
Speaker 1: Can you share more about what that journey has looked
Speaker 1: like for you, because I'm personally all ears. Yeah. Actually,
Speaker 1: like quote Dr Jenny in this blog post and the
Speaker 1: quote that I shared of hers was that emotional stoicism
Speaker 1: and Asian culture is not a deficit or shortcoming. It
Speaker 1: was a protective mechanism against the brutality of poverty, colonization, trauma,
Speaker 1: and dire life circumstances that our parents and ancestors only
Speaker 1: hoped to survive. I mean, iift away from blame for
Speaker 1: their lack of emotional engagement towards a posture of compassion
Speaker 1: and wonder why they had to shut down their emotional
Speaker 1: life in the first place. And this particular quote really
Speaker 1: resonated with me because for me, as an Asian American
Speaker 1: and I'm also a child of immigrants, I learned at
Speaker 1: a really young age to suppress my emotions, so whatever
Speaker 1: I felt didn't really matter in the larger context of
Speaker 1: what my family was doing in order to survive. So
Speaker 1: I learned from a very young age that crying was weak,
Speaker 1: that showing any emotion was weak, that anything that could
Speaker 1: be read as positive wasn't necessarily to be shown from
Speaker 1: an exterior position, and that could be of celebrations as well.
Speaker 1: So I literally learned to silence all emotions from a
Speaker 1: very young age and to just do as told obey.
Speaker 1: Essentially and in certain ways already subscribed to norms that
Speaker 1: Asian American women have in our society. But for me
Speaker 1: it was really important, upon again teaching being a big
Speaker 1: part of my life and just my personhood, to learn
Speaker 1: what it is to feel in my initial therapy sessions,
Speaker 1: and I also had a long search for an Asian
Speaker 1: American therapist who would serve me because I just did
Speaker 1: not feel comfortable with going to someone who had a
Speaker 1: different racial identity where I would have to explain things too.
Speaker 1: But some of our initial conversations was just what is
Speaker 1: it that I was feeling? And I couldn't necessarily even
Speaker 1: articulate what it was that I felt, because when someone
Speaker 1: asked you, how are you feeling, right, it's just the
Speaker 1: answer that we are used to a society is I'm good,
Speaker 1: how about you? Right? And there's nothing further. But if
Speaker 1: I really dug deep, what is it that I was feeling?
Speaker 1: And it was almost like learning how to communicate again
Speaker 1: and and understanding, oh, when I use feelings words like
Speaker 1: when I teach, it's beyond sad and happy, Perhaps this disappointed,
Speaker 1: Perhaps it is frustrated, right, and where is the root
Speaker 1: of all of that? So it took a lot of
Speaker 1: continuous and continues to take peeling of different layers, and
Speaker 1: for me, I always rooted it back to things that
Speaker 1: can make me feel joy, just to be able to
Speaker 1: be part of that healing process, and as a music
Speaker 1: teacher that is in music and also thinking about how
Speaker 1: can I empower future Asian American children too be able
Speaker 1: to have this conversation already. That made me create a
Speaker 1: book that talks about what it means to feel and
Speaker 1: send her time within the book to just literally have
Speaker 1: a child feel something and let that be visual and
Speaker 1: let that be seen and heard and talks about. So
Speaker 1: that's really important. And I wrote that in my book
Speaker 1: We are Golden Um and it's the powerfulness For me.
Speaker 1: I'm just loving it. Dr Jenny. I feel proud to
Speaker 1: know and that you're here together. We had no idea
Speaker 1: about the connection that you have and for what you're doing.
Speaker 1: And you said I actually used a quote from Dr Jenny.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my gosh, that is this perfect Alice.
Speaker 1: As a leader in the Stop Asian Hate movement, how
Speaker 1: do you manage the feeling that people have certain expectations
Speaker 1: of you? For me, I feel that no matter what
Speaker 1: I do, whether it is as a leader in the
Speaker 1: Stop Asian Hate movement, which by the way, really should
Speaker 1: be activate Asian Power, Activate Asian Joy movement, not just
Speaker 1: stopping something, I will always have expectations placed on me.
Speaker 1: And for me, I just route myself back in why
Speaker 1: I spoke in the first place and what is my why?
Speaker 1: I think that's something that is so important to continue
Speaker 1: thinking about. What is our why? When we do anything?
Speaker 1: Is our why? Self fulfilling? Is it for the community?
Speaker 1: Can it be both? And I think I really seek
Speaker 1: something that is more complete and whole, where I can
Speaker 1: share this aspect of my experience, I can share the
Speaker 1: stage and invite different people within the Asian American diaspora
Speaker 1: identify as East Asian and specifically Chinese, specifically American born Chinese.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of very specific things, but within American culture,
Speaker 1: American born Chinese folks have a lot of platform in
Speaker 1: comparison to so much of our diaspora. So what does
Speaker 1: it mean to not just have my voice there but
Speaker 1: also invite different voices within our community to share the stage,
Speaker 1: and not just share the stage, but share the conversation
Speaker 1: that goes beyond our diaspora. And it's really intersectional. As
Speaker 1: an Asian American women teaching black and Latin X youth,
Speaker 1: that is something that when people here that have a
Speaker 1: lot of issue with it have definitely damned me, commented
Speaker 1: on and continue to yes. Yes, It's almost like, well,
Speaker 1: why can't I care both for Asian community members and
Speaker 1: for Black children and for Latin X children. And I'm
Speaker 1: only naming racial differences so we can have compassion for
Speaker 1: all of our communities. Because if we really look beyond
Speaker 1: the history books that white folks have written over time,
Speaker 1: we can find the intersections where even the term Asian
Speaker 1: American is inspired by the Civil rights movement, So how
Speaker 1: can there not have been any connection in that? Right?
Speaker 1: Who knows the history of Malcolm X and your e Coachiyama?
Speaker 1: And so much of what I continue to advocate for
Speaker 1: is full or representation, but in the form of Asian
Speaker 1: American history being time schools and not just as an
Speaker 1: isolated chapter or as an isolated book. But how is
Speaker 1: this connected to all of our histories and not just
Speaker 1: a monthly celebration. Right, definitely not, because as I tell
Speaker 1: my students, we can celebrate our heritage within a month,
Speaker 1: but our heritages are meant to be celebrated all year round,
Speaker 1: every year our whole lives, and so people will always
Speaker 1: have expectations. But I just seek to continue dismantling the
Speaker 1: status quote because the status quote just simply is not
Speaker 1: enough to serve us at this moment. And again, I
Speaker 1: also seek to amplify youth. I often now call myself
Speaker 1: an amplifier before I even think about myself as an educator,
Speaker 1: because if we really put them make up to children,
Speaker 1: children will tell you, and we as adults must listen.
Speaker 1: We must listen to what it is that they want
Speaker 1: for their future. And it is my job as an
Speaker 1: educator then to make sure that I use my power
Speaker 1: to amplify their voices in different spaces. Oh I love that.
Speaker 1: That is so powerful. Come on, amplifier. Imagine what it
Speaker 1: would be like if it was instead of stop Asian hate,
Speaker 1: that it was amplify or activate Asian love. That's so
Speaker 1: good that put it on a T shirt. I love
Speaker 1: it and we are more than just a T shirt quote.
Speaker 1: I just I didn't want to minimize the moment. I
Speaker 1: just love it. Guys, cal we love you. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: tell you something. We could talk. I literally, I mean
Speaker 1: for hours and hours and hours. I have grown. I
Speaker 1: have really given myself. This is some challenging work, but
Speaker 1: you have to make the investment. And so I'm so
Speaker 1: grateful to both of you. Dr Jenny and Alice, thank
Speaker 1: you both so much for being here with us at
Speaker 1: the virtual Red Table. Thank you, thank you. We want
Speaker 1: to know how you are feeling about this new season
Speaker 1: or Red Table Talk. We are open to talk about
Speaker 1: any and everything with you, so please send in your
Speaker 1: questions because we read them every single one. The email
Speaker 1: address is Let's Red Table that at red table talk
Speaker 1: dot com. And we also have this fantastic new tool
Speaker 1: you can leave a voice message for us one hike, Yes,
Speaker 1: speak pipe dot com slash Let's red Table Fact. We
Speaker 1: are so so thankful for you for listening with us today.
Speaker 1: We want you to make sure you subscribe on I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app and please rate this podcast on Apple Podcast.
Speaker 1: We want to five Let's Meanly. We'll be back next
Speaker 1: week for another episode of Let's Red Table back I Thig.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Ellen
Speaker 1: Rocketson and Palin Jethrow. And thank you to our producer
Speaker 1: Kyla Knereu and our associate producer Yolanda Chow. And finally,
Speaker 1: thank you to our sound engineer, Stephanie Aguilar